Inside Tabletop - Let's talk about the growing problem with Starter Sets...

[@jotterface8401]

Starter comment.

[@JCBofficial1986]

Expansion comment

[@seileen1234]

​@@JCBofficial1986 Print to order content

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Sometimes a comment comes along and I’m like… “these are my people.”

[@michaelmiguelsanchez]

2nd edition comment

[@MansMan42069]

Errata comment

[@christopherschwab6525]

I love that Inside Tabletop isn't just dry industry insiders using shorthand: it's people who love tabletop games being honest and genuine and frank about "how tabletop games are missing the mark, and could learn to be better by watching successes and failures." Calling balls and strikes for the love of the industry and the medium is a refreshing energy, and it's why I keep coming back to GMG.

[@simonplumaj5542]

Why did you use quotes? Would your comment have made sense without them?

[@Mr_Waffle.]

I got back into 40k during 9th, shortly after buying the starter set I felt like shit when I discovered the Indomitus box existed a few months before and had MOUNTAINS of minis I didn't get... and GW really rubbed it in by selling the missing minis in outrageously overpriced online-only sets ("honoured of the chapter" and "royal court") which costs more than the starter set!! When I started getting into Battletech I was SHOCKED when I found the boxes for that, I kept reading and re-reading and trying to find the catch, you get all of it in the box? Really? I couldn't believe it lol. Such great value, love my little mechs!

[@jerseygeneral3722]

It's one of the things that turned me off GW after years playing 40k and fantasy. They've made a key component of their entire business plan FOMO. Indomitus should have just been the starter kit for the entire edition, not a limited splash release. That's why Black Reach was so good. It was affordable, available and a great box for new and veteran players. I know a lot of people that bought multiple sets just to build out an army, then buy the more expensive fancy kits to beef up those armies (myself included)

[@habuowe3483]

We joke whenever a 40k player starts asking us about Battletech when we're playing at the local hobby shop, "Its cheap enough that you can play it and still keep playing 40k". LOL

[@Keithslawinski]

lol same. Friends got into Bolt Action. Got a starter set with near a full army for $100 then we 3D printed out some tanks and were all at 1000pts (tournament size) for $150 total investment. Looked at the 40k "patrols" yesterday for $170 and just started laughing. MAAAAAYBE I could justify $100-$120, but $170 for 500pts when 2000 are needed?! Sry 40k is dead to me. The saddest part is it would be fun to try Kill Team or something with my existing models, but its still over $100 for the privilege of getting the "core rule book" + "Compendium" just to use OG 40k models with friends and see if I even like the game. The price gouge and need for 2-3 books just to get to a table just feels gross and exploitative. At this point they have lost all of my group as customers who were interested in the game, but aren't going to try it because of these practices.

[@jerseygeneral3722]

@@Keithslawinski look online for fan made kill team rules.

[@snackelwolf4462]

A father recently asked on a local store Discord about his son's interest in 40K, and what he needed to play. He had no idea what to do to help his 12 year old get started. It is possible a store employee PM'd him, but that is unlikely. What is highly probable, based on the responses and lack thereof, is that we lost a future player that day -- or delayed their access. I don't play that system anymore, yet I did respond, asked some questions, and tried to be helpful. But the significance of the barrier and complexity could not of been more pronounced within the situation. This video truly hit home tonight. I'm the father of a gamer and we still play together, and I want others to have that shared experience.

[@DahVoozel]

I have played 40k off and on for like, 10 years and because I became disillusioned and dropped out shortly after 9th was released, I now have no clue what anything means, what is important or how the game plays. 10th is just that different that I wouldn't feel comfortable giving advice even about factions I have collections of.

[@NecromancyBlack]

As someone just getting into Deadzone, the 2-player boxes are insanely good starter sets, like Battle for Skull-Pass was. 2 armies (the Fall of Omega VII boxset has a combined total of about 30 models!), full rulebook + forces book (so everyone has their own reference for opponents models), play mat and a good chunk of terrain. Play mat even has a smaller sized map on the back with rule references printed around it for learning the game. Once you've got the basics you can flip it over and play proper, at which point you're probably gonna go out and buy more terrain and models to start expanding.

[@ianmasica3933]

Deadzone is such a great skirmish game. No measurement, terrain is gridded out on cubes (horizontally and physically). All the math is really streamlined for dice rolls too. It's just so intuitive.

[@arnhelmkrausson8445]

It's the best starter set I ever bought. Although monetarily speaking, X-Wing 2nd Edition is nearly indefeatable

[@box2battle]

BattleTech Alpha Strike box and any Mantic Deadzone two player box: these are stand outs in the industry right now. Incredible value and quick to get to the fun. (Honorable mention: Dropzone Commander.)

[@DungeonMasterJohnny]

Best starter set ever? The 1983 Basic D&D Red Box, by Frank Mentzer. You are in a adventure immediatley and you learn the game as you read and go through the adventure. Classic

[@misomiso8228]

Couldn't agree more. Such an underrated product. So good.

[@willtijerina5149]

The Battletech Alpha Strike boxed set is an example of a perfect starter

[@peterclarke7240]

Basically almost any starter set by any company other than GW. I love the Bolt Action Band of Brothers set. £60ish for a box that contains everything you need to get you and a friend started. £30 each to get started in a table top game (that's pretty simple to learn and doesn't really suffer from rules bloat and sweaty gatekeepery) is wonderful. The only GW equivalent is Killteam, but that's more of a gateway drug to 40k rather than a starter set for 40k.

[@Jak0vas]

@@peterclarke7240 FFGs Legion starter sets don't let you run a legal list, luckily they started cheap enough that buying two was still cheaper than many GW starter sets.

