The Great Support Debate [2024] feat. KarQ, Custa, AVRL & Emiliath

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Timestamps
0:00 Opening Thoughts
15:40 Are The Roles Always At Odds With Each Other?
22:50 The Balance & Design of Supports
1:17:30 Ana
1:32:24 Is There Too Much Healing In Overwatch?
1:43:45 Baptiste
2:01:00 Brigitte
2:09:50 Illari
2:21:09 Kiriko
2:38:00 Lifeweaver
2:49:30 Lucio
2:58:48 Mercy
3:17:05 Moira
3:25:55 Zenyatta
3:34:30 Concluding Thoughts

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 5th July 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-support-debate-2024 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@ErikBPG]

Petition to have Spilo on every podcast

[@Summonick2]

I’m down

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

@@ErikBPG he literally adds to every conversion he's apart of, at this point I think it should be the spilo and svb podcast because svb is the best moderator I've seen in debate style podcast while spilo is just incredibly well versed on the community, he understands it better than any other content creator. Svb is always talking about how people complain he doesn't get the low ranks pov but spilos in the trenches all day with low rank players s hes a coach so he gets it, so I'm 100% on board with this.

[@jeffhermance4886]

no

[@joshuafruth6420]

I feel like Avrl basically played the spilo role here..

[@teejay1646]

@@joshuafruth6420 dear god no. Avrl couldn't stop sniffing his own farts for a single second it was unbearable

[@Jetg_]

We should make a podcast with only Freedo and Custa and see who has the worst takes Lol

[@thedofflin]

Freedo has mostly good takes, he can just be a bit hyperbolic

[@myles688]

No, his takes are not mostly good. He speaks in one of the most hypocritical ways I have ever seen.

[@x100bullets]

The Great ‘Bad Takes’ Debate

[@teejay1646]

TF are you on? Acting like AVRL wasn't the sole problem on this podcast. Dudes such an arrogant douche

[@IHJello]

This comment section is about to cook itself in irony. I agree Em and KarQ are fantastic guests. I've advocated for them every since I've been a patron. But to write off a particular guest such as Custa if they have zero value is wild. It's ironic bc you want to treat guests you don't like the way you felt they behaved on the show by not letting them speak. I would like to advocate SVB with forcing guests into a vote instead, or maybe a community poll during the stream. Conversation is necessary, but in the end a solution isn't. This podcast is great bc it invokes ideas not solutions. Albeit I do believe solutions implemented in OW2 have come from this podcast, but its wasnt the intent. So to skip silly debates like homogeny vs identity or 5v5 vs 6v6 just do a vote and keep it short.

[@ranjnijan3446]

Yoo man i don’t know who Emiliath is but Holy God, can you guys especially Custa let her speak before interrupting. She was bringing in good points and bang interrupted…Karq didn’t get to speak hardly either.

[@kawnTTV]

Im glad Custa is here so we can get Blizzards POV

[@nash3timemvp]

LOL, great comment, very true though.

[@BackwardsCourage]

It's so ironic that he called Sam out, but then says Tank still feels bad. Yeah... For how many seasons now? Maybe you'd call that a format issue?

[@user-cy6xl3vd3f]

You mean the guy who calls people "grifter invoking hatred" and "Ben Shapiro of OW" ?

[@JonnyZerep]

Custa here to collect his blizzard check

[@Flash2icey2676]

@@BackwardsCourage

[@kinshra639]

I wish KarQ talked more and Custa much less 😂.

[@boboyobo12]

i think u mean avrl, bro will not let others participate

[@ventus3610]

Thats on him... Bro got the chances to do but did nothing with it...

[@mega17]

@@ventus3610 No, it is not. We aren't animals. Compassion is what makes us curious and intelligent and allowed inventors to thrive. We can do better by holding space for others.

[@Summonick2]

@@mega17that’s stupid. People can deny space given to them and that’s ok. That’s not their weakness, nor their peers weakness.

[@josephreynolds2401]

@@Summonick2 Just a samito fellatio poster. Tarnishing his faves reputation beyond what's already been done.

[@J.R.Swish1]

Having Custa here after him throwing personal attacks on YOUR friend is crazy unexpected but hey, I respect the neutrality.

[@laughingnotlooking]

Right? I came expecting Custa to offer some form of apology. But watching how annoyed he kept getting when Avrl or Svb talked about 6v6! I am very pleased. Even when they bring up Samito's name, he starts to frown, or is ready to leave the room for the 10th time. This was actually better than any apology. Hopefully Sam sees this. Its strange how things aren't working out as he hoped it would. Maybe he can cry to the OW dev team, or ask to joyride Porsches again.

[@agentwowza]

Tbh if SVB did stop having Custa on these podcasts specifically because of that, I wouldn't put it past someone who namecalls other CCs to start drama that SVB might not want to deal with. People like Custa are just a problem you gotta live with.

[@laughingnotlooking]

@@agentwowza I think it's the opposite, I think Svb put him here just to annoy him. With all the hate he's been getting. He picked the perfect time to let Custa come onto the show, and make a fool of himself. With Aaron soon to announce 6v6 coming back. Plus Avrl not making any sense😅, causing straight confusion in the call. He's the lowest rank here, Silver player sprouting pure nonsense. This was perfect, svb is a mastermind.

[@ryannkeenan9528]

Nightmare blunt rotation

[@LouisScholes]

heheheha

[@Maaroooon]

LMAO i was about to comment this

[@bruhbruh7660]

This shit is awful so far

[@AlexTheHorrid]

Honestly lmaaaooo

[@ChunkyDLuffy]

😂😂

[@wuterhorse6214]

Damn I never would have guessed that there would be a more insufferable guest than freedo but Custa proved me wrong

[@nazzify6417]

I haven’t even watched the video yet, but as soon as i saw custas name i knew how this podcast was gonna go.

[@x100bullets]

lol 😂

[@teejay1646]

You're joking right? Avrl was unbearable here

[@TheGoatJohnny]

I’m guessing Custa is on the support debate because it would be a little awkward to put him on a Dps debate.

[@candy1049]

Never put Custa on again 😊 [BTW - How to make Swift Step fairer? Make it's range 15 meters if Kiriko doesn't have LoS with the ally, instead of 35.]

[@JonnyZerep]

I second this

[@DriplessShrimp]

Start the petition

[@IHJello]

It's ironic how inline your swift step solution is to Custas

[@legendlegamer]

@@IHJellostop responding to everyone defending custa it’s very weird 💀

[@teejay1646]

@@candy1049 never put avrl on again. Consistently awful takes and a condescending douche to boot

[@Jay_daewi]

I hate when people call creators shills, but holy shit custa is riding blizzard hard as hell

[@eagerinspirit]

watch out someone might say you're a blind samito fan for having a contradictory opinion

[@juiceboxthetoast1767]

Custa getting it from both ends from daddy blizzard 😂

[@KingYahtzee]

Custa lost so much of my respect and good will after seeing his comments/stabs at Samito. I'm a 6v6 fan who thinks Sam gets too angry, but Custa was just an absolute jerk to him personally because he can't stop brown nosing Blizzard. I would only call 1 person a legit shill and his name is Custa.

[@whitegrill8809]

custa really getting paid like an OF creator with how hard hes riding blizzard rn

[@Summonick2]

@@eagerinspiritsamito fans are just the ones that can’t stop with the 6v6 stuff.

[@WhereIsYourID]

The fact Custa really sat there and argued that skill ceilings should be lower so that the game is more approachable for new players is F'n absurd. That is the exact model Activision went with for COD in 2019 and fundamentally ruined the franchise for years. Idc what game it is, a lower skill ceiling makes the game fun for bad players, and ruins the experience for literally everyone else. The average skilled playerbase suffers the most, which are usually who the hardcore fans are. COD did this, and let me say this louder, RUINED THE FRANCHISE. For once I whole heartedly agree with AVRL, raise the skill ceiling and everyone falls in line. Who gives a shit if the game is approachable or not, its almost a decade old.

