Are the Dentons BETTER than CHEAPER Wharfedales?!

[@thomasward00]

I love my Denton 80's, they sound great to me..... Nice and warm

[@andtothewestamerica]

Same. Other speakers are more versatile but I find myself connecting emotionally to the midrange of my Denton's than any other speaker I've owned. The HD650 of speakers.

[@phillamoore157]

Amen….I could care less (at this price range) about the little things he doesn’t like. And, “3D separation” (IMO) is 100% pointless if the overall sound isn’t pleasing. I could care less about “pointing out where a saxophone is in the landscape”. These days, I don’t listen to music “critically”, I listen to it for enjoyment, which of course is obviously objective. I need it to be warm, relaxed and bit of a “v” scoop, enough to not sound boxy, nasally, or fatiguing after 20min. He seems like a really good guy, but I think I would rather have seen him just do a sound comparison, than what’s on paper. That not only tells us next to nothing, but doesn’t take the room into consideration. But, I digress…. Right now the 12.2’s and the 80th Anniversary are the same price. But, there’s nowhere to compare them. On Crutchfield in the states the Diamonds sound really nice. But, it was my understanding the Denton’s are a step up. And, I own a pair of Linton Heritage that I absolutely love. It’s thought to find some info on these, unfortunately.

[@frederf69]

the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 is the best 99£/120$ i ever spent. used with all kinds of amps; 50 - 200w, been used plenty & survived 2-3 years stored on a disused boat. using em right now as desktops ✌😎👍

[@TheMildperil]

I have had both the Diamond 9.1 and the Denton 80th pass through my hands and, as standard, I much preferred the Denton. I can quite believe the 9.1 has better bones and mainly let down by cheap crossover components, particularly electrolytic caps.

[@killercarpcatcher]

I swapped out my Diamond 121's for a pair of Diamond 9.1s and it was an immediate improvement. Clarity in the vocals was the greatest improvement.

[@audiononsense1611]

In my over 30 years in this business I can tell you the most important thing I've learned and that is; most folks have been listening to bad audio for so long when they hear something that is an accurate reproduction in a treated room they either can't accept the fact that it sounds better or, and this is a real chuckle, they want more low end to the point of distortion...

[@dariuszsalamon9441]

because they may not like it many speakers are designed and tested in real rooms

[@audiononsense1611]

@@dariuszsalamon9441 True however, room issues will compound affects of even a great speaker.

[@dariuszsalamon9441]

@@audiononsense1611 my room is almost perfect lol and also found sweet spot for my maggies and getting well extended bass without subs lot of people are truing to implement 2 big subs in the system with maggies but first they woild have to fix the problem someplace else like speaker placement and amp which would hold their maggies by their balls

[@audiononsense1611]

@@jim9930 I'll disagree to a point ... I can play a $10.00 guitar and although it may sound awful at lest I know that it will have an attack, harmonic, and decay (this is enough accuracy for me). I also agree with Dr. Toole as I too have found that both Dealers and Manufacturers are not very good at knowing what makes a good speaker or has proper reproduction qualities.

[@MechAdv]

Usually these are people that haven’t spent a lot of time around musicians or real instruments. Never felt what a kick drum feels like the room, or a bass guitar sounds like on a clean amplifier. When I’m listening to commercially produced music like hip hop, or pop-rock, I too prefer a V-shaped speaker tuning. But if I’m listening to an acoustic concert or an orchestral arrangement, then I want the frequency response flat, neutral, and accurate. My Concert 11s are mindblowingly airy and articulate for the latter, but make the former sound compressed and lifeless without EQ. YMMV.

[@noisyspace]

So funny these technical reviews. It's a fairly budget speaker and as such is made with cost in mind. If it was $2k this level of critique would be interesting.

[@johnhancock6951]

Thanks Danny, you've swayed me. I've a pair of these Denton 80ths on my near-field work setup, backed by a Peachtree Nova 150. I've always liked them OKAY, but they're missing clarity and refinement, especially compared against some of my other Wharfedale speakers in my home. The Dentons are fun to listen to, but I get fatigued with them pretty quickly, which makes it difficult to relax and just enjoy the music. I have a pair of Wharfedale Reva 2s on another setup with an IotaVX SA3 amp, and they're quite astonishing. I've considered swapping speakers around, but now it looks like I won't have to. I'll be ordering the kit shortly.

[@5675492]

I think the Dentons were designed with a certain old school sound quality in mind and expecting refinement and an audiophile experience probably misses the point of these speakers lol . Have you upgraded your Denton's yet with the GR kit ? Keep us posted please !

[@Three-Chord-Trick]

I enjoy these presentations. He doesn't seem to have a good word for ANYTHING. But not in a bad way. In a "tough love". He finds fault with everything. He's so down, but in an amusing way. He's what we call over here (UK) A Misery Guts. 👍

[@dannyrichie9743]

Actually I have praised a lot of what has come through here and many of our videos show it.

[@gavinralph2910]

Danny, keep in mind this is Wharfedales heritage range, they are deliberately voiced 'warm' as a nod to the old school sound of the early 70's. So its going to look really odd on your graphs. Its about the sound...not the science for the heritage range. Also they are a grill on design.

[@veroman007]

i dont buy that. prove me wrong.

