Toivonen's corner - Group B rallying's tragic mystery

[@klaseronen7535]

I was 12 when Henri (and Sergio) died. Gilles Villeneuve had been my hero in Formula One and then all of a sudden we the Finns we had a Villeneuve or a Senna in rallying. With Henri, most of my love for rally ended. It wasn't the same ever again. On the 30th anniversary of his death I visited Henri's final resting place in Espoo, Finland. Somehow the circle had closed. Thanks for the memories, Henri, you were something extra-ordinary.

[@AlanAttack]

Its racing remember, thats the risk we take, thats what makes it awesome.

[@peejay1981]

As an Australian, I felt much the same way when Possum Bourne was killed. It took quite a few years to get over.

[@justinl2009]

@@peejay1981 He's that rally driver for Subaru right? RIP

[@peejay1981]

@@justinl2009 Yes. From New Zealand

[@andyelliott8027]

@@Hughjanus720 Paul didn't say Possum was Australian, he said he ( Paul) was. Possum was a big star in that part of the World.

[@tinusjacobs2814]

The world of rally lost a true legend in the making that day......but his death lead to so many safety advancements and rules that saved countless others, so it was not in vain. RIP Henri....

[@markmark5269]

Henri.

[@tinusjacobs2814]

@@markmark5269 Autocorrect....thanks bud

[@ferrari2k]

Kind of like the same with Senna in F1. Legend and his death led to many safety improvements.

[@rodlogan6604]

....please get it right, not only you but others as well....THEY died.....

[@WarpPal]

Honestly people dont need to die to get advancements in safety. Our technology and innovations give us the ability to quantify the potential risks to death things like group B have.

[@niceguy100000]

I think the co-driver needs more mention for a video this long.

[@diogosilva4585]

I think all the documentaries in rally in group b, wrc, its allways about the driver. Without the co driver he does nothing. Racing driver think they are rockstars and shit but without the team behind them they are useless.

[@TeamVVV]

Agreed, they should always acknowledge the co-driver.

[@zoom3it172]

Could've been his fault lol, left 6 200, jk left 2 tightens to left 2

[@diogosilva4585]

@@zoom3it172 hahaha left flatout 5000.

[@diogosilva4585]

@@zoom3it172 joking aside it looks like a co driver error. There are no brake marks which means he was sure that that was a diferent corner

[@mikehydropneumatic2583]

I love group B rally but not the fatal accidents. If you go fast be able to tell the story.

[@danielwolfe4169]

"death is part of the sport"

[@macolincolncybersec]

@@danielwolfe4169 no.. it happens but it is not a part of the sport. That goes for any sport.

[@EthanBradburyVlogs]

@@macolincolncybersec yes it is

[@MrMiD.Life.Crisis]

It blows me away how relaxed people were when it came to risk. I can almost understand that view when it came to the 1950's as those guys may well have served in WW2. If youve seen horrific things during the war then driving a car flat out with limited safety wouldnt seem too big a deal. Also you could say that they didnt know any better - driving cars that were almost like bombs, with a prop shaft in between your legs, no seat belt, a cloth (helmet) cap on your head and tyres like pram wheels. It seems crazy when you compare with now!

[@mikehydropneumatic2583]

@@MrMiD.Life.Crisis Probably assuming it will never happen to them.

[@leonardodahumanoid4344]

Group B blew race fans away. Then frequent tragedies began to occur. Personally l hated to see the end of the cars but at the same time couldn't bear to continue hearing of these horrible accidents.

[@christianponicki9581]

They named 2 tragedies, and wasn't Portugal because of crappy race organizing? Group B drivers signed a big petition outright saying, "Keep Group B cars, but reorganize the damned races, and we won't drive again until you do." - signed to the FIA. Apparently no one got the memo...?

[@Zahrul3]

The current WRC cars are quite close to Group B cars, actually

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

This is the most incredible Group B story ever imo. www.redbull.com/int-en/henri-toivonen-at-estoril-exploring-the-myth Those cars were monsters without control.

[@MrtinVarela]

Group B blew race fans away, then they _really_ started blowing race fans away.

[@sandrino5]

@@Zahrul3 They aren't really. With all the modern tech, they are far safer to drive. I'm not saying easier, but definitely a lot safer. And regarding group B cancellation. A lot of it came down to spectators as well. If the group B would come back now, with modern safety measures in cars and current crowd control, I think it would absolutely work.

[@0cs025]

its the first time I've ever heard of this and i already feel sad, i feel sorry to him and everyone around him

[@CAPDude44]

I suggest you watch some documentaries on Group B rally. Absolutely bonkers stuff.

[@mrwinstonwolfe]

Both Toivonen and Cresto actually

[@rektigt7673]

group B is one hell of a story man , from the History all the way to the cars , check out some documentary about Group B men it is really cool

[@sandrakenny8731]

Co driver too.

[@hellsing5062]

CAPDude44 also watch Senna documentary

[@asdasdasdasd342]

First good episode with people actually talking .

[@PnTNecrosis]

I don't want to watch talking, I want to see a few replays of the crash and call it a day.

[@sunman2566]

@@PnTNecrosis You must be a big fan of Michael Bay movies.

[@JimHerbertOutdoors]

@@PnTNecrosis yep same here. Nice misleading thumbnail and title . Then no crash after you watch whole video.... BUT IT GOT YOUR VIEW COUNT . Smh.

[@R3ddyyg]

@@JimHerbertOutdoors If you are a real rally fan or at least know something about Group B you should have seen that accident before

[@asdasdasdasd342]

@@PnTNecrosis a google search is available in 2019 .

[@hardyherrmann4154]

Well...trying to find the correct words (I'm German)..... Henri was (is) my all-time-favourite Rallye driver..... I do own a Sunbeam Lotus (knowing that very special feeling of driving it !)...and I'm coming to Corsica since 1981 as a young buy with my parents. I have visited this point so many times and if you take your time, sit there beside the memorial and just accept to feel this place and it's horribly history...perhaps you know and understand that Rallye- Sport just changed here in May 2 of 1986.........thanks Guys for this very sensual report !!!!! Henry & Sergio - RIP !!!!

[@jasonmeehan1269]

I remember the day well when I was a kid watching this with my grandmother. Worst part of the story for me was finding out his widow and family never got payed by lanica for money earned up to his death.

