Do Painted Minis Even Matter? | S5E12

[@shawnald]

"K'bolds." From the state dialect that brought us "robits."

[@joshuabrowncrow]

Scott, you’ve nailed it with red-Vader. The different textures and hues make all the parts look distinct. The materials look different, and it’s true to the original black Vader.

[@Lefti4life]

For characters in RPGs, I've always found a good rule to keep is that your characters life was relatively low-key before the game starts. One or two out of the ordinary circumstances because otherwise the character is almost too well formed and it's harder to explore who the character is through play, which is half the reason we plan the damn things haha

[@Aieika]

I play DND with a player who is blind. We play virtually (because distance) and you get real good with theatre of the mind. We don't NOT use virtual battle maps but as a DM I need to describe everything anyway. The characters get real creative with terrain as long as I describe the scene well

[@mattroso1210]

My simple rule is that I'll never played a game with MY unpainted miniatures... That's how I've got 5 warbands painted up to a high quality (for my skillset), along with a full table of dense, custom built war cry terrain over the past 6 months. I'm foremost a strategy board gamer, and lets be real, MOST wargames just don't have great rulesets in comparison. I play wargames exclusively for the awesome feel of a fully painted table of miniatures, and if i let myself start playing with grey plastic, its like throwing away the best part of the hobby for me! So yeah by holding myself to that rule, it keeps hobby motivation high!

[@summonlessermaker]

@miniac For your star wars game, when trying to measure out the obscure distances. You could make a ruler that has those words printed on it. I've done that and handed it to each player so they can measure out everything or evaluate what they're doing and helps a lot with keeping the game moving along. And it has the added benefit of being gridless too.

[@GoodKondy]

Great ep, love both your channels and the podcast, keep it all up. I would like to mention that the discussion about miniatures in RPG’s is a little wonky. “Theater-of-the-mind” style gameplay is excellent specifically because you don’t need to have the complete understanding of everyone’s position on a board. It turns dnd combat from a skirmish game where every individual action can make or break an encounter, into a game of decisions and character moments. You can still have decisions and character moments in miniature-style rpgs, but getting bogged down in the intimate specifics of combat makes some players focus to much on the mechanics of combat, and not enough on the role-playing aspect of these games. Also, theater of the mind allows for the dm to be more flexible with encounters as well. If you have a battle in a castle foyer and a player asks if there’s a chandelier or something they can collapse on an enemy, the dm can invent one. If it’s not on the map, too bad, so sad. Tactical style rpg combat is awesome and can be incredibly fun, but rpgs arguably require minis less than any other board game that could. Hell, monopoly needs minis more, imo.

[@gekalskip]

Interesting talk all this about gaming, love it. And: playing a game "ONLY every other week 6 hours" .. holy sh*t thats a huge time investment, and i thought a game of warhammer took ages. Also that TUP logo absolutely rocks, as does the intro music. Is that an actual song, if so, i'd love to know which. Thanks for doing what you guys do, you bring the hobby to life, for someone who actually hasn't done anything with the hobby in 15 years or so - so not really to life, but in my head i'm in the hobby again, i think that counts

[@Mulmack]

When discussing distances in star wars there is a difference between dnd and star wars. mobs get grouped together on a map. So you have squads that only take up a single "square" so it doesn't get bogged down the same way dnd does with 5' squares and 10-12 enemies, it might only be a boss and 2 squads of minions.

[@nurglematthew893]

Welcome back. This is the place to be. Nurgle Bless 🙌

[@kingkreaghan]

One of my favorite episodes ever!

[@MrSkullface]

One of the early sculpting instructions in my early Kingdom Death days was to sculpt them in a way that mimicked the essence of classical sculptures so they would looks good not painted. Even the only official painting for the Kickstarter was painted like stone, pretty much gray with some cracks.

[@VentiChristopher]

Check out Professor Dungeon Master’s Ultimate Dungeon terrain, he uses a zoned method of play that matches the rings you are describing.

