Could A Modernized Mig-21 REALLY Beat The F-35 In A Dogfight? | DCS

[@dustinfrey3067]

P. Sprey wasn't actually involved in the design of any US aircraft. He worked as a bean counter in the US DOD. He isn't an engineer or anything of the like. The calims he has made have been parroted all over. But, the only source for those claims are Sprey himself.

[@leyvirose875]

He actually was an engineer… an audio engineer. Nothing to do with the military. He was credited in several jazz albums for helping with the recording equipment or something. Needless to say, Pierre Spray rarely spewed anything that wasn’t bullshit. To quote @LazerPig: “Most of the things that make the F-35 so great are classified.”

[@wolfgangjr74]

Bean counter? Well that explains everything. Beans are the only thing they cry about.

[@adamwest1138]

Sound engineers aren't engineers though :P @@leyvirose875

[@sugarpapi4227]

P. Sprey was a liar. He didn't "design" any US deployed aircraft.

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

Exactly! By the way, have you seen the laser pig video?

[@TomHomewood]

Pierre Sprey was about as involved in the F16 programme as I was, and I was born two decades after it first flew.

[@fderty4]

Are you a wizard ? 🤨

[@conservativedemocracyenjoyer]

​@fderty4 the joke here is that Pierre is a pathological liar

[@danielmolinar8669]

You could say making paper planes makes you more experienced than him in aircraft design😂

[@strambino1]

That guy said the Bradley was a mistake, I deployed to Iraq with it and it didn’t seem like much of a mistake then. It saved some of my soldier’s from IEDs.

[@Redefras]

He did say it to RT, i.e. Russian Times, at a time where RT would be trying to heavily discredit the American military confidence (still are). Likely drank too much of the "America bad" kool-aid.

[@ilaripurojarvi2283]

Pierre Sprey has about as much knowledge about defense systems as a turkey with its head chopped off

[@92HazelMocha]

Literally the best American IFV.

[@TomHomewood]

Yeah Pierre Sprey-and-prey is peak non-credible

[@macrettink5237]

@@ilaripurojarvi2283 I think I'd trust a turkey more. Sprey was an idiot saying weird stuff just to get paid by russian state TV. @LazerPig did a couple of great videos about him and other morons like that

[@michaelritzen8138]

I am a little sad to see that the Late Pierre Sprey is still being credited with work he didn't do.😢 The entire Reformer group is full of shit and has done and is still doing more harm than good, considering development of new weapon systems.😅

[@pogo1140]

Really? The reformer group is what gave us the F-16 fa-18, typhoon, F-22. The JAS-39, the Korean version of the f-16 were all influenced by them.

[@WillM38]

@@pogo1140 they claim all that, but they were also originally very against the platforms they claim to have designed. There is no evidence of any actual involvement. I'm also not exactly inclined to believe the dude that was featured on the english-speaking russin "news" channel Russia Today

[@pogo1140]

@@WillM38 well RT is RT. And while it may change with NGAD which may not be a fighter at all and be the size of a b-1 but until then, the basic blueprint that the fighter mafia pushed is what informs the basic design of every us fighter built since the F-16.

[@VikingTeddy]

Is this the ssme guy that bragged about being in the fighter mafia, when he actually just knew a few people and hardly contributed anything?

[@michaelritzen8138]

@@VikingTeddy yes, that is the guy. He was interviewed for a biography of someone in the fightermaffia, and just casually dropped that he was part of the A-10 and F-16 design program "trust me bro©". That is the only source of him being involved in any of that

[@sychro_1122]

Ah yes Sprey my favourite "I built every successful plane" bullshitter

[@d.thieud.1056]

Pierre "I built every plane I like" sprey He also used to hate the F-22, untill he learned it's thrust vectoring made it a god-tier dogfighter. Now the F-35 is very successful (the funding for the development less so, but the aircraft itself very) but ofc he doesn't claim any involvement. If the F-35 were to actually dogfight some migs and beat them, and he was still alive, he'd claim it was his demands to make it a better dog fighter that caused that to happen too.

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

Piere Sprei was not behind the creation of any fighter jets at all

[@Chavagnatze]

Yep. Strait up charlatan. Nothing to do with the fighter mafia or any of the kinetic energy and dynamics research that led to the F-16 or F-18. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5nLgJykZ9Voh9U

[@amazin7006]

Facts, he had no part in any engineering on the F16

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

@@amazin7006 Unless you count making a design proposal that is so bad, the actual designers laugh you out of the room for it.

[@trentvlak]

Ahh, Pierre Sprey, perhaps the most skilled self promoter in aviation history. Lazerpig eviscerated his claims pretty thoroughly. I'd like to see a cost-equality fight. 3v1 or 6v2 bvr to the merge.

[@92HazelMocha]

3v1 is not cost equivalency. These are like 2 million dollar planes so it would be more like 40v1.

[@trentvlak]

@@92HazelMocha I thought this was a modernized version. With new manufacture they'd be, like, well I don't know but the Mig29k is like $40 million.

