Has All Chat gone TOO far? ESL Birmingham - Not For Broadcast Ep. 5

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[@Jupex]

If this is the norm, all chat shittalk every tournament, it's gonna get old and lose that spice behind it.

[@kokoukaga9902]

all chat only good if there's a stake or context behind it. if it's trashtalk for the sake of "content" then it loses most of the substance. even "genuine" shittalk like ATF gets boring after a few matches.

[@justsomeguywithoutamustang6436]

Also, only cool for LAN tournaments, imagine doing this with online events, it just ends up as meaningless dribble ( if you'd ask me ) You can build up the hype that leads to it but I think it ought to stay in pubs rather than online tourneys, could be wrong though.

[@aokuang2958]

hard disagree. people love when pros all chat. it’s hype. especially on LAN

[@babyhands9287]

I like clever or well timed in-game voice lines, sprays, emotes etc. banter is fun but Dota has such good in-game bm material

[@JeremyBell]

My only problem is when Quinn trash talks then casters and admin ignore it and give him a pass as the Dota 2 goldenboy. If Betboom or Falcon do 1 little thing on the edge, then it's a moral outrage! Dota 2 is a little too clicky right now. There's an "in crowd" and "out crowd". Just be morally consistent in your positions and criticism.

[@JonBozz6]

It felt like Torontotokyo meant "I can trashtalk to your face too instead of behind the screen with everyone muted," but the nuance was lost. Good content as always. Thank you, Cap and Lex Luthor.

[@maxogge]

I got that impression aswell. "dont hide behind the computer screen" and "dont hide behind a muted chat" kinda thing.

[@petespeedsxp4967]

I totally agree with Cap. I would rexpect the allchatting more, if Falcons would also do it while losing. OG/Falcons game 2 was the perfect example where even ceb pointed it out in all chat "why so silent" or something like this.

[@j-mc2144]

THANK YOU FOR THE NEWBIE BROADCAST! :)

[@CapCasts]

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING :)

[@andreymuravyev7624]

Shout out for the return of the newbie stream! You guys are doing great job👊

[@XuEdward]

I don’t mind trash talking if your opponent are into trash talking as well. But some teams aren’t like that, they just want to play the game or at most use the chat wheel a bit. I remember XG being very passive. But Falcons kept picking on XM last tournament. Then they trash talked back and actually won the tournament. Felt good.

[@mattlars89]

8:00 something I miss SVG, is when teams used to have their own secret metas. More dynamic drafts and Gameplay. Stuff that made Puppey the captain he once was. Now it´s just a macro meta game. My best example to give is Na´vi vs Tongfu with Chen Pudge combo. Those Dendi pudge fountain hooks where so crazy that Loda made complaints. That was exhilarating to watch. Ti 3

[@nuketurnal2]

luka once said, "everybody acts tough when they're up"

[@PlanctonVideos]

Love the little memes to illustrate the conversation!

[@GABENSLAW]

Cap (and Avery!) the content you have been putting out lately has been top tier bro. I listened to your first podcast and couldn’t get into it even though I really wanted to. This content has me craving more. Well done sir and bravo.

[@ziggybender9125]

They should add an item that in some way temporarily removes strength, the 3 strength core lineups get way too strong in in late game to the point the carries need like 5 seconds to take them down.

[@Leo-rf5bn]

Thank you , Captain America and Lex Luthor for this amazing vid.

[@CapCasts]

Ty citizen

[@rasmuslundsteen7546]

Enjoying the ‘Not for Broadcast’ format, keep it up!

[@mendax2014]

Yay I was waiting for this podcast :) love the memes! Also, counterpoint - Ceb's two blackholes in the game 2 vs I forget who were game winning.

[@scarlz8719]

I think the vibe of the all chat matters. Falcons vs OG all chat was spicy but in good faith, which made it very entertaining. BetBoom are a frostier team, however, particularly TorontoTokyo, and the all chat there felt bad-tempered.

[@Sylian-]

honestly I think what could easily help the state of the game would be to buff splitplushing/ratting to become a better viable option vs a team slowing it down trying to play safe while you struggle winning a teamfight I really believe they overnerfed it, yes it used to be a problem but how weak it is an option these days really results in a more stale game as ideally these options and playstyles should keep each other in check.