[@peterclarke7240]

@@Jak0vas I guess the logic of a starter set is to not worry so much about the actual lists being legal, but whether the available miniatures included represent sufficient balance and variety to enable fresh players to get started as quickly as possible learning the rules and having fun. Sure, it's nice if they are legal, but not essential at the entry-point into a game that you will get more involved in as time goes on. The main thing is that you can pick a side and learn the ropes.

[@5p3cu10]

The best starter set I can think of that gives that "hobby experience" is TT Combats - Carnevale - Escape From San Canciano. 8 minis Mini rule book (full rules) Dices, measuring stuff and all the tokens. A mat Cardboard buildings All that for £35 retail. The only thing is the models require built.

[@amharapneb1773]

Came here to say this, the other starter box is also great.

[@Ads.D]

Yeah I was going to say that about the main starter set of theirs which is good value, but £35 is better 😁

[@5p3cu10]

@@amharapneb1773 I agree. I just picked the smaller one as somebody brand new in hobby would be sold the tiny box much easier. It's less of a commitment. I agree that both boxes are fantastic

[@pedroalves6425]

came here to mention TTcombat.

[@daniellogue8365]

In defense of their original tiered starters I bought the Recruit edition, with 2x3 space marines v 3 plague marines and 6 pox walkers, when I was at my parents house for a weekend and it was cheap, perfect size to give me some stuff to build, and pretty balanced, mat and building terrain. I had a lot of fun with it. It made it feel like a smaller scale version of the game with squads of 3 and made it work really well. The 2 squads a side made it fun and gave you choice in target selection. The newer low tiers of 5 space marines and how ever many termagaunts or 5 stormcast and 20 skaven just doesn't give you any tactical flexibility.

[@commodusleitdorf2726]

The lack of Modern mini rulebooks in the starter sets is the real crime here.

[@mykeycuento5576]

The 1st Edition Kill Team starter set was perfect; it had two kill teams, terrain, ruler, dice, and a Core Rulebook that had all unit profiles.

[@Dram1984]

Meanwhile the 2nd edition is almost impossible to explain to a new person what they actually need to play the full game.

[@InfernalTeddy]

I think Battletech has always had brilliant Starter Sets, especially going by your criteria

[@luketfer]

Eh the Ral Partha ones were either difficult or non-existent to find outside the US. It was weird because sometimes you'd find them in the Bargin Bins of Virgin stores back when they use to stock things like Dungeons and Dragons minis (got a lot when Virgin stopped doing minis/boardgames and thus massively reduced EVERYTHING miniatures and boardgame wise to get ship of it). The only other place, at least local to me, was Orcs Nest in London. Essentially you had to find dedicated Miniature/TTRPG/TCG hobby shops which were few and far between back then as GW often used scummy tactics to force out indie hobby shops when they set up their own, they were nowhere near as trade friendly as they are now.

[@ObiwanNekody]

The Battletech Alpha Strike box even has some excellent cardboard terrain included, enough terrain for a typical gaming table.

[@felipea7147]

Yes, that starter is good

[@bonkstrum9555]

It is the best one iv ever got. Me and my buddy got the alpha strike box. Split the armies. Read rules and played. Now we're getting the core rules. And each picked up another lance.

[@coreymorse1347]

@@luketfer Ral Partha didn't sell starter sets. They sold packs of minis to replace the cardboard standees that came in the starter sets.

[@omegonchris]

The AoS Ultimate starter set has the contents to be the perfect product. Everything you need to play Spearhead right in the box, push-fit models ao you can start building straight away. It just need to be about half the price and called something else. Even "Fire and Jade" would work perfectly well.

[@davidmesh5491]

It does have the fire and jade book albeit smaller than the one found in Skaventide.

[@TheKid_88]

What a smartass😂

[@readwatchlisten2863]

The two Battletech started boxes, A Game of Armored Combat and Alpha Strike are great starter sets. Everything you need is there. Great price, lots of minis, and all the things you need.

[@michaelhurrell1724]

Not too men to mention when you factor how many points worth of gear your get. Like you dont need to buy anything else. But of course everyone does because we cant help ourselves. Two of the best gifts you can give someone IMO.

[@timunderbakke8756]

I’ve honestly tried to rope people in by saying “seriously, buy this one box set and you have your complete single player game experience” because the Alpha Strike box has everything but a tape measure. Don’t ask me how many mechs I have, that’s not important

[@CmdrPinkiePie]

Kill Team - Octarius. That’s the one I enjoyed the most. Everything needed to play was in the box. Terrain, scatter terrain, measuring tools, complete rule book, additional book for the set, counters, board, dice, and a great choice of kickass minis. True, it could be confusing for a total newbie due to the fact that you could have a larger roster than the number of minis on each side, and the minis weren’t easy-to-build (although build options are necessary for KT). It is so much better than the Starter Set they made for it after. But that thing was HUGE, weighed a ton, and cost under $200. Once you had that box, if you wanted, all you’d ever need would be a kit for whichever other team you wanted to build. Blood bowl is the same, I think. Incredible game, and the starter box comes with everything you need.

[@senti5468]

That was a really ghood box. The terrain looks great, it actually works amazingly for the game, it's useable for a ton of other stuff and both of the starter box teams were fun.

[@CyrodiilCome]

Loved the conquest starter set Nords vs City states. Had rules printed out and instructions on how to use their app to get stats. Ran so many tutorial games with that set.

[@angrychainaxe2803]

I really enjoyed this episode. It was nice to hear more informed people critique this shift in GW starter boxes. I will say that Battlefront makes great two player starter boxes for Flames of War. They are probably the best out of the box experiences I have had with gaming.

