Halo Moving To Unreal Engine 5... So What's Wrong With Slipspace?

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[@dr.sivavignesh664]

Their engine lacked key features such as stuttering and picture perfect slideshow performance.

[@IwinMahWay]

Let's hope they learn from the finals as it's also a UE game

[@cocopuffz604]

​@@IwinMahWayyes. That game performs well at even high /ultra. Here hoping they can match that kind of optimized performance

[@ifstatementifstatement2704]

LOL indeed. They really need to improve UE or devs need to start respecting its limitations.

[@Reavalia]

Ditching their proprietary engine makes sense for -343i- Halo Studios, because finding _contractors_ capable of producing slop with UE5 is faster. 🤡

[@AdamMi1]

And cheaper!

[@UltKaizoku]

Was the Slipspace engine an actual issue, or was it the fact MS insisting on contractors revolving every 18mo so that no institutional knowledge is ever built?

[@megan_alnico]

This has got to be the reason for the regression in the character models between 5 and Infinite. The expectation that the entries in a franchise build on each other requires the people working on it learn from past mistakes.

[@deathtrooper2048]

​@@megan_alnicoIt's an artistic shift.

[@wmoule]

I guess you didn't watch the video.. They mention that.

[@SoloEmpireOfficial]

Good point

[@UltKaizoku]

@@wmoule I did. They mention it in so far that them moving to UE5 helps continue that policy... But if the policy didn't exist would they need UE5? Also, lack of institutional knowledge will remain an issue regardless of the engine. So maybe tech features improve, but game design will still struggle.

[@pgr3290]

Can't wait for that tasty console 800p 57FPS with random traversal stutter

[@Cheatman5]

HOW DARE YOU, forget compilation stutter too ;)

[@blaketindle4703]

Can’t wait to play Halo on Frame Drop Engine 5!

[@deathtrooper2048]

Slipspace ran better than most current UE games.

[@mejrikais6002]

And still look great

[@sirgriffinman]

Great is a bit of a stretch. It was meh visually ​@@mejrikais6002

[@thedude8128]

Co-op mode says hi👋

[@hupekyser]

another issue with inhouse tech, engineers come and go with varying levels of ability and approaches, and over time, things get really messy. legacy code isnt updated. patterns get bolted on to old patterns and things start to get really hacked, making the code harder and harder to maintain over a long period of time. nobody ends up knowing all the codebase well enough for major rework. The engine can get stuck under its own technical debt.

[@Potato_n_Tomato]

UE is a bandaid to the real issue of them relying on contractors. You also now run into the problem with UE on consoles that we've seen so many games having poor image quality/over reliance on FSR2. The reason why old Halo games look so good at the time was because it was built specifically for the console at 30fps For PC there's traversal stutters. So there's now the irony that Playstation 5 (Pro) is the best way to play Halo since its likely its coming to it.

[@deathtrooper2048]

343 is bring back the classic halo 30 fps with fps drops and 720p native resolution.

[@FKA_Skull]

“Best way to play Halo”, also, not capable of playing Halo.

[@brycebitetti1402]

​@@FKA_Skull The rumor is that they're considering launching whatever their next project is on PS5

[@Smitty_Werbenjagermanjenson]

Old lore nerd here - IIRC, Master Chief was an orphan and, thus, never had a surname. I do, however, like the joke referring to him as "John Halo" XD

[@IrrationalCharm]

i think it would be much better to stick with the in house engine. Sure initially it was hard to develop halo infinite. but the developers learn the tools and i highly doubt developing the next game with the same devs is harder than changing the WHOLE entire engine and redo everything from scratch. And now you also have to get new devs that know how to use UE. But the whole message of "we've learned from our mistakes" ive heard it already before. And i genuinely doubt the problem of Halo Infinite was the graphics.

