getting posts in ground to last for decades without rot

All my stuff: permies.com/stuff - In order to discuss what we do to make posts last, we need to skip quickly over the techniques that we don't do. (we don't do this #1) Charring the end of a post works. I think it adds about 10% lifespan to the post, but it is a huge amount of work. (we don't do this #2) Mike Oehler would wrap the bottom of posts with several garbage bags - the idea is to keep the water out. But if the post contains any water (which it does) the bag would hold that water in and cause rot. On the other hand, Mike's original PSP house had no issues at 45 years old.
(we don't do this #3 #4 #5) I have a strong aversion to concrete for a lot of reasons, but the real reasons are that some concrete mixes are water tight - so they hold the moisture in. And some mixes are not water tight - so they will wick water to the wood.
(image of a concrete footer, concrete wrap and concrete collar)
Our four part recipe starts with a big, five foot eave. The water that lands five feet away typically never wicks more than a foot or two.
Part 2 augments the large eave - earthworks direct water away from the posts. So water that might be thinking of wicking toward the post is whisked downhill.
Part 3 - our post footer is big rocks with a bit of gravel on top. Water in the post can drain out, and any water that attempts to tickle the toes of the post can't get past the big rocks.
And finally, a gravel wrap. Water in the post gets out and water in the soil cannot get to the post.
Most post rot happens where damp soil meets the air. The damp soil is loaded with micro-organisms that need water and air to do their rot ballet. The part of the post that is simply exposed to dry air lasts the longest. This technique is an attempt to nearly eliminate moisture and soil in a natural way. No toxic gick. No concrete. No plastic. Just rocks and wood.
bernal brothers animation permies.com/bernal
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Carmen Suite no. 2 - 4. Chanson du Toréador (For recorder ensamble - Papalin) Creative Commons
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All my stuff: permies.com/stuff

[@paulwheaton]

I have been asked this so many times in the last six months or so I needed this video to point at to explain my position.

[@AlForte13]

Very Interesting Paul...and makes so much sense. What about stability...I would think concrete would not move but stones and rocks would? I am thinking of a gate post that has to be solid because it has a gate on the end of it moving all the time.

[@paulwheaton]

@@AlForte13 pack the gravel. Very deep hole.

[@AlForte13]

@@paulwheaton makes sense we have caliche not far under - I better get the jack hammer out then...LOL thanks.

[@priestesslucy3299]

@@AlForte13 I've heard you can soften caliche with vinegar, no experience to confirm

[@AlForte13]

@@priestesslucy3299 it makes sense we have caliche here I am going to have to try it. Vinegar is an acid

[@sspence65]

This method really works! We put up a pole barn 40 years ago this way, still standing. I'd add, use a rot-resistant wood, like cedar, or black locust (smaller diameter projects like fence posts).

[@retireddac]

We burned the bottom of the posts for our offgrid home in Maine. It is too new to tell how long it will last but fortunately we also went along with your advice on keeping water drainage away from them too. Great videos. I appreciate how and what you teach. Thank you.

[@tastyfrzz1]

I tried the concrete approach and yep. They rotted off.

[@ascendism_ai]

Very good info, thank you! I was going to do the Oehler method this fall, but you've changed my mind.

[@markdewey2249]

Since Permies is a forum, I came into this video from the newsletter thinking it was about forum posts. :) To be fair to myself, the newsletter only said, "what we do to make our posts not rot" (no mention of ground).

[@johnduffy6546]

I will be doing wooden posts much differently from now on. Thank you for sharing

[@jerrymcintire7902]

Totally excellent in its simplicity.

[@rockethair]

Simple yet so full of blisters XD

[@jerrymcintire7902]

@@rockethair ??? No blisters in an overhang or rocks and gravel.

[@trampledbygeese]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

[@serfbummer]

well done

[@maggiesalomonsson2564]

Really enjoyed this video. Simplified without sounding like you're talking to a toddler. But I have a question ⁉️ How do you handle building timber frame on top of bedrock?

[@tomkelly8827]

Looks good to me as long as it is cedar where I live in Ontario. Hemlock or Tamarack are good second fiddles to cedar but otherwise I would not bury the post.