[@92HazelMocha]

​​@@trentvlakNo, mig21's are about 1 million a peice. And the modernizations aren't that extensive, they're still 2nd gen jet aircraft. To put in perspective, while the Mig29K costs 40m, the Mig29A is about 25m, and the block 1 and 2 JF17 are under 20 million.

[@trentvlak]

@@92HazelMocha Interesting. So, let's assume a $1million cost of pilot training and $2 million for a "modernized" Mig 21. You know healthcare costs have gone up for the workers. At $3m/aircraft, a country could field FORTY Mig 21s per F35. That would totally dominate. But I suspect there is some catch, in the same way that cheap torpedo boat zerg rushes never supplanted battleships.

[@92HazelMocha]

@@trentvlak Actual numbers. Like you could build and field a few dozen migs for the cost of a single F35, but there aren't actually dozens of migs flying for each F35. Even these modernized ones like the Mig21-2000 and Lancer are few in actual numbers and are mostly phased out. Also, there's always this missing peice of the puzzle which is that the real value of an aircraft is its effect on the fight on the ground. The F35 is dramatically more effective in that role than even dozens of mig21's.

[@djzoodude]

Sprey had almost nothing to do with the design of the F-16. He claimed he did, but he was actually just an advisor, to an advisor, to an advisor. It was mostly the Air Force ignoring the input of the people in the so called "fighter mafia" that led to the F-15 and F-16 becoming the fighters they are today. If the "fighter mafia" had their way, the F-16 wouldn't even have had a radar.

[@wolfgangjr74]

It would have cost to much according to the bean counters. Destroy any advancements or advantages to save a penny or two.

[@djzoodude]

@@wolfgangjr74 I think you missed my point. The "fighter mafia" didn't think a fighter jet needed radar. They wanted the F-16 to be a pure dogfighter. Only enough fuel for the dogfight, no missiles, only guns, no radar, eyesight only.

[@wolfgangjr74]

@@djzoodude I understood what you where saying but the end result is still the same since bean counters would make sure our military didn't exist.

[@djzoodude]

@@wolfgangjr74 oh, ok

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

Not just that, if Pierre Sprey and his circlejerk known as the Reformers had had their way, none of the pilots would make it back, because the moment they end up in dogfights, they jettison their fuel tanks and only have about 10 minutes left to return to base. If they'd had their way, the Bradley would be a heavy tank, the M113 would have wings, and the M1 Abrams would be equipped with the same gun as the King Tiger.

[@Stinger522]

Pierre Sprey is considered to be one of the greatest heretics in the aviation world. I always knew the wings of a plane give it lift but I wasn't aware of the body of the F-35 doing that too. This match would've been uglier for the Mig-21s IRL because the F-35s would've killed them right before the merge, not after. Great rounds, guys.

[@ShuRugal]

with the exception of the F-16, basically every US fighter from the F-15 onward was designed to have a lifting body. The idea is that if you have to have the weight and cross section of a fuselage, it may as well contribute to lift. Less strain on the wing root attachments and better overall maneuverability for only a relatively minor added cost in design and construction complexity.

[@wastedapathy22]

@@ShuRugalinclude the F-14 in there as well. The “tunnel” between the engines contributed a lot of lift to the design. There’s a great presentation on KZbin by one of the Grumman engineers that worked on the development of the Tomcat that goes into that and other design elements of the Big Fighter.

[@ivorharden]

Whenever a military jet is commissioned, there are always critics saying that it is no good in a dogfight. Spitfire, Phantom, Harrier, Sabre etc.

[@YourTechpriest]

Hell, the P-51H (arguably it's best incarnation) came about because people said the P-51D wasn't suited for dogfighting when it was designed as a long range escort.

[@jimmcneal5292]

​@@gme457it was, op doesn't know what he's talking about(same goes about F-4 phantom 2)

[@ShuRugal]

@@jimmcneal5292I think you misread the comment. he wasn't saying those planes aren't good dogfighters, he's saying that they all had very vocal contemporary detractors who CLAIMED they were not good dogfighters. Basically, people been talking trash on youtube since before youtube existed. It's a constant of Humanity that some people can only feel good about themselves when they are tearing someone else down.

[@NanoBurger]

C-130.....absolutely no good in a dogfight! /s

[@mizore2190]

The Phantom was never designed with dogfighting in mind. it's an interceptor built for hit and run tactics, and the initial design didn't even have a gun because they assumed it would kill anything with missiles before it needed to dogfight (that was a mistake). That said, it's not terrible at dogfighting for what it is and was very capable of out maneuvering it's intended adversaries if the pilot had the skill to do so and also assuming it's early missile technology didn't fail. It's nickname of "The World's Leading Distributor of MiG Parts" was earned through hard fights, and even so it only achieved a kill to loss ratio of around 3:1. The Phantom is the entire reason all new USAF fighter aircraft after it were required to be designed with a gun.

