Golden Demon Drama is BACK | S5E21

[@trovarion]

There is always going to be drama at golden demon. A big part of it is GWs fault, but another is the participants, especially, but not limited to, new participants having wild expectations - and this will never change because there is always going to be new and aspiring painters - that will never be met by GW since it is just a marketing event and nothing else. And people have to get this into their heads. It's also always going to be a lottery as far as the consistency goes in ALL aspects, especially the way it is set up now, but it has been like that since 20 years and we should know that by now. Participate if you want to, but don't expect more than it is and especially don't get upset afterwards, it's not a good look. It's GW, they are so big, the left hand doesn't know what the right does, they make more than half a billion pound in revenue per year, too big to fail, they will never care. It's not amazing how they treat Golden Demon, but painters also need to accept it for what it is and not get upset too much, because c'mon...you know what you sign up for.

[@mekko1413]

I agree with you main point in that participants need to accept it for what it is and not what they want it to be. How ever GW is not too big to fail. They are actually a very tiny company even with in the niche of gaming market which is a part of the entertainment market. So they are niche with in a niche.

[@jac8awol]

Perfectly said. I love the GD crybabies because we see it every year and they always think it won't happen to them until it does, and then suddenly they're surprised 😂

[@Heimdall1987]

You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about, because you don’t go to GD. The level of shitshow that Essen was has never been like that in the past. With the ‘Eavy Metal judging there were barely no controversies, it is only when they decided to not have painters as judges that it all went downhill.

[@trovarion]

@@Heimdall1987 you clearly have no idea what you are talking about because i went to golden demons on and off for 20 years and I followed every single one I did not attend during that timespan. There was always drama, GW higher ups never cared about the people attending, there was always weird decissions, there was always people expecting more from it than it can offer. Yes, it had a good run when the creative team fought tooth and nail for it and to make it more transparent, consistent and creative friendly, but that doesn't change the other facts. Essen was not more of a shitshow than some of the others in the 2010s when the industry was changing and now it is changing again and whoever is calling the shots wants to crack down on things that endangers GWs monopoly and "we are the hobby, fy" is moving to the forefront again. To noone's suprise that has been following the competition more than a few years...

[@Heimdall1987]

@@trovarion funny, because I’ve been going to GD since the 90s when Mike McVey was in charge, and even though naturally there have always been bummed people and some drama, most certainly the amount of weird decisions have never been nowhere near what they’re now. I don’t think you quite realise how bad it was at Essen, and “following” GD by looking at some videos and seeing some pictures on insta, just doesn’t convey the true gravity of the disaster. Judges for sure have made bad calls in all editions in the past, but at least there was a general consensus that the judges were qualified to do the job. We now have a marketing guy and a rules writer judging top notch painting that they don’t understand, so it’s become a lottery like it never was before. You saying it’s always been the same, clearly shows that you don’t grasp the context from your little ivory tower. I didn’t enter btw, so it’s not like I’m angry that I didn’t win. But having non painters judge really was an absolute calamity. And one last comment, people tend to focus on the trophies, of which there’s only 3, but the commended/finalist/notable levels are an open format (like SMC etc), wherever as many deserving pieces should be getting those respective awards. In the 2010s Richard Gray, Sten Frodin, or Arnau Lazaro may not have won a demon, but would certainly not have won a “notable” card like they’re complete beginners.

[@Tsotanga2]

This podcast is so underrated. I just want you guys to know I appreciate you both immensely.

[@grimoirworkshop6623]

The true synergy when the whole is much greater than the sum of parts!

[@ItsYoji]

Just as I sit down to paint on my day off, looking for something to listen to in the background, a new TUP episode appears. Phenomenal timing.

[@trovarion]

it's wild for me to see you in this space, having watched your Path of Exile content a lot back in the day haha.

[@chrish1645]

They should put out a book for each Golden Demon with well photographed images of the models. They charge $60 a codex/battletome, I could definitely see them charging that or even $75 if the book was really nicely put together.

