Church is just people getting together and playing make believe - Bill Guthrie

[@anrose8335]

As a woman I was King James Only, but didn't pray out loud (as we were not allowed, being female). When I finally stopped going to church at 75 and checking out KZbin videos concerning atheism, Matt Dillahunty and Tracie Harris made perfect sense to me, as did Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, in a way that no church could ever do. It was like "coming home" to the logical part of my brain. Freedom at last!

[@billguthrie2218]

Wow! Finally allowed yourself to make sense. Congrats on your freedom!

[@billguthrie2218]

What made you decide to actually be open to question and start looking?

[@anrose8335]

@@billguthrie2218 When the pastor of the small fundamentalist christian church I was attending and playing the piano at solemnly announced to the congregation that women should not cut their hair I felt embarrassed up there on stage. He later barred me from wearing jeans at worship. (I never even spoke out loud in worship services for chrissake!) So I stayed home. My only social outlet was the KZbin which I watched at home, as I had no other friends and knew I had to restructure my life completely. At first I would watch KZbin videos put out by different sects of christians. The more I watched, the more confused I'd get. I realized I was searching for the truth - wherever it was. No more bullshit. Then I hit on The Atheist Experience. Matt and Tracie blew my mind with their complete honesty and logic. A few months later I "discovered" Hitchens and Dawkins books, as well as a number of other books. My first one was "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright, which totally unnerved me. As a young girl I was brought up by nuns in catholic schools, and kept to myself alot playing piano. Later on I played for churches and married and divorced twice (no children, thank goodness.) I am now married for the third time with an elderly fundamentalist christian gentleman (I am 7 years his senior) for 4 years now, and obviously since I turned atheist we don't see eye to eye, so in order to keep the peace between us we have agreed to live apart. Now I happily workout every day in the gym, seeking to build my body as well as my social life. No need for anything "spiritual."

[@billguthrie2218]

@@anrose8335 Wow. Those nutty fundamentalist preachers sure do and say the craziest things. That's an interesting story. Thanks for sharing. KZbin is awesome. I love Matt and Tracie, too. And Hitchens debates with Christians are always a joy to watch . He is so witty and funny and totally thrashes them.

[@totonow6955]

​@@anrose8335I wish we could hang out. I'm a 57.year old woman and I really relate to your story. The problem with KZbin is that's not possible. ❤ ya sis.

[@carolwilliams8511]

Neither of you have wasted your lives. You have achieved a lot and ended up humble, enquiring and speakers of truth. Amazing to me.

[@billguthrie2218]

Well,.. I think we've tried to make the best of what we learned through it all. I wouldn't recommend anyone go through a similar upbringing. Seems much better to live a life not tainted with religious delusion.

[@cheesesteak983]

@@billguthrie2218so much this

[@gbtusa1325]

I've watched many ex-christian and ex-muslim shows in the last year or so, but, Tim mills is my favorite. I love the way you give time to each person without cutting them off or try to force your opinion on the other speaker. Greatly appreciate what you do.

[@kindlerashod]

What ex-muslim shows do you recommend? So far, I've just been listening to ex-Christian shows.

[@lil-al]

"You can't unlearn what you've learned." SO TRUE!!! Once that cat is out, it's never going back! (Please don't put cats in bags)

[@deewesthill1213]

@@fukpoeslaw3613 For that you should put them in a pet carrier, not a bag!

[@jadonclifton]

Well cats often put themselves in bags so….

[@Beegee1952]

Bill is so right about the harm caused by Christianity. I have had a great deal of rejection in my life, the the rejection I felt from God tops it all. Learning and accepting religion is pure myth has been very healing.

[@billguthrie2218]

Yah. It takes years to overcome the harm. And I don't think you ever totally get over it. The sadness of wasted years, bad decisions, and lost opportunity never totally go away.

[@AngryBilleh]

@@billguthrie2218 just start enjoying your life, it's all we can do is enjoy each day we got, and we got you Bill 👍

[@billguthrie2218]

​@@AngryBilleh I have ... it's been nearly 30 years now.... Learned to dive, got a pilots license, traveled.... A poem I wrote for my sister... God has never been there. (But, my sister always was.) Since entering life’s journey, she’s been there by my side. I’d say “This is my sister”. I say those words with pride. The world was full of wonder. So much to see and do. She’d say, “I really like this.” I’d say, “I like it, too”. With poodle we called Pepi, and Siamese cat named Ming Our days were filled with playing and exploring everything. One thing seemed strangely absent, well, really, not so odd. That everywhere we laughed and played, we never saw a god. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- We’d walk to Whitney school each day to learn our ABC’s. They sent us off to Sunday school and gave us brain disease. They told us that the Bible said some God out there was real. They told us what we ought to think and how that we should feel. They said that we were evil, but the blood of Jesus saved. The chains of superstition now had our minds enslaved. Well, this is how our lives began, and it’s all true, I swear. There was no god around. Just ask my sister, she was there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some holy men we trusted made the claim they talked with God. So young and gullible, how could we know they were a fraud? They told us without Jesus, it was sure we’d go to hell. We drank the Christian koolaide and into its trance we fell. With zeal and great conviction started sharing God's solution. Took way too long to figure out it’s all just mind pollution. Oh what a fool believing things I could not see or feel This god was just imagined. My sister, she was real. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The day I left for Bible school, I saw my sister cry. I left her with her husband, and with Casey goofy guy. It didn’t take me long before, I came to realize. That “holy book” I trusted in, was filled with countless lies. My eyes began to open, saw this Bible God was fake. I asked too many questions, so, they burnt me at the stake. Through years of blind devotion, no god had ever cared. I always had my sister and the love we’ve always shared. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When loves dreams turned to nightmares with a husband or a wife. And tragedy and losses seemed to rain down on our life. Well meaning poised zombies said, “Just trust Gods love and grace.” We’d smile real nice, but inside we’d just punch them in the face. Imagined Gods don’t give a damn. They’re always on vacation. Our comfort came from sibling love and caring conversation. These truths are so important. I’m sharing them because No God has ever been there, but my sister always was. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those visits to the psych ward when our parents lost their mind. We listened to each other ask,”Where is this god that’s kind?” Religion is a virus making people act insane. To cry out to an absent god is certainly in vain. Religion’s a placebo that may get one through some trouble. Please realize the price you pay for living in a bubble. Real love for one another in this world is what is needed. Not some imagined love of God. That’s what we both conceded. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- With chains of bondage broken, we could live a life that’s free. Just like two happy towheads, just the way we used to be. My sister took me diving way down deep beneath the waves. Donned scuba gear, saw sunken ships, and underwater caves. I earned my pilots license and we flew high in the sky. “I can’t believe we’re doing this””How beautiful.” “Oh my”. From heights to depths we traveled through the clouds and underground. That brother/ sister love was there……No god was ever found. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Zealand, Caribbean, and New York City too. On Brooklyn Bridge at Disneyland in San Diego zoo Saw turtles, squid and sea slugs and giant jelly fish , In glow worm caves, on jungle trails, for lunch some fancy dish Picasso, and The Guggenheim, O’Keefe, Monet, The Scream Amazing things we’ve done and seen. It’s almost like a dream. On beaches in Hawaii, at Broadway shows at night My sister being by my side makes everything seem right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha, Maharaj, and J Krishnamurti too. Have many words of wisdom, which I’ve come to know as true. Trust nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. Trust loving intuition, and live a life that’s free. A god’s just wishful thinking, a grasping out for love. Love’s only with the ones you see, not in the sky above. Wake up, become enlightened. Observation will reveal…. Gods love is just imagined, but my sister’s love is real.

