God & Human: The War Of Autonomy and Default Natures

We looked at Tim Stratton’s “EDD” argument, the idea that if you believe in “Exhaustive Divine Determinism” then you are left with “a god of deceit” who forces you to believe wrong things and therefore you can never know when you believe true things. We compared this silly philosophical trick with the Biblical perspective.
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#lies #truth #choice #free #personal #impersonal #decree

[@rmsmin]

James is right, there is one autonomous will in the Universe and it's God's.

[@jameshayes211]

If God unilaterally determines all contingencies, then He is the author of evil.

[@rmsmin]

@@jameshayes211 so what? God creates evil to achieve His own ends. Who are you to tell Him otherwise? Molinism doesn't provide an escape from that reality, for on it God chooses to actualize a world where evil occurs. The buck stops with the Lord and it is His will that acts freely, not ours.

[@jameshayes211]

@@rmsmin Thank you for owning the implications of your extrabiblical model. Calvinism: God is the author of evil. Non-Calvinism: Man is the author of evil.

[@jameshayes211]

@seanxl_ It is the inevitable logical outworking of your extrabiblical Calvinist model. Statements to the contrary are utterly incoherent.

[@ericbostrom1856]

@@jameshayes211 In the Non-Calvinist view, wouldn't that mean that God is the author of man who is the author of evil? So in a round about way, God is still the author of evil. Unless you believe there is some other force in the universe more powerful than God, I don't see how you get around God not authoring evil.

[@douglasmcnay644]

Stratton is showing how dangerous it is to reason from man up to God, imposing our ideas and our concepts onto Him. We are much better off reading God's revelation about Himself and then reasoning our way down to us and who we are in light of that.

[@Kanon-fq5fh]

Well put !

[@jameshayes211]

White is demonstrating how dangerous it is to regard the extrabiblical Calvinist model as having the same level of authority as the Scripture.

[@gch8810]

@@jameshayes211 Molinism is anything but Biblical.

[@jameshayes211]

@@gch8810 And, I regard Calvinism as unbiblical.

[@gch8810]

@@jameshayes211 Except Calvinists derive their theology from the Bible. You superimpose your's onto the Word of God.

[@BRNRDNCK]

The argument Dr Stratton used to open this video is hilariously contrived. Very creative and silly. Well done, Dr Stratton.

[@philblagden]

The Molinist god is a God that intends things that he knows are impossible. He knows all the consequences of creating the feasible world but refuses to take responsibility for all the consequences and washes his hands of any responsibility, even though He knew from the outset what would happen in every situation and went ahead and created the feasible world anyway.

[@tylerbuckner3750]

The idea of reading the genealogies with the paradigm, “Anyone of these people could’ve broken the bloodline of Christ if they chose to with their free will” is beyond absurd.

[@Saratogan]

"See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the teaching of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ."

[@jameshayes211]

Thank you for the warning against the extrabiblical Calvinist tradition, which many confuse for the pure and infallible teaching of God's prophets and apostles.

[@Saratogan]

@@jameshayes211, Yeah, that would be it. Molinism is and Bill Craig says that it is extrabiblical philosophy which he says is "consistent with Scripture" although he admits that it is not found in Scripture. BTW, the "warning" as you say, is not my warning. It is the apostle Paul's warning from Colossians 2:8. φιλοσοφία the Greek from which we get philosophy is only used once in the Bible and that in this verse from Colossians.

[@jameshayes211]

@@Saratogan I know Scripture when I see it. Calvinism ain't it.

[@Saratogan]

@@jameshayes211, I don't find John Calvin's name in Holy Scripture either. However, I do find the following. Perhaps we should all learn what Job learned: "I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained." Or what Nebuchadnezzar learned: "...all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" and "...the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will even the lowest of men." Or what Solomon learned: "The king’s heart in the hand of Jehovah is as brooks of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." There are so many more. However, the call still goes out "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house." BTW, Merry Christmas! Peace on earth; good will toward men.

[@jameshayes211]

@@Saratogan "I know that thou canst do all things" But, as a Calvinist, you deny that God can enable a sinful man to respond faithfully without irresistibly effecting his salvation.

[@Kenneth-nVA]

Stratton has painted a “ robot “ picture not JW. Secondly, if WLC is an “ expert “ in all those categories, then the church is doomed!

[@jameshayes211]

A robot is unilaterally programmed by its designer to act exactly as its designer authors. On the Calvinist model, creatures are unilaterally determined by God to act exactly as He authors.

[@euaggelion03]

"You're going to have to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and answer for that kind of philosophical silliness." Mic drop...

[@ReformedOudeis]

This was incredibly powerful, encouraging, and challenging all at the same time. Thanks so much for sharing this with everyone!

[@marchosch3876]

This is what happens when you turn the faith into a never-ending intellectual and philosophical exercise. The Bible is inerrant and infallible so long as you can lay your philosophical standards of reasoning on top of it.

