Inside Tabletop - Let's talk about the launch of Age of Sigmar 4: Skaventide

[@saltfreegamer]

Nailed it. They have over saturated their market, they're hitting the ceiling for pricing, and they're not investing in the customer base. Customers have a lot of choice these days, it will be interesting to see what they do to keep them over the next few years.

[@Crushanator1]

A fantastic video. I worked in GW in the 2000s, and the launch box loss leaders used to get SO many new customers. Skull Pass, Battle For Macragge, things in today's $75 range would be absolute game changers. Some of these conversations are things we were talking about internally 20 years ago. To your earlier point, it does seem like GW doesnt want 100 customers spending $50, and they dont really want 50 customers spending $100. They want every current player to buy every single product, and I legitimatly don't understand how they plan to recruit new customers. Its night and day vs the 2000s, just trying to fleece whales vs getting every teen excited to share the hobby with ALL their friends. It makes for a very grim opinion of where the games will be in say 5, 10 or 20 years.

[@terraneaux]

Maybe the thought is that 3d printing is coming so make your money now.

[@Infernal_Puppet]

For the Elden Ring analogy, you can estimate the number of people who completed at least one ending from the console trophies/achievements. It’s actually over 30%, which is impressive for a game a game of that can take many people around a hundred hours to finish on their first play-through. I would not be surprised if Elden Ring has a higher completion rate than the average launch box from GW.

[@MasterShake9000]

I fundamentally love GW’s properties, but I’ve realized that their best games are the ones they leave alone. 30k first edition when it was effectively a one man labor of love by Alan Bligh, and now The Old World - no “seasons”, no constant monetizing of rules changes, no churning through editions. 2nd edition 40k had 10-ish codexes in 5 years, and FAQs were primarily the occasional WD article rather than quarterly hard resets or yearly handbooks. I legitimately miss the pace of 90s GW. People complain about the prices of individual kits (and they’re not wrong), but it’s the constant avalanche of rules purchases (and related updates) that I think will start causing burnout and people giving up because they can’t keep up. Even games like Kill Team and Necromunda have this rules churn. I’m curious how Spearhead will be handled. A slower pace and limited army size I think has a lot of appeal.

[@paulyg405]

Yeah I agree with this completely, as much as a $450 AUD big box is a hard sell, if it was a good value proposition and the only big thing you needed to buy in 4 or 5 years it wouldn't be an issue to justify it. The churn is bad enough now focusing on a single game, let alone 2 or 3. 2nd ed 40k was when I started playing and that pace was fine, it offset the high cost of the models when you knew you'd only need to buy a few each year.

[@kaibe5241]

@@paulyg405 And now GW stores don't even support existing customers - it's all about getting new customers in. You can't play games there unless it's demo games... IT's clear where the focus is.

[@kaibe5241]

You are 100% correct. Play MESBG - hardly gets touched. Getting its first revision in over 6 years end of this year :) Makes it awesome.

[@scatterthewinds3126]

And mesbg.. a gem

[@timothypollard6008]

@@kaibe5241 To be fair that may be going to change. It looks like GW might be trying to get back into the old "new movie; new book" edition churn that they had back when the LoTR and Hobbit trilogies first came out, and New Line is planning to release a few more live-action Middle Earth movies over the next 10 years or so. Though likely the changes between editions will be less than the AoS and 40k crowd seem to have to put up with.

[@NapGod]

"GW is making nothing but Elden Rings" is the perfect way to put that. my final 3rd edition tournament was in April and the shop had Dominion on sale for $110 USD. I'm so happy with 4th edition right now. between the new rules and the spearhead game mode I get to have a great time playing AoS anywhere from a competitive setting to walking my normie friend through what a Skaven is while I teach him Spearhead. I really hated the climate at the end of 3rd. I love competitive AoS, but I could also understand why people felt the way they did about constant rules changes from GW and how that negative energy gets misdirected. The game required a level of obsession just to have a full handle on the rules let alone how other armies work. Thats fine for people who are already obsessed and are going to play in tournaments, but it means the game is useless for everyone else. I'm *so* happy about spearhead. I don't play SCE or Skaven, but I got the launch box specifically so I could use it for spearhead with my friends and family who all have been curious about this thing I love, but before now has been completley byzantine and impenetrable for them. I can have fun playign the same game with more people now and also at a more relaxed level.

