Harley Davidson 2nd Quarter 2023 Results Reveal Their Future

[@easy537]

I think the real story is that in 2023 2Q Indian Motorcycles sales were up 40% I would love to see a video on this

[@cycletron]

Great point, I'm on it!

[@m3talc0re]

Harley sales drop from 40,000 to 35,000 and their sales are dropping. Indian sales rise from 2,500 to 3,500 and holy shit sales are up! -_-

[@sullythenoob2523]

Indian has the FTR, Harley isn't trying to catch the eye of the younger guys

[@starrider1900]

Fit and finish is top notch on a harley-davidson no one is even close

[@grendelprime166]

This is true. I would say it easily rivals Indian in that regard.

[@Thunder_Bear_mg]

I think triumph's fit and finish is just as good or better.

[@starrider1900]

@@grendelprime166 might want to take a look at Harley davidson paint No one can come close

[@dutchyjhome]

This is going to be a very personal note to you C.J. I sold my Harley and I purchased a Yamaha MT-01, I talked about earlier. Since I no longer am evolved in to whatever may happen in the Harley world, I sincerely lost my interest in Harley related subjects. I therefor will have to let you go. Thank you very much for your, in general, thorough research before you start talking about any subject and have a good one! DutchyJ singing off...

[@cycletron]

Do you know that I cover other motorcycle content besides Harley. I do regular videos on my 2020 Suzuki Katana and 2023 Hayabusa as well as other metric content? Ride safe.

[@cycletron]

Otherwise I will miss your in depth comments and our debates about environmental issues. The MT-01 is a cool bike. Another example of something interesting that was not offered for sale in the U.S.

[@dutchyjhome]

@@cycletron Hey C.J. well yes indeed you are absolutely right. You cover more than just Harley-Davidson news. I will stay, for now, just to see if your channel is providing me with sufficient news and other important information about the other side of the motorcycle spectrum; you'd probably call the Metric Bikes, and more important; news about Motorcycling in general, technological developments, environmental developments, and more; the broad scale of changes that are coming our way globally; USA Green Deal related and so. Then I can and will provide you with the European point of view in this all.

[@thejerseyj5479]

I checked out a couple of CVO's at my local dealership and at $54,000 I think they're worth it. It's not for everyone (including me) but for someone who can afford one, you get a drop dead gorgeous bike.

[@cycletron]

Yes, I agree. They will be worth the price to some people.

[@wwb7091]

@@NMAdv Yeah, but I'm a Boomer who thinks the H-D baggers are ugly.... they look like something right out of the 50s. In addition, their poor performance and handling when compared to most contemporary bikes are another reason to avoid them. The only H-D that interests me is the Pan America.

[@metcruza5536]

Another real good vid man. IF I had a lazy $50k....trust me it wouldn't go into a bike. I'll be happy still buying used...and soft ails not CVOs. But hey that's me

[@cycletron]

Thanks very much! I am with you on that.

[@baymoto553]

Hey CJ. Interesting take on HD as usual. Thanks. As a fellow Hayabusa owner I need to know where you got that cool tee shirt. Cheers

[@cycletron]

Thanks very much! I got this shirt from the Suzuki online store. Here is the link: store.suzukicycles.com/p/peregrine-black-tee/apparel_shirts Now if they would only sell a Katana shirt!

[@baymoto553]

@@cycletron Thanks

[@cycletron]

@@baymoto553 👍

[@garymiller685]

no cvo they look cool but too high price

[@grendelprime166]

The livewire is an awesome bike but it's just too expensive. Interest in it dropped even further when they dropped the HD badge. I don't understand the decisions that were made here.

[@cycletron]

Thank you for your comments. Also by the time they dropped they price on the Livewire the Federal tax credit had expired which I think is hurting them too.

[@my.motorrad]

Kawasaki announced some EVs. Much lower power, but maybe they'll do well for the intended market

[@cycletron]

I agree Jim. They do seem to be pretty low powered, on par with an elevtric scooter

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

People should not buy a new HD until the quality matches the high prices they charge for them.