[@xxwalhalaxxmozza7415]

Jason Meehan that would never happen in this day and age, they’d be sued to bankruptcy

[@theturkanabus3610]

@@xxwalhalaxxmozza7415 why don't they sue now?

[@xxwalhalaxxmozza7415]

theTurkanaBus a lot has happened over the last 20 years regarding safety and corporate manslaughter etc legal companies that exist by fighting for people’s rights and money etc that weren’t around back then

[@piuthemagicman]

Well, Henri's brother haeri Drove a Lancia S4 in WRC Rally Finland 2017. That was unforgettable. He had no beef with Lancia.

[@Ryiszz]

it wasn’t lancias fault. all they did was build a car. everyone involved knew how dangerous group b could get.

[@TexasADV]

I would LOVE to see a modern day Group B brought back with todays more advanced safety technology.

[@Jonathan_Doe_]

Texas ADV Current WRC stage times are faster than group B anyway.

[@tucoramirez4558]

@@Jonathan_Doe_ Faster yes, but not anywhere near as challenging to drive fast. In a straight line - and I know there are few straights in rallying - they'd still win easily. Group B were truly overpowered cars which had way more power than the chassis, suspension, tire and brake technology of the mid 80's could harness. Exploiting the limits of those overpowered monsters really was up to the driver - who had to be incredibly brave, often becoming foolish bordering to mental.

[@drazenbudis7881]

Johnathan Doe So what if they’re faster? Its about the spectacle and variety.

[@andyfisher6025]

There was talks about group b coming back , but it wouldn’t be the same the noise the smells and the drivers , these guys drove these with no aids like traction control or launch, a lot of the modern day group a stuff are setting faster lap times but it just doesn’t seem as full on as they were in these cars

[@jamesbisset9891]

Andy Fisher but wrc cars don’t have any Electronic aids now

[@ianmclaren5297]

I had the thrill of riding in the co driver's seat of the lotus sunbeam with Henry . What an amazingly skillful driver .

[@TheLRider]

You lucky boy. I had a short spin likewise with Russel Brooks once in a Lotus Sunbeam too but you beat me definitely. I adored both of them and love the Sunbeam too. Owned two back in the day mainly because of them..

[@ianmclaren5297]

@@TheLRider I rode with Russel too and Guy frequilin at the same time.😀

[@fifthbusiness1678]

You mean ‘Henri,’ right? Forgive my suspicious nature, but somehow this doesn’t ring true. Have you any proof of this?

[@codymoe4986]

@FifthBusiness...You must carry some weight amongst your people to feel like you can just call someone a liar, right outta the blue, with zero evidence they lied other than a sneaking suspicion... Or maybe you're just an asshole?

[@giarlymoltubakk5869]

Hes allowed to be suspicious and check the sources

[@s.a.f.r.a6403]

I think tires and technology played a big role in the accident these cars were too fast for the technology available at the time and safety was just about non existent almost

[@liammaupin9492]

S.A. F.R.A you are correct but if group B was around today safety would intrude on the speed the beautiful thing about Group B is that is was the elite of the elite drivers and a true test of skill and it would lose that “on edge dangerous mistique”

[@victorpelini5995]

Even with more safety they would have still died. Imagine jumping off a cliff...

[@s.a.f.r.a6403]

@@victorpelini5995 but they didn't go far down they must of gotten knocked out by the cars lack of safety precautions

[@victorpelini5995]

@@s.a.f.r.a6403 we will never know..

[@Mark-nx1zz]

@@victorpelini5995 It wasn't the cliff, the car caught fire straight away as it was made of magnesium and they couldn't get out.

[@alanhindmarch657]

As a Rallying Fan of every level of the sport. I remember the day well. I found this video very moving. RIP HENRI and SERGIO

[@felixcat9318]

Thank you for covering this truly horrific accident respectfully and honourably. I hope the families are in some way comforted that their lost one's are still remembered and mourned long after their tragic deaths.

[@hanika8827]

Group B was like a giant party in which not only everything was possible on paper - but also made ... But it was also a party of sweet, unbridled madness that took place in completely inhuman, technically disrupted cars the whole thing ended in 1986. If the cut hadn't come through Lancia, sooner or later it would have been through other accidents. It was beautiful and terrifying at the same time what was on offer at the time. For me, Group B will remain the ultimate in terms of vehicles and drivers. It was never again as fast, loud and shrill as it was then. Never again have the limits of what is technically feasible been explored so far, humans & machines have been brought to the edge of what is physically possible. Forever & unforgettable the cars, drivers & "filming locations" in Finland, Greece & Italy

[@-DC-]

Thank you for this .

[@johngeren1053]

The car did not go "straight off". It went off backwards. Skid marks indicated that, as did the chassis damag which shows that it landed on its tail. Bruno Saby and Mouton both said that the curve was the most deceptive spot on the stage and they each had marked it with excalamation points on their pace notes. The curve was near the end of a long stage. It was high speed and decreasing radius and the approach looked exactly like a dozen preceding curves on the stage. The S4's instant response, integral traction and speed were such that its crews were having great difficulty adapting their way of making and calling pace notes.

[@a320jockey]

the thing that scares me the most to this day is just how little was left of the car once it was finally pulled out

[@Jon-em4kc]

That's how little of the car there actually was. The S4 weighed something like 450kg.

[@mattnoyes6513]

yeah, those Lancias seemed like they were terribly fragile

[@Elbowbanditest2003]

@@mattnoyes6513 they were made of thin plastic I think

[@original__gmebvy]

@@Elbowbanditest2003 and magnesium as well, which we know is highly flammable

[@jussiuutaniemi3767]

Tubular steel frame doesn't look much but that was the "chassis" of S4. Body part design was a bit borrowed from Fiat ritmo. If only they kept the undercarriage protective plate for this event. But it was stripped to reduce weight.

[@roydrink]

Other major deaths that changed safety improvements in different racing groups in the modern era: F1 - Ayrton Senna 1994 NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt 2001 Indycar - Dan Wherdon 2011 Other groups may have deaths that completely changed safety rules & cars.

[@Myrvold]

Actually, the Wheldon incident was in the last race of that generation cars. The DW12 that IndyCar introduced for the next season already had the safety innovations during testing in 2011. Originally the car was going to be named IR12, but it was re-named in honor of Wheldon which had also done quite a bit of the testing with the car. His death had an effect, but it didn't directly lead to safety advancements in the way that the death of Senna and Earnhardt did.