[@alexmarinkovich-josey7893]

Your discussion on models in rpgs is so interested, and I'm glad you brought up the notion of player agency in the SW RPG Scott. That game was my first ever TTRPG, and it's wildly different from D&D. I'd argue it's a stronger narrative system where you really don't need models, and it works best when combat isn't a full on initiative turn system. Also, in terms of running rpgs, have you checked out Matt Collville's Running the game series? It's a masterclass in how to run rpgs, well worth checking out

[@AlexisGraf]

Hard disagree that it’s hard to run a fun combat session on a regular basis. I haven’t used minis for any RPG for like 8 years and I feel like my players enjoy the game more now that combat isn’t so bogged down with miniatures.

[@kingkreaghan]

I'm a little behind this week on watching my videos. On this topic, I can't say anything about wargaming, never had done it, and very little on board. Now D&D, I can. Having been an avid roleplayer for 30+ years, I have been a part of many different circumstances. To me, it depends on the group. I have played using dice as standins as characters, unpainted minis, sometimes never even used minis, and even a mix of painted and unpainted. I have made terrian and used it but have also and mostly simply draw it on a mat or paper. To me, it is about roleplaying, and the representation is second. Now, the painter in me has been wanting more. So I say do you, but I'm gonna strive to get a painted campaign going. That's my goal.

[@shawnhilliard]

I would love more board game talk on this channel!

[@zethjin6730]

Talking about the immersion: For me, it depends not only on your "monk"state of enlightment and reputations, to be solid with the rules. It is an issue of the rules itself as well. For example: It is more immersive for me, when you put a explosive marking over your minis to measure out, which is effected by, instead of just rolling a dice for "calculating" the hits. Sure, it is better for gaming purposes (less conflict points during tournaments and stuff; and it is faster after all), but it kills the visual impact.

[@jeffgallo7226]

YOOOOO totally agree with the review on YAK AND YETI!! A great departure from the food quality throughout the rest of the park.

[@jeffgallo7226]

and since I live here in FL, I am totally going to ship you a box of Anoles.

[@oleww50]

5:03 Atlan does amazing supports, for OPR and Highlands minis (last time I checked). Flawless prints 99.9% of the time.

[@MrFraknak]

Started itching when this didn't come out on Monday like I'm used to.... lol

[@mandzakminiatures]

Right now is a great chance to start playing on the Everquest Emulator (free) server, project quarm. EQ is based off dnd tropes and stats. The server goes through the original content of Everquest up through planes of power and stops (this will take YEARS, no way to race through content on this server, enjoy at your own pace). It is a really classic experience but with a lot of quality of life changes/ updates. On July 1 the first expansion unlocks, Kunark, which allows you to play a new evil race, the Iksar (lizard people). The community is really great and the vibe is really a non-rush and non-need to raid, unlike most games. People are really helpful for new players to Everquest. Always looking for more, so if you want to make a sweet necro or something let me know and I would be happy to show your the ropes and get you some early gear etc. Chivalry 2 is also a fun game.

[@yurisei6732]

I've found that becoming short-sighted has really helped my ability to appreciate painting minis - I can no longer see the imperfections, which drastically reduces the amount of work needed to paint a mini that I would think looked good.

[@whittaker007]

Sounds like Scott discovered the Loki strategy in Blood Rage :)

[@Ziforigin]

We really liked playing Blood Rage with my wife and friends, we had almost the whole set painted, we had add-ons (except for gods) and some kickstater-exclusive monsters (i remember a wolfman being a great addition to the game). So yeah, what we found the best solution is every player could ban 1 card each round he didn't want playing against. So 3rd round loki cards would often be banned. This would make you to play a little bit more diverse strategies knowing that you shouldn't putt all eggs into one basket. And the scores Scott mentions... With proper Loki you could go over 200 points and our game even with bans usually had around 150 points for each player.

