Handel - Messiah / Hallelujah Chorus + Presentation (recording of the Century : Otto Klemperer)

[@classicalmusicreference]

Album available // Handel: Messiah, HWV 56 by Otto Klemperer ***Listen to our latest mastering update 2024*** : bit.ly/48Xfv2m 🎧 Qobuz (Hi-Res) bit.ly/3TGccbs Tidal (Hi-Res) cutt.ly/vw93KUjy 🎧 Apple Music (Lossless) apple.co/4b4I2od Deezer (Hi-Fi) bit.ly/3Vt1ar0 🎧 Amazon Music (Hi-Res) amzn.to/3TGeCXe Spotify (mp3) spoti.fi/3TFHJcn 🎧 KZbin Music (mp4) bit.ly/48Xfv2m 🔊 Download the album (Hi-Res Master) cutt.ly/Classical-Music-Reference-Recording-Website-Messiah-Klemperer Georg Friedrich Haendel (1685-1759) - Messiah HWV 56 *Click to activate the English subtitles for the presentation* (00:00-03:00) Part One Sinfony (00:00) Comfort Ye, My People (04:32) Ev'ry Valley Shall Be Exalted (08:03) And The Glory Of The Lord (12:05) Thus Saith The Lord (15:26) But Who May Abide (17:17) And He Shall Purify (22:51) Behold, A Virgin Shall Conceive (25:42) O Thou That Tellest Good Tidings To Zion - Aria (26:11) O Thou That Tellest Good Tidings To Zion - Chorus (31:47) For Behold, Darkness Shall Cover The Earth (34:17) The People That Walked In Darkness (37:04) For Unto Us A Child Is Born (41:31) Pifa (46:09) There Were Shepherds Abiding In The Fields (50:10) Glory To God (51:45) Rejoice Greatly, O Daughter Of Zion (54:02) Then Shall The Eyes Of The Blind Be Open’d (59:03) He Shall Feed His Flock Like A Shepherd (59:32) His Yoke Is Easy, His Burthen Is Light (1:04:59) Part Two Behold The Lamb Of God (1:07:48) He Was Despised & Rejected Of Men (1:11:19) Surely, He Hath Borne Our Griefs (1:21:27) And With His Stripes We Are Healed (1:24:16) All We Like Sheep Have Gone Astray (1:26:07) All They That See Him, Laugh Him To Scorn (1:30:24) He Trusted In God (1:31:27) Accompagnato (1:34:11) Behold, & See If There Be Any Sorrow (1:35:56) Accompagnato (1:37:39) But Thou Did'st Not Leave His Soul In Hell (1:38:06) Lift Up Your Heads, O Ye Gates (1:41:02) The Lord Gave The Word (1:44:22) How Beautiful Are The Feet (1:45:33) Their Sound Is Gone Out Into All Lands (1:47:56) Why Do The Nations So Furiously Rage Together (1:49:32) Let Us Break Their Bonds Asunder (1:52:51) Recitative (1:54:50) Thou Shalt Break Them With A Rod Of Iron (1:55:06) Hallelujah Chorus (1:57:19) Part Three I Know That My Redeemer Liveth (2:01:38) Since By Man Came Death (2:07:48) Accompagnato (2:09:44) The Trumpet Shall Sound (2:10:16) Worthy Is The Lamb (2:14:36) Amen (2:18:22) Sopran : Elisabeth Schwarzkopf Alt : Grace Hoffman Tenor : Nicolai Gedda Bass : Jerome Hines Philharmonia Chorus Chorus Master : Wilhelm Pitz Philharmonia Orchestra Otto KLEMPERER Recorded in 1964 🔊 Join us with your phone on our WhatsApp fanpage (our latest album preview): cutt.ly/5eathESK 🔊 Find our entire catalog on Qobuz: cutt.ly/geathMhL 🔊 Discover our playlists on Spotify: cutt.ly/ceatjtlB ❤ Support us on Patreon www.patreon.com/cmrr/about LE MESSIE. Comme beaucoup de compositeurs de son temps, Haendel était un travailleur rapide, mais peu de ses partitions le montrent autant que celle du Messie, qui a été couchée sur papier en seulement vingt-quatre jours, entre le 22 août et le 14 septembre 1741. Le Messie se distingue des autres oratorios de Haendel (sauf Israël en Égypte, de 1739) en ce que son texte a été tiré exclusivement de la Bible et du Psautier du Livre de Prière (Partie 1 consacrée à la venue du Messie ; Partie 2 aux souffrances du Christ ; Partie 3 à la Résurrection), et au temps de Haendel il était appelé " L'Oratorio Sacré ". Ce fait, associé au niveau constamment élevé de la musique elle-même, à la grande proportion de mouvements choraux, à la nature relativement simple des arias et à la simplicité de la partition, en a fait l'un des oratorios les plus fréquemment interprétés et les plus appréciés. Haendel, juste après avoir écrit le chœur " Alléluia " (1:57:19), aurait dit à son serviteur, les larmes aux yeux : " Je pensais bien avoir vu tout le ciel devant moi, et le grand Dieu lui-même ". A propos de "Hallelujah". Qu'est-ce qui vous vient à l'esprit quand vous entendez le terme "Hallelujah" ? Peut-être que cela vous rappelle le "Messie" de Haendel, un chef-d'oeuvre musical des années 1700 qui comporte le dramatique choeur d'Alléluia. Ou vous pensez peut-être à la célèbre chanson patriotique américaine "The Battle Hymn of the Republic", (kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHemZ2qId9SCoMU - chanson 20) aussi connue sous le nom de "Glory, Hallelujah". Vous avez sûrement entendu le mot "Alléluia" d'une source ou d'une autre. Peut-être même que vous l'utilisez de temps en temps. Mais savez-vous ce que cela signifie ? Alléluia - La translittération anglaise de l'expression hébraïque ha-lelu-Yahʹ, qui signifie "louez Jah" ou "louez Jah, vous autres". Jah - une forme poétique abrégée du nom de Dieu, Jéhovah. Elle apparaît dans la Bible plus de 50 fois, souvent dans l'expression "Alléluia". "Alléluia", explique un dictionnaire biblique, est un "mot utilisé par les auteurs de divers psaumes pour inviter tout le monde à se joindre à eux pour louer Jéhovah." En fait, un certain nombre de spécialistes de la Bible soulignent que "Alléluia" signifie "Louez Jah," [c'est-à-dire] Jéhovah. Georg Friedrich Haendel PLAYLIST (reference recordings) : kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJnInoueltWsiKM