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

It's funny because skill based match making already does this, and if custa wants to argue that it's the hero designs being easy to pick up than sure but the inverse is also true where you isolate the other half of the roster since for every player that finds it fun bullying bronze players as bastion, you also have the players just wanting to play genji who get bullied off him before they even get to learn him and just leave. So technically you actually isolate less people with avrls way, since in his idea you have all heros actually working with similar challenges rather than one just easily pub stomping everyone and the other struggling every game. And that's what Sends those long time players away is being slapped in the face with that disgusting torb, bastion, orisa, moira mercy comp every game they queue up for.

[@eagerinspirit]

The interesting thing is that even in 6v6, the game WAS easily approachable because of how simple the kits were. Each hero had simple to understand abilities with underlying complexity that emerged if you put in the TIME to learn them. You were rewarded for your commitment. Low skill floor with a high skill ceiling. Why would we want the game to lose that quality by raising the skill floor/lowering the skill ceiling? We'd just push out players who want to be committed instead of rewarding EVERYONE for simply playing and enjoying their characters. It only serves to exclude people from the game.

[@nihili4196]

That's what skill floors are for. Bringing skill ceilings down is never good idea, if anything it's better to make them easier to punish, but still powerful if you get ball rolling

[@crossc1988]

Welcome to the world of Corporate Gaming. You cant have "Highly successful" without pandering to the casual players.

[@shibasouls4422]

This is a great take but MW19 is easily one of the best CODs I’ve ever played, everything after was mid or not nearly as fun

[@toxic_icecream]

Custa said that sojorn got sledgehammerd because devs didn't know what to do with her, I'd argue they know that nerf is just a step in distributing her power in the direction that makes sense. Instead of being rail hitscan character I think it is moving closer to reverse soldier Also people talked about balance vs fun, I think the game is already less fun, because there are no individual pop-off moments anymore, 6-taple kill then vs triple now tops and the 2 left are finished by your teammates, because there is so much mobility, denial, ults very weak The talk about immortalities being necessary evil and everyone agreeing is literal madness though

[@absolute-xero7502]

@@toxic_icecream They should have changed it to "damage reduction field" but that would mean people would have to use their brains when pressing buttons and we can't have that here at blizzard.

[@thedofflin]

I think creating new heroes that are able to do everything was a mistake. The self-synergy and self-sufficiency of these kits is boring as hell to play against and makes many heroes redundant. On the other hand, the simpler heroes suffer from feast or famine and can be counter-picked more easily, especially with so many heroes in the roster now. I don't envy the balance team.

[@capabletie7187]

I think being able to ‘do everything’ is fine, but that hero should not be amazing in every category. Favoritism is definitely part of it. For instance a hero like Zen with zero mobility and the lowest healing should definitely have the best damage to make up for it (and Transcendence definitely needs a buff post DPS passive). I think the newer ‘do everything’ supports (especially Kiri) are Blizzard’s favorites, and the older more 1-dimensional ones like Zen will not be allowed to be meta too long.

[@Kanggaxx]

Exactly, the simpler heroes are counter picked more easily. So why should we make more of them

[@cl4709]

Soft counters are the answer. Where skill is still applicable. Like the old Genji-Cassidy matchup. You Flashbang genji, he’s dead. You deflect the flash, Cass dead. Skill.

[@teencorn9169]

Yep. This new philosophy of making every new character self sufficient is a FATAL mistake for OW. Because u slowly alienate ur loyal fan base that has been here for 8 years not through balance diff but design diff. Now the OW team is in a situation where they have to boost the stats of the outdated heros to make them viable but not address the root of the problem which is these outdated heroes being in an environment with new age heroes; and yes I included Sigma Bap and pretty much all DLC heroes as new age. The work required to redesign every single outdated hero to fit this new OW2 philosophy is ENORMOUS. This is resources that the OW2 team simply doesn’t have. So they either continue the way they’ve been balancing, which is through stats, or they redesign the new age abilities to be more inline with old age. I personally think they’ll just move forward with the strategy that will give them the bag 💰 short term. A shame…

[@thomashigginsmusic]

Custa is horrible to listen to. PLEASE do not have him on the podcast again. Man talks in circles but doesn’t say anything meaningful most of the time. Would rather have literally anyone else

[@agentwowza]

I wouldn't go *that* far, Custa does stop talking when he understands that nobody agrees with his dogshit takes. On the other hand, Freedo is the king of talking in circles and saying nothing for hours on end.

[@vanishhero964]

This game is almost 10 years old, gaining new players shouldn’t even be a top priority it should be keeping your loyal players happy. If they want to make the game more accessible then they need to make it more intuitive

[@nihili4196]

No, not really. Old players will inherently bleed numbers, good game needs sustainable balance of old and new players to even keep numbers the same. The focus on new players isn't a bad thing. But the approach is.

[@MefoWho]

@@nihili4196 Good games keep people. If the only thing tank players say is how shit their role is, why would anyone wanna play that?

[@nihili4196]

@@MefoWho Because they like the role archetype tank presents? But hey, it seems they're doing just that. Tell me why queues are getting longer and less and less people play tank at all? Maybe because this role is so shit, even people who otherwise love tanky characters don't even want to bother. Let's be honest, the only people complaining are people who want to stay despite game being unfun. Normal people just play DPS or something else.

[@MefoWho]

@@nihili4196 im not blaming them ofc. All of my point will just point to how putting a crucial role into 1 person and make them 1v9 will always be hard, and if they cant do that, its miserable

[@chrisvandurme925]

It always feels like there’s some sense of oppositionalism between the roles. It’s almost like not having equal number of players per role means balance is impossible…

[@nihili4196]

You want all roles to have equal game making opportunities. But you want all players to feel equally powerful within their niches. Math doesn't math here indeed.

[@josephreynolds2401]

No other game operates on this logic. It's an asymmetrical game, no amount of "evening out" will make it less asymmetrical. The maps tend to be asymmetrical and the comps are asymmetrical. How does another tank on each side offer up any parity or symmetry in an asymmetric game? Where does your logic even begin?

[@mycelia_ow]

Alright Samito we get it

[@Summonick2]

They need to straight up start banning people that are still huffing the 6v6 gas in every video and chat room

[@josephreynolds2401]

@@Summonick2 Honestly, Samito's following is beyond his control. Every person that criticizes Sam viewpoint gets a barrage of hate on this podcast posting and on other platforms. That's not a following I would be proud of if I were Sam

[@SengokuNoMaou]

I think I'm just gonna skip these if Custa is gonna be around because holy shit he's just bad.

[@juiceboxthetoast1767]

Honestly same here. Biggest shill of the 3 today.

[@Ruby_33]

​@@juiceboxthetoast1767 Ah yes, everyone who I don't like automatically equals a shill. Because I can't handle when someone has an opinion I disagree with.

[@dastokelys7374]

@@Ruby_33 yes if my opinion agrees with something that fundamentally hurts the game of course it’s just an opinion not hurting the game of course please do me a favor and don’t talk

[@dsvd4727]

@@Ruby_33 Dick riding Custa the Pole Polisher is crazy

[@MefoWho]

custa said suzu "shouldnt" be changed because it would kill her, while im here thinking about hanzo's one shot

[@le_m4cho965]

Custa with a horrible take? Not surprised 💀

[@kosmo1638]

Hero that can save her entire team every 12 seconds with the most broken support ult in the game

[@le_m4cho965]

​@@kosmo1638 thats why i didnt watch the last two "Great Support debates" huge downplay imo, i skipped to Kiriko and heard "Yeah, shes A or B" like a character that can TP through walls and give Inmo isnt B. If thats what they say about Kiri idk what to expect from the others 😭 Edit: Yeah they are downplaying the FUCK out of supports, "Bap is B+" "Ilari Ult needs a Buff" like bro those are the only supports i see 💀

[@kosmo1638]

@@le_m4cho965 Dont even get me started on how Kiriko's Ult affects Ult economy. Custa: "if you nerf shuzu then u kill Kiriko", her ult can recharge ultimate's that were just used, let alone game braking CD's like rez, anti nade, immor field, SHUZU, Hog vape, Matrix, shields. I want whatever he's smoking.

