Group B's Mysterious Final Crash - Henri Toivonen

[@RomanKniga]

you are defenetly one of the most underrated car historiean youtubers. keep it up. ypu will get out big one day man!

[@blagssss]

Thank you so much, means a lot to hear that

[@ozfugs]

Great job. You covered this story with a level of respect and dignity that other channels have not shown. The writing was great, the editing was great, and you have a nice voice to listen to. Keep it up.

[@blagssss]

Thank you so much! That' the nicest comment I've had :)

[@ianwilkinson4602]

A cultured English voice always wins out...

[@donaljamescaddye3805]

I saw Henri when i was a lad in the Circuit of Ireland 1984 - he was driving the Prodrive run Rothmans Porsche 911 SC RS A974 BRX - He had a karting accident half way through and then the Porsche got jammed in 5th gear - I remember the mechanics trying to change the box outside Sligo at 2am - They ran out of time but i recall them with the engine and gearbox on the floor !! Thanks for reminding me ! Great video.

[@blagssss]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing that :) You're very lucky

[@nigeldepledge3790]

Those spectator deaths in Portugal were extremely tragic, but they weren't the fault of Group B. They were caused by the complete absence of crowd control in Portuguese rallies. If you look at earlier footage from Rallye Portugal (say, the late '70s), you'll see the exact same thing - spectators obscuring the road and moving aside at the last possible moment.

[@Ricardo_Moto]

The only contributing factor, that was a result of the group B cars, is they made such good watching.

[@johnbower7452]

Not just Portugal, I used to see it at many Rallies on TV. My mum and I used to comment on it quite a bit.

[@nigeldepledge3790]

@johnbower7452 - yes you're right. But it seemed to me at the time that Portugal was always the worst for that.

[@craigpimlott204]

It wasn’t much better in the 90’s

[@Rentta]

It wasn't only crash itself but how Lancia treated Henri's family after it was a disgrace often not talked about.

[@blagssss]

Lancia were way overly obsessed with chasing titles, they also were furious at the withdrawal in portugal after the huge crash into the spectators iirc

[@tomlepski8306]

Unlike Peugeot and Audi, team Lancia did not have a human face and their only obsession was winning titles which they did win and in plenty. Peugeot took exemplary good care of Vatanen after his near fatal accident in Argentina all the way to full recovery.

[@mampe8898]

Nobody from lancia didin't come to funeral.

[@tomlepski8306]

@@mampe8898 Very inhuman for Lancia to skip Henri's burial, no human face in the team. I really hope Henri's widow and Sergio's were properly compensated after the tragedy.

[@mampe8898]

@tomlepski8306 kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKDcaaFpgqiCiLcsi=3A24UuqmGBDmn7MC 45:25-47:15. There is answer.

[@bubarowe]

@9.45 there is an image clearly showing skid marks going off the edge of the road and to the crash site . . . It just goes to show that in spite of clear evidence of something if the internet decides something then facts and evidence doesn't really matter.

[@iangregoryhome]

Yeah your right, diffo skid marks and maybe some rust there on the right, could of been a steering issue or is it from the tow truck in the thumbnail 🤔

[@nickkerr5714]

Skid marks on the concrete and into the grass

[@racer0316]

There's a good chance those are the drag marks of the chassis being pulled out after the crash. To think you could figure out from an old picture something that experts, true experts didn't see is a real stretch and a bit arrogant.

[@jmoore9806]

​@@racer0316drag marks ? When they draged the burnt car with only the chassis left ? Nothing was left on the car due to the fire

[@racer0316]

@@bfc3057 I don't know why your so offended by me saying one look at an old picture doesn't tell the story and if true crash investigators couldn't definitely tell what happened but all the you tube experts think they know the facts tells me who's looking at this through a clear lens and an open mind and who's not. All I said was I don't know for sure and nobody else on here does either. Nothing to be butt hurt about.

