Guide Cameras for Multistar Guiding, It's Revolutionary

Multi Star Guiding has really improved guiding accuracy. To the point I would call it a revolution in guiding if you have the right camera. If you are still using an old camera then you will not see much of an improvement. In this video I will give my recommendations on which one to pick.
Here is the video about all those 4/3 sensors that Rob Trek and I did.
• New Sensors for m4/3 w...

[@sabyasachibanerjee124]

I have started understanding and enjoying the technological explanations You provide.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

That's great.

[@jiffijoff9780]

Great video and visual explanation of the two different visual trains and frequencies (300s lights vs. 2-4s guides). 💪👍

[@Mainuh]

I am really happy I watched this video a couple months ago. I got first light last night with an all brand new AP system consisting of ZWO FF65 APO, ZWO AM3 mount & base, ZWO EAF, ASIAir Plus 256, ASI 533MC pro main and ASI 178mm for guiding (based on your recommendation). I had only done AP prviously with Ioptron skyguider pro and & DSLR recently and Meade LX-200 8" SCT with Pentax K-1000 film camera piggybacked in the 90's. But the ASIAir plus is a game changer and the multi guiding right out of the box for a noob was flawless! I managed .29" RA, .30" DEC and .41" Total during autoguiding. I used dithering as well and super pleased with the results. I wondered about spending twice as much for the 178mm as the 120mm mini but it was so worth it! Thanks again for this awesome video!

[@bobbeanbags]

Awesome explanation! Really appreciated!

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

You're very welcome!

[@dougcooper4917]

Excellent Video! Very Technical.

[@sombienpatrick2658]

Rewatched this video, because I was thinking about getting the ASI2600 Duo and remembered you spoke about the future of camera having a section for just guiding 😲

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Prophetic wasn’t I :)

[@sombienpatrick2658]

Indeed you were my good man 🧐 hope your health improves 👍🏾@@TheNarrowbandChannel

[@testboga5991]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel not on sensor, though...

[@AstroWorldTV]

Great Vid! MultiStar Guiding is a gamechanger!

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Couldn't agree more!

[@guille5564]

Great video! exactly what I was looking for. How bad would it be to use a color guide camera with a short focal lenght guide scope (lests say the SV165 Mini Guider Scope 30mm/120mm F4) ? My main scope for deep sky would be a skywatcher 72ED on an HEQ5 pro. I am quite on a budget and I would love to use my guide camera as a planetary camera as well. Thank you!

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

You get 4x less resolution so you have to multiply your pixel scale by 4

[@nikivan]

Finding a guide star when imaging with large focal lengths could be a challenge. Try imaging M51 with C9.25" and OAG and you'll see what I am talking about. 174MM is the only camera I have that works for that. So, I think the most important feature of a guide cam is the pixel size. For small guide scopes, like the ZWO 30mm scope, any camera will do.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Do you have the larger OAG? Also you can bin the pixels in the 178 to make the larger. 290 as well but then you do not have many left.

[@jrjankowski2224]

Let me start by saying I enjoyed finding someone in a video capable of providing useful details on a astrophotography subject matter. That said, what is your take on the QHY 5III178 camera? It's monochrome and a larger senor, it's just mini like the 290.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Its a good choice i think.

[@Daniel_DP83]

What do you think about guiding camera like the "ASI 2600 MC DUO Color" it has a main-sensor and one for guiding (2in1 system). i think in future there will be get more of these.

[@amrindersingh7847]

Good explanation. I’m debating between 174 and 178 to use with my zwo OAG (smaller prism) on Takahashi TSA 120 (without flattener). Currently 120mm mini can barely find one star and I see it causing small star tails even at 30 seconds exposure. Saw lot of ppl recommending 174 for larger sensor size. Have you used your 178 with smaller OAG at 1000mm fl? Also I run Asiair pro through my phone. Is there a binning option in Asiair for guidescope to use with 178 or 174 would be better without binning?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Go with the 178 and just bin 2x2. Also the 120 is a lot less sensitive compared to the 178 or the 174.