[@Leibo07]

See also: Stefan Zweig, Decisive Moments in History, No. 8

[@peterhelbich3334]

danke from vienna austria where it all began. ....mozart, haydn, beethoven schubert, etc............

[@Fritz_Maisenbacher]

Strauss , Brahms , Bruckner , Mahler , Schönberg , Berg , Webern ......

[@victorchristy1706]

Actually if I correct this, the Accompagnato of the Trumpet Shall Sound starts at (2:09:44).

[@classicalmusicreference]

Oh yes thanks :-)

[@user-tb9vj3cj5j]

Those who never heard Messiah during their lifetime may not know what they were missing. Just marvellous and so touching even to the people who do not belive in Jesus Christ.

[@barney6888]

Sometimes I just stare at the thought that people don't know The Lord and are missing this wonderful friendship and love, as well as not hearing this amazing, inspired music.

[@barney6888]

Every time I revisit this work (which I believe was inspired by God) and listen to this recording, I am left musically overflowing and emotionally awestruck and stunned at the beauty. Trust in Christ my friends, He is as real as this music is beautiful, even more so.

[@carlosgonzalezalatorre8132]

I agree.....🙌🏻

[@thebes50]

Amen ❤

[@benjamindemornay1444]

Oh yes good speech Best wishes in the Lamb!

[@jorgeurzuaurzua4011]

Thanks for uploading this marvelous rendering of the Messiah from 1965. This was the golden age of the german conductors, Klemperer, Furtwangler, and soloist such as Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Nikola Gedda. The Philharmonia orchestra and choir were among the best of the world (at least the German musical world) at the time. This Messiah is respectful of the music, the sound is solemn and the instrumental and vocal support delicate and powerful at the same time. A truly reference recording.