[@SoulOnIce1983]

Me personally, i cant wait to play Halo on Stutter Engine 5

[@IndyMiraaga]

"Blam!" itself was a somewhat unstable engine by the time of Halo 5, at least imo. Never had a game crash or freeze more than that game did, regardless of console or even storage type (Xbox One VCR, One S, One X, internal storage, external SSD). The Theater mode being so broken in H5 seemed like an issue too, one that for whatever reason 343i could never actually fix. It was graphically impressive but also seemed to cut corners in other ways, especially with menus. You'd finish a match then go to switch modes, and you'd get a brief flash of the last moment of that previous match, fully rendered in 3D, probably eating up a ton of background resources which is likely what caused some of the issues with that title.

[@deathtrooper2048]

Halo 5 ran great in actual game modes for me, I only had issues in full custom game lobbies that went on for a long time. The biggest issue to me was heavy aim and the problem worse when you unlocked more cosmetics and reqs.

[@Fairyoftheeclipse]

I played the shot out-of Halo 5 and not once did it crash. I was even running KZbin along side while playing online and still had no issue with crashes. What the heck were you doing to you X1,X1S & X1X?

[@IndyMiraaga]

@@Fairyoftheeclipse Nothing... Kept them all clean, dusted regularly, even repasted my One X which made it substantially quieter. Still crashed frequently and was really the only game to do so. Even MW2019 never crashed on me, and was the most intensive game I ran by far.

[@kpsk8031]

It is pretty ridiculous/very telling that a studio that has the full support of Microsoft can't build and maintain a proprietary engine.

[@deathtrooper2048]

It's M$'s fault with how they handle contractors, nobody knows how to work with the engine and by the time they learn how to use it they get kicked out.

[@kpsk8031]

@@deathtrooper2048 you develop core technology inhouse... unless your company is filled with diversity hires. Then you need contractors from outside.

[@gingerale7729]

Not the fault of the studio, Microsoft causes it with their contract policies

[@codyo.4884]

It’s fucking INSANE how people are treating 343/MS with kid gloves, considering they’re stewarding one of the biggest, most influential, and potentially most profitable game franchises of all time. MS/343 should be running an operation at the level of Rockstar, Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, or Kojima Productions, to push out bleeding edge games on their own proprietary tech that people want to play for years after release. They could have an incredibly successful live service cash cow like they so desperately want, if they were willing to put in a genuine effort. Hell, GTAV will be old enough to vote soon, and to my understanding it’s still an absolute money printer because the underlying game is still great.

[@kpsk8031]

@@codyo.4884 true. 343 industries is the poster child for peak incompetence in this industry, a company only kept alive because of Microsoft's infinitely deep pockets.

[@bkillinm]

Hahah the jiggly hands really got me

[@Boss_Fight_Index_muki]

Silent Hill 2: James Sunderland's traversal-stutter-fest

[@megan_alnico]

John Spartin?! Is that a Demolition Man reference lol?

[@meko264]

What’s wrong with using id tech 7?

[@bnbnism]

It'd be great if they just wanted to make Doom Eternal with a Halo skin cuz it's made specifically for that type of game but for the direction halo is going it's not good they could tweak it tho to fit their needs but they'd just be in another Slipspace Engine scenario all over again

[@Mewsashi-cz9fo]

incompetency hire is the problem, not the engine.

[@namelessalias0007]

It's easier to hire people who have UE knowledge.

[@TheOldest]

id tech is always a great engine to work with. Machinegames and id don't rely on contractors for the bulk of their work so they have permanent staff that know how to use it. Microsoft and 343i/Halo Studios have historically used a lot of contractors, that includes the engineers that built Slipspace, and didn't keep them on hand. So throughout development when issues popped up that would normally not be as big an issue to solve if the original engineers were still on hand, it crippled development for Halo Infinite and even post launch content. UE5 and how it functions regarding development with multiple people and being easily accessible for anybody to learn will solve a lot of their development problems and drastically speed up production.