[@pauldavies6037]

This IS true just the same sound as the old ones

[@gavinralph2910]

@@veroman007 If you want the up to date Wharfedale sound, buy the EVO 4.2. Always surprised how many miss the point of the Heritage range. Its about the heritage sound of the 70's, warm, colored and smooth. You wont get that by bringing up the tweeter response. Its one thing looking great on paper, its another sitting back an enjoying the music.

[@dannyrichie9743]

There is nothing wrong with a warmer tilted voicing. However, the woofers response on this model is a mess.

[@gavinralph2910]

@@mikeschaper5039 yes of course it's a marketing trend, in the same way vw beetle new model and Fiat 500 new model. In general speakers back in the 70s were pretty terrible (on paper) but sounded OK, big drivers big box's but definitely not accurate. That said highly detailed accurate speakers dont always sound right. Let's face it, these big multimillion speaker manufactures use 95 percent computer design with just a handful of experts for listening for final crossover tweaking. The best speaker in the world can sound dreadful in the wrong room, it's all subjective to personal taste and what your ears like/dislike. That's why after thousands of speaker designs, the world is still waiting for the perfect design... Will be endless wait 😂 A good pair of headphones will blow any speakers away..... That's the science working.

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

I have to give it to you when you do something well too. Aced it correcting the horrible response. Great job, you now made it enjoyable to listen to because I hated it when I listened to the 85ths and especially the 80ths. Very well done.

[@pedrodepacas4335]

Love to see a jbl 305 and 705 powered monitor sweep. Also an old jbl century compared to a new version.

[@martinenstrom8206]

”What where you thinking?” Agree. It’s just puzzling. And it’s often many parts going into the filter too. Still peaks and drivers out of phase…

[@sveneisenhauer1]

Danny, amazing transformation, especially considering only $315 for this upgrade. I am sure many owners of these speakers will welcome this fix. I almost want to buy a set of them and your upgrade kit, just ‘for fun’ to hear the before/after.

[@wim1983]

Been listening to Wharfedale speakers for years, prefer the Denton 80 (most probably best bookshelf for the sound & price) over any Diamond series, strange that you said it's bad in those figures, perhaps you're right on the better components part, but soundwise it's much more forgiving compare to whole lot of speakers, sure you need to match with more powerful amp.

[@EsotericArctos]

If I recall, these were designed as a Grill On speaker. The grill is designed to be part of the audio design. Grill On was designed to like the old style speakers, more part of the furniture than showing off the drivers.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We measured them both ways.

[@seanb3303]

Great educational video. These companies are getting free consulting on their products. Another reviewer mentioned that Roy Delgado is aware of your videos.

[@michaelgochez7768]

Although I'm sure the companies hate that Danny is exposing where they're saving money and going with cheap parts, I'm positive these companies are well aware of what they are designing. They have test labs, equipment and engineers. It's all about money and how much they feel they can get away with and still make it sound good. We, in the hifi world are looking deeper into sound and frequency response but most people just want something that can play loud and give them some bass and buy the products and love them so it keeps them putting out products like that.

[@darrylbrueckner2812]

I have the Dentons run through an Emotiva A100 & Schiit Saga as a nearfield, second system. Never pushed past 75db. I absolutely love them. Strong bass and warm, forgiving presentation. Curious if I'd still emotionally connect with them post-upgrades? Maybe I'll find out someday when the inevitable upgrade bug bites me 🤪 Side note - the real walnut veneers are outstanding for this price category.

[@dannyrichie9743]

It is just a lot more accurate and balanced after the upgrade. Plus the parts quality upgrade will improve clarity from top to bottom.

[@CowboyBill521]

I would like to see some speakers that Danny likes. Some without “cheesy parts”

[@RennieAsh]

Looks like it had a Denton the frequency response

[@Oggycrew]

Firstly I love the videos Danny. Keep up the good work. I agree strongly with you on many topics and types of speaker. I can’t help feeling that you should be using an anechoic chamber instead of a stand in the workshop and make use of blind listening tests. On the Denton, I have a pair…as well as far too many other speakers. They are great and have a certain “British” warm sound. I am pretty sure that’s the way that they are engineered and voiced …on purpose. So on this one we will have to agree to disagree. Like others here on the comments, your fix would be like removing the sound from a Porsche engine or burnt bits from a BBQ…..they’re supposed to be there and I for one like the way that they voiced and work.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We have had a 23 foot long anechoic chamber. Using a gated time window I get the exact same measurements as I used to get in my chamber. A lot of people really liked the Denton's but they did leave a lot on the table and a lot of areas for improvement. For the people that are interested in taking them further, we've got their solution.

[@progrock3603]

I have the Wharfdale 12.2’s and in my opinion the best diamonds I’ve heard (bookshelves) Maybe Fink being involved was the key! In allot of ways I like the 12.2’s more then my Lumina ll’s.

[@rosswarren436]

I've got the 12.2 too in my den. Augmented by an old Polk Audio subwoofer. I love those things. Maybe not the best dynamics but still very listenable. Ironically, some preferred the older 11.2's "thicker, warmer" sound. Maybe so, but I'm glad I bought the 12.2 instead. I do have to say the Dentons look nicer in finish, but I'm happy. Got the 12.2 in satin white.

