Groove Metal band debate with Liam Cormier of Cancer Bats | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)

[@Nightbreed82]

Late '80s/ Early '90s White Zombie for sure! Thunderkiss '65 has more groove than any other song by any other band. Not to mention, Pantera used to party with them, and Dimebag used to sport White Zombie shirts, so the connection/influence is obvious.

[@mr.potatohead6138]

Groove is thrashers who smoke weed rather than drink alcohol 🤣

[@luluskywo]

tell that to dimebag

[@superunknown2812]

Hahahaha

[@azrealthedemonking6663]

I do both xD

[@prizm2807]

I smoke and drink but I'll turn down a night of drinking for a night of smoking 100 times out of a 100

[@jeremiahpapa7868]

Booze gets in the way of my milk and chocolate chip remedy for the blood sugar dip 😉

[@brucenatelee]

My list: Pantera, Exhorder, Lamb of God, Sepultura, Soulfly, Intractable, Five Finger Death Punch, and Prong. I listened to Crowbar's Sever the Wisked Hand and, yes, there are faster songs at a mid tempo. I was confused how they are just sludge. Maybe groove sludge? Gojira is like a mix of groove, prgressive, and melodic death metal. The post-Pantera bands, like Superjoint Ritual (Phil), Damage Plan (Dimebag), Hell Yeah (Vinnie), and Kill Devil Hill (Rex), all with members of Pantera, kinda kept some of that groove metal element. I guess they couldn't let go of what the built for so many years. Sucks Dimebag can't see today's influences.

[@cabalofdemons]

Prong, Machine Head, Pantera, Biohazard, Exhorder, Soulfly. I LOVE Crowbar and I can understand why one can consider the band groove metal. It has elements of hardcore and post-thrash. But I consider Crowbar a sludge/doom metal band. BUT the band can play with any of the bands on the board.

[@omarsalkamusic]

Chimaira is a band no one brings up, but they had lots of grooves and very well-written songs.

[@SleepFan771]

Prong, Pantera, & Lamb of God are the must listen Groove Metal bands to me. Riffs, albums, influence, and premier songwriting and musicianship amongst all 3.

[@PretoriaShadows]

DevilDriver should be considered for the tree yes they started out as a melo death band but most of their discography has been more groove inspired, their sound has changed since fury of our makers hand, they incorperated more groovy riffs as well as the intensity that trash has ,they have been around the block and Dezes vocals really compliment the groove with his vocal delivery and the use of chugy guitars, as well as the groove that makes you want to bang your head they have been around forever and has inspired so many bands to pick up the style,yes Pantera started it all but DevilDriver made it theirs especially when it comes to lives

[@dearlydemented19ify]

Get out of my rowboat.

[@triplehood]

*thrash ;)

[@PretoriaShadows]

Yes but they still embrace the groove that pantera instigated

[@MLToasted420]

It's like these guys never saw their merch with "Californian Groove Metal" written on it :p . I'm a die hard Devildriver tattoo having fan here. I just have to say the first album was groove metal personified. After Evan left and Mike came in was a big change in writing/structuring of songs but still maintained a groove. Now we have Neil who gave us Daybreak and still is awesome.

[@m00rtin4]

Pretoria Shadows DD def is groove/thrash. It was more groove oriented with their first album. Then later until now they have pushed more to mixing groove with thrash

[@GarryLarryBarry]

"Gojira and Meshuggah are more like Fear Factory than Groove Metal" That's because Fear Factory are Groove Metal!

[@jacktowers7533]

Machine Head, yes! Burn My Eyes alongside Chaos A.D and Vulgar are the ground zero groove metal records \M/

[@gurnblanston5000]

Jack Towers "Walk" was big in the day.

[@jondubb35]

Jack Towers Yes! These 3 albums are THE most influential groove metal albums!

[@Christian-vq8rd]

Gojira's first three albums are totally groove death.

[@aryanpugilist]

nah it's more like stoner skullfuck doom pixie thrash, dude

[@jasonvegan5761]

Biggest mistake of the debate was not mentioning Grip Inc AT ALL!! :( Great discussion other than that! Nice to see Exhorder get some love as well. But come on, Grip Inc is the definition of post thrash which is what Liam was calling groove metal. What happened?