[@milenko8bradanov]

You mean, Pierre Sprey, the music producer and statistician, "self-proclaimed F-16 designer" ? Working with RT ? 🤣

[@namelesscrow9351]

The F-35 is proven to be wonderful and responsive in handling by test pilots and combat pilots, even if they were lying, I don't get why people think countries can just create a complex machine that won't have defects/accidents 💀

[@subjectc7505]

I mean, I expect problems but not on the level the F-35 have.

[@andyvonbourske6405]

most people have a problem with the price not the jet

[@namelesscrow9351]

@@subjectc7505 Because the F-16 didn't have issues in development, nor the F-18, or the F-15, or the F-22, or the B-2, or the B-1, or the B-52, or literally any piece of equipment in history

[@namelesscrow9351]

@@andyvonbourske6405 They've got a problem with both, to which I point to the B-1, 2, F-22, B-52, all of which has had a accidents, budget cuts and work arounds Yet a couple of people say F-35 bad and suddenly everyone is a fighter pilot...Idk why I'm surprised tbh

[@namyun2743]

@@subjectc7505 If you look at the statistics, the rate of accidents and defects are actually in-line with or lower than the development histories of other fighters. To be fair, any time you're comparing the F-35 to any other fighter, you're actually comparing 3 different fighters. All the fighters and bombers you've listed have had issues in development. You just don't hear about it because they had much friendlier PR, before the age of mass social media.

[@Pablo668]

I’m just taking a moment to appreciate what a good pilot Simba is.

[@douglasarthur2673]

As Cap commented 'He'll appear out of a mountain and do you' 😮 Hardly Marquis of Queensbury rules now !

[@zigmatronik]

"The peoples champ"

[@leepatterson5710]

Is he an USAF pilot? I wasn't sure but it made it seem like he was an F16 ground maintainer (or whatever they are called).

[@Pablo668]

@@leepatterson5710 I was pretty sure he is a pilot irl.

[@TheByQQ]

Honestly I feel like he would've done better if it wasn't for the 2 seconds of ping he had.

[@humanoid83x]

Pierre Sprey didn't desing the F16, or A10 or any fighter aircraft at all.

[@TheHoneyThief]

I think @lazerpig might like a chat with you about Sprey's involvement in the F16 programme.

[@treetrunks4175]

i was about to comment the same thing 🤣

[@hemendraravi4787]

idk man lazerpig is a bit stupid in some of the stuff he says maybe hes right this time.

[@92HazelMocha]

​@@hemendraravi4787Lazerpig is garbage, but not as garbage as Sprey because at least Lazerpig didn't falsely claim to design the F16 lol

[@brankomilicevic6904]

​@@92HazelMochaI wouldn't say he's garbage he's just very very biased and that's ok cause he's still very entertaining. Just people shouldn't take all of his takes as gospel lol

[@92HazelMocha]

@@brankomilicevic6904 I mean he just throws around demstorably false information in an environment where people are looking for hard facts and as a professional YT'er, he's doing it for money. Intentionally misleading people for the purpose of filling your own pockets is to me, garbage behavior. Imagine if GR went out of their way to make sure the US won every war game and pitched it as "realistic simulation". Everyone has a bais, but there's a difference between having a bias and being essentially a propagandist.

[@budgieboi8979]

Very different jets, built for different purposes. If the F-35 is in a dogfight, something has gone VERY wrong

[@valuedhumanoid6574]

You read my mind. I was on my way down here to say almost the exact same thing. Totally different missions and usage.

[@Anonymous______________]

Not true. Any h2h combat involving stealth fighters may lead to a dogfight. This is especially true if both adversaries are using stealth platforms. It's called the stealth / low observable paradox.

[@jeremyaudet3810]

can't hide most things from the mk1 eyeball

[@somethinsomethin7243]

This mentality is how Perrie Sprey gained any credibility in the first place. The exact same thing was said about the F-4 phantom. This is WHY they designed and built the F-16. Look at the stats between an F-4 and the mig 21 and a mig should NEVER touch them then look at the beginning of Vietnam and I think it was 18 F-4 downed for something like 6 mig 21. And even with that knowledge Sprey and John Boyd had to invent new charts, break air craft climb records, create a new conceptual framework called the OODA loop all just to combat the Pentagon bureaucracy that thought the same as this comment. The result was the F-15, F-16 and the A-10.

[@richardhswan8069]

@@somethinsomethin7243 Sprey thinks air-to-air combat hasn't changed since the 1960s. He ignores stealth and the better missiles that have been built since the 1960s. While Boyd and Sprey had some good ideas (not all their ideas - like OODA- were orignal), things change and people (and pilots) must adjust. Sprey hasn't.

[@lonurad1259]

pierre sprey was such a clown. Wasn't even involved in half the things he claimed he was. None of the designers comment on him. He thought BVR dogfights weren't real.