[@AngryBilleh]

@@billguthrie2218 very well put bub, I'm gonna enjoy everyday of my life as well, to both of us🍻

[@deewalker4789]

This is a beautifully written & touching poem. Thank you for sharing.

[@henrim9348]

Critical thinking is an amazing skill. Thanks for another great interview.

[@billguthrie2218]

Sadly, critical thinking is not encouraged or nourished in Christianity...just blind faith. Such a waste of intellectual potential. Creates religious zombies repeating memorized mantras. So sad.

[@edwinf4524]

Church is like Freddy Mercury said: “Show must go on!” 95% of the pastors and leaders of the church don’t believe in the story of the gospels. But it’s hard to take off the hand/fingers that feed you. Greetings from Germany

[@richardwilliams473]

Going to church is like going to a Union meeting where everyone is agreeing with each other and dare anymore disagree

[@tommihail6564]

'The church is like the mafia they kill their own'' (woody Allen.😂

[@tealx2014]

For me, church was like going to a funeral every Sunday! Rehashing Jesus’s death every Sunday and nothing happening, made me even more depressed!!! I put a stop to the death ritual and reclaimed my brain!!!

[@Ujasoncook9267]

I felt weirdly at peace as a Catholic during mass. We all seemed to be in harmony. It's just group psychology, like being an alumnus of a university and watching them play football or basketball long after you graduated.

[@timberskid]

@@Ujasoncook9267 just another form of collectivist mystical tribalism.

[@russe130]

That's the real truth there

[@marycollis6900]

I found the whole discussion of Free Will really helpful. That none of us really chooses our beliefs. We were indoctrinated as children for the most part. I’ve tried to work out when I became so susceptible to these ideas of faith in Christ, but realise I was primed for it by a large extended family of fundamentalist believers from infancy. There was likely not going to be any escaping it until I was much older. I didn’t want to escape. I loved my ‘captor’ and fully trusted my life to his care- almost 6 decades. Until I didn’t, then the scales fell from my eyes. I’ve felt exasperation with myself for having been so blind for so long- but this talk helped me see so many choices were inevitable, giving my formative training. Thanks for these long explorative interviews which draw out these things.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you found the discussion helpful. We were victims of our indoctrination. Sooooooo happy to have escaped.

[@gregrose3997]

Great conversation. I really enjoyed listening to Mr Guthrie's story......bravo!

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you. It is encouraging to know others found it helpful or enjoyable.

[@heidibayse4177]

My dad (pastor) studied Greek for better interpretation of the Bible, but did not come to the same conclusions. I think the emotional stability of a person makes a huge difference and fear or anger prevented my dad from recognizing what Tim and Bill learned. I appreciate Tim's interviews and would give anything for a redo of life after my own wake up call in my late 40's. Thank you Tim and Bill!

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think we all wish we had a do over option.

[@heatherclark8668]

When I first started to unravel the myth of Jesus, I kept on saying to him that I was sorry I was doubting him but I had to know the truth. I was so used to thanking God for everything that when I started to question whether or not he was real, I had to laugh at myself when I kept on thanking God for showing me that he wasn't real! When I finally accepted that God is not real, I felt as though I were falling and there was nobody there to catch me I thought back to all the times when I was in really difficult situations and I relied on god to help me But he hadn't been helping me at all. It was scary at first but then I realised that I had to grow up

[@MikeB-ir8cn]

Excellent story bill, thanks. I felt it started slowly, but you really have been around the Christian "block". You covered alot of bases through your honest inquiries.

[@billguthrie2218]

Agreed. Kind of a boring life story until my born again experience, then Bible college.

[@michaelhodges8005]

Thank you for sharing... You all are making a difference in helping others... Questioning things are very good think... Critical thinking is a great thing

[@solomonessix6909]

This is such a great interview! I find so much value in his research and knowledge of Greek to decode and clarify the content of the Bible. Thank you.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Bill is a really cool guy, with a very, very interesting background. Like: reading the bible in Greek ! and seeing, plainly, that it was made up vs the "lukewarm, I'm satisfied" christian who accepts the cherry picked verses, slathered with dogmatic, exegesis. Like: seeing the psychological damage it causes and trying to help others avoid it; properly calling it a cult and a (cultural) cancer. Like: pointing out that he just wants to find out the truth, and that the facts just don't support any tenets of the creed of christianity. Nice to hear Bill sounding that he is living life, especially on Sundays. Life is a journey and I don't think too much time was really wasted based on his growth.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@davida.taylor8444]

Outstanding interview. I can relate to much of this. I'm amazed, though, that even after 30 years, since his deconversion in '92 that this is still fresh on his mind. He hits home with his discussion of losing autonomy, not being able or even allowed to think, being taught to hate yourself and put yourself to death, and you're very right with how deep the roots go especially once you start sawing off branches.

[@dmills7375]

Two related points really resonated with me. One was the fact that many Christians prefer not to think deeply wound “Jesus Loves Me This I Know.” That’s enough for them, and the contradictions don’t matter. The other point had to do with thought autonomy, which is to say many feel empowered to decide what others should/should not believe. They become especially uncomfortable when fellow Christians stray from those comfortable confines.

[@renny3816]

Thank you for this channel. I learn something new every single day. Bill knows what he is taking about, I really loved this interview.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you. So glad you got something out of it.

[@tklyte]

"Once you've seen it, you can't unsee it" ... Well said, Tim. Bill was a great guest and really enjoyable to listen to. You've gotta respect someone who cares enough about their faith to learn Greek. You can't unlearn facts. One of the things theists don't get about atheists is that it's not that we don't want to believe, it's that we can't. It's equivalent to trying to unscramble an egg.

[@billguthrie2218]

And like Tim said...you can't get most Christians to look so they will see. The willful ignorance is so frustrating to encounter... Or more like stubborn ignorance.

[@tklyte]

@@billguthrie2218 For most Chritians, it's the death of an identity. When I left, I missed church and church friends so much I would cry myself stupid...but I couldn't pretend anymore no matter how hard I tried.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@tklyte So true. The complex psycho-social web that has been fostered for years. Once one leaves, a whole new identity has to be figured out. Who am I? That is where some of the contemplative gurus I read were helpful. Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, J Krishnamurti, etc. and continued studies in psychology. Meditation as well. I did a 10 day silent Vipassana retreat 2 years ago. That was an experience.