[@SteveWV]

The earth and creation exist by the Word of God by his divine decree. All of its moving parts are ordered of God

[@ManassehJones]

Ok. So you mean to tell me that unless the "experts" in philosophy can't understand the will of God then it simply can't be true? Humm. They desire to sit on the throne in judgment of God's will? Humm. Didn't someone else say that in Isaiah Chapter 14?

[@wojak91]

Amen, preach that truth!! Salvation belongs to our God.

[@jameshayes211]

And, on your extrabiblical Calvinist model, God has unilaterally determined men to choose hell, such that He is as responsible for damnation as He is for salvation.

[@redbearwarrior4859]

Great point Dr. White! Libertarian Free Will does not let Molinism escape the God of deception objection. Human liars and deceivers are not taking away their victims free will. So a God can also deceive someone without taking away their free will.

[@FabledNarrative]

First 11 seconds... "Exegesis is vital. But if one's exegesis of the original Greek leads one to the conclusion..." Hard stop. Exegeting the flow of argumentation and main idea consistently throughout the word of God leads to a conclusion...that you don't like? You either start with God's word being infallible OR everything is a temporary, bio-chemical, subjective, reactionary opinion. Because by WHOM's authority do you say God is anything else than what He said He is and does? The more I exegete the text, the more Calvinistic I become. Else I would be making an IDOL out of God, because who He declares Himself to be...I just don't like. It's either "God's Word" or "It's whatever". Food for thought.

[@Kenneth-nVA]

I’ve stated this on a plethora of videos and I’m simplify it here: God is sovereign! In His providencial plan, God causes ( think Flood) and allows ( think cross) for His divine purpose(s) alone! In mans total depravity ( Ephesians 1/2) man in his natural falleness has “ limited “ freewill! This is where the problem lies…God allows for this. God didn’t make or force the men to throw Jonah overboard; they by nature did what they do! Did the sovereign God of the universe know… you bet! He’s omniscient, right? Did God provide for His plan/purpose a great fish? You bet! Did God know that David would be aroused by Bathsheba? You answer that because your answer will define your understanding of Almighty God! God did know and God DID NOT author the evil BUT allowed it!

[@Kanon-fq5fh]

Well put !

[@Zaloomination]

Im talking about reformed theology and my sister asked me why God had to harden pharaoh's heart if it was already reprobate...did God have to make him extra evil? How would you respond?

[@Kanon-fq5fh]

I know this question wasn’t meant for me but I will give you my thought on that anyway ! A reprobate person has limited free-will - In Pharaoh’s case , his heart was harden by YHWH for the display of Gods power to the people of Israel and at the same punishing Egypt ! It’s not like Pharaoh wanted to submit himself to God . He wouldn’t But God hardened Pharoahs heart in order to Not let the people go

[@Zaloomination]

@@Kanon-fq5fh thank you for your answer! Good points. Reprobate pharaoh might have let the people go - not out of repentance but out of prudence, but Yahweh raised him up so that His name would be known, to assert His dominion and supremacy over all Egypt's gods.

[@lscott9263]

Philosophical silliness! 😄 Brother white took the Philosophical silly conundrum and put it under subjection to the Word of God! This is why reformed theology stands; for it stands upon the unchanging truth of God's word.

[@angelodevelay6727]

Thank you for your work brother James!!

[@argerm57]

Dr. White stole my line.😊 I have been saying for years that there is only one sovereign will in the universe, and it's God's. I don't understand everything about this very deep and mysterious subject, but mankind is not sovereign. That's not what the Bible teaches. God is sovereign. He is the creator; we are His creatures. Our wills do not supersede His own.

[@agentclol]

What’s funny about of epistemic argument against Calvinism is that it is based on their low view of what divine determinism contains. From their view looking at us, It couldn’t possibly be that the will of humans are reasons responsive, which would solve the entire objection.

[@hondotheology]

stratton hurts my brain. please pray for me

[@jameshayes211]

Stop trying to defend Pope Calvin's unbiblical "author of evil" theology. Your brain will hurt less.

[@hondotheology]

@@jameshayes211 keep trying james. i'm almost disregarding scripture and soon i'll be building theology based on what makes me feel good! please pray!

[@jameshayes211]

@@hondotheology Oh, no! It sounds like you may be confusing Calvin's word for God's Word. The former is errant and fallible; the latter is inerrant and infallible. Don't disregard God's Word.

[@shylock5151]

Calvinism= God declares the end from the beginning. Molenism= God adjusts the end based on what happens as the beginning unfolds.

[@wadhahhammadi7266]

Putting some body in some circumstances doesn't mean they r forcrd to do some thing, for example God knows that if he put u and me in a certain crossroad u will go left and i right, so why won't we be obliged to take the same direction? Simply because we are not forced to do so, so God only knows what we will chose. If God wants he can force us or persuade us to take the same direction, but what he did chose to do? He gave us the choice. But I think he interferes some time to chose a road out of his wisdom. But in the end, God knows best.