[@subjectc7505]

The F-35 has it's faults, but most modern fighters wouldn't shred the F-35. That guy talks alot of nonsense.

[@jugganaut33]

“It’s faults” - stealth coating rusts after just 1 year on deck of sea trials- fails. Avionics regularly fail and cause the aircraft to crash -4 aircraft in the last year. Only compatible with American munitions. Limited to weapons bay size. That’s before the lack of fuel capacity, slow acceleration and top speed as well as speed limitation due to the stealth coating. It’s a dog. The F22 being 30 years earlier tech is still better. Bearing in mind the JSF was meant to be released 20 years ago. It’s the longest development fighter in history with one of the worst records.

[@subjectc7505]

@@jugganaut33 Those bugs was fixed over years and the F-22 is 80s and can't be upgraded with what the F-35 can be upgraded with.

[@Anonymous______________]

​@@subjectc7505Cope and seeth.

[@SorcererAC0]

@@jugganaut33What plane should've flown?

[@traumateam830]

The F35 is not limited to just American munitions. There are many countries (Ex. Britain) that can put their own munitions on there. It’s also not limited to the weapons bay. Just like the 22, it can mount pylons on its wings if it could afford to sacrifice its RCS. Also one of the main things that annoys me is that people still believe that dogfights are still as relevant in today’s world as they were in WW2. The 35 was never made to dogfight and its whole doctrine was made so that the enemy never even get close enough to initiate a dogfight.

[@thepilotman5378]

F-35 can ABSOLUTELY dogfight and win against a Mig-21. That's a ridiculous claim so say it can't. The F-35 has some serious AOA and thrust that the mig simply doesn't have access too

[@mokka1115]

Sprey had nothing to do with the F16. Nor the A10. Except maybe in regards to reputation and propaganda.

[@36363ace]

I was looking for this comment.

[@CAL1MBO]

He helped the development of the mathematical model on which the F-15 and F-16 are partly designed around. So partially correct

[@Utubesuperstar]

wrong, the only sources that say he did anything of substance are ones he wrote himself. He is a complete fraud and an imbecile. @@CAL1MBO

[@exidy-yt]

"There was no body lift on 1960s aircraft." Saab 35 Draken enters the chat.

[@Lexicon-ff6or]

The Mig in the second fight was an absolute Chad. It somehow survived taking a missile to the face and then still managed to fin the fight lol

[@CAL1MBO]

That's badass. I wish we had a full development module in DCS for MiG-21-2000 / MiG-21 LanceR / MiG-21 Bison!

[@drupiROM]

As a Romanian i would have like the LanceR but it would be very limited by it's short range and loadout. Also there were three varians of the LanceR, one for air to air, one for ground attack and one double seatter for training. But Romania retired these, this year so the Israeli avionics might still be classified.

[@Dragonman1OOO]

@@drupiROM Those avionics in the LanceRs are like 25 years old at least so I don't thinks so.

[@drupiROM]

@@Dragonman1OOO Yes, but i guess that the RoAF and Elbit Systems in Israel get to decide that, not ED or us ;)

[@treetrunks4175]

Pierre spray was very much not involved in the developement of the f16 mate. Good vid though!

[@stevenreddy6842]

Everything Pierre Sprey says shall be considered to be false, he has no idea what he’s talking about and never has.

[@ShionWinkler]

Wooo, hold up there... Sprey was never involved with the design or development of any aircraft ever. He was a grade A liar and con man.

[@mstevens113]

Colonel Robin Olds (Google him if you don't know him, fascinating history) fought the mig21 in Vietnam and said it was a disappointing aircraft. If an F4 pilot thought that then it is fair to say an F35 pilot is going to call it target practice.

[@CAL1MBO]

This was just propaganda. The US Air Force have done lots of tests on the MiG-21 (available online to read) and they concluded it's very dangerous in a dogfight against F-14 and even F-15.

[@jimmcneal5292]

F-4 was generation above mig 21, of course it shredded it. If anything the actual opponent of Mig-21 should be F-104

[@mstevens113]

@@CAL1MBO F4 pilots sussed it out, they soon learned not to get into a turning fight, they would use their extra power to pull away and make slashing attacks, come in fire a missile and pull away again (granted with limited success, that being down to first generation missile limitations and poor reliability) . It's all down to tactics and training and using your own strengths, not being pulled into fighting how your enemy wants to fight.

[@xpk0228]

Sprey is not a real designer tho. F35 back in 2015 has all kinds of G limits and AoA limits so that it doesn't do well in ACM. Today tho, it can win against clean F16s while carrying 2x 2000lb bombs in the bay and drop them after ACM training is over.