[@tommyswarvideo]

I've spent 20 years at various painting competitions across Europe. There is drama at every single one, it's not unique to GD by any means. I've seen painters throw their entries on the floor and smash them because they didn't win the award they thought they deserved. Painters will get salty, KZbin influencers will make drama to farm views, it's the way of the world.

[@nurglematthew893]

@Miniac wore a Miniac hoodie on a podcast yesterday, shoutout Scott, killin it. Shoutout Ninjon. Also killin it. Both sweethearts

[@dkraytsberg91]

The best painters in the industry spending 100s of hours on essentially commision pieces that show off your product in the most favorable light is worth a lot. Its marketing for the hobby, and keeps the community invested in its coolness. I hope GW understands this, and doesnt just view golden demon from a P&L perspective.

[@KingPuuChuu]

Scott, if you wanna get into Kung Fu films, you gotta start with Shaw Brothers films. Master Killer 5 Deadly Venoms 5 Elements Ninjas (ninjas with elemental powers) The Flying Guillotine 1& 2 (it's exactly what you think it is) and of course, the GOAT: 36 Chambers of Shaolin

[@terrencemiltner1005]

I'm never entering Golden Demon. But I agree there should be a nominal entry fee, comparable to a tournament. Pay $10-$20 to enter. Then less per entry to enter a second or third piece. Free entries for Youngblood and for First Time entry (or a discount). First time can be either any GD or at a certain event.

[@Ulfhrim]

Jon's talk about fire season, fire wood, the rotation before splitting, and that heavy breath at the end couldn't have related more to me as Montana native. You, sir just went to the top of my favorite creator list and a patron sub.

[@shawnhilliard]

In regards to your opening discussion on getting people to use their "non-combat" skills, a handful of board games incorporate reputation tracks that are influenced by the nature of actions taken by each player. Maybe you can do something like that where they are rewarded in some way for choosing non-combat tactics to navigate situations where the impulse is to hack and slash your way through.

[@temurkhamidov1860]

This podcast makes the mondays so much more bearable. Thank you! Amazing episode.

[@really_wheeler]

HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS EXISTED!!! Love the podcast guys!

[@justincausey3000]

Id be stoked that they even displayed my mini and took photos.

[@justincausey3000]

GD reminds me of work. Decentralized event with no guidance.

[@RatKing9913]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in another comment but The third bullet point in the entry guidelines for golden demon is "Conversions and scratch-built entries are allowed as long as they are in scale and set thematically within one of the Warhammer worlds or universes. This does not extend to entries set in the Middle-earth™ setting." There's an FAQ at the bottom of the document that lines it out even more explicitly. Dude didn't follow the rules and got disqualified. No he was told differently by somebody. That's a different story but honestly it's pretty cut and dry.

[@BruceBabcock-n4y]

WTF? There should be a judging panel for each category, by the sound of things. Two or three judges per category and they might even finish relatively quickly and be able to give feedback.

[@boleth]

I greatly appreciated the quantity of Big Lebowski references this episode. They really tied the podcast together.

[@donaldkhogan]

TBF Miniac, the 4 or so martial arts movies you mentioned are EXTREMELY high on the list of al time bests.

[@lionheartlee4719]

I run a family owned pizza shop in Ohio. We routinely win awards and would love to feed you guys next year.

[@Wijkert]

I have tried different ways of painting and have had the best results the way Ben paints: sketching with airbrush/brush first, then glazing with transparent paints and finally refining with opaque paints.

[@sinisterplank3113]

The preamble really spoke to me. I spent decades churning in an excessively competitive career, and the one thing above all I took away from it when I left, was to narrow my circle of influence. I could not influence the performance of my competitors, I could only influence my own performance, I realigned to only compete with myself, if I was happy with my output in relation to my own past output, it does jot matter what anyone else does.

[@EddieDuncan-do1mb]

The stickers (as told by a judge in 2018) mean 1. Its been photographed, 2. its qualified as a finalist (which you will get a pin) and 3. the model has stood out for a reason for closer looks. Finalist pins, commended entry cards have been going for quite a few years, I know its been going since 2018 as I got a commended card and a Demon that year.