[@amrindersingh7847]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel Thanks. Have you tried color cameras for guiding. Asi482mc specs look interesting compared to 178. I was hoping the guide camera to act as occasional planetary and lunar (mosaic) camera as well. I know color cameras are not as sensitive but the pixel and sensor size on 482 looks interesting.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@amrindersingh7847 I have not but its IR sensitivity is certainly a reason to give it a go. I think that might work or you if you need something for planetary.

[@deep_space_dave]

Hey this was just the video I was looking for! I have the iOptron iGuider and for some reason it guides so much better than my OAG setup with ASI174 (6 micron pixels!) at long focal lengths! I mean I constantly get 0.5 RMS arcsecond which is crazy! But I wanted to push the envelope and I thought about if I had a smaller pixel size, I could guide with longer focal lengths minus any scope flexure. I am happy to inform you that ZWO has released the ASI678MC which is a upgraded ASI178! This thing has 2 micron pixels and QHD resolution!

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

The only problem with that camera though is that it is a OSC. And so it has 1/3 the resolution of a mono version.

[@deep_space_dave]

​@@TheNarrowbandChannel Yes you are right, and it is actually 1/4th the resolution because of the 2 green pixels. Crap somehow I didn't factor that! But on the bright side, I have decided to repurpose it for my C6 Hyperstar. Now I can get a 4x zoom on my HyperStar going from 3.76 px to 2px. Now I can image galaxies at F2 😁

[@testboga5991]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel why? Can't the guiding just be based off non-debayered data? Stars have a continuous spectrum, after all.

[@alfredobeltran611]

Well, six months ago I purchased an ASI462MC camera (2.9 micron pixels) for both planetary and guiding. I was doubting about its performance for guiding, but it´s very accurate in spite of having a color sensor. I use it with a Stellarvue F60M3 finder scope (225 mm focal length) to guide a CEM60 carrying a C9.25 EdgeHD at f10 (2350 mm) or f2.3 with hyperstar lens (540 mm). Camera is an ASI071MC Pro (4.78 micron pixels). Typically I use 2 seconds with multi-star guiding. The quantum efficiency of current color sensors allows to use them for guiding. With the same guide scope this camera shows many more stars in a 2 second exposure than the SSAG I previously owned in 5 seconds. I finally made the choice between the ASI462MC and the ASI174MM mini (big pixels as you mention). I don't regret the decision. I guess the 462 along with the multi star guiding feature of PHD contributed both to improve my guiding. And can be used as a planetary imaging camera as well.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

That camera has some crazy low read noise stats. A mono version would be truly killer. I wonder how a 482 would perform. It is more sensitive in the Infrared spectrum so a mono version could be tied with an infrared filter to cut through bad seeing better. If you have seen RoRos video he demonstrated that it does help. It has a larger sensor to boot with good sized pixels.

[@cryptojihadi265]

I've had great luck with the 462mc for guiding my TEC 160FL as well.

[@Spaced_Out_Bill]

@alfredobeltran611 Are you using a NIR filter with your 462 while guiding? I have the same camera on a SVbony 60mm x 240mm and the stars are fuzzy with halos around them. I'm wondering if a NIR filter would help? It's been too cloudy to try.

[@alfredobeltran611]

@@Spaced_Out_Bill Yes, I’m using the same UV/IR filter that I use for planetary imaging. Pinpoint stars for guiding

[@psyire9913]

I use this camera with a IR850 filter for guiding. Works awesome 😊

[@user-er7vz9xd8x]

I enjoyed your vid. U explained things in a very logical manor. I will/can learn much from U. Question: Who/What is the best source of anything and all-things astropho- tography? Book, DVD, KZbin (of course, you), ot other. Thank U much.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Mainly youtube is a good source but there are some great books. They get deep into the details of the hobby.

[@Mainuh]

Great video, thanks! New subscriber.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Awesome, thank you!