[@nonnygb]

It makes perfect business sense regardless of the known issues with the engine. Besides hiring / skills you also need to consider MS is now one of the biggest publishers in the world with multiple in-house teams working with this engine. That means they'll no doubt get a good deal with Epic and work closely with them (especially given their mutually beneficial stances elsewhere). They also have UE specialists in the Coalition and so the potential mindshare within the Xbox brand is huge. Instead of a sinking huge costs into retrofitting features into old engines they should be leveraging those exact features in UE and then working with Epic and their in-house teams to instead mitigate the known issues the engine presents. This simply raises all teams using UE and builds a greater relationship with Epic.

[@javebjorkman]

As someone who has 1 week of experience with Unreal, I can finally apply for a job at Halo Studios

[@Oh-vk2oe]

Switch to Unreal is reactionary. They lose what makes Halo what it is with Forge and the community features. It remains to be seen how they will port those. And all for a bit better lighting and not having to upskill some grads?

[@epicon6]

Not just for some lighting. If you’ve played Halo Infinite a good amount over the years you’d know how buggy and faulty it really is.

[@Oh-vk2oe]

@@epicon6 halo infinite is my most played game. It’s really not that buggy or faulty. It’s the best multiplayer shooter imo.

[@orionakd]

When Microsoft's employment rules didn't change 343 won't be able to repair the slipspace engine at a reasonable cost. Of course you can hope that 343's core staff, who will not be fired, will finally fix the slipspace engine, but that means that you won't see any new work from 343 for a long time. Or any progress at all. It's a dilemma, and it's clear that Pierre has chosen to focus on producing the product first.

[@deathtrooper2048]

​@@epicon6The only bugs I had in infinite was with the custom browser and desync.

[@TheBean87]

They can still have forge though so technically they lose nothing.

[@CAPS_Paranormal]

I remember how we (the gaming public) were very close to being appalled at our first look of Halo Infinite on the new hardware. Remember the comparisons that showed the previous Halo looking better than Infinite? I’m sure they worked really hard to bring Slipstream up to modern standards, and I understand them wanting to use their own tech., but with the large turnover numbers that are rumored to occur, proprietary tech serves as an extraordinary barrier as new employees are brought on to continue development of a title.

[@FullSweatTryhard]

*_So they burned the bridges with all the devs who know how to code for the slip space engine, and are struggling hiring devs that will work on their game. Going to an engine every Joe Shmoe dev knows how to use seems like the logical progression. Seems like a solution that is fixing the symptom but not the cause. This isn’t a good sign for Halo studios._*

[@AdithiaKusno]

Recruiting developers on UE5 will bring production cost down. Especially availability of custom libraries that they can modify to shorten production time. When you combine both time and cost it's no brainer to switch for UE5. Imagine playing Halo Remake with UE5 full ray tracing?

[@mchammer5592]

Halo: we chat with Todd Howard. we’re going with the creation engine baby!!! Unlimited planets and loading screens baby!!!!

[@someawesome7984]

It is stupid to take UE5 when you have idTech7.

[@alterbr33d]

Why can't Halo use idTech7?

[@EdwinSherwood]

Plenty of smaller developers with proprietary engines that made it work. The problem is the accountability with 343. If they can’t make it work then they need to be fired

[@ridiculous_gaming]

It took a while, but the current product is fun. The new product should be fantastic, I hope.The Coalition, with Gears, visually are amazing. I can't wait to see the young Marcus Fenix return.

[@DaveRamus-j2b]

Unreal Engine 5 has several advantages. One of them is that it’s cost-effective for game development companies. Another major benefit is that it can significantly enhance the graphics quality in games. The only thing developers need to focus on afterward is optimizing the game well

[@AnEyeRacky]

Well, we do live in a world, where all you have to do is change your name, and you are suddenly no longer what you once were... I certainly haven't forgotten that the majority of this team is still the same people making the games we have all complained about for the last few releases

[@blackflagqwerty]

I can see a big player purchasing the rug a large chunk of the industry is standing on (UE5) then cutting off or pricing out developers. Then the circle of inhouse developed engines will start again.