[@x-rinanimationchannel3687]

MotoGP:Marco Simoncelli.

[@x-rinanimationchannel3687]

F1:Jules Bianchi

[@mrwicksy]

Ah, Dale Earnhardt. A man who thought HANS devices were for wimps but was killed by the injury they're designed to prevent.

[@kronos1850]

@@Myrvold he wasn't referring to IndyCars,he was referring to all of the cars in motorsport

[@jacksmith3189]

Thank you for reminding us of this tragedy leading to the end of group “B.”

[@ryanholt1680]

Jack Smith what do you mean by end of group b? end of the racing class? and why? what about “b” made them stop them

[@Elbowbanditest2003]

@@ryanholt1680 group b stopped because it was too dangerous, this accident is one if the reasons why it had to go, the cars became too uncontrollable for even the best drivers in the world.

[@ryanholt1680]

@@Elbowbanditest2003 thanks for thr info

[@budthecyborg4575]

I've always just heard "People Died in Group B" but never got context beyond that. Thank you for filling us in on one of the most critical moments in Rallysport history.

[@rjfaber1991]

This was the "People died in Group B" that got the most attention, as it actually saw the death of a celebrated driver, but the Portugal incident they refer to in the video was really a worse one, with three spectators dead and more than thirty badly injured when a Ford RS200 flew off the road during the Portuguese rally that same year.

[@jimmyd1337]

@@rjfaber1991 tbf the spectators had been asking for that one for awhile. You can't literally stand in the rally course... think it was Rohl who once found a finger in his windscreen wipers.

[@rjfaber1991]

+James Downes - Quite. Bit of a change from parking tickets and dead leaves I suppose... You're not wrong though, the role of spectators in '80s rallying culture was completely insane, and it was only a matter of time before things went horribly wrong.

[@rookieman329]

People got their fingers and hands chopped off from trying to touch the car (with open windows) at blistering speeds. And some stood under the jumping car

[@jiajiaoioi]

@@rjfaber1991 fans killed group b. idiots do not realize that moving car will hurt you, and then blames the drivers

[@joeallen4587]

I especially appreciate the history lessons like these, it makes me love Motorsport even more. Let’s keep the men who lost their lives from being forgotten, which is the very least they deserve.

[@A13U53D]

May 2 1986, the day group b died, the day I was born, what a cruel cosmic joke.

[@mchalecm]

It's your fault then

[@waynes6177]

My 2nd birthday. I was born in 84

[@zeroelus]

Great work on a sad subject, appreciate you making it.

[@Jonathan_Doe_]

I feel it was the lack of a wall/barrier as much as the cars fault. The crazy thing is, current WRC cars are actually faster than Group B, and a driver would probably be able to walk away from the same crash in a WRC car today due to massive advances in fuel cells, fire suppression, and roll cages.

[@MrAnkiboy]

i feel the same.... The accident in portugal killed 4 people and 30 injuries, because people was watching literally in the middle of the road. At the time no one cared mutch to safety

[@tucoramirez4558]

@@MrAnkiboy Safety existed but was really lax in places (Portugal in particular) and when it came to rallies there was virtually no way to make the audience stand a safe distance from the cars. Most reasoned:"You are responsible for your own safety in a rally and if you get his by one of the cars suit yourself, nobody made you stand there but yourself."

[@javidaderson]

I agree, Ott Tanak huge crash in 2020 would have been fatal in a Group B car.

[@millomweb]

I suspect not. If they'd hit the valley bottom, they'd be dead before the fire started.

[@marguskiis7711]

Henri had a heavy flu but Lancia forced him to drive to get the maximum. Thats nasty. Ironically Lancia was a way more succesful in Group A than group B.

[@shevo2008]

margus kiis easy to see why they were less successful in Group B. 037 was never going to cut it against the 4WD cars and the delta S4 was late to the party.

[@Emppu_T.]

@@shevo2008 the team was also strapped for cash and cut corners in building and safety, the car was hecking fast though.

[@mikaelbihl-matias9462]

The Delta s4 lacked more developement but in the hands of Henri the car and the driver were unbeatable

[@world-rally-]

@@mikaelbihl-matias9462 wtf you are saying, henri had won the Championship with lancia, and the 037 beated the audi quattro, 82, bruh.

[@MegaDanielSK]

They actually had a considerable lead that day. He was ill at the time, yes, but he held very fast pace. The risk wasn’t worth it. Hard to really say why he pushed so hard.

[@7inrain]

Walter Röhrl wrote in his book that Henri was absolutely fearless at the wheel. Unfortunately up to the point that often his warning lights failed him and he had lots of minor crashes. Quote: "With Henri I had the disquieting feeling that there could be a big one."

[@postilaatikko7384]

It's not sure if Toivonen was conscious when this happened. He was having fever and had suffered blackouts. I have a gut feeling that he had that and so his driving or the power in the car wouldn't matter if you blackout next to a cliff

[@peterhammer4644]

I am not sure I always like the way Röhrl spoke about Henri.

[@7inrain]

@@peterhammer4644 I am sure if you'd read his book you would recognize the tremendous respect that Walter Röhrl had for Henri's abilities at the wheel. Just the next sentence after what I quoted: "In Corsica Henri had the flu and he was driving such unearthly that nobody could even remotely keep up." At another place he wrote: "At that time the finn [Henri] could drive faster than me, even when I had an absolutely perfect delivery. I thought a lot about him, his youth, his savagery and about him having seemingly no fear at all."

[@peterhammer4644]

@@7inrain ok, fair enough. Haven't read his book.

[@paulvisage9730]

I was 14 when this happened remember it being talked about all over tv and newspapers. He was one of the best sergio one of the best co-drivers. I loved group b then and would love too see some of those old group brally cars in action

[@carlosmagnus717]

That rally was a insane kms. of timed stages. Corsica in the 70s and 80s was the true "ironman" of rallying. With winding stages that some took more than 1 hour to travel, the longest in that edition of 86 was the last one of almost 84 km. Which along with those cars with turbo engines with more than 500 HP, super stressful to drive. It meant that during any break in any regrouping, the pilots needed the care of physiotherapists to relieve fatigue. A pilot with a bad flu, medicated, not being able compete, an absolutely irresponsible team boss who should not have let him race. A car with quite poor passive safety measures, like almost all Group B cars. Delta S4 was also a car with a power delivery that was too abrupt (the double supercharging that sought especially torque on low engine speeds became too abrupt, and only Henri could control it, but at the cost of taking many risks. And finally, the misfortune, or bad luck, of the impact of the car against some trees that broke one of the fuel tanks, with the engine very close to them, causing the imminent explosion and fire of the car, without time to get out car cabin. These are the possible reasons why Toivonen had the fatal accident, which unfortunately we still regret today.

