Gorgo's DORIC Greek in Civilization VI - How is the Spartan Pronunciation?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Sign up for Lingopie at this link to immerse yourself in foreign language content made comprehensible from beginners to advanced learners: learn.lingopie.com/lukepolymathy Gorgo speaks Doric Greek in Civilization VI! But how is the Greek? Does she use an authentic reconstruction of the Spartan accent of the 5th century BC? I will review this and more as we explore the fascinating world of Ancient Greek from the other great city-state of Classical Antiquity: this is SPARTA. 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873 ☕ Support my work with PayPal: paypal.me/lukeranieri And if you like, do consider joining this channel: kzbin.info/door/Lbiwlm3poGNh5XSVlXBkGAjoin 🏛 Latin by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/latin-by-the-ranieri-dowling-method-latin-summary-of-forms-of-nouns-verbs-adjectives-pronouns-audio-grammar-tables 🏺Ancient Greek by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/ancient-greek-by-the-ranieri-dowling-method-latin-summary-of-forms-of-nouns-verbs-adjectives-pronouns-audio-grammar-tables 🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons: kzbin.info/aero/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam 👨‍🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGjLlWpvbq6tpLc 🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel for content in Latin, Ancient Greek, & Ancient Egyptian) kzbin.info 🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio: lukeranieri.com/audio 🌍 polýMATHY website: lukeranieri.com/polymathy/ 🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram: instagram.com/lukeranieri/ 🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast: kzbin.info 👕 Merch: teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus 🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com 🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com 📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon: amzn.to/2nVUfqd Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="0">0:00</a> Intro <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="44">0:44</a> First Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="551">9:11</a> Second Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="930">15:30</a> Third Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1123">18:43</a> Fourth Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1472">24:32</a> Fifth Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1751">29:11</a> Sixth Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1996">33:16</a> With your shield, or on it! <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2076">34:36</a> Seventh Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2371">39:31</a> Eighth Line <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2447">40:47</a> Summary & Conclusion #gorgo #civilization6 #greek

[@TheStickCollector]

There are so many dialects you don't hear about often, like doric for me. Sounds like an interesting culture.

[@jammehrmann1871]

Basically the majority of Greek dialects

[@davidscwimer1974]

She’s a Greek speaker 100%

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Είναι αλήθεια.

[@davidscwimer1974]

@@polyMATHY_Luke or maybe Spanish

[@BannedUser2012]

Yes she is

[@happygamersloth9161]

Wiki says she is

[@dimiaraujo90]

Probably from Athens.

[@jasonbaker2370]

While other KZbinrs keep recycling the same boring content over and over Luke somehow never runs out of outstanding and extremely interesting content. Great stuff!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks, Jason! More to come, and hopefully more interesting than this.

[@Antpaok]

Luke as a native Greek and avid enjoyer of your videos, they seriously need to find you and start bringing you on for translation projects such as these for any movies or games with Latin and Ancient Greek, you would clean up so many inaccuracies and add an insane level of detail I don't think is anywhere else seen

[@hamzzaahmed1794]

My request has finally come to fruition! Grātiās tibi agō!

[@readuth1488]

Dialects within dialects within dialects!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

💫

[@TeutonicEmperor1198]

Think about it. Let's say you are a modern American and you want to hear the English accents of any corner of the world. What do you do? You take the remote control, you open the TV and you can see myriads of english speaking TV shows from all over the world and hear their accents. If you were a Hellenistic age Athenian and you wanted to hear the accents of Greeks in Crimea, or in Massalia, or in the IndoGreek kingdom etc the only way you could hear them is by physically going there. In that age, it would feel like going to the moon or Mars. With such a feeble connection among the Greeks of the Hellenistic (or even classical) world isn't weird that so many dialects and subdialects had emerged!

[@obsidianwinters5857]

Despite not knowing modern Greek and definitely not knowing my Attic from my elbow, this was one of the most interesting 40 minutes I've spent in a while. Cheers, Luke.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks very much!

[@Knight108cb]

It's been so difficult for me to learn about Doric online. I'd love to hear more about it from you!

[@jammehrmann1871]

Another thing "technically" wrong (on the writers side) is the fact that infinitives in Laconian Doric would be -ην not -εῖν due to the way it contracts ε + ε as seen even in dialectal inscriptions. Still a great effort to doricize in place of not bothering with it. EDIT 1: Around <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1903">31:43</a> εως was ι(ϝ)ος in the third declension of Laconic For the shift from antevocalic ε to ι in Laconian, see Buck p. 20. Number 5 So my reconstruction instinct tells me it may be δυνάμι(ϝ)ος with the digamma containing being the "more" archaic form

[@iberius9937]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1955">32:35</a>-<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1964">32:44</a> The reason for this sound change in Doric was undoubtedly because the σ before the δ was eventually aspirated and then dropped, obviously lengthening the δέλτα. Kind of like how Andalusian or Caribbean Spanish tends to aspirate or completely omit the s before stops (e.g. "eppañol" or "e(h)pañol" instead of "español," or "ettrrella" or "e(h)trella" instead of "estrella."