[@Shadowboost]

It gets wasted by a F-16N

[@xpk0228]

@@Shadowboost this is just like what, A4 kills an F14 in Top Gun? Very possible if you consider the guy in F16 is supposed to be an instructor. Hell, even F15 can lose to T38s in ACM when experience matters

[@Shadowboost]

@@xpk0228 performance. Guns fight, the F-16N demolishes the F-35

[@jimmcneal5292]

Bruh, such a copium

[@Shadowboost]

@@jimmcneal5292 you realize the F-16N can pull over 9.3G? And that's with the lower thrust F110 without the updated intake that gives another 3000 lb thrust

[@andymontemayor175]

The f-35 was supposed to have the best qualities of the f-18 and the f-16 coupled with stealth and sensor fusion, Pierre spray can say whatever he wants, but the pilots that come from both f-18, f-16 , f-15 lines ,say they would fly the f-35 into combat anytime.

[@pogo1140]

As long as they don't have to fight WVR. Once in the phone booth, any 9g plane with OBS missile or a gun will be a problem.

[@somethinsomethin7243]

You are right the guy that helped design the F-15 and F-16 with John Boyd has NO IDEA what makes a good fighter. Also the F-18 is the direct descendant of the F-17 the loser of the F-16 fly off. So EVERY aircraft you mentioned had its parameters that made it successful laid out in large part to Pierre Sprey, and the rest of the fighter Mafia.

[@92HazelMocha]

Doesn't carry fox2's into combat, only 1/3 have guns, can't carry standoff weapons, only 4 hard points, can't break mach 2, limited fuel capacity in practice. It definitely doesn't have the best qualities of either of those aircraft. As a sensor platform it's amazing, as an actual fighter it's subpar.

[@ADR1fley]

@@somethinsomethin7243 You are either wholly ignorant or a blatant shill. Pierre Sprey literally has contributed nothing to aviation, ever. He is a no one that says the right nonsense to sham Russian media, who will happily publish things smearing the newest-greatest thing from the US. He not only doesn't know how to make a good fighter, he even claimed credit (that wasn't his, as he does) for a BAD fighter, that never even made it off the metaphorical napkin.

[@kinematics7092]

​@pogo1140 so it's a good thing the F-35A is also a 9G, 50 degree AoA, HOBS plane too

[@AndrewFernie]

Pierre Sprey was named for the stuff he "spreyed" everywhere whenever he opened his mouth...

[@nukerock2451]

When Matrix was flying the Mig-21 against Dark after losing his ailerons, the immortal Monty Python / John Cleese words came to mind. " 'Tis but a scratch. I've had worse. C'mon you pansy!" 🤣 Excellent and very enjoyable video, guys!

[@dereksteneman9657]

Friendly F22 pilot here; F35 not designed to BFM (aka dogfight) but designed for multi-role, stealth, peer adversary penetration. F35 sensor suite is top notch with ability to jam, shoot and blow through enemy fighters. In non-stealth “beast mode” they load up external A-A missiles and rain hate. Great data link etc etc etc. people freaked out circa 2014-2015 when an F35 got tracked in BFM by an F-16. No shock to us… annoying media fodder. Looking forward to this!! You guys rock!!

[@KayronTheFifth]

Ah, Pier Spray... so what *did* he do on the F-16? He makes big claims, but I've never heard what he actually did regarding the F-16. I don't think he even brought the people working on it coffee...

[@jmtpolitico80]

Well that went the way I figured it would! But that was exciting and educating. Thanks Team GR!!!

[@josephvarno5623]

One thing to keep in mind is that RT is an abbreviation for Russia Today and is considered an arm of the Russian government. Taking the statements and stories of the "media" outlet with a grain of salt should be a grain size of a small mountain.

[@SimonsAuntPhyllis]

Damn Cap, that first group run in the 35 was preeetttyyy! 2 shots - 2 kills

[@thecollective1633]

great example of why the best plane with a crap pilot can still lose. Pilot training is so important and I wish it was something we could get in the larger naval battles and scenarios between factions.

[@artao5]

The MiG-21 can rudder-only roll amazingly well really. Even with only two half-wings let alone no ailerons.

[@Dragonman1OOO]

Cap since you guys like doing reenactments here is another idea with the MiG-21! Remember the 1980s fictional war movie "Red Dawn" there was a downed F-15A pilot who said in the movie he was dogfighting with five MiG-21s. So video title: "Could five 80s MiG-21 shoot down an F-15A model in a dogfight?". Attempt 1: AI MiG-21s vs AI F-15A Attempt 2: AI MiG-21s vs Human F-15A Attempt:3: Human MiG-21s vs AI F-15A Attempt 4: Human MiG-21s vs Human F-15A

[@King_Dusty_Of_Pookytopia]

How ironic. The MIG-21 is massively upgraded but the F-35A is almost equally massively vdowngraded. Almost all of the F-35 avionics hasn't been modeled as of yet.

[@PyromaN93]

Anyway, for such old airframe such performance is surprisingly good

[@conan670431]

Cap the Mig-21 has the best turning /lift/nose control if you go "take off flaps" when merged as they will stay up until you lose enough speed and than they deploy giving you very good turning circle..... Non of the guys used flaps I guess in this one ?

[@5Andysalive]

given that the F-35 isn't even supposed to end up in a dogfight it's doing remarkably well.