[@bluenine85]

I'm trying to get into the habit of not commenting until the end of the video but damn I'm going to start keeping notes lol @ninjon I once went to Cuba with some fellow Canadians to a resort with an open bar, they got trashed and laid around the pool. I got trashed and chased lizards and looked at plants lol You have the right priorities

[@zramirez5471]

What my old D&D group found was that there was a far bigger issue being restricted by dice rolls than anything else. We ultimately ended up ditching 3.5E mechanics entirely and just doing narrative campaigns with combat being judged by the DM. Minis, but probably moreso terrain still would have been a great tool.

[@belowaverageminis13]

"That's fugging dracula dude, that's fugging dracula, he's badass." -Jon 2024

[@AncientWyrm1775]

1:07:39 I actually think, for warhammer specifically, playing more competitively, or at least more often and at a higher level where you're trying to learn and fully understand the rules, makes this better and easier. I started feeling more immersion once i started playing the game more seriously, and also i care less about winning, ironically. I think it comes down to having fully memorized the rules and getting the play patterns down, so I'm not using as much brainpower making decisions on the spot, since I'm so familiar with the game, so I have the mental bandwidth left to get immersed and appreiciate the cinematic moments. Also, for winning and losing, since I've played so many games, and i play so often, each individual loss or win means less. I can actually be happy for my opponents good luck or clever moves, since it's just one game out of 100 I'm going to play this year. Whereas if you play 4 games a year, each loss stings a lot more.

[@Whichendup]

As a Star Wars rpg veteran since Edge of the Empire beta a decade ago it is funny listening to Jon trying to justify why range bands don't work when he's obviously never even played the system. Cool, good job trying to shit on Scott's enjoyment because it doesn't match your Pathfinder simulationist aesthetic. This is why people hate gatekeeping grognards like Jon.

[@MustbeBen]

Love you guys ❤

[@susannahlewis8464]

"It doesn't have long term depth." Allow me and my 230+ episode Monster of the Week podcast to laugh my ass off. Y'all gotta listen to some PbtA podcasts and see how incredible the depth of theater of the mind games can be. Also, Kids on Bikes is a lot of fun, I agree. The rules are a little wishy washy for me, even as a lover of PbtA (as much as I actually adore our Kids on Bikes one shot). That's me though. There are some really good longer KoB shows out there. My sweet spot for rules level is somewhere around Monster of the Week, Urban Shadows, and Dungeon World, all of which we have or are running very long term games of.

[@susannahlewis8464]

And if anyone wants suggestions: The Critshow, Thornvale, Shrimp and Crits, Felhaven, Monster Hour, Memester of the Week, $2 Creature Feature.

[@NegativeNezzy]

I definitely did what you mentioned for my army but that’s a bigger investment so I like it. Also my head cannon doesn’t matter. I fell in love with the gameplay and aesthetic of the Drukhari but i couldn’t stand the torture porn backstory. I painted all of my Drukhari as bright purple and gold and play them as Ynnari - Drukhari. This actually really upset someone i know. Apparently I’m “too basic to play bad guys”.

[@tinaprice4948]

Professor Dungeon Masters UDT is a circle and you could make one with the different rings so you know where you and the monsters are at :D

[@WinstonCorneilius]

Ayoo that whole intro was wild…😂😂

[@troutpies]