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great example

[@jammehrmann1871]

Exactly!

[@Sabatonis]

What are the odds that I check your channel and I see a new video dropped lol

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

What luck!

[@speedyx3493]

50% - either you see a video or you don't

[@alirubaii4839]

I LOVE when non-Attic/Koinē forms are represented. I am also STRESSED because I feel like my Attic is so lacking hahaha

[@MulladeNegu]

Talk about "splitting hairs" 😂 te amamos Luke. Love from Terra Brasilis.

[@Bunnokazooie]

Love to see modern reception of Doric Greek, and you snuck in a welcome dual!

[@Belcampo1815]

It would be great if someday you read in Greek philosophers like Parmenides, Heraclitus, Anaximander and Aristotle, since most people read their texts in Erasmian or Modern Greek pronunciation, it would be interesting to know how they probably pronounced their texts.

[@RiccardoRadici]

Just today, I was speaking with a friend about a ninety-year-old he has known in Spetzes (ancient Ophiussa island), Greece, who claimed to have studied Doric at his (primary) school. I told him: "It would be almost impossible to teach Doric, even if someone really wanted to". Then, however, I told him that the only form of "Doric" that one could properly teach today is Tsakonian (modern Laconian): our speech going on, it emerged that this elder is not a native of Spetzes, but of Tyros (village of "Cheese", hehe!), in the middle of Tsakonia! So we concluded that the Doric he learned was certainly Tsakonian. Anyway, I was astounded to know that some schools of remote Tsakonia at the time taught this almost-extinct dialect. P.S.: yes, of course Σπαρτιάτης is Σπαρτιάτας in Doric, as well as Ἑλλήνων is Ἑλλάνων, τρέστης is τρέστας (assuming this word exists in Doric), καρτερός is κρατερός, etc. Actually, τεος is attested as a Doric enclitic in stead of σου: it should then be "τιμά τεος". But it's clear that this is just very fine Doric-like flavour, as attested in Attic drama: otherwise intervocalic S should become H, and many other changes should occur: even Plutarch writes "Οὐκ ἂν εἴη ἀτείχιστος πόλις...", but true Doric modal particle is κα rather than ἄν. P.P.S.: I ask again here, in case you did not read yesterday: Do you still use your FB account? I wrote to you a lot of time ago but I don't think you have read my message. Otherwise, how should I contact you? Thanks!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ciao Riccardo! Scusa, lo uso proprio pochissimo, ma scrivimi tramite e-mail; così ci mettiamo d’accordo. Grazie per il commento!

[@j.2047]

Great content as usual.

[@lefcant]

I think in the seventh line, the τοι is not an enclitic particle (like in Attic), but the Dative of 'τυ' "you", making the loose translation a more fitting 'And you will suffer in the same way'.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

You know, I had originally considered that, but then dismissed it since the rest of the original text is filled with Atticisms. Moreover, τοι is just archaic for σοι in Attic, hence its meaning “ya know”. Still, I like your interpretation.

[@JoutenShin]

Grazie!

[@happygamersloth9161]

Exspectābam tē dē Gorgōne Pericleque pelliculam esse factūrum. Optimē!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Periclēs sequētur!

[@happygamersloth9161]

​@@polyMATHY_Luke Optimē fāris!

[@Ants-ed3vl]

I'd love to see a video on Cypriot greek or Arcadocypriot, they are so fascinating, i love them sm!!

[@eugeniakatsafadou331]

Tip for a greek accent in english: pronounce your w's like "γου", because this is how they teach it in schools and how most greeks pronounce it.

[@pespatronhandon]

The last thing I expected was to see Dzidzio in a Polymathy video hahahahah

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I really love that song lol. 🔱

[@Ralesk]

Dangerous game for this video: Take a shot for every ει XD

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Hahahahahaha

[@BrandonBoardman]

That's so hilarious! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 I was expecting a true mid e for ε and ει for Doric Greek instead of [ei].

[@eugeniakatsafadou331]

As a greek it is very difficult for me to appreciate the accuracy in the pronuncuation because the voice actress has a modern greek accent. I dont know why, it just makes my ears cringe, similarly to when I hear a recording of my own voise.