[@MarcGriggs]

Hearing the talk of the long term gain from talking people out of a purchase, I was a red shirt many, many years ago (the time of the LotR movies) and while in the Romford store, we'd always do this - especially with kids wanting to make a giant first purchase, or going for a special character or Big Tank as their second army purchase. They, and especially their parents loved us and we ended up being one of the most profitable stores for our size (among other customer friendly practices). It wasn't the Kirby way, but being honest absolutely worked, especially when done from a good place of wanting good hobby rather than sales obsession, breeding long term loyalty and trust.

[@casualhitman]

Hope Owen's well, always loved seeing you and him chat or game

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I think It was pretty clear that GW held back the preorder/release of all these other systems to focus the customers’ attention on Skaventide. And then, once the box dropped, GW turned on the tap and all the other products poured out.

[@kevoreilly6557]

We call that product launch strategy :)

[@liamfishwick2943]

I was considering taking my Thunderstrider warcry warband up to an army level. But after GW squated the older minis and advertised the way you build armies is you can (in effect) only have 3ish heros. After that info I decided to wait for after the box launched and read the rules first. In summary, GW made me get over the box hype.

[@andrewarmstrong3098]

I greatly enjoy this series of videos. Being able to hear the retailer side of the industry is very interesting and helps provide the full picture for how GW marketing and releases impact the hobby and customers. Chris is a great guest and I always go out of my way to watch if he makes an appearance on your channel.

[@Nekorook]

I appreciate these videos because I like seeing how the store side of things are going.

[@bryanvestal3923]

I was a longtime fantasy battle player who readily embraced AOS and I loved it from the start.I liked the idea of getting in at the ground level. That said ,what people don't understand is that most older wargamers come from a historical gaming background. They like a game that they can buy the stuff they need and then just play forever. I know guys that play ACW or colonials and that is literally all they play every weekend and will til they die. These game companies want to engineer the player base to constantly spend money weekly on new stuff, new games etc. The problem is time and money. Few folks can keep up with that. Why would you? Nobody needs that much stuff. Sure, its good for game shops but I'm not in the hobby to make retailers wealthy . I only go to my shops rarely and certainly not to hang out or play games. I have a home for that. There is just too much vying for people's money and I'm afraid a hobby crash is on the horizon and I think it may be bad enough to set the hobby back for years to come.

[@Anchises]

I wish GW would be a miniature manufacturer instead of a rules hustler. Let people spend their money on the models and armies they want instead of the endless books and pdfs. I'm sure the rules churn makes money but I fear they're bleeding players.

[@infinitedm5396]

​@@Anchisesmost of their customers aren't even players. So . Success?

[@bryanvestal3923]

@infinitedm5396 That is sad however , I'm afraid you are right.

[@bryanvestal3923]

@Anchises Me too. I miss the old days.

[@infinitedm5396]

@@bryanvestal3923 it's.. well it's by design. They always tout how they're a miniature company first on their reports. At the end of the day as long as you buy things you like you can use em for what ever you want. Hell there's a ton of great indie games you can just plop them into.

[@RowdiesFan1]

The $320 comment was right on point! I made that decision this weekend with the Agents. I already own all the odds and ends Agents models, so decided not to buy any of the model boxes and just stuck to the book.

[@khartraxx]

I will add my perspective on AoS. I entered the game with a relatively open mind. I was even excited to an extent to see a simplified rules. I thought I would be able to introduce my friends to Warhammer and have more people to play with. In the end, I didn't mind the rules and more or less enjoyed it. But when I looked more into the lore, I was not impressed. All it felt very artificial and maybe not really grounded. I couldn't imagined myself wanting to explore in my mind how would it be like to be inside this world. I then looked back at WFB and felt a bit of anger, that the urge to be inside that world will not be satisfied as much as I would like it. Which was not the case, as Total War series did it more than I would have hoped for. That said, the disinterest with AoS persisted and continues to this day. I am writing it as a counterexample to the view that people who prefer WHB over AoS are simply haters fueled by grief.

[@samwiseweezy7250]

I hear you on the lore. It seems so "manufactured" and doesn't present anything that feels like living, breathing worlds. There are compelling elements to it, but for me its mostly to do with the faction I like the most (Gloomspite Gitz) or early Gotrek literally being salty about how lame the Mortal Realms are compared to the Old World. Still like the game quite a bit though, lots of fun and I for one don't really need much lore to appreciate goblins shanking some nerds in heavy armor lol

[@khartraxx]

@@samwiseweezy7250 I heard that Skaventide lore is quite good, but I haven't looked into it yet (and with the Old World i will probably never do). I agree with you, the game itself is fun and I will still play it with my casual friends. I can't imagine them learning 200 pages of rules of the Old World just to smash models on the tabletop and have some beers. For my own more serious interest in the hobby, I have fully transitioned away from AoS.