[@francom8938]

Its been proven it rates the same as a clean F-16 so yea the f35 is no joke in a dogfight

[@Tenchigumi]

So I'm a relatively new spectator for DCS, but why doesn't the F35 mods have their cockpit yet? I get that it's an unofficial mod, but considering how its instrument panel is basically one big flat panel monitor, and that other unofficial mods have much more complex approximations of their cockpits, I'm curious as to why Fat Amy has been neglected.

[@gavin1506]

Modders like to close to real thing. While flat panels are there, it's difficult to replicate as it's classified. Mig29 for example you can see it online if you google.

[@Venom2U]

"run to the hills...........Run for your life" Name that band? Iron Maiden....

[@squiremc]

It may have been Laserpig who pointed out a number of bad calls by Sprey. I think he also suggested he was not pivotal to the development of much at all (ready to be corrected on this). I don't think I trust his judgement on much.

[@ADR1fley]

Not only not pivotal, straight up had no part in it.

[@WyattJohnson-ll5kj]

Are we ignoring that thr f-35 helmet mounted display allows the f-35 to shoot missiles at things that are behind it

[@TerraStory225MYA]

In these dim times it’s easy for me to feel down. But the consistency and quality of Grim Reapers videos always puts me in a good mood!

[@up4open]

The kind of guy who would say "The Starship by SpaceX is such a bad fighter..."

[@Echowhiskeyone]

While the F-35 was not designed to be a dog fighter, but it can hold its own against most modern aircraft and would be at a disadvantage against a few, like the F-16. One of the biggest advantages of the F-35 is sensor fusion, which is not too useful is a visual fight.

[@Anonymous______________]

So the whole "sensor fusion" technology" hasn't beared its fruits yet and by the time Lockhead Martin upgrades the F-35 with these features, it will have already been replaced by the NGAD and 1.5 trillion dollars over budget.

[@mcgherkinstudios]

Actually DAS will continuously track the opposing aircraft so the pilot can never lose tally, no matter where they go.

[@joshuasenior4370]

In a real scenario where the F-16 has external stores the F-35 is at an advantage

[@Bellthorian]

That is absolute NONSENSE. The F-35 was designed to dog fight, it was designed to fall in between an F-16 and an F-18. Carrying a combat payload it eats F-16's and F-18's ALIVE.

[@lohrtom]

Cap, if you can tinker with the F-35 specs can you do a dogfight between the current F-35 and an F-35 with the new Adaptive Engine the F-35 is probably going to get? It provides 30% more range because it is more efficient, 10% more thrust and twice the thermal management. Not sure exactly how it works but it can change airflow through and over the engine as needed for better performance. It would be interesting to see how much more of an edge it would give it in a fight.

[@Anarchy_420]

Lmao I still remember when The F-35 Cockpit display was The MIG-21 Bis ;) Come a long way since then!👍👍

[@boeing-lt4el]

If an F-35 (or F-22 or future NGAD) is dogfighting, something has gone terribly wrong. These are snipers from the shadows, taking out targets long before ACM, ideally the target spontaneously explodes before anybody on the red team even knew they were there.

[@ryanspencer6778]

Against Gen 4 fighters this is true. But fights against Gen 5 will be much closer with maneuverability being more important and a higher likelihood (though still quite unlikely) of ending in a merge. Probably not something the F-35 will ever really need to care about, at least not until late in it's lifespan, but future designs should take it into consideration.

[@sethperron8204]

@@ryanspencer6778the F-35 will be very very late in its lifespan if that is ever a true worry. F-22 will be long dead before that happens and the NGAD will be the generation advancer that countries will need to catch up again

[@jaxompol224]

They had your number in the mig 21 cap and went beast mode all over your hills no matter how much you ran like a maiden

[@thalo215]

Pierre Sprey talked more crap than a fleet of trash trucks. His opinion on anything is highly suspect.

[@LazerPig]

::Angry pig noises::

[@danielmolinar8669]

Damn, I never expected the PIG to be here, along with the fans. Just hidden in plain sight. Apparently, no else did too.

[@iwalkmygoose7732]

This shows the dog fighting capabilities but in real life the mig wouldn't even be able to see the f35 and it would already be dead from some type of fox 3 missle

[@Anarchy_420]

I'd love to see The F-15E VS The F-35A! Battle of the fat girls!😆👍

[@jagerdergroe8604]

Whenever the F35 is in a video there are two types of comments, half that scream that the F35 is a better dogfighter than the Viper and the other half that scream it wasn't designed for dogfighting.

[@VITOLLFOTOGRAFIA]

Not at all, in fact all people here said F16 is better dogfigtter.