[@johngeren1053]

Contemporary reports was that the gas tank was punctured by a broken chassis tube, not a limb.

[@Minx5892]

Apparently, Henri would have blackouts after a neck injury, so one theory is he had a blackout during the corner.

[@forcedinduction2918]

Ive been to this spot 3 times and i draw the same opinion everytime i go there

[@mrwinstonwolfe]

Another theory I have heard is tunnel vision syndrome caused by the sheer pace of that car

[@forcedinduction2918]

@@mrwinstonwolfe the stage its self is very tricky ive driven it 3 times the latest time was last year my 1st trip i nearly went off the road myself just before the spot as the corner tightens and there is nothing but a large drop pace notes it very difficult to make in corsica

[@mrwinstonwolfe]

@@forcedinduction2918 thanks for the insight

[@forcedinduction2918]

@@mrwinstonwolfe ive been all over the island driving the roads used as stages in 1986 its took nearly 10 years to find them all a good insight into what they all faced in my view you would of needed to be super human to drive them cars on that island !

[@tdyerwestfield]

You'd imagine a twitch of understeer or simply carrying too much speed into the corner on slightly the wrong line coming out of the right-hand kink would've caused Toivonen's crash.

[@Erowens98]

Could also have been a brake failure contributing to the excess speed.

[@jam_plays_games]

tdyerwestfield - Ball Street OG sounds to me that the wheel-hopped and lost control. I’ve seen that happen to stock and touring cars all the time. It causes the tire to bounce, forcing the car to go straight and making it harder to brake. On a tight corner with no wall that could easily be tragic

[@carcontrolcommitment]

@John Watson unfortunately the most likely cause is the one you don't want to believe, either a mis called or mis heard pace note. The way he went off is not dissimilar to that kind of problem. Didn't make the corner or react to the corner speed until he was on it, hence limited marks on the road. Similar thing happened to Meeke last year. Just jumped clean off the road after a wrong pace note call.

[@jussiuutaniemi3767]

@@carcontrolcommitment Timo Salonen comments about that corner were very specific, it was having exclamation points all over the notes + all sorts of warnings. Evidently the most critical turn on that Corte-Taverna stage. He described it feels like the road just disappears when you drive in 120 and slow down to 70 coming out of it. Bruno Saby, Jean Ragnotti all said it was a deceptively dangerous spot. Michele Mouton (?) I think commented that a car will easily oversteer unless on a perfect line in it cos of uneven surface just before the curve. Even without technical problems or a wrong note, a really hazardous spot. We need incar footage guys. Live from Delta S4 to get to the bottom of this. .....

[@tilentgamer8758]

Thats the reason I hate understeer

[@jukkakarna7810]

Those were the days. I was in middle of my 20s. Henri dies just before i start working in they firm. Workin in Toivonen to delivery car parts all over south Finland. I met mr.Pauli Toivonen about 2 times,and i remember it. I work there only about 2 months,but i just feel that sorrow. I was lucky to have a light scratch to legend. RIP Henry.

[@oibal60]

Had the pleasure of watching Henri in the Rothman's Circuit of Ireland Rally in the early 1980's.

[@jussiuutaniemi3767]

I have some flashes in my memory , 82 circuit of Ireland , Henkka finishing 3rd with a broken hand , driving like a maniac , even had time to go to doctor or something like that 😅 I was very young in 82. Later on in life, tried to find some footage to refresh my memories. Opel with Vatanen, McRae , Henkka, great team👆

[@pacovl46]

Toivonen was sick and taking medication for his flu. The cars were too powerful for this kind of track, several drivers complained about that, saying their brains couldn’t keep up. According to another rally driver, Toivonen suffered from blackouts since the neck injury he sustained the previous year.

[@Mart77]

Cars weren't too powerful for the track, cars were too powerful for themselves. They had tremendous amount of power for a rally car but tyres had very low grip, suspension technology was well stuck in 1980s and safety was nonexistent. I'm not saying that these cars were built unsafe on purpose - but if you look at the photos of crashed group B cars, you'd see tha these are all crumbled up like a beer cans that were stepped on. Seems like rollcages that were supposed to protect the team were made out of thin walled aluminium piping

[@pacovl46]

@ well, Toivonen went off and then down a mountainside through some trees at considerable speed. The car then exploded and the Kevlar plastic reinforced body went up in flames. So, I’m not surprised the car looked crumbled up. I don’t know about Lancia, but the roll cage in the Audi S1 is fucking insane! I saw one hands one and it looked like a hybrid between a really fancy V12 header tuned for sound and a kraken. In regards to the cars to be too powerful, it’s the words of the people who actually drove them in rallies. It’s mentioned in Toivonen’s Wikipedia page. The Lancia S4 did 0-100 km/h in 2.4 seconds, on gravel!

[@Mart77]

@@pacovl46 Or look at the photos of Attilio Bettega's crashed Lancia - absolutely nothing left of it. Couldnt say it was any stronger than standard car.

[@pacovl46]

@Mart77 that's only the left side and just with any car there's crumble zones that are supposed to disintegrate. The passenger cabin was still intact and that's what matters. From the right side the car looked pretty good and don't forget the speed of impact. You can say what you want, but rally cars in general are built stronger than normal cars. Even back in the day!

[@biturbo]

Never forget Henri and Sergio.1986 was a good and evil year, my favourite rally cars of all of time but gave us a lot of sadness

[@Sokeritoppavuori]

Henri Toivonen's brother Harri said in finnish interview that it was very likely that the gas pedal went throught the cars floor. The floor was very thin and it had happened once before for clutch pedal and for gas pedal in Lancia Delta S4. Those pictures also prove it because there were no braking marks. Source: yle.fi/urheilu/3-6589427

[@Marvdogger2]

It happened to another Lancia driver aswell on a test but lucklily he hit the engine kill switch and stopped the car. The footwell was made from carbon/kevlar so it would wear through overtime.

