Hans Niemann VS Fabi In Crucial US Championship Game, Magnus Starts Drama In Qatar

[@davidjames149]

Fabi is the easiest player to root for in all of chess. Super strong, humble, objective when it comes to any controversy, and from what I can tell an all round good guy. Great episode, good luck to Fabi for the remainder of the tournament, and Cristian - keep up the great commentary and analysis!

[@CarlosFloresP]

Louder 🗣🗣

[@ropedragon9709]

And as a cherry on top, he often plays exciting and unusual positions!

[@WrangleRz]

Classic Italian gentlemen :)

[@davidjames149]

@@WrangleRz i'm an Italian / Australian and that's definitely part of why I love Fabi! I always wanted to name my future kid an Italian name like Giovanni or Giuseppe, since I got into chess this year i've added Fabiano to the list

[@FellowHuman18]

Yes, I hope Fabi is the next world champ. Good chance.

[@chesstourist]

What I meant by saying I hadn't seen the Nb5 and Ng5 idea is that it's easy to overlook unfamiliar tactics in chess. In hindsight, it's easy to say that the idea should have been checked. In hedgehog structures, Black sometimes allows Nb5 and counters with Ne8, pushing the knight back later with a6. Transferring the knight is a typical move, so sometimes players follow typical ideas and miss this kind of unfamiliar ideas. Secondly, I didn't mention a safety net involving the e5 idea because it wasn't as clean or as beautiful as another line. Mainly I wanted to demonstrate the beauty. Finally, I didn't comment on the rest of the game because it was perfectly played by White. However, I agree that it was more challenging than h6.

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

Cool insight

[@hellostranger2012]

I remember vidit used to be 2730 and he was in top 20 around 18 but Mvl's classical rating is just shocking at present 😢

[@TheBlade1985]

Yeah, he was always around 2760-2770 and at one point crossed the 2800 barrier, so yeah, lately he's been really low for his strength and understanding of the game...

[@ChavaM88]

Fabi finally has a good video/streaming setup! I prayed for days like this.

[@hyacinth199x]

Now I need Fabi to play some true gamer's games... I'll even watch him play Fall Guys. Or Among Us, he's perfect for that actually.

[@ChavaM88]

With this, I hope whenever he does stay at that setup, he can bless us with a short stream.

[@andylee63]

Yes!

[@sgc3594]

@@hyacinth199x i'd love to watch him play KIRBY

[@mattwilliams7454]

I prayed for shelter for the homeless and food for the starving. But your one is good too

[@nicholas6870]

Fabi you’re a gift to the game. We are so privileged to be getting inside baseball and brilliant analysis and insight from the #2 of any sport, let alone chess. I find it absurd that for this long into the smartphone age, people have been allowed to roam around the playing hall of some major chess tournament with their phones out. I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of cheating has been happening in the vast majority of tournaments where outside viewing was allowed, even at the highest level. If it’s this hard to control at super GM tournaments, then at lower level opens it must be absolutely rampant. The days of chess as a spectator sport have ended long ago already.

[@AnHonestDoubter]

46:14 *You do not need a transmitter.* If there is any view of an unsecured area (like a window from the playing area out to the street, or a distant part of the arena, etc), your accomplice with engine assistance can simply place a cup somewhere in this unsecured area, which indicates "critical move," the lack of a cup means non critical. The player could glance in this direction or look through the window after a move, etc. Zero tech involved and would be a huge advantage.

[@Five-Star-General]

Yes there was some spy show that i watched from the earlier 70’s where the dude cheated with an earpiece and the accomplice was in the van

[@origins7298]

Yeah imagination and movies are easy. Real life is hard. If anything it would just make you play worse and the whole plan would get botched and it's basically impossible at a setup like the US Open. At some low-level tournament sure it could happen but the amount of effort it would take at the US Open would just be a complete distraction and a complete waste of time and completely antithetical to playing good chess being at your best Just think about the amount of time and prep work to come up with some crazy scheme I mean come on these guys need to focus on playing chess It's all just fantasy it's like people who are flat earthers are people who believe in UFOs abductions I mean it's just fantasy

[@johnscanlon1764]

I don't entirely agree, these guys can spend their time preparing chess but they cannot do it endlessly. Also many of them know going in they have next to no chance of winning, especially if they fall behind in the first few games. I do not believe that anyone is cheating at the US Championship but it wouldn't be nearly as hard to set up as you make it out to be if you have 1/2 a brain cell. They know that although the rating difference of their opponents may be high (ex a 2500 vs Fabi at 2792 classical as of now) they only need 1-2 key moments to completely turn the game in their favor. Medium-high risk vs high reward will certainly earn the attention of some.@@origins7298

[@AnHonestDoubter]

@@origins7298 why don't you look up *Sébastien Feller* and *Cyril Marzolo* and then come back and re-write your little short story above.

[@origins7298]

@@AnHonestDoubter yeah I know about that, that was 15 years ago almost! Did the tournament have full body scanners? Were they playing with a 30-minute delay? Did they have the tournament hall sealed off to any spectators? I'm talking about with the precautions at the US Open, how could you possibly cheat? You really think getting Morse code through a tooth implant like Fabiano said is realistic? You think you're going to get good transmission You think there's not a good chance the signal will get messed up ? You're talking complete fantasy! You might as well be a flat earther or the crazy people talking about alien abduction Face it people make up crazy stuff all the time, but the reality is always much more complicated... It's not easy to pull off these incredible intricate mastermind type heists I mean come on man get real

[@buzzbain3348]

Another excellent show. Interesting and instructive. Great job Chris and Fabiano, your commentary style is stellar.

[@zenshosan]

Congrats on the win against Hans, Fabi!

[@jeremykothe2847]

The chess spoke for itsel... I'll show myself out.