[@kielmessersmith1956]

Reworking one of a whole kit of broken abilities would kill her? What a load of horse shit. So I guess it's not worth nerfing any ability because some people will stop playing a hero. 😅

[@Bloomingwhale]

I usually appreciate and enjoy these videos, and I was excited for this one as a Support main, but I have to say that I’m quite disappointed with this episode. I wish I heard more from KarQ and Emiliath (especially her). Within the first hour of the episode, it’s pretty much the AVRL and Custa show. I know SVB can’t force people to talk, and that’s why he probes them when they’ve been quiet for a while, but it was disappointing to see AVRL and especially Custa take over the episode within the first hour and wouldn’t let the other two interject when they wanted to mention something or piggy back off of a point. If I’m quite honest, I didn’t have any issues with ARVL’s point when he was talking about compensating character kits, which Emi was able to clarify (I wonder if it would’ve been clarified sooner if she was allowed to speak), but I was quite turned off seeing how visibly upset Custa got. Considering that I only discovered Custa from OWCS when he was playing on Overwashed, maybe this was just a bad impression I got from him, but as a viewer who usually likes watching these episodes to take things away, seeing Custa get so upset just wasn’t enjoyable to see. I know these episodes are meant to have opposing opinions, and I like seeing how people form them and try to defend it or switch sides, but it didn’t feel like Custa was trying to understand AVRL. SVB, I enjoy these videos since I can learn different aspects of the game such as from a high elo pov, a dev’s pov, a casual pov, and even corporate’s pov, but the first half of this episode was a let down and made me disconnect from it. I hope future episodes improve with moderating, staying on topic, and letting people piggyback without straying too far from the point.

[@oof_robo241]

Bro I feel so bad for Emiliath. They never let her finish a damn sentence 😭 SVB gotta do a better job moderating.

[@purplewine7362]

AVRL

[@WhatIsTheMeta]

Boy I thought Emiliath was gonna go for Arvls throat eventually, like...

[@doomknocker]

People always in the comments saying how great svb does at moderating

[@purplewine7362]

@@doomknocker yes because this is one instance. do you know how data works, at all?

[@oof_robo241]

@@purplewine7362 One instance? Eskay had the same problem with Samito. They literally act like the women on the podcast don't exist. Let's be fr

[@pouria8172]

Sadly, everything custa says is exactly what blizz devs are going for. he is just here to deliver their massage.

[@JonnyZerep]

You would think a person would have a single original thought but I guess that those blizzard checks are just too good

[@TheDevos1]

I don’t see why y’all just call someone a shill when they don’t agree 100% with you on hating the game lol. Like he literally just said he understands why ppl dislike the game just that it isn’t THAT bad.

[@BlueRiptide]

@@TheDevos1 every single call hes in he provides little to no value and goes against what actual good ideas are while singling them out to say why thats not gonna happen

[@pouria8172]

@@TheDevos1 I'm not calling him a shill but I'm stating the fact that this guy doesn't have an opinion on his own and only repeats what blizz devs say. The sad part is he flames anyone who has an opinion and cares about the game more than him and calls them names cause they actually have an opinion and wanna try things to improve the game (like he called samito the ben shepiro of OW. it's ridiculous).

[@teejay1646]

You NPCs need to stop calling everyone shills lmao

[@timallen5073]

Bro I’m only an hour in and I kinda wish custa would turn his mute mic like what is bro yapping about half time

[@Real_MisterSir]

Custa is so deep in Blizzard's pockets. Or at least I hope that's what it is, and it isn't genuinely his own honest takes because god help him if it is.

[@JonnyZerep]

Custa licking those bliz boots day and night

[@glitchym1017]

I thought avrl was yapping just as much as custa if not more and he thinks every character should be more or less the same but that would make the game more stale than it already is

[@JordanYee]

@@glitchym1017 I'd push back on that Avrl one a little bit. He's got his hot takes for sure, but he also sticks up for hero diversity when he thinks it's healthy. He stood up for Swift Step not requiring LOS like KarQ and Custa were discussing, because he thought it would just make it redundant with Guardian Angel, for example.

[@lavitz3045]

​@glitchym1017 Yeah I think you misunderstood Avrl, just like Custa. By well rounded he doesn't mean making all characters the same, he means redistributing the power in their kits (like say taking power away from genjis blade to make him useful outside of the ultimate). He wasn't very clear, but he explained it more than enough to grasp that, it's just hard to hear with Custa yelling. Honestly it sounds mostly like a point tailored to the older out of date heroes

[@thatonepronoun7503]

it's great to have blizzard PR guy on the debate good to know the devs have a spokes person

[@shaheedroylance]

Isnt that basically everyone making bank playing the game.

[@kosmo1638]

@@shaheedroylance everyone but the players : /

[@shaheedroylance]

​@@kosmo1638Ye, its jus sad

[@TSGC16]

Nah thats overexaggerated ​@shaheedroylance

[@therealzahyra]

Just because they earn from covering the game doesn't mean they are paid by Blizzard. They are paid by YOU. They are YOUR shills. Get your facts straight. ​@@shaheedroylance

[@nash3timemvp]

How the hell does Custa keep getting on these panels. The guy is a complete clown. I strongly recommend fast forwarding anytime he talks.

[@Croc.]

why? because you disagree with his opinions?

[@georgeelliota2aa]

News flash, your opinion isn't every1's .... shocker right?

[@WeinerTouchy]

@@Croc. Because his opinions are so surface level that anyone can think of them - yet anyone else could actually have a conversation and try to understand someone else's perspective. "Don't make the game remotely harder to master because MY friends are casual". He didn't even WANT to hear how skill ceilings don't harm casual players. A casual player isn't hitting the skill ceiling of Lucio, but they can still have fun playing Lucio. If they added more healing to his kit or something, but made it harder to achieve that max healing, that wouldn't affect the casual players. They can continue to play at their current skill level, do the same level of healing and continue having fun. He doesn't care about that conversation though, because it goes against what he thinks. He actively shuts down conversation and refuses to learn anything beyond his very basic scope around the game.

[@SengokuNoMaou]

I hate to admit that I ended up doing this

[@Autopoietico]

I said the same about Samito and other grifters.

[@adampennell704]

Custa is the definition of the shill, blizzard can do no wrong and OW is in the best state it’s ever been in.

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

Those casual players that custa keeps talking about probably wanna have an actually go at the more exotic heros in the game, but how do they get that true overwatch experience when bastion just mows them down every game or moira hunts them down on genji every game? If avrl is talking about tuning the skill curve than yea youre gonna have it so the casual player joining the game can play whatever they want because imagine how many people join, see the ninja, than get absolutely rolled over the entire game, than goes online for help and sees hes just suffering from a skill issue and leaves? Because lets be honest if someone wants to play bastion or shooty guy than they're probably gonna just play shooty guy, than move onto the next game with generic shooty guy but the genji player is the one youll find a new life long fan in. So i dont think you should have very isolating metas slap your casuals in the face because you lose out on potential players, and avrl wants to make everything as accessible as possible, so why is custa trying to argue hes on the side of accessibility when he wants to isolate half the roster from being playable and avrl wants to make the entire roster as accessible to everyone as ppssible?

[@carbondinamite2067]

You actually cooked with this. As a genji player I thank you

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

@@carbondinamite2067 yea I've seen it first hand, me and my older brother were huge battleborn fans until it shut down and my brother was always an ow hater because he blamed battleborns death on ow. But during covid I had finally convinced him to play and I seen thats spark light up in him again as he started putting ridiculous hours into the game but than 1 day I seen he wasnt playing at all, and swapped games so i asked if he wanted to play and he said he uninstalled because half the games just ended in him facing torb, brigs, and bastions which he didbt find to be very fun just getting slapped with those comps every single game so in my experience I've never seen custas scenario yet I've seen my own brother who was a massive battleborn fan have this issue and he has experience with the genre because of that but no one but the cheese hero mains wanna face that stuff every single game, it takes actual will power and part of your sanity to climb out of those ranks 😂

[@charchadonto]

Absolutely true, I have no interest in Apex, or CSGO or Valorant. Because i am a Rein main, and in OW, i get to play a big guy who smacks things with a hammer who can launch himself forward by a rocket on his back to help do so.