I'd say that saying "the majority of RPG's, except for rules light games, play better with minis" (paraphrasing) indicates a pretty limited awareness of RPGs as a whole. Certainly, tactically focused games like D&D cater to that play style. But, even putting aside RPGs that aren't combat focused, that only covers *some* rpgs. I don't know anyone who would refer to something like "Burning Wheel" as "rules light." Some systems, such as the various versions of FATE, handle physical combat by dividing the scene into "zones." Any number of Powered by the Apocalypse games - and by extension Blades in the Dark, and its derivatives - are more concerned narrative framing than simulationist tactical precision. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a tactically oriented game, and if minis enhance the gaming experience that's awesome! I particularly like Jon's bit about having players paint their own mini, and forging a stronger connection to their characters. This was certainly my experience in a D&D 3.5 game that went on for years, and took my character from level 1 up to level 20. That said, it's hard to fault players for wanting to "smash the bad guys," when that is what the game's primary reward mechanism encourages players to do. Kill bad guys = experience points, which means more cool powers to kill more bad guys. But, *mechanically* D&D doesn't offer much to facilitate the narrative. Like Jon says - D&D is designed to be played on a one inch grid. Again, there's nothing wrong with that style of play. I love getting down with some Dungeon Crawl Classics, for some good old fashioned monster bashing. But sometimes me and my friends want to play out a drama and hijinks filled telenovela, and we don't need minis for that. The reason it can be difficult for DM's to engage players with the narrative is because D&D isn't designed for it, and it doesn't provide the DM good tools to make it happen. But there are tons of other games that *do* support the narrative mechanically *and* give the GM lots of tools. Blades in the Dark might be a good one to try - I think the setting/genre would appeal to Scott and Jon, and it's definitely not rules light, and *is* designed for long term play (your gang gets a hideout and turf, that they develop as they pull off jobs and develop relationships with other factions).

[@Cordeneaux87]

Jon needs to sign up for a local birdwatching tour at every place he goes.

[@darkayen27]

Pathfinder makes great pdf map packs for all their adventures. So I mounted a TV in a box to lay on the table to display the maps.

[@kikolokopo_toys]

Guys, talking about big football clubs (soccer), this year Porto FC changed presidents and they discovered that the Club's account had 8000€ and Millions of depth (that would be paid over by merch, members and investors), but the club itself had less money than a 19yo university student

[@asuranshadow9491]

Painted minis can really help distinguish different units or characters on the board, in addition to the pageantry.

[@scottmiller1299]

Customizing your models and giving them names helps me get more immersed when I play wargames.

[@1guanidae]

Brad and the alicin t-shirt got me :)

[@ydoIhavetohaveachann]

Try Lychee instead of chitubox that might help with your troubles.

[@spilbobaggins]

This.

[@JustinPivinski-cm2rh]

I dm'd the star wars game Scott is starting for years. Most of the time I never had anything physical. For some important battles there would be a map and models but times there wasn't. Dnd sounds more important to have the grid. I huess it was more work on me to manage but I enjoyed it

[@JustinPivinski-cm2rh]

And if you see this Scott, gor the range bands I just used like common sense didn't think to hard about it. Engaged is engaged. Close I'd like accross tge room. Long a couple buildings down tge street. Extreme is your sniper setup far away. The way the star wars rules are setup just keep the action flowing just use your judgment for ranges

[@gregwhite6005]

Same. I loved Edge of the Empire. Was so liberating at a GM. I just used a white board. Players had different coloured pens. I let the players do all the dice rolls, we would round table the advantages and disadvantages together and always go with the coolest or funniest option. It was the game system that required the least prep and had the most creativity and collaboration of any system I’ve played, and I’ve been playing since 1987.

[@terrencemiltner1005]

Yes, painted minis matter. Shortest episode evah.

[@figureartout]

Trapped Under Plastic... The plastic, paint and razorblades, dopamine injection we all crave. Thanks Guys

[@susannahlewis8464]

I've never played a tabletop wargame, so I can't speak to that. But I've played a LOT of TTRPGs and never once used minis. My crew does stuff entirely theater of the mind. There's only maybe three or four times when I've drawn a little map in a big battle just to give my players a slightly better idea of where everyone stands. But that's like four times in... 500+ hours of game play. We play mostly online, but even in person, we've never felt the need for minis. Now, this might have something to do with the fact that (not to pat my own back) I'm a pretty good GM who can easily describe a setting or creature in ways that players can pick up on. That's not a talent everyone has, so I can see minis helping players understand what things look like if your GM isn't as good at that sort of thing. But overall, I don't think minis are remotely necessary for TTRPG enjoyment. Oh, and we don't play DnD. We don't play Pathfinder. We play PbtA games or other kinds of narratively focused games. This is mostly because we're running podcasts, and crunchier games are SO much harder to make sound good in an audio medium. Trust me, I went through hell editing our Shadowrun game, haha.