[@alphabromega859]

Could not agree more. I also have open mind to AOS and the game and models are sick. But man the core book with the lore in it is the biggest waste of paper i have in my house. I have never read such unengaging worldbuilding in my life.

[@1337Sess]

I think a lot of things point towards them having issues with production capacity in the last few years, so it makes sense that they want to sell less things for more money. If they maxing out their production capacity already then they can't go the route of selling more things for less money even if they wanted to. At least until they can improve their production capacity like through that new factory they are building.

[@soapboxk2203]

This is a huge factor. They simply cannot make enough models to meet demand. They keep upping the prices to test the upward limits of what the market will tolerate and people keep buying.

[@televiper11]

I dropped GW for Battletech & Frostgrave. Very happy with that decision.

[@samwiseweezy7250]

Lol Chris and Ash being emotionally well adjusted about their relationship to their hobbies: "Are we sociopaths?"

[@bdog6160]

To me spearhead is the inevitable future of mini wargaming of the masses. Having 4 or 5 2000pts armies in this economy is no longer possible. Minis are just to expensive to buy on mass and I'm yet to meet a player that only wants 1 army. I'm happy with spearhead as my hobby time reduces. Hope they support the mode

[@theDackjanielz]

Between Warcry, Underworlds, and Spearhead im busy enough with the hobby as it is!....Somewhere i got Kill team and i dunno how i'm gonna fit that in to be honest.... 4th edition looks brilliant but i just don't wanna spend an entire day playing one game. I never realized just how nice it is to not have to bother list building, it saves so much faffing about!

[@suspecthalo]

It is definitely a good development, but if this was to be the future for the masses then I think a wider range of skirmish games would fit the niche better.

[@BrandonL337]

I think spearhead also serves as a much more manageable game for tournament play, let's be real here, 3+ hour games on 4x5 foot boards is not conducive to competitions. Spearhead tournaments could genuinely be finished in a single day, without going from crack of dawn to midnight to do it.

[@suspecthalo]

@@BrandonL337 Yes, but it feels like a weird in-between of skirmish games and full-sized games. I don't think it has staying power as a competitive format, especially given the lack of list building. If you want faster, smaller games then there's any number of very good skirmish games. If you want to play a game of big armies, then you're just going to play a full game.

[@mattjek828]

Agreed, I personally also don’t want to spend 4-5 hours on one game. I played a few games of spearhead and was done each one in an hour.

[@DasDevilSquid]

Real interesting conversations with Chris. Nice to see the 'middle' perspective of these games.

[@TheTelexer]

I enjoyed the talk, thanks for the video! I bought the Skaventide box, and have liked Spearhead, and 4.0 seems like a great refresh. But between buying new faction terrain for S2D, buying Endless Spells because they're free now, and having sat with with Skaventide stuff for a month... part of me feels like a sucker, even if I think the game is fun and the models are cool. I think the chase for quarterly profits is giving that feeling to a lot of people. At least for me, it's started me actively looking for a non-GW game to play.

[@jacobbaldwin1256]

for the record I was able to put 30 skaventides in my cart on 8/18, before I got bored

[@8BitJesus]

I think that's the problem for me with GW products at the minute, like anything that was £120 or less (especially with a discount) was an impulse purchase but now I'm a lot more careful with what I buy. I'm fully aware that a 1000, or 2000 points of an army is a huge investment. Then they're oversaturating their own market, it just feels soulless now, "buy this thing! but here's the new thing, buy this!". It's just a blur, there's always the new hotness out. Weirdly I had this conversation over the weekend too, like no-one I know has bought into Skaventide - we're all really into AoS but with zero interest in buying it, despite thinking it's a really good box

[@ghostmutton]

Skaventide is the best "big box" product they've made in years from a customer value perspective. And 4th edition has brought with it a flood of newcomers at our store. Calling it a either "flop" or a "success" is too one dimensional.

[@iExploder]

I started Skaven specifically because of Skaventide, personally. That, and my local game group has been starting to get into AoS 4E.

[@justjarjar1]

My issue with spearhead right now is I own 2 AoS armies and have 0 spearhaeds. (BoC and IJ) As soon as GW fixes that I am more than happy to give spearhead a chance.