[@crouchingotter]

For me it was Infinity Operation: Icestorm. PanOceania (Blue) vs Nomads (Red). Play mat, intro rules and terrain to get you started. It was released between WFB End Times and AoS and was the perfect product to pull me away from GW and open my eyes to other games outside of the big industry leader.

[@brianp6859]

Loved that set. The father knight is still my fav mini from that set

[@LukeMartinVideo]

I just got it second hand 👌 the father knight is amazing 😍

[@herrsmith8459]

I love the discussion as always but we don’t spend a lot of time talking about the modern customer for wargaming. The launch box / starter sets are made for your target market. Question for you both: who is buying the products today? Have they played before? What’s their experience with the hobby? What is competing for their time? Do they have disposable income? Who is the starter box really aimed at?

[@discovergames7654]

From what I have seen, it's all about selling to new person. Have been to a Warhammer store lately?

[@herrsmith8459]

@@discovergames7654 I’d like to hear what they have to say but I have a suspicion that the vast majority of people buying these boxes are not new to the hobby. A typical customer for a box set strikes me as somebody in their early 30’s or older that’s getting back into the hobby or who has been in the hobby since they were younger. Does a fifteen year old have 250 to drop on a launch box set for a game they have never played and will need to spend upwards of 100 hours building a set so they can play the game?

[@ntw3002]

I can't speak about 40k/AoS, but the specialist games 'starter' sets are not made for beginners at all. They'll often be packed in with two new factions with gimmicky rules and awkward conflicts, clearly written with no consideration for learning the game. The Corpse Grinders vs Enforcers Necromunda box and Nobility vs Black Orcs Blood Bowl box are particular standouts. There was very obviously no intention for new players to buy those sets.

[@herrsmith8459]

@@ntw3002 that’s a fair point. Some of the starter boxes and launch boxes are add-ons to the original core set but offer a new unique experience Like a DLC in a video game.

[@suedennim8985]

I have been blown away by the Bolt Action Gentlemans war starter set. Loads of models, an armoured vehicle each, rules. tokens, cardboard rules etc. Everything you need to pay.

[@BigPigEnergy]

It's been the best Bolt Action starter, imo. The forces are not only points-balanced, but functionally balanced. The nitpick would be a lack of terrain, but it's honestly minor.

[@3Xero3]

I'm looking for: 1. Complete experience within a single box. 2. Good value for the price and affordable to draw new players. 3. Readily available. 4. Bonus points if value is so good that buying multiple doesn't sound crazy. While a more niche game, I liked the newer Adeptus Titanicus starter box. Everything you need to play (including nice looking dice). 6 models that could get a single player set up with a decent enough starter force, or allowing for two players to learn by splitting the box to play a smaller 3v3 intro game. Buying from a FLGS with a discount lands it around $140 which might be outside some hobby-dollar range, but is quite affordable compared to other GW products. It had limited availability for a bit, but now it is readily available. Finally, it hits the bonus of buying multiples if you want to build up a bigger force. If they could've knocked the price down even further I think it would have drawn a lot more people to the game.

[@Dram1984]

Yep, the mark of a good starter set is that it can provide a complete and fun experience all buy itself. This means for minis I want two fun to play forces, a basic campaign/mission pack of some sort, the full rules and everything I’d need to play.

[@housecaldwell]

You've been in the business for a quarter decade? You mean "Quarter Century" and that sounds WAY more impressive!

[@Sammo212]

That Crisis Protocol set really was amazing. I’m glad I got it when the game launched.

[@Phil-H01]

Battle for Skull Pass was my first purchase in the wargaming world. Great box set, glad to see it get a shout out all these years later!

[@selrahcmoonandstar]

I’m very excited for the upcoming Forbidden Psalm The Last War starter set from Wargames Atlantic and Will I haven’t had many, but my favorite starter set was Mordheim. Beautiful work of art rulebook, great miniatures, fun cardstock terrain that still inspires diy and home crafted terrain 25 years later It wasn’t an official box, but earlier this year North Star did a Frostgrave starter deal, with a Wizards and Soldiers box, rulebook, two d20, and treasure tokens all for a great price, and that was awesome too

[@goreshadetube]

I like the ASOIAF model with complete faction based starters.

[@samwiserando]

my favourite starter set i got was the first Dropfleet Commander. full rulebook 2 small fleets paper game maps tokens, dice, tape measure. everything in it made me excited to pull more out of the box, haven't felt like that since i was in my teens with a new GW edition.

[@ultimentra]

This has really interesting timing, as a new edition of Kill Team was just announced this weekend and it has.... drumroll please... A STARTER BOX. Like a true start box that has two forces, terrain, a book, tokens, measuring device, absent dice though (minus points in your book I know). But, it looks to me like its not the main line GW teams that are doing it right, but the specialist games teams. Kill Team, Necromunda, they seem to be knocking it out of the park locally in design, execution, and optics. I am curious about the reasons and what you and LoW's thoughts might be on that trend. Octarius in 2021 was an awesome box set, this one looks really great too.

[@Frantik33]

That conversation needs to happen between management and shareholders

[@GuttedAU]

I think some of the best starter sets on the market are AsoI&F. The two player starter packs are no longer in the production but I think the single player ones are even better. For around $100 USD (probably less) you get ~50 preassembled minis, cards, thin molded plastic containers to keep your minis organised and safe in the box, dice, ruler and a full rule book. The best things is you have enough troops to engage in the low points game and one or two purchases will get you up to the desired points level with options. In Australia you can get two faction starters of your choice cheaper than a single AoS spearhead. For the price of GW ultimate starter you can have 2 full competitive meta armies.