[@RanTausi]

SF Lumina II are very good speakers , I wish I have the money to spend on them. I am looking at the second hand market for EPOS speakers maybe!

[@progrock3603]

@@RanTausi They are very good. Total opposite of the 12.2’s. I think you need subs with the Lumina’s They sound great with tubes!

[@RanTausi]

@@progrock3603 Hey , I don't have tube, I have SS ADCOM power pre

[@SlagroomenCornflakes]

I have those Diamond 12.2 as well. Always felt like i'm missing something when listening to them. I should do some side by side testing. Good to read that some people are enjoying them, though.

[@johnshore3095]

The Diamond 9.1 is available new in the UK for £129!

[@trevorbartram5473]

The reason for the differences, different designers! I'd like to see a comparison between between a 9.1 & 12.1 or 12.2. The 12.x reverted to a flat sided box (stronger) & single port (less chuffing). I'd expect crossover part quality to be the same.

[@frederf69]

is the Wharfdale 'Cheaer' a new model?; ain't heard of it 😁

[@SmallChurch]

Hey Danny * got a TYPO in your video title* - CHEAER = CHEAPER.... cheers from Japan, (ex. Scotland). [Lovin' your videos/Channel as always - keep on, keeping on, buddy!!]

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yeah, I just pointed that out to my editor and he just fixed it.

[@newENIO11]

so far i know at least 2 people with dentons that have the midwoofer's tinsel leads snapped. seems like they are a tad short keep up with the high excursion motor.

[@robvermeulen]

Did you put the Wharfedale tweeter back upside down? :) It looks like the logo is 180 degrees "out of phase" ;)

[@_FJB_]

Thats the Mharfedale version. Lol

[@dannyrichie9743]

Oh yeah, I did.

[@steven2809]

@@dannyrichie9743 Typical attention to detail........

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@steven2809 For measuring or testing, it didn't really matter.

[@mitchinoz3787]

Technical ppl don't care much about looks...they don't understand that when ppl see imperfections upfront, people assume shabby work where you can't see.

[@Nonsense62365]

Ok so here’s a good one! We use gold plating on our binding posts! Yeah Gold Is gold a better conductor than copper? Gold is not a better electrical conductor than copper. The electrical conductivity of gold is 70% of copper, not as good as copper. Gold is much less reactive than copper and therefore resistant to oxidation and will prevent corrosion. That’s why some manufactures of RCA connectors and Binding posts use gold, so it doesn’t corrode like copper! Some hi end audio manufactures of connectors like Furutech utilize rhodium plating

[@nocturnal1970]

Yes that's why gold is used as copper corrodes which then wouldn't be a better conductor.

[@evilmonstertruck]

And holy shit. It looks so much better than the original

[@ClassifiedBrief]

That was one hell of a frequency response improvement.

[@steven2809]

Well that is why he took the grills off (not what the designer intended...) to show some kind of 'improvement'. Did he take a measurement with the grills on after his 'upgrades'...?🤔

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@steven2809 All of the measurements posted except for one, was with the grills on, and the upgrade was also designed with the grills on.

[@alexw890]

Keep up the good work, Danny!

[@rogerb5957]

Don't get me wrong here, I really enjoy your channel, but here's something I'm curious about. I get that for full music reproduction, the flattest frequency response should generate the most accurate reproduction of the source material, but what's wrong with letting a speaker retain its inherent character? The Denton's frequency response obviously left much to be desired, but it is also responsible for the unique sonic signature of that product. So, by flattening out the speakers response, as you do on most speakers, aren't you in some way taking a bunch of speakers, all with their own unique personalities, and turning then into monitors that all have a very similar frequency response? And, I get that installing higher quality parts can yield great results, but if it drastically alters the sound of a particular speaker, does that really made it "better".

[@rikardekvall3433]

Do you want to listen to the music or the speaker? Accurate frequency response does reproduce the music more accurate. All speakers, even if they have been tuned by Danny, has its own unique sonic signature, because of the drivers and box volume. Ports, damping and choice of construction material and crossover parts does give the speaker it’s sonic signature. But to get the most correct sonic signature of the speaker and be listening to great music, it helps a lot, to have a accurate frequencies respond.

[@rogerb5957]

@@rikardekvall3433 I guess that I look for a bit of both when buying a speaker. I want a representation that isn't too far from the actual recording, but I also want a speaker that "pleases my ear" so to speak. As I have recently revamp my entire system, I went through numerous speakers before sticking with the one that sounded best to my ears, in my room. The Eleac Debut Reference DFR52 I stuck with worked with my room in a way that gave me the tone I was after. I found that in my room, and with my Marantz receiver, I preferred a cabinet that was a bit "polite" in its presentation, with a full low end, warm mids and a slightly laid back top end. Now, if GR Research made a crossover mod for that cabinet, my guess is that Danny would probably pull up the upper mids and top end so that the frequency response looked "better" and made the cab a little more lively. And while no doubt, the frequency response would "improve" and the parts would be "better", the character of the speaker would also now be different. Again, not knocking GR Research, as I am a fan of their channel. I was just pointing out that, as a speaker designer myself (bass guitar cabinets ), having products with different tone profiles lets me appeal to a wider range of customers. I've also learned over the years that my components need to be of a high enough quality so that no aspect of their performance is degrading the signal, but that at some point using "higher quality" doesn't necessarily mean the cabinet's tone is now automatically "better". It just means that the tone is now a slightly different flavor. Whether or not it is now "better", is up to the customer.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@rogerb5957 Speakers can have various types of character or a house sound that is very outside of the frequency response. The frequency response is just a measurement of accuracy, and nothing more. They can have a flat response and be dull and lifeless or a flat response and be alive and dynamic. The character and sound is far outside the frequency response.