[@epicon6]

The current engine is pretty at times but it's so buggy that at times it looks like a ps2 game and crashes too often

[@deathtrooper2048]

Are you on PC?

[@epicon6]

@@deathtrooper2048Yeah

[@terryburns85]

One of the most interest talks I attended at GDC a few years back was the breakdown of a single frame on Halo Infinite: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4bMf4ihrpKcmK8 I’ve been a UE programmer for 14 years now, with six of those at Epic through 2010-16, I love the tech, but I appreciate the way proprietary engines help drive the industry forward with tech built for a platform. I’ve mixed feelings about this move

[@Lollikips]

This shit better stutter like CRAZY or I don't want it

[@urazoktay7940]

Amazing video. I thoroughly enjoyed it, thank you Digital Foundry.

[@dv2244]

Unreal Engine 5 has yet to produce a well optimized game. Halo infinite looks great and Ray Tracing is NOT needed. Legit every game with ray tracing has performance issues.

[@IwinMahWay]

The finals

[@dv2244]

@@IwinMahWay great game with terrible performance issues.

[@raikoh05]

this makes me wonder if the next xbox will have more than 8 cpu cores, if unreal engine is a priority?

[@basedr1ver]

This is entirely down to a general skill defecit across the industry today, along with an intentional homogenisation and centralisation to minimise cost, maximise consumption. Its quite sad to see really and doesn't bode well for future creativity.

[@mysterio7807]

I could play a whole game based on the Osiris Fireteam.

[@deathtrooper2048]

Halo 5??

[@mysterio7807]

@@deathtrooper2048 Fair, but I'd remove and replace MC parts.

[@nosouponhead]

As a Microsoft contractor, I assure you the issue is Microsoft here. None of the full time employees know how the engine works. Most of the time, they're not even doing work - they're just enjoying the insane company benefits.

[@Fairyoftheeclipse]

Why does it read like you're trying to say incompetent DEI hires who can't do their and we're hired in to make their ESG quotas go higher?

[@yyyhhh8481]

@@Fairyoftheeclipse what?

[@acardenasjr1340]

Unreal is quickly turning into the walmart of gaming engines.

[@deathsyth8888]

It's not like Microsoft owns another big prominent game engine they could use for their FPS games like Halo COUGH ID Tech 5 COUGH

[@yetanotheruser1989]

UE5 is going to be gaming's downfall

[@SecretPaints]

For PlayStation and Xbox maybe not Nintendo

[@CYCLOPS1994]

​@@SecretPaintsNintendo Swift doesn't have the power to support UE4-5.

[@AthleticHobo-br4qh]

promise?

[@_n8thagr8_63]

I would like to present a counterpoint. UE5 becoming a sort of standard engine could be a potential good thing. It could lead to a homogenization of future technology in gaming to have so many people using the same tool. UE5 and next iterations could be way ahead of the game with so many devs working on making it better

[@nolram]

More cooks don’t make a better soup. And UE itself is old, and is really showing it’s age.

[@Tuntira]

I kinda agree, it might help with the absolute monster development cycles!

[@Jerome-iwnl]

Unlimited stutters!

[@FKA_Skull]

Pretty sure Halo: Infinite was underwhelming because it was an Xbox One game thats development ran so long it got pushed to the next generation. If it had been planned for the current gen only from the start it would have been much better.