[@einrauser6103]

The Battletech: A Game of Armored Combat boxes have always been a phenomenal value and experience. We played hundreds of hours of Battletech just using what would come in those intro boxes.

[@jaelee1996]

The original Conquest: the Last Argument of Kings starter box was the one for me. Complete experience, good value, really sold me into the game.

[@mauropaneART]

Hey! author of Darklight: Memento Mori here (might have heard of it). I think the reason why GW does have a certain monetization agenda is the same reason as a lot of live services videogames. You are forced to buy 1 package which gives you "almost" all you need, only so that you spend that little more to buy the "complete" set. Games do this by selling you coin packs that are just a few short from every single item of a certain category in the shop. The sad part is that this is a proven strategy that does actually bring more money in at the expenses of that first time buyer enjoyment you guys are talking about, and yes I hate it too. When people bought Darklight they did not mind the slightly higher cost for the boardgame because the box was heavy and full like GW used to do, but in the end it is not a sustainable business sadly enough (unless you have a lot of games in your portfolio to sell).

[@ahather]

it's a ttrpg but the Runequest starter set is amazing, 4 small books (rules, setting, soloquest - a solo adventure to help learn the game, Adventures - a book of short adventures to get an actual game started) plus a whole bunch of pregens and play aids, and a set of dice free quickstart PDFs are quite common withing ttrpgs - basically the core rules or a stripped down version of them, a set of pregenned characters and a short adventure to give the game a try, pretty great if you're already involved with the hobby, not so great for getting people into ttrpgs, more a way for people in the hobby already to give a system a go, but given most get into the hobby via DnD I dont see that changing( much as I wish it would), most ttrpgs arent trying to reach the general public they're trying to get people to try something other than dnd

[@jfuente]

Call of Cthulhu starter set is great as well. Chaosium doing good things.

[@winterismute]

As you mentioned, Ash, the Battletech Alpha Strike box set is a perfect starter set. Packed with content: minis, rules, tokens, terrain, dice. When I got it I had instant flashbacks to getting the 2nd edition 40k box set. It's that good.

[@HistoricLife]

When you brought up Shadespire my first thought is I loved that game. They second was the never ending expansions and card arms race killed it for me. Glad to know I am not alone.

[@The_Rising_Ape]

Honestly my main problem with the majority of starter sets is the price. As a hobbyist on a very tight budget most starter sets are way beyond my price range, for example, the new Warcrow game looks amazing but with the starter being over £100 there's just no way I can get it without months of saving my meagre hobby budget. A very few, surprisingly including GW's AoS and 40K smallest starters, like Carnevale's Escape from San Carciano and the Battletech Beginner box are affordable enough but don't contain enough to play bigger games and are really more like Taster sets than true Starter sets. I know that the expense is an obvious complaint in this hobby but it does remain the major barrier for someone such as myself to get into some of the really cool looking games we'd like to try.

[@timothypollard6008]

There's a couple of games that get around that by having free printable PDFs with 2d paper "miniatures" you can download to try it out on the website, but yes. (Relicblade and Battletech are the ones I'm thinking of off the top of my head) You're right about the "starter sets" that are really "taster sets". On that front one thing I'm interested about is what sort of new starter sets ME:SBG will get later this year with the new edition. Something like the AoS/40k mid-tier Starter Set would actually be entirely playable with ME:SBG. Smaller than most tournaments, but you do see tournaments played at 200 points which is basically a single hero and 8-12 warriors for average armies. Even the budget tier 40k/AoS intro set is kind of getting close.

[@gham588]

The Oak & Iron core set is a great starter set. Rules, movement tokens, a bunch of ships in colored plastic, and cardboard punch outs and a paper mat. Takes 2 minutes to put the sails on the ships and unfold the mat to start playing for something like 75$ US.

[@vtec407]

Thank you for making this video. I think those three 40K starter sets are confusing, especially for those looking to enter the hobby.

[@MentatOfDune]

I was out of GW's games for ages then I heard a new Necromunda was being made (I loved it in the 90's). Then the game released at a price point that I just couldn't get into. A decade(ish) later I picked up Blackstone Fortress and although the campaign was a little repetitive and gameplay basic, the overall product had more than enough to get me excited for miniatures again at a decent pricepoint. Those gateway products are needed so much. From Blackstone I got into Kings of War, Underworlds etc. Also loved XWing back in the first couple of year of it's cycle.

[@TheJason011]

Song of ice and fire stark vs Lannister starter set is a recent gold standard imo

[@SciFiPorkChop28]

yeah, seriously.. the ONLY issue they suffer from is the confusion over cards and rules updates across seasons, but if you JUST play with that box, it is fantastic value and so fast to get on the table

[@davidgordon2801]

Agreed. Cost to entry plus can play it straight away. Huge value. Even if each person buys single starter, and 1 other box. It's between 75-150 each player depending on where purchased. Lot lot of replayability

[@coreymorse1347]

The skirmish version box sets that are coming out next year look like they are going to be pretty much ideal starter sets too.

[@TheJason011]

@@SciFiPorkChop28exactly, I play the game a few times every year or two now and everytime I go crazy updating the cards haha

[@erih2934]

just introduced my girlfriend to 40k - through cutting the long introduction to the hobby, but putting a small scale game (basically boarding action) with painted miniatures and terrian and just offering her the gameplay loop. she has fun with it and started to get into the lore and miniatures - making the entry as hard as gw is doing is costing them so many customers - its just that those don't show up in the numbers.

[@jamespeterson9620]

Let’s never forget how insightful and thoughtful Ash is on his game commentary. He completely gets the business and the experience. His passion for the user experience is fantastic and sadly antiquated in this FOMO unit pushing business structure.