[@melgigg]

The 178mm is a brilliant camera for lunar imaging

[@astrodad-simonb277]

Evening just seen your dual set up - I’m looking at adding my Esprit 120 and 65 mm quad together - any recommendations for a dual clamping system like yours ? Thanks simon

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

I made mine and a few other but have since sold all of them. There is one other company that makes them. Theirs is pretty heavy though.

[@thomasheatherington357]

If investing in the 178mm as a guiding camera, is the choice of guidescope also an important consideration? If so, any suggestions from your experience? Thanks much.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Basically get the pixel size and focal length to match. Here is a handy tool to calculate it. astronomy.tools/calculators/guidescope_suitability

[@thomasheatherington357]

I have an original Williams Optics 50mm guide scope (200mmFL). I have read that sometimes guide scopes are challenged to get to focus with a camera like this. Just curious what guide scope you've used with this camera as a reference, if you are willing to share. Thanks much.

[@donnytadlock4593]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel The ratio I get using the 178MM and my current set up would be 1.86 to 2.06 Is that close enough?

[@MrGp3po]

Thanks Ferris! ;)

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

A movie i need to get around to watching one of these days.

[@geomatrix5452]

Great information video! Is the Starfield Optics 60mm Guide Scope (SFG-60GII) a good guide scope?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

60mm would be good if you have a larger scope. I myself though have never used one of those. Have a link to it for me to check out? What is the rest of your rig like?

[@geomatrix5452]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel Thanks for the reply... I just got my Ioptron GEM45 set up and have been learning the ZWO ASIair Plus. Still don't have a "main scope" yet... Looks like I'm building my rig backwards! 😂 But I'm actually going from the Star Adventurer Pro to a larger rig. Right now I'll be using my mirrorless camera. Slowly but surely I'll get to that big scope and dedicated camera!

[@geomatrix5452]

I forgot to mention I also got the ASI 178mm for a guide camera.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@geomatrix5452 Awesome. It is just about the best guide camera today. There are some new ones coming out though that will give it a run for its money. We will see.

[@robbyvillabona]

Would you recommend this for a Sky Adventurer-based set-up? I imagine bigger camera means more weight, though the increased accuracy is tempting. I'm getting ready to buy my first tracker for my E-M1 II + 100-400 and going with the EQ-modded AZ-GTi.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

The wonderful thing about the 178mm is that it can also be used for other things later on. Solar, Lunar and planetary photography and even DSO. I know I first imaging I did with narrowband filters was with my 178MM. For the Sky adventure, it's such a small and wide field setup you could use a 120mm and that is actually what I use mine on. But the 178mm will future proof your equipment. Does that help?

[@robbyvillabona]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel it helped, yes. Helped give me more to think about whether I want to go down the narrowband imaging rabbit hole! 😂

[@jeffslade1892]

The problem I found with an Alt-Az goto is they move in step function, left-right, up-down. Stepper motors and tick-tock, quite likely to make a step during a long exposure. Whilst this is fine for visual observation, not ideal with a camera. My Celestron SLT goto does this, Alt-Az have to move this way. Yes they can be EQ mounted but they still operate the motors the same way; jerky. The Star-Adventurer, mounted on a wedge only has one driven axis and moves more smoothly. It can be guided but only in the one axis. Furthermore it can control the camera shutter which seems to prevent it making guide corrections during exposure. An EQ is a step up in price and weight, they do move more smoothly when tracking but still beware of a correction during a long exposure. The SLT (which is not dissimilar to the All-Star) I can pick up with one hand, despite stripping it apart and rebuilding it, it still moves like a clockwork toy. Its goto works fairly well, it's good for roving around the sky with only a camera mounted but I cannot make long exposures with it. If I can get the Star-Sense to work again it is very fast to set up, plonk it down, run auto-align and it's done. I've been through the Alt-Az thing, if you want to track and /or guide, you need a GEM EQ. The AVX is new toy, it does what an EQ should. I'm not made of money, it's not high-end. The Star -Sense (plate solving) is supposed to work with it but they're not playing nicely; there are other methods to align and calibrate that don't involve me throwing toys out of the pram. Guide cam is a T7C, essentially a knock-off of a ZWO (ZWOASI120MC). Cheaper, works. Ok it's colour but also works for images. Imo it does need a CLS-CCD filter added. Linkypoo write up here by Dr Steve Wainwright FRAS - x-bit-astro-imaging.blogspot.com/2018/05/first-light-testing-of-svbony-version.html (I picked that because he used a newt on an AVX) and here - x-bit-astro-imaging.blogspot.com/2018/05/deep-sky-with-svbony-t7-camera-astrodmx.html