[@matton36]

They said there were no skid marks but i can clearly see them at 9:45

[@mhh7544]

I was 10 when the group B started, for a Finnish kid it was truly the golden years of rallying, and Henri was my hero, still is, I am a big rally fan. Great job, I subscriped.

[@carlosalastrue5341]

You're going to allow me to correct one detail: Toivonen is hired by Lancia the same year that he also races with Richards' Porsche in the European Rally Championship: the year 1984, which he almost won. Which was truly crazy, racing in the same year at the World and European Championships at the same time. That was perhaps the biggest mistake of his career. Obviously he could not run all the World Cup races if the dates coincided with the European races where he did have a chance of victory. In the end "he who covers a lot, squeezes little" as they say in my country It would also be necessary to assess a series of circumstances regarding his accident in Corsica that for me have not been sufficiently valued, apart from the terrible passive safety of the cars. On the one hand, the marathon rally that was the Tour de Corse at that time, stages of up to 80 km. some, super slow and winding that took more than 1 hour to travel in exhausting legs, with these cars that were so stressful to pilot (turbo engines of almost 480 HP in that rally, achieving up to 550 HP at the end of the season for both Lancia and Peugeot, not 600 as you say), so in any regrouping they needed the assistance of physiotherapists . And then there is a reason that is also little talked about: the serious irresponsibility of team boss, Cesare Fiorio; It's said that he was even forced to run by contract with a strong flu and medicated, I prefer to be prudent and to say that Fiorio allowed him to run in physical circumstances that were inadvisable for competing. In fact, there is a revealing detail that is told, and that is that when he went to get in his car in the parc fermé, he made a mistake and got into the car of one of his companions, I don't know if in Alén's car or in the Biasion, which it denoted his state of lethargy due to medication effects.

[@LathropLdST]

"El que mucho abarca, poco aprieta", ¿eh?

[@bugattieb110ss]

Another little-known fact about Toivonen was that in the lead-up to his death, he confided in close friends that he was suffering from micro-blackouts as a result of injuries he'd received in earlier rallies - particularly his serious neck injury he'd sustained in the 1985 Costa Smeralda rally which was part of the European Championship. He deliberately kept this to himself as he would have been at serious risk of having his competition licence suspended and hence lost his place in the Lancia Team.

[@4vepvik781]

​@@bugattieb110ssI also heard that story.

[@alan_davis]

​@@bugattieb110ssyeah, we (unlike you) actually watched the video.

[@thehistoryjedi390]

Loving the videos brotha recently found your channel loving the documentary on racing history as i have a huge passion for racing and motorsport history in general.

[@WLS_Churchill]

I've been in an ex group B delta... It was a cardboard box and if it was not Henry, it would have been someone else. I love group B cars, i don't miss group B at all. As impressive as it was, as talented as the drivers were, death waited at every stage, and that's not soemthing we should miss.

[@monnkr]

Litteral chills man, what a great video

[@blagssss]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@KingHayabusa384]

1986 might have been the worst year in rally history. Portugal, Toivonen und Surer's crash at the Hessen-Rally were absolutely horrific.

[@mikeharding1016]

Fantastically clear and informative video. Really nicely put together. 👍

[@Watts378]

Appreciate your awesome vids. Keep up the good work mate - Cheers.

[@awesomeduder]

In the McKlein Group B book, which is excellent if you can find a copy, John Davenport raises the issue of toluene and other fuel additives that were definitely being used in F1 fuel at the time as an octane booster, and probably in the WRC too. (It's the magic substance that let BMW hit the magic 1400bhp figure that used to be boasted about.) Toluene builds up in the body and acts aa a sedative, and can render a person unconscious. When you consider that the S4's fuel tanks were right under the seats, and that fuel cell tech was not being used, it doesn't take too many leaps of logic before you see the possibility that any leakage into the cabin, say a hairline crack in the tank, and a build-up of fumes may have put Henri to sleep before he left the road.