[@mraidymaddful]

I just looked at the Del Mar. OMFG, who the F**k can afford 15 grand for what is essentially a crap 125 with no range and a two hour charge time. Are HD mad, do they really think young people can afford 15 grand for a machine that is basically not even worth a quarter of what they're charging (forgive the pun) for it. HD will price themselves out of customers in the next few years and I for one won't be at all surprised..........

[@twotone3471]

Well, selling bikes that underperform for premium prices is not an E-Bile thing. Perhaps they will offer downloadable Stage Kits that make their E-bike work as well as it should from day one?

[@willcasp]

Consider the market HD is targeting with electric motorcycles, and that is the commuter market. The mileage range is fine. The cost is in line when you consider the total operating cost of an electric motorcycle is significantly lower than a ICE model. For commuting, the numbers on this electric motorcycle absolutely pencil out. There is a bigger problem, the US market is not a commuter motorcycle market, and HD does not target commuter motorcycle customers.

[@Imsaved777]

Harley Davidson makes a great deal of money also from their service departments.

[@elithegreat6463]

Nice Hayabusa Shirt, I have a craving to get that Bike if my discretionary funds work out,, where did you get the shirt 👍

[@cycletron]

Thank you. I'd say if you can swing getting the GEN3 you should. I am really happy with mine and the anniversary orange is awesome. I got the shirt at the Suzuki online store. Here is the link: store.suzukicycles.com/p/peregrine-black-tee/apparel_shirts

[@elithegreat6463]

@@cycletron That Anniversary model looks amazing, it’s certainly in my cross hairs. I have a 2021 R9T-719 Model, and a 2023 Triumph 900GT-Pro, breaking the news to either of them is difficult 🤔😣, We’ll see ?

[@cycletron]

@@elithegreat6463 Good luck with your decision!

[@brucesantacory1390]

if i was in my 40's and not in my mid 60's i would buy the rights from polaris for the Victory name and start a new motorcycle company building bikes in the USA, but having a range of bikes like HONDA, dirt bikes, dual sports, sport bikes, cruisers and touring, and had i been the CEO of Polaris rather than dropping Victory they should have made that the small bike and performance bike division of Polaris. Their lack of Vision is at best depressing

[@cycletron]

That is an interest idea buying the Victory name. Maybe if someone does that they could also offer replacement parts past the 10 year window from 2017 that Polaris promised.

[@jamesstone1493]

They can overall double down on Older Riders for only work for 10 years at most, and most riders can’t continue!!!!!

[@cycletron]

Agreed. That is why they are hoping that people whi are about ready to hang up riding will move to trikes.

[@willcasp]

Thank you for another video that saves me some time from digging into all the numbers myself. I can now focus on certain aspects of the numbers. I am still in the camp that HD has got to figure out the electric motorcycle for their long term survival. I agree with you that the bigger question is if they have the money to do it. I live in Washington, which is a "CARB friendly" state. California passes new regulations, and I am in one of the 10 states that readily follows them. Using cars as a guide, we are already seeing companies like Stellantis only stocking electric or hybrid cars on dealer lots. You can order ICE models for delivery here, but if you go to the dealer lot, you will not see new ICE models in stock. They are doing this to meet CARB EV annual sales targets. I expect other auto manufacturers to follow suit. As soon as the states realize that the motorcycle manufacturers are flying under the radar on this, I expect the motorcycle dealers to comply. One saving grace here, at least my state has not noticed that HD sells 49 state compliant motorcycles here.. and not CA compliant ones. (motorcycles are considered vehicles, and no exemption for motorcycles on this.. although, CARB does regulate motorcycles differently.. for now)

[@cycletron]

Thank you! You bring up several interesting points. One of them is that what Europe and California require for emissions standards are usually soon adopted by other manufacturers if not the other states themselves. I do think motorcyclists may be on the losing end of additional regulations whether it is for I.C.E. or self-driving requirements etc. at some point. I am from the Midwest but lived in CA for a few years back in the early 90's. At that time there were a ton of Californians retiring and moving to Oregon for what was then a better cost of living. Those transplants seem to bring a lot of their regulatory thinking with them to their new states.