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

@@carbondinamite2067 honestly its probably why the community is so dam toxic. Half the community is the gamer equivalent of stunting out at 5"5 and being perpetually upset you'll never grow more and the other half are being slapped down by people not even using a fraction the effort as the genji or tracer mains are exerting and if that's not a recipe for toxicity than idk what is 😂

[@jonwicked7031]

You are so right when I saw genji and Hanzo I knew I wanted to play them and even tho I was shit at them ;and still am lol ) I stuck on the game cause I saw other heroes and I liked them too so I played them and I’m here 7 years later

[@dominus5634]

Love custa but he is acting like the casual player base are idiots that dont know anything

[@johnnymasterson7530]

We gave winston a right click. What did he lose in order to gain that? Everyone else: hmmmmmmmm good point. Me screaming: he lost a whole ass tank!!!!

[@josemendoza738]

😂 tru

[@oof3279]

yeah the winston right click argument is really stupid considering every single tank got gigabuffed to work as a solo tank, especially compared to mercy which is just broken by design

[@joshuataylor5080]

Obligatory 6v6 would fix the game comment 👍

[@joshuataylor5080]

Obligatory anti-6v6 reply. (OK, now everyone can move on to other comments)

[@PunchM3]

Let’s goooo 6v6

[@probablysteven1325]

@@joshuataylor5080obligatory negative response to obligatory anti 6v6 reply 😂

[@olegdusov4273]

No joke, 6v6 would fix counterwatch a lot, things AVRL talked about at 38:00 (mauga meta and generalist tanks) are that bad because there is only one tank with distinct vulnerabilities that are easy to exploit

[@moniker2804]

​@olegdusov4273 if 6v6 came back, I think they're more likely to add another supp or dps than tank. Why add a role nobody wants to play?

[@Summonick2]

Long time supporter of the show, listened to every episode; gotta say this time I couldn’t make it through the episode. Custa was actually just that hard to listen to. I guess the comments weren’t exaggerating.

[@bradhurtz9173]

Bring back 6v6

[@Oliver.Pfahl.]

Engagement comment More importantly SVB Appreciation comment

[@ErikBPG]

Look nothing against Custa as a person bit I don't think it's very productive to have him on the podcast

[@meduza93]

Damn, first Custa take and he is already delusional. I guess thats his new record. I wish I could enjoy this broken game the way he does.

[@Real_MisterSir]

"My characters are strong with busted abilities so I can just ignore the massive problems everyone else is dealing with and gaslight the narrative into this game being in a good state" -Custa, definitely

[@KayD__o]

Without watching this, I can say I'm not looking forward to Custa but hey at least there's no Freedo? ^^; Will likely skip the vid altogether but thought I'd drop a comment about what Alec Dawson said during Spilo's interview with him. He essentially said that support was very overtuned and has been given too many escape/sustain/get out of jail free buttons and they're looking to tune down their survivability in the future but it will take a good while and the next support hero is unfortunately going to be more of the same. I have just under 3k hours into OW from the past 5.5yrs and I only played the first two days of the current season. I've mained many heroes from all roles over my time with OW and I think I might be done. The sustain in the game is out of control. Instead of the season 9 hp/projectile/passive changes I think they should have globally nerfed healing and tuned down sustain abilities. Sustain killed OW1 and it's killing this so-called sequel as well. Also, solo-tanking is fundamentally not as interesting or as healthy for the game as duo-tanking. (Sidenote: I was playing echo one of the last times I played and copied enemy Zarya. THE ABSOLUTE BEAUTY OF BEING ZARYA WITH REIN ON MY TEAM nearly brought tears to my eyes.) Anywho, hearing Alec say the things he said about the support roster was refreshing and actually brought a sense of relief that they do understand what is going on. I'm unfortunately out of patience though. I hope things improve sooner than later but after playing nearly daily for years, I'm not logging on anymore. What happened to this game is a crying shame.

[@YoSoFunnyx3]

Custa is very out of touch with the Mercy community. Him saying he thinks Mercy players want her hero to be super easy and want her to be "better". Mercy players have been saying they want her skill ceiling to be higher. One of the biggest complaints is how every change they've done to her since her rework has made her less and less engaging and has made her skill ceiling drop. Dropping her bug SJ took away so many techs that you had to learn and practice. Even her GA and sling shot lost so many techs and became clunky. I personally just want a rework. Buffing her isn't going to change her boring pocket playstyle and make her less frustrating to play against or even as. It's boring and feels bad to play having less and less player agency with each change. Also "Mercy players like Mercy because she doesn't have to aim" is insulting tbh

[@agentwowza]

Honest question, no offense, but if they turned Mercy beam (left and right click) into Illari healing beam so you need to aim to heal/damage boost, in exchange for more mobility, would you be okay with that? Because while I think what you're saying is true (maybe only at the higher ranks) for a lot of Mercy players... a majority would just stop playing if you made beam remotely skillful. People just like easy heroes.

[@KayD__o]

​@@agentwowza that would disrupt the way her movement works too much imo. Her movement is the funnest, most interesting part of her kit or at least it used to be.

[@YoSoFunnyx3]

@@agentwowza I honestly think rez needs to be moved to valk (I personally would give her a little bit shorter cast time on it and give it 2 charges with a short CD in between, no instant rez though. Kinda reverse from her rework). This would also help appease player who want to keep the ability and make valk feel less spectator. Gives her something to do and fly into the fight. Then they could give her a CD with a skill shot that is useful mid fight. I can't you what but something. I don't really like the Illari beam idea because I think it would hurt her fluidity and likely make her more pocket (it'd be kinda annoying asf to try and heal someone while flying around). I also think if they changed the damage boost back to when it hits a target vs when fired as it would encourage beam swapping and add skill expression with beam swapping. Her pocket play style stems from a lot of changes taking away engagement. I don't really care for more mobility, I honestly would take old GA over what she currently has because it feels clunky and had to be nerfed because perma flight lol. Numbers can be tweaked but she needs SOMETHING to do in both the fight and her ult. She has nothing to do BUT pocket. sorry kinda long oop lol

[@sphoogaming1131]

Svb lost control of this one

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

55:00 Avrl I get it man, but at what point do we say hey we reworked more heroes to be like Kiri than kiri to be like the majority of the roster. Why are we having to change the majority of loved characters than tuning down the new ones.

[@DriplessShrimp]

Great debate bingo card. SVB eating, Custa riding the Blizzard pay train, KarQ having no real opinion either way and Avrl talking over someone.

[@jakeatcheson3884]

Custa "I dont want to debate samito on a debate podcast". I swear the more this guy talks the more i get the vibe he just isnt comfortable argueing his position. I get big soy energy.

[@skyler7017]

ngl, i dont know anyone who wants to debate samito..

[@theredguy92]

First words out of Custa’s mouth “i like how things are right now” and proceeds to hate on the games critics The shill is strong with this one..

[@Ruby_33]

Apparently different opinion equals shill now. Flawless logic clearly. I'm so sick of this idiotic reasoning.

[@dastokelys7374]

@@Ruby_33 apparently you’re a shill as well, and you have custas meat down your throat

[@dastokelys7374]

@@Ruby_33 so there’s something on your cheek right there here’s something to wipe it off 🧻

[@BroBruhBruv]

I don’t even know who this Custa guy is but holy shit, his takes were bad but his delivery was worse! Who gave this man a platform?

[@seraphimrosenhart173]

Tbh, Custa's whole thing about new, casual players feeling overwhelmed when coming into the game could simply be solved with a better tutorial than, "left click shoots, E is an ability," etc. Becuase that's essentially the depth of the current tutorial. Make the game complex and balance it around higher skill cielings and the high ranks, like AVRL said, and then just implement a tutorial that actually teaches new players the basic aspects of game sense (use cover, group up and don't go in alone, a basic explanation of the roles, etc - pretty much the common mistakes we see Bronze, Silver, and Gold players making often.)