[@dzonigrandz]

Grip Inc rules ! Better than Pantera and Machine Head

[@fjmization]

Truth-Grip Inc are criminally underrated, and belong in this conversation just as much as Exhorder. In that musically karmic realm how cool is it that Jason Viebrooks is now in Exhorder, though? Acid Bath (the not punk band), Soilent Green, and EHG are all better than Lamb Of God.

[@JAG214]

Groove metal laid the foundations for nu metal in the 1990s and some development of metalcore in the 2000s.

[@rexxcolt7689]

for sure you can def hear it in metalcore.

[@thewarrior6784]

Of course, since nu metal was directly derived from groove metal!

[@TheSolfilm]

Do you always mix so low your volume ?? I am obliged to put all my devices at full volume to hear something at a decent level (if I forget that factor and the next song I put after this video is Angel of Death, my neighbours gonna like it :-) )

[@ryanvaubel7186]

Anyone ever hear of a band in the early 90's called Panic? They released two albums and sound very similar to Pantera and Exhorder, very groove oriented Thrash metal

[@roberthughes286]

Cavalera Conspiracy??? You guys mention both Sepultura, Soulfly and Gojira. The great band/reunion collaboration ever. The two Cavalera brothers making music together and Joe from Gojira playing bass for them on one album.

[@MrNightfall079]

It's so cool to see other people who love to dissect and debate metal and music in general as much as I do.Showing some love for ZZ Top!

[@mstafford75]

Glad you added Exhorder! If you didn't know, the singer Kyle Thomas is currently the singer for Trouble, was the singer for Alabama Thunderpussy and also was in a great band in the late 90s called Floodgate that was still very much in the groove camp.

[@ThyArtIsMetal]

The bridge between Gojira and at least Sepultura and Lamb of God is that Joe from Gojira played bass for Cavalera Conspiracy, which was arguably groove metal as well. Of course Randy from Lamb of God appeared on the Gojira song Adoration for None and Gojira opened for Lamb of God in one of their first big U.S. tours right around when Mars to Sirius came out. I'd say Gojira are safely groove metal.

[@metaldad79]

I'd say cc is thrash

[@Direksone]

Gojira is so much more than Groove Metal. They have super technical stuff going on. They're definately more Tech Death than Groove.

[@jackiethompson7446]

id say you're right w/ the exception of literally 1 song...1 song...sanctuary

[@ryanvaubel7186]

Exhorder sounds heavier than Pantera and more of a thrash band than groove. Anybody else?

[@TheBoomBoxGuru]

Their first album was definitely thrash.

[@octavia458]

I see it as thrash that builds to groove.

[@tsarnicholasii7469]

Yes

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

They are the better, heavier, funnier Pantera

[@ConvincingPeople]

Exhorder, like death metal pioneers Possessed, exist in that strange superposition where they are unquestionably an '80s thrash band but also clearly the beginning of something new and different. If considered in the context of the thrash boom, they are something of an outlier, of which that period produced many; if considered within the context of later groove bands, however, they gain far more significance.

[@Grindermetalhead]

I was starting to get into metal back in the early-mid 90's, at the time when the whole "groove metal" scene was already in full swing, and I don't remember groove being considered a sub-genre of metal back then. It was more of an umbrella term that music magazines later invented in order to refer to bands that were popular at the time and were touring together. Bands like Pantera, White Zombie, Fear Factory, Prong, Pro-Pain, Biohazard, Sepultura, Machine Head etc. I don't even think many of those bands themselves embraced the term to describe the style of music they played.

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

Tend to agree. Although those bands indeed share musical similarities, it’s not like there ever was a “groove metal scene”

[@juehring007]

I hit an 8 instead of 9...but hey got me best comment of the week!!!

[@TheNastyhaze]

Can you fix the sound issue? Sometimes it is broken, sometimes, like now it is pretty quiet. Anyhow, great show! Keep it up!

[@doomusrlc]

last bit... how is Pro Pain not mentioned???