[@cbtole1]

Monumental. Nothing even comes close. All his recordings are great. Check out his Bach;. you'll love it ❤

[@manolis.799]

While I’m generally a fan of the Historically Informed approach, I can’t deny there is a certain majesty and authority Klemperer brings to the work that makes this rendition stand tall above many others. While I wish it was complete and some numbers are more successful than others, I think Klemperer is fully genuine in his approach to bring an otherworldly air to this recording. It’s not quite as dramatic as later renditions, but it does succeed in overwhelming the listener with a flood of sound that you can’t help but be swept away by. Special mention to Jerome Hines for his magnificent and towering basso presence, I believe every word coming out of his mouth. Not necessarily my personal favorite recording, but one that must be experienced by any fan of this work. Klemperer’s style and approach are singular and stand alone.

[@mr-wx3lv]

I agree. Listen to his other baroque performances too. He brings a unique and majestic dimension to them..

[@antoniocarlosantunesantune3217]

No words. ... Klemperer the best interpretation and recording! Amazing!

[@david9531]

Thank you lord

[@aaronjohns3997]

i completely agree - Klemperer reigns supreme over the others

[@aniloza58]

Espléndida y magnífica. Me acompaña,desde hace años en las mañanas, alternando con las de Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Koopmann, Scherchen... Esta del maestro es sublime. Cómo la Pasion de St.Maeo de Bach. Hay vibratos y entrada del viento en Haendel, produgiosos. Gracias por disfrutar tanto del privilegio de las grabaciones.

[@IvanGreindl]

Des voix uniques, *d'anthologie* ! Jerome Hines était une basse extraordinaire. Merci pour ce magnifique partage.

[@MalisandreFeline]

Classical Référence, merci pour ces explications claires et précises!

[@jamesguest2240]

Simply the best recording currently available.

[@2mikelim]

All due to it being recorded in 1964 by the EMI BTR3 tube tape recorder, with possibly the EMI stereosonic capsule microphone. Had it been taped in the mid to late 70's I'd assure you that musicality wont be there, for its the transition era from tube to solid state that produced the grainiest and unmusical recordings.

[@randyyoung9409]

Best pacing and solos too.

[@franjostvarnik2372]

The magnificent performance! I am thrilled they did not adopt the over-fast tempi as in countless usual (“standard”) interpretations.

[@kbhprinsesse]

I agree that many conductors today adopt overly fast tempi to seem "correct" when playing baroque music. But this veers too much in the other direction - it's too slow!

[@mk5244]

@@kbhprinsesse ...with all due respect, Klemperer never did slow or fast tempi. Simply the right one as Furtwängler stated. Regarding Klemperers tempi „too slow“ is a matter of personal taste, which has nevertheless my respect. RDS

[@user-tb9vj3cj5j]

@@mk5244 I totally agree with you.

[@fernandofernandezgar]

Suprema versión, con solo decir que ese impresionante coro es dirigido por Wilhelm Pitz, quien fuera por años director del Coro de Bayreuth...Fabulosa lectura y ejecución de Klemperer. Una absoluta referencia. Un registro que quedará por siempre, solemne y monolítico, germánico e insuperable.

[@mk5244]

...The great Klemperer with voices from/for Opera. You can hear and feel it. The tempi just right, as there is no too fast /slow. I prefer Klemperer version to all the so called historic, slim, slender/ versions with the corresponding voices.

[@jefolson6989]

The old man had gravitas and stately exhaltation DOWN! When the AMENs start the clouds break, the sun streams in! Glorious!

[@hourlynewscaster]

If you had only one recording of MESSIAH to take with you to a desert island ... THIS is the one. Dennis

[@AlexSzell]

Who is Dennis?

[@stan7899]

I trust this is THE reference version of this outstanding masterpiece of sacred music.

[@mydogskips2]

Have you heard Sir Georg Solti with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Chorus? If not I think it's definitely worth a listen. I think it's much more precise, crisp and taut than this recording which I find rather bloated, muddled, and sometimes plodding.

[@johndrayton8728]

These are often-made criticisms of Klemperer's work. Personally I can't hear it: for example I revere his Matthäus-Passion above all other recordings of that masterwork. But I think there is certainly a place in Messiah for a lighter touch - beautiful as it is, I don't think it is as profound as Bach's oratorios.

[@mydogskips2]

+John Drayton And I love Klemperer's recording of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, but have yet to hear his Bach, I suppose I will have to have a listen. It's very fortunate there is a performance of it right here on this YT channel.