[@pjj.5649]

absolutely, once the truth is uncovered, if you tried to go back, your mind would quit on you on the spot.

[@tommihail6564]

When Bill mentioned Hell being forever then doing his Greek studies he brought this to my mind..In the original Greek the word for 'Forever' is 'Aion' which means Age or Epoch...it was poorly translated to scare people by the church..it seems that 'Education is an enemy to religion''...Also christians can't get their 'salvation mantra' in agreement as many churches disagree with eachother...I was recently talking to a friend from the pentecostal church and told her 'universalism' thought runs through the NT...As an example from Christ himself saying to the ones he gave the biggest tongue lashings by calling the pharysees 'snakes and vipers''...''I tell you the truth The prostitute and tax collector will get into Heaven BEFORE YOU'!!! Thanks Tim for always educating people before they become gullible only to waste their years away without educating themselves...cheers from Australia.😊

[@billguthrie2218]

Yes, I saw that as well in my Greek studies. Again, learning Greek opened my eyes to the ambiguity and dishonesty in the translations.

[@Ujasoncook9267]

@@billguthrie2218 One of the fastest growing segments of people deconverting are first year seminary students. Getting some of the history and learning the languages might end up being the undoing of religion in the future.

[@tklyte]

I noticed when I was a believer that Christians love their hell. They like knowing that other people and not them are going there and when you try to take hell away, they call you a heretic. Bishop Calton Pearson had one of the original mega-churches in Tulsa OK until he changed his mind about hell and 6000 people abandoned his congregation just for that. You would think that people who claim to love others so much would be happy to learn that Hell doesn't really exist...but you'd be wrong.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@tklyte Yah. It's like they know if eternal torment isn't a real threat, their entire house of cards collapses.

[@ronjohnson4566]

Bill, you remind me of C Bees in the Navy. They are builders/construction workers. The ones i met 50 years ago, were a live and let live group. They worked all day building structures and solving all those unforseen problems that builders run into. And, when they were done for the day it was laugh love eat drink and be merry. I was coming out (sexually) in the navy. And, I confided in them many evenings. They didn't judge. I was just another person they had met. I remember the great times and the acceptance they allowed. Keep thinking, keep looking and most of all keep enjoying your life. If you have time and the desire, turn over every jot and tittle. Enjoy what you find.

[@billguthrie2218]

A poem I wrote for my sister... God has never been there. (But, my sister always was.) Since entering life’s journey, she’s been there by my side. I’d say “This is my sister”. I say those words with pride. The world was full of wonder. So much to see and do. She’d say, “I really like this.” I’d say, “I like it, too”. With poodle we called Pepi, and Siamese cat named Ming Our days were filled with playing and exploring everything. One thing seemed strangely absent, well, really, not so odd. That everywhere we laughed and played, we never saw a god. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- We’d walk to Whitney school each day to learn our ABC’s. They sent us off to Sunday school and gave us brain disease. They told us that the Bible said some God out there was real. They told us what we ought to think and how that we should feel. They said that we were evil, but the blood of Jesus saved. The chains of superstition now had our minds enslaved. Well, this is how our lives began, and it’s all true, I swear. There was no god around. Just ask my sister, she was there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some holy men we trusted made the claim they talked with God. So young and gullible, how could we know they were a fraud? They told us without Jesus, it was sure we’d go to hell. We drank the Christian koolaide and into its trance we fell. With zeal and great conviction started sharing God's solution. Took way too long to figure out it’s all just mind pollution. Oh what a fool believing things I could not see or feel This god was just imagined. My sister, she was real. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The day I left for Bible school, I saw my sister cry. I left her with her husband, and with Casey goofy guy. It didn’t take me long before, I came to realize. That “holy book” I trusted in, was filled with countless lies. My eyes began to open, saw this Bible God was fake. I asked too many questions, so, they burnt me at the stake. Through years of blind devotion, no god had ever cared. I always had my sister and the love we’ve always shared. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When loves dreams turned to nightmares with a husband or a wife. And tragedy and losses seemed to rain down on our life. Well meaning pious zombies said, “Just trust Gods love and grace.” We’d smile real nice, but inside we’d just punch them in the face. Imagined Gods don’t give a damn. They’re always on vacation. Our comfort came from sibling love and caring conversation. These truths are so important. I’m sharing them because No God has ever been there, but my sister always was. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those visits to the psych ward when our parents lost their mind. We listened to each other ask,”Where is this god that’s kind?” Religion is a virus making people act insane. To cry out to an absent god is certainly in vain. Religion’s a placebo that may get one through some trouble. Please realize the price you pay for living in a bubble. Real love for one another in this world is what is needed. Not some imagined love of God. That’s what we both conceded. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- With chains of bondage broken, we could live a life that’s free. Just like two happy towheads, just the way we used to be. My sister took me diving way down deep beneath the waves. Donned scuba gear, saw sunken ships, and underwater caves. I earned my pilots license and we flew high in the sky. “I can’t believe we’re doing this””How beautiful.” “Oh my”. From heights to depths we traveled through the clouds and underground. That brother/ sister love was there……No god was ever found. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Zealand, Caribbean, and New York City too. On Brooklyn Bridge at Disneyland in San Diego zoo Saw turtles, squid and sea slugs and giant jelly fish , In glow worm caves, on jungle trails, for lunch some fancy dish Picasso, and The Guggenheim, O’Keefe, Monet, The Scream Amazing things we’ve done and seen. It’s almost like a dream. On beaches in Hawaii, at Broadway shows at night My sister being by my side makes everything seem right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha, Maharaj, and J Krishnamurti too. Have many words of wisdom, which I’ve come to know as true. Trust nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. Trust loving intuition, and live a life that’s free. A god’s just wishful thinking, a grasping out for love. Love’s only with the ones you see, not in the sky above. Wake up, become enlightened. Observation will reveal…. Gods love is just imagined, but my sister’s love is real. by Bill Guthrie... November 2019

[@deant3980]

I'm a talented poet. Poetry sucks

[@Rupunzelsawake]

Awesome poem.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@Rupunzelsawake Thank you. Please share.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@deant3980 ..and your motivation for that comment was...?

[@fumipie3644]

Love love love this poem. How can I get a copy please?

[@canwelook]

2 hours well spent listening to Bill's story

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you.

[@joycesky5041]

Yes Christians pretend to know thing’s that they don’t know. 🤪😵‍💫🤪😵‍💫🤪 My OWN proverb…I lean to my OWN understanding. EXCELLENT PRESENTATION!!! Thanks Bill and Tim.😀🌹🌹🌹🌹

[@billguthrie2218]

Yah, it's pretty comforting to pretend you know. But, the amount of work it takes to maintain the delusion can be exhausting. Some people just find the insecurity of the unknown and no sky daddy watching over them unbearable.

[@paulvinsonhaler6811]

One of the best interviews so far. Great stuff.