[@CBJRacing]

Hard to tell from just the video but do the drivers usually coast through the first part then brake when it tightens? Or is the entry tight enough that they have to be braking on entry? With a long run up to the corner he would definitely have been full throttle, but if it's a tight turn he would need to brake for it. If the throttle was stuck wide open I think we would see heavy brake marks after his initial brake when he let off the gas and released the throttle was stuck. If it was a turn you normal coast through then I would expect to just see the light brake before the edge like we see here because he wouldn't have been prepared to brake for it and been caught off guard. Just my thoughts

[@marting693]

Sound like a possible explanation.

[@massimilianobonifacio5938]

It's not the only one possible explanation. Maybe Henry lost his senses, somebody thought was due to fuel intoxication added to his flu.

[@c.g.c2067]

Naa, I don’t think so. I read a few things about it and many experts reckon they simply misjudged the entry of the corner.

[@thegreenbean5891]

Am i remembering correctly that he was violently ill, that day? With flu?

[@92trdman]

According to the report , ....He take medicine before the race

[@xxwalhalaxxmozza7415]

The GreenBean most of my mistakes while driving artics were on days where I drove ill with flu etc, it massively played with my concentration

[@thegreenbean5891]

@@xxwalhalaxxmozza7415 Yeah, that's easy to imagine.

[@daos3300]

right, so not much of a mystery. concentration well below par, driving a monstrously fast, difficult car on a challenging circuit. the really sad part is that someone always has to die before things change.

[@thegreenbean5891]

@@daos3300 yeah, that car was a deathtrap. They literally sat on the fuel tank. I was a fan of the Audi myself.

[@Sp4mMe]

It's this sort of thing that's worth remembering when people these days complain about racing not being "pure" anymore and so on. True, perhaps. But nowadays Toivonen wouldn't have died.

[@primuscaligula6197]

It's very easy to complain when sitting in front of the tv watching the races. As an Austrian I feared for the lives of Berger in Imola, Ratzenberger in Imola and Wendlinger in Monaco, sadly all fears came true with the death of Ratzenberger. I'm very happy that drivers are seldom hurt these days and enjoy the races more than back in the 90ies.

[@matthiasbianchi8383]

Tragedy but maybe no mystery. A very good friend of mine, at the time competing in the Italian and European Autocross championship, was on regular base in Abarth. Since immediately after the crash, the reason of it was thought to have been the gas pedal sticking down. Toivonen’s car, chassis 211, had a fiber body, like all S4 and the gas’s pedal stop was hitting directly the fiberglass. After Toivonen’s crash, a metal plate was immediately riveted to protect the fiberglass of the other S4 from the gas pedal’s impact. Obviously there wasn’t any evidence of this theory, because the fiberglass was burned by the fire but this is what was circulating in Abarth because they fund evidence, in the other cars, that the fiberglass body was getting weakened from the continuous impacts of the gas pedal and at some point the stop could go through and wouldn’t come back. It’s a fact that Abarth decided to modify the gas pedal’s stop.

[@malygos9301]

He did interviews earlier that season in Monte Carlo saying the car lifted out of left hand acceleration one of the fins in the other s4 said the same thing the car felt like a jet accelerating into lefts and the car would lift off the ground. The rear brakes also went out constantly a few of the races he shifted all braking to the front because the rears burned out, also the tires they used sucked on dry tarmac that's why what he did was so shocking corsica was Michelin country and was superior on tarmac. Im guessing he was exhausted, brakes were still being shitty the car lofted put of the left and that's all it took for their tragic demise.

[@thealeofficialchannel9327]

Tiziano Siviero told (Miki Biasion's co-driver), on Miki Biasion's book, that when they arrived on the crash place and get out of the car, the were able to hear the Sergio Cresto's (Harri Toivonen's co-driver) screams... They were absoulutely two rally Gods and they will be remembered forever in the rally's history; rest in peace champions!

[@jamesmcdonnell6702]

To see and hear a Group B car driven in anger was a visceral captivating experience, add a driver like Henri Toivonen or Colin Mc Rae unforgetable may the memory of all great drivers never fade especially on Irish tarmac.

[@oldtimer7635]

Thank you for this, greetings from Finland.

[@thomas316]

Great content! Far better than the F1 over-analysis and bumbling.

[@jayrex690]

100% agree, the F1 content is trash, I make sure to avoid it like the plague now, this however is a nice change and a great (although very sad) subject to focus on for any rally fans, I'm not quite old enough to remember Group B but I love it as if I was there!

[@indoshakermaker]

Don't like the F1 contents, dont watch em. Leave the complaining to the teenage girls.

[@raychambers3646]

Sometimes the over-analysis is longer than the race! Only watch the highlights now .Not really missed the F1 this year.

[@finalmckinney4680]

I was rally fanitc and Sergio and Henri were my absolute idols, was totally devistated when I heard about this tragedy, thanks for the memorial guys ,

[@TheVentour79]

Henry was with a huge flu all week, taking lot of drugs to treat fever, and even on youtube videos of that days, everybody can see how sleepy he was. Nobody no for sure what happen, (like if he will be champ or not) but i bet that no other team director would let him go for the road on that day. Fiorio knows well how Herny was physically and at the time, they ignored how the drugs start to work on the mental part. If we put a car with a insane power, with S4 standards on tarmac it was a huge cocktail that Cesare Fiorio should have avoided. Also Giorgio Pianta had talk about this at the weekend. We never know what happened, but i am more surprised if Henry and Sergio make it without a crash on his state. I have some documentaries, even some on old VHS about that, but everybody can tell how Henry was here on Tour de Corse 86 KZbin videos. About the ban of Gr.B, Marc Surer death on 1986 ADAC Rallye Hessen helped too. However, it don´t solve nothing, next year on Monte another death and 2 years later the driver fatalities peaked in to 5 deaths only in the first three rounds of the championship. RIP Henry/Sergio. true legends.

[@peacemaker4991]

Like Henri told his last interview that "this is crazy rally. We have driven four hours just today and a modern car like this you just can`t do it. One doesn't have the brains enough for this thing."