[@rogerb5957]

@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks for the reply Danny. I manufacture speaker cabinets for bass players. In my world, it's really all about designing a cabinet in a way that lets all the bumps and dips in the frequency response to work in a way that compliments our instrument and allows the player to clearly hear themselves onstage. I'm fairly new to the hi-world after just having purchased a system, Marantz Cinema 60 and Elac Debut Reference towers and going through numerous speakers to find ones I like. I definitely found that I prefer cabs with a flavor, vs ones have a totally neutral response. I definitely prefer speakers that are on the warmer side with a treble response that doesn't cause ear fatigue after extended listening. After having numerous people recommend Klipsch towers, I have to say that I found them unlistenable.

[@BeRRooo-nq6cw]

Denton is a muddy sounding speaker with music details hidden in the treble. I would love them to sound as they look but sadly they are not for everyone

[@toddlee2571]

Audiophilia is the constant pursuit of perfection in an industry that wouldn't exist if that were actually possible. Customer dissatisfaction guaranteed.

[@simonzinc-trumpetharris852]

Go Diamond 9.1's! Amazing little boxes.

[@rosswarren436]

I could see the bumped up bass by design and rolled off top end. Some like that "warmer" laid back sound, but man, not that big hole in the middle between 2Khz and 4Khz. I think my stock 12.2 are smoother than THAT. If you are listening to solo piano where the volume of each note is important, that hole would drive you crazy.

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

The 12.1 have been klippeled twice, one by Amir and one by Erin and shows a very linear response bar the baked in 'BBC Dip' intended by Karl Heinz Fink. The 12.2 and 12.4 on the other hand have not been klippeled but from measurements Ive seen (non anechoic) they have a rising treble from 9 - 10khz up before dropping back down at 15 - 16khz. This isnt a bad thing, I find my old 12.4 and 12.2 to perform best with absolutely no toe in to a very slight toe in (think 5 degrees max). Think this will even out that rising response and give a way larger soundstage. The 12.2 and 12.4 are champs at center imaging, no toe in needed at all to get that center image anchored down.

[@brianferns2969]

Love your insights helps plenty. Feel for you Danny or any hifi reviewers. The cancel sound culture that troll you guys are know it all's. Terrible culture. But thumbs up your channel.

[@koprcord5338]

People do get butt hurt easily nowadays. Especially I guess that when they find out what they've been listening to and thought was good is actually crap.

[@dariuszsalamon9441]

everybody have different priorities in sound reproduction that is why there is so many different speakers on the market the same would apply to amps preamps and dacs

[@1mctous]

The wine snobs who buy only by the pedigree usually get blindsided (pun intended) in taste tests.

[@steven2809]

If you are enjoying what you are listening to then the product is a success... regardless of 'flawed measurements'......

[@arthurwatts1680]

Mr Audio Fixation has a video where he repeats a couple of home truths about mastering that most of us know about but don't want to think about. Chances are we've all been disappointed by entries in the Dynamic Range Database - I know I have - but his is a bleak outlook for anything mastered digitally post 1995. No combination of gear and room treatment will ever fix (deliberately) bad mastering, and the labels don't give a sh*t about quality. Depressing stuff, but his belief that mastering engineers are actively competing to see who can deliver the loudest product is the icing on the cake. Bring on the comet.

[@dougbulldog9947]

I have half a dozen Wharfedale Diamond 9.5 towers in my 7.2 system, they sound pretty good but I sure would like to hear what improvements Danny could make for them, I also use the 9CS in this system. I have the smaller Diamond 9.0's on my desktop system they also sound pretty good. The problem is I'll always be wondering how much better they could sound, and I live in New Zealand not Texas damn it.

[@dannyrichie9743]

We ship to New Zealand all the time. The upgrade parts don't weigh that much so it is not as costly as you think.

[@dougbulldog9947]

@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks for your reply Danny, I checked your website in the past, are upgrade kits available for Wharfedale Diamond 9.5 towers ??? Btw I just about watched all your videos, all the cable dramas, the lot, it was cool to see Jay's visit to your premises, and witness your awesome Texas hospitality. Born in 1970 I feel can relate to you and I've learned a lot from your channel,. Thanks for the advice, I've changed out the internal steel bolts, washers, wire connections, on the binding posts and woofers for pure copper, I make my own pure copper banana plug, like a budget version of your tube connectors, using 4mm pure copper tubing, Cant compete with those drag cars though, our local Meremere Dragway is popular.🏎

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@dougbulldog9947 Thanks for watching the videos. I have not worked on that Wharfedale model yet.

[@evilmonstertruck]

Should have the loot for NX series soon. Are there any plans for changed to them before I do?? Don't want to buy them they get updated. Ha

[@scrunts666]

Original Denton 2XP are fantastic. Having said that, Linton 3XP are even better, obviously.