[@robdubent]

Will you congratulate Han’s legit win against magnus? Of course you won’t. Triple digit elos can’t think for themselves.

[@zenshosan]

@@robdubent Sorry, I was just trying to give a complement.

[@jeremykothe2847]

@@robdubent if he stops being a complete asshole, maybe.

[@DanielVictorDVZero]

Amazing episode! I'm glad Fabi shared his thoughts on online cheating, it seems like he has been holding it off for a while and finally had the opportunity to speak freely. People were skeptical of Kramnik but now we know he is not the only one who believes cheating is much more prevalent online than we thought. Nepo and Dubov are also two other players concerned about it. It's a shame people really don't take it seriously, they just think 'if you can't prove, then nothing can be done' as if somehow it was impossible to try to discuss what can be done, who can take responsibility, measures against it, punishments and everything else. Cheating may always happen, but it doesn't mean we need to be complacent about it. I'm excited for Fedoseev's take on what happened there. Fabi also confirmed something I've noticed: it feels like some tournament organizers really don't care about it unless something happens. The way they quickly tried to pretend to fix the problems after Magnus complain is an example. It also shows how rules and guidelines are meaningless if the organizers themselves aren't taking measures to properly execute them, like when Cristian commented about his student there.

[@randybailin4902]

Fabi's analysis is as good as it gets. Crystal clear and deep.

[@fujiapple9675]

I was thinking the same thing. Fabi's analysis is top tier. On top of being among the greatest chess players of all time, Fabi is able to articulate his thoughts seamlessly and precisely, while making it tangible and enjoyable for his entire audience.

[@piouswhale]

In Reykjavik 2023 there was a "no smartphones in playing hall" rule. First day or two there were no screening wands anywhere. After that one or two started floating around. Once I had to get an arbiter after some children on smart phones were hanging out near the top boards (including the boards that were on streaming cameras). They got better over the event (this was the largest registration they had at 440+) and I think they'll make it better next time

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

They really need to start cracking down on these simple measures cause this might be an existential threat to professional players.

[@babstra55]

200 points difference = lose roughly 1/4, 400 difference = 1/16. so 2850 vs 2500 loses roughly 1/14 games, on average. that's pretty much the metric all rating systems are build on. but like going 1/28 or 1/7 games are not hugely unlikely on any single winning streak. you'd need hundreds of games to even begin to say whether 2500s are winning magnus more than they should.

[@debblez]

400 points is defined to be 1 : 10 odds

[@billj4525]

@@debblez Yeah, I was just about to type the exact same thing, but then I read your comment. I think 350 points is very close 90% against your opponent on average, maybe 88%.

[@korosensei3063]

It's clearly a special case when you get to the higher -- and probably much much lower -- levels. Magnus had a streak of 150~ games (IIRC) where he didn't lose. Only wins and draws, to be beaten by Duda. He loses on average twice a year, only to supergrandmasters. His opponent did not cheat. But the 1-10 does not work when it comes to Magnus's - or any top players - ratings.

[@grammarnazi9440]

I agree Magnus lost to such a weaker opponent nearly after 20 years

[@katis999]

Thanks Cristian and Fabiano, what a great podcast !

[@erickLguzman]

It’s very impressive how objective and professional he is during Fabi v Hans game

[@sdaiwepm]

Yes, and he can see Hans' lawyers lurking just off camera with their next lawsuit.

[@kc910]

@@sdaiwepmlawyers don’t decide when to sue someone 🙂

[@erickLguzman]

@@kc910 kc910 decides!

[@kc910]

@@erickLguzman 🤣

[@kc910]

As long as I don’t have to pay

[@guest_informant]

35:40 That analysis of Qb3 sounds exactly like what commentators say when the engine shows them the "obvious" move that they hadn't thought of: as soon as they see it and they know that it is strong it takes little or no time to understand why, but seeing it unprompted is an entirely different proposition.

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

Yeah, it’s kind of abstract to actually name such a move as easy or difficult. The calculation is easy, but actually seeing it can just be so different from person to person.

[@sdaiwepm]

@Fabi Thank you for fixing the audio problem!

[@aldsdwin]

For me this is one of the more interesting episodes. Thanks guys for making this episode on a rest day.

[@MegaAndyandyandy]

great game. Petition to have Fabi make some Audio books. His voice is like a warm blanket.

[@sgc3594]

100%. I could listen to this man all day.

[@Paulimausi]

OMG SLEEP STORIES BY FABI PLS

[@OblivionEight]

Thanks Christian and Fabi, good luck in this tournament in both your play and commentary!

[@northzealand]

I trust Fabi ability to know the strength of his opponent 100% - I will never forget a game he did blindfolded against a cheater, he knew 25+ moves deep theory - did a post mortem with Eric

[@NoProHarrie]

This is a great episode! I thouroughly enjoy Fabis way of thinking. Even though I reckon an over the board versus online play difference could come from nerves as well. The idea it chsnged since money really became a point could also mean people are trying harder. If I got lucky in a few rounds I could just have a better overall tournament. But like I said Fabi has great takes on the cheating problem! Thanks guys can't wait for the next one 😊

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

It’s all sort of theorizing on cheating, which is why it’s such a scary issue for these professional players. There’s no certainty in anything.

[@rancal]

I loved the Baby Fabi pic that got snuck in there. 😂

[@112233JORDAN]

Congrats on the win. I'm rooting for Fabi, Wesley, and Hans to do well.

[@carlsanders7824]

The more 2500+ players you allow to enter tournaments, the more they will win. High level players hate playing lower rated players because the pay-off is low and the risk is high, with regard to points. This is why most tournaments do not even invite such players.

[@dessertstorm7476]

Regarding Nepo's comment. If a 2500 cant beat a 2800 without cheating then what's the purpose of playing the game?

