Don't Know Mind vs No-Mind

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[@gerald10er]

Seung Sahn's tradition is my main inspiration--from The Compass of Zen. "So if you want to understand the realm of all Buddhas--"what is Buddha?"--first, your mind must become clear like space. At this point, there is no thinking and no desire. From this point, your mind simply reflects the universe, exactly as it is. Your mind can go anywhere with no hindrance. That is our practice: returning to this point, what we often call primary point. How can you return to primary point? Only ask yourself, very deeply, "What am I?" Only don't knowwww. . Keep a don't know mind, and then all your thinking becomes clearer and clearer. Eventually, your mind becomes clear like space...we call that clear-like-space mind enlightenment nature. All Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and demons come from just that point." Seung Sahn's English was pretty basic when he began teaching in the USA, so there are a number of aphorisms such as "I only teach only don't know." I will need to listen to this video more than once--thanks for the post.

[@456creeper]

One thing I'm getting (god I hope this is relevant) from reading Dogen is that the ineffable, the unknowable, the inexpressible, the don't know, is not only not separate from the knowable, and in fact is what makes it knowable, makes it what it is. Maybe no mind is a way of seeing that.

[@cyrilgcoombsiii]

interested in hearing more about this. thank you

[@TooOldFor]

Seung Sahn talks about don't-know-mind quite a bit in his book "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha".

[@snudgegalbraith3447]

Only dont know

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks!

[@HalfAlligator]

@@snudgegalbraith3447 just go straight, try try try for 10000 years

[@VasiliFrankos]

Excellent talk, thank you. This reminded me of two things: a quote from Zhuangzi and a book called Understanding Ignorance. Reading this Zhuangzi quote while sitting in the empty Asian studies room of my University of Maryland (Mckeldin) library changed my life forever: "Your life has a limit but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no limit, you will be in danger. If you understand this and still strive for knowledge, you will be in danger for certain!" (Translation: Burton Watson) A more recent translation I read goes like this: "My life flows between confines, but knowledge has no confines. If we use the confined to follow after the unconfined, there is danger that the flow will cease; and when it ceases, to exercise knowledge is purest danger." (Translation: Angus Graham) Understanding Ignorance is a (philosophy) book by Daniel R. DeNicola, and I think it's relevant to Brad's talk today.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

A similar Latin saying goes: "Ars longa, vita brevis!" Only, antique and medieaval occidental people did not, and could not---because of the limited flow of knowledge between East and West---go "Dào-Zen", that is, at least not in direct acoordance with its Eastern institutional forms; but some "anonymous Euro-Zen" may have existed, later resonating wtih pre-(post-)modern thinkers like G.W. Leibniz, A. Schopenhauer, and M. Heidegger). But the gist (concerning the conditio humana in general, respectively to some common "primordial ground", "liminality" included, so to say) seems about the same.

[@VasiliFrankos]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Thank you for mentioning that Hippocrates quote -- I certainly agree that art (or technique or craft) outlasts the life span of the artist. I like thinking about how that relates to the Chuang Tzu quote -- there's certainly a strong connection there! I think Hippocates' "“The physician must... have two special objects in view with regard to disease, namely, to do good or to do no harm.” (from his "Of the Epidemics") is one of the greatest sets of simple words I've ever heard. Recognizing them in the Bodhisattva Precepts has certainly caught and kept my attention throughout life.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@VasiliFrankos so the quote comes from Hippocrates, interesting! Thanks for the information, I was not sure! Such convergences in thinking (centering around the "basic topos" of "caring" [Ger.: ´Sorge´] about human "Dasein", as Heidegger might put it in accordance with his "fundamental ontology") made Karl Japsers come up with the idea of the "axial age" (that is, "Achsenzeit" in German, literally meaning ´axial time´). It hints at some anthropogene/anthropological constancies, which can serve as one---though not the only one, supposedly---valid/reliable base for intercultural studies.

[@sharongilliland9418]

Yes, tell us more.

[@KenCunkle]

I'm interested in hearing hours and hours of all that. Not all in one video, of course....