[@louispretends]

completely understand. Ambiorix is a little cringey for me (I'm French), because he clearly has a french accent

[@TMPOUZI]

Do you prefer the soft kinda modern Italian / kinda french accent with an american touch of Luke? Her pronunciation is way more believable for an ancient tongue

[@Stamatakis33]

Nice video Luke!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ!

[@StergiosMekras]

Well, she certainly sounds Greek... I wonder if it would be better if they got a VA from some of the Peloponnesian regions with dialects closing to the old Doric ones.

[@jammehrmann1871]

Hate to break the immersion but there is no more left (atleast when excluding Tsakonian) of the old ancient dialects, very sadly.

[@StergiosMekras]

@@jammehrmann1871 Tsakonian is what I primarily had in mind. Am old acquaintance of mine used to speak it.

[@leepiAM]

I know you've done Theodara for Civ V, are you going to do Theodara from Civ VI or King Basil? 💬❤️

[@gothfather8741]

Hi Luke. I really enjoy your videos! Especially the linguistic ones - Latin and Ancient Greek. Excellent work through and through. I watched your video speaking with a Polish and Hungarian priest in perfect Latin the Vatican. I was curious, and I hope you do not mind the question, but are you a Catholic or Christian by any chance , or are you into the language for purely cultural, and academic reasons?

[@fedorflip]

Are you planning to take a look at Civ VI's Pericles as well? I've noticed that his voicelines seem to have vowel length and pitch accent, I'd be very interested in seeing how much of them is actually right.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Yes! Pericles is next

[@Ghost-Of-Hellas]

Really nice video, can you make a video explaning how the micenian where Greek because there seems to be people that doubt or not know it. Aswell, for the eastern roman empire.

[@iberius9937]

Request: Do the horrible attempt at Greek and Latin for the awful sequel "Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny." Basically the only word of Latin spoken during the Siege Of Syracuse climax by one of the actors playing a Roman soldier, who botches it, and the actor playing Archimides mumbling his lines to hide his bad attempt at Ancient (not even Doric) pronunciation, with Indiana Jones responding in MODERN GREEK and Archimedes understanding him just because of plot convenience, lol.

[@fediak22]

Great video. Could you possibly in the future analyze Ancient Greek in the latest Indiana Jones movie, where they meet *SPOILER* Archimedes and talk to him in AG. I would be really curious about the accuracy.

[@Olymus]

But Luke, with all due respect, what do you think of the maestro from the channel Podium-arts pronouncing ει as a diphthong?

[@Olymus]

@@BrandonBoardman okay, how recent are we talking? In the one month old video of his called "Nicomachean Ethics (Aristotle)" he is still reading ει as a diphthong

[@Olymus]

@@BrandonBoardman Moreover, in the latest video there is he does it as well

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Yes, that wonderful gentleman does great work, but misses the mark in quite a few areas. I do own some of his audiobooks and enjoy listening to them, but I always put them on 2x speed to make the mistakes less evident (and thus less distracting).

[@AuChoco]

Do Basil II next

[@georgekyriakou7993]

Tsakonian dialect is the closest one to the ancient doric greek its stiil spoken here in pelloponesse to the tsakonian area

[@georgepetrou3593]

Hey love your videos! Can you come to Greece and try to speak to greeks in ancient greek just like you did in Italy?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ναι μάλιστα! Ἐν νῷ γὰρ ἔχω οὕτως ποιῆσαι.

[@georgepetrou3593]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Ανυπομονώ φίλε μου! Να είσαι πάντα καλά και να μοιράζεις γνώση στον κόσμο!

[@patmorris9692]

Should it rather be των Ελλανων? With “a” instead of “e”.

[@jammehrmann1871]

If going for Doric greek yes

[@AleksandrPodyachev]

What is "this is Sparta!" In greek?

[@jammehrmann1871]

In ancient Greek spoken in and around Sparta probably: "ἁυτᾱ ἐστί Σπάρτᾱ!!!!" (Transcribed: hautā estí Spártā!!!!)

[@BrandonBoardman]

In Doric Greek it's "Ἅυτᾱ ἐντί Σπάρτᾱ!"

[@DoubleAAmazin]

How tf does anyone know what Dorians sounded like

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

See the videos of mine I reference in the video, and you’ll learn how we know this.

[@jammehrmann1871]

Inscriptions, Attestations within other works and even names

[@DoubleAAmazin]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Will do, and ty

[@Seventh7Art]

Can you do something similar for Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey? Also, Greek is spoken in Assassin's Creed Mirage, Revelations etc.