[@willcasp]

@@cycletron I didn't really think much about how motorcycleing doesn't pencil out well with "Vision Zero". As governments adopt these ideas to eliminate traffic fatalities, and if you subscribe to the "conspiracy theory" that the end goal is to get the masses away from the luxury of personal transportation: with this model, maybe motorcycling dies out with the current crop of riders? Horrible to think about. I do wonder how the current strategy you pencil out works out in the end, and that is HD being satisfied with high end, higher margins. If you look at other examples of this road, it ends up with a significantly smaller market share and a smaller dealer footprint. I am thinking more along the lines of an Aston Martin / Rolls Royce, and less along the lines of companies like BMW and Mercedes that are expanding their products and markets. Intersting stuff to think about. Thank you for the content!

[@cycletron]

@@willcasp I think your comparisons with Aston Martin and Rolls Royce is on target. I usually don't buy into the conspiracy stuff, mostly because I don't think governments are competent enough to pull it off. But there is no denying the increasing level of power that seems to be trending into more centralization. I wonder how tempted governments would have been to enforce stay at home orders by shutting cars off 3 years ago. Not unlike how the Canadian PM froze bank accounts of truckers who were involved in civil protests.

[@sathishrao7926]

In another news, Mr Zeitz has expressed happiness over “better than expected response from Indian customers for X440” and claimed that pre-orders have “put smiles on the company’s face” (even though he hasn’t revealed the exact number of preorders) !

[@cycletron]

Yes, Zeitz has mastered the art of not saying anything when he says something. Too bad the investment and media communities don't seem to notice.

[@seavee2000]

Luckily (or not) my only ever "investment" was in a motorcycle. Thank God I don't have money in this clown show, nor continue to "invest". My parts come from 3rd party,and I'll never cross the threshold of a HD dealership. Ever.

[@cycletron]

Yes, that is a solid way to go and no drama!

[@SmittyAZ]

That $1.00 value menu is no longer plus the food is cut back. Should a guy that just bought a new F150 call a '23 CVO rider an idiot for paying so much over what is 'should' have cost? Are you to the point of calling CVO buyers the same thing as Royal owners say to someone that spent 20K on a new busa? My '99 busa was around $10.5K, if I remember correctly? 😁

[@cycletron]

I really don't care what people buy. My point was that the pool of people willing to pay these prices for a new Harley tourer gets smaller each year and HD has no other real sales strategy.

[@SmittyAZ]

@@cycletron Raise the price / profit for each unit, until your regulars won't even buy one?

[@cycletron]

@@SmittyAZ It will happen whether that is their explicit plan or not. But who knows. As another commentor mentioned, the Millennials stand to inherit lots of money from the boomers. Maybe they will eventually decide to ride.

[@domicam100]

Harley reminds me of the old saying a fool and his money..............................

[@user-us1hx2cx3j]

Yes, using Robots to chase me down if I'm late making a payment really makes me appreciate the warmth of Harley's corporate ethos! Btw, personally speaking, I know about as many people interested in buying new CVOs as I know people interested in buying a new Cessna. Young riders, the ones Ive talked to at least, are just not interested in Harleys or evn Indians. Why? Because they more or less identify them with gradpas. Selling CVOs to rich old men like Montgomery Burns will do little to help broaden their appeal.

[@frankfurther3828]

CVO- Fool's Purchase

[@cycletron]

I could see those robots morphing into a robocop situation! Also, I wonder if Montgomery Burns would have Smithers ride in the side car! LOL

[@geneclarke2205]

But wait, what about the Post Malone Harley-Davidson Clothing line. Everyone wants to rap on a CVO. Or is he now a overly commercial pop singer on a CVO???