[@mykullbubbles]

means you support Tinker's reawakening?

[@tradenchill9123]

Agree, nearly all games on Archon now go 50-60 mins and favor the defender / HG campers with scalable heroes.

[@Arjun-2306anna]

I love avery being sarcastically toxic .. and captain america's reaction to it :))

[@Zarzar22]

Yesss my favorite Dota pod! Right in time to lull me to sleep and then get me through my morning commute tomorrow. Thanks fellas ❤

[@theobarr9218]

The IG vs XG series was the epitomy of what is wrong with this patch. One team playing fast paced, exciting dota for 20 minutes only to have to slow down to a crawl for highground and 5th rosh to end the game.

[@Cecekcz]

All chatting is fun to see in pro games but not when it’s punching down. When you’re 2-0 up in a bo5 and you’re all chatting at the enemy in game 3 you’re also winning that’s just super lame imo

[@BigLuckBrian]

Maybe not just straight flame and beef, but I'd just like to see some "xD's" during funny moments or just simple acknowledgment of just how stupid this game can be sometimes in pro all chat

[@lucassypinoli2579]

What Avery said about the state of the game - being a viewer it's not fun to watch because it's over, and over in a slow drawn out way vs being a player in the game believing you can win it - totally bang on. Chefs kiss.

[@lucassypinoli2579]

Also thanks for doing the newcomer stream, I think that's really important to have in the scene.

[@Zissycat21]

In my opinion trash talking is always going too far. Respecting your opponent and being kind is something being taught to children and these are grown-ups. This is not behaviour i want to see in a pro scene

[@pigeostar133]

in old times the bad manners and shittalk were funny because they were friendly, and wasnt spammed every game and rarely aggressive like now, this butterfly effect started with OG doing funny and kind of friendly bad manners, but every single game. Into ATF debut being hyped up everytime he did something, and after that every team tried to emulate it, casters and fans hyping it more and more and we ended up here, where every game pros almost act like it's some random toxic pub, making games not even "professional" anymore but it's everyone's fault, to save this situation before it gets even worse they probably should penalize those who get too agressive and/or spam too much BM and trashtalk is fun when it's done to have fun...

[@arinbjornhelgason4150]

Love this podcast, shortens the workday every time a new one drops

[@naz-ghul6327]

@Cap I'm sorry but the problem described at begening is smth in dota for realy long, and its the consequence of last few years of addings counters to all stuff. If you remember dota like 4-5 year ago, there were a lot of uncounterable stuff (alche timing, some late game heros w/o counter heros etc etc etc...). Over the years, we (as a comunity) came to a conclusion that this is boring - we dont wanna know we lose at 30 mins to 6sloted alch hiting buildings and having more regen then we have dps. So the game added more items/talents to counter stuff. Nowdays, all strats can be countered basicaly. And if you see two drafts, you cant say with one will have advantige in the late game or so, gold and momentum can fix nearly all problems. And this generates the same patern as before. If your drafts was like "this team have huge timing min 20, the other one have timing min 35 and then the 1st way have way beter late game" you will never end up in this repeatable state.

[@rennoujip3073]

Thanks for the newbie stream you two. I actually learned a few things that felt obvious to a lot of other players. Re: Current Patch - Feels good to play feels bad to watch is pretty much it.

[@karmakaz1]

Cap is the goat content creator for all dota addicts like myself

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

The winner of the tournament seems to have been decided in the Falcons vs Liquid game. Side note, I'm not sure I've ever seen Sand King picked, although I'm relatively new to Dota2.

[@SaltyLordX]

This all chat nonsense has gone too far. It needs to be dialed down before it turns into some major drama.

[@pugb2657]

That early conversation about power creep reminded me, when I started playing Dota, I was one of those players that wanted to play Earthshaker or Warlock every game for the chance that my spells and ult would instantly kill 4 heroes in my low mmr pubs. Once you got a taste for it, you were ruined for any other heroes for a bit

[@leo6d985]

The issue is the difficulty of getting to high ground. Is too hard, teams are too careful and do up to 3-4 Roshans in order to win. This make the games overly long and repetitive.