[@CameronGreenwoodCramp]

Henri Toivonen is my favourite guy from Finland. And of course my favourite rally driver of all time besides Colin McRae and Walter Rohrl. :)

[@theotherguys8173]

The quality of these videos is insane

[@blagssss]

Thank you so much, glad you keep coming back :)

[@johngeren1053]

There is clear evidence in the photo shown at about 30 seconds that the fuel tank was punctured by the broken and crushed chassis (not tree limbs), as reported at the time. The same photo is shown around 17 minutes, and it indicates that the car landed on its tail, not roof.

[@Zurnany]

I didn’t remember paying for KZbin premium.

[@jeracerx]

And even then it wasn't the last Group B death, with Marc Surer's accident in the ERC round in Hessen with the RS200 burning his codriver Michel Wyder alive

[@aalyan_81]

your underrated,remember me when your famous

[@stevesgaming7475]

I remember those times, intensely exciting but yes very very dangerous indeed. RIP Henri!

[@waynerafferty1048]

Watch the movie Henri, even at the monte Carlo rally, the S4 burned out its front brakes every stage and suffered severe understeer at high speed. Plus the driver and co driver sat on the fuel tank, the S4 needed more testing and alterations

[@dsofe4879]

9:40 am I crazy? there's clearly tire marks in this image, leading straight off the cliff...

[@aquila1723]

Awesome video

[@Mark_est92]

Great video man the deltas are some of my most favorites rally cars thanks for the this great video now I know much more of its history and the drivers

[@pabloriecker3528]

Your videos are so good!! You are going to be big one day. I am sure about that

[@collectivesound8298]

Bro I love your videos

[@Haluu_]

May they rest in peace. Unfortunate group B had to end in a tragedy.

[@panosdel5709]

very high horsepower, which the suspensions, brakes, tires, and even the frames could not manage properly. that's why all the drivers who raced the group B cars were tremendous drivers. they were literally struggling to drive these beasts

[@SteveM-ly7oy]

Ford did not pull out. They took part in the very next event, the Acropolis. They ran cars in the RAC Rally that year, but they did pull out of the rallies in Argentina and 1000 Lakes. Audi ran a car for John Buffum at the Olympus Rally and there was a car for Harald Demuth in the RAC. The Audi Works team pulled out, but not private teams.

[@ondraspendlik9759]

I've heard a bunch of theories on the crash. It could have been a health problem (blacking out or something) or a simple driver's error (anything from judging the corner incorrectly to misshearing a pace note), or a co-driver's error (calling a wrong pace note or even incorrectly writing it during the recce). Could have been a technical problem like a brake failure or the mentioned stuck throttle. I've also heard a theory about the team forgetting to change one of the tires during service, which may have caused the accident (like a sudden tire failure). Who knows what really happened. He apparently had a big lead, so he didn't have to push. Perhaps if he went a little slower or if the car had a skid plate, it could have been a very different story for the duo and for Group B. They would have probably been champions that year. But even if they survived, the thunder would strike somewhere else. Group B was simply not sustainable and it likely wouldn't last more than 2 years longer. It was becoming too expensive, some manufacturers were quitting and it was obviously very dangerous (and not really popular with the drivers, I assume, since they found the cars too fast), both in terms of crew safety and spectator safety. I think Group S would be more of the same. As great as it was, killing it was the right thing to do and Group A was just what rallying needed.

[@lucatownsendracing]

Great video mate. Subbed 👍

[@blagssss]

Much appreciated!

[@Soupdragon1964]

Interesting film, thank-you. Your narrative makes a pleasant change from the US-style hyperbole and BS. Ironically, it fell to Alfa Romeo (with an Auto Delta GTV) to secure a win at that rally, a name with strong motorsport connections but not in rallying. RIP Henri and Sergio.

[@YoungEmir]

great to see another video from blags 👍 RIP Henri Toivonen

[@blagssss]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@icestreak.]