[@HomeDrone]

Dune Imperium Uprising is all the Dune you need. The original base is great, the expansions are fine. But Uprising by itself is excellent.

[@terrencemiltner1005]

Speaking of Relegation, one of the funniest things I have seen is a long time was BenchwarmerBran's video about the Bears getting relegated because they were so bad and they wanted to challenge the Denver Broncos because they were both 0-4. So funny.

[@Ultr4l0f]

In TTRPGs I prefer to not use actual minis. It takes me away from the "theater of mind" and turn the action into a boardgame. We often just used dice. The halfling got the d4. The barbarian the d12 and we use those to rough estimates pf location. In gsmes like Warhammer? Its just alot cooler when painted! Played 2500vs2500 The Old World recently. I had all my stuff painted, and the enemy side had painted about half. And we had decently nice terrain. And that made the game better! It just looks cooler!

[@yobtar]

Not sure if you guys saw Broken Anvil has shipped their Paints out . I got mine hopefully they can recover from all the stuff that happened I really like all their stuff

[@mikewicked.x]

I feel like the reason for the Privateer Press buyout was for PP to get away from the Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter kerfuffle. Declare bankruptcy and the obligations are wiped.

[@kainerosenquest4806]

English football fan here! Teams don't have a salary cap but there is a financial fairplay rule where teams have to break even and can't operate at a loss with constant bailouts from directors and investors - unless you're manchester city

[@jessefrederick-eq9fx]

Do you get a narrative immersion playing a game of old school Risk or something else with 3d tokens not minis?

[@bluenine85]

Luxury gaming idea: Overhead laser grid projector with an adjustable scale

[@liamwhaley3446]

Arizona mini painter here: Been chased into my car by a large lizard that MIGHT have been a Gila Monster as an adult grown ass man with a beard. Catch that Jon! Seriously, get it out of my town, I think it’s following me.

[@grimoirworkshop6623]

Something strange just happened. When Jon mentioned Warhammer for the first time I was (for a moment) sincerely like "oh, you guys now about miniature painting hobby?!" 😮😮😮

[@aroncheek5092]

Im a chelsea fan since childhood so always been up the top leagues but there are local clubs and community clubs

[@grumpyoldbear7728]

Have a look at the Emperor's Royal Guards, its one way you could take Red Vader

[@seraphoncobus]

Can't wait for 4th Ed. AoS skaven Jon vs soulblight Scott!!!!

[@pvrhye]

If your blue dude is intentionally different, that's kind of a cue to a GM to make that relevant. Some games handle these kinds of narrative cues well (e.g. Burning Wheel).

[@sophia_comicart]

I could listen to you guys talk dnd and DMing all day. Have a master and apprentice vibe would make for an incredible other podcast if you’d ever consider it. Florida Universal is the goat. Btw after this red suit Vader, would you do a Black Vader but in all red lighting like the corridor scene in Rouge One? I feel like the difference could be a really interesting learning opportunity plus it would look badass. On painted minis, I often think about just making them all gold or bronze, playing them more like monopoly pieces than minis but they’re too expensive and cool for that. I might do it for some board games though. My new thing is clear bases, especially playing HeroQuest or something, you can actually see the ground and they blend in better.

[@spencerwaters9645]

All of Disney Land California can fit into the Magic kingdom Parking lot in Florida. And that's just one of the many Disney Theme parks in Florida.

[@spencerwaters9645]

Chocolate Emporium is good cause it's not a universal restaurant, it's a 3rd party company. Unfortunately Universal restaurants aren't very good. Some of Disney's are so good, but it's not exactly fair cause they have so many to choose from.

[@ydoIhavetohaveachann]

holy shit for real, some of the dark rides at universal like spiderman and transformers are WAYYYY fucking rougher than the rollercoasters.