[@HandofBlake]

Battletech Alpha Strike is another great starter box. Everything is faction Neutral, easy to learn, and always has a cool look and art. Biggest selling feature, giant robots!

[@timunderbakke8756]

And it has included terrain so all you need is a tape measure

[@TheKesslerFoundation]

I would argue the original Space Hulk set brought a ton of people into the 40K game by saying that you could use the same figures. Gangs of Commorragh was the same, but was an insane value. The original Heroclix starter boxes had everything you could ever want, and hooked you on getting more. More recently, the new Blood Bowl starters had phenomenal value, as did the 1st edition Don’t Look Back starter box.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

@@TheKesslerFoundation Space Hulk 89 is an all-time box for sure.

[@TheKesslerFoundation]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGamesalso the one I forgot - Arcane Legions.

[@SomeDudeOnYouTube]

Have to agree on the X-Wing box. It just worked on every level. Then keyword-creep ate it's lunch money XD

[@awesome_claw]

I do think that the x-wing box is borderline as a 2 player starter set. You can play a super introductory game, and the intro game is very stripped down in a way that makes it kind of bad (no obstacles means that you're flying around in circles round after round). Plus it's missing dice, damage deck, measuring tools etc for 2 players. If you take 2 of them then you can play a good starter game but at that point it's starting to get a bit pricey.

[@SomeDudeOnYouTube]

@@awesome_claw I disagree. Obstacles where in the box and since you do not pre-measure but reveal your dial one at a time there is no need for a second set of tools. Yes it would be convenient but not needed. Same goes for the dice and damage deck. The box was a complete beer and prezels game in a box with a flock-ton of potential.

[@johnturner7790]

Since rolls with 4 dice are fairly common, a 4th of each color would have been better. But 3 was fine with the rule set & the starter escalation game was both a lot of fun and a great way to learn.

[@theWolfnMiniatures]

The Space Marine Board Game is like the secret 4th tier of 40k starter sets. I bought one for the models and read through the rules and it actually sounded pretty fun. It's a trimmed down 40k but gets you reading stats and rolling dice. A friend played it with his son, neither having 40k experience and he said they had a blast and were looking at buying one of the 10th starter sets as an expansion. Seems smart, I'm guessing this is by design. But then there weren't rules for how to play Starter set + Space Marine Board Game.

[@ngangkh]

Gaslands rulebook + 4 hot wheels cars. Cheapest starter ever.

[@EODChaosWo1f]

from my experience FLGS's hate gaslands so much and dont want to stock it or anyone playing it in their stores, because sure you can buy the rules from the store but then you are going out and buying toy cars from anywhere else which are like $1 to $2 a pop that they cant make a profit from. but then are for some reason ok with people playing rpgs or boardgames that are long out of print or are before they opened. =/

[@crann777]

@@EODChaosWo1f A bad LGS will have this notion that people only play one game. If you play M:tG, you *only* play M:tG; if you play 40K, you *only* play 40K. So in their mind they should be able to sell you a new RPG supplement or a new board game because that's the only thing you care about as a consumer. If you play Gaslands, then they believe that you *only* play Gaslands, when in reality it's a secondary/tertiary/pick-up game and you'll probably make an impulse purchase for something else while you're there. There's no direct carry-on sale from Gaslands, and they're not creative enough to see the other sales opportunities it presents.

[@wesleyejackson]

19:36 I feel Ash slipped back in Sales Manager mode.

[@Marshallo.o]

Off on a total tangent, but love the old Battletech poster. Reminded me of the big box C64 Battletech Crescent Hawks game back in the 80s. I still have the pin badge somewhere that came with it!

[@klavakkhazga3996]

I feel like for miniature games, starter boxes are ways of selling you miniatures you don't want. RPG starter kits for example, where you don't need miniatures, have been getting better and better the past few years

[@kudosbudo]

As somebody with a mountain of grey minis I'd love more starters sets that just didn't include miniatures. Decent card standees would be fine. Then I can choose later if I want more. I don't have lots of room so anything that can reduce shelf space is great. Also means I don't have to build/paint anything before playing.

[@Torkijo]

Some great current ones that stay for a fair while (although you need to glue), such as Deadzone and Carnevale. Do like the 2000AD ones as well. The original Walking Dead All out War one from Mantic was fantastic as well.

[@dexv33]

Aeronautica was the last really good starter set GW produced where you felt like you could just have fun with it as a standalone boxed game, or really get deep into it and buy up a bunch of extra aircraft to customsie your lists and expand your games. They did have multiple starters, but the difference was just a choice of factions rather than any kind of value/complexity swap. Quick to learn and play, and enticed a lot of X-wing folks over when the rules bloat of X-wing's second edition really started to wear thin (I was one of them).

[@TerrierHalo]

What we really need is Salt n Pepa singing about it to raise awareness. Yes I am behind, but I’m catching back up!

[@Darkwulf2101]

I was really happy with the starter set Mantic put out for Firefight.

[@MrPiotrowicz]

No joke. i tried to get to know more about Marvel Crisis protocol the other day and I was like - where do I even start? thanks for the show.

[@wargamer234]

I think is why the Flames Of War starters work so well, with 1-player or 2-player ones you get either half an army or a full army that's playable. Basically everything you need to play except for one template.

[@toogreytogame]

I was in a Warhammer store last week (UK) and you can see the AoS starter sets were designed to be a joint display with 40k. First time I thought that they're more about in store display than for users. The other bit was that I talked to the guy who runs the store and said it was a pity the mid-range set doesn't include full Spearheads. He said that was intentional as they're for new hobbyists, not new gamers.