[@Jay_daewi]

I love how everyone is shitting on custa (rightfully so)

[@Ruby_33]

I don't understand the issue with custa. The only reasons I have seen for hating him is because he said some stuff to samito. Sounds like people are overprotective of samito.

[@thecupofbrew7955]

​@Ruby_33 right, not his terrible takes. Or the fact he talked shit about Sam cause he knows he's saying bullshit and Sam would instantly call it out

[@dastokelys7374]

@@Ruby_33 dude how does that meat taste from Cusa?

[@dsvd4727]

@@Ruby_33 Dick riding Custa the Noodle Nibbler is so crazy

[@fullnelson4986]

​@Ruby_33 aint no way custa got glazers💀

[@dumass804]

59:04 no, it does not remove the approachability. What removes the approachability is the games open community shitting on it so much that no new players have any incentive to touch the game. Fixing the game will attract way more new players than keeping it dumbed down. And what happens when those new players start getting into the game and suddenly realise "oh, this is the ceiling of what i can do on Moira and mercy who I've been playing because they were the 'beginner friendly' heroes. Actually, they aren't very likely to even realise that organically. What's most likely to happen is frustration at the game because they can't get better even though they're doing the right things from a game sense pov because the ceiling of such characters are so limited. Casual players (I'm gold/plat so i think i can speak on it more than custard) aren't gonna be accessing that high skill ceiling anyway. They can still play their heroes mostly the same. It's only in higher ranks that the new layers of depth will be felt significantly. Also, Overwatch is very much an easy game to pick up. I'm not sure about Custards anecdotal friends, but i recently got 3 of mine into the game for the first time (season 9) because i wanted a squad to play with. They had no issues acclimatising to the game because for as much as i dislike the current state of the game, at a base level it's still very intuitive to pick up. If what Custa is saying is true, then we wouldn't have any new players at all from OW2 onwards (unless he's saying the recent most 5 heroes added was what pushed it over the edge, in which case I'm not gonna bother defending such a stupid position) In fact, a 5v5er like custard should be saying it's even easier to get into the game with 2 less players on the screen. So why is it that no one ever had an issue getting into the game in OW1? maybe because the game was actually enjoyable Also, the comparison to fartite is so dishonest. He's saying "make a no build mode equivalent" when there's literally no translation. He talks about how fun it was when everything is unbalanced, but does he really think april fools-esque modes in overwatch as the MAIN MODE would be well received? They are too different on a fundamental level to compare here When all of these points are brought up, instead of addressing them, he instead just says "2 sides of the same coin 🤓" avoiding it like a politician.

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

Theres one more factor even, what about the people on the other side, because the only good point I seen custa make was bascially that you may isolate the kid that logs on and plays bastion or moira and runs an entire bronze lobby, yea hes maybe having fun and will stick around awhile bullying other kids in bronze as bastion but now imagine how many winston, genji and tracer mains get absolutely rolled by this brain dead hero and just drop the game? Honestly I rather have the genji player over the bastion since that bastion player has much less likely chance of sticking around as bastion is pretty boring as his core, while genji is insanely fun and is one of those heros that you play and instantly get hooked. So inna way if both bastion and genji are more accessible instead of just bastion being overly accessible, you in theory should pull in more over all as most those bastion players will still stick around if they trully enjoy bastion and his new much more skillful kit, you lose the kid that was probably just hopping over from fortnite for an ego boost on bastion, and you gain way more genji mains.

[@wheelsontheruss]

I think that Custa being a vocal part of the community is going to continue to kill this game. he doesnt know what hes talking about and hates original overwatch players. yet here he is trying to act like he knows whats fun in the game??!?? like what dude? this whole thing is absurd if you value his input over the active community players

[@0NEH1TMAN]

7/10 cast here with Karq, Emiliath, Avril and Freedo Jr.

[@CuimeraEmariti]

The devs should switch life grip and petal around, with life grid being thrown and being a skill shot and petal just sprouting beneath the intended target on a press of a button. The skill, which doesn't really save the player (aka petal) should be easier to use. Also making that lifeweaver cannot target himself with petal would make him easier to kill when dived, which means it can get multiple charges or lower cooldown. Life grip could also get lower cooldown if it is harder to execute.

[@CuimeraEmariti]

I have no idea how something like this isn't brought up. Also the fact that Lifeweaver is hard to kill is one of the things which makes him boring. Imagine if he had to think where to play, since he couldn't save himself

[@executortassadar287]

Not gonna lie the hide and seel playstyle of lifeweaver using petal on themselves is dumb but I actually really like this idea

[@zanedurante3709]

I think lifeweaver won’t really have any counter play to dive in that case. Maybe if you made his dash farther or something else to compensate. Or you can give him A LOT more damage to let him duel similarly to the other supports.

[@Summonick2]

@@CuimeraEmaritiit’s not brought up because after thinking about it for 30 seconds you realize it’s a very foolish idea

[@executortassadar287]

@zanedurante3709 you are missing the point. Lw should have an area where he is weak.that is what counter play is. If dive beats him that's great because it means he has an area that needs to be covered by other heros. He shouldn't be good at all comp types.

[@dannyhernandez112]

Will never stop saying that Custa has the worst takes I hear in OW. Guy sounds like he’s been trained by the devs pr team. I like Avrl idea. Sure Winston’s right click doesn’t feel like it does much but it’s enough for him to feel like a better designed hero overall almost like he should’ve always had that ability from the start. I think doing that for some of the heroes that feel left behind would be good for the game.

[@Summonick2]

The dev shill narrative is so stupid. If you listen to what the devs say in interviews, they basically are looking at the game more like Avrl. Custa is just kinda stupid and doesn’t like changes.

[@djwolfdragon3771]

SVB should’ve brought ML7 over Custa or KarQ

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

They gave the Winston right click for taking away another tank….you can’t use tanks as an example because they lost an entire person in their role. They gave Winston a bit of poke to help him finish his dive targets because he lost his dive partner.

[@dongdoodler]

The right click is not great most of the time its trash because you try to poke someone and you do like 20 damage and you take like 200 with the dps passive now on you. Its not even that good for burst damage when you land on someone, it should take a lot longer to charge/be a cd and do like 40 damage so its a burst for whenever you land on someone.

[@stefanmayer9047]

You act like right click wouldn't have been okay in 6v6 as well

[@brycenb2994]

@@thesquirtlesquad8446 the REASON why they gave Winston a right click doesn’t de value his comparison. Literally nothing about his argument of giving characters more utility and options for combat change when you factor in Winston got a right click bc he lost a second tank. Kinda a mute point

[@ROBAKABIGPAPA]

Someone remind Custa that a debate requires attentiveness. Not just machine gun yapping

[@charlestothe]

Bro AVRL literally talked 60% of the episode.

[@ROBAKABIGPAPA]

@@charlestothe there's talking and there's yapping

[@teejay1646]

@@ROBAKABIGPAPA you need to yap quickly to get any time in while AVRL uses up all the oxygen in a room

[@jackattackstopmotion3244]

Please stop inviting custa, last episode he was on I couldnt finish and this one I can't either

[@Amy_399]

Didnt know SVB invited Blizzard employees to the podcast

[@absolute-xero7502]

Scrolled straight to the comment section to watch custa get roasted. Thank you for the funny comments fellas.

[@Iron-Blurr]

Custa talking about the games approachability being diminished because of more complexity??? Look at fortnight do you think it would be as successful if it was less complex and got watered down to rock paper scissors??

[@Oliver.Pfahl.]

@@Iron-Blurr my brother in christ, fortnite got litteraly watered down because sweats could build perfect 90s. Now there is no build so yeah that game got more accessible and it saved the game. Tank is the hardest role to learn in Overwatch, almost like there are parallels.... Nahh let's go back to 6v6 and till then call the dev team incompetent. That's how you show you're a real gamerTM.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

@@Oliver.Pfahl.I could be high as fuck for saying this but if a role is too hard for someone to play maybe we should tell them to not play said role rather than make it more accessible. Same applies for individual heros

[@Iron-Blurr]

@@Oliver.Pfahl. First of all Tank is absolutely not the hardest role to learn. I say that as a tank main. Maybe ball or doom can be annoying to learn I guess. DPS is way harder to learn to play well since there are such diverse heroes in that role. The counter watch has to stop. There's no skill involved in anti nading a hog. There's no skill involved in swapping to reaper bastion for monkey. If people Wana play rock paper scissors go for it. But that game gets old fast and people with a brain would rather play chess which is why that game has stood the test of time. Overwatch at it's core is not a simple game. Way too many heroes, abilities, and game modes.