[@peterferrier5833]

Dear Danny. Firstly, I respect you, your knowledge and what you are trying to achieve. However, I listened to a very interesting interview with Peter Comeau. He is chief designer at wharfedale/mission. He spent alot of time explaining why some of the wharfedales are designed the way they are. He says that when you striving for a particular sound, it's not all about measurements. Some buyers like a particular sound signature and he likes to give people what they want. Although I will.concede that what you do is make improvements, it may not be what Peter had in. Also. I don't like streaming. It sounds too clinical for me. Too much like I am being kicked in the teeth. So I listen to vinyl mostly. I prefer what some people may describe as an imperfect sound. Just a thought.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

Your reproducing what was recorded DRASTICALLY different than what was intended. This is very inaccurate. Also drivers not summing together on phase is never, ever, no matter if tweaking for a sound style or not, intentional.

[@peterferrier5833]

@@ClassifiedBrief the artist has no idea what was intended. The music is processed so much in the studio by the producer, who is assuming what the public wants to hear, that when the cd that comes out, its very different to what was recorded. So the argument you are suggesting about some speakers sounding inaccurate, has already happened at the fingers of the sound engineers. And that point was worded quite aggressively. What is it with audiophiles. Why get so angry all the time. This subject boggles the mind. Just relax.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

@@peterferrier5833 Words can be read in the wrong context, always remember that. Not aggressive. Musicians have the final say on a master before release and it's quite common they give input to the mix which is edited multiple times before mastering

[@peterferrier5833]

@@ClassifiedBrief it's too complicated a subject to resolve over a few messages. And as always I respect other people's point of view. This would be a good debate over a few pints down the boozer(slang for pub). My final comment is that the way we perceive sound, is unique to the individual. Our ears have different sensitivities and some get a buzz from thumping bass, others hate it. I knew someone who jacked in all his NAIM equipment and bought a £500 Onkyo two channel receiver. He thought it was better. That is why this community is sometimes so divided. Personal taste will always override an expert's opinion. Because that is all anyone can give. Their opinion. Have a good one. 😀

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Comeau is talking out his ass, if that is what he said.

[@tonyhodgkinson4586]

Everything is built to a price, you pays your money, you make your choice.

[@ElderPinto254]

Thats the truth its not always wat you want to hear but the truth is the truth ....

[@dannyfannyfoodle]

Mharfedale - the tweeter is upside down 😂

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yeah, I stuck it back in upside down.

[@muresantiberiu8018]

You put back the tweeter upside down 😂

[@dannyrichie9743]

I did.

[@myturkishlife1777]

Is the tweeter upsidedown? The "W" looks upsidedown.. Cheers 👍

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yeah, I stuck it back in upside down.

[@myturkishlife1777]

@@dannyrichie9743 😁👍 great video. I had a pair of original Denton's back in 1980 ... Best wishes from Turkey 👍🇹🇷

[@GrahamDyson-h9z]

This is all well & good, but is basically over annalised 'B*****ks ! The Stock Version of the Denton 80th was/is built to a price level & will obviously not be without its flaws. To my ears though it remains a superb performer sonically, & I heartily recommend it to be included on any potential audition list for anyone in the market for replacement loudspeakers ~ If the listener requires improved performance, then possibly twice the financial outlay may be required. 'Get real man' !!!

[@dannyrichie9743]

We actually have DIY kits that eat them up for less than what they sell for.

[@benvanzanten379]

Wharfedale laser 100 is a fine one.

[@starla_7]

I'd be curious to your thoughts on the super Dentons that came out a few months ago

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

Talk about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[@tweakerman]

Fabulous video!!!

[@johnnybass3503]

You guys are awesome, I would never trust anybody else

[@wymotome]

Never understood the point of this speaker and I really don't understand the point of it after the upgrades. It's a vintage looking speaker that's a solid 4 ohm load so in all likelihood a guy with vintage equipment would probably choose not to buy it. Now that it's a 3 ohm load (with the upgrades) that reinforces the point even more. I suppose there are a few "vintage" looking class D amps on the market now and perhaps this speaker would fit in with those? I don't know...just seems a bit of an odd speaker with a very narrow niche. There was no reason for Wharfedale to make it with such impedance in the first place.

[@paulmelendez2834]

The prices for the GR Research DIY speakers are getting out of hand. $800 for the brutes flat pack 😂

[@dannyrichie9743]

You can buy the kit and build the cabinets yourself. The plans are on the site if you want to take a look at them. There was a LOT of programming for this one and a LOT of CNC cutting time to make all the pieces. So the price for the flat pack is really not too bad.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Have you seen what $800 gets you these days? Not much.

[@mikemiller756]

The XStatik kit more than doubled...went from $399 to $974 in three years. 😮

[@jimberge5884]

So is it just the mdf boarding that’s costs 800$ ??? Do you get the speakers?

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@jimberge5884 $800 is for the CNC cut flat pack.

[@moonthink8288]

why is the tweeter upside down in that denton?

[@dannyrichie9743]

I set it back in there upside down.