[@robbyvillabona]

@@jeffslade1892 hi Jeff! Portability is my primary concern now. Id like to be able to take the mount on road trips and on planes. The AZ-GTi on a wedge (like the one on the Star Adventurer) with the EQ-modded firmware gives me exactly that. It's better than the Star Adventurer in that with the modded firmware it becomes an equatorial mount with GOTO function and the ability for DEC guiding. Kind of a pain to set up compared to the Star Adventurer (no built-in polar scope) but there are workarounds. Thanks for the info!

[@jeffslade1892]

@@robbyvillabona The SLT can be wedge mounted, there is a EQ menu for it, it's already modded as it were. But it's a bit of waste of milk. The Star Adventurer, and mine is an old one, is portable and easy to set up. It just needs to be dead level and polar aligned. But it is not goto - you have to point the camera at the object. Like an EQ if you have set your latitude and altitude compensation right it should track east-west without bothering north-south. Problem with Alt-Az steps is you're kinda limited to 2-10 seconds exposure before you get tails. Portable do work for casual shots, wide field, and moon - because the moon is really bright , short exposures. There are a few dark sky sites here, folks do take their big EQs and Dobs out to them. My rig relies on mains power, wifi, and trailing cables to bring controls indoors; battery pack doesn't hold enough charge.

[@Mainuh]

Can this be done via ASI Air Plus or only using PHD? About to purchase the ASIAir plus and a guide camera so don’t want to spend more on another guide camera if the AsiAir plus can’t do multi star guiding.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Asiair can do multiple star guiding. Its been able to do it for two years now.

[@efx245precor3]

Very important message. Larger sensor for MSG.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Yes and I am the only person saying it too. lol

[@mhe0815]

I wonder whether the new ZWO 220 Mini would be good for multistar guiding?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

its larger field of view would certainly help but I still give the 178mm top had even today. Always get a MM version for guiding.

[@matadorbeagles1120]

I thought for multi-star guiding the phd2 selected 12 stars, but only used 9. Am I mistaken?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

I do not use PHD2 at any rate though having the selection of stars spread out across a larger section of sky will have the same affect of creating a better average of the seeing conditions.

[@jster91]

What about the new ASI220 Mini? Similar sensor size to the 178. Fewer, but larger pixels. Great QE and super low read noise.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

I made this quite a while ago. I could definitely recommend that one as well but for guid scopes with a longer FL. For the short 30mm f4 guid scopes I would still push the 178.

[@jster91]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel I may end up with a 200mm FL guide scope. Looking at some 60mm aperture options.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@jster91 Then the 220mm is the way to go.

[@pippinjg]

My guy , I love the hat !!!!! super fresh

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Thanks. It is one of my favs.

[@RoryM07]

Best guide camera for a WO Z73 for use with DSO?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

A short Fl scope like the 120mm FL f4 you see in the video. Definitely get a Mono camera. The ZWO 178mm or the 220mm are good options.

[@RoryM07]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel awesome thanks for the reply! I’m just getting into AP so not fully clued up yet, but I had thought these would be the right choice. Thanks and love the channel!

[@michaelm.7389]

In your third segment you mention you don't have the 178mm because it isn't worth the money but later you recommend the ZWO178mm ?? Can you clarify please ? Thanks......Mike

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

First statement i meant the 174mm. It was a mistake on my part that i missed.