[@8964TS]

I know venues scan players to see if they’re carrying devices, but what do they do to jam signals or block the internet? Obviously this could impact broadcasting, but there must be ways to simply stop devices working without hurting the broadcast signal.

[@jackwilliams7193]

was sunday a rest day? i'm amazed they're getting a podcast out in the middle of the tourney, gotta imagine they're pretty busy bees

[@stoutlager6325]

Regarding tournament security, the major problem here is there is no consistency. It seems to vary from venue to venue and event to event. I'm very tired of there being some questionable thing and only then security gets increased in reaction. Or we come to find out security is less or more because of the organizer's choice. Why are the organizers the ones to make this decision? FIDE is the governing body here, why don't they stipulate that, if you are holding a FIDE rated event, the following security measures MUST be in place? Standardize the whole thing. Make it predictable for everyone involved.

[@lollycopter]

As someone who has scalped players several hundred Glicko points higher than me multiple times over the past few years in nationally-rated otb chess, I find that strong players are often too brash and impulsive when it comes to their time management. They see me struggling in the opening (sometimes I pretend to struggle more than I really am) and I then play a defensive middlegame. Then, suddenly, find out that endgames are my favourite phase of chess. Until the situation changes, always burn clock and always play for a draw! There isn't a single losing move for the lower rated player if the lower rated player doesn't blunder early. Always assume there's a solution for every position and the stronger player won't have any option but to play for a draw for the time being.

[@imeprezime1285]

Interesting take on ratings Fabiano. As concerns assistance of engines, they were already stronger than humans in 2007-2008, but other technologies like smartphones were not so developed to make cheating easy

[@harleywoods9619]

Yo you cant upload when Im watching Fabis game haha

[@johnhoslett6732]

I really enjoy watching chess tournaments online and I have no problem with a 30 minute delay. Doesn’t impact my enjoyment at all. Whatever it takes to keep it fair. 😎

[@213kanwernadeem5]

this is the best chess streaming duo...love you guys...great content

[@AzoozMaham]

Spectators were just walking around the playing hall on the first day. I was there and Magnus was interviewed after his match ended and he said everything was good. You can also watch the interview on KZbin. He did not comment on anything on his social media accounts on the first day. But on the second day, when the organizers prevented us from even sitting in the first half of the seats at the bottom and made us sit at the top, away from the players, the place was completely quiet. Everyone was prevented from going downstairs. He talked about the topic even though the situation was not exactly the same on the second day. But he talked about something that didn't exist just because he lost. Perhaps he was right on the subject of the watch, but on the subject of spectators he was completely wrong.

[@JonesBeiges]

Maybe more context, Broadcasting with no delay + spectators with phones + watches........

[@monikaperson99]

Every player should be aware of the impact of wearing a watch in a tournament. The chief arbiter himself said in an interview with chessbase India, that analog watches were not allowed.

[@Speedster___]

What’s the post that Fabi referenced about the game analysis

[@DebayanRay-rb3qy]

How can you follow the games of the US chess championship?

[@sdaiwepm]

At the end of the Kramnik interview, I thought that Fabi pushed back quite a bit - but I hear a very different tone here. I hope we can find a way to save our beautiful game.

[@tommyh5540]

Could be Kramnik has shown Fabi some of his/his team's papers and analysis in private in the meantime.

[@lukaswolek7294]

I'm really worried about the chess cheating, because I played in a OTB league game and they didn't even take my phone. I could have basically gone to the toilet to cheat.

[@abcdefghilihgfedcba]

In all my OTB tournaments I just turned off my phone and put it in my bag. An arbiter once said “we’re not allowed to put our hands on you” so it was basically just a request to hand over phones, I don’t know if they can force you to. I’ve personally never bothered considering OTB cheating at my low Elo but I wouldn’t be surprised if people were doing it. It seems like organizers care more about getting money in (more people playing) than to stop them from potentially cheating by invading their privacy or anything of the sort. It is a shitty situation. Edit: I just remembered in my very first OTB tournament, one guy had his cellphone go off during the game. He lost that game on the spot but nothing else was done about him.

[@MrWaschbrettbaer]

About Quatar masters anti-cheating measures. If the tourney is part of the FIDE circuit why doesn't FIDE mandate and control whether the organizers comply to specific anti cheating measures? It's qualification points for the candidates after all.

[@Anubrogue]

I really love your podcast. It is unmatched in terms of chess content. Only criticism: it would be GREAT if you could upload the podcast on Spotify (etc.) immediately or shortly after you publish it on KZbin. Fabi has been US Champion for a number of days, people following the chess scene will have already known that and watched content about the US Championship. Personally, I listen to your podcast while doing chores, commuting to work or walking, when it's very inconvenient (and battery-draining) to listen on KZbin. Thank you guys and keep up the otherwise immaculate work!

[@fredlumba2076]

You are doing well Fabi. It's good you are aware of the guys chasing you. Good luck.

[@ericv00]

How is it that cheating measures are dropping more than building up? Isn't that kind of Magnus' entire point, for all this time? How hard is it to have some anti-cheating measures?

[@lukaswolek7294]

I'm not sure if they're dropping, but you have to find a balance between satisfying viewers and sponsors and having strict anti cheating measures.

[@ericv00]

@@lukaswolek7294 Maybe not generally, but if the description of Titled Tuesdays is accurate, certainly it is the case there. And it is generally true that potential cheating is not taken seriously even now, after the Carlson/Neimann thing. That is bizarre to me, given how easy it is to do.

[@youtubecensoringcomments7427]

​@@ericv00Magnus was wrong in saint Louis about niemann

[@dessertstorm7476]

@@lukaswolek7294 the initial conditions for this qatar tournament were definitely slacker than other's we have seen recently. Lack of any kind of delay for example was a big deal.