[@MrHBSoftware]

got goosebumps watching this.....i have had a broken steering u joint from the steering collumn to the rack....that would definetely explain the trajectory and the late skid marks in a desperate attempt to brake....that could have been investigated from the car wreck respect to Henri from Portugal...rest in peace

[@CaptainSeamus]

Not easily. The wreck burned and was basically just the spaceframe by the time they got it out. That's part of why it's such a mystery what exactly happened - there just wasn't enough left to be able to tell for sure.

[@0Zolrender0]

another stupid thing Group B was known for was crowds of fans on the track waiting for the cars, and just moving back as the car got close to them. Even the drivers said this was crazy. I am glad that was also stopped.

[@SteveM-ly7oy]

The accident was caused by the following, or a combination of the following: 1) Henri was recovering from a bout of 'flu. He was very, very tired. Look at him after the first day. Absolutely knackered. Moreover, he was driving ten tenths even though he had a big lead. Why did he continue like this? 2) Alen and Toivonen had smelt fumes in the cars during practice. Was it a factor? 3) The pace notes were wrong. Is it terrible to say that? 4) Something broke on the car?? 5) He had a blow out? 6) He blacked out for some reason.

[@georgebourlokas5788]

You forgot one more,they give the s4 an extra boost and they rich at 700 hp it is simple the car was dangerous !!!

[@lucacalderone2377]

I remeber exactly the day, where I was...what I’m doing....Some newspaper and Tv said that Toivonen, started for the practice with a little flu, 38 temperature....but now, we can only speak and remember two great champions we lost.....

[@elevenpsy]

Was this the one that was on the Faces of Death video many years ago? I believe they had in-car footage but it cut out right after they went over the barrier

[@castrotroy6622]

What was left of the lancia after the crash was just unbelievable (R.I.P Henri & Sergio).

[@dorientjewoller113]

Ask Walter Röhrl about Lancia, and you'll be understanding why he crashed.

[@marting693]

Right, he called it a dangerous car with to much power. Also said that the Fin sakes to turn the power back during this rally.

[@world-rally-]

But Lancia is a mystery with one of the best cars of the world. My dad has a Lancia Delta integrale EVO

[@sugarnads]

MOINCRAFT. TV not the same car mate. Not even close.

[@sugarnads]

Youve only got to watch videos of that S4. You can see its chassis was overwhelmed. It looks like a bloody handful.

[@world-rally-]

@@sugarnads yeah i know man, a 2 litre turbocharger with 320 HP and a super and turbocharger with 600hp is a different. But with this crash, the Delta integrale was born

[@issackaiser]

From what I’ve heard, He was tired and ill, the car is just one terribly unsafe monster to drive and just by looking alone I can tell the road was also one of the main problem. When you got a tired and ill guy driving one of the most untamable mechanical beast through unforgiving corner with unexpected curve and poor visibility, this what happens. Considering that the car got up in flame after the impact, the fuel cell built or placement is definitely poorly done. From what i can tell, that car was built to be nothing but fast without a single glint of care for the driver safety. What the hell was Lancia thinking? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@thebuddhasmiles]

What every other manufacturer was thinking. Winning at any cost.

[@RooDBwoY]

Exactly. They were all stupidly fast, dangerous cars where everyone wanted to win.

[@peggygeren4169]

There is helicopter video of Marc Surer's crash in the Ford RS200. Ford bragged about its modern construction methods and materials and safety, but it went up in a huge fireball when it collided with trees

[@Neon-Neste]

"Henkka" was our Finn's Senna of rallying...

[@psk1w1]

It was a tragic accident which resulted in the deaths of a driver and co-driver. But it is worth keeping a sense of proportion. No-one else was injured or killed. Group B was notorious for the crowds standing on the road only to part as the cars passed by, and trying to touch the cars. A few were killed, some lost fingers which were found in the cars. Given the wanton risk-taking by spectators as a whole, it is remarkable how few were killed during that time. Think of the great cross-country races like the Mille Miglia. In 1957, Alfonso de Portago's crash (at 150mph in a Ferrari 335, caused by a blown tyre) killed not only him, his co-driver, and 9 spectators, two of them children hit by a road-side mile-stone. But the worst was the 1955 Le Mans disaster, which killed not only the driver Pierre Levegh, but also an estimated 80, or possibly lots, LOTS more. The authorities simply didn't know how many were killed. Hundreds had horrible injuries - there was lots of fuel in the car, and it had magnesium castings which just would not stop burning.... That crash led to the outright banning of car racing in several countries. Don't think this sort of alarm is new. In the very early days of motoring, there were lots of long distance races on public roads. So many drivers and spectators were killed that this was banned in many European countries, France and the UK included.

[@BlueHopi144]

He was my favorite rally driver at the time ......

[@Lee01Mr]

He will always be remembered in my heart. What a legend! Last year I met Walter Röhrl. Another legend! Wish I saw these missiles fly by back then.

[@Sennaxm71]

Lucky man, I'm not jealous, much 😂

[@purwantiallan5089]

2021 still remembered this epic documentary about "Toivonen DOOM Corner".

[@thebrummierailenthusiasts5329]

He will be sadly missed by millions of rally fans

[@H0LDENSUX]

Why not included the video record of the incident that took place? I was looking only for it in this video.

[@thebrummierailenthusiasts5329]

Jari Matti Latvala who won the rally of Sweden in 2008 dedicated his win to him because he became the youngest ever wrc winner after henri tovinen

[@blue_seabreeze1016]

What's the group B and how different is it? Can someone please explain.

[@HandicapRacer]

Henri was simply, on the edge of his tires, the slight rubber marks are from sliding, not braking. He was maybe 2-3kmh too fast. That's it. That's all, he would have locked up otherwise, but he didn't. The rubber transfers to the road AFTER its passed operating temperature.

[@lite4919]

The warning signs were there in Group B for a while before this accident, Portugal 86 had several spectators killed, so FISA was running out of patience with Group B

[@AaronUnknownPerformance]

I thought the Ford Rs200 that went into the crowd ended it?

[@devandrasimanjuntak1646]

Aaron Unknown that was the tragedy that made everyone aware of just how dangerous Group B is. It was in Portugal, a couple rallies before Corsica. Henri’s incident was the last straw, the FIA held a meeting immidiately after this incident which results in the banning of Group B for the 1987 season.

[@diogosilva4585]

The accident in portugal was pretty bad. Straight into people at 70 80mph. Not bushes not trees not anything. Just people. It was pretty bad.