[@Guru_Swami]

Battle for Skull Pass and Black Reach were phenomenal starter sets! One of my all time favorites was the Fantasy starter with Empire vs O&G, 6th edition I think.

[@ianmasica3933]

@GuerillaMiniatureGames Loved the discussion! Pardon the unsolicited suggestion, but in future videos you might want to consider moving the text at the bottom; it's overlapping with the captions and makes it a little difficult to read.

[@unspeakableoaf]

I've been complaining about GW's starter sets for a while. The first two regular Necromunda sets of the current edition and the premium Uprising were awesome. Warcry had two perfect base sets in a row, then Catacombs was merely alright, and then it degraded greatly. Kill Team had Into the Dark as the best real starter in my opinion. Their Adeptus Titanicus game was also pretty nice. Now you're paying more for not all that much. Kill Team sets like Termination are not too bad, but it's pathetic on the terrain side. Compared to the separate components it's pretty good though, as it comes with two teams, fighter cards for all the members, cards and special rules. FFG always had terrible starter sets for their somewhat collectible card games, and weird distribution of cards. Anyone who had Netrunner remembers THAT pain. Marvel Champions and the revised Arkham Horror: The Card Game started the new era of actually sane core boxes. Their miniature games aren't too terrible either, but the recommendation for Star Wars:Legion still seems to be to get two cores. RPGs have a bit of a revival, and really nice starter sets or even full core rules boxes are now common. Standouts are most of Free League's games (Alien, Blade Runner, Dragonbane and Twilight 2000 are crammed with stuff, Forbidden Lands is an honorary mention) and Modiphius' Dreams and Machines (starter is filled to the brim, and more versatile than other starters). Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Wrath & Glory from Cubicle 7 are cheap starters with premades, but these sets also include a fairly thick setting book that works well with the full rules and other resource books. Slightly anemic RPG starters are Edge Studios' Star Wars games and most of the older Modiphius starters. The components are nice, but they're a bit expensive for what you get. D&D's starter sets have been similarly thin on contents (huge box, barely anything in them), but the Essentials pack was a really good one - that should have been the REAL starter. And I'm saying that as somebody who doesn't touch D&D. It's just my recommendation for people who absolutely want to try it :) tl;dr: I'm falling out of like with GW's sets, and hoarding RPGs. I won't ever play it, but I even consider Magical Kitties Save the Day now.

[@blkjet117]

For AOS. GW should have created the Spearhead starter box. 2 complete forces, and everything you need to get started. That should have been it.

[@brianp6859]

The ultimate starter set is exactly that

[@RowdiesFan1]

The Battlefleet Gothic box was a great deal as well. Dice, rules, measuring device, reference sheet, blank ship charts, and 4 cruisers each for Imps & Chaos that was more than a solid battle in itself, but also formed the absolute backbone of each of those factions forever.

[@mikebaker6804]

Warlord Games puts solid 2 player starter sets for all thier rules.

[@BrewsGamesRides]

Always enjoy these conversations.

[@misomiso8228]

Or even if you don't do a follow up vid, maybe a series where you play the starter sets of various game systems! Would be good content Ash!

[@SirTeaOfBagz]

Mantic is really nailing the starter vibe with the upcoming Halo Flash Point. Can’t wait to get it and play. Even my board game friends are wanting to try it since everything is included in what I ordered.

[@chasepaterson634]

My favourite introductory box wasn’t a Two player starter set it was the Warmachine/hordes MK3 warcaster/warlock battle box. It came with a warcaster/warlock and their battle group, Rule book, Dice, Ruler, 2x2 battle map. All for like 50cdn. So you and a friend could each get your own box and have everything you need to play and battle it out Side note every two player starter set should come with TWO RULE BOOKS. One for each player!! Nothing worse then splitting a box with a friend and trying to figure out who gets the rule book lol

[@michaelhurrell1724]

GW have had one really good starter in recent years, and that was Kill Team 2021. Two full crews, terrain, full rules, and all the gubbins you need, and at a crazy good price. A very return to form for them IMO.

[@garryhollingdale3598]

Mantic's the Walking dead Starter Set came with EVERYTHING you need it was awesome! I played many many games before i bought anymore for it

[@misomiso8228]

Final comment: Why don't YOU design a starter set Ash?! Do a video putting a set together and show us what you ACTUALLY want GW to do? Would be interesting to see!

[@amazingactionape]

Warhammer Underworlds Shadespire was another banger of a starter set. Priced well, with everything in the box, game played amazing. Excellent points about MCP/Shatterpoint.

[@BigPigEnergy]

As someone who buys a LOT of game systems, as I just love tabletop gaming period, and who has been recently helping people get into the hobby, this is such an important topic. There's absolutely standouts like Battletech or World of Tanks (the starter is incredible for getting people over the mental barrier of "it's expensive/complicated"). But, I look at some of these and wonder just who they're targeting. Some sets seem to be trying to syphon existing hobbyists from other systems without considering the need for new hobbyists, and some just seem to be unapproachable in the most bizarre ways - I bought one recently that was just models and a book, not even bases. I knew that going in, but... I'm not sure you can feel justified in calling that a starter set.