[@ericv00]

@@youtubecensoringcomments7427 And? Did YOU miss the point of that event? The issue is not whether or not there is a cheating smoking gun. This point is it is possible and easy with how lax a lot of these events are and precautions need to rise to meet that potential. Just tighten precautions. It ain't hard. Also, no proof of cheating is not proof it didn't happen. What you mean to say is that there is no proof Neimann cheated. And Magnus never officially accused Neimann. That was a read people had of Magnus' concerns, which is a far cry from an actual accusation.

[@shvenanaij]

Congrats for win against Hans. I checked the stats and I was pleasantly surprised to know that you have won all your classical games against Hans. 4 games and all won with black pieces. 👊

[@OELucas]

What’s his headphone? Looks very comfy

[@viriatoferreira16]

Magnus was right. Nepo his right. Fabi his right. What is FIDE waiting for? I don't care about online chess but over the chessboard I care and strange things are happening!

[@patrickdaly1088]

Great win against Hans today Fabi! I definitely agree that cheating is a problem and it's getting worse, but also, I think that the separation of the fields has led to a ratings disparity that doesn't actually exist. When's the last time Magnus lost to a 2500? Idk, how often does he play 2500's now? Hard to lose games you don't play. I sincerely think that if the 2700 club had to play more 2500's, they would all lose 50-100 ratings points. The top 100 would still probably be very close to the same rankings, maybe a few new faces popping in and out, but I think that the gap between 2500 and 2800 isn't quite as far as people make it out to be. Regular ol' GM's can play pretty good chess in classical sometimes, I don't think magnus would score the 9/10 he needs to maintain his rating if he only played 2500's. I'd love to see more tournaments with a mix of superGMs and 2550-2650, rather than purely supertournaments. Some supertournaments is cool, but the bloodbaths that would occur when a pair of 2750's know they need to go +4 or +5? There's probably a need to reform the ratings system as well, I'm actually thinking about putting a bit of work into that just to see where the numbers land if you suddenly dump twice as much talent into the field. If you've got a 2700 club, and suddenly there's twice as many players at that talent level, from where do the points come? Particularly if this pattern is repeated down all of the ratings ladder, I would think that there's a limited pool of points, so if the pool of talent goes up, the average points per player would go down. If y'all are interested in seeing the results, I'm pretty sure I could work out some simulations that could show an inherent deflation due to overly rapid growth of the total amount of players, indicating that a reform of the system could be called for.

[@thomasdequincey5811]

Your comment just doesn't make any sense. 2500's aren't forced to be 2500's. If they're better than their rating they will beat players close to them and gain elo. The Qatar Masters was a mess. By having such lacklustre security the tournament lost the trust of the players which distorted the results. Magnus didn't lose because he was playing a 2500. He lost because he thought he was playing a 3500 (or, Magnus was actually playing a 3500).

[@patrickdaly1088]

​@@thomasdequincey5811 You're fundamentally wrong and you should rethink your confidence levels in your own knowledge. You've completely missed my point and there's literally no point discussing it with you because your mind is closed to new ideas.

[@patrickdaly1088]

@@thomasdequincey5811 When you're ready to consider alternatives to your own small minded interpretation; The bubble+deflation means that ALL 2500's are closer to 2600 than their rating would indicate, and this is also true of the 2800's, they're not 2800. Magnus is down 11 points. Hikaru is down 6. They'd all lose rating if they had to play 2500s. The rating system is broken and the bubble makes it worse.

[@jandime9540]

Where’s the after party stream

[@daryab9416]

Hi guys. Great episode. It's very good that you speak your mind. And I think you're on the right path to it, too, rather than somewhat singling out players. A suggestion, I've seen Dubov doing a lot of podcasts recently and he also talks about titled Tuesday. How about asking him on the podcast?

[@toodle361]

Great takes on every topic that you guys touched on

[@marcrob100]

One big point made by MVL was that legit wins like the one by Alisher Suleymenov are tainted by the suspicion of cheating if the organisers fail to enforce strong anti cheat measures

[@thomasdequincey5811]

How do you know the Suleymenov win was "legit"? Magnus laid out perfectly in his tweet how easily Suleymenov could've cheated. You don't wear watches in OTB chess, unless you're up to no good.

[@mwheezee]

was Fabi talking about Bortnyk when talking about TT cheaters ?

[@gasslighterr]

That's exactly what I thought, I love watching Bortnky's TT streams and he doesn't seem like a cheater, but all of what Fabi said matches up with Bortnyk. I went through their games and other was one where Fabi lost with white and he kept playing against him. Maybe to see if he would blunder or not since there wasn't much time left. The stagnated otb rating also contributes, his rating has hardly changed within the last 5 years. Also he get's top 10 every time and wins every now and then. He seems like the exact player Fabi describes as a cheater but having watched a lot of Bortnyk's streams I don't think he cheats.

[@mwheezee]

@@gasslighterr yea exactly, but then again as Fabi said, they dont have to cheat in every single game or every single move, Ofc im not saying that Olek is a cheater, but according to Fabi's description, only Bortnyk fits the bill

[@gasslighterr]

@@mwheezee I looked at a lot of Fabi's past games and there's a Russian GM who also kinda fits and was caught cheating before, Alexander Rustemov. But he rarely gets top 10 and idk if he even plays titled tuesday, so Bortnyk does fit the bill the most since he actually gets top 10 and top 5 a decent amount, and every now and then he get's first.

[@e4jasperi]

18:59 the results approach is the most effective tbh. If there is a significant statistical difference between otb and online results, something fishy might be going on.

[@RubixNinja]

I think its entirely possible people play at a different strength online. It's a completely different environment. There are less psychological aspects than in person chess. I bet people who struggle with anxiety/social anxiety might not perform as well in person. Also, my first reaction of people getting better 3 years ago online could be because during covid, people were playing online way more than before.