[@alexanderuth3989]

Would love to see a dune themed Haqislam team by Scott 🎉

[@thorstenmeuter8112]

In my youth (80-90) I played the SW RPG from West End Games (D6-System), it was pretty awesome and I still have all the stuff. It was my second approach on RPG and i still love.

[@nathand6467]

Star Wars RPG: In Star Wars, there are times when two force users are having a duel, but thats not as common. Most fights occur while something else is going on. Some kind of escape, someone has to start the star ship while blaster fire is going off, someone is hacking files during a fight, theres a hostage/bystander they're trying not to get killed, the environment is collapsing around them, or like the arena fight where monsters are doing their own thing. All of these are fight encounters where some characters who are not combat focused can participate in meaningful ways, show off other skills. Pilot skills to start the ship, mechanic skills to open or close the retractable bridge, hacking skills to shut down the tractor beam or force field, negotiation skills to get a third party onto your side,.. I dunno the skills in the game, but the Star Wars movies and shows, really seldom have the two forces just lined up and shooting at one another.

[@KelRiever]

Has it been said? Yo, dude, it is The FORCE. It doesn't matter if you get caught. Can you imagine? Finding out Yoda is really a mass murderer, but, you know, nobody ever SAW him do it... XD Not SWU but very funny :)

[@joeorme6870]

Do you ever think about how the seasons might effect you performance on KZbin? For example I know a lot of my friends and I do more gaming/painting/hobbying and consume more content about that in these colder months than in the Spring or Summer when we are more focused on going to places, or just doing stuff outside.

[@garyjenson1326]

Yeah sponsored! Atta boy, boys.

[@brandondollar]

Some great martial arts movies are: "Kung Fu Hustle" and "Hero". Also, when I was a kid, I loved "American Ninja"

[@elliespohr]

Kung Pow Enter The Fist

[@sushimandaddi]

You NEED to watch kung fu hustle and master of the flying guillotine. Especially hustle nods to a lot of the genre and kung fu styles and stars some actual masters, then obviously need to watch the big Bruce Lee movies as well

[@DefectiveDice]

I recently posted an interview with the CEO of Mantic with some new info about Halo Flashpoint. Really proud of it, but its hovering at around a 4/10. Feels bad lolol so I know what you guys mean

[@RecklessFables]

Lack of transparency in a subjective competition is almost always due to back-end chicanery, favoritism, etc.

[@Vorpal_Wit]

1:17:00 Its much worse than that. Hypothetically, if you have 100 entries into a category, and you divide them into 5 piles of 20, and then have a Soviet style quota that mandates half of each pile must be cut, what happens when 17 of the best entries in the category land in one pile together? It means at least 3 of the "best entries in the category" are tossed in the first cut. This will probably happen in at least 2-3 of those pile as the skill-level in category improves. Ultimately this all boils down to the format of the contest - the format is the problem - the format has always been the problem. Look at any other painting comp in the world.

[@Infinitevacuum]

Thing is, entering to the Golden Demon was 30 euros (+40 € to enter Spiel), you could enter one category or all with that. So all that discussion about paying for entering etc., is pointless

[@Haraldikalvalid]

Have you considered using OBS Studio to record the podcast instead of limiting yourself to an SD card? Benefits are that you record directly to a computer and you can also record multitrack audio as well. Great podcast btw

[@chezratte1357]

The one entry that got disqualified makes sense. The license for lord of the rings is very special. Back when the eastlings were released i wanted a unit of those as spearmen for my Dark Elves army and wasn't allowed to play thos in any GW store, since it was only allowed with Lord of the rings and even using bitz with other miniatures was banned. Don't know who he was talking to or mailing with at GW, but it might have been someone not that familar with the license and everything, so it might just be a problem of comunication. I talked to a black shirt at my local GW store about conversions and using bits from other companies about 15 years ago. He told me that 75% of the miniatures has to be GW parts (3D printed elements weren't a thing back then, but i would guess same counts for those), for me to use them in games in their stores. I would stick to that for painting comeptitions.