[@pjj.5649]

Of all the interviews I've watched on this channel and each one has plucked a page out of my life, Bill's has hit home most precisely. I traveled almost the same reading and listening route and ended in the same place, trying to make sense/reality out of myth and fantasy. I Iean toward agnostic as I know I was created by an bigger 'entity' but it sure wasn't some manmade, make it up as you go along religion/god and all the useless ritual, procedure and rules that govern it. So well put, the "church is people getting together and PLAYING make-believe." The most damaging part about it is the destruction and control of a person's mind. so glad I got out!!!

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you. So glad you got something out of it. It is encouraging to hear similar stories.

[@GreenMM_11]

That title is everything.

[@billguthrie2218]

So true.

[@jitendraisaacs3019]

Best thumbnail...which hits the nail hard in the coffin called religion

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

Such a great interview, thanks Tim and Bill. You can really sense the anguish, and the cruel and poignant irony that the Christians who were the most fervent, earnest, and diligent in studying the Bible were ultimately exiled from their communities (such as Tim and Bill). Fortunately, the truth has its own rewards to make it worthwhile. But my heart aches for those who must suffer rejection from their community and loved ones. Hats off to those who have the courage to search for the truth no matter where it leads. The great thing is that as more people deconvert, they hopefully don't have to feel so alone by hearing these testimonials.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, it certainly is much easier to find like minded support now than when I deconverted in 1992. Very encouraging to see. The internet and social media have been a game changer. Christianity is having a harder time concealing its lies and oppressing and ostracizing those who see through the fraud.

[@sabinorion]

This was such an eye opening conversation. Thank you so much Bill and Tim. 🔥👊🏻🖤

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Sabin! I appreciate that. Bill's story is amazing and I was honored to have him walk us through it.

[@billguthrie2218]

I'd like to know... What parts did you find most eye opening?

[@carmelabarujel6611]

I have been playing make believe in church my whole life? 😂😂😂

[@HarmonicAtheist]

110%

[@billguthrie2218]

Yep. So did I. Crazy, huh? Realizing it is awakening to reality.

[@James-ms2mx]

@@HarmonicAtheist I’m sorry but I didn’t know where to reach out to you. I hear you often say that the Bible borrowed from ancient writers and stories like the Zodiac, Dionysus, Virgil, Plato, Pythagoras, and Euripides. I’ve looked but I can’t find any original sources of these writings that look like the Bible. Especially Dionysus. Can you point me to the original writings that say this? All I can find is people making these claims but I don’t see it in the original writings. Thanks!

[@carlo6912]

Thank you for all you do, it is greatly appreciated. Have you considered collaborating with others on Sunday mornings to share content with us as our family members head out to church? I think a lot of us who used to attend church miss the sense of community.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Hi, Carl! Sunday mornings are currently my main time each week to do interviews, but I may shift that if/when I work from home doing KZbin full time.

[@carolwilliams8511]

How about finding a Universalist Unitarian community? Many of these are atheists but their communities are beautiful and spiritual, ethical and caring.

[@RealityMatters343]

I loved when Bill got into the Greek/Hebrew language for himself and realized that an immortal 'soul' and 'hell' as an place of eternal torture just aren't anywhere in the Bible. My encounter with a Jehovah's Witness woke me up the same way Bill woke up - they showed me the Hebrew and Greek words that are incorrectly translated as 'hell' in King James and demonstrated what those words meant in other contexts - and proved beyond doubt those words do NOT MEAN HELL. Once that window opened, I was thirsty to learn everything I could learn about the history of the bible and what else I had been misled about. I saw the same 'out of context' problems that Bill saw with the so-called prophesies of Matthew. Deconstruction from Christianity happened very, very rapidly once I understood the timeline and evolution of the bible and it is not the word of any god. It was not the outcome my Jehovah Witness coworker had hoped for - obviously. But to this day I am grateful that she freed me and doesn't even know it.

[@billguthrie2218]

Thanks for sharing. Once one starts investigating with intellectual honesty, the house of cards starts to collapse.

[@Ronnymikkonen2686]

The Catholic church invented hell in the middle ages. That's why it doesn't say so in the Bible.

[@johnjohnson1657]

Outstanding interview. Kudos again.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, John!

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you.

[@johnjohnson1657]

@@billguthrie2218 we have come to the same conclusions and asked "what the hell is going on here"???...now we know and talk about freedom 😎

[@billguthrie2218]

@@johnjohnson1657 Ironic... The truth has set us free.

[@johnjohnson1657]

@@billguthrie2218 Indeed...go figure, eh? ;)

[@donaldhawkins5209]

Tim great guest he has spoken with great wisdom he would make a great counselor as would you Tim you show that you don't need god to love your fellow man. love all people. Trust a few. Do harm to none

[@kevinslyter]

I’m thankful I got out while I’m young

[@johno990]

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." - John Lennon

[@billguthrie2218]

Awesome song.

[@tiffanysmith7419]

The Chicago place was Pacific Garden Missions. It was right around the corner from my dorms when I went to college there. The entire block by it was homeless people. There were a couple men that would stand out on State Street preaching with a megaphone. My best friend came to visit once and we were walking arm in arm down State Street. We were straight as could be, and both Christians at the time. One of those pastors saw us, assumed we were lesbians and started screaming we were going to hell.

[@ourearthlyjourney5658]

Tim Mills, you do amazing work and your videos are of so much comfort to me in my deconversion process. I believe the radio show you both were trying to recall at about 23:45 into this video was called, "Unshackled" from Pacific Garden Mission. Actually, that radio show started an anxiety disorder that I have to this day (called OCD scrupolosity). I was that sensitive person that took all of that in to my heart. I have deconverted entirely from Christianity, but I still have a tremendous fear that I will be abandoned or rejected by God and either annihilated or cast into some hellish void. I still have issues to this day.

[@billguthrie2218]

Realizing the Bible is fiction and of course the hell doctrine was huge in my giving it up. If you still have fears of hell, I might recommend the book by Fudge I mentioned. He also has videos on youtube. There even an excellent movie on his life and struggles with the hell doctrine.. Hell and Mr Fudge. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWeZeYNjaK2ClaM

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thank you so much! It makes my day to hear things like that. I am sorry for the rough road you've been on. My best suggestions are to: 1) dive deep into the origins of the mythology, ie Hades, Tartarus, etc., and 2) perhaps it's better to just not study anything for a bit and just learn to soak up the beauty of life, etc. Either way, I wish you peace and healing. --Tim

[@ourearthlyjourney5658]

@@billguthrie2218 Thank you! ❤

[@ourearthlyjourney5658]

@@HarmonicAtheist Thank you, and thank you for everything you do! ❤

[@newyorkchamp9110]

Covering the topics peace brother

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you.

[@andrewwright9960]

God wants a relationship with us yet he stays hidden and doesn't answer prayers. Does God really want to save everyone? How is he doing that ?

[@elizabethbucalo5315]

Praying is a waste of time.

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

The power is already within us that’s why. There’s no need for religion, church, a pastor, or rituals to get on your knees to beg. You will not get what you want.