[@jonpresley1163]

Derek Albert AND pro pain accessories

[@bulelangbam3217]

Pissing razor,skinlab,exhorder,grip inc,Machine head...are pure groove metal bands

[@benjaminlavoie9310]

I believe that Acid Bath could have used a mention. "When the kite sting pops" album is a great listen.

[@xeverettx2564]

Absolutely. It’s like this. Instead of calling it groove metal it should honestly be called NOLA Metal. You could easily make a top ten list of classic quality bands from New Orleans alone!!

[@jackko21]

Groove metal is my favourite subgenre of metal

[@vgmaster9]

I think Lock Horns should air on a Saturday. I'm not able to watch live because of work.

[@Nightbreed82]

News flash...many people work on Saturday too.

[@vgmaster9]

***** They should be doing what is convenient for EVERYONE. I'm sure as hell not the only person who wants to see it live.

[@Nightbreed82]

There is no sure thing as "convenient for everyone". There are going to be people that can't watch no matter what day/time it airs. If you want your opinion shared, write it on their social media pages the day before.

[@alphaenemy]

Crowbar is not groove metal.

[@jackko21]

Groove metal lyrical themes toughness strenght

[@Flipsh0t]

These need to be longer honestly.

[@gurnblanston5000]

Flipsh0t 2 to 4 hours easy.

[@hydraglyphics]

I know they mentioned them briefly, but I think Fear Factory should definitely be on this tree. They put forth a great blend of fast-paced thrash elements and that constant head-nod vibe that Liam was talking about. I always considered the "Big 4" of groove to be Pantera, LoG, MH, and FF.

[@jasonvegan5761]

I fully agree that Fear Factory has lots of groove to their music!! But I think they fit better in the Industrial Metal genre.

[@jimmyneeson]

I'm torn, they do have electronics and go a bit mechanical on the riffs... but to me, FF sounds way more like Machine Head or Chaos AD era Seps than they do like Ministry or NIN or anyone like that. They're like a groove burger with industrial ketchup. There's an industrial flavour but the bulk is groove. They sit in both happily.

[@MAHS777]

BIG 4 AMERICAN IT'S GOOD, EXCEPT LAMB OF GOD, BECAUSE THESE BAND IT'S MORE GRINDCORE-THRASH-DEATH THAN GROOVE, HONESTLY BODY COUNT HAVE MORE GROOVE ATTITUDE, AND TEAM UP WITH THE OTHER 3. BUT IN GROOVE METAL, ONLY THERE 3 GRAND BANDS O THREE KINGS: SEPULTURA (MAX ERA), PANTERA (1990-2000) AND THE ONE SURVIVOR MACHINE HEAD

[@m00rtin4]

Lucas T FF is industrial metal

[@jimbowen8973]

Prong! - Cleansing is a great album. The opening riff to Broken Peace IS the definition of Groove.

[@BRO77TX]

ESPECIALLY Snap Your Fingers, Snap Your Neck!! One of my all-time groove (head-bobber) songs!!

[@Christhegopher94]

Sludge doesn't have to be slow, just dirty. Think early Mastodon. Or High On Fire.

[@xeverettx2564]

That is an excellent point!!!!

[@VCCassidy]

I agree with the assertion that there's no such thing as "groove" metal. Groove is a style, not a genre. Hardcore and Metalcore employs grooves, Stoner and Sludge employs grooves, Thrash indulges grooves every now and then and Nu Metal uses grooves too. It's just a style of riffing. If you take a look at any supposed list of groove metal bands--including this one--the bands wildly vary in terms of genre, scene, geography and aesthetic. No. Such. Thing. "Post-thrash" might be a more useful term for bands like Lamb of God and Pantera, but it's still a pretty tiny genre.

[@moonspell6759]

I agree

[@VCCassidy]

Grooves are too amorphous and ubiquitous to use as a genre identifier. What if we took every band that played slow and called it all Doom Metal? Doom bands have more specifics to distinguish themselves than just the way their instruments are played. Other than head-bobbing guitar riffs, what do all of these bands have in common?

[@treffbennett6534]

Cassidy-you nailed it! No one can even define what this so-called genre is....my cranium hurts!

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

Exactly. The closest to a genre uniformity you get is Pantera, Exhorder, Lamb of God. That’s 3 bands...

