God punishes those who divide His land (Joel 3:2) | Christian Zionism | Dispensationalism

This video deals with the topic of Christian Zionism and addresses Joel 3:2 which draws attention to the perpetual sacredness of the land of Israel and the punishment God will inflict on those who seek to divide up His land

[@JaguerRhye]

Supposedly, there were over 600 people that subbed to me because of this video and the video has just 18 Likes. I guess most of these new subs are bots? Any one have any ideas? Is this just a new thing where people will sub to a channel and not Like the video that that attracted them to the channel? I'm confused.

[@alangalloway8700]

Thank you for this timely commentary. In the past two weeks I’ve been struck by the significance of Joel 3 and the judgement of gentile nations, “on account of My people, My heritage Israel,” along with Matthew 25 and the separation of sheep from goats based on this judgement. Instead of this subject being a mere difference of opinion regarding eschatology it is instead a foundational issue. Since God determines our spiritual status (whether we are saved or unsaved) based on our fruit or lack of fruit demonstrated in whether or not we support his people and heritage, Israel.. This is a vastly (eternally) more important subject than most Christians think. I have a friend who I need to speak to again and discuss this further as being an essential issue rather than non-essential (to whom I initially agreed it was non-essential). Thank you again and I admire your reasoned, thoughtful, and scriptural rebuttal in the @Feechlamana534 thread.

[@JaguerRhye]

Hi Alan, Thank you for watching and for leaving a thoughtful comment. Yes, this is a very important issue and one that I don't think many christians take very seriously. I actually plan to make a video on the judgement on Matt 25 as it helps draw attention to the fate of those who neglect Israel during the tribulation. Namely, eternal destruction. Feel free to let me know if there are any other passages you would like me to address on this Zionism issue. Thank you again.

[@alangalloway8700]

@@JaguerRhye YW. I’ll be looking forward to your Matt 25 video.

[@JaguerRhye]

@@alangalloway8700 Sure Alan. Hopefully, it will be out this weekend. I was wondering if you get notified when I upload new Shorts and videos? I understand one needs to select the Bell icon near the Subscribe button for that to happen.

[@alangalloway8700]

@@JaguerRhyeoh good, looking forward to it. Yes, I’m subscribed.

[@FelixLaManna]

Christians definitiely should NOT be "zionists". Dispensationalists like this guy, like to categorise Old Testament covenants, in particular, into two categories: One, they will call conditional, and the other they will call unconditional. Naturally, they will pick for instance the covenant with Moses as a conditional covenant because of the stress of the law there, and then they will pick the covenant of Abraham and they will call it an unconditional covenant. When the Dispensationalist sees the so-called “unconditional” (which they are not) promises made to Abraham, concerning a specific plot of land to be given to Abraham’s offspring to possess forever they accuse Reformed Covenant Theology of implying that God has cast off Israel and replaced her with the Church, and that we are ignoring these “forever” promises, and turning them into a spiritual pseudo-promise so we can say they are fulfilled. To a Dispensationalist it is as simple as this: Abraham’s descendants haven’t possessed this land, so the fulfillment must still be expected in the future. However, this is unequivocally false. And of course he uses the Dispensational slur of “Replacement Theology” because he doesnt understand "Covenant Theology". Covenant Theology is in fact “Fulfilment Theology” - Scripture Itself declares that the promise of the land to Old Testament Israel was fulfilled by God: _“So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.”_ (Joshua 21:43-45) _“So the descendants went in and possessed the land, and you subdued before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gave them into their hand, with their kings and the peoples of the land, that they might do with them as they would. And they captured fortified cities and a rich land and took possession of houses full of all good things, cisterns already hewn, vineyards, olive orchards, and fruit trees in abundance. So they ate and were filled and became fat and delighted themselves in your great goodness."_ (Nehemiah 9:24-25). _“Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant.”_ (1 Kings 8:56) Isaiah concludes his book with the promise of “new heavens” and a “new earth” (64:17, 66:22). The glorious restoration of Israel to their land is ultimately fulfilled in the eternal possession of the Heavenly Jerusalem, and the entire recreated, new heavens and earth by God’s people. And that possession and enjoyment of the land will endure forever. And redeemed Jews certainly will be enjoying that land along with the Church. See also 1 Kings 4:20-21 “Judah and Israel were as many as the sand by the sea. They ate and drank and were happy. Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.” The inspired author of 1 Kings unequivocally claims here that the promises concerning Abraham’s seed being as numerous as the sand of the sea, have been fulfilled. He sets forth the exact dimensions of the land promised in Gen. 15, as being now inhabited and ruled over by Solomon. Of course, later in 1 Kings 8:56, Solomon will actually declare that all the promises have been fulfilled. So clearly, God declares through inspired authors of Scripture, that the Israelites did indeed possess the land already and His promise was fulfilled to them to the greater Glory of His Name.