[@kaydee096]

I am very interested in some of the literature you reference. could you point me in the direction of the 6 books of acts? i can't find any info on them.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Hi, I can't elaborate myself here, but these kinds of websites might be a good place to start: www.earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha/

[@DoctaOsiris]

Jack of all trades, master of none, I've been called that a few too many times 🤣

[@deant3980]

It's not something to be proud of

[@GonzalesLanguages]

As s Southern Baptist I identify with your story. Tks.

[@peterprentice9179]

church is just a club

[@heatherclark8668]

In the end, I went to church for the fellowship and the pot luck lunches I miss the part luck lunches

[@Neon-Shadowcaster]

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. 😀

[@billguthrie2218]

So? Did you watch the interview?

[@Neon-Shadowcaster]

​@@billguthrie2218 Yes, I really appreciate you telling your story on Tim's podcast 🤩. I think it helps a lot of people on their way out of religion. Thank you ✌.

[@oldmandan4244]

I grew up in the Baptist Bible Fellowship International. My parents were (mom still is) missionaries to Argentina. My brother is a missionary there too. I went to that school in Missouri, Baptist Bible College. In fact all four of us brothers went there. What a horror show.

[@billguthrie2218]

They are a cult. When were you at that college?

[@oldmandan4244]

@@billguthrie2218 81 and 82, felt really good to leave it.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@oldmandan4244 I was at PCBBC 81-84

[@garyrolen8764]

Church was the original social networking. That's really all there is to it. Extra points for those who can pretend the best and not break character.

[@graceorchard]

I appreciate the stories of these 2 men. I love logic and resonate with a lot of they're saying, however i think it makes great sense to acknowledge and honor a wise and loving Creator.

[@billguthrie2218]

How do you acknowledge something which has no evidence of existing?

[@graceorchard]

@@billguthrie2218 Bill, thank you for engaging me with a question. I'm here to learn. My response is this: Not acknowledging that a Creator exists would mean "believing" that we and the whole universe exist by luck of the draw. Is that plausible or far-fetched?

[@billguthrie2218]

@@graceorchard Now you moved the goal post. You said " a wise and loving " creator. No reason to believe in a wise and loving creator.... could be something else.... or , sure... the universe could just be as it is because of "luck".

[@graceorchard]

@@billguthrie2218 To my logical mind, it is completely far-fetched to think that the universe exists by chance. So...I would therefore conclude, and it makes sense to me, that a Creator who created the universe with at least one planet occupied by humans for their flourishing is a Creator that couldn't be anything other than wise and loving.

[@graceorchard]

Again, thanks for engaging the conversation.

[@agunnayaman6300]

I agree 100%. Thanks Bill and Tim

[@montagdp]

Man, I have so much respect for this guy for teaching himself Greek and Hebrew and finding out the problems with the Bible on his own. Critical New Testament scholarship was the straw that broke the camel's back for me too, but I wonder if I ever would have learned about it without the internet.

[@billguthrie2218]

Yah. The internet was a game changer. Sure made it a lot easier to see through the fraud.

[@scottlewis2883]

Looks interesting! 👍🏼 I’ll be listening soon. 🏕😊

[@billguthrie2218]

Enjoy!

[@scottlewis2883]

@@billguthrie2218 Thanks Bill. I listened and did enjoy your very interesting story. I can relate to so much in it. I’m still digesting much of it. My own story is similar in some ways but of course, different too. I’m not as far along but very intrigued and taking in more knowledge and truth all the tim. Thanks to you and Tim for the interview and sharing your lives. 👍🏼

[@billguthrie2218]

@@scottlewis2883 Tell me about your story.

[@scottlewis2883]

@@billguthrie2218 I’ll be happy to share some of my experiences, but it will take awhile, and I probably should use another format rather than this comments section. Do you have an email you care to share here? Or some other public blog thing?

[@billguthrie2218]

@@scottlewis2883 I think you could just share bits at a time here for others to also read and comment and be encouraged by. We're all in this (out of the cult) together.

[@russe130]

After studying on my own and finding out the bible really doesn't teach hell and eternal torment, my pastor refused to even talk to me about it and eventually asked me to leave the church.

[@billguthrie2218]

No surprise. You'll "corrupt" his flock and cash cow. I tried to talk to one of my best Christian friends who had become a minister and had the proverbial door slammed in my fact with "you're wrong".. "unbiblical!" end of discussion. So, what are you doing now?

[@andrewwray8778]

I think the radio show you're talking about might be "Unshackled"... i remember hearing that all the time!

[@billguthrie2218]

Yes.

[@jamesgastaldo4710]

Church is a donation center and the preacher is a used car salesman ! Amen !!!!!

[@bpmaclean]

Slow starting video, but I'm so glad I watched. Thank you both. Cheers

[@billguthrie2218]

Agreed. The story of my religious childhood is pretty boring. Bible college is where the drama begins.

[@freeman8759]

How is it that we come up to the same conclusions 😂!?!?!?😊 I said the same thing when I finally hit me.

[@karendunn8055]

I am out of Jesus but now investigating Judaism . I would like to know what both of you could share your knowledge on Judaism? Thank you for all of these shows. I really needed this today. ❤

[@billguthrie2218]

Judaism is just another man made religion.

[@billguthrie2218]

What did you find to be the most helpful part of this interview?

[@karendunn8055]

You both are so gentle in speech and your reasoning and both of your stories resonate with me. I have stepped away from Christianity very recently because the gospels for one, are very antisemitic against the Jews and Pilate was just given a free pass. And many other reasons.So I began questioning all of the NT but the OT besides some of their stories that seem outlandish at first glance does not go against anybody and the message is God does not want anyone to hate him. Like the story of all these men getting circumcised and they killed them all was the brothers of Dinah who had been raped and stolen. The brothers taking revenge for what the son of the king did. But the Father was not happy that they killed all of them ..and later they did pay for their actions by not receiving their inheritance from their father. My answer to your question would be. With all you said I agree with, and just hoped that you might have investigated the Jewish standpoint at all?

[@alangreenspun179]

The only thing you need to investigate is what is inside you. The kingdom of god is within. @@karendunn8055

[@carolwilliams8511]

The smug arrogance of fundamentalist born again Christians was always off-putting to me.

[@allisonpinkall577]

A bird man!!! I always respect a good bird lover

[@timberskid]

I wish there were many more people in the world truly looking for answers for living her

[@timberskid]

Continued... happily here on earth, earnestly looking for truth of reality, not accepting anything on faith but on the complete use of his own mind. It seems clear to me from your journey you love living here on earth by pursuing your own values. I had a different journey but like you I began life in a religious family, although we stopped going to church and my father got sick and began searching for truth in philosophy abandoning his faith altogether. I think I became an atheist although not explicitly at around age 10. I like you, could see too many holes and contradictions in it early on. For example, I could not square the idea that on Fridays we were forbidden to eat meat because it was considered a sin but the next Friday all of a sudden we were permitted to eat meat. I asked who made that decision? It must have been a mortal but on who's authority? I didn't buy the idea that some men could be another man's authority early in life. Then the story of Abraham when God asks him to kill his own son to prove his love for God. To me that was evil.. so credibility was lost in any kind of mysticism, including secular mysticism like is found in the ideas of Marx, Hagel or Kant in my mind. I looked at Humanism but discovered it was a mixture of some religious people and some secular mystics who mostly believed in giving up their minds to altruism and therefore I considered that a betrayal to my own independent pursuit to living a full life as well. Then I discovered Objectivism which I think is the best way for finding a philosophy for living on earth, not based on faith but on non contradictory set of principles by putting the responsibility on the individual to discover reality, using the only tool he has to act and pursue his own values . . his mind.