[@NullVoid241]

You could just put BLS in New Wave Of American Heavy Metal

[@legendlemmylivetowin7185]

Horns up from Norway Banger RULES!!!

[@dmitryowens]

How could you guys forget Helmet? Meantime has some serious groove metal on it and is just a wickedly heavy album. Also as far as lesser-known bands, there's Souls At Zero and Cyclone Temple, who were both totally kick-ass.

[@thrashmaniac99]

What were the other magnets behind Sam? I noticed Trivium, Corrosion of Conformity, and Fear Factory so I'm curious what were the other bands on magnets behind?

[@jimmyneeson]

The most archytipcal Groove Metal band of all time has probably got to be Pissing Razors. They basically sound like the exact results of putting Far Beyond Driven, Chaos AD, Demanufacture + Cleansing (minus the industrial tinges) and Burn My Eyes in a blender. Alright, they aren't very famous and some people would argue aren't even very good, (personal taste being irrelevant to genre classification though) but, Cast Down The Plague and their self titled are like the most Groove Metal albums ever. Like, in the pure raw generic 'this is what it sounds like' way, regardless of quality or fame.

[@savagebrutality1]

Pissing Razors are the shit

[@deathwish2955]

I think PISSING RAZORS, SKINLAB and BODY COUNT should be added to the chart those three bands have contributed a lot to the scene from the 90's to the 00's ...lots of post thrash in their music.

[@CrackaJackFlash]

Faith No More should probably be on here. Every album the band put out is extremely notable for this subset of metal. Lots of groove between the vocals, bass, and drums, while the guitar playing sounds closest to thrash and hardcore.

[@craigcoady3219]

what bands will be left for new wave of american metal

[@TheFlameBladeWielder]

bands can fit in both NWOAM and their own respective genres, because NWOAM is a movement not a genre, there's no sound they need to fit into, just a time and a place.

[@jasonvegan5761]

Nice, HR! I was just thinking that the "New Wave of American Metal" category can be broken down into actual genres, instead of just a general "catch-all" like NWOAM. A lot of the NWOAM bands are groove, metalcore, deathcore, alt metal, post hardcore, nu metal!!

[@prodigy-ke7sl]

Upon A Burning Body has been groove metal for quite some time now. If this ever gets updated, I definitely think they deserve a slot up there.

[@jmgmarcus808]

Love all your work and effort, please give some love to blue cheer and its members especially Randy Holden and his solo album. I listen to the second Blue Cheer Record every day it's so doo my and heavy oh God please show the people about them! Thank You.

[@much_love]

Im missing Life of Agony

[@RetroHabit82]

Right! River Runs Red is a groove machine!

[@much_love]

Track 11 is even called 'Method of Groove'. This list is incomplete! haha

[@matheusmotta1132]

Biohazard, Exhorder, White Zombie, 90s Sepultura, Pantera, Machine Head, Soulfly

[@BornFromTheGrave]

2 Ton Predator, Machine Head, Pantera & Chimaira comes to mind when I think of groove metal.

[@BornFromTheGrave]

How about SOULS AT ZERO? Anybody remember those guys, I think they fit that format in my Opinion.

[@hinjurock70]

Yes! They were fucking great. Major Pantera influence like Machine Head, but done better.

[@DystopianJoe]

Exhorder was a thrash band from the swamp who's vocalist sounded like Anselmo. The record company made them mix their first album to sound like "Beneath The Remains". "Slaughter in the Vatican" is a brutal album, but it's influence on groove metal is overstated.

[@uuuuu1111]

Groove Metal can range from Pantera to Sepultura to Prong to Machine Head. I definitely think of that transitional early 90s moment. One might even consider how there was kind of a mid-tempo groove on Metallica's Black Album of the time. And Helmet was kind of partaking in that kind of post-thrash mid-tempo grooving sound then. And definitely White Zombie. Just like you might associate Nu Metal with more of a 'moment' around the late '90s, Groove Metal is related to a transitional moment in the early '90s.