[@TheKGBtsar]

A little over a year after 9th edition 40k came out a Mother asked about the 40k stater sets in my LGS Facebook group. She had a small budget and wanted to get something for her kids for Christmas. Saving to buy something later wasn't an option. Winter was coming. I played the Recruit 40k 9th edition stater set twice, once with an 11 year old once with an adult friend, I found that set fun both times. It was good value had some replay value. The Camand 9th edition stater set in my opinion was a good next step, it was definitely the aspirational product for someone to save up for after buying the Recruit edition set. You have said many times that you would rather get $50 from 100 people that Much more from fewer customers. Recruit edition was a great OOB experience, dice, rulers and push fit minitures with a clear next sep. They had recommended individual minitures you could buy to add to the small Recruit edition and the Command edition had the rules and terrain that would show what the full.game looks like I closing I think the middle set is the one that doesn't need to be made, $50 to get new people in and $200 for when they come back for more.

[@tragicthegarnering3619]

Skull pass is my peak when i think about starters, it was 120 nzd and had 2 chars and 4 units per side which is great! My first was 6th($95) which wasn't bad at 1 char and 3 units per side, though the model are defiantly not as good as the later ones.(also currently the only way to get orcs with bows >.>) I have never really liked the 40k starters as they always have space marines which are a low model count army, but very few od them have more than 1-2 chars and 2 units, Dark vengeance might actually be the best 40k starter as it was 2 chars and 3 units a side. Current middles starters are what 1-2 chars and 2 units a side for 200 nzd, thanks gw, I'd rate the middle aos was great if it had a second unit of clan rats and liberators for the same price.

[@jerseygeneral3722]

Black Reach was THE BEST. I started an ork army because Black Reach made it affordable. And not "GW affordable", but actually affordable. The only company I've seen lately that still does starter sets well is Battlefront. Hit the Beach is a solid starter for Flames of War. My first US and German armies were just 2 Hit the Beach boxes. Then they back that up with their force-specific army boxes. As you mentioned, they have names which is fun. They're a bargain and have value for new and veteran gamers alike. They have a full 100 points army that you can play right out of the box, but it's not an optimized force so that encourages future purchases to make your force more your own. And oh yeah...they ALL come with a full rulebook. Every FoW or Team Yankee player has a handful of rulebooks which is a brilliant marketing idea. Someone comes into a store and sees 2 people playing, they can talk about the game and if that person is interested..."hey, I have an extra rulebook. Here. Read it and see if you like the game then come back and get one of these boxes to get you going. The Team Yankee starter was criticized because it only had tanks in it so they just made a new one that includes armor and infantry that still has a great price point. Absolutely brilliant all-around. Nobody is more starting player friendly than Battlefront.

[@christiancouture2194]

To me the Golden Age of miniatures in the past 15 years was probably Warmachine/Hordes mk2-3. The prosuct and game was so good, the prices were fair and the community was on fire. I mourn the hell out of that time. Hoping for a good reboot!

[@coreysullivan422]

Relicblade's Storms of Kural is hands-down the best starter set released since 2020.

[@timunderbakke8756]

I’m not sure, CGL’s Alpha Strike box set is pretty solid too. It’s a whole game in a box because you can mix and match your mechs into a custom force even if the tournament scene has forced faction identity on a game never designed for faction identity. You use the cardboard terrain and presto, you’ve got a cool little game ready to go

[@jonathanpalermo6166]

Hey Ash, we met at Adepticon in 2023 (I'm the Aussie living in Ottawa who was stuck trying to start doing you tube vids). Anyway xwing was so huge in 2012 it was being sold here at Chapters Indigo.

[@Boris945471]

I found the Shatterpoint starter to be a gold standard for me. Models, Rules and Accessories in a box and the most important things...Terrain! I painted it up in a week and iv played it pretty much every other week for a year or so. It's enough to get me and my local club hooked and then expand on.

[@shinankoku2]

The Shatterpoint starter looks hot

[@ObiwanNekody]

Battletech: Alpha Strike is also like this. Everything you need to play a reasonable sized game with two people in the box.

[@Nipponson86]

Kill Team had it all before Shatterpoint even came out and the next starter will too. But here's the thing - both games are skirmish. So it's kind of expected, and it's hard to compare it to the ‘big’ wargames.

[@Belgrond]

It’s the same with Marvel Crisis Protocol starter set. It has full teams, dice, rulers and terrain! Basically everything you need to get started

[@popburnsy3207]

The problem I have with Shatterpoint is the same problem I have with any skirmish game starter box. I don't have to have every team, but the only way to get into Shatterpoint is you have to get this single box. It saddles you with two teams, that you may or may not want, in order to get the rules. At least Kill Team has a separate rulebook released later. But GW has other issues with getting stuff out in a timely fashion, the rulesbook may not turn up for 3 to 5 weeks(or more) later, as with the terrain and the assorted teams

[@aldervonwell]

The Moonstone starter set is a great introduction to the game.

[@SciFiPorkChop28]

honestly biggest issue with Moonstone starter is that not everyone actually knows how to work with resin... like not for nothing, but there are posts all over the place of people buying resin products and not having any idea what to do, not understanding the health risks, not understanding the need to wash the models first, and as cool as Moonstone is, there are some fiddly bitz... I guess I'm also sort of looking at a 'starter product' as something that a teenager could buy on their own without being "in the hobby already"... versus a "start playing this game product" for someone already who is a gamer.

[@Kalakmol]

Parabellum Games has done great two player starters and faction taster sets for Conquest.

[@Silverbullet58640]

What's funny / interesting is how one great starter set like X-wing from FFG can ultimately benefit the rest of the tabletop world and other companies within it. My background in tabletop is from playing Magic since I was very young and getting more into modern board games as my friends group was starting to take interest in them as good ways to get together and spend a night. X-wing was my first leap into the miniatures world, and not having to paint them was an easy on-ramp. I ended up getting into repainting them and then finding more games ( Bushido, Middle-Earth SBG, Steel Rift) thanks to channels like this one. But yeah just goes to show that the long game is more important than those early earnings they are perhaps weighing too heavily. Because now I'm in this deep and loving it, and have played many different miniatures games and painting and modding models having a grand old time.