[@timberskid]

I think because we are born without strong instincts for survival, like birds or lions, etc.. human beings must learn how to not just survive but thrive here on earth and so he needs guidance in how to think clearly to guide his actions, a moral code based on discovering non contradictory facts of reality.

[@timberskid]

I wish all the best in your journey. Best premises.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@timberskid I wish I had more of a critical rational mind as you did as a child. I think some of it had to do with my upbringing... living in total fear of my father and not being encouraged to think or not having my thoughts and feelings valued or validated... being raised and told to shut up and obey. So I just believed without question.... until I got to Bible college and started digging.

[@timberskid]

@@billguthrie2218 😥👍

[@cousinbuzzin9060]

Christianity is so Obsessive Compulsive. I feel so sorry for people so under the thumb of doubt and belief in belief. They hope they are pleasing their God and all the time there is no concrete evidence to what they are agonizing over. They sure do not want to ever be told anything other than they believe. Cognitive Dissonance is terrifying to them.

[@Diesledee]

The radio show in Chicago you are referring to is "Unshackled" by Pacific Garden Mission.

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

I love the title 😂🔥🧡. It’s savage but brutally honest truths. @35:42 - 35:54 & @35:56 - 36:04 this is so sad. This is the part I never understood why many people never questioned that this is cult like behavior. It’s pure cult behavior. You give up your entire goals, dreams, and desires to submit to a book that’s full of nonsense and then the biblical male ‘god’. If don’t make a bit of sense whatsoever at all. I’m going to be honest even though my mother was raised Christian, she did took me and my sibling to a church for no reason in the very early 2000s. However she finally came to realization to not attend something because she never was truly religious, my mother is actually atheist but she don’t want to confirm it at all. I am glad we never went back to church.

[@kaceesnow]

Some people choose to remain blind, I was 20 years old when Realized that Matthew story was man made, we have pastors and scholars who have being 'studying' the bible for 30+ years and still believe Matthew to be inspired

[@billguthrie2218]

Yah. It is mind boggling how deep the brainwashing and religious addiction is in some. How is it not obvious that it's all man made?

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

@@billguthrie2218 it’s because they way they have enforced it as something that is the answer to our humanity. That’s why people believe it. I have a grandfather who’s 80 years old that has been affirming that “The Bible is the book of life”. I’m like dude? Does this book teach us about economics, how to raise children, how to use the bathroom, how to speak, how to cook, how to clean, etc. hell NO! It’s a severe grandiose disease. People run to religion or the Bible all the time when life gets hard for them or they feel alone. I noticed a lot of lost or broken people will run to Christianity even when they don’t even truly convert into that religion.

[@gullettr1]

I wanted to believe but I always felt like I was praying or singing to thin air. I still believe that "doubting Thomas" was not being so unreasonable after all. Jesus said: "blessed are those who have not seen but still believe". I could use that same standard and worship football. I've never seen football be crucified and resurrected either.

[@dakrontu]

Reminds me of ST:TOS episode "For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky". Those who find the truth are a minority. As such, the power of the majority acts against them. The majority are impervious to truth. To them it is unsettling. They want the certainty of delusions. To them, delusions are real, because they don't have the intuition to distinguish them from reality. They don't suffer the dissatisfaction with delusion that is automatically and irrevocably understood by those who have perceived truth. Or their emotions persuade them that, even so, if they believe something enough, and enough of their friends do, then it becomes true.

[@Johnathan1800]

I totally agree they are playing make believe they just don’t want to admit it😂😂😂😂

[@lissavanhouten6628]

You all are describing cognitive dissonance pretty well. No matter how many facts, truth or research you present to someone who believes in a lie, conspiracy theory, or a false belief system, then they'll just double down on that belief. But maybe somewhere it will be stewing around in their brain, consciously or subconsciously, and they'll eventually come to reason, logic and the truth.

[@billguthrie2218]

Yep. It took about 10 years of a growing pile of cog dis to finally collapse on me and break the delusion. Sadly, some people never allow themselves to honestly look at it.

[@Ujasoncook9267]

Finally happened for me. Took a long time. I had the facts (science, archeology, ethic philosophy, etc.), I just chose to hang on because of conditioning and a psychological need. Two years ago I would've merely reasoned Christianity was true using the concepts of narrative theology like Haurwas. Now I feel scared, because there may be nothing (which tbh is probably the primary reason for belief for a lot of people), but I'm hopeful and in wonder about what is around me in reality. But yeah, religion is slowly fading, and that's ok. Humanity can handle it.

[@Ujasoncook9267]

Finally happened for me. Took a long time. I had the facts (science, archeology, ethic philosophy, etc.), I just chose to hang on because of conditioning and a psychological need. Two years ago I would've merely reasoned Christianity was true using the concepts of narrative theology like Haurwas. Now I feel scared, because there may be nothing (which tbh is probably the primary reason for belief for a lot of people), but I'm hopeful and in wonder about what is around me in reality. But yeah, religion is slowly fading, and that's ok. Humanity can handle it.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@Ujasoncook9267 Yah...that fear of nothing..that this is it. Hard one for most people to handle.

[@lissavanhouten6628]

Yes, you still want to hold onto an old belief system because it's comfortable, fear of the unknown, fear of loss of identity and loss of community, and because you've invested a lot of time, passion and energy into it. It takes a lot of time to get over it. I know it's easier said than done, but a person can find and reach out to other communities, discover new purposes/goals for themselves, connect to Nature, still do spiritual practices like yoga, meditation, ceremonies/rituals, journaling, etc, and be in awe of the natural world and the universe.

[@AndreaHausberg-yt5qx]

The title nails it 😅❤

[@midnightcharlieman6669]

Hi Tim. Another very good conversation/podcast. It took me two days to watch this. Very interesting and insightful. As I have stated previously.. I have been through Christian phases and did consider myself Christian some years back.. But it would never last long.. Usually about six months(it obscures reality). The part near the end when you spoke of autonomy.. Yeah.. Never wanted to give that up.. It was conveyed to me through a certain avenue.. I can't remember where. That you have to give yourself up. My sense of self.. Give it up to the lord.. That always bothered me greatly and I would never give that up. I was fiercely resistant to that and wouldn't give in to it. By the way.. That book.. "The road less travelled" I read it in 2011.. Terrific book.. Really helped me.. And afterwards and even during reading it.. I was like.. Oh Man.. I wish I had of come to this earlier.. Years earlier instead of the bible. Because for myself as well.. At one time many years ago I was looking for a self help book for pointers on life and someone said to me.. Ahhhh.. You need to read the New Testament.. And so I did(tried to.. Didn't get through it all.. As I found it difficult/exhausting to read).. Gullibly. I did not find answers from it.. It only made me confused. What the hell is this book going on about. The NT gave me frustration and headaches(though now I enjoy reading it from a secular/historical point of view). Enjoyed this podcast.. Thanks Tim.