[@cycletron]

@@geneclarke2205 I have never heard any of his music, but I suppose he has enough tats to be seen on a Harley!

[@frankfurther3828]

@@cycletron I would like to be a fly on the fender of a repossessed HD. Where does it go? and will all the repossessions and subsequent sales of these bikes hurt FHD in '24?

[@geneclarke2205]

Is Polaris just a better managed company than HD? Polaris stock was trading at $101 on Jan 1st and now at $134. Polaris enters a partnership with Zero for their EV powertrain technology and adds that to their long history of ATV engineering and just released the Ranger XP Kinetic which sold out its first 4,000 unit production run in a day. Then they release the class leading extreme duty Ranger XD 1500 with a ProStar 1500cc 3-cylinder engine @ 110 HP with over 70 accessories for farm, industrial, and first responder uses, So in the course months they corner the ATV EV market and then corner the utility duty ICE market leaving competitors in the dust. Polaris appears content to produce 35,000 motorcycles and 10,000 Slingshots per year and not make major investments in this segment. Same with snowmobiles where the market is flat but they appear to be investing in the boat division. They did develop a prototype motorcycle EV but decided the technology isn't advanced enough and there's better opportunities and applications in the off-road market for EV's. Given its product mix, Polaris can drive revenue as the markets shift and utilize engineering and technologies across its product lines. Which again raises the question, how long can HD go it alone as a one trick pony company?

[@cycletron]

To me it shows that Polaris is a much better stock to own the HD. It is always interesting to me when people point out that since HD has been around for 120 years, they will just keep going. Funny that they don't say that about humans! Harley can survive only so many missteps and missed opportunities. I think the healthiest thing that could happen to HD is to be bought out by a different company that is not stuck in the past.

[@turbosure7873]

Since the 2 Harleys I own are both 1979 models Harley hasn't wanted anything to do with me for a long, long time. I think that eventually they will have fewer dealerships and may even let certain dealers downsize out of their way too big, way too expensive destination stores. Harley got hot in the mid 90's and they thought it would last forever, buyers that could easily afford the bike, the expensive upgrades and accessories, the labor to bolt them on and don't forget the $40 t-shirts. Harley forget where they came from and now reality is going to help them to remember.

[@cycletron]

Then you have the AMF era models which I think are becoming more and more sought after by some people. I think you are right that too many HD dealers and their corporate "leaders" will have their reckoning in the coming years.

[@turbosure7873]

Yes, I have 2 bowling ball bikes. I think Harley was better off with AMF than they are now, but that's a discussion for another time. I hope that if Harley thins out their dealers they take customer service into consideration. If they go primarily off of sales we will probably have more horror stories about bad experiences at a Harley dealer.

[@cycletron]

@@turbosure7873 Harley is definitely thinning the dealership ranks but as Zeitz stated awhile back the ones they are targeting for closure "only own one or two stores". To me, that sounds like adios Mom and Pops.

[@xw8462]

As long as their REV engine stays, Harley will sink with it. It failed on VROD, failed on Street 500, it will keep failing.

[@cycletron]

I agree with you. I would also add that the LiveWire will sink Harley too as hardly anyone wants an electric car let alone an electric motorcycle.

[@geneclarke2205]

LiveWire needs a range of models to stay in the game. A Chinese firm CSC is bringing the RX1E EV with panniers and top box to the US at $8,500 + $500 fees and advertised as a daily commuter. For mass market adoption, under $10k price point seems in line with an EV purpose built as a commuter or for last mile delivery work. Eric Buell's Fuell Fllow urban commuter will likely will be an engineering grand slam home run @ $10,500 and this is where LiveWire should be with their development. I believe LiveWire still has $200m to burn through in the next two years and their CEO did say a new model developed by the new management team was coming by the end of the year. Hopefully, this next model will tell the story of LiveWires future. On the EV front, I'm interested now that Chevy will bring back the Bolt with Ultium batteries and Tesla fast charging in late 2024. Yes, EV motorcycles are interesting but I think I'll just invest in a nice small EV auto for around town and short trips and save the weekends for the amazing Z900RS.