[@yujinhikita5611]

@@VITOLLFOTOGRAFIA nope i have seen peope say the f35 is a better dogfighter, which i agree with. they both fight different ways and so the fight is really 50/50. but the reason for the f35 being better is two fold. it can not lose sight of the enemy aircraft and it fights the 1 circle better while having decent 2 circle capability, the missile will kill the f16 before he has turned around. if the f35 pilot is shit and shoots bad shots. and the f16 is clean or close to being clean, which good luck finding that,then the f16 can out rate the f35 and probably win. but then again the control of the f35 is way more precise than the f16 and it might lead to a reversal in which case it goes back to the f35. so its really hard to say who is the better dogfighter because the dogfight is never a guarantee.

[@dereksteneman9657]

“Visual” = you see your wingman/freidndly “Tally” = you see bandit “Contact” = you see ground target as briefed or pointed out

[@R3aper251]

There is no way if that the Mig could carry on flying with such control damage as it was.

[@wolfgangjr74]

We got f-15's flying with one wing. They wouldnt be able to dogfight anymore though.

[@buckybarns5984]

Pitting a mig 21 against an f-35 is like a 3 month old baby fighting a pit bull named princes

[@TomDog5812]

If the F-35 was flown by a 15 year old, maybe.

[@ZAKKANWAKKAR]

Why would an F-35 get involved in a dogfight?

[@jugganaut33]

Because the enemy always has a say!? The S400 radar locked a F35 escorting A rivet joint off the coast of Syria from 150km. In an asymmetrical warfare the F35 like all strike aircraft would have to fly map of the earth. Limiting target acquisition to 25km at which point a F35 would be visible to SU35 or J35 radar. … Or in this case probably an Iranian Modernised shitcan launched from an mountain bunker runway

[@martinsvensson6884]

Because things going wrong.

[@ZAKKANWAKKAR]

@@martinsvensson6884 That's what the GETTHE HELLOUT button is for.

[@whousley]

I recall from past GR videos that that mig is a bit tough and sometimes needs a double tap.

[@grimreapers]

Roger

[@corvanphoenix]

It's not *that* tough, lol!

[@byzantinehoney3384]

@@corvanphoenixcope

[@brealistic3542]

where the mig 21 might have a advantage is ROLL RATE . the Mig 21 rolls very very fast. P47 pilots used the jugs outstanding roll rate to combat tighter turning Me109s. It does take some very fancy roll maneuvers to do it thou.

[@dominicmccrimmon]

Thank you for doing this. So many good videos! Because it's still for sale, people never get tired of everything vs. F-35 multi role.

[@GRZNGT]

What next? PE2 (1921) training paper plane Vs. F-5000 Interstellar Mega Bomber that can annihilate a star system across a hundred parsec? Sure, seems like an equal fight, lol

[@tuskegee87]

I would love to see a Simba vs Cap all out dogfight marathon ACM, BFM, BVR,

[@Janno32_]

Isn't it so that the f35 can lock the enemy behind it so a dogfight would be over in 10 seconds?

[@michaelszczekot8729]

Pierre Sprey didn’t design anything

[@Bellthorian]

No the MIG-21 would have no chance against a F-35 in a Dogfight. The MIG-21 couldn't even handle F-4's in Vietnam.

[@gingeryam9227]

P. Sprey, the man who told the USAF that the F-15 design was useless and tried to remove everything on it, failed miserably, and then said that the F-15 and F-16 was his design

[@vonsmutt4254]

Iron Maiden with Bruce Dickinson

[@mikeck4609]

Great vid cap….but it’s Such a ridiculous criticism of the F-35 considering that it IS quite maneuverable; can pull its nose around better than a hornet and has a better thrust-to-weight than an F-16 (when both are carrying an air to air loadout and similar fuel states. Since there hasn’t been anything resembling a real dogfight since 1982 AND modern fighters all have high off boresite missles with JHMCS and can kill you if you are anywhere within the front 180 degree hemisphere of their aircraft…dogfighting for a firing position is moot.

[@Los-Angeles_AttackSubmarine]

@lazerpig would lose his marbles😂😂

[@jrizos06]

Great Sunday video, Cap et al

[@dereksteneman9657]

To get a gun kill you MUST have these three; In range (

[@samwang1439]

Brrrrrrrrrr “THAT’S ME!”

[@M101K3]

And this time the "Oh Bollocks!" was provided by Cap. Everybody Drink!

[@corneraction6765]

liked the iron maiden reference 10/10 definitely will run to the hills

[@MrRobertX70]

Regardless of how many of your videos I've seen in the past, the complete lack of skill that you exhibit never ceases to amaze me!

[@Four9sFineJewelry]

Cap becomes Wyatt Earp with the guns dang!

[@Your_Average_Warthunderer]

See now, When you put an F35 Lightning against a Mig-21, the F35 will see him about 100 miles away launch a missile and go about it's day before the mig-21 even realizes there's a plane in front of him that just got a missile off, And by the time he realizes its either to late or he's floating down to earth in a parachute.