[@billguthrie2218]

Yep.. The Road Less Travelled was one early landmark of change for me. Crazy that I just stumbled on it at a Goodwill store in the late 1980s. Another giant baby step out of religious brainwashing for me.

[@midnightcharlieman6669]

@@billguthrie2218 Thanks Bill for acknowledging my post. There is another book I read back in 2011.. About the chakra's.. Great book. Had a look for it earlier yesterday evening but can't find it.. It's around somewhere. You were in pretty deep.. With Christianity that is. I became "born again" in 2004 and I started to be weird mentally.. Like.. I started to judge everything and developed Christian tunnel vision.. Which became unhealthy though I didn't realize it at the time. Oh.. And I'm a Metal head and overnight(actually that happened in 94 as well) decided that I couldn't listen to certain bands anymore because of their lyrics. (I have since listened to those bands again). Then I would slip slowly back to my real self.. I always did that.. Went back to who I was. I would read the New Testament on occasion as a Christian.. But it wasn't very compatible to the sense of spirituality I already had. Bill I'd just like to say that what you said in the podcast was significant and I think it could and will help a lot of people. I'm just starting to learn about the New Testament now over the past 2 years since I departed Christianity.. Podcasts like this help greatly. I read the NT now from a different point of view.. Figuring it out. I've read the book of Galatians twice in the last 2 months or so as well as Romans. I find Paul to be quite annoying and intense.. But am attempting to figure it out and see it for what it is. I find it much better reading the NT as a non Christian now.. It's actually quite interesting(yet still haunted by my Christian past). When reading the gospels it's one contradiction after another. Jesus comes across as a schizophrenic in the book of Luke. Once again.. Podcast like this and others are helping and I got a lot out of your conversation with Tim.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@midnightcharlieman6669 Thank you. Glad it was helpful. Yes, Christianity puts you in a weird tunnel vision / delusion. I encourage you to look into Sam Harris and his podcasts...especially on meditation. He has a meditation app called Waking Up. I've read and explored a lot of spiritual and psychological sources over the years...... Sam's the best. His book Waking Up is well worth reading. Share this podcast with others, too. Thanks for sharing your story. Sharing is helpful for both of us.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@midnightcharlieman6669 I'd also encourage looking into Vipassana meditation. Sam Harris talks about it. I did a 10 day silent meditation retreat two years ago. Meditation and seeing and understanding our own self awareness is the foundation.

[@midnightcharlieman6669]

@@billguthrie2218 Thanks for the suggestion.. Appreciate it. I agree.. Self awareness is the key. But my form of meditation is listening to music.. Albums. Although sometimes it is nice to rest without music. As an extra note.. I've been thinking on this. I wanted to add that in late 2018 after questioning the last threads of Christianity I had lingering on me.. I re-read Barbara Thiering's "Jesus the Man"(I had originally read it in 94). Back to 2018.. And thought yeah that's interesting(I'm not sure how much truth that holds.. But it's interesting) That makes sense. But I wasn't satisfied. Then I watched a main stream documentary about Jesus on youtube(a few of them actually).. But wasn't content or satisfied by them at all. Then I read Reza Aslan.. "Zealot"(watched his video first) Enjoyed it. Then I came across Bart Erhman videos.. Watched a bunch of those. Still curious.. I discovered Robert Eisenman.. And watched a bunch of his talks.. That was very good and eye opening.. Actually I bought his book(second hand).. "James the brother of Jesus" Have not attempted to read it yet as it looks a bit intimidating. Also I discovered Ken Humphreys.. Have watched quite a few of his videos. He is terrific. Just recently finished reading.. "Seeing through Christianity" by Bill Zuersher.. Great read. Am currently reading "Judas of Nazareth" Daniel T Unterbrink.. A tough read as it has a lot of detail. Also.. David Fitzgerald. Not forgetting Aron Ra. Almost forgot to mention back in 2019 I managed to read most of "The War of the Jews" That was a challenge. So yes.. Have been watching videos on youtube and reading about this since late 2018. In between getting on with my other projects. Some days I wake up and think.. Jesus never existed.. Other days I wake up and think.. Maybe there was a guy.. A Zealot(amoungst the many zealots and charlatans).. But he has been distorted and disguised by legend and myth. Thanks again Bill.

[@jeannemalaby2688]

Unshackled was the name of that radio show😱

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Jeanne!

[@billguthrie2218]

Oh, yes. Memories... Ha ha.

[@davidparker7108]

Really good talk . Whats the name of the book?

[@billguthrie2218]

Which book? The Fire That Consumes?

[@davidparker7108]

@@billguthrie2218 the one about hell: What hell really is.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@davidparker7108 The Fire That Consumes. Edward Fudge.

[@WasOne2]

The Pacific Garden Mission, South State Street in Chicago. I preached there several times and lead the singing there too. All when I was xshun.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Ron, if you'd ever care to share your story, please reach out: [e-mail]

[@billguthrie2218]

Oh, yah. Thanks for that. I listened to it often...... 40 years ago. Is it still there? Still doing the radio stories?

[@PearlHandle]

​@@billguthrie2218old post, I know, but I have seen it on TV. I don't know about the stories. We used to listen on the radio a lot when I was young.

[@ariahhumphreys]

Hey I'm from Yakima ❤️👋🏻

[@sia6929]

Tim has the best metaphors

[@deewesthill1213]

I wonder if the old flannel boards are still in use in any Sunday schools? 🤔

[@helencahn7293]

Half of indoctrination involves not teaching kids critical thinking. I am appalled that many of the people who tell their deconstruction stories were never fully educated. I weep because many of these fundamentalists have skills and intelligence that could never be fully realized for the good of society as a whole.

[@billguthrie2218]

Well said.... so much wasted potential and wasted opportunity. I sometimes grieve over what my life could have been.

[@anthiconstantinou1303]

Thanks for sharing your story!!!

[@billguthrie2218]

Thanks for watching. Hope it was helpful.

[@Fourwindsofsuccess]

@@billguthrie2218 it was very helpful. Thank you sir.

[@nuttysquirrel8816]

They spoke to each other normally, but prayed in the King James English. 🤣😂😆

[@billguthrie2218]

I know. Isn't it ridiculous? So silly. It's all a show.

[@mburns3919]

I believe the radio program you were referring to at one point is UNSHACKLED! "a radio drama series produced by Pacific Garden Mission, in Chicago, Illinois." ---en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unshackled! I used to listen to it sometimes too.

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Myron!