[@infinitedm5396]

~ 15:00 i dont think its hollow. Its just not trying to be a crunchy game. You guys seem like youre more interested in crunch that Pathfinder may provide. But Soulbound really wants to get out of the way of the players and let them just go for it.

[@liberalhyena9760]

TUP: the podcast where the humour goes too far, the self-presentation is bizarre, analysis sub-par, and the bromance stellar.

[@Tempest-Official]

Ahh. The Tickler and Zoa Energy Drinker. Love you guys. I'd love to get you on the channel for some MTG shenanigans. Looking at you Johnny boy.

[@justincausey3000]

The brews are a lore on their own.

[@dragonforgedesign]

This next GD in March will be 31 years since I first entered a GD. Not much has changed with the drama. This year was fun and felt good to get back into the game. I look forward to 2025. Oh and I think one of the stickers means it was photographed.

[@JStruggers]

At the end of the day, if you have 10 perfectly painted models..... How do you judge best art. Its just going to be down to judges vibes. Its the only way at that stage. Its the problem with having a top 3 and best model, rather than say a gold, silver and bronze standard, with any number of models in those categories.

[@mikewalf]

The King is an awesome film. A retelling of Henry V, ends in the Battle of Agincourt, where the English army beat the French and took control of Northern France.

[@KhaosOfJersey]

So in D&D your core abilities Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma each get broken down into individual abilities. Intelligence you’ll see arcane knowledge, history, nature, religion. Dexterity has acrobatics, sleight of hand, stealth. Strength so on and so forth. It’s very similar. Then you can learn things like wood working, black smithing, vehicles.

[@U_N_C_L_E_Mike]

Jon does this make you back to back undisputed magic and gathering champion!

[@ronbaugh2641]

I agree if an entry fee was used for more judges then I wouldn’t mind. Youngbloods should always be free. As for the fee I’d keep it relatively cheap. I’m in the US and think $20 would be reasonable. Maybe discount or a package deal for multiple entries. The spending should be transparent and be reported for each event.

[@SleepyGhst]

“Oversharted”. A fart joke. Oathsworn is great but the clean up of these games give me so much anxiety. Kdm is just insane clean up. Same with sleeping gods. I like fast games and I clean up like final girl or escape the dark castle, death may die. Another great podcast. Glad you guys keep this going and enjoy yourselves on it. It’s great.

[@mattbrennan798]

"Sometimes I just need SKRAG brown, sometimes I just need AVERLAND sunset." -literally using both right naw, they're essential.

[@benfieldhicks7064]

Pizza style: Sounds like "old world" or "grandma style". One of my favorites. Rock it in a sheet pan lot of olive oil so it kind of fries it in the pan.

[@billfromwork7203]

I want to enter a painting competition for the 1st time, which should i try? I have no illusion/expectation to place or be recognized in any manner. I'm just curious how far I could push a piece. As a former athlete, competition itself is reason enough to see how far I can push it, and the best way to learn to be better.

[@Lohtex]

Was still a missed opportunity to not have Adam add the final touches on the painting telephone model

[@sophia_comicart]

I love The King. That’s a great movie. Chris Pine’s ‘Outlaw King’ is outstanding . It tells the story of Robert the Bruce after the murder of William Wallace (Mel Gibson in Braveheart). You guys will love it.

[@talonjansen8926]

Incubussy. I believe that is the correct term. 😂😂😂

[@RoofusKit]

I am also a claw hand painter just like Goobs and Vince.

[@tay13666]

I never realized they didn't charge for entries. Every contest I have ever entered had an entry fee.

[@christopherschlegel6412]

False hopes discussion at 56:00 is why I'm always super bummed after nova painting competition but usually pretty happy with GD, since GD I already had time to cope

[@cosmoceratops]

Seems like there's a niche in the community that could be filled. PAX was the same way. PA decided to put on a convention that they would like to attend and it's become a staple in the gaming space. Even if your painting event is invite only the first time or two it could work. Vincey Con 2025!