[@jasonsmith530]

Blam/slipspace was fine for its time

[@GoodlyPenguin]

Sure, but when the vast majority of the people using the engine are contractors that rotate every few weeks/months, nothing gets done, and nobody knows how to code for the damned thing. Case in point, 343i admitted to not knowing how to add/update playlists on Infinite's launch *because* of the Slipspace Engine. You had people wasting precious resources and time on an engine nobody cares for, and they didn't even bother to do a proper turnover with the developers and oncoming contractors. You get a clusterfuck of a project

[@balaam_7087]

Let’s transplant this logic into another scenario. I will buy a brand new car, a top rated machine that’s best in class. I’m going to park it outdoors, let the elements wear away at it, beat the heck out of it whenever I drive it and perform little to no maintenance. Inevitably, it will start having major problems both mechanically and cosmetically. My solution will be to do an engine swap, not address any of the other issues and continue to abuse it. All will be fine.

[@acardenasjr1340]

Engine swap, got it. Then, it won't be the car you had. Timing and feel, it'll be off.

[@ExoticSunE4]

Switching engines is good, but I’m not going to get in the hype, train.

[@resfan000]

Halo won’t even feel like halo anymore. Killed the franchise bye Microsoft

[@Munshin]

Cya. Fans like you ruin gaming for everyone so you and your lack of knowledge for game development won't be missed.

[@AJJJ-co2vd]

Unreal engine 5 games have not looked good on console honestly prefer unreal engine 4

[@Sisyphus_Must_Game.-tf3bq]

incompetents need hand holdy tools. That simple.

[@brucekhamp6859]

Everything.

[@FabuBrik]

Will the switch to unreal fix their inability to tell compelling stories?

[@vega7865]

Yess been waiting for this clip

Lol, 434 is a liability for HALO.

[@Fairyoftheeclipse]

O, don't you know that they rebranded so they're now diff-diff.

[@Degze]

Porting to ps5 would be easier

[@SeekerOfTux]

This truly is the darkest timeline for me. UE has been nothing but a blight on games and these issues have been plauging basically every new UE title I've touched: -Asset streaming / level traversal stutter -Shader compilation stutter duo to incomplete precompilation step -Forced TAA turning the image into a vaseline smear -Dithered textures thanks to forced TAA -Upscalers becoming a requirement for decent performance, even on a 7900XTX -Nanite literally being less efficient than traditional LOD techniques -Lighting and materials making UE titles look very samey -That typical unreal engine soapy movement in third person games -UE defaults to the far less efficient deferred rendering, instead of using a hybrid approach like clustered forward rendering I get that the engine is so popular cause its easy to use. But easier doesnt mean better. Nanite is the perfect example of this. It kills performance and fails to fix the issue it was supposed to address, asset streaming stutter. Even then, unlike LODs nanite is an automated process, which is why its going to be used regardless of the performance penalties. Basically UE allows developers to be lazy and cut corners. This paired with the gaming industry not being known for pushing clean code and you end up with the state of the current market. As a programmer myself that works in the medical field, I cant image relying on a half ass solution, just cause it sames me time. If you cant afford to make a big game and optimize it, then dont be so ambitious. I'm not saying every developer needs to be on the same tier as ID Software who are masters of their craft, I just want a game that runs well and has barely any stutters, while not forcing TAA down our throat.

[@illestcatnnebraska7331]

Halo on the Ps5 pro gonna be 🔥

[@TheBean87]

Keep hoping haha

[@pinitriste]

​@@TheBean87 just like people were "hoping" for indiana and doom? 😂

[@TheBean87]

@@pinitriste you mean games that were always going to be multiplat?

[@pinitriste]

@@TheBean87 indiana had an exclusive xbox logo previously.... grounded hi fi rush pentiment etc were also always meant to be multiplat? It may take a while but the whole slate is coming...

[@TheBean87]

@@pinitriste I’ll believe that as soon as I start taking tabloids as gospel

[@drifter2185]

Another engine won't help. When Bungie left, Halo died 🥲

[@TheBean87]

That’s why halo 4,5 and infinite were great games because bungie left before releasing terrible games like destiny.

[@drifter2185]

​@@TheBean87 😂😂😂 Great games, sure 🥴

[@TheBean87]

@@drifter2185 yeah isn’t the average rating for them 8.5?