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

I heard TNH telling more than once a little story. I’m explaining with my own words what I recall: “A monk was mindfully walking in the forest. He was pleased to hear birds singing. He could appreciate the fresh aroma coming from trees, flowers, plants. He could feel the sunshine caressing his face...he was peacefully enjoying and contemplating on his way all nature splendour. Suddenly a man riding a horse fast as an arrow passed by. The monk asked to the horseman: “Where are you going?”. And the horseman said without stopping: I don’t know ask to my horse!”.

[@HardcoreZen]

That's very profound!

[@Teller3448]

What is the difference between the monk's mind and the horse's mind?

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

@@Teller3448 : The horse is our own running away from what is there mind. It’s the mind that identifies itself with an object, sees the object as a goal to chase after without realising that what he/she is chasing is a delusion created by its own mind. It’s a mind unable to stop its activity thinking entanglement.

[@Teller3448]

@@lorenacharlotte8383 The monk is enjoying this, pleased to hear that, and appreciating everything. How is that different from identifying goals to chase after?

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

@@Teller3448 : I saw sometime ago a black and white very short video by Nishijima Roshi in which he said something alike on these following lines: “When one sits down in zazen is like taking off the lid of a boiling pot (referring to the mind) evaporating in the air”. While the the lid is on in the boiling pot one see things from the individual separate self and because of that one identifies any object as his/her. At those moments one is unaware with the self identification over any object of mind but as soon as one sits down the experience is very different as that becomes part of the vapour coming from the boiling pot.

[@osip7315]

korean zen is definitely its own flavour of zen, seung sahn was always pretty well taking from its repertoire its a very different culture and actually north korea is representative of some aspects like the sloganizing i quite enjoyed my time staying at kwan um centers, the people were nicer than the japanese varieties, and had a bit of madness that obviously suited me

[@1213141516171897]

Came here to learn more about Zen, but now I just dont know. Pun very much intended.

[@gentlemanner]

I'm interested in hearing hours and hours of each one of those things.

[@fartguy69]

Seung Sahn has a great documentary on youtube. Also "Wanting Enlightenment is a big Mistake" is another great book by him

[@jakubbanasiak5563]

I have read Polish translation of "Only Don`t Know" and as I remember Seung Sahn said that when we have a question and we don't know the answer, our minds are in the state of no-thinking. But I am not sure if anyone should trust my memory.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks!

[@Teller3448]

Isn't it impossible to have a question without thinking?

[@jakubbanasiak5563]

@@Teller3448 But he was talking about a situation when someone has asked you a question and you don't know the answer. So you have a void in your mind.

[@kaisersoze9886]

ZmSS has a book called only don't know im pretty sure its a collection of what the koreans call kungans or koan in japan

[@akstiner]

I interpreted this as when I go to fix something, if I think I know what’s wrong with it I tend to screw it all up if I approach it with no mind and no idea what’s going on or what’s wrong with it, I tend to be able to fix it better. My hubris tends to get the best of me in these situations . Thanks for the permission to say “I have no idea”

[@HardcoreZen]

That's interesting. Thanks!

[@mal7900]

I am interested in hours and hours of this. :P

[@jscottbelgo]

Share more about no mind. Thank you.

[@osip7315]

make a donation

[@joeg3950]

I’m interested in hours and hours of No Mind, Don’t Know Mind, etc.

[@saralawlor780]

Thank you Brad. Very interesting talk. 🙏🏽

[@will_110]

Yes, interested in hearing more. Your teaching is invaluable 🤟🤟🤟

[@brookestabler3477]

Love it.

[@fhilbo1701]

I'm interested in hearing hours and hours about no mind, ironic as that may be.

[@HardcoreZen]

OK!

[@Teller3448]

Why ironic?

[@benjaminpepin2247]

I'm interested in hearing about no mind for hours! Lol

[@jme7474]

"Only Don't Know" is Seung San's book. It is a collection of letters that people wrote to him, and his letters in response. Good stuff.

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh yeah! THAT''S the title!

[@fartguy69]

@@HardcoreZen Also, spilling ashes on the Buddha

[@snudgegalbraith3447]

If someone find correct world this stick hit him 30 times, cannot find; this stick hit him 30 times, why find? This stick hit him 30 times.