[@mrmooney25]

Painting competitions has just as much drama as Boomer Hot Rod car shows, I'm just waiting for the day when each miniature is presented with a foamboard display listing all the parts, conversions, paints used and that its a 1 of 1 paint job.

[@tabbyplays930]

There's financial incentive in everything a company does, even things that are done "free of cost" to the consumer. The thing Games Workshop has had less trouble with in the last ten years ,but has always struggled with, is being enthusiastic about what they're doing. Not just the staff, the whole company. It's something a lot of businesses struggle with. If THEY were INTO Golden Demon, and tournaments, and anything else they do.. people would be into them more, but their corporate greed always leaks into their events.

[@alexwembridge5961]

From the UK and I'd interpret finalist > commended > notable although the last two could be interchangeable. Sounds a mess either way

[@frederikschulze8218]

GW actually refuse to put pics of event armies with AOS parts etc being used in LOTR on WarCom because they are worried of licencing issues so the GD "excuse" might not be as surprising as it seems

[@leesweeney8879]

No rules, leads to anger.

[@ScottyHall-tc8cg]

Undersiege is on a big war boat, and the sequel was on a train. Die Hard and Undersiege were competing for locations and kept changing based on who got out there first.

[@Broken777Arrow]

so when do we get a skit between Darren and upside down glasses Scott?

[@LonePonderer]

I love Jon explaining how he'll spend his own money to bring a judge onto Golden Demon. I mean, if you're going to put your own money down to make a painting competition work optimally, especially given Scott's very valid concerns about corporate behaviour from GW if it became a paid event, why not create your own painting comp? you guys are big enough now and you have the connections across the painting content creator community for it to have no less reach than Golden Demon has,... in the words of Shia Lebouf, JUST DO IT

[@Primhabear]

Great d&d skill work and play watch table top tactics a cast of players fun

[@frostyworldwide-fpv4586]

1:37:05 Kantor does not need to make corrections

[@magmalicker]

You guys ever try "Marvel crisis protocol" from Atomic mass games? I just got the old two player box set and it's looking like it could be pretty fun, the game play looks good, and the minis look really good. I've been reading Marvel comic's most my life so this game is right up my alley. What do you guys think about it?

[@PB-re1mm]

Some random youtube pro artist "I didnt have time this year so I spent 2 hours sprucing up a miniature that got an honorable mention 7 years ago" "wHy DiDnT i EvEn PlAcE???" I get that the big nid and the Tau were paint at near technical perfection, but the color choices were just horrendous as they didnt look good. I'm tired of being eye blasted by NMM used that make something ridiculously unrealistic. Also people need to take into account what GW wants to promote, I get that plague Warriors can have a lot of cool textures and color choices. But I'm so tired of seeing nurgle stuff and trolls.

[@Avller]

Trapped under plastic - where two guys talk about stuff and if you are listening you enjoy it and if you don't listen you don't enjoy it

[@Lefti4life]

If it was a thin circle pizza, it was probably "tavern style" pizza. Chicagoians eat a tavern style pizza way more than we do deep dish

[@SeppukoGaming]

Don't know if this has been brought up but the tickets to participate in Golden Demon where +10€

[@CPyJIb]

Another dimension, another dimension, another dimension...)

[@cailansdown7703]

They charged £10 per entry for golden deamon at Warhammer fest Manchester was one of the first years I didn’t bother to enter especially with cost of tickets just to enter the event

[@cailansdown7703]

That was £10 per entry as well

[@jeanclaudevanslamme]

Bloodsport is one of the movies of all time.

[@Skiriwowi]

It is a movie that exists, yes

[@gabrielmccray3457]

OK, USA.