[@Shampsuli]

@@diogosilva4585 Yeah and most of the people who died were children if i remember correctly.

[@diogosilva4585]

@stephen john gray i think there were some media guys in the middle of the road and the driver tried to avoid those but went into a crowd

[@Odysseuss.]

It was a series of bends, the driver avoided some ***** in the road but was completely off line to make the next part of the series...

[@drax5872]

If I had my pick of any Rally car it would probably be the Lancia 037, but God damn the Lancia Delta was a wicked machine! Group B is/was so brilliant to watch, but it wasn't worth the cost. RIP to all the Rally legends who died doing what they loved, and thank you for entertaining us all with your brilliance ✌

[@calebjohnson140]

I'm sure a lot of people have brought this up but to me it sounds a lot like a pace note error. I saw a video recently where it happened in modern rally so I'm sure it could happen then.

[@lloydjones7590]

My brother and visited this place back 27 years ago and I was convinced they dropped the right rear wheel over the bank then the Lancia went over , I never thought he went straight on. Also Toivonen raced F3 cars and that approach to that corner is very wide then tightens immediately.

[@siliquaesid703]

That looks like a brake failure, possibly major fade. Had that a few times. You press the peddle and nothing happens. Another is steering failure or maybe a deflated tyre. A rear left flat at that corner would lift the ground pressure or the front right. Looking at the minimal and one sided skid marks, I suggest this was the cause. RIP to great drivers. May your roads be ever clear and the weather sunny. 🙏

[@245-TRIOXIN]

Is there any info on what happened to Henri at the point of death? I always thought both men were incinerated in the car, but recently i read that Henri was actually thrown out of the car.

[@krzych91krk]

Very informative piece. Thank you

[@ChrisCoombes]

2:47 Amazing to see that photo showing no wall.

[@xLIVEDz]

The most beautiful car ever handled by one of my favourite drivers, the sight of that car coming through the narrow asphalt roads is something that just takes my breath away.

[@nealivers7479]

Unbelievably talented...and BRAVE drivers/co-pilots, in Group B. These cars were ground-bound missles, and could absolutely haul the mail. Self-sealing Gas tanks, and many other types of tech, probably could have helped/saved many racers; so the guys who followed them, owe much to these guys. Racing Group B and F1, was insanely dangerous in this time period...RIP to all of these highly talented Motorsport Gods

[@oceanhome2023]

The only laws you cannot violate ..... are the Laws of Physics

[@kevfromnorwichUKGGKev]

Except if you're American talking about 911 :P lol

[@boukstraus]

Try telling that to all the lunatics that think we live on a big ball covered in water!

[@RST-R-MODS]

@@boukstraus ,ohh,a flatard......

[@bayanon7532]

They kept saying that the crash changed Rallying but only said it ended Group B and some other group. Why? What was it about those groups? So what were the big changes?

[@saracen7774]

Petrol tanks under the front seats is an awful place to put them..no safety in mind at all. R.I.P Henri and co.

[@freakysteve140281]

Lack of skid marks I would think they were doing everything in their power to drive out of the situation.

[@nitramluap]

Well, with maximum braking you shouldn’t see any marks on the road. There is less traction when skidding (which leaves a mark).

[@mfgt4595]

Martin Holmes walked 4km and the car was gone? The burning car was red hot for hours. Someone was desperate to get it out of preying eyes and cameras in great urgency then. How did it catch fire? Why no attempt at going around the corner? Why the very very late braking? The car taken away so quickly from there so quickly ? Lots of unanswered questions, a bit of a mystery isn't it?

[@mfgt4595]

I was 20 years old at the time . Done a a few rallies by then inc motoring news event. So I remember that day crystal clear. I knew that was the end of Group B . Crowds or mobs in Europe were it's death as well. Crowds on the Lombard RAC Rally was so well behaved .

[@alikaty2k7]

There's actually a low res video of this accident shot from across the other side of the valley. Just enough detail to get an idea of how very violent it was... up in flames almost immediately. Love Group B, but it had to end. The only positive thing about fatal accidents in motorsport though is they always lead to significant improvements in safety, so ultimately those who lost their lives helped effect important changes & thus didn't do so in vain.

[@toivonencresto]

Group B is nothing with Henri’s accident. That could happen with a group A also. Henri had a mechanical issue, and when you ho straight on in a corner, and you are on a hill, this is what sadly happens.

[@royaltyallen1162]

Link plsss

[@HairyMonkeyification]

@@royaltyallen1162 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hoKlgnamoLKFkLc

[@deggis4]

@@toivonencresto But the car instantly exploded/cought fire (another similar accident: Marc Surer in a Ford RS200 in a German national rally). Group B cars used exotic lightweight materials (fiberglass) and sometimes the petrol tank was under the driver's seat without any isolation.

[@eiyhka8779]

These cars had so much personality, originality between each one..

[@the_earlybirf1170]

If I remember correctly Henry said in an interview he was feeling sick and physically exhausted. The Lancia team also put him under orders to continue the race too. It was probably because he was exhausted and feeling sick so he lost control.

[@carlobrotto7132]

Lancia putting him under orders to continue on racing is something I've never heard about, probably you invented this fake news. No team would ever push a driver of theirs to get on the pitch if he's not healthy, the driver knows perfectly if he can do the race or not, and usually he wants to compete and take the risk.

[@Vincenzo-wn1or]

A grander memorial at the site is appropriate to honour these really brave people who put their lives on the line for the enjoyment of their fans. Vale Henri and Sergio.

[@TheLRider]

Have been there twice to pay homage to the great man.. Such a sad event when Henry and Sergio were at the peak of their performance and Lancia dominated Group B and world rallying. I still wear the T Shirt in memory of them and the car. BTW the Tour De Corse Hystorique is superb and the island of Corsica is too. Usually held in early October when the Corsican weather can still be beautiful.

[@tomahawk1556]

🙏 May Good God Blessed Henri Toivonen & Sergio Cresto to a Better World & Realm ... 🌻🌿🌍

[@markmark5269]

A little exaggerated, but don't get me wrong, a true tragedy, but a number of events led up to this being one of the deciding factors, it was NOT THE deciding factor to stop Group B as is offered here. Bettaga dying in Corsica the year before with Ari having a huge crash, Ari again nearly dying in a massive crash in Argentina, saved only by a helicopter landing within minutes and getting him to a hospital only minutes before he would have bled to death, 5 spectators killed in Portugal, and other close calls. Note that all the top drivers pulled out of Portugal with many complaints about the speeds. Henri's crash has clear suggestion of a jammed throttle, car continued wide with almost no skid marks as the power overcame any attempted braking.