[@zackfair3054]

What are your thoughts on using a Simpson Strong-Tie Common 6-in x 6-in Zmax Wood To Concrete (Retrofit) Base? You can pour the concrete and push the bolt into the wet concrete to catch the nut when putting the tie on. Water never touches the wood at all and goes right through the metal.

[@Permisiepl]

Great info, I only wonder what about fence posts that have to be on a flat land (no eve, limited possibilities for earthworks). Will rocks under and gravel around be enough?

[@Mark-xt8jp]

The post will still get wet from rain and snow melt, and possibly a high water table, but will drain better. If black locust wood is available, it is naturally rot resistant and would be a great option.

[@grovermartin6874]

@@Mark-xt8jp A neighbor replaced black locust steps that were 120 years old. The anchoring posts had shrunk in diameter where they were buried in the ground, but the whole stair was still stable and fully functional. We were all amazed.

[@lundgren234]

Thanks for this! What size gravel do you use around the posts in the ground?

[@paulwheaton]

Sometimes we make our own - so it's about a half inch to 2 inches. When we buy, we buy 3/4 inch.

[@HevelParadox-tt3mn]

This rocks

[@lis819]

Wow!

[@jwalkoviak]

I'm not sure how this would work for my situation. We are in heavy clay soils and also have high water tables. I've dug 3 foot deep holes before and the next day they are half full of water.

[@thelawdoc8029]

French drain!

[@benjaminbrewer2154]

You threw me for a loop. Mentally, I was thinking fencepost, but when you said 5' overhang. Mighty strange corner post /hbrace assembly. My only addition to you method of setting posts is to add tamping. You are putting a 8-14' lever arm in place. Compacting the gravel in 2" increments is good enough for a crane base so it should be good enough for a post frame construction.

[@paulwheaton]

The wofati design, the oehler design, the berm shed design and the holzer design all use posts in the ground for structures. And people seem to feel a powerful urge to inform us of "other" approaches that are largely based on fence posts - pretty fair, but ...

[@elye3701]

What about treatment of wood like borax/boric acid? We live in a brick and cement house but the roof tiles have timber framing. I heard they were boiled in diesel. What do you do concerning termites? Regular inspection?

[@paulwheaton]

I guess we don't have termites in montana, so i have never tried to deal with them.

[@terathelos9446]

I just saw my first colony of termites here in central Missouri after being out here in the woods for two years! They started swarming out of the GROUND like dandelion seeds in the wind, rather than out of a piece of dead wood. I've seen signs of them before, but so far not had issues with them attacking my red oak structures. Tones of boring beetles, though, one per tree, 95% of the time.

[@priestesslucy3299]

Termites only travel through damp soil. A sufficiently deep 'moat' of large stones would do the trick. (Off hand I would guess 18 inches but honestly I don't know)

[@elye3701]

@@priestesslucy3299 I had a piece on concrete and a wooden post resting on that. Both were above ground level and they built a tunnel from the earth to the post. I guess they still outsmart us.

[@teatimetraveller]

Another option is not burying the posts at all. Building on peers is ancient with many centuries old buildings still going strong. Prob not necessary for animal shelters/ barns etc but human housing etc it makes total sense.

[@_CRiT_hits_]

"piers" not "peers". That really confused me for a moment.

[@roberts628704]

This seems like a good approach, however in my experience, all the voids in the gravel wrap will eventually fill in with soil if it is seeing any water. Maybe a filter would help this? I would still prefer concrete since it probably holds less moisture than muddy rocks.

[@FamilyMadVentures]

A small concrete collar?

[@thelawdoc8029]

I am still not quite convinced that sleeving a post does not work. If the post is reasonably dry any remaining moisture should escape upwards. And, how much moisture are we talking about anyway that could cause rot? Can't be too much. I have read that sleeved posts are proving to last decades. I wish I could find a definitive answer when it comes to sleeving because that is the easist for me to do on my build.

[@myronplatte8354]

Or just make it out of black locust.

[@draftwood]

Black locust posts dating back well over 100 years are still found intact on the East coast.

[@brotherbreeze8351]

More than one University has dispelled the "charring the end of posts" myth. Check out any of the many Agri-business Universities if you want the science about how to do it right.