[@aerostrafe1075]

@@Oliver.Pfahl. Wait. Didnt fortnite add a no build mode vs just takign away building completely?

[@teejay1646]

@@Iron-Blurr most people dropped fortnite *specifically* because the building was overwhelming and walled them out of playing the game Y'all forget that shi was unironically dying before they added no build

[@Bossking1]

Honestly, as long as widow can still 1 shot me across the map, I still want Res.

[@SpartanKyuubi]

What about when the widow is the server admin and she gets the Rez?

[@Bossking1]

@@SpartanKyuubi if both sides are equals and it’s widow vs widow with mercy’s on each side then it sounds like the server admit widow is just better. Now if you want to run full dive then you can ensure that mercy at least has to take a risk to go for the res

[@SpartanKyuubi]

@@Bossking1 In a full dive comp, the Mercy Widow is unusable as long as the widow is not cheating. The rez will almost always turn into a lost fight since there is 2 players basically on down time during that moment.

[@AlexTheHorrid]

The custa shill allegation feel so true in this podcast lol. I swear this dude has the worst takes and just wants to lower the skill ceiling of the game lmao. Please don’t ever have him on a podcast again.

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

What I don’t get is that we all agree some characters don’t really have a place in high elo because they don’t offer enough, but how come we never say the reverse. Why does EVERY character have to be available in bronze. There are plenty of entry level heroes and in every game there are plenty of heroes that are just harder mechanically. If someone lower rank really wants to learn a harder character, then they need to practice them. Some characters are going to require effort to learn them.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

Sombra is not hero that should be this common in low ranks and receive so much value

[@erikstark16]

Why does Overwatch have to put everything in extremes? Immortality, anti-nade, god mode in a bottle. Why can't it just be damage reduction, healing reduction and cleanse like every other game?

[@jimmyjab8744]

immortality and anti are on quite different levels of powerful to be fair, and overwatch isn't like other games, every hero generally has very few overlapping abilites to make each hero stand out unlike a game like valorant with a billion smoke agents from what i can tell. Very very different games which is a good thing

[@ranjnijan3446]

Yall killing me with these comments. 😂

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

I don’t get it. Blizzard nuked a lot of hero playstyles why does custa care now

[@beermarket9971]

I'm sorry but Custa is annoying he always has blinders on, mocks any opposite take and just sounds pretentious. He comes as insincere... this is how he comes/sounds might not be what he is/thinks but that's the vibe he creates.

[@teejay1646]

@@beermarket9971 you're literally describing AVRL here

[@ncascini01]

You can change suzu to a cleanse and heal ability and not an immortality and then you change buff other parts of her kit.

[@x100bullets]

After listening to part of this, Custa isn’t designing to maximize the gameplay, he’s designing to maximize casual engagement and monetization, which is a backwards way to design a fun game

[@MerryOtaku]

I want support nerfs that change what heroes are meta. Kiriko and Lucio are by far the most pro-locked heroes. If Kiriko was a character in league of legends, she'd get gutted the second she got into that state.

[@JPeezy789]

Don't dumb down overwatch to make it more approachable. Make a "no build" mode in overwatch. Thats like what Open Queue is. People can jump in and mess around. Make more casual modes. But make overwatch a competitive esport that people want to grind to improve to become a better player. Ruining the competitive aspect in favor of bringing in more casuals is not the right move, because long term players will stop playing and supporting the game.

[@nom3rcy127]

Agree. But actually we already have so many casual modes: mh, oq, arcades, archives. Even QP though devs somehow made it unfun by introducing bans in qp...

[@neodaltiair8624]

AoE sustain took away mercy’s niche and most beneficial play style that wasn’t just pocketing someone

[@1oviedo632]

the left side of the screen is yapping way too much this episode, stop interrupting emiliath too omg

[@ThatGuy-em2yl]

Winston was given his sniper as a compensation buff for his lost second tank. Adding to a character's kit is inherently a buff, so while the idea is nice it leads to a strength issue and if you're electing to nerf the other parts of their kit that changes the play style, because you can no long play the way you did before

[@Real_MisterSir]

Yea and it also adds to the requirement of the role. The more power you have at your personal disposal, the more responsibility you also get to make good use of it -because if you don't, then the other busted character player on the enemy team will do it against you. Piling more responsibility (through power) onto a role with a single player in it, doesn't make their life easier. It doesn't give them more options. It doesn't make their experience more enjoyable. It just means that if they don't live up to the heightened responsibility, they'll get thrown to the wolves with much smaller room for mistake than the other roles. Spreading responsibility on two tanks that are individually less capable, but have more options and room to make plays by working together than a single tank would, is the best solution we currently know of, and also happen to have experience with. 5v5 is a mess and will continue to be so for years to come. 6v6 isn't perfect, but it's the only alternative we have right now that actually presents a solution to the root problem, rather than just trying to endlessly address symptoms in 5v5.

[@johnnymasterson7530]

Oh crap i posted this same comment before realizing someone had already done it.

[@bowchikahonkhonk7704]

Its funny when people say Swift step would kill Kiriko because it was a problem when sombra could translocate to who knows where but it isnt a problem when Kiriko does it. Her Swift Step NEEDS LOS and she will be perfectly fine. Increase the range by 5-10 meters or reduce the cool down. You can track where she went just like the revised sombra.

[@AnimeOtaku56.]

Right? I couldn’t remember a character like Kiri but Sombra is the perfect example. Mercy needs los and we’re talking a teleport lol.

[@Real_MisterSir]

You don't even have to change it. Literally just require an LOS check and that's all it would need. It would still be immensely strong and the only reason people would cry about it is because they've been convinced that having absolutely busted abilities on their character since launch was ever okay. Suzu and Swift Step both need reworks asap. They've needed this since she launched.

[@darkshaman98]

Like sombra kiriko has limited range and you don't know what you're TPing into, in lower ranks you could TP to your tank who's decided to 1v5 so no it isn't broken

[@MutatedAmerican]

Counterpoint, keep Swift Step the same when teammates are in LOS. If no one is in LOS, she can teleport, but its range is 25%. Doesnt get rid of her identity, but also lowers her power overall when trying to do solo plays

[@jordanmaiden0073]

As a Kiriko main, I agree

[@gnomad3143]

I understand the hate for custas takes now lol

[@hiimz]

2:02:31 - Custa reaches up and touches Avrl's nose

[@PunchM3]

Ima get to the problem with the game: 1: to many easy access abilities the give value for zero input 2: to much burst healing, we wouldn’t have the dps passive is supports weren’t so broken currently 3: counterswaping literally happens in every match now and it’s so unfun for players to get hard countered when wanting to play a character they enjoy 4: the same few characters have been meta in the dps and support roles now since the launch of the game (Lucio is fine due to requiring a lot of mechanical skill and game knowledge) 4: every single character has been dumbed down so much to the point 95% of the cast is just the same character just with different cosmetics and abilities and even then half the abilities are the same 5: the tanks are tanky as all hell and are difficult to punish unless you run like 5 different forms of cc or discord orb 6: stop promoting low skill high reward characters, and promote high skill high reward characters instead, makes the game feel like you earned something when you get a pick with the high skill high rewards heroes 7: the format is the main cause of 95% of the issues, the game could be a lot better balanced if it was 6v6 and not have to deal as much with the counter watch aspect of the game.

[@Azarthes]

Avrl was a very welcome addition to this cast! He really spiced up the show with divisive takes that I personally found myself agreeing with. I wish Karq was a little more opinionated, though.