[@Mr037rally]

There were 3 killed in Portugal, Bettaga's crash killed him coz he hit a tree nothing to do with to much power, and Christian Geistdorfer and Walter Rorhl have both said he was just too fast on the part of the road where he crashed. The 1 accident that no-one seems to mention was Marc Surer's RS200 crash on the Hessen Rally which was being broadcast live on German TV, you can see him being thrown clear on fire into a river as the car hits a tree sideways on and just explodes killing his co-pilot. Also, people forget that Group B was being replaced in 1987 with Group S which had a power limit of 300 hp and were basically prototypes that had to look vaguely like a production car, the best example was the Toyota 222D which looked like a 1st gen MR2. But that was canceled at the same time as Group B, but the reason Balestre canceled Group S was a fuck you to the manufacturer's as Peugeot were going to take FISA to court as their own rules stated that the had to give a 2-year notice if the formulas where to be changed or canceled. Here is a link to probably the best documentary about Group B called - Madness on wheels :-www.dailymotion.com/video/x14ems5

[@markmark5269]

Yes John, and if anything, Surer's crash was the most spectacular of them all, all respect offered for the consequences of it. It also ruined Surer's F1 career. I always felt Group B was destined to be stopped simply due to how popular it had become compared to F1, FIA's baby. Imagine having a motorsport class that people actually wanted to watch ...

[@FoMoCo123]

Colin McRae and Nicky Grist had an almost identical crash in their Focus and both survived. The cars had safety advances as a result of Toivenen and Cresta crash.

[@Cobra_427]

no brake marks, wonder if it could've been a brake failure

[@bugattieb110ss]

Henri was my hero as I'd followed rallying as a young teenager since the late 70's. I was there when he won the RAC in 1980 and followed him closely from then on. As to all the bollocks about it being a mystery as to why he went off the road, it was a rallying accident, and Henri bless him, was an absolute master at having spectacular accidents. It's just that this particular one, he didn't survive. No fucking mystery about it whatsoever. Were Ari Vattenen's terrible Argentina accident, Attilio Bettega's fatal crash, Joaquim Santos' accident in Portugal, Marc Surer's near-fatal crash, and David Llewelyn's huge crash on the '86 Welsh all 'mysteries'??? Answer. NO. All Rallying accidents.

[@dusankocisevic6823]

SO TRUE……… Henkka had so manu DNF’s in his career, for so many reasons. But TOO MANY accidents for sure. His driving style speaks for itself……..

[@veg4life.]

R.I.P To the both of them driver & co-driver, so sad

[@Chalky.]

I've heard people argue that group B should return because current rally cars are faster now than group B was then, but that makes no sense because it's improved tyres, brakes, suspension etc now that allows current cars to be that fast with their limited power,

[@lonoreturns]

Yes but current rally cars are subject to very strict regulations. Group B cars only had to homologate 200 Road cars and then had free rain to make whatever they wanted for rallying. No regulation at all. Thats my understanding of the rules.

[@gregghatfield9946]

Bless those guys for their bravery and will to entertain and to want to compete ... Hope you felt no pain ,, RIP

[@hyljix]

You better hope they lost consciousness immediately when they hit that tree

[@TheGolfingCrowe]

People always forget the second person on the day of major accidents. Mentioning Senna at imola (who is my idol), but you can't forget Roland Ratzenberger either. Much like with Toivonen, everybody forgets his co-driver. RIP all involved

[@markaylott1780]

People need to look at it in that they died doing what they loved!

[@Tindebinde]

The real reason for the accident: gas pedal got stuck and didnt lift up and braking didnt help.

[@lukeheppu9211]

Didnt Henri say before race that hes not feeling all right. And also back then there was multiple rallies per day, nowdays there is limit. Correct if i am wrong

[@deggis4]

> multiple rallies per day, What... You probably mean the amount of the stages and the distance of the stages. In that way the rallies today are a lot shorter. Now the standard lenght is 300-350km over 3-4 days, and back in the day the total competitive distance was two or even three times longer (and that's excluding the Safari Rally).

[@lukeheppu9211]

@@deggis4 yeah thats what i meant, its because im finnish

[@scottwilson4798]

2:41 is that structure the chassis of the car??

[@frazerguest2864]

Scott Wilson : Yes, that’s the spaceframe / chassis as it was being pulled back up the ravine. Everything else had burnt. RIP Henki.

[@jussiuutaniemi3767]

@@frazerguest2864 the impact from the tree hit is clearly seen on the tubular steelframe just behind and under the driver's seat position. Bent badly upwards. Caused fuel tank rupture and subsequent fire. Chassis is probably bent even more from here and there due to the effects of fire and possibly also the towing back on the road afterwards.

[@frazerguest2864]

Jussi Uutaniemi : Thanks for the info. The dragging of the spaceframe back up the ravine wouldn’t have caused any further damage in regards to bending it further out of shape. Those chassis are pretty light for their size. Two men can easily lift / carry / manoeuvre one of them.

[@jussiuutaniemi3767]

@@frazerguest2864 yeah , S4 weight for rallying events was less than a thousand kilos. It was kind of like a formula car , front part had nothing but tubes. Kevlar body parts very light. Volumex compressor in the engine compartment weighted about 7kilos. 500+ hp , acceleration 2,9sec 0-100km/h, you start to think what it's like on a narrow mountainside road ....on an island where the longest straight is evidently the airport landing strip....

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

"worst crash in Motorsport history" yeah no.... Le man's 1955

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

@sayrxx official just because you liked him doesn't mean his crash was the most devastating

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

@sayrxx official but did it nearly end Motorsports as a whole?

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

@sayrxx official and?

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

@sayrxx official weird, I never said it did

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

@sayrxx official missing a word there dumbass

[@RavingMadJock]

The S4 fireball incident was due too happen' especially fatal considering the positioning of fuel tank !

[@tyqwax]

Its not the position itself but the fuel tank had a renforcement plat under it but they removed it to lose weight plus that there was no roll cage