My favorite car-related youtuber. Extremely underrated

[@fw1421]

I’ve never understood why spectators are allowed to stand on the outside of corners where they are directly in the path of the cars if they loose control.

[@d1want34]

Lack of awareness in those days

[@fw1421]

@@d1want34 I think there’s more to it. They must get some kind of thrill being so close to the cars as they scream by in a drift…getting pelted with dirt and stones. Insane to me but I’m not a Rally fan.

[@memorialcardscork2005]

Lancia spirited away the remaining lancias out of the island b4 scrutineers could check them, a well known and respected motoring journalist had been following lancia around, asked a mechanic why they changed the fire extinguishers at every service halt, the mechanic said sheepishly, for safety, rumours circulated that nitrous oxide had been put into the extinguishers for more power, totally illegal, one point about group a being quicker, yes, on short twisty roads, hannu still holds records on a few 1000 lakes rally stages.... great video tho

[@Dan-hq2js]

Would true rally champions really feel great that they earnt victory by cheating and being disgraced though? maybe a few, but all / only lancia drivers and convincing them to do this surely some would've spoke and walked.

[@memorialcardscork2005]

@Dan-hq2js you would think not, allen, henri etc etc seem like great sportsmen, and fight fair, but it is lancia we talking about, and they under contract, look a michael Schumacher, 7 times world champ, but still cheated at least twice with beneton,either willingly or under contract

[@las10plagas]

6:20 oh, I've never seen the clip of the accident. only heard there is one in other videos... I never searched for it, though. really f'd up. especially, when you consider what he said the day before -.- EDIT: I'm confused, now. you said there is a video but it didn't surface? O___o

[@blagssss]

yeah, it didn’t seem like there’s footage of them losing traction, only moments afterwards so it’s hard to tell exactly why they crashed

[@las10plagas]

@@blagssss aight

[@badgumby9544]

Black outs, sticking throttle, dangerous course, car with too much power with a driver who took too many risks. What did you expect to happen.

[@max27stoner]

Would you want to do a video about TT rider Jarno Saarinen’s fatal crash (plus Renzo Pasolini’s) at the 1973 Nations GP in Monza?

[@rastas_4221]

His last words were chilling. Why did group B end? Your brains cant keep up.

[@johngeren1053]

The fuel tank was puntured by a broken chassis tube, not a tree limb. That was what was reported at the time.

[@peterjennings8258]

How can you mention Group A cars and not mention the Lancia Delta integrale!!

[@blagssss]

True, true

[@RdeCGaming]

Can you make a video about karl wendlingers crash at monaco 94?

[@croonersteve]

You can clearly see skid marks on the road leading straight off the edge , never heard so much nonsense , don’t please use their own senses when it comes to things like this, he is clearly under the weather and not himself in footage prior to the accident. The fans in the mid eighties were crazy and were the demise of the sport they loved. I know I was out there at all hours and weathers . Portugal was always ridiculous spectator wise

[@FadingVitals]

The Group B reminds me to the Formula 1 of 1967, when the Cars had no wings and about 600hp. These were death traps!

[@velchuck]

They didn’t call them the “killer Bs” for nothing. Insane

[@stefanglusac9595]

Nice vid, also you sound like Ashley Neal.

[@bluemutt9964]

Honestly I feel nothing for the crowds involved. Yes people, get in the way of the car barreling at 90+ mph you're all just superman

[@Lil_smol_integragsr]

Group B is legendary but don’t try to start something like it. It will just end with unnecessary death

[@p24hrsmith]

It's just silly to say the cars were to powerful for the course because you have a choice race safely or recklessly and if wining means more to you than your life you make your choice and pay the price that is in no way the cars fault

[@KungkangXii]

Rest in Peace

[@originalforgery]

Nothing comes close to the legendary Group B....

[@rallycrz]

They were not only too powerfull but were also not very safe cars.. after group b era fia concentrate on safety ...RIP Henri &Sergio .