[@peterwalkerden6778]

My 9.1 are still as they were when I bought them, ok-ish. I still plan to buy the GR upgrade kit maybe later this year. However I feel I should be getting more performance out of them stock than I am. Either my room or my cheap Aiyima amp is letting the team down. So I am unsure how much the upgrade will do over buying a better amp and moving house, lol. It's a dilemma. If anyone in London has done the GR upgrade let me know as I would love to audition them. Send me a message.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

Trust me go with the upgrade... Speakers in general are by far the biggest weakness in a hifi system in terms of pure measurements. You get the best bang for buck with expensive speakers (ie expensive because they are actually well made with good parts) and cheap gear vs expensive gear and cheap speakers (totals being the same for both.) Get your speakers right and then upgrade your other parts. You will be really really happy with a gr research upgrade.

[@RennieAsh]

I'm using an ultra cheap amp with expensive speakers. Aside from power if you turn it up, the amp will be fine .

[@ufarkingicehole]

Which amp do you have? Pre? DAC?

[@quiksr20]

So is this due to them ignoring the issues or because its built to a pricepoint and most people wont notice? Just wondering.

[@kenthomas1613]

How did you get the tweeter's response to increase from approx. 86dB to approx. 88dB? Very interested in how you do it.

[@dannyrichie9743]

No resistors.

[@kenthomas1613]

@@dannyrichie9743 Of course.. Should have known.

[@sloboat55]

Excellent

[@kamilkashaf2766]

If you watch the designer Peter Comeau’s interviews, these are tuned by ear and deliberately voiced a certain way. These definitely have tipped up lower mids. That being said, I wouldn’t change anything about the way its tuned because these speakers sound sublime. For those of you arguing that speakers that are not neutral are not honest and true what the artist intended, I hate to break this to you. Most microphones in studios are anything but neutral, and the majority of them have emphasis around the 3-7khz range. You really think that the studio is applying a correction curve to correct each of their microphones? Couple that with the fact that most studios use close mic’d techniques which means that there is an excessive amount of transient information in the highs that would otherwise decay naturally over a distance where the audience listens from. These speakers definitely take away some of the close mic’d brashness and gives sounds the tonal character of arriving at you further back in the room, rather than first row or on stage. I also don’t know if it is a psychoacoustic effect of some quirk this speaker has in terms of phase alignment or diffraction but there is something special about how these place the sound spatially, particularly in the depth dimension. I used to be a measurements over all else kind of guy. For reference, I owned a pair of Neumann KH80 DSP’s and Polk R200’s before these, so I know exactly what neutral is supposed to sound like. And yet once I heard the Denton 80th’s with all its glaring “imperfections” what I experienced was so profound and convincing that I have stopped looking at measurements as my primary indicator of sound quality. I sold all immaculate, precise measuring loudspeakers and will never look back.

[@alexw890]

If he voiced these by ear then he can’t hear for shit. That’s not how you do it anyway lol. This crossover is terribly designed period. Get over it.

[@dannyrichie9743]

If you think they sound sublime with a jacked up response and cheesy parts that are smearing the crap out of the signal, then wait until you hear them with the upgrade.

[@kamilkashaf2766]

@@dannyrichie9743 If neutrality is what I was looking for, I wouldn’t have sold my well measuring Neumann KH80’s or Polk R200’s for these just to modify these to be closer to that sound.

[@30DirtyThirty30]

​@kamilkashaf2766 Then why come here and comment about shit? Why argue with Danny? He's not doing an upgrade to these speakers because HE WANTS to correct what Wharfedale did wrong. HE IS doing an upgrade because someone didn't like the way they sounded and sent them to him to see if he could improve them. FFS

[@kamilkashaf2766]

@@30DirtyThirty30 I did not realize this was the channel owner replying in the thread, my apologies. And agreed, he is simply correcting the objective performance of the loudspeaker as it would make sense, and he managed to achieve that remarkably well. The intent of my first message not to argue but share an alternate empirical take on the speaker’s performance, as well as some context from the speaker designer himself as to why Wharfedale have put their name to something that has less than stellar measurements.

[@LevelCyclery]

sometimes its the situations, room conditions and also overwhelmed jargons thats involved...now i believe my ears more than claims i saw around...there was a hearing session of systems among friend's..the pioneer sp fs51 sounds better then another friends harbeth and the wharfedale old diamond 8.3 sounds better than an overpriced polk audio of another friend,,,,,i knew i heard it right and im more convinced now after watching GR's videos...and 1 thing for sure..the truth hurts...for some.

[@carmelovillena6174]

your video is great at leat the manufacturer could not cheated us

[@torbenkristiansen7732]

Have you ever wondered how you can recognise live music through a wall from a window of a doorway? Good measurements are ok, but not the deciding factor in my opinion. If you optimise the electronics behind the speaker, you can make almost any speaker sound lifelike, but if the electronics are poor, you can plug in even the best speaker and it won't work. The question is where is the sound of live music hiding, what is it that gives it that sound when it's not precision that we can measure.

[@dannyrichie9743]

Live music and reproducing music do not share the same goals and are not really related.

[@torbenkristiansen7732]

@@dannyrichie9743 So what is your goal with hifi?, my experience is that for most people who are seriously interested in hifi, life like sound is the goal.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@torbenkristiansen7732 Yes, making it sound real is the goal. Live performances though are often not at all like the reproduction of a studio recording.

[@freone111]

I think people associate warmness with something else. The main issue in the topic is bad driver response. A rolled off high frequency is different from one that has peaks,dips or eratic response.

[@steven2809]

But it was measured in a way the designer did not design it!