[@papag30rgi07]

I also have BoC and wish they had spearhead rules for it too

[@tobbexxxxx]

Hey Ash! Thanks for the video interesting conversation. May I suggest that you move the lamp behind you. It cast your face in shadow so its sometimes hard to see.

[@nicsutton8367]

Skaventide was my first buy into AOS

[@paulyg405]

Do you guys find that gamers who might once have played 3 or 4 systems are now focusing on 1 or 2? That's where I'm at. The pace of releases + the huge cost + time constraints means I can't afford to give systems I don't already play any bandwidth. The safest thing to do is just write them off, ignore them and keep limited funds for the stuff that's where true passion lies.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

That comes with time I think for everyone as their pillars of money/time/mental load grow and diminish naturally as their life evolves.

[@paulyg405]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames completely agree, I do think the changing face of the hobby pushes people in that direction more than it used to though. It's more prohibitive to dip your toe into something now unless you've got friends who already own all the stuff.

[@jonscott6459]

All the good things I’m hearing about AoS 4th edition and seeing how amazing the minis are has convinced me to get into AoS. I didn’t buy Skaventide though, because I’m just not interested in these armies. Instead I’ve just bought the Core Book and I’m weighing up which army to start collecting. There’s a few that appeal to me, but none of them are Stormcast or Skaven.

[@jamiemckelvie5067]

Listening to this kinda late, but I find it interesting how the problems around shifting risk to the retailer, short term profit thinking, and little attention paid to how to grow the customer base long term, are identical to the situation with the big publishers in comics. It sounds like it's a bit newer here, maybe? It's not a good path to be on, anyway.

[@15mmGustavus]

In NZ here it's sold pretty poorly it's 530 and some are interested but it's mostly a no

[@andrewrockwell1282]

As someone who hasn't worked in a game store in 17 years, launch bundle and starter set sound pretty much the same.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Some key differences; no ‘getting started’ material or dice, measuring devices, etc. MUCH higher price point.

[@davidwasilewski]

Im a middle aged bloke with a good job. A hobby retail whale who can get what toys he wants. As an (ex) squats and beasts of chaos player, who is also a 40 year veteran of GW games - I’m finally out. Selling all my 40k, 30k and AoS. I’m solely focusing on historicals, Warmaster, and Legions Imperialis going forwards. I’m not salty, I’m just making a rational choice for me at this point. Genuinely interested in seeing how GW does in the longer term, if they’re driving away people like me from 99 percent of their product range going forwards.

[@infinitedm5396]

Not salty. Posts lengthy salty response. Lol😅

[@davidwasilewski]

@@infinitedm5396 😂🤣 I’m more sad than salty, to be honest. I’m not (and never will be) completely ‘out’ of the GW ip and its universe as it’s something that I have literally grown up with, and stuck with. But I’m done with the repetitive cycle of codex chasing, an evolving meta and having to re learn the game and adapt every 3 years or so. At least with Warmaster and LI (which GW will quietly drop in 2 to 3 years) I can still get my fix but have a stable game.

[@tinyfishhobby3138]

@@davidwasilewskiI don’t understand why you would sell all of your existing collections though? I get being salty about constant 3 year edition changes - I don’t buy 40k or AoS rulebooks anymore - but the older editions are still there to be played and enjoyed. Pick one that you liked and play with your close friends group.

[@davidwasilewski]

@@tinyfishhobby3138 my local scene won’t play older versions of games that are still supported. Plus storage is an issue! My gaming room is full and if I want a ton of legions Imperialis terrain, I have to make some space!

[@HappyDuude]

I've a bit of buyers remorse getting skaventide Vs the starter set with spearhead - got it primarily for spearhead, and the launch felt a bit confusing about where fire and jade was appearing

[@garyjenson1326]

I want to know the story of Jay and Chris swapping the same two shirts on the channel. Am I crazy or is there a meta here?😂

[@andyashbey133]

4th has rekindled my excitement for large scale games. Fantastic game

[@arctichordewargaming3550]

Miss Owen!

[@3v3rhard]

GW main games are fun if you have time to play a lot and do not have much other responsibilities. Once your limited in play time the changes are to fast to keep up. Now I will be only sticking to heresy 30k which doesnt chance much over the years and is also not so competitive in playstyle.

[@raincoast_bear]

They obviously want sell thrus. But I'm still seeing Dominion and Leviathan on shelves....