[@JaguerRhye]

Hi Feechlamana, Thanks for commenting. I read through what you wrote but I noticed you didn’t address the main thrust of my video which in regard to Joel 3:2. What are your thoughts on the land that God speaks of in that text? In regard to some of your other comments… “And of course he uses the Dispensational slur of “Replacement Theology” because he doesnt understand "Covenant Theology” You may claim its a slur, but replacement theology is generally considered another term for supersessionism. I even heard a pastor (who seems to agree with your overall position) during a debate against a dispensationalist, use "replacement theology" to describe his position and asserting that it better explains the Biblical data (or something to that extent). But for the sake of this argument, I will give up using "replacement theology" since I believe its more of a semantic issue and relatively unimportant in evaluating the Biblical validity of the underlying concept it communicates which you would rather label as "fulfillment theology." Yes, it is true that passages in Joshua indicate that God fulfilled promises he made to Abraham in that the people of Israel did inhabit the land. But the nature of the promise was that the land would be an *everlasting” possession: Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. I realize that the Hebrew word for “everlasting” can mean eternal, it can also just refer to a long period of time. However, in this particular passage, it carries the idea of perpetual or eternal or at least until the end of the messianic age which is still future. This is made clear by such texts as those in Ezek 37:24-25 "And DAVID My servant shall be KING over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell IN THE LAND that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant DAVID shall be their PRINCE for ever" (Ezekiel 37:24-25). Note how it speaks of David (which I believe is the resurrected David who will be a king over Israel but still a prince as he will be under the King Jesus) reigning over the people of Israel and the people of Israel are an obedient people who dwell *in the land* that God gave to Jacob. They are said to dwell there *forever*. Do you believe this promise in Ezekiel has been fulfilled yet? I would contend no since Israel is still a largely disobedient people and neither Christ nor a resurrected David is reigning over them. Its because of promises like this one in Ezekiel that we know God would have to one day regather Israel back to the Holy Land which is precisely what he has done and that he declared he would do in such texts as Ez 36:24-27 "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” Note how this text implies God would regather the jews from the nations and *then* sprinkle clean water upon them, give them a new heart and spirit which signifies their eventual conversion to Christ. This harmonizes with the historical fact and miracle of the jews returning to the land largely in unbelief and they became a nation again in 1948. But eventually God will eventually cleanse the nation, give the people new hearts and a new spirit and they will be an obedient people under God. And where will all these regenerate jews be dwelling? The very same *land* that God promised to the patriarchs. For Ez 36:28 states about this very same people“And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Do you believe this promise has been fulfilled already? I hope you can see how these texts support my claim that the land of Israel was given as a perpetual possession and there is no possibility the *ultimate* fulfillment of this promise to the patriarchs was during the time of Joshua. When we consider the words of the prophets and other passages, it is clear that the nature of the promise to Abraham entails a regenerate people of Israel living under Christ in the land and that simply has not happened yet. “Isaiah concludes his book with the promise of “new heavens” and a “new earth” (64:17, 66:22). The glorious restoration of Israel to their land is ultimately fulfilled in the eternal possession of the Heavenly Jerusalem” I’m not sure what text you are referring to by 64:17 as there is no Isaiah 64:17. But yes, Isaiah 66:22 speaks of a new heaven and new earth which doesn’t contradict my position at all since God will indeed renovate the created order in preparation for the messianic age of Jesus reigning on the earth from Jerusalem. For example, people will live much longer, there will harmony among the animals, the sun will shine brighter etc. But this isn’t referring to the eternal state since Isaiah describes conditions / activities that will take place during this messianic age that conflict with realities of the eternal state. For example, consider Isaiah 66:19 "And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles." Note how this passage speaks of gentiles which have not heard about God’s fame, nor seen his glory and they are those who appear to be in need of having God’s glory declared to them. Would this apply to anyone in the eternal state? Of course not since everyone who lives in the eternal state has been redeemed and knows Christ’s fame, and has seen his glory and they are not ignorant of his glory. However, in the millennial kingdom, there will be great numbers of gentiles who are the offspring of those believing gentiles who survived the tribulation who will need to hear about Christ and need to get saved. Consider Isaiah 65:20 which speaks of the prolonged life people will enjoy, but note how the text indicates there will still be death. Does this harmonize with the eternal state where they will be no death? "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." You had written: “Scripture Itself declares that the promise of the land to Old Testament Israel was fulfilled by God:” But then you state: " The glorious restoration of Israel to their land is ultimately fulfilled in the eternal possession of the Heavenly Jerusalem, and the entire recreated, new heavens and earth by God’s people” So are you saying that Israel inhabiting the land as recorded by Joshua was not the ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises to the patriarchs?