[@cycletron]

It may be that Harley is playing the long game for once relative to their EV plans. There really could be a battery breakthrough looming in the next few years but we will need to get the power generation and transmission capacity boosted. I actually think the Z900RS is one of the best bikes out there. My son had to sell his when he moved to St. Louis. Before it was sold I had his bike and my 2020 Katana in my garage at the same time. I actually think the Z900RS is a better bike overall but the Katana "spoke to me" more for some reason. Who said motorcycle preferences had to be rational!

[@williammorris3815]

Harley got my money on two new bikes years ago and they were good bikes. I now own a Triumph and I am looking at BMW and Indian. Sorry Harley, you priced yourself out of the market…and I am an aging Generation JONES.

[@twotone3471]

Stock Buybacks, inflated prices, subpar performance, and withholding any product that would appeal broadly to new riders. It's like Harley is holding up a sign that says "I'm Done" as the baby boomers cease being able to buy v-twin powered mobility scooters. In Harley's case, the fat lady has not only sung, she's had a coronary, been resuscitated, been given a stiff drink, and now is lip syncing due to excessive laryngitis. The company is not going anywhere on talent, but solely on momentum IMHO.

[@cycletron]

🤣🤣I love your analogy!!!

[@oldsoulbiker575]

When should we expect similar videos about other premium brands like BMW and Ducati? Surely their high MSRPs, profit per unit, and sales numbers are worth investigating? As an automotive industry professional for almost 30 years there are many parallels. The “Big 3”, GM, Ford, and Stellantis make the most money on trucks and full-size SUVs. They pay the bills and essentially subsidize the money losing EVs and prior to that small cars that they tried to sell and compete against the Japanese, Europeans, and Koreans. They sell more trucks and suvs than their foreign competitors can dream of and why those foreign manufacturers are trying to build suvs and trucks. Polaris didn’t buy Indian to sell FTR’s and Scouts only. BMW did’t introduce the R18 line to not make money(they probably don’t anyways considering the low sales) but they went where the market allows the greater chance of profit. Don’t want to pay Harley prices? Don’t buy one, there are other manufacturers building cruisers and touring bikes. “But I want the feel, experience, sound, and soul on the cheap”. Fine, plenty of 10, 20 year old Harleys out there that are still going strong. “But I don’t want to buy used, or from a dealer, or have to get parts from Harley”. Well, time for those folks to just move along and embrace the metric motorcycle world. Own your Kawi, Yammi, Honda, whatever, with pride. Just make sure your riding jacket is big enough to fit over the “chip on your shoulder”. My Harley t- shirt fits fine.

[@cycletron]

You make some valid points but I am not the one with a "chip on my shoulder". Some people take any criticism of HD operations way too personally. 😊

[@oldsoulbiker575]

I never implied that you had “the chip…” as I do not know if and what you ride personally. It just appears that there is so much negative Harley content with no real perspective or objectiveness to the industry as a whole. I am not a Harley fanboy as I have owned other makes as well so can compare. Why Harley has become the high price whipping boy while Indian, BMW, Ducati and other premier brands seem to escape such scrutiny for high prices. More affordable bikes should be a priority for ALL OEMs to keep it growing but do it profitably without losing the “soul” of their respective brands.