[@maephiharuna]

Nobody plays Stormcast, thats the main factor. You might have 40% of an LGS have a Space Marine Army. I'd bet not even half that play Stormcast proportionally.

[@MortalAgenda]

@@maephiharunathis is just false. They’re the most played army in events data, and online groups have plenty of people posting images of SCE they’re painting or have painted (and not just the Skaventide and Dominion kits). It’s true that they aren’t nearly as popular as SM but they still represent a large proportion of the AoS playerbase.

[@MetalKingStudio]

Half a canoe... AKA. Why I didn't buy Skaventide. :(

[@CyrodiilCome]

Kind of quit AoS after old world came out. Old world being announced all those years ago is what got me into AoS. Dusted off my brets and played. Tried some of the new factions didn't really tickle my fancy.

[@marekskyrim]

I don't know if complexity really matters in the end for sales. If that was the case, Warcry sales would be above the top and GW would do much more for pushing the same kind of simple game system. I think GW's mistake with Skaventide was pushing too much on the game / balance argument, IMHO. Funnily enough, I think the recent Necromunda box has much more appeal on that matter because they didn't care about making another tournament game obsessed with balance there, but a narrative one with a different campaign putting a gang player vs some kind of Dungeon Master.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Complexity in this case isn’t in game design (AoS is a very rudimentary and simple core rule set), but rather the presentation to a new audience. We start to take for granted our ability to absorb this stuff after a while, how the mental load is first delivered really does matter to retention

[@marekskyrim]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Thanks for the clarification, I mistook what you meant in the video.

[@BarronFamily231]

GW has was too many games throwing way too many super-pricey FOMO boxes at customers all the time. I wanted Skaventide, Hive Secundus, and the Old War Dwarves boxes. I got frustrated by the crush of product and am going to buy none of them. I think if you have multiple game lines with GW and you’re not the Monopoly Guy, you either get burned out or just get over it all. The end result is still the same. My car payment-equivalent money is needed elsewhere.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

I'm fascinated at how GW keeps "repeating the cycle" of selling you the same game over and over and over again, especially after all the discussions about Legion and FFG's struggles. Back in the 80s they had their initial line of metals, but then in the early 90s they had purpose made metals that actually were bespoke for Warhammer. Then in the late 90s/2000s they changed the tone of the game somewhat (the nervous looks on my Dwarf peasant faces went away and everybody started to become a battle drone) and had newer metals and modular plastic kits. They did Finecast at some point, but that sucked and you'd be nuts to want that over a real metal miniature. But then in the 2010s they tried to turn everything into a plastic mini and had a huge range refresh with big modular plastic kits. And then they killed the game and tried to make a new line of AoS models. And now 8 years later what do they do? Discontinue old models arbitrarily and release new look versions of older plastic models. I know Chris' channel discussed this a bunch, and they both thought, "well you have to discontinue models," but it's funny that it didn't occur to them GW's never ACTUALLY done this before. And maybe working for Games Workshop blinds you to it somewhat, you don't see what the consumer sees, but every 8 years or so they've had a range refresh based upon improving technology and skill. Materials and methods changed, or in 2016 they trashed the old game and made up a new fantasy game. But this time none of those three things are true. We're not moving from lead to pewter, or from pewter to plastic, or from enthusiastic but inexperienced sculpting to serious and experienced sculpting. There's no sense of evolution now. They correct-scaled Marines in 40K, and that gave them an evolution there, but what does AoS have? And what will 40K have for its next cycle in a few years? It's the same plastic range made using the same hyper-competent sculptors using computers. Slimming down Stormcast armor isn't going to do it. Just like AMG's making a new MCP starter and giving Captain Marvel a new hat didn't do it. And I'd note, making up a new faction in Kruleboyz really didn't do it. So do they have anything meaningful planned that will actually work?

[@supermarx]

That's why I'm hedging they will eventually do Epic scale 40k. Good opportunity to make everyone buy at least one new army. I wonder if that was the logic of basing Legions Imperialis on 2nd edition Space Marine rather than Epic Armageddon, there was a point where Epic was close to being a 3rd main system, and that was the Space Marine era. They just ran out of runway in terms of new stuff to release and the rules changes for a big revamp were poorly received (also how Epic Armageddon was distributed and where specialist games were as a branch within GW at it's launch window really hamstrung epic as an offerings chances for a recovery)

[@tragicthegarnering3619]

And when they did make a new plastic kit the old models were still legal, I kind of wish they had just gone these are just true scale marines, rather than them being a completely new thing.