[@michaelm.7389]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel ...Thanks, just wanted to make sure since I went ahead and ordered the 178.....lol

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@michaelm.7389 Y I should remake this video. And I actually will to now that the 220mm is out. That way I can include it in my comparison. The 178 is still my choice though.

[@stevenv9726]

In mid-2023, is the 178 still the recommended guide camera? What is your recommended guide scope? Thanks, great content, subscribed.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Hi Steven. Yes i still recommend this over any other. The 220mm is also a great one but only if you have a larger guid scope.

[@stevenv9726]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel Thanks. Guide scope recommendations with the 178?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@stevenv9726 Any of the small 30mm f4 guid scopes are great for main imaging focal lengths bellow 600mm.

[@andreoliver5927]

I'm trying narrow band imaging. My area is light pollution central.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

If you are starting out I would recommend some 7nm filters or something with a band pass of that amount. Later on though you can trade them in for some narrow 3.5nm filters. It will make you feel like you are at a dark sky sight out west.

[@JohnJordache]

Total noob here : hello! 👋🏻 - building my first rig - I have a RedCat 51 with a 32mm WO Uniguide scope mounted on. Will be using a Fuji mirrorless camera with an APSC sensor. Computer will be an M1 Mac. Mount - still trying to decide between a Sky Watcher GTI or the iOptron small loads counter parts 😓🤦🏻‍♂️😳. But I m totally lost for the right mist fitted GUIDE CAMERA for this rig based on APSC mirrorless crop sensor with the RedCat 51 🫤🧐😵‍💫! Would appreciate your input! Regardless, thank you for your valuable content! 🙌🏻

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Ignore crop levels. They mean nothing in astrophotography.

[@andreoliver5927]

Thank you. I almost bought the wrong camera.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Glad I could help.

[@skye7690]

My guiding stars always look soft and not sharp, are you seeing that. (ASIAIR)

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

I actually like them slightly soft. The algorithm actually handles it better. That is one reason you won't see any apo guid scopes.

[@skye7690]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel Oh thank you for that. Was thinking i might have to invest in a better Guidescope but sounds like i don’t need to. ( I have a WO 50mm and WO 32mb, but using 50mm for better results).

[@stxe34]

you missed the e out of guide in your title

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

Thanks. I am always missing that one it seams.

[@tempusfugit6820]

3:18 "the camera I don't have; the 178MM." 5:05 "this camera is the best for guiding: the 178MM" (while holding the camera) You need to be consistent throughout the video. So, do you have the camera or not? How can I believe what you are saying?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

OH Dear. I see the issue. So what I was talking about at 3:18 is the 174MM not the 178MM. The 178MM I have. I might have to redo this video then. And yes I have two 178MM cameras. One is the planetary that I guid with the other is the Cooled or Pro version I use on small galaxies.

[@tempusfugit6820]

@@TheNarrowbandChannel or type over the error. So what is the best camera to use with either a 120mm or a 200mm guide scope? I thought phd2 had a limited number of stars it could detect. Is this correct?

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

@@tempusfugit6820 PHD2 finds between 9 to 12 stars. The limit is in fact 12 as of the last build. The important thing is the wider field of view but still having the resolution of each star. That is why I recommend the 178. It has a larger chip and so can sample stars with good resolution across a larger section of sky.

[@royhornyak8596]

I am new to astronomy, and trying to watch this video, was, at the least painful! You keep waffeling on about tangental things. Slow down and concentrate on what I need to know, not everything that you know.

[@TheNarrowbandChannel]

This is a pretty basic video. Astro is tuff. Expect to learn a lot in it.

[@MrSummitville]

​@@TheNarrowbandChannelThis video was perfect ...

[@greenman7661]

"im new to astronomy but im going to criticise the expert" 😂 This was a brilliant video - expolored really clearly the options with great recommendations - and validated as to why. i've had some challenges with 120 for guiding (especially in city) and just picked up a low priced second hadn't 178mm based on this advice. many thanks.

[@jesuschrist2284]

Maybe look elsewhere rather than harshly criticise someone making fantastic videos for others' benefit?