[@lordsqueak]

@19:58 ish Ah, Cap must be thinking of the Andy Rehfeldt cover version of run to the hills. ;)

[@dsong2006]

you should've used the Chinese J-7G variant of the MiG-21, its got modernized double delta wing and better engines then this one which makes it the most maneuverable version

[@wind_runner6836]

There is this whole documentary I encourage you to watch (It is very good) about Pierre Sprey and how he isn't at all what he claims to be and is nothing but a liar. It lays out a lot of evidence to show he didn't have anything to do with the development of any jets and he was just like a government procurement guy who hung around a lot of people. The whole group of Fighter Mafias were just old dudes who couldn't get with the times. I would again encourage you to look into any person claiming anything about being the single designer of a jet and then giving that guy credit on KZbin. The documentary is by Lazer Pig anyway he is a really good historian. It's titled Shut up about the F-35. He also got Pierre Sprey taken off Wikipedia for the A-10.

[@valuedhumanoid6574]

When I practice against the AI Mig 21 Bis set to ACE mode in the F-16C it's a very tough fight. It's every bit as agile as the Falcon. But the HMD, modern weapons and all the other advantages the Falcon has gives me a huge advantage. But make one mistake and you're toast. I can only imagine an upgraded model and how it would level the field.

[@CAL1MBO]

The MiG-21 AI is currently broken since March 2023.

[@valuedhumanoid6574]

@@CAL1MBO What do you mean, broken?

[@Shadowboost]

​@@valuedhumanoid6574meaning it's not as maneuverable as a F-16 IRL

[@valuedhumanoid6574]

@@Shadowboost For a Gen 3 fighter it has exceptional agility. No, I don't believe it's as good as a Falcon, but it's no slouch either. And that's all I was trying to convey. In reality it would not stand a prayer in a straight up fight. But if you were distracted and engaged with another task it could easily give you problems, more than any other Gen 3 airframe. Like the F5E Tiger II. You would rip the wings off attempting to stay with a Falcon. lol

[@Gunfreak19]

​@@CAL1MBOit's always been broken, but while other jets got their AI BFM upgrade, this does not seem to have applied to the MiG15 and MIG21 so the AI have the same insane energy retention and turn rate all the AI used to have before the BFM AI upgrade

[@nyanzan9568]

IRL the 35 would probably have just missiled the mig from far away.

[@ShootBlueHelmets]

The aileron fight was like the black knight on Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail.😂

[@dereksteneman9657]

More assists for you badass men; BFM is all about turn circle geometry, rate and radius (EM diagram). -High aspect BFM at rapid Line of Sight put Lift Vector on Bandit and execute a break turn… start between 425-450kts…. Stop break turn when LOS slows and HOLD airspeed around 380-400kts… look for heat wez When in doubt keep lift vector ON always. Use all available turning room Corner velocity (CV) for most fighters is around 360-380kts. This is your smallest turn Circe and best rate (how fast you go around the Circe). Never go below 180kts (unless you’re in a raptor) never go faster than 500kts…. Turn Circe gets too big! So much to talk about but start here…

[@user-qx2ec7oe9p]

The f-35 the whole body is the lifting surface with many more additional sensors... beating a mig 21... thats absurd. Rumors say its roughly as maneuverable as the f-18.

[@kershkomlev4440]

the chances of getting K.O.'d by MiG are not so high.... BUT NEVER ZERO!!!!!

[@0BLACKESTFUN0]

one is made for dogfights and close combat the other has the task to fly undetected and dump missles at targets

[@peterb2272]

Could a modernized Mig-21 REALLY beat the F-35 in a Dogfight? Well if you switched off the F-35 radar, switched off all its sensor suites and Defensive aids, compromised its stealth and let the Mig21 sneak up in it and not let the F35 dogfight, then yes. It could beat an F-35. 🙄

[@OzcarMike641]

Mr. Sprey is mistaken.

[@deanspanos8210]

A new Growling-wait a minute.

[@Ingens_Scherz]

Run to the Hills? That's the great British prog rock group Iron Leopard, isn't it? From Margate.

[@t.r.4496]

Pierre Michel Sprey (November 22, 1937 - August 5, 2021) was a record producer and purported defense analyst. Working with John Boyd and Thomas P. Christie at the Pentagon, he was associated with the self-dubbed 'Fighter Mafia', which advocated the use of energy-maneuverability theory in fighter jet design. There is no evidence of his actual involvement with US military aviation programmes. This right here tells you all you need to know about this 🤡.

[@lukethedrifter8302]

Cap busting out some Iron Maiden.🤘 The Trooper is my fav.

[@grimreapers]

Yup Trooper's a classic!

[@BCSchmerker]

+GrimReapersAtomic *Aeronavale (FRA) / Lockheed Martin F-35 Charlie* (CFM International A100-GE-400, General Dynamics 25x137mm GAU-22/U) *vs. Syrian Arab Air Force / Mikojan-Gurjevich-21bis Kopjo Forsirovann'yj* (OKB Vlaimira Klimova RD-33F-300, 23x115mm Gast gun with 100 rounds per barrel).