[@MrBombphoon]

I'm loving 4th. It's brilliant.

[@MadhouseMinis]

As someone who helps run a small business in probably a similarly sized niche, these are insanely interesting conversations. Keep it up!

[@genedean29]

I miss the starter boxes era a lot, because everything is overwhelming now. Like I actually kind of feel sorry for influencers, because they probably have soooo many gigantic boxes like Skaventide that they only show off a few models. I hope their friends get to enjoy those. And I think now, a very clear sign that AoS and 40K is hitting a wall with that price: really, is there a point in buying a book? That's not a selling point anymore, because if the game has a metawatch, it's not an incentive.

[@willsweetin2313]

Wasn’t gonna watch this vid, then I saw the MF framed pic and I was like…..These Lads know what’s up 🤓 Cheers from Canada

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

🇨🇦

[@Kalakmol]

I think I’ve just gotten to the point of ‘meh’ with GW games. There’s only so many times you can reinvent the wheel. It’s too far beyond my price point to keep replacing army books and rule books. I’ve moved on miniatures and games wise and I find I’m a lot happier because of it.

[@MrBanditoRazor]

I kind of wish GW was more like CGL when it comes to pricing

[@thomaswilliams5005]

Our FLGS puts out an ask on Tuesdays who wants what and how many?

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I’m trying to figure out if I’d be more interested in AoS 4th if The Old World wasn’t out. I’m actually buying AoS models to use for TOW, so GW is still making sales of AoS products, just not for AoS. The only aspect of AoS that I’m really considering is Spearhead. Honestly, without Spearhead and the Old World crossover, I’d probably still have no interest in AoS products. Except, perhaps as hobby projects.

[@sebastiencarrieres8825]

As now it's easy to get converter mouvement tray, I guess it's possible to build an army for ToW and still be able to use it for AoS. But honestly, I'm like you and am eyeing AoS sculpt for ToW.

[@Hazebusterz]

Well AoS 4 is by far the superior game fun wise.

[@kevoreilly6557]

@@Hazebusterzno… really isn’t ; different definition of fun

[@Hazebusterz]

@@kevoreilly6557 Your opinion is wrong :)

[@alphabromega859]

@@Hazebusterz least annoying aos player

[@asuranshadow9491]

Still baffles me why the launch boxes are never starter sets

[@TheBunnan]

If the store owner is busy constantly managing the GW hype train, and managing the risks in that.... then where they get the time to think about other games? Can they also have time to grow Warlord or Firelock games community? These smaller game companies that put effort into their starter boxes and community growth. Let alone miniature manufacturers like Wargames Atlantic or rules publishing companies that don't have a starter set/ easy on ramp? GW sucks ALL the oxygen out of the room.

[@euansmith3699]

What is Jordan's website? My old ears aren't good enough to make it out.

[@jonathandavid6631]

Why is GW so adverse to selling RPG style boxes like Blackstone Fortress? (Cursed City was a mess and felt slapped together, gameplay-wise, so I'm ignoring that one.) Do these boxes not sell well? I know I'd be buying every box if they had the quality of BF.

[@redsven7624]

I was at the start of the year hyped for AoS 4, during the launch cycle lost interest. Was still tempted on release but 3 year cycle means if I am not going to play anytime soon for me the edition is dead

[@redsven7624]

Side note objectively I think Skaventide would be their best starter offer but it's not a starter

[@Drunkninja101]

I've owned a hobby shop for 14 years now. I'm honestly tired of Games Workshop and the way they do business

[@alexwork2612]

I believe that the return of The Old World has effected AoS. I personally am not interested in AoS anymore. It's just not that good a system.

[@piotrjeske4599]

Well that is nice, if you had fun. But if you played bretonia and the last two edition of WFB were infantry brick central, you had 0 fun, but had yo buy books and wait for FAQ/maybe this time GW will fix my dudes, followed by end times (more books) and you having hope that this time GW will fix your faction, it was not fun to get AoS. And it got really less fun when bretonians went legend/index coupled with GW making joke in the "haha the knights in new warhammer are delussional zombis" .