[@aftermath4096]

tactics are also much easier to spot on a screen than OTB

[@morcjul]

Yes, online chess is 2 dimensional, while OTB is a 3 dimensional view and i feel its more difficult to remember openings when playing OTB

[@michaelgilyatt5697]

Great ep as always guys. I wanted to ask a question about cheating in chess, though. When Hans (sorry, I'm sure you're fed up of speaking about him), beat Magnus and everything blew up, it was said that he couldn't be strong enough to beat Magnus. Now with the results at the Qatar Open showing that in fact people lower rated than Hans can beat top super GMs, even with the black pieces, does this change how people should view the Hans-Magnus situation? I get that he didn't help himself when he cheated online, but it feels like this shows that super GMs are perfectly capable of losing to lower rated players if they're not at it, which Magnus wasn't in his game vs. Hans?

[@thomasdequincey5811]

I think Hans cheated and Suleymenov cheated.

[@hngeh7021]

Only 15 minutes in, but man it has to be frustrating to be a really strong player like Fabi playing in Titled Tuesdays and having random titled players cheating against you constantly. Fortunately I'm some random chess nobody playing online chess, without anyone cheating against me as far as I can tell.

[@eseholmes4592]

Fabi with the brass knuckles coffee mug. Deadly.

[@FellowHuman18]

one of your most interesting episodes. Nice work.

[@mindanalyzer8302]

imo its not impossible to hide a cheating device inside an analog watch. in fact, counterfeiters can create super tiny fake analog engines, so lots of real estate in there for cheating device

[@astlinj]

If u really want to cheat, there r other places to keep also. Only fools keeps in watch.

[@morcjul]

A watch could be a great decoy from more sophisticated cheating

[@robdubent]

‘They’re listening maaaaan! It’s a conspiracy maaaan!’ 🤡

[@iTeleco]

It's great that finally, one of the world's strongest active players decided to speak up about this!

[@guest_informant]

Maybe the last time Magnus lost this badly was when Anish beat him with black in 22 moves in 2011 at Tata Steel.

[@sonnybello2327]

Fabi, I strongly disagree with you with your statement “A 2500 has a 2% chance of winning against a 2800”. This douses the ambition of 2500 GMs. From personal experience, I am a 1800 rated player BUT in 1 in 10 games I’ve beaten 2200 rated players. After beating them, they immediately stopped playing with me. Perhaps, they’re muttering “cheating”!

[@agrimpandotra1235]

Reminds me of Alexander Grischuk where he made Levon wait for 1 hour just to trap his queen in the opening. And then there’s this guy, who went to such lengths just to lose against a 2200 😂

[@Patrick462]

I was shocked at the 50% cheater level in Titled Tuesday. But I'm willing to listen to someone who's both a very high level player and is reasonable.

[@OmneAurumNon]

While I agree that tournaments need more security to prevent cheating, I don't like how Magnus responded. He shouldn't bring up cheating after losing to a lower rated player. it's unsportsmanlike, and mars the younger players accomplishment. Fedoseev's behavior, on the other hand, is inexcusable. Running out your clock instead of resigning is bad enough. But to insinuate that your opponent cheated after playing a bad game is completely unacceptable. He ought to be sanctioned and maybe even expelled by the organizers. Cheating is definitely a problem, but so are baseless accusations and insinuations. Publically claiming, or even implying, that your opponent cheated without evidence ought to be considered a serious offense. Otherwise, we'll end up with a world where every time a younger or lower rated player wins a game they'll have to waste their time and energy fending off pointless allegations.

[@herkules593]

He did not accuse anyone of cheating. He even said so. But if your opponent has a device that is banned because he could cheat with it, you of course get nervous.

[@OmneAurumNon]

@@herkules593 Like they said in the podcast, the complaint is reasonable, but the timing is bad. And it should have been taken to the arbiters directly, not to twitter

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

I appreciate Fabis take on the new cheating situation. It was measured and made me see things in a new light.

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

I think Magnus timed it very poorly to do it after a loss. Bringing it up as an excuse is also poor sportsmanship even if it’s true. His points are accurate though and I hope the arbiters act on them.

[@felixal]

I hope you will get Hans on after the tournament

[@TheArash45]

Fabi expressing concern about cheating in chess and its frequency in Titled Tuesday speaks volumes about why Magnus lost concentration during his game. Every game is important to these guys. Hikaru, on the other hand, used this situation against Magnus to say that he made a big deal out of the whole situation instead of supporting his stance for tougher measures. It's not too much to ask when players want to not have to worry about cheating.

[@susbedo9258]

To be fair, Hikaru isn't against Magnus' call for better anti cheating measures but rather the timing and the way he addressed the issue. Could have been better if Magnus spoke out before he lost his game. And if he was concerned about analog watches, he could have approached the arbiter and make a request for the watch to be removed.

[@kilburnsc]

Hikaru has been on Magnus's side since this whole thing started. So much so that he's the only other player sued by Niemann. Portraying Hikaru as someone who doesn't care about cheating or even worse someone who condones it is just misrepresentation. You may like the guy or not, but pro-cheating he's not.

[@monikaperson99]

​@@susbedo9258He asked the arbiter in the early game and was told, that analog watches are allowed.

[@monikaperson99]

Streamer Hikaru: I literally don't care about anti cheating measures. I wait until Magnus complains and then make a video 😭

[@monikaperson99]

Streamer Hikaru: I literally don't care about anti cheating measures. I wait until Magnus complains and then make a video 😭

[@knutcatania1679]

The easiest way to cheat over the board: 1)get a small hidden camera and hidden ear piece, place them in the corner of the playing hall the day before the event. 2)go through metal detection and retrieve hidden camera and ear piece just before your round 3)have a second person feeding you moves in real time during your match from another location.