[@Vorpal_Wit]

Barrels not drilled out = Grimdark Disqualifier. Also, Jon, why do you never use the insignia/decals for these 40k subjects? The iconography is part of the core essence of the world, so not having it looks diminished. Scott, I may have to send you a pic of the table I'm build for my Fistful of Lead: Galactic Heroes (Star Wars) campaign I'm planning for September.

[@tomwalsh522]

As a transplant from Boston to Ohio I can understand first time I saw black squirrel I nearly lost it

[@MyBrothersDeck]

Flesh and Blood is the best! I love that you play. Do you have a fav class or hero?

[@Ziforigin]

Scott, just allow players to ban 1 card every round in Blood Rage. And you better play with druids\shamans or whetever they are called + kickstarter monsters.

[@brandondollar]

I used to run D&D with BB gun pellets with painted tops as miniatures. If you are trying to make everything photorealistic, you are going to lose options. You should be doing a lot of "we are gonna use these humans as lizardmen" or "The dragon is this blanket, because in 2e, an age category 10 is about 4 foot long at this scale."

[@TacticalBurnVictim]

I used to live in Florida as a kid and those tiny ass little lizards would crawl all over me and my text books while I was doing homework outside between thunderstorms. Miss those little fuckers.

[@MultiverseMinis]

Jon the new Hagrid ride at Harry Potter world is so worth it you shouldnhsve just left your daughter and rid it yourself!!

[@user-kiwikind]

All I do is paint dnd minis and terrain… don’t even use them in games anymore as I can only find time to play online

[@gsmith1135]

Wait, you were in AZ? :o

[@noops9220]

Pretty sure ninjon is a real life druid

[@ydoIhavetohaveachann]

%100 Orlando restaurants don't try because they know you won't be back.

[@elgrifolorian]

💯

[@Gooch359]

What is this soccer in the UK you speak of? 😂

[@aroncheek5092]

Like learning how to play chess and playing against champions

[@goforitpainting]

Cool 👍

[@caiohcoutinho]

I totally disagree with you Jon, on lack of grids+miniatures taking depth of the campaign. I GMed a Vampire: The Masquerade campaign over Discord with 0 grids, 0 miniatures, 0 images. I ran it for several months and still one of the most memorable campaigns of my group. The combat scenes were solved at max in 3 turns, and the actios where more abstract, we didn't play out every punch (this is also encouraged by the system). The combat turn is solved on one dice roll, if the player won that turn, he could tell how the scene happened ("I jump over a dumpster and kick the baddie on the face, he falls down and yells at me"). We had characters good at social scenes, characters good at investigating, and yes, characters good at combat. Being tactical is a specific flavor of games. It's just a flavor. There's good games with it, and good games without it.

[@Artmesa]

You guys need to play more non-GW games. It shows.

[@rabidwhale]

Swinging the Dong

[@Odeus777]

happy pride month I guess 1:41

[@billdefranza4927]

!Dan

[@jasonzapata]

Bee Keeper WAS incredibly mid.

[@mrsay2u572]

If you are not going to paint your mini's why use them. Play a board game.

[@E.B.Haukeland]

You migth just like to *play* the game

[@Artmesa]

Yes exactly. Also, paper standees are more immersive than grey plastic.

[@E.B.Haukeland]

I am smelling sarcasm, but to awnser seriusly The issue i have with the original comment is the gate keeping inherent to it sure if you don’t want to play against some one with unpainted minis that is fine, but to say that they shouldn't even play the game if they don’t paint (or fork out money to someone else) is not ”fine” And to your point, I agree that paper standins (and gray minis) are not immersive and if you do have the time and money (and desire) painting is best, but paper minis can be a good option to pack in a binder or some thing if you want to play when traveling🤔

[@AndrzejKarpiuKarpinski]

A napisze cos po Polsku i tak nie przeczytaja ;)

[@thesoothsayer9223]

TLDR Yes