[@jesuszavalaaylas2258]

Grandioso,extraordinaria ejecución de Otto Klemperer al frente de la Orquesta Filarmónica,e disfrutado de principio a fin de esta bella obra de Haendel, que diferencia de dirección de famosos directores de orquesta de hace 50, 60 años como Sir Adrián Buolt, Karl Richter Sir Colin Davis y otros buenos directores de esa época; en la actualidad esta obra como otras la recortan no lo interpretan completo y decepciona escuchar bellísimas obras mutilados. He podido apreciar como debe de ser de esta bella obra.muchas gracias.

[@charlesscribneriii7587]

This is my Holy Grail of Messiah recordings. No human voice has ever breathed more miracles into "I know that my Redeemer liveth" than Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. And her "Rejoice greatly" is itself cause for rejoicing. As for the slow tempi, lesser artists could not pull them off, but it's worth the effort, and Klemperer's achievement is impeccable.

[@mk5244]

....Thank you! I am always sitting and listening in awe to this „Holy Grail“ as you described it. RDS!

[@charlesscribneriii7587]

Archibald Knillenhauer I'm thrilled you agree!

[@Moshmorenko]

The tempi are more effortful than worth the effort to these ears.

[@charlesscribneriii7587]

Moshmorenko It takes no effort to savor perfection slowly, but I admit that conductors today have accustomed their audiences to record-breaking speeds as attention spans shrink with each generation.

[@mk5244]

@@charlesscribneriii7587 ...indeed. Tempi are chosen as if dinner was waiting...RDS

[@monicajager130]

What can I say? What a marvellous, correct version! Thank you a million times for posting this great version with maestro Klemperer!!!

[@panospoupou7834]

Great Jerome Hines!!!

[@lsmith145]

A giant both musically and physically

[@jmdavi78]

Yes, absolutely one of the truly great American bass/baritones ever!

[@leonardopiodafonseca1500]

...versão majestosa e solene de"o messias" , absolutamente congenial à natureza íntima e infrangida da obra, ao génio incomparável de handel,outrossim à consumada e magnificente arte da regencia e fundo sentimento da música do grande klemperer,

[@leonardopiodafonseca1500]

@@e.a.s ,sim, também conheço e admiro muitíssimo a de Karl Richter, demais essas questões relativas à leitura e interpretação da música dita antiga, discussões e polémicas as quais igualmente alcançam a mesma obra de Beethoven e Schubert, são indiscutivelmente fascinantes e inesgotáveis, algo q ,dalguma sorte,segundo o dizer de um crítico, se assemelha à tradição ou tradições q cercam e iluminam a literatura sagrada de textos tidos e havidos como inspirados pelos deuses ,entre cujos interpretes, - ninguém o desconhece, - exegetas, leitores, expositores e hermeneutas, ha-os dados a visões e lições mais literais ou fundamentalistas , bem como aqueles q, feitos a sondar a história, iluminam a letra dos textos e órgãos divinos considerando-lhes a respectiva génesis e tradição q os berçou e canonizou no seio e consciência do povo ..em música , como bem o sabe o senhor, termos regentes e orquestras sobretudo dedicados a fazer soar, em nossos dias, o messias de Haendel , o stabat mater de pergolesi, ou as suites orquestrais de bach como quiçá os ouviram seus contemporâneos, da primeira metade do século 18... Destarte, temos o Beethoven literal ou quase, de estofo e alento clássico e depurado, consoante às lições austeras e escorreitas de toscanini ou de sabata , para quem a tradição era a partitura do compositor, em contraste com o Beethoven romântico e profético ,de furtwangler ou klemperer, knappertsbusch ou bohm, herdeiros diretos estes , como se sabe, do legado primordial de Wagner, liszt, berlioz e mahler ,

[@Erin50325]

BLESSED EASTER!!! THANKS SOOOOO MUCH!!! I'D NEVER HEARD THIS ABSOLUTELY ETHEREAL 1964 VERSION!

[@jean-jacques7083]

Thank You Classical Music ,magnifique interprétation du Messiah de Haendel par Otto Klemperer

[@classicalmusicreference]

Thanks Jean-Jacques :-)

[@seponvi]

Extraordinary performance of Klemperer on Haendel's Messiah !!!! Gracias :)

[@classicaldame4372]

Magnificent. Brilliant.