[@freone111]

@@steven2809 Drivers are measured before production. They already know the response is that bad from the begining and they still decided to use it in this speaker. If you know the insides of audio business its just cost cutting.

[@steven2809]

@@freone111 Incorrect, the drivers and crossover are designed to perform correctly in the cabinet with it's resonant frequencies... and with the designed baffle correction by the grill. Not just a driver in free air!

[@freone111]

@@steven2809 You are kinda implying that they purposely select poor drivers on purpose. Nobody does that intentionally. That grill design is to compensate for that baffle that will cause defraction. Lastly, that driver was tested not in free air but inside the cabinet FYI.

[@steven2809]

@@freone111 I said no such thing.... The inset baffle was for greater rigidity. My point is they are not poor drivers!

[@jukingeo]

Why do your graphs stop at 200hz? I would like to see the full frequency response down to cut off.

[@dannyrichie9743]

That is because we are using a gated time window to remove any room reflections. To accurately measure lower will require being further away than 1 meter and in an anechoic chamber.

[@jukingeo]

@@dannyrichie9743 Yes, in the meantime, I did some reading up on others that did testing and they kind of mentioned the same thing. Below 200hz, the sound becomes more affected by the room. Thank you for responding though. I do enjoy your videos very much and I have to say that it is enlightening to see how speakers are built. Further, I am amazed at how many speaker manufacturers out there, that are considered high end, are cutting corners and really taking the buyer for a ride. Most would be under the impression that you get what you pay for, but with speakers, that isn't always the case. I was shocked at some of the results of your tests on Focal and Revel speakers. Clearly two companies I will avoid. Further though, I was impressed how some of the speakers below $400, got the thumbs up from you and your testing. It proves the fact that you don't have to spend an arm and a leg to get good sound. Keep up the great work! It has been fun following your posts.

[@Shrebina-kq4cs]

Yes, you DO bash speakers in direct comparison with yours all the time. Have you forgotten your NHT segment where you said "any of our kits would surpass this thing in every way", or your Harbeth segment where you said "any of our kits will use higher grade crossovers than this thing"? Also, calling every speaker (except yours) a "this thing" is belittling in itself. You don't just bash and belittle though, but you also dismiss and pretend. When you come across a Proac or Totem tweeter, instead of saying this is a nice and expensive SEAS tweeter, you chose to dismiss it and say "this thing just says made in Norway on it", as if you didn't know it was a Seas. When you come across a Harbeth that measures perfectly, (which is all you're after sadly), you go on to say it uses cheesy crossover parts, just to find something belittling. So don't play innocent. And If you're So honest, just say I'm here to sell you my "upgrade" kits that will take your speaker's original magic away. But hey, they will look better on paper !

[@rikardekvall3433]

Happy you who that can afford the Harbeths. I couldn’t afford them so I bought Danny’s XLS Encore kit, so I would get high performance for a good price. DIY the speaker cabinet. Parts on the crossover are 4 times the cost of the drivers. Seas drivers in the Harbeths are (maybe) 4 times the price of the crossover. There was a lot of parts on that crossover in the Harbeths he showed in one of his videos. They do sound good, in spite all the parts in the signal way. Fabulous finish on the cabinets. Furniture quality.

[@dannyrichie9743]

I will always be honest and call it like I see it. Facts are facts....

[@matthewtaylor7355]

Danny is going to look at full range speakers. He will find issues with the wiring. binding posts and filler material and charge fools 300 dollars

[@dannyrichie9743]

It is a big misnomer to think that full range or wideband drivers can be used without a filter.

[@PedroCorrales123]

Danny, unrelated question, does the woofer structure cause ringing in the response? I think the material is stamped steel (what you used to see in old car speakers)…what can be used to dampen this?

[@dannyrichie9743]

It doesn't ring so badly that the ring shows up in the response, but it can ring if excited at the right frequency. All of those stamped steel frames will to some degree. Lining it, or adding some strips of a material like Dynomat will work. Our No Rez works great too. A few scrap pieces with the foam pulled off of it works great.

[@PedroCorrales123]

@@dannyrichie9743 thanks Danny. I will do no rez on cabinets anyway. Cheers!

[@kylisa206]

Hi I really need your urgent advise whether Polk Audio r200 vs Denton 85, which one has better sound quality?

[@joeburke9061]

What is the sonic effect of steel in the binding posts/related parts?

[@ClassifiedBrief]

Steel is magnetic and this causing mangetuc inteferance. Steel is a ferromagnetic material, meaning it can be influenced by and generate magnetic fields. When steel parts are placed in the audio signal path, they can potentially introduce magnetic interference or interact with existing magnetic fields. This interference can lead to distortion, coloration, or other undesired effects in the audio signal.

[@steven2809]

@@ClassifiedBrief Steel is ferrous not 'magnetic'. This is bunkum. An audio signal is not going to generate a 'magnetic field' in a nut...😖

[@steven2809]

@Hastings Piper Exactly! 👍

[@dannyrichie9743]

badd99 is mostly correct, and it does have a clear audible effect. In addition to what he said, I've noticed a smearing effect, loss of detail, and disruption of decay.

[@jfritzy4358]

@Hastings Piper So how many things in the signal path that individually don't make much difference, additively can make a difference? 2? 4? 7?