[@FelixLaManna]

@@JaguerRhye Firstly it is simply not possible to identify ‘Israel’ in the OT with ‘Israel’ the modern nation-state. Secondly, contrary to one dimensional claims by zionists about promise and inheritance, the OT text actually has multiple significance, and its theological meaning always eclipses its geographical significance. For example, according to Hebrews 11:10, 13-16 even Abraham himself was looking beyond a simple parcel of land (not being satisfied with a mere earthly inheritance) to the glorious promise of a heavenly city (heavenly Jerusalem). The New Testament interprets the Old, not the other way around. Thirdly, in Genesis 12 God swears/promises to Abraham that He will give his descendants a land and that He will bless the whole world through his seed. Yet at Mount Sinai, the people swear an oath to keep God’s law (“All this we will do”), and this is the condition not for _"ENTERING"_ God’s typological land of rest (since that was already a gift), but for _"REMAINING"_ in the land and securing God’s blessing (“that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you”). He stipulated that their possession of the land was dependent on their obedience. Not only is the Abrahamic Covenant conditional on its face, it must be conditional, otherwise, God could not have expelled them from the Land for their neglect of His grace and their sin. To "remain" in the land, God called the Israelites to practice and love the Law, which meant a good-faith effort to obey His will, repentance for sin, and a recognition of their inability in themselves to be holy (Isa. 66:1-2). If the pagan Canaanites’ failure to honor God or give thanks to Him eventually led to their being removed from the land, how could the Lord not exile the Israelites for violating the oracles revealed uniquely to them? Flagrant, unrepentant wickedness that clearly denies God’s way - incest, homosexual acts, child sacrifice, and bestiality - caused the Canaanites to lose their land, and the Israelites would meet the same fate if they followed suit (Lev. 18).

[@JaguerRhye]

@@FelixLaManna Hi Feechlamana, What are your thoughts on Joel 3:2 in regard to the land that God will judge the nations for? To address some of your other points: “Firstly it is simply not possible to identify ‘Israel’ in the OT with ‘Israel’ the modern nation-state. “ That is not true since DNA studies have confirmed that jews in Israel have the same kind of DNA as ancient Israelies: www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2023-10-09/ty-article/in-first-archaeologists-extract-dna-of-ancient-israelites/0000018b-138a-d2fc-a59f-d39b21fd0000?fbclid=IwAR0Fm8zah8wGmcJE9Okc-SXoZs-HxbB6u3HRkPcH7RKh8Re9TthKcHUDUIE “Not only is the Abrahamic Covenant conditional on its face, it must be conditional, otherwise, God could not have expelled them from the Land for their neglect of His grace and their sin.” The Abrahamic covenant of Abraham owning the land is revealed to be unconditional as the ritual in Gen 15:17 makes clear. “Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. We read in Gen 15:17 of what appears to be a representation of God walking between the 2 pieces of the sacrifice. This walking through the sacrifices was a near eastern custom that entailed people ratifying a covenant by means of them walking through the pieces of a sacrifices together. The fact that they walked between them implied that *both* parties were required to keep the conditions of the covenant. However, when it comes to the ratification of the covenant God made with Abraham we don’t see God and Abraham walking together at all. Instead, we see *only* God moving through the pieces. Abraham is found being in a deep sleep which emphasizes how oblivious he was to what God would do. The implication of this ritual is that the covenant God made with Abraham was not dependent on his obedience at all. Instead, God is obligating himself to keep the covenant and fulfill it. It depends wholly upon him his character and action. I would agree that to remain in and enjoy the land was conditioned on obedience. But the actual ownership of the land was not conditioned on obedience. If parents give their child a bicycle, the bike belongs to the child. Of course, if the child is sufficiently disobedient, the parents have the right to remove the child’s right to *enjoy* and *use* the bike. But even though the child might not be free to enjoy the bike, the bike *still* belongs to the child. Likewise, God gave Israel the land unconditionally so that it belongs to them. But the fact that God might scatter them from the land so they can’t enjoy it doesn’t change the fact that the land still belongs to them. The fact that the land still belongs to Israel, despite their disobedience, is demonstrated by texts such Ez 36:24-27 which I previously sited which speaks of God gathering an unregenerate people of Israel into the holy land. He tells them “into your own land”. Its just that after they are bought back to the land, they will at some point become born again which harmonizes with Paul's words in Rome 11 about how all Israel shall be saved. etc So Israel will in fact remain in the land forever as they will be an obedient people as the texts makes clear. Lastly, what are your thoughts on the passages Isaiah 65:20 and 66:19 I sited which refute the idea that Isaiah was speaking of the eternal state?

[@FelixLaManna]

@@JaguerRhye Just for the avoidance of doubt we are talking about the same Israel that made it unlawful for its citizens to trace their ancestors DNA right?

[@JaguerRhye]

@@FelixLaManna Yes, I'm referring to the same Israel that have issues with its citizens using such tests as the tests are not always fully reliable. For example, I understand that identical twins submitted material to one company and they received conflicting results. Either way, Israel has required certain people to receive DNA tests to prove they are jewish in order for them to qualify for Law of Return benefits. Please see this Harvard article below: dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/29408321/5034383.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y So its not as though they are opposed to all DNA testing. I believe they just want to be sure the company is reliable. Anyway, what are your thoughts on Joel 3:2 in regard to the land that God will judge the nations for? Also, what are your thoughts on the passages Isaiah 65:20 and 66:19 I sited which call into question the idea that Isaiah was speaking of the eternal state in the text you sited?