[@underdogentertainment8266]

Sooo; "Post Thrash". Then what about Metallicas Black Album and Megadeths Countdown To Extinction, is that Groove Metal? They're slower and weightier than their earlier output, and does have a certain groove to them. And are most def. Post Thrash...

[@gurnblanston5000]

Underdog Entertainment Thrash & roll, swingin' thrash, etc. Pantera was country & thrash in places; Metallica became thrash & western to a degree.

[@Helicondrummer]

Agreed post-thrash would be more fitting used for those examples

[@nestorgonzalez]

there were like 5 magnets that were not used, I wonder what are those bands

[@MetalTrenches]

Magma is a groove metal/hard rock album. Their earlier stuff I would mostly call progressive.

[@jahdavid9663]

how about some Acid Bath? any thoughts?

[@Chuloloc]

Awesome. Thank you, Sam. Hail Banger TV.

[@neighslayer768]

Hey I saw that Fear Factory magnet. You know they belong up there. FF have more in common with Pantera then they do with Rammstein.

[@jondubb35]

Helmet has the unfortunate disadvantage of coming out about 10 years too early. However, they were and continue to be a super influential band. Not sure I’d put them in Groove Metal though.

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

As was well said in the video, they belong somewhere among the post-hardcore umbrella. Still my favorite band ever

[@ronmercer7766]

Heavy and in the pocket were joined at the hip in heavy music at one time. Bill Ward and Ian Paice could swing like Jo Jones. Vinnie Paul is in that lineage.

[@WildySouza]

what did you said at 14:31?? just after "body make" up...

[@midnightheoryofatsm]

Please do Extreme Prog metal for the latest episode!!

[@Deadsilentjoe]

I am really surprised Sam didn't know about Exhorder.. I would add stuff like Pissing Razors and Skinlab befor adding Soulfy and Mudvayne.. but I guess we all have our different interpretations..

[@jackko21]

What was the song at the start

[@MrDRock-rc2tz]

Roots-Sepultura

[@joemills4663]

Throwdown!!!Haymaker & venom and tears albums were heavy as F

[@stoikr]

No mention of Down? Or are they considered something else?

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

Stoner

[@singerfromhell666]

Not crowbar.... watch their dvd. they say it them self. they are doom core. they created that style

[@singerfromhell666]

Well not if you ask the band them self :) but i get that they are kinda Sludge if you asked me. But Doom cause they tuned their instruments down a lot back then.. and core cause of the hard core riffing here and there..

[@jasonvegan5761]

As soon as Liam said Crowbar: "Bruh, do you even groove metal???"

[@attilaschmid8773]

singerfromhell666 crowbar is Sludge which is Doom Metal and HC, Crust fusion ! Eyehategod was the originator !!

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

Exactly, leave Crowbar out of this mess. They are in a league of their own, but if you need to place them somewhere it would be sludge / doom

[@lewis56405]

a bit of an odd suggestion, but what about hed (pe)?

[@metaldad79]

I would have added COC

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

They had many phases musically, the radio friendly stoner one probably being the most known one

[@MHMDmusic]

One of my favorite metal styles.👍

[@EliasSilva-kg6ed]

I think it would be cool if Banger did a list per genre not of influential bands, but of influential artists. As we all know, artists go from one band to another, and bands evolve over time. A band is sometimes hard to gauge which genre they belong to, but the artists always leave their mark in everything that they do. Ministry was at the top of the industrial list, deservedly so, but industrial is all over the place. Al Jourgesson however is the man whether you're talking about ministry, revco, lard, or his new stuff with surgical meth machine...that kind of stuff. I grew up listening to the music, love these talks, but I also want to learn as much as I can about the artists. Just something I think would be cool.

[@robertpoole5652]

Elias Silva ☝☝☝☝ I 2nd this!! Sounds like a great idea to me

[@PorscheJon]

What about Trivium? Post-Thrash or what?

[@Helicondrummer]

I don't know why there seems to be such aversion to the term groove metal. It's common place in the community; just look at metal archives. Also where is Corrosion of Conformity?

[@vaughnwesley9178]

You guys should do a video about Avant-garde Metal.