[@steven2809]

Danny I respect your expertise and what you do.... but this time you have made a fundamental mistake. The designer Peter Comeau specifically stated the Dentons were designed and voiced to be played with the grills ON. It contains a form of wave guide and is meant to stop the diffraction caused by the inset front baffle. Therefore it's silly to measure with the grills OFF and then criticise. Many people love the sound of these 'heritage' speakers. You also neglected to mention the multi layer cabinet and superb veneer finish. Crossover parts don't have to be expensive, just the right specification to do the job the designers want. You seem to be willing to avoid/bend certain facts to justify your criticism..... not cool.

[@dannyrichie9743]

If you watch the video again then you might note that we measured them with grills on and with grills off. I noted that they measured better with the grills on and did all of our upgrade work with the grills on as well. The grill isn't really a wave guide, but it does block the diffraction caused by the overhanging sides. It is also a fact that the budget level parts hold back the performance. If they weren't trying to meet a low price point then they certainly wouldn't be using them. Also, if you look at the measured response of the woofer (even with their crossover on it) you will see a response that is not a sought after curve. No one choses for a response to look like that. That was a mess.

[@jimberge5884]

Agree why would you bother measureing then shitting on when the designers say too keep them on … Danny isn’t sincere! I shite on his woofer quality ..the white ones they are bloody ugly..and I made a comment to buy the Denton 85s I own and sound awesome and are beautiful!! 800$ the veneer !!!!! I like you Danny I like the crossover quality talk .

[@alexw890]

You are wrong. No one in their right minds or with any skills designs a speaker with the drivers out of phase. Parts matter as well. Stop making excuses for poor design work. Just accept that you purchased a poorly designed product.

[@jimberge5884]

I bet you there are 100s of speakers that cost big bucks that don’t measure well ..Danny needs to get his hands on some Oma/fletwood man that would be the coolest video ever!!! 😆 wouldn’t that be soo cool and fun

[@steven2809]

@@alexw890 You are talking about Peter Comeau who has been designing speakers for well over 30 years and has produced award winning designs for Quad, Mission and Wharfedale......🙄 He has an unbeatable track record and immense knowledge...so I know who I trust!

[@johnnybass3503]

When I saw your first 5 videos I new ya'll were the real deal

[@seanjoell]

Keep telling it like it is Danny, keep telling it like it is!

[@phillamoore157]

You seem like a really genuine guy, but for the average person looking to purchase a speaker in this price range (and these are both the same price right now), this info is next to useless. When you have a limited budget, to this degree….we just need to hear it. How do they sound with a budget amp. Very few people purchasing speakers at this price range, will be purchasing a set of speakers, then upgrading parts. I’m sure the channel is exceptional for those looking to do these kinds of mods. But, the title was really misleading. Hitting the Like and Subscribe buttons, because I think your intentions are 100% genuine. But, this doesn’t help anyone just wanting a sound comparison, with a budget amp.

[@lsaideOK]

I think KZbin audio guys usually fall into one of two camps. There are ad hoc reviewers. People who don't own the company or anything just post reviews of other people's stuff or stuff they've bought. Then there are dealer/ manufacturer reviews. You straddle the line going back and forth which will create some measure of an appearance of a conflict even if there is none. Or not much of one.

[@sameshitdifferentcolour4197]

İ am waiting crossover upgrade for diamond 9.2

[@Jason787]

Your selling upgrade kits to improve other companies products so clearly you do not want to stop people buying other companies products. Its wise really as for those who do not want to buy your products for whatever reason can improve what they do buy.

[@dannyrichie9743]

The upgrades are just a service we offer to our customers. For many it is a fun DIY project that they can enjoy and that will improve what the have.

[@tonyperring]

You have it upside down!

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yep, I stuck the tweeter back in upside down.

[@jimmydwallace]

Okay let’s look and listen to all top utuber reviewers . They love this speaker, I have not listened to these guys. A disconnect somewhere!

[@dannyrichie9743]

Yeah, I would question any reviewer that thinks these were great the way they were.

[@johnholmes912]

O Come on you are always bashing other companies' products

[@dannyrichie9743]

No, I am just always honest. We have a number of videos that give praise where it is due.

[@welshrarebit9238]

Could someone please send in some Wharfedale Opus 2M1 or 2M2

[@Nihil1st1347]

I Wonder, what You would das about my cheap cyrincs 220 system. Right now IT does what I want it to, but I plan top change IT anyway.

[@davidcarr2216]

Let somebody measure them who knows what they're doing !!

[@dannyrichie9743]

Someone just did.

[@davidcarr2216]

@@dannyrichie9743 I see what you just did there 👍

[@matthewtaylor7355]

I have wharfdale 9.1s... a reasonable cheap speaker.. My Tannoy Turnburys 3600 GBP 10 yrs ago piss all over them.. I have many others.. The 9.1s lack substance in comparisoon

[@clayc124]

It says a lot about a company when they produce a product that is not good: They're only in it for the money and don't care about the quality of their product.

[@perlman7376]

All the moronic engineers at KEF, Klipsch, Wharfedale, B&W, Focal, Totem, Revel, Magnepan, etc, should be fired tomorrow. I just wonder how all these speaker companies have sold so many millions of speakers to so many millions who have enjoyed them for so many decades. It's a real brain puzzler.