[@alexanderallegra432]

No offense fabi, but when Hans called you fettuccine carbonara I laughed really hard

[@that-xs7zq]

The funny thing is that the phrase originated from Hikaru.

[@YaSabiamos]

That is so disrespectful. Is like calling Hikaru Sushikaru for his Japanese roots

[@mikesuttles8059]

​@@YaSabiamoshope it's over my head. But fuck is everyone this soft? No one can take a joke anymore?

[@mikesuttles8059]

Sushikaru is funny as well

[@ertjg]

when ? 😂

[@blender_wiki]

I am really surprised by the low quality of the comments of this video. If this is rappresentative of the chess fan base the future of chess is really really dark.

[@AdultImprover]

Another issue with cheating : in other athletic sports, even if athletes cheat it remains a great spectacle, it remains a performance, it is still interesting (speaking strictly from a spectator's point of view) . In chess, watching computers play is absolutely pointless, it takes all the value out of it. Cheating can't destroy athletic sports because it doesn't take the "show-value" out of it. But it does, and it can, in chess.

[@timcannon5384]

Love the pod, wanted to say I take Fabi's point about online cheating, but I expected him to at least discuss the fact that some people will be significantly better in one or the other. Danya is a top online blitz player, he's 2619 fide, I would bet my life he's never cheated. Fabi is not significantly weaker at online blitz, but he's certainly not number 2 in the world like he is OTB. I really appreciate hearing Fabi's honest thoughts, just thought he could have discussed this point that many people's levels are legitimately different online.

[@ParanoidAandroid]

when I heard Fabi talk about the 2600 player who does well online, I immediately wondered if he had Naroditsky in mind. I definitely don't think Naroditsky would ever cheat... but not sure who he could be referring to.

[@timcannon5384]

@@ParanoidAandroid He's not talking about Danya because Danya doesn't do that well in titled tuesday, Bortnyk and a few others do though and they are right at 2600 also. Bortnyk has a lower classical rating than Danya and has won several TTs recently. Jospem also is 2600 and has won like 5 TTs, all more recent ones. They both stream though, my assumption was he was talking about someone like Jospem, streaming or not.

[@ParanoidAandroid]

@@timcannon5384 yeah that makes more sense. Danya does do well enough in Tt though. Fabis example had someone finish in the top 3 - could be wrong but I thought this was fairly consistent with danyas performance

[@timcannon5384]

@@ParanoidAandroid Somewhat but Danya has only ever won TT once that I am aware of, so he moreso fits the trend of expected performance Fabi was also discussing. Bortnyk and Jospem have won 5 and 6 at the same classical rating as Danya. Im a fan of all these guys, I just dont know who else fits, because people like Andreikin, Xiong, and Sarana have won a lot but are very high rated in classical.

[@JohnVC]

Here's my question... Would they have cared about the watch if this kid didn't beat Magnus and/or if he didn't tweet about it? It still doesn't seem as if organizers are prepared for what may arise.

[@jordan22031991]

Maybe when Fabi says "I don't see anything there (psition wise)" he is missing the point that he is almost a 2800 player and he might not be thinking in a way that can a 2300 or 2500 player can pick up the moves against magnus or any other player of such caliber !!

[@debblez]

Personally, I play much worse over the board than online (>200 rating difference) because I am way more used to online, but I assume fabi is talking about people who are more familiar with over the board chess.

[@mememe733]

As a Dane I understand the way Magnus expresses himself, since Norwegians and Danes culturally/socially are quite similar and we can understand each other’s language. We are generally very direct even blunt at times when we talk to others, and we freely speak our minds. Political correctness and superfluous pleasantries are not really hallmarks of our way of communicating 😄 This is obviously just the way that’s natural and normal to us, but for foreigners (I have heard many foreigners, especially Americans mention this) we are often seen as being rude, insensitive, insulting or inappropriate. Thankfully, in time most get used to it, and even come to appreciate the “no bs” approach to getting our message across 😅 Anyway, to get back to Magnus, he obviously didn’t accuse his opponent of cheating, since he went out of his way to stress that he didn’t, but the whole situation where anti cheating measures were not in place, where official FIDE rules were broken (the watch) and the incident not taken care of, even when it was brought to the attention of the personnel, just messed with his head so he couldn’t concentrate fully on the game. Considering how much Magnus has done to bring attention to the rising problem of cheating both online and OTB, putting his reputation on the line, receiving a ton of criticism, being ridiculed as a sore loser etc. and even being sued for millions of dollars, I can definitely understand why he would be upset and frustrated by his experiences at the Qatar open tournament. I imagine it must be very aggravating to see that despite all his efforts this past year, to bring focus to the problem of cheating (which everyone seems to agree does in fact happen) the organizers of the tournament didn’t even try to improve anything in order to prevent cheating. I also feel that some players/actors/spectators with their actions/attitudes actually contribute to the problem of cheating not being taken seriously enough. It feels a bit like Magnus is being thrown under the bus, by some of those who most of all should be in support of measures for the betterment of the sport. On top of that, there’s the psychological impact of the uncertainty that’s impossible ignore as Fabio said in this video. If your opponent suddenly plays an unusually good move (which everyone statistically do sometimes) but you are already concerned about the lack of anti cheating measures and practices that you have observed, then you might start to question everything that happens. Are you losing because you are playing poorly? Are your current or next opponent really the person sitting across from you? or is it stock fish? And since your mind naturally is not able to just ignore all these worries, you can’t fully concentrate on the game, including calculating moves with accuracy, which further stresses you and diminishes your ability to evaluate your own play, giving room for more doubts and insecurity in the situation, all of which can only affect your game negatively. Obviously, I don’t know what Magnus was thinking or feeling at the time of the game, but he did say that it affected his ability to fully concentrate on the game and to me the result definitely confirms that. The way chess are being played competitively today, has changed drastically in such a short time due to technological advances, that it only seems logical to evaluate and determine, if existing rules and practices also needs to be changed, in order to preserve the integrity of the sport. What’s the point of spending hours every day for 20+ years studying theory, playing chess and preparing for tournaments, if you can’t even know if your results are legit or not? This problem with cheating, can end up really damaging chess as a sport, even worse than the damage doping did to many other sports, before they did some serious work to try and curb it. Doping still exists of course, and probably always will, like any kind of cheating, but by making it much harder to get away with, implementing a zero tolerance policy, and by making the punitive measures if caught much harsher, it’s no longer as tempting and therefore less likely to occur.