[@Jaumeparqe]

Klemoerer : lo mejor de lo mejor.

[@allenjones3130]

Jerry Hines's rendition of "But Who May Abide" convinced me that this aria should be sung by basses and baritones.

[@stuartwait3886]

HalleluYah ..... Praise to YHWH .... Yahuah .... No J in Hebrew love this recording

[@trucklou]

Maravillosa interpretación. El sentido del "tempo" de Klemperer: prodigioso...

[@talvela100]

imponente, una meravigliosa interpretazione

[@mariajoserios9201]

Wonderful Hallelujah Chorus music ! Thank-you so much !

[@peterobanya3061]

Reminds me of the classic good old Days when the world was still sane

[@pozzimusica]

Very beautiful rendition of Handel's Messiah. But I can't wade through the commercials.

[@MrYukon2010]

Just brilliant

[@leandrofelixmaestro2571]

Magnifico!!!

[@davidrehak3539]

Georg Friedrich Händel:Messiás HWV 56 Elisabeth Schwarzkopf-szoprán Grace Hoffman-alt Nicolai Gedda-tenor Jerome Hines-basszus Filharmónia Kórus Filharmónia Zenekar Vezényel:Otto Klemperer

[@1968KWT]

Premiered #otd in 1742 in Dublin 💐💐💐

[@Jaumeparqe]

Este Mesías de Klemperer y un Salomón de sir Thomas Beecham, dos joyas de la corona.

[@teepee431]

Oh, thank you. I have come to this after your upload of the Kemperer- St Matthew's Passion, perhaps in reverse order as one must go from X'mas to Easter.

[@juancarlosgomez7088]

Just great

[@dejanstevanic5408]

Thank you.

[@yuriyoleksyuk4361]

Paradis pour l'ame

[@mk5244]

...vraiment! Mes egards

[@arn_Bee920]

BraVO!!!

[@2mikelim]

This is a recording of a miracle of God, by the miracle of the tube EMI BTR3 tape recorder in 1964. Had it been recorded in the mid to late 70's, the sheer musical naturalness will be absent as it was then the age of the solid state tape machine and ancillary electronics. Another example of the magic of the BTR3 can be heard in EMI Pepe Jaramillo recordings of the 60's till mid 70's. Search Carnival in Mexico, Pepe plays Tijuana Sounds, Mexican Fiesta, etc and youll know what I mean!

[@user-lt7bu3nq6k]

克伦佩勒的合唱音乐一向如此感人.

[@2mikelim]

In performance and spirit, this Klemperer work exceeds my previous reference standard of Sir Malcolm Sargent/ Royal Liverpool Phil/Elsie Morrison by a fair bit, although the latter cant be dismissed as mediocre, but outstanding with its rustic English charm and spirit.

[@allenjones3130]

Jerome Hines lends his powerful voice to the bass role in this opera.

[@paullewis2413]

Yes this type of performance is not “trendy” at the moment. So what? Klemperer was one of the giants in interpretative expertise of the great classics. It does sound slow to modern ears, however in his hands there’s a majesty and gravitas totally lacking in so-called period versions. I doubt I’ve ever been disappointed in a single performance that I’ve heard from Klemperer and he inherited what was then possibly the finest orchestra and chorus in the World.

[@josedavidarrietamoreno7468]

Yo quiero iniciar ser un aficionado y conocedor de la música clásica, creo que esta es la versión que más en ha llamado la atención, es muy limpia y en las ejecuciones es centelleante, si alguien ve este mensaje por favor me puede dar una directriz para ir siendo buen escucha y como dije conocedor, se lo agradecería.

[@jefolson6989]

For desert Island I would take Beecham. I need those addded trombones but this is classic. I really appreciate Gedda's (almost) American English. "Egg salt uhd". More singable and understanable than the snooty British even American singers use.