[@deewesthill1213]

Even elements of Buddhism, including the nativity, last supper, and death scenes of Buddha, and of the cult of the deified Julius Caesar and the deified emperors, are found in the Christian Scriptures.

[@dakrontu]

At 52 min: Origin of Hell concept in Greek mythology: You can tell Christians that is where Hell comes from, but they won't believe it. They have been taught that the Bible is the inerrant word of their sky-dad.

[@grimlund]

Christians wants hell to be real. Without hell there is no need for either the gospels nor christianity at all. They dont know it them self but Its the fear of hell that makes them doing this crap.

[@stephenmansfield2722]

Bill stated that the Greek does not talk about hell or eternal torment, but I’m thinking of a passage where Jesus talks about someone having been sent to some place of torment and asking God to send one of the prophets to warn his family (God replies along the lines that even if someone comes back from the dead they will not believe). My recollection of this passage does seem to speak of the danger of hell.

[@billguthrie2218]

That was a parable / story used in context to talk about how one should not judge by earthly appearance. It was not teaching what was actually happening in the afterlife. It was probably a common cultural belief adapted from Greek mythology. The Greek words used in the NT do not directly teach eternal torment. Even the passage you mention from Luke does not say the state lasted eternally. And it is contradictory and inconsistent with other places speaking to the topic in the Bible.

[@Theodorus5]

I like this guy Guthrie :)

[@billguthrie2218]

Thank you. I like you for liking me ! Ha ha!

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

Great stuff 👍

[@bobdoyle4077]

Hi this is so interestng.

[@billguthrie2218]

I'm glad you found it interesting. Anything in particular stand out?

[@dakrontu]

At 60 min: The apologists: Well, see it from their perspective. Prime Directive is to believe. They WANT to believe. They will discard anything that gets in the way. By their logic, it must be wrong, however sound it seems. From my own perspective, there is an evil in the world, and its name is APOLOGETICS.

[@tonyedward6909]

I'm obnoxious for jeezus! 😂

[@totonow6955]

I believe in god as a metaphor.

[@rizdekd3912]

There seem to be a subset of people who just can't seem to face the world if there's not a higher power, a creator, a God who sets morals, values, worth and who knows who they are...personally. I have no problem imagining humans are the highest life form either in our part of the galaxy or maybe in the entire universe. To me, that both gives me a sense of value and worth and a sense of responsibility...ie I am special and I can help...both others and perhaps the world a little bit. I can help promote the survival and thriving and well being of other humans and even other life forms. My contribution matters to me and to others I help. And the fact that we evolved...almost miraculously from the self organization of natural materials...to the state of sentience is marvelous. That makes us special...a highly unlikely set of circumstances that may have occurred only once, as I said, in the entire universe. And yes, in several thousands or tens of thousands of years we may no longer exist and the universe may be a lifeless void for trillions or quadrillions of years But so what? We are/were worthwhile while we exist/ed. Others seem to have some sort of existential crisis imagining there isn't a 'higher power' a 'moral law giver' who is some how in charge. They pine over morality being subjective a if a god makes morality somehow not subjective. They worry that humans are worthless if they don't exist eternally and their actions aren't known to or acknowledge/remembered by an eternal powerful god. If there is a god...then really the contribution of humanity..of each individual is meaningless. We can do nothing that is worth anything since a god could do whatever we can do...with a mere thought. Our contribution is as filthy rags. And we are ONLY of value because a god chose...quite arbitrarily that WE are of value as opposed to orangutans, mosquitoes or black holes.

[@jeanmitchell5834]

Great video....if people want to go further...Read two ebooks of Michael Tsarion.....Atlantis alien Visitation and genetic manipulation and also Irish origins of civilisation ......this will clear everything up.......brave people

[@melindad180]

Were the stories you'd listen to as a kid at night, with the organ, called "Unshakeled"?

[@billguthrie2218]

Yep. That was it.

[@melindad180]

I see, now, that someone else pointed it out, too. ☺ I really enjoyed hearing your deconversion testimony. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this! I de-converted after using a lexicon to study the Bible in the Greek and Hebrew and seeing, especially "apostle" Paul, taking things out of context, along with studying the contradictions in his conversion (and much more). Like you said, it takes choosing to learn and being open minded! Critical thinking is my "middle name" too. Thank you so much for pointing out how "changing ones beliefs" regularly, is evidence for continuing to learn. That is so truth. And nothing to be ashamed of! In fact, it's scientific and if science didn't "change their beliefs", just imagine where we'd be now!

[@billguthrie2218]

@@melindad180 Thank you for sharing some of your story and sharing points you found helpful and enjoyable. Your comments are also encouraging to me.... knowing my story and thoughts are helpful and encouraging to others. We're all in this together. Nice to know others have walked and are walking down the same path.

[@RobertWGreaves]

I am no church goer but I am most certain church attendance is far more complex.

[@DoctaOsiris]

Idk, maybe for some people but on the odd occasion I've gone to a church with some people I know and mainly just for the contact with other people and at least 75% of the others were there for the same reason, it is likely more complex but only for the minority of people, but that's just my opinion 🙃

[@billguthrie2218]

Sure it's a little more complex, but that is the core of what is going on.

[@DoctaOsiris]

First! 🙃

[@elizabethbucalo5315]

Alter calls are just for show because people are pressured into go up. And it’s for show

[@jjs2082]

Bill, slaying the fidels. We were discussing free will.

[@billguthrie2218]

Death by 1,000 cuts. Deconversion is against ones will.

[@Sir20hz]

Church bishs know ... They know

[@davida.taylor8444]

Did you end the relationship with the girl you mentioned bc she wasn't KJ only?

[@HarmonicAtheist]

No, but she did.

[@davida.taylor8444]

Dang, that's rough.

[@shaunigothictv1003]

Everyone watch @52 minutes they start talking about hell. Professor Bart Erhman already destroyed the Christian idea of hell in his brilliant lectures on the origins of the New Testament. Professor Bart Erhman proved that the Christian idea of Hell came from the New Testament writers mixing a hybrid of Zoro Astrian & Greek ideas with their heavily modified version of Judaism.

[@billguthrie2218]

Yep. As I stated, I saw this when I was studying in 1987, 1988. And Edward Fudges book The Fire That Consumes was published in 1986 or so. There is also a film about Fudges life and struggle against those who resisted his debunking of the Hell idea.

[@billguthrie2218]

Ehrman is a bit late to the game. SDA and JW have already debunked it over a century ago, it is just that noone listens to them. Ehrman has a platform now. There is a 2 volume set of SDA books called The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers that also debunks it. I'm betting Ehrman may have footnotes to these books in his if his research was thorough.

[@billguthrie2218]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWeZeYNjaK2ClaM

[@shaunigothictv1003]

@@billguthrie2218 Agreed Bill. Thanks for appearing on Tims show my friend. Your brilliant interview has really helped me in my own personal journey, and i appreciate your honesty and commitment to tell us viewers the truth about what really happened. May the creator (whoever it is) bless you Bill.

[@deant3980]

Hermetic principles and Hindu beliefs merged.