[@Bepples]

In Odyssey all the Greek lines are spoken with a purely modern Greek accent.

[@apmoy70]

Great video Luke, you look very tired though

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I’m just getting older. Also I had lifted some heavy weights before recording. Also jet-lagged. Mostly just getting older lol. It’s all downhill from here! Haha

[@Marble8King]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2210">36:50</a> - She would have Ντουνατά, not Nδουνατά because Ν and Δ don’t go together especially at the start of a word

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ah that’s right

[@mito88]

it's all greek to moi.

[@theopavlos6113]

1) Koine Greek was based on Attic Greek dialect, but inherited also aspects (p.ex. pronunciation) and some vocabulary from other dialects. For example, the loss of h-sound is an Ionic Greek aspect (a linguistic phemomenon that also happened in Romance languages and Cockney English dialect), while the word ΜΑΓEΙΡΟΣ (cook/butcher) is a Doric Greek cognate of Attic Greek word ΜΑΧΑΙΡΑ (knife/sword). 2) Standard modern Greek pronunciation is not the only pronunciation used by modern Greek speakers. For example: the word ΑΝΔΡΕΣ (=men) is usually pronounced as ANDRES in everyday spoken greek language. Also, the word ΠΡΟΚΟΙΛΙ (=fat belly) is often pronounced as PROΚIOULI in everyday spoken greek language. Other words have survived with a spelling reminding of their old pronunciation: for example the Koine Greek word KYTION became the modern greek word ΚΟΥΤΙ (=box). 3) When pronouncing a word is crucial not only to pronounce the phthongs correctly, but also to stress the word correctly. What is annoying for any modern Greek speaker is not to hear a different pronunciation for the letters, but to hear greek words stressed on the wrong syllable. For example KAI is not stressed on the first syllable, but on the second one. "Gorgo" tries hard to immitate a pronunciation but forgets to stress the right syllables of the words. It's like speaking French with a Quebecois accent, but stressing the words on the first syllables.

[@pawel198812]

και has only one syllable, and is usually never stressed anyway

[@theopavlos6113]

@@pawel198812 Nope. ΚΑΙ has one syllable and is never stressed in modern Greek. It is always stressed in polytonic Koine Greek and probably was a two syllable word at some time before the Hellenistic period. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/καί#Ancient_Greek

[@dragskcinnay3184]

"Kai" without a diaresis has only one syllable? It cannot possibly be stressed in the second syllable because it doesn't have one...

[@panagiotiskarras610]

What makes you believe she needed to be given a text written by some convention? Couldn't she just have been taught?

[@seanslawson98]

Now do Pericles for the Attic pronunciation

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I will!

[@YiannissB.]

Wait? some actually competent voice lines?

[@malegria9641]

As a French speaker I advise you to never use that French accent in the company of French people

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ahahahaha. Naturally this is in the context of how Aristophanes created a caricature of Spartans in his plays. I’m sure the Spartans would have been annoyed too haha

[@morfosismani1194]

κοινή also in ancient greece do not content any ooooo in the spelling it is only iiiii

[@horror11]

she sound like native greek speaker for sure, may be ai though.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

This game was made before AI voices could do this.

[@happygamersloth9161]

Equidem semper cēnsēbam eam "τίς εἶ σύ" ut /tis i si/ magis quam "τίς ἐσσί" dīxisse. Ego tamen minimē perītus linguae graecae sum.

[@BrandonBoardman]

Idem censēbam. Prōnūntiātiōne Gorgōnis attonitus sum.

[@homuraakemi493]

KANE LIVES! PEACE THROUGH POWER!

[@animarain]

Because he's bald? 🙄

[@lordhriley]

But its not incorrect. There are variations in english from what dide of town you from. So how can you say its wrong?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

See my plethora of videos (cited in this video) where I answer this question in detail

[@ehhe4381]

It's all Greek to me...

[@StephanusTavilrond]

We've been all told - both by you and other sources, including on Wikipedia - that the shift from [pʰ tʰ kʰ b d g] to [ɸ θ x β ð ɣ] was gradual, but I remember reading on Wikipedia, that it all started with [g] shifting to [ɣ] around 400 BC, with the other shifts following later. Is there any truth to that?

[@BrandonBoardman]

No. β, δ, and γ retained the older pronunciation for centuries until the later Koiné period.

[@dragskcinnay3184]

The change didn't happen at the same time for all dialects. When he was talking about θ shifting earlier, that's only for Doric dialects; it did, indeed, happen much later for most other dialects