[@CyrodiilCome]

Amen

[@bryanvestal3923]

Also my GW guy referred to this edition of AOS as a slow burn product. Is he right? Who knows.😊

[@earnestwanderer2471]

One more dopey comment and I’m done, I swear... I grew up hanging out in game stores. To the absolute best of my ability, I will ONLY buy products that I can get from a brick&mortar. I have a budget for my game addiction, so every cent I spend online is a penny that doesn’t go to support the FLGS. But, sadly I think, I’m in a shrinking minority in that attitude. So many people seem to view the FLGS as a showroom. Go into the store to get a hands on look at the products, then go online to get it for the lowest price.

[@KrullMaestaren]

My personal experience with FLGStores is that they often Ave too many of the most generic, boring boxes but often lack specialized units and heroes etc. You want 10 more assault marines, no problem. You want Deathwing Knights, forget it. :/

[@maephiharuna]

The core thing for me is that AoS feels like a skirmish game, not an army game. Its hard to get fellow wargame players into it, and spearhead exacerbates that feel. 40k has almost no competition for a sci-fi wargame. Plenty of competition in the skirmish sphere, which is why its skirmish versions don't do quite as well. But there is a ton of AoS scale games out there competing with each other. AoS doesn't really have anything that makes it stand out compared to Conquest, A Song of Ice and Fire, Frostgrave, and frankly D&D all compete in the same sphere. 40k is unique, AoS feels like more of the same in a pile of fantasy tolkien esque stuff and the gameplay doesn't distinguish it enough above the crowd outside of the Warhammer name attached keeping it in stock in stores where other systems might not be.

[@kaldorf]

GW going public has kinda forced the constant growth inventing new revenue streams that investors want to see. To me wargaming is a slow burn building your community. I think GW pushing the risk to their distributors is shameful.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I mean they’ve been public since ‘91. They’ve always had steady LFL growth as a goal!

[@MortalAgenda]

My gut feeling is that it’s a flop but I thought the same about Dominion and it was their ‘biggest fantasy launch ever’, a title that TOW didn’t manage to claim despite my hopes. Best off ignoring Glupp Shitto commenters (including me lol) until we have confirmation on its success from investor reports or someone high up at GW on the record. Until then this is all vibes and cognitive bias.

[@jonmattison3939]

Ignoring all the other games out there from other designers and publishers; Games Workshop alone, seems like they market/release product as if each of their customers only plays 1 of their games: 40k, AoS, Warcry, Kill Team, Necromunda, Heresy, etc... So the overwhelming-ness to us as customers who are interested in multiple games by GW? Truely, a firehose of product and FOMO. Warcry is fun. I'd like Kill Team to be different. I've been enjoying Spearhead. But at the end of the day my time/energy/budget only goes so far; so I have chosen to full on ignore Warcry, Kill Team, AoS, Necromunda and only focus on 40k/Combat Patrol and Spearhead. Even then, I've allowed myself to pursue multiple 40k factions and struggle to pretend to keep up with it all. Collect, build, paint... the never ending cycle.

[@jonmattison3939]

At my FLGS, often, I've heard of some impending GW announcement before my FLGS has, and my guy keeps a list for several of us customers, so I can reach out and say "Hey, I hear this is on the horizon, I'm interested in the X, Y and Z..." just so he can start his 'soft list' as you called it. It's back to my budget is limited and so since I get a pre-order discount from my FLGS AND I want to support my FLGS, I choose to get in on these pre-releases; and not hope and pray that my FLGS will be able to get X, Y or Z next month due to scarcity and/or limited allocations through their distributor.

[@jonmattison3939]

As I mentioned before, I'm too invested into 40k et al to want to invest in AoS at all; that said, the Spearhead game format is appealing. I figured I could come up with my own terrain so I picked up the game board and cards off eBay for a reasonable price. As for Leviathan, I wanted both armies, unfortunately, whatever I paid for it, the hard bound rulebook just takes up space on my book shelf. Between free core rules and all the free PDF indexes and digital sources for final codexes (and rules changes)... I don't think I will ever thumb through my 10th edition rulebook.

[@5p3cu10]

Skaventide hasnt done great in our circle. AoS in general has a few regular players but overall its quiet. Most folk are fed up of the high speed hamster wheel. I am personally fed up of GW. I usually play A Song of Ice and Fire & Dropzone Commander

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I wasn’t happy with GW for dropping Fantasy... and a big part of the disappointment was the AoS, at first, wasn’t a very good game. Yes, the community stepped in and created a points system even before GW did. And yes, GW fixed the silly four page rule system pretty fast. But I think the “concept” of AoS was so very different from Fantasy that it really exacerbated the bad feelings from the “death” of the earlier game.