[@isisnmagic1812]

Under siege also has Tommy Lee Jones in it, and its mercenaries not Russians, but it's a good film and it's based on a US battleship though there is a submarine in the film .😅😅

[@VentiChristopher]

What is the name of the pizza place?! I want to try it!

[@gabrielmccray3457]

Sounds like someone needs to make a big independent art competition.

[@workshoptelescope]

The story about Bloodsport and Frank Dux is worth your time to look into. Absolute lunacy of a BS artist.

[@tabletopapprentice233]

Make combat not an option, ie if the bad guys are obviously too powerful to fight outright then the players are more likely to try be creative to get past them to sneak or otherwise

[@Headpotatoes]

Doesnt Golden Demon entry already cost 10$ atleast in europe it does and in Essen it did.

[@georgewhanford4421]

No one ever wants to pay to enter but I will mention that it is 25 dollars to enter a rabbit at the Wisconsin state fair and that is not the biggest rabbit show on earth. 😂

[@samd5466]

🎉🎉🎉

[@Valthorn898]

Am I missing something on the Reaper hate?

[@billdefranza4927]

Trapped Under Plastic: the podcast with Hot Rodent on Rodent Action.

[@dbul2542]

Fire season means something very different here 😅

[@BigFriendlyGaming]

This isn't even unique to Golden Demon or miniature painting. Any competition setting where there is subjective judging people there are going to be people who feel they didn't get a fair shake. I've seen it at county fairs! (You think Cletus is happy someone else's Giant Pumpkin beat his!). GW can't control how people feel about losing. Golden Demon is already the biggest miniature painting competition in the world that generates millions of dollars in value in marketing with the investment they are putting in. Untill that is threatened by other competitions or changing tastes there is no incentive to change.

[@AceEclipseRL]

Trapped Under Plastic: The podcast where grandad Vinci V holds no influence.

[@asuranshadow9491]

Still boggles my mind that gw doesnt invest in better pictures of the GD entries. Free above studio art quality versions of their product to advertise, and it gets the c+ photography treatment...

[@syd4890]

Painting competitions are just events full of snobs with a brush handle stuck up their painting pot 😂 The idea is good, but the reallity is just a toxic crybaby filled event. Case in point: grown men putting tantrums because they didnt get the award they think they were entitled to just by walking into a room... nice message for the young bloods that painted a piece that stole their thunder 😅

[@sweepauto]

part of it is that the Eavy Metal style is not that good or at lest pretty boring . it is a bit like people making really good stick figures while the more talented people have moved on to Realism. so winning GD is held up to some high stranded but the paint jobs are just so bland compared to the more improved styles . i understand GD is marketing event for GW and Eavy Metal is their thing but as painting has improved Eavy Metal has just seems to be lack luster at this point so it has turned in to a bit of joke.

[@BlackKara]

Well. I'll add "kill someone to get a spot into Vincey Con" to my list of "Things that will make me feel valid as a painter" lol.

[@LordMOwings]

Uhhh... Is NinJon wearing bowling shoes? *ADHD moment*

[@Nico-ml5eg]

Euh, you had to pay to enter Golden Demon at Spiel, you couldn't just show up with your mini. You had to pay extra when buying Spiel tickets, golden demon entry was extra.

[@martinniederhausen6511]

Without the Drama GW would not get the exposure from all the Channels that are talking about the Drama. The avarage GW customer does not care about the conditions people are facing when Partizipation in GD. For GW it is cheap Marketing, why would they change anything.

[@maxey1977]

Bloodsport!

[@ScottySpeeks]

The comment regarding needing to know excessive amounts of BS in order to participate in any sort of narrative is GW lore in a nutshell

[@rahotep789]

Yeah boooiiii

[@marcoghiotti7153]

If we put this much effort in dramatising a painting competition of plastic/resin toys in other aspects of society, I am quite certain we would be living in a complete different world. Anyway, happy hobby to all of you who do not take this spare time too seriously.

[@GoufinAround_]

Bloodsport is basically less cool Mortal Kombat

[@franekwrobel1449]

10:00 then play warhammer 4ed...