[@Herrie199]

9:47 there's clearly a skidmark visible..

[@Dan-hq2js]

Another video on Yt where a chap is asking questions as they sit in the car, shows bonnet and wings being held on with a bungy strap henri talks about how unstable the car is to handle NOT due to the obvious, the commentator says "but everyone's in the same position so what's different for you" , he replies "from a front end damage sustained earlier the whole car is a bannana" interviewer " what can you do about that" he replies "new car"'. that bent chassis alone or something on the chassis letting Go could've caused it. But due to the damage after the fatal crash noone can ever confirm.

[@fabrizionardo4611]

In memory Toivonen Crespo S4 😢

[@FlashoftheBlades]

Rallycross would’ve been a better setting for Group B after 1986. Same with Group S.

[@petranz0335]

Btw what is the most scariest rally car ever made in your opinion?

[@DarrenBoxhall]

There are fucking skid marks right after the curve into the grass and off the edge. Am i fucking loosing my mind or?

[@tamasbartha6201]

Actually Toivonen had no choice, but to start. His widow told that they got a letter from Lancia, that if the drivers themselves refuse to start, they would be sacked.

[@Dylan-180]

Having the drivers blood type on the side of the car is so bad ass

[@colpul2103]

Group A is great, but it isn't Group B. It isn't just the speed but the danger, the man v machine, how edgy it was. Was it worth peoples' lives? Not saying that, but like F1 in the 1960s or Isle of Man TT today there something about 'death defying' spectacle. There's a romance to it. As racing has become safer it has lost a little bit of that something that made it one of the only three real sports: Mountain Climbing, Bull Fighting, and Motor Racing (as stated by Hemingway 'everything else is just a game'). You had to be more than a good driver to race Group B, you had to have real balls. And for anyone who says 'Hey Michael Mutton' she had more balls than this whole comment section combined.

[@svrsheisty432]

In sad ill never know what real racing and competition is not saying none of the races nowadays are bad but the stories i hear from back in the day i wish i was late 30s not 16 😂😢

[@pekeopdenacker4137]

henri was top

[@blagssss]

incredible driver, especially at such a young age compared to many of his competitors

[@BustaHymen]

A stuck throttle being a "known issue" on a rally car (let alone a group B) and still allowing it to race? Sounds... implausible, to be diplomatic.

[@blagssss]

If you want to read about the (many) downsides of the S4 definitely check this out. It was a legendary but highly temperamental beast: rallygroupbshrine.org/the-group-b-cars/rally-cars/lancia-delta-s4/

[@BustaHymen]

@@blagssss Thanks, will do! I was just a kid back then, times were different (not all to the bad though)

[@marguskiis7711]

Nothing mysterious. Delta had so weak construction that every morw serious crash was potentially fatal.

[@sleebanger]

the bodies were actually found away from the car. this has been left out of all FIA investigations, yet widely talked about by the other drivers ever since.

[@thestreets5206]

I think the roll cage was filled with NOS that why it went up so quick and why lancia removed the car so quickly which was also illegal

[@alan_davis]

Maybe go back to school and study chemistry.

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Modern cars are more powerfull and faster. Modern crowds are little better,, and then organisers put spectator areas right in the line of a crashing car. Rallying is really plain stupid in all its forms, offroading as well as Targa events. More people killed in those three than any other area of motorsport. I am a road racer, and do the occasional hillclimb [and safety there can be an issue] as well as playing dirt speedway. Where there is fire crews, ambulances and fences to keep the cars out of the crowd.