[@Teller3448]

This stick is used to say 'no'. What is used to say 'yes'?

[@sasefina]

Brad! You are coming up on 10K subscribers for this channel. How will you celebrate?

[@HardcoreZen]

I am? Whoa.

[@briansprenger5578]

A celebratory zazen session is in order

[@clydechamberlain9804]

so Brad...just curious from Canada...What is 'California' cold??? 😏

[@LukePettit]

she got shoshin from zen mind beginners mind like we all did

[@HardcoreZen]

But why does she say "shoshin approach"? That phrase never appears in Suzuki Roshi's book, nor does the word "shoshin."

[@osip7315]

not knowing do know poles of an empty dream

[@ryanmilliken5950]

He got it from Bodhidarma.

[@alextrusk1713]

Are gonna do 5 meo dmt like leo and give us your trip report

[@Teller3448]

That would be too revealing.

[@alextrusk1713]

@@Teller3448 lol I did not mean he had to film it 😂

[@dudeonthasopha]

What are some of these differences you see between zen, chan, son, and thien? Like do they focus on different practices or texts? Like does each tradition have their own Dogen? Or is there crossover between them to branch out or do you just stick with Japanese stuff?

[@Teller3448]

Its like...just like this...like.

[@dudeonthasopha]

@@Teller3448 cool

[@Teller3448]

@@dudeonthasopha Dude, like how is it cool...like?

[@dudeonthasopha]

@@Teller3448 are you being annoying cause I used the word 'like' twice in a comment?

[@Teller3448]

@@dudeonthasopha Its not the use of the word that's annoying.

[@marknoble2030]

I don't mind.

[@dhtm3577]

A good wack might be one way to know it. Also, since all things are empty, it’s possible that both “don’t know” and “no mind” are actually empty! Feel free to continue.

[@Teller3448]

All things are empty? How do you know?

[@dhtm3577]

@@Teller3448 Read the Heart Sutra.

[@Teller3448]

@@dhtm3577 The Heart Sutra starts off with the words..."Thus have I heard". I'm not asking what anyone has heard...I'm asking how you know.

[@dhtm3577]

@@Teller3448 it is a fact, that each “thing” cannot exist without another. I know by being born. Air, a bird, your fingers typing on your device are all comprised of other elements and are not separate. Yes? This is emptiness (of a separate “self”). The Sutra says form does not differ from emptiness.

[@Teller3448]

@@dhtm3577 How do you know its a fact...because you were born? If these other elements are not separate why do you refer to them as 'other'? For hundreds of years after the founding of Buddhism these ideas did not even exist. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvastivada How did they arise? Someone just dreamed them up...thats all. This is what happens when ancient people blunder into the realm of physics.

[@breakthroughs7144]

Interesting!

[@brookestabler3477]

Sure Dude, go deep. I loved this, another guy well informed in eastern traditions first turned on the "don't know" mind using just those words with me. I'd direct you toward something going on on his page (super cool ideas, a mirroring of Eastern and African and generally esoteric spiritual thinking) but am sure your life is full enough.

[@Teller3448]

What is the difference between a 'cool' idea and a 'hot' idea?

[@brookestabler3477]

@@Teller3448 A "hot" idea, just within the context of modern day culture, I'd suggest is something marketable, profitable, but also kind of dangerous. A cool idea (one of the thinkers is doing peace work with the crips and bloods) is one that transfers energy from places aflame, or that's what babbles of the top of my head at the moment.

[@brookestabler3477]

off the top.

[@Teller3448]

@@brookestabler3477 Can the Dharma be described as hot or cool?

[@brookestabler3477]

@@Teller3448 What Dharma? Of the little course thing I'm suggesting with the bloods/crips guy? It's way cool. He's connected to source (the African guy, Orland Bishop) I'm pretty sure. The guy with whom he's conversing is really brilliant, one of my favorite thinkers.

[@briansprenger5578]

I've got half a mind to make some kind of joke in the comment section 🧠

[@HardcoreZen]

Good one!