[@Kanggaxx]

AVRL is a great debater, even if you disagree with him you kind of have to admit that.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

@@KanggaxxI’ve noticed people with the best takes are also good at debating not only their side but both sides of arguments

[@ketsuekipen]

I heavily disagree with Avril, especially him wanting to make some part of Mercy’s kit worse in favor of making her more dps forward. I don’t like Custa, but he’s right, as a hardcore Mercy main, most Mercy players don’t play her to do dmg.

[@Summonick2]

@@ketsuekipenthe fact that you wrote this means that you struggle to listen to people in life, and likely make judgements too quickly when people start talking.

[@doublechindoge7]

Can I be honest? I feel like the conversation on Kiriko ALWAYS goes in the wrong direction chasing kind of meaningless vague ideas like that her kit is "bloated" which then lead into discussions about whether well rounded heroes are bad for the game actually. I feel like I'm crazy since no-one talks about this, but I'm yet to see anything to refute this idea so idk here I go... I think the idea that Kiri is just this super high skill character that noobs can't use properly, and that they get huge value 'cause they're just SOOOO GOOD at the game is giga cope. This point isn't as some fuck you to kiri players, this is just my genuine view from my 50 hours or so on the character (play everyone, but my 3 most played are Ana, Ball, and Brig). Ofudas autoaim, Suzus splash and the timing is not at all hard, tp is pressing a button, Kitsune is press button to win teamfight, and wallclimb is holding space. The only thing in her entire kit that is difficult is landing Kunais, but then so is landing headshots with any projectile (not to mention Kunai's hitbox is huge now). People often say that she MUST be high skill because she does so poorly in metal ranks, while ignoring that Kiri's winrate has consistently been lacklustre even in Grandmaster. The fallback then is to point out that Kiri is super consistently meta in coordinated OWCS & OWL games, but I think THAT right there is the distinction everyone is missing. Coordinated. I think Kiri is stupid busted when you're in a vc with a tracer you can always tp to on the enemy backline, with a backline of your own you can count on to maintain tp range. On Ladder though? I think Kiriko is to Tanks what Mercy is to DPS, only instead of Damage Boost, she has Suzu. I think Kiri consistently has an underwhelming win rate despite a reputation as the demon of the game, because outside of coordinated play, she mostly only wins if she has a good Tank who can get away with some bs thanks to suzu. I think before there used to be a little wiggle room to just be stupid good at flank kiri, but ever since S9 that window closed. Besides, what makes Kiri broken right now is that Kitsune is the best ult in the game, and Suzu is the best cooldown in the game (a 15s cooldown that negates entire ultimates and teamkills on a semi-regular basis with nothing more than a little basic timing). That may make it sound like I'm saying Kiri's stupid broken, not overrated - but then you remember that the 2 stupidly broken things she has are her longest cd and her ult. What about during the enormous downtime where you don't have those things? You're very underwhelming in damage, mobility and healing without your cds, even by the standards of most supports in the game. So if you're playing a character that has brief moments of being so stupidly unfairly broken it's like they opened the console and typed sv_cheats, but 90% of the time you're basically a fly on the wall - what's your win condition? Healbot Tank to farm Kitsune and hope your team makes good use of it, and/or get some nasty suzus on your Tank so they can just trample the other Tank who doesn't have a support with access to the cheats menu. You might notice that both of these win cons are contingent on your teammates doing something with the power you give them... _almost a little bit like mercy..._ So yeah, I completely reject the idea that Kiri is a problem bc she's just too big brain for the skrubs to understand. I think it's really simple. Suzu and Kitsune Rush have become this entire character, and you need teammates that can use that power to get value from it. If you have them though, congratulations! You have now activated god mode. No Weapon, Cooldown, or Ultimate in the game can stop a Tank from running you over if they get Suzu and you don't.

[@thedofflin]

Great take. Especially the fact that her survivability isn't dependent on her hitting any of her kunais, but just spamming her teleport. They originally advertised her as this skillful, DPS-oriented support like Zen but she's almost the complete opposite of that.

[@whitegrill8809]

honestly amazing take, kiri isnt crazy, shes just too easy and good. her survivability isnt hard at all to use. i think if they just made her tp LOS, it would be much better. also either take away the invulnerability from suzu or the spot heal. i think honestly she'd still be good.

[@doublechindoge7]

@@thedofflin Yeah I kinda had the whole fantasy of Kiri as that high-skill dps support broken as I played her. Initially I was scared to touch her bc I was terrible with Kunais... Then I realised even though I can't land a shot to save my life at times, I was still winning? Sometimes I'd just wallclimb up to someone and even if I couldn't actually hit a shot, I'd just... scare them off high ground for free? Then I realised honestly, the only reason I was doing super well as Kiri was because Kunais distract a lot of Kiris and make them miss opportunities for huge game-winning suzus. and once you remove kunais from the equation it's like... wow this character's kinda literally just spectator mode huh? I mean, I also did get better with Kunais over time, but still I'd say my Kunais are probably below average. It just doesn't matter because everything flashy and cool Kiri can do is usually relatively inconsequential in solo queue, whereas the basics like using wallclimb just to escape without needing to use a cd, or just suzuing your tank is kinda huge.

[@doublechindoge7]

@@whitegrill8809 Well, I made a Kiriko Rant + Rework video a few months ago of my own, and I considered LoS tp. I think it'd be an improvement, but would probably make Kiri too weak and super unfun. Problem is though, the character's design is so fundamentally fucked from step 1 that you have to make some pretty drastic changes to address that. I tried to keep my rework idea as "within scope" as possible, but also Kiri's design being so backwards forced it to still be a little ambitious. There were a lot more little things, but the broad strokes of the rework were this: - Replace Wallclimb with Walljump so Kiri actually has mobility and skill expressive movement (like Lucio Wallride, but can't hold on wall. Walljumping is also faster than walking) - Give tp a larger range but a 1.5s cast time. This can also be cancelled mid-cast for bamboozles, though it still uses half the cd when cancelled. (while casting you can still move and walljump, but can't use other abilities or throw anything). - Remove splash from Suzu - it only affects 1 target and it has to be a direct hit, which also means you can't just throw it at the floor anymore and can't suzu yourself unless you threw it up or something. (potentially add a windup mechanic where you can throw the suzu with more or less force based on how long you hold the button?) That's the least uh... crazy rework I could think of that I feel would substantially address Kiri's problems. Anyway, either way, I appreciate the kind words/sanity check. 😅

[@whitegrill8809]

@@doublechindoge7 but to overwatch shes fine :D so thers nothing to change in blizzard's eyes

[@Hous3ofpros]

any time a kiri is in my game… im complaining lol

[@hanzgruber9625]

Im the same with mercy

[@zLimiTzTrusty]

Keep this guy on so we all can disagree with him and make fun of him.

[@agentwowza]

I like how everyone instantly knows who you're talking about without you even saying it lol. Now I'm just waiting for someone to defend him for a true self-report moment.

[@defaultdan7923]

@@agentwowza i'm not at all defending him, but this is a horrible attitude to have, especially when it comes to a podcast that is primarily about different viewpoints and having a debate

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

@@defaultdan7923There’s a difference between different viewpoints and being a waste of space 😂

[@defaultdan7923]

@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 yes, and we should agree that having a different viewpoint on a video game doesn't constitute being a waste of space

[@hanzgruber9625]

@@defaultdan7923 Terrible takes regardless. The dudes a blizzard shill and threw samito under the bus with his grifter statement.

[@Kivivideos]

Enjoyed a lot this set of guests!!

[@ncascini01]

I don't understand why Custa is talking about casuals not having fun while running around like a headless chicken. That's all casuals do in any game. That's what I did when I bought OW1 in season 4 and it's was a blast because I played against other casuals. I played junkrat back when junkrat wasn't buffed. He had 1 mine, the projectiles size of his nade was smaller, and the nades didn't bounce around as long. He was fun as hell back then and didn't need all these buffs the devs stacked on him. I remeber not knowing what was going and trying to learn the game. It was a circus, but it was amazing.