[@kireta21]

Modern rally cars are not more powerful, a typical 4-wheel-drive Group R5 car has 310 HP and weights around 1100kg, front-wheel-drive R2 around 220HP. They achieve faster times thanks to vastly improved handling, curtesy of 30 years more advanced tires, and suspension. Not to mention modern rally cars don't use manual gearbox

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Modern rally cars dont use manual gearboxes?? That is except for the majority that do. I am not talking dreamworld championship cars but the more normal cars. And many of those have manuals as well. And all of these cars are downright dangerous, as is the whole sport. Us road racers are heavily subsidising your liability insurance. Try getting insurance for rallying on its own,, would not happen. @@kireta21

[@Grid56]

Exhausted driver from flu and probably affected by medicine " may cause drowsiness do not operate machinery etc." Way car was destroyed is an eye opener. As to too fast, the modern rally cars are faster, indeed many road cars are faster today than the B cars were then.

[@DarrenBoxhall]

Cars too powerful for the course? Well, use 75% of the throttle then and stay alive

[@TheoFraser-kq9jx]

Or fix the course and cars and allow drivers to race properly

[@Dan-hq2js]

True drivers dont just compete, they compete to win, that means driving at the limit, which is afine line easy to see the wrong side of. Some say he had to compete and was forced, if he refused at worst he loses his job but lives. But the rush and draw to compete and win usually wins out. I think that's case in point combined with unsafe unruly cars and other questionable issues.

[@cwmbc]

They complained and banned group B. But look how WRC cars are developing these days...are they not becomming the same?

[@Dan-hq2js]

Yes and no, whilst they are as you say approaching or exceeding that era now, they are profoundly safer and equipped with a far far superior safety cage and cell. the safety of the lancias was absloutely laughable.

[@stevenmoran4060]

Cars are going faster these days than then. Poor spectator behaviour never happened in UK just abroad as the Marshalls did nothing about it. In UK no standing anywhere on the outside of any corner and stages were cancelled if the crowds didn’t follow the rules. The Lombard tour of Britain Rally was the last proper rally anywhere. No pace notes or practice allowed, all driven blind and the rally was a full 5 day and night affair. I used to go watch it for 6 years courtesy of an entry pass to all stages. You could watch 1 in 3 stages generally and covered around 1000 miles in those 5 days. Brilliant times. The Corsica crash was a direct result of it being a pace note rally and he was going far too fast to make the corner.

[@rhannay39]

Man, watching the Stratos round the Great Orme and through Keilder. I was once allowed to drive the Sunbeam Lotus built for pacenoting the Manx, what an experience that was. It was supposed to be a standard car: not even close 😀

[@Robbolad]

his co driver survived but henri not so much..

[@ededdynova]

They often had fake roll bars too in group B super thin walled tube bearly taking its load and weight let alone impack

[@ededdynova]

Cars are much faster, safer and with higher cornering speeds now. We are as close to group B if not beyond it now

[@edwardpearce2492]

I went to a group B style rally late 90s .. nearly got deleted rolling one back on its wheels

[@jasonrichardson6899]

Why can nobody pronounce Lancia correctly

[@oyy123]

Why the f call rallying " racing" so annoying, they are totally different

[@edisaacsson2722]

You can see the skidmarks at 09:45??

[@MeaHeaR]

ÕMĞ é PôWéŘ-PhÛľĽ

[@markcozzie]

What about the RS200 outdated Sierra chassis death trap, Should've designed the chassis fresh start totally new,not redesign old technology

[@andrewknight4999]

Great cars, but perhaps too hard to drive on those roads. And can we all learn to pronounce the name of the car properly? It is not "Lawn-see-ya". It is "Lan-cha". One of the great marques, and sad to see that it's been reduced to a local Italian city car.

[@kramnam4716]

Mystery? Lift off oversteer followed by pendulum effect.

[@jacekatalakis8316]

1986 was bad but you have to remember that in 1985, a year before Henri's death, Attilio Bettega: died at he same event exactly a year earlier, also in a Lancia as well and that in many ways shook the sport just as much as 1986 did. I've read in various sources Toivonen was taking medication for his flu however and yes I've run across those claims before, IIRC wasn't one of the videos on the old tbk.fameflame boards or similar ones?

[@mampe8898]

-85 bettega car number was 4, -86 toivonen car number was 4. 😢