[@Timmy51m]

John-117

[@coolmacatrain9434]

Fill your studio with DEI hires ... then use contractors because no one inhouse actually knows how to make games, they are just there to look good in photoshoots and conferences/video advertisements.

[@xFaytalx]

More like filling quotas to get that blackrock cash

[@illestcatnnebraska7331]

Phil killed Halo

[@FKA_Skull]

Brutal. Likely true.

[@KC-bi9jw]

This man just saw a black lady with purple hair and he has not slept in days! 😂

[@nolram]

hi grifter

[@Koozwad]

Reason? Extremely likely that there is just no one competent working there anymore, so they switch to UE because of all the fresh woke/DEI employees not knowing anything about the older engine and it not being as beginner-friendly. Bribery from EG may also have played a part.

[@Peter-wu4eh]

Every companies gonna move to EU5 . Because it's next gen engine, it's amazing.

[@JoPsyph]

Because everyone there is now a DEI hire who doesn't know what they're doing

[@nolram]

hi grifter

[@Fairyoftheeclipse]

​@nolram can't handle the truth DEI shill?

[@Angel-Azrael]

Halo Infinite graphics are atrocious. It's inexcusable. They had infinite budget and an extra full year to make the game.

[@xFaytalx]

UE5 because DEI hires dont know what theyre doing and if they want help with it, they need to ask Epic

[@nolram]

hi grifter

[@Victor4293]

mocking and making funny of halo fans... i dont see that on playstation side. all i see is wonders from sony when DF talks

[@clairearan505]

Wow, some folks in the comments are really eager to blame DEI for Halo not being "good" anymore. It's the shareholders on one side and the management on the other. The folks in the trenches doing the work to bring these worlds to life aren't your enemy, they're in the business, sometimes crunching for weeks at a time, many getting paid less than they're worth, and they're doing it because *they fell in love with the same game you did*. And what do you do? Spout racist insults! Incredible. If you complain about DEI making your games worse, I don't think you deserve a good Halo game.

[@nmmoussa]

While realistically the chance of this happening is slim, I hope Bethesda follows suit!

[@bnbnism]

Why, their engine sees gradual improvements and open world is notoriously bad in UE5 and they'd lose their mod community and theyd have to redo everything as Creation 2 is made for their type of games

[@nmmoussa]

@@bnbnism Every single release on this old engine has had almost the same bugs and limitations. What's keeping Bethesda's games alive is modders and fans purchasing their games (and now mods), but even modders cannot change the limitations and bugs deeply rooted within this engine that keep carrying over from one game to another, and Bethesda is seemingly happy to keep this engine alive and invest in updating it (through duct tapes apparently) rather than invest in another engine, as this also means they need to invest money and time to train their developers to learn this new engine. Also, open world games are notoriously bad in UE because many games made in this engine are not properly optimized. There are ways to avoid these stutters, but it seems the game devs didn't have the know-how, money, or time to implement them. It might be UE4 limitation as well specifically in shader compilation and asset-loading (the latter is harder to fix), but according to my understanding, UE5 will fix this issue. Maybe the downside is fan mods, but there are ways to mod UE games I presume.

[@Fairyoftheeclipse]

No, what they have accomplished with their updated engine is far to much to abandon for some generic engine that's been used a million times. It'll make everything worse not better.

[@nmmoussa]

@@Fairyoftheeclipse Whatever updates Bethesda have been working on have culminated in an engine barely capable of being on par with older open-world games, and way behind current gen games. There is a point at which you have to make a choice of whether you keep your old car or abandoning it for a new one, and Bethesda should have made this decision years ago. What modders are doing is basically spraying a coat of paint at an aging engine that is barely capable of holding itself together, and hardly matching new technological advances in game making! Wait till TE6 drops, and you will realize this will be true, but I am afraid it would be years late!