[@Coachteach]

Exactly, being a headless chicken is the most fun you can have in the game. This isnt a real moba, each individual kit is simple, so you can have tons of fu n from your pov without knowing you're throwing

[@ncascini01]

I know a lot of people who bought the mercy breast cancer awareness skins that are not mercy mains. I bought one and I barely play the character. They're cute skins, it's a good cause, and it feels kinda festive. Yes, her playerbase is huge, but maybe 1/4 of those purchases are by people who don't play the character.

[@itzpurple_queen9711]

Can’t watch because Custa is so obnoxious! 💀

[@sheikad0w]

i don’t understand where this ‘casual players dont care about balance’ idea comes from. i play casually and i care about balance. if bastion or mauga are strong in a patch, i hop on and have no fun. i understand balancing for the top end, and i think they should, but to say that casuals dont care it stupid

[@AlexTheHorrid]

Custa looking visibly upset almost the entire debate lol. Why do you all think that?

[@AerynSaerus]

The whole segment where everyone was lowkey shook about what AVRL was suggesting for homogenizing the cast of heroes (around the 50:00 mark), the only thing I could think of was Spilo going, "Everyone is having an extreme knee-jerk reaction to what he's saying and thinking something absolutely hyperbolic".

[@AerynSaerus]

It also needs to be said: The way you help new players with the complexity of the game -- especially casual players -- is by making accessible knowledge based tools and content in-game that helps them; not just a tutorial either. For too long, OW has had a "knowledge issue" where newer players are clueless on what is going on let alone; how to efficiently play the game and win matches -- and that is by large part; because of a lack of any such tools to help do this. Whether it be a Hero Gallery that showcases detailed information and stat numbers on Heroes and their abilities or trying to explain simple, key concepts and features such as positioning / LoS in a tutorial; none of that exists inside the game itself and casuals will never find it. As such, casuals will always struggle with understanding what's going on in a game for quite a long time until they get familiar with it.

[@libcabe]

Na where aspen at

[@MohanadAlhusseini]

Shillwatch

[@nemil2898]

The ‘meh’ meta-balanced but not really that interesting or fun. And here we are

[@wr2299]

STOP talking about there not being a perfect harmony between roles. Everyone shares that sentiment. Waste of time I cant even finish this podcast. KarQ and Custa are are in a 1% player base position with takes that mean absolutely nothing. Balance is in the state it usually is and that's not the problem. The problem is that with the game right now even in a relatively balanced state MANY heroes fail to feel great to play because they have very little meaning. The skill ceiling is lowered TOO FAR. As a result 6v6 is becoming front and center as a better offering. It was more complex, more dynamic, more to do with your team, and you could play for hours honing characters with higher skill ceilings. The balance problems back then would not be the same problems now.

[@UngoKast]

The Great AVRL and Custa Debate

[@lexington.]

Avrl's take is just to remove the hero shooter out of the hero shooter game. It may be balanced on a spreadsheet but it would be a boring game to play.

[@WeinerTouchy]

It's Blizzards own fault. xDefiant is also a "hero" shooter, but there are no classes for each hero to fall into. If you are going to start introducing roles on top of heroes, those heroes need to fall into a specific role. Those roles define those heroes. A tank should have X movespeed, Y Armor, Z base damage, etc, etc. You can then build hero's kits from that point onward, but at a BASE level of a role defined game those roles NEED a certain "This is the baseline of what that hero can do". It's not a hard concept to really understand.

[@Stupid-yn8tl]

I don't think that's what he saying. I think Avrl's thought process is more on the line of "I'd rather have kits like Ashe, Pharah, Junkerqueen, Kiri rather than Widow, Junkrat, Mauga, Moira." Well-rounded kits with minor strengths and no glaring weaknesses lead to more skillful and fun play instead of our current rock-paper-scissors design philosophy.

[@lexington.]

​@@Stupid-yn8tlI disagree; to me, that sounds boring. Ana, for example, is the best designed support according to Avrl; she has a glaring weakness: her lack of mobility. That makes her fun to play as and against because it defines how she engages and how enemies can combat her. A hero with no glaring weakness is how you get Kiriko or pre-nerf Sojourn. They are bad for the game because they cannot be combated because they lack an obvious weakness.

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

@@Stupid-yn8tlSee, Overwatch is such a unique game that I don’t even know what the fuck that comparison of characters mean. What the hell do those characters have to do with each other when it comes to your point? They’re all unique characters.

[@00Fiddlesticks00]

​@@lexington. wouldn't that mean you could play who you want? i like playing as ball but there are so many hard counters that i am basically forced to play something i dont want to.

[@shaheedroylance]

IM SO SICK OF ARCADE BEING TALKED ABOUT!!!! The fact i have to wait 30 minutes AT LEAST for a game, doesn't justify the other shit game modes. Enough of that ye

[@Coachteach]

Yes its only the event game that is alive when its on. I never go to arcade otherwise

[@shaheedroylance]

​@@Coachteacheven then it only lasts maybe a week or two at most, before arcade lobby's are dead again. Sucks..

[@skyler7017]

nobody plays arcade tho, thats not really a blizzard problem

[@jimmyjab8744]

@@skyler7017 wouln't it get way more play time if there was half or less the amount of game modes at any given time in the arcade and they just got cycled thru? I'm surprised that hasn't been done yet personally. I miss total mayhem i've tried to queue for it and failed the past 3 or more times with waiting in queue for over an hour in at least two of them which aint that surprising ig but still

[@skyler7017]

@@jimmyjab8744 yes, less gamemodes would mean more players in each game type and that would lower q times but ow players are never content so they will be mad that there are less options even though that means they would be able to even play the game mode.

[@Samuraithekid]

Omg yes I had a game on zarya yesterday and I was playing so well I got like 5 gravs in a round and they were full team gravs that just get negated by a lw pedal... That is just bullshit.

[@TigerBlood-m4b]

And this is the issue avrl wants to solve because it sucks how bad zarya is, but on the flip side, have you seen how disgusting zarya is in low ranks? My buddy showed me a clip asking how to deal with zarya and I watched this zarya eat a zen left click and run his entire team down on repeat without any effort. That's not healthy for either party and that's what avrl wants to stop, his idea is to make zarya able to outplay the weavers and other stuff that just have more options and buttons than you while removing the frustrations players without trigger discipline feels anytime they cause their entire teams death with one miss click.

[@IHJello]

This comment section is about to cook itself in irony. I agree Em and KarQ are fantastic guests. I've advocated for them every since I've been a patron. But to write off a particular guest such as Custa if they have zero value is wild. It's ironic bc you want to treat guests you don't like the way you felt they behaved on the show by not letting them speak. I would like to advocate SVB with forcing guests into a vote instead, or maybe a community poll during the stream. Conversation is necessary, but in the end a solution isn't. This podcast is great bc it invokes ideas not solutions. Albeit I do believe solutions implemented in OW2 have come from this podcast, but its wasnt the intent. So to skip silly debates like homogeny vs identity or 5v5 vs 6v6 just do a vote and keep it short.

[@ScoutRaySOS]

Svb ima be real don’t let custa on this again bruh 😂

[@genozide1996]

Immo is an issue because it’s a cool-down ability that can counter an ult. I don’t why no one said it, but immo abilities are fine, BUT they have to be ults also, as no one minds if a support builds and holds an ult to counter another ult, that’s part of the game, but playing for 5 mins to build this supposed best ability, this fight winner move, that gets countered by an ability that can be used every 20 secs doesn’t feel good. No one cared when Zen ult’ed and countered a grav in OW1 but countering a grav dragon with lamp, which also doesn’t take dmg from dragon, feels stupid.

[@lruddy8820]

Playing tank in ow1 went one of two ways and both were awesomr, either you were the bash brothers from mighty ducks or the gallagher brothers from oasis where tanking in ow2 feels like your scott pilgram

[@kevinkalani]

I've said this before and I will say it again, I would be happy if they removed the intangibility of suzu so that Doom doesn't just blow through a target and punch himself into a bad position. Much like Zarya bubble, it cleanses, it makes you invulnerable to damage, but you can still punch and pin someone with bubble.