[@tragicthegarnering3619]

I have a trauma response to AOS that would prevent me from enjoying the game.

[@elphiefanful]

@@tragicthegarnering3619 Have you thought about not having your entire personality revolve around some toys?

[@tragicthegarnering3619]

@@elphiefanful wow nice, good job.

[@elphiefanful]

@@tragicthegarnering3619 But have you though?

[@Cael551]

@@elphiefanful Have you thought about managing your full blown sociopathy and actually becoming a functional adult?

[@granttennis]

The first edition of AoS was… a poor game. Very little fun, utterly unbalanced, very shallow. It got better as the model range was increased. Second edition making heavier use of points and matched play was the turning point, and third edition tied everything into an actually good game. Fourth is excellent. Thing is, Stormcast and Skaven are a bad choice of box contents. Slaves to Darkness and Cities of Sigmar would have shifted far more boxes.

[@shinankoku2]

Comments

[@goforitpainting]

C🐭🐭L

[@scepteredisle]

It's crazy that GW actually think Stormcast are popular let alone that they'd somehow sell MORE Stormcast by being creepy and making half the Stormcast female. So weird. Of course the box failed.

[@scatterthewinds3126]

Why play aos when TOW is available?

[@crann777]

Because not everybody enjoys watching rectangles hump in the middle of the table.

[@josephjustice4553]

Everything I’ve heard and seen about the launch points to a flop.

[@elphiefanful]

Then you need to broaden your horizons. It's been a massive success in Japan, selling out completely in two days. It's done extremely well in the UK and reasonably in murica'. Only in eastern europe does it seem to have stalled.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

So I think differentiating the box and the game are important. By all game metrics, and through the release of free materials, playing 4E and reinvigorating the community already playing it has gone spectacularly well (and the redesign has been fantastic). It’s important to separate the two streams I think here because one is about a specific product and the other is about the game design underneath it.

[@bosscrloy]

@@elphiefanful It's pretty telling that the supposedly limited stock of Skaventide on the GW store is still there. 23237 boxes with the tokens were set aside as the first of the stock to be sold and it's still all there. Wayland and Element, the two largest 3rd party retailers in the UK, still haven't sold through their original allocation (a mate of mine works up at Element and they have entire shelves of it not moving). In general AOS does better in the US than it does anywhere in Europe. Europe and the UK were always WHFB countries and Fantasy for many people never really died. AOS managed to capture the US market better than Fantasy ever did but it's always struggled over the pond. Another friend of mine works for the biggest Spanish retailer and Skaventide has absolutely flopped across the country. Like Ash said above though it's important to differentiate the box and the game. AOS4 has been well received by people and has gotten more new people into it, but many of those people are not picking up the fancy launch box.

[@bosscrloy]

@@elphiefanful It's pretty telling that the supposedly limited stock of Skaventide on the GW store is still there. 23237 boxes with the tokens were set aside as the first of the stock to be sold and it's still all there. Wayland and Element, the two biggest independent retailers in the UK, still haven't sold through their original stock either. I have a mate who works at Element and they shelves of Skaventide just not moving. Another friend of mine works for the biggest Spanish chain in the country and Skaventide has flopped completely. They barely sold any across the entire country. AOS overall has never done particularly well in Europe which was always more into Fantasy than places like the US. And Fantasy for many of these countries never really died. AOS has done better in NA than it has across the pond and has been the successful fantasy franchise that GW wanted it to be in the largest mini wargaming market. Like Ash said above though, it's important to divorce the box from the game itself. AOS4 has absolutely gotten more new people into it and has been recieved well, but those new people are not buying the box.

[@Strange8ractor]

@@elphiefanfulthis is incorrect. If it had sold well, and sold well in America, liquidators would not be already selling it on Amazon for $200. That means that GW is unloading their supply to the liquidation companies. Doesn’t mean the game is a failure, but the Skaventide box is a failure by any metric, particularly the metrics that GW uses to measure their own success.

[@Digitalfiendscom]

The pace of releases over the last couple of years has been too much - too many systems, too much churn. I like Kill Team, *love* Legions Imperialis & Necromunda & 30K, enjoy 40k, and want to enjoy AoS (bought Skaventide), but the releases are just too fast now. The rules churn and FAQs/fixes for poorly written, lazy codexes plus the general subscription model that GW have adopted for 40K is just off-putting. Definitely finding myself starting to pull back from GW.