[@katharinascharlowski3653]

This Interpretation mirrors and reflects From Deep within the Holy Words of the Bible and the Godgiven Divine Composition of Georg Friedrich Händel into my Dearest SoulLandscape a Feeling of Holyness is risen in me as I do Love God as The MessiaH in Joan Baez and me and is my Chosen Love Godgiven Forever .as Joan Baez is undoubtebly the True Love of my Life . She Invested her Life in bringing Good Tidings of comfort and Peace , shall i Say Love That in the MessiaH stays , as IKnow i will Never feel Triumphant over the defeat of the Weak and Poor It is Joans Love I Carry in me and She will Livelong and Forever know that my Love is around Above and inmittenLife and lLoveof All of Us as Well as i am wellcoming in Joan Baez, as Great and Holy is my Love the Holyness of the Word given and written for her is God In me . I know my Love is Well Cared inJoan, MY Joan is my myne we ‚Just married ‚the Day before the Day of yesterdsy, the Day before yesterday and TODAY in everlasting, longdesired Joy and True Love and Company. Danke Joan, my Love Deine Ken Katharina Kennst Du mir auch noch einmal zu Dir einen schönen Abend, I Will receive you now,,and be with You {Tondichters} ~KEnJa {🌹} inO~ tonight K. Scharlowski Bitte Danke Amen

[@katharinascharlowski3653]

🪶🪶🌹In gutenZeiten wie inmitten der Guten Zeiten, die auch Schweres zu ❤️‍🩹 überstehen wissen. As the Man of sorrows Even If acquainted with Grief i Love you unconditionnally Joan Baez, Katharina Scharlowski 🌱🧩🪶

[@Fritz_Maisenbacher]

1:58:14 ........ of course ........ but this time , not rhythm or melody , but lava .... incredible force by Klemperer....

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

Does anyone know who the trumpeter was in Trumpet Shall Sound? Surely, this was before the days of John Wallace.

[@marcomicheletti9957]

4:35, Confort (tenore) 8:05, aria

[@canman5060]

By stating Reference Recording does it mean with some exceptions from the original copyright ?

[@classicalmusicreference]

"Reference Recording" because this interpretation is excellent.

[@mydogskips2]

+Lar M It is called the "reference" as it is considered the standard against which all others are measured. If you will, the reference is the Carbon-12 atom, the pole star, the standard candle(as used in astronomy, which is possibly the most apt analogy used here), the meter stick, or 24 karat gold standard against which all others are held to compare. Forget everything I just said above... In simple terms, the "reference recording" is the recording which all others are compared/referenced to because it is widely considered to be the best, or at the very least, very, very good.

[@RattusYu]

Arguing which tempo is correct is like arguing on spelling Haendel, Handel or Handle. It is pointless.

[@mk5244]

....Absolutely! I rather sit, listen and enjoy this iconic recording. RDS

[@vaughangarrick]

My favourite aria If God Be For Us is missing no thanks

[@RequiemAeternam01]

Although I very much like this recording, I find Klemperer a tiny bit heavy-handed, if you know what I mean?

[@martinboring3895]

Level: German.

[@user-xt4cv6wz1f]

2時間超えてて草

[@AngelSanchez-oy5ov]

Pzzzzzrrrrzz

[@eternafuentedeluzdivina3189]

Excellent reference "interpretation" /essay /tryout /test for be as far away from it! This Romantic falsification lacks of the real essence that the Baroque music is! Thanks to my beloved God Klemperer never touched any musical score from the greatest masters from the first and second Baroque periods; music that demands a lot from the modern musicologists at the point that if Marienhaguen needed a retirement's whole year for achieve philosophical understanding of the scores, (without stepping in the Italian yards) he would give up when his eyes were in front of the output that came from the German masters like the masterfully angelical Schelle, the unstoppable solemnity from Brunhs, the perfectly divine quintessence that always came from the Miller of Roses or the sweet like no else Buxtehude! To try to do contemporary rehearsals of Baroque compositions is something like Pluhar tried to do with Purcell's Dido and Aeneas: a simple and vulgar calamity!

[@peterhelbich3334]

this is gods musc.....no great Music was ever composed by an Atheist......Facts and love from vienna Austria........where it all began..Haydn..Mozart..Beethoven..schubert..Brahms bruckner..strauss father+son..Schönberg...etc..................

[@peterhelbich3334]

proof it whee These Composers said so

[@arteguey]

@@peterhelbich3334 Proof it these composers said they were believers...

[@smileloveforgive4139]

Couldn't agree with you. Handel's Messiah will be sang in heaven where all musicians worth their salt are.