[@cycletron]

@@oldsoulbiker575 Thanks for your comments. I would say that the goings on at Harley are more interesting to follow than those of the other manufacturers for a lot of reasons. I kind of see it as being similar to the "Arm Chair Quarterbacks" who have opinions about how their local sports team should be run. At least there is an underlying interest there. To the extent that things seem negative with HD it is more a reflection that many people, including me, believe HD could and should be run much better than they have been in recent years. Also I will add this. I have owned several Harleys along with many other brands. I currently own and ride several bikes including one Harley. The Harley experience can be greatly effected by what kind of dealer that you have nearest your location. The one nearest me in K.C. are total scammers. The Mom and Pop HD dealer where I am currently staying in Minnesota is awesome. Dealers for other brands of motorcycles can be jerks too, but they don't seem to be a numerous as the HD ones!

[@oldsoulbiker575]

I respect as to what your motivations might be. I and many others want Harley to be the best they can and we question certain business decisions that may harm them. But others simply find fault in everything because of disingenuous reasons. Can I find things that I would have done differently on all eight of the Harleys I have had, yes, but the positives outweigh the negatives. Where I am in North Dakota I have two dealers within a 90 mile radius of me and have purchased bikes from both, whether it be price, trade vales, and model availability I can go back and forth as needed. Both treated me very well and would recommend either. On the other end of the spectrum, bought a new Moto Guzzi in MSP and that experience was so different. I guess buying an Italian hand built motorcycle is no different than buying a Yamaha generator from them. Yet, still love Guzzis but that dealer, not so much. In the end, I enjoy your videos because of the info you provide and being candid about issues with the Motor Company but titles like “Harley Davidson just needs to f$&k off” seem to be more click bait than an attempt to be objective. When I start to see videos from any KZbinr criticizing other OEM motorcycle manufacturers about quality, higher prices, and lackluster dealers then I will put more credence on their criticisms of HD. Greetings from ND.

[@cycletron]

@@oldsoulbiker575 If you think I haven't been critical of other manufacturers then you haven't watched enough of my videos. I also have one titled why Polaris should F-off. The Harley F-off video is my most viewed video to date, and if you watched that video you will see that I give very specific examples to support my opinions. Also to be clear, I am interested in topics that interest me and many of my viewers. I don't have any interest in being "objective" if that means giving equal time to all bike manufacturers. I have spent more money on Harleys than on any other manufacturer so I have earned my opinions and don't expect everyone to agree with them.

[@anchorsaweigh9893]

I think the only thing I haven’t touched on before is that the level of performance from Indian and Honda have always been above Harley on performance. However over the last couple years those performance differences have become vast. From a Finance Standpoint even if these customers happily turn their bikes back in because they cannot afford them….it doesn’t help Harley make anymore money. Especially with a ballooning inventory. I think Harley will make 125 years but 130 might be tough sell.

[@cycletron]

Those are all great points. I truly believe that HD will become a post motorcycle brand.

[@anchorsaweigh9893]

@@cycletron Unfortunately their are gluttons like me that will continue to build them. I do love Harley’s but I hate the Corporation.

[@karrpilot7092]

Ballooning inventory? The dealers by me don't have much if anything in stock. At least motorcycle wise. What they do have in stock is apparall. As i see it, Harley Davidson is a clothing store that occasionally sells a bike.

[@cycletron]

There must be regional differences with the dealers. It would be interesting to compare the percentage of floor space devoted to non-motorcycle merchandise.

[@karrpilot7092]

@cycletron I think that perhaps Harley Davidson is following Kohls lead, when they partnered up with Amazon. Kohls takes Amazon returns at the back of their stores. Kohls thinks that when you make your Amazon returns, then they will guilt you into shopping, and spending your money. Harley Davidson pretty much knows that the majority of people who come in won't buy a motorcycle. But they might walk out with a tee shirt. I have seen at least 50% of the floor space, if not more, dedicated to clothing at the dealerships by me. As well as ones that I visit on my vacations. The interesting things are that none of the salesmen ever offer me a test ride, some never introduce themselves, and many never get out of their chairs. In different states. It's not that I am a freeloader and looking for a handout. I am not. I just wanted to see if Harley Davidson operated any differently from state to state. It appears not....