[@ademitchell2251]

Pissing Razors from Texas should definitely be up there amongst the higher echelon of groove metal bands. They took the post thrash influences of PanterA, Machine Head and mid 90's Sepultura and upped the extremity over said bands, creating an aggressive groove laced metal sound. Check out their "Cast Down The Plague" album for a good example of this.

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

How is it possible that Exhorder has been out of your radar?

[@SpencerCantley]

Good Episode, Cant Wait for essential Doom metal albums!

[@brockfranklin699]

This is waaay late but after listening to ExHorder, they remind me of Exodus. Especially Bonded by Blood. Anybody?

[@metaladdict123]

Like this episode a lot. Great discussion!

[@attilaschmid8773]

remember Machine Head also was Mallcore at midpoint

[@codygranrud6212]

Where's COC?

[@supremelordoftheuniverse5449]

Crowbar contains groove, but is not groove metal. The best category for them is still sludge / doom, but really, they are on a league of their own. No other band comes even close (please prove me wrong by suggesting some, as they are one of my all time favorite bands)

[@nastynate7772]

Why'd he cut his hair???

[@moonspell6759]

how and why did I miss this?

[@darkjester2713]

progressive Groove..Nevermore

[@ManuSDP]

Exhorder made the two best groove metal albums EVER

[@horrormaster1980]

Shit I didn't know it was earlier today FUCK first time I miss lock horns!!

[@BangerTV]

Sorry Horror Master! Special case. We're back at 5pm EST in two weeks.

[@craze77]

Hey the sound is really quite in this episode, turns your mics up or smthg. Thanks! :)

[@richardkinier1603]

where i can listen /watch to live lock horns?

[@maximejoyal4349]

I think it's on every Wednesday at 5pm eastern time.

[@daleweber2579]

This is cool. I think if Mtv brings back HeadBangers Ball this guy should be the host and also show this Metal tree genres (show all the genres of music tree) apart of the opener.

[@AndrewJShirley]

So frustrated that this goes out live while I'm playing D&D every week haha. So glad you removed SOAD. Machine Head were also seriously influenced by Hardcore bands like Madball, Cro-Mags, Life Of Agony and as much as I hate to say it but 25 Ta Life. I've often called Machine Head Hardcore influenced Metal.

[@TheMadnessandTheMadMan]

All those older bands till machine head and log are post thrash....groove metal starts with log, devildriver, and machine head. They started and influence so many new bands like my own which is groove metal.

[@VTX666]

Looking forward to that doom metal essentials episode

[@zackvin4369]

I'm a little miffed that Fear Factory was not included. They went some different ways here and there as their career went on but Demanufacture imo is one of the great masterpieces of Groove Metal. They really used the Industrial element as an atmospheric backdrop more so than actual instrumentation. Essentially to accentuate the Man vs Machine themes and lyrical concepts that have always been at the heart of their sound. Vulgar, Chaos A.D., La Sexorsisto, Burn my Eyes, and Demanufacture are the cornerstone albums of early/mid 90's (post-thrash) Groove Metal 🤘

[@thewarrior6784]

you guys forgot to include chimaira!

[@blackhair18]

How the fuck is there not a Lamb Of God magnet?!?!?

[@Eccentricjuices]

System should be in either Experimental metal or Advant Garde metal like FNM. WHO WERE BIG INFLUENCES ON NU METAL BY THE WAY!!!

[@mattod3259]

The Years of Decay dabbled in groove a bit. Who tends the fire is a groove anthem. Further stapling the Kill as one of the transcendent greats of Metal

[@silentnoah]

I love Metal that grooves. Explains my love of Djent, the never-ending possibilities of "the groove." Djent is all about "the groove"

[@Jtitor177]

Pantera + Crowbar = DOWN! Who need to be on this list.

[@Flugmorph]

damn im hyped for the next episode. turn loose the swans has to be one of the albums!

[@oskarengberg7464]

Anyone mentioned Snot?

[@doomusrlc]

Hell, I will admit I only know of Exhorder because of Roadrunner's From the Vault series. but yes. godfathers of this style for sure.

[@wyattschirrick6437]

Like I said in the live chat: I think Groove metal is a term that was created to give thrash a different name when Grundge came around. It was something "new" and something different to market besides the same thing that had been around since the 80's.