[@clintb5397]

Let me say up front that the topic of molinism fly's right over my head. However in regards to the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, (Genesis 2:9) who is the author? I would say God. If so, does it have any relevance to the topic?

[@cultxpt]

It's kinda fun watching humans try to explain God.

[@John-hw5zp]

Do they not have self awareness

[@jameshayes211]

I don't think so. I've yet to meet a Calvinist who seems to be willing to honestly own the implications of his extrabiblical model.

[@kbolin10]

Clap trap? That’s a new one. I like it.

[@davidemme2344]

Like when Jesus prayed to The Father, "Not as I will but you will."

[@christopheravery9585]

Understand that everything that Dr. White says God does regarding bringing him to his word. Leading him thru experiences that cause him to grow in Christ. There is someone else reading the same verses and rejecting the truth found in them. They are goin through the same experience and come out on the other side hating God. Both Dr. White and this other person reactions and their application to their life was ordained by God. Their reactions could not have been otherwise. That is why Dr. Stratton uses the term deity of deception.

[@redbearwarrior4859]

2 Th 2:11And for this cause Elohim shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 1 Kings 22:22 "YHWH said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And YHWH said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’" Does Dr. Stratton really deny that YHWH causes people to be deceived? These passages leave little to no room for denying that. Now obviously YHWH is not directly lying. For it is written "Elohim, that cannot lie" Tit 1:2. But YHWH does indirectly lead men into believing lies. And of course He has justifying moral reasons for doing so. But I'm not sure that the Molinist has the high ground here. After all on Dr Stratton's version of Molinism people believe lies because YHWH determines the person's nature (that is YHWH determines that a person's nature is capable of being deceived) and then YHWH puts that person into a situation knowing that they will be deceived. If that's not causing people to believe a lie then I don't know what is.

[@Kanon-fq5fh]

You know - technical terms will take you nowhere ! Defend your faith !

[@dwaynejohnson4662]

@455 just like the apostle paul says he was chosen in his mothers swomb, however why so many years in spiritual deception? he was decreed to see christ on the road to damascus and no other way. why would god decree luther to be a catholic instead of a protestant but for gods glory and luthers good. he has a plan thats unhindered especially by mans so-called free will. so the arminiuans have an impotent god because of mans freewill?

[@pinknoise365]

It shows much how Leighton fanboys aren’t crowding the comment section. They’re mostly Open Theists who could care less about Molinism. It’s such a farce to place Molinists as some kind of spokesmen for Provisionism.

[@christopheravery9585]

Dr. Stratton’s under cutting argument is once again ignored. Dr. White instead goes on a rant employing at least 3 different logical fallacies. The runs off to subjects no Christian would disagree with then concludes with illustrations based on feelings. This is what ideological possession looks like. If we are willing to suspend our logical thought processes to continue to hold our theology. We are doing exactly what are the cults do.

[@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104]

wonder if tim holds some false beliefs?

[@cantsay5141]

Maybe the god of the Bible isn’t the god he (dr. Stran) wants.

[@hondotheology]

lol @ stratton. the presumed conclusion drives the exegesis! disregard scripture!

[@jameshayes211]

lol @ white. his assumed extrabiblical Calvinist model commands his exegesis of Scripture.

[@user-kh1vo2fc6s]

20:00 question is: Why bother to evoke someone to repent in his wrong views and say that he will stand before Jesus and so on, if all his wrong ideas were predestined by God Himself?

[@jameshayes211]

Well said. And, especially if that person, on the Calvinist model, cannot repent because God is withholding an effectual call and irresistible grace from him.

[@spartacusantipas4580]

@@jameshayes211 You guys are still spiritual blind and hate God's word. We call EVERYONE to repentance because we are Commanded by the LORD to do so. The results belong to GOD. We defend what is correct and true because we are commanded to do so. The individualized results belong to GOD for the results are HIS WORK and HIS GLORY. Get a grip and stop hating GOD'S sovereign independent Will ! Do what your commanded and let GOD deal with the results. Stop worshiping the Creature rather than the Creator!

[@jameshayes211]

@@spartacusantipas4580 Calvinism is the word of a man named Calvin, not God.

[@chrissymonds1845]

@@jameshayes211 Molinism is the word of a man, not God. God may have given man logic but according to God's word man's logic and philosophy is flawed because we have a sinful nature. Calvinism defines the anthropology of man correctly Molinism does not.

[@jameshayes211]

@@chrissymonds1845 Calvinism is not God-breathed. The Scripture is God-breathed.

[@johnpauladlawan9753]

Stratton is lost

[@jameshayes211]

Careful. You will be judged by that standard according to which you judge another (cf. Matt 7:2).

[@alt-monarchist]

James....why not just stop resisting the teaching of the Church??? Why do you have to make up your own doctrines??? The ORTHODOX Church is the only true Church

[@thisiswhathappened9507]

Who is The Orthodox Church and how do you know it is the only true church..??