[@billmorrigan386]

@mememe733 Good points. Indeed, anti-cheating measures should be ramped up or cheating can cause a lot of damage. I also agree that there are psychological aspects to not knowing if your opponent plays fairly or not. The only positive thing here is we can always analyze our game with an engine later on and check its quality in terms of ACPL (average centipawn loss) both for ourselves and for the opponent. It gives a pretty good idea how much we/our opponent overperformed or underperformed in said game. Of course, one game is not indicative of whether any cheating took place. Checking more games played in a row will get us a much better idea. By the way, Caruana made excellent points in this video. I'm glad that he has guts and integrity to speak out about the problem. I don't know about specific numbers, like, 25% or 50% but the ballpark of such numbers is definitely correct unless we want to lie to ourselves. Now then, the way I see it, the cheating problem is already becoming rampant in OTB tournaments too. It's not as bad as it is online (obviously) but it looks pretty dire. I wish organizers started implementing stricter measures. What's more, they should ramp up anti-cheating measures even below Elo 2500. It's not that only grandmasters have cheating problems. Everybody does. Even amateurs may have them!!!

[@billmorrigan386]

@@Edd_LShore It's common knowledge in the chess community despite the fact that most cases are not investigated properly or dismissed out of hand.

[@billmorrigan386]

And that's the problem that FIDE and organizers don't provide enough anti-cheating measures. It's a huge problem. And I don't mean Carlsen here. It's especially rampant below the very top levels.

[@mememe733]

@@Edd_LShore people like you are a big part of the problem. Why are you attacking Magnus instead of supporting his efforts to bring awareness to a very real problem that needs to be resolved? And fast. Do you not agree that cheating, especially online, but also OTB occurs? Do you not understand that with the exponentially rapid advancement of new technology, in combination with the existing, probably now inadequate statistical methods to discover irregularities, the outdated rules/practices when tournaments are played, AND the disappointing lack of initiative to even try and make it harder to cheat, the problem will increase with alarming speed. We might end up loosing many of the best players in the sport, both present and future talented players, who might just give up on playing competitively, simply because it’s not worth it, if you can’t even trust the results.

[@billmorrigan386]

@@Edd_LShore Good point about nothing stopping even top players from cheating. And yes nobody cares except for the chess players themselves. Those who were caught were mostly cheating too much and in a way that is too obvious. And even then it was hard to catch them. It's mostly finding phones that players use. The problem is that new technology is already here, like, micro headphones (literally invisible) and stuff like that. Organizers do need to ramp anti-cheat measures. It's ridiculous when there's no time-delay during broadcast or audience with phones too close to the players. It's less likely to happen at the top level where, say, Magnus, plays as anti-cheating measures are stricter there but at lower level tournaments it is *literally a disaster!*

[@sjokankbh]

regarding rating deflation: I think the only possible explanation is the rapidly growing number of players - and some rating points going to those new players.

[@sdaiwepm]

There is one problem with the security measures suggested by Fabi: at some point, playing tournaments ceases to be fun. I am an amateur, and an adult. I like playing chess, but I have better uses for weekend or vacation days than to spend them confined to a small space, now unable to even look at the GM games, separated from all belongings, in complete silence.

[@joshuacrompton6974]

Let’s go Fabi!

[@slimmamba7208]

The chess community is currently experiencing collective hyper acute paranoia. Speed chess has a randomizing element, higher rated players should be expected to have less consistent results when playing quicker time controls. Tournament halls are not an ideal playing environment for all competitors. When playing online each competitor has the opportunity to pick their own setup. This can result in a boost in playing performance and is in no way violating fair play policy. Magnus should have spoken to a tournament director before the game if he felt a dress code violation had taken place. Speaking publicly after a poor performance is bad taste. Unfortunately, this isn't the first time Magnus has shown this lack of discretion. Fabiano has never been as strong a blitz player as a classical player. A drop in his blitz performance is expected. I think Fabi should refrain from accusing his colleagues of foul play.

[@laidbackmedia]

Online chess can never have efficient measures to ensure its not happening, pro or amateur. Perhaps a new rating system for non over-the-board games should be considered.

[@f12mnb]

The chess organizers if they are serious, should talk with the casino people. Those people take cheating very seriously and do not assume. It is like when there were con artists posing as having paranormal powers. The people who were the best at debunking them were magicians - people who are professionals in fooling people.

[@iwanabana]

Wow, never thought of that but surely these tournaments could be played at the casino!

[@chadmacgargle5311]

Thats the problem with deciding classical games in rapid and blitz. An average trained decision maker is going to make a mistake every 256 moves and every 8 games will miss play a position. Of course the better the player the fewer mistakes, but as you can see even Magnus versus a 2500 is not exempt from human error. Classical matches need to be decided by classical games.

[@NoProHarrie]

After watching I would like to hear what you Two think would be the result of chess cheating for the players. Would cheating make ones chess capabilities better or worse when unable to cheat?