[@nicholaswestern6796]

The X-Wing starter set was excellent, but it was also mandatory to play the game at the time of launch. Starter sets shouldn't be required to play any game they should just be an option.

[@kasuheartsrivals]

Really good video and discussion. I couldnt put my finger on why i had such an issue with starter sets from a variety of companies now, compared to when i was selling starters for xwing back when i was working retail, and this sorta nails the underlying issues.

[@BrotherMatus]

I think Necromunda, the original one, was my favourite starter set and Mantic’s Deadzone is one of the best out now.

[@Leroy_Jenkins_]

Awesome episode. Thank you for having me miss Assault on Black Reach. Took me back. Island of blood was one of my favorites; it was the first one where the minis were clearly designed differently from the rest of their ranges. Took it from a tabletop game to a collector's/collectible game. One critique, your mic seems low or its not picking up your lower voice. Sometimes on the tail end of sentences the volume falls off, but the guest mic is great. Second thought it may just need to be a tad closer to you. Looks like you are more animated than Chris.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

As a store owner that has gone from small to huge store in a few years, I’ve seen way more value from the new Marvel crisis protocol core set and shatterpoint than any GW “starter” set except for Leviathan. Yeah it’s a higher entry point but overall I think the mcp/shatterpoint sets are much more satisfying for the consumer. I absolutely hate GWs 3 tiered starter sets. I never order them because I always have the launch box in stock for a month. Let’s not even talk about how they refuse to release a mini rulebook now

[@infinitedm5396]

They release the rules for free is probably why.

[@SPACENOMADMALEV]

So much of these thoughts are what lead to things like Demon Ship, and the #oneboxwargame challenge!

[@macca-of1yc]

Love this video, great topic. The best current starter that I’ve purchased or seen has been Raise the Black by Firelock Games, insane value and very balanced, you can literally stop there and have enough for ages… not that we would stop 😅 I haven’t touched a GW starter set in ages, they aren’t worth the money and require to many additional purchases to make work.

[@uriance88]

I'm going to drop my vote on the Fallout: Wasteland Warfare 2 player starter set - a bit over $100 Canadian, but everything in the box to play, including tutorial scenarios. And while the minis are PVC, they hook you with all the expansions being resin. The starter is just at that 'just cheap enough' to get people to try it out and then for those who stay, there is the long-term faction pack sales. Once I had the minis painted (optional, but I like painted minis) my son and I sat down and knocked out a couple of games in an afternoon - the rules were reasonably well organized to get you up and playing.

[@johnamcf]

Plus Wasteland Warfare has rules for solo play in the box, along with expansions for open world creatures, dungeon crawling and expanded campaigns. Everyone's favorite game factions and notable NPCs are also available. Solo play rules are now a big selling point to me. If Necromunda had solo play, I'd whale it like crazy because I've loved the lore since first edition, but I don't have anyone to play with.

[@IlanMuskat]

They also totally nailed this with Betrayal at Calth

[@kudosbudo]

Betrayal at calth is just a great boardgame by itself. Those ge boardgames that can stand alone but provide a lot of stuff are great

[@IlanMuskat]

@@kudosbudo great point -- it was a different set of base rules, but still a full experience. But the title alone! Just pulls you right into the story. (And the connected novel "know no fear" absolutely COOKS.)

[@Enemy0fMine1415]

It's interesting to hear both of your comments on this tbh... it echos a lot of what a friend and I discuss a lot. They make good products, but the last ten years has seen that shift to a buy buy buy methodology and the end user experience went straight out the window. I think rules suffer for it too, as gw want something weekly to sell, to ensure FOMO sales. So rather than quality over quantity, its become quantity over quality. As can be seen in the new Blood Angels stuff imo... instead of getting something refined, we get Ballgag Skeletor and the Golden Gimps.

[@MrSnakeCake]

i liked the old battlefleet Gothic starter set. Battlefleet gave you the rules, whippy sticks, dice models, counters, terrain and Reference sheets!! And it was so easy to expand the 2 forces it came with. coming with 4 cruisers for 2 factions was a solid core to your fleet.

[@tempusavatar]

Thanks for the video. I work in a hobby shop and we have this analysis every month regarding Marvel, WotC, DC, etc. I think the problem is the CEO/corporate structure doesn't reward long term, stable slow growth. "Line Goes Up" means that CEOs are willing to scorch the earth for maximum short gains and then leave on a golden parachute before everything turns sour; then it's the next guy's problem to pull out of the nosedive.

[@markmclean9640]

Fallout Factions battle for nuka world is good although a bit expensive (not surprising as it's Modiphius) Mutant Year Zero zone wars is totally there, good price and pre built minis

[@sitrucsimian5450]

I bought fallout factions nuka world for $75 from my flgs. That seems like a great price to me.

[@blakepearson9948]

The upcoming halo game seems to hit the big 3 areas. Hopefully it takes off.

[@FluteGnome]

I liked the old world launch box, it had everything for 1 player, the only thing it missed on was availability, it took 2 months to get back into stock properly, by then people would have moved on, bought different armies, forgotten about tow, or printed their own.

[@noblegalifreyan4551]

For me my favorite starter sets where the A Song of ice and Fire The miniatures game starter set for each faction. It's a great way to have an army out of the box that's pre-built and has terrain measuring dice and the rulebook. It does suck that you almost need to buy two to get the actual experience going head-to-head with a friend. The original Stark versus Lannister box was great for this but I think currently what they have now helps in creating choice for each person who wants to play or have their first time in the game.