[@edddo4314]

But isn't the ooponents rating the main problem with the Magnus game? I'm not a chess player so I don't know much but as I see it - Fabi analyzes those moves as nothing too special but it's like that from his - super GM's perspective. 2500 should make more mistakes, no?

[@dsrguru]

The main problem with that game was that Magnus wasn't able to concentrate because his opponent's watch combined with the tournament's lack of anti-cheating measures kept reminding him that his opponent *could* easily be cheating. After the game, Magnus didn't seem suspicious of his opponent's actual play, and Fabi is showing that none of the moves in isolation feel too difficult for a 2500 human to find on a good day.

[@edddo4314]

@@dsrguru I know that story, I'm talking about the part of the conversation whether his opponent actually cheated anyway.

[@tomaszjaniga4725]

I'm only an 1800-1900 player but I witnessed so much cheating on my level too. For example I played 1500 and he trapped my bishop by sophisticated tactic (every move 5-7sec)but he don't take it me thinking o ok his only 1500 didn't see that so I'm trying to save bishop but then after few moves I'm losing queen and rook by magical tactics and I was like f.... But keep playing and then he decides that he can finish me without engine, I guess because I regain material with interest in a few moves, then I can see he takes long thinking (caching with the game on his cheating board?) and then again every move 5-7 sec per every move. Of course on higher level methods of cheating are not that simple so harder to catch. My intuition says there are cheaters even on the highest level.

[@gelatinousjoe7979]

Yeah, online cheating is rampant at the 1700-2300 rating range

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

​@@gelatinousjoe7979hard to say it's rampant based off of anecdotal evidence.

[@TheNickvarone]

would love to know who Fabi was talking about

[@da96103]

Time stamp please.

[@FloydMaxwell]

Agree with Ian on both points

[@8964TS]

Crazy idea, but can’t chess just ban bathroom breaks during gameplay, at least for rapid and shorter*? Classical would be trickier but not impossible and there could be set times when players could go so they could be monitored (not watched in the bathroom but at least scanned in and out). It’s not like athletes in other sports take bathroom breaks. You should be able to play for two hours without taking a piss.

[@8964TS]

*I guess nobody is taking toilet breaks during blitz anyway.

[@annakupchik790]

Thanks!

[@Mserb1]

So he’s talking about bortnyk and does that make what hikaru does more impressive

[@gasslighterr]

That's exactly what I thought, I love watching Bortnky's TT streams and he doesn't seem like a cheater, but all of what Fabi said matches up with Bortnyk. I went through their games and other was one where Fabi lost with white and he kept playing against him. Maybe to see if he would blunder or not since there wasn't much time left. The stagnated otb rating also contributes, his rating has hardly changed within the last 5 years. Also he get's top 10 every time and wins every now and then. He seems like the exact player Fabi describes as a cheater but having watched a lot of Bortnyk's streams I don't think he cheats.

[@ivo28182]

When Fabi said the thing about how half of all players have probably cheated at least once, I immediately knew it would be on r/chess. And lo and behold, there's already over 100 comments on the post 😂

[@davddd81]

If Chess was to be a big sport, you would want to build a farraday cage around the player's portion of the room. This essentially ensures that a potential cheater would have to wear the camera,computer,buzzing device on his body. This would be much more difficult to do and I only the most paranoid would still think cheating is going on. Any other method is going to have it's flaws.

[@dr.prantl9877]

I love listening to Fabi!

[@youtubecensoringcomments7427]

We don't care

[@anonanon6764]

Magnus slightly risky play seeking imbalance versus rating difference. White centralized his pieces, went forward only, direct attack. Normal logical time usage. Disrespectful of Magnus to post about anti-cheat immediately after losing.

[@chrisf5828]

The Kamsky argument is compelling but maybe not in the way he means. If top players can protect their rating playing better players and lose rating playing worse players that does not not mean top players are over-rated, it means the RATING SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY BROKEN. This should be obvious. If weak players gain a lot of rating by drawing a top player and top players lose a lot they will all play accordingly. The rating system weighs draws in an arbitrary way. There is no right answer, you just pick weights that sound reasonable. But these numbers have to be weighed against reality because they exist to acheive a GOAL -- that ratings make sense in practice. In practice the top player is penalized so much that you have to pay them up front to participate in tournanents where they are almost certain to lose rating. Remember when Hikaru was #1 in blitz and then went undefeated in the big St Louis blitz tournament and crushing the tournanent dropped his rating to #2? Draws have to be weighted wrong to get that sort of nonsense result. The rating system has to be changed to whatever structure makes the EV expected value of all games roughly similar. Currently the 2400 has a positive EV in a game with a 2700 who faces a negative EV. It is not the proper job of the rating system to force styles of play on different ratings levels or incentive avoiding open tournaments.

[@MarcelsMeinung]

The rating deflation is happening because, chess is getting so optimized due to computer simulation and opening theory, that high end player draw many more games nowadays then in the past. This will continue as long as computer chess and people optimize, until a plateau is reached.

[@ronnaldaman7079]

At one point Fabi says Magnus spoke with an arbiter about the watch. Was it when he started finding himself in a bad position? The whole thing about chess and cheating is reaching absurd proportions. Maybe all serious U S chess tournaments should be held inside the Pentagon? Fabi does mention the difficulty and consequent improbability of someone cheating within the context of current tournaments. I stopped playing a few decades ago. A close to 2200 eco was not exactly a bright star in the sky but nonetheless I did play tournaments and never even considered somebody was cheating against me. Occasionally there might be a whisper between players but if someone did that with me I found it annoying as it distracted and seemed unfair. Having returned - within limits - to chess a few years ago I find so much has changed it does not seem as enjoyable any more.

[@UrnestHemingouey]

01:03:57 Is this Jake Peralta's spirit coming to life?

[@mikemerinoff]

Do you think someone in top 3 in TT cheated in these tournaments for the past month?