[@Thomas-bq4ed]

I can’t tell you how many games I’ve won/lost because of the amount of advantage you need to go high ground, and the fact it needs to be a 5 man commitment. Yesterday was just like 3 games of pure frustration as we throw away a huge advantage buying terrible items and losing going highground as 4. It’s really a mess.

[@baschelor]

I think with that enigma thing, the map is so large now - the spacing of players can be easily made, and with items like Aether Lens, you dont need to be close to cast spells anymore

[@fiendishshape]

The good all chat moments have been because people are feeling it in the moment. TorontoTokyo vs OG, XG vs Falcons, Emo vs EG at Singapore ESL One finals are good examples. Skiter is corny.

[@Ohanrahan]

So in my 3K games it goes either way (and both are boring) 1. Team gets advantage and does exactly what was said here - get more and more advantage, get torm, get aegis, push racks go back and win slowly. 2. Team gets advantage but Pos1/2/3 dives fountain and gets entire team killed so it adds another 30+ min to the game which is even more boring. For the defending team that can only def hg its boring, for the team pushing its also boring cause its not contested anymore, you can run through their entire jungle without every having to fight over it. Its boring. Unfortunately i have no fix for it either but i do think current patch is kinda boring.

[@hansdampf3600]

Nice podcast! I'd appreciate timestamps in the player maybe to divide the episode into chapters.

[@Szajtek]

Thanks for all the content Cap!

[@lovrostankov7101]

adding a item that disables ward effect for a couple of sec could be amazing

[@kvk1]

Love these podcasts, thanks both.

[@SacrosanctMD]

All chat and TT loses its spice when EVERY effing game there is someone so noisy talking crap. Just imagine a basketball game when one side or both sides talk crap every single possession. I agree with SVG, the Emo question mark is peak all chat because its so perfect in timing and the most feeling portrayed with the less possible typed letters.

[@tkman5000]

Shit talking creates storylines which makes it more engaging to watch

[@Seeker265729]

Isnt a function of the big team fights spells a result of the stun changes to a degree as well? I also think why games are more fun to play is that people dont have the discipline and patience in pubs to perfect the stalemate ideal plays so mistakes are made more with skirmishing and individual outplays.

[@Seeker265729]

I honestly think the all chats should be disabled other than responses to admin or the ending gg. Voicelines, tipping, high fives, and all the in game rhings people use for trash talk is more than enough.

[@chow173]

can you put this on Spotify? i wanna listen to this while going to work, please

[@CapCasts]

Unfortunately due to some plans coming up, we won't be going to spotify. If those plans change though, we will add it

[@chow173]

@@CapCasts hopefully it got allowed.. thanks captain

[@rohantewari2367]

I'd say trash talk seems fascinating now as it's not the norm... If it becomes a common thing, people will lose interest For the team fight, I think pros are too vary about positioning, and knowing how a certain playstyle could be executed. I would wish dota to transform in such a way, that different teams should prefer different play styles, that would be so interesting. Maybe like alliance in TI3 Or carry io in TI9

[@lakshmanshiva1686]

100% with Avery on this!

[@mikea5817]

Personally, I thought it felt like they had thoroughly beaten their opponent and kept kicking them while they were down. It was made worse when TorontoTokyo responded and the back and forth didn't seem like just ribbing anymore. I don't think there needs to be regulations, but that definitely stopped being funny and felt more like an annoying pub

[@mdnuhalmunawar1592]

The all chatting of ceb made OG vs Falcons the most fun series of the tournament for me.

[@PriscillAAH_]

holy they cooked this ep

[@danfreeboard883]

you are basically advocating for having a spell dmg stat like league of legends

[@joebearslim]

I think the issue is that these new teams are so uninteresting that this is all they can do for attention. I watched the whole tournament but the finals. For two years, I was forced to watch Bb, Liquid, Gaimin play in every top 3. It's super fucking boring. And now we get Falcons, who play almost identical to Tundra of old -also one of the most boring teams to watch in modern Dota history.

[@kelly747k]

Cap & SVG: Curious question... do spells morph by the number of creeps or players caught up? I vaguely remember a match where warlock cast the spell and Sumail came in with Mirana multiple target and did a ton of damage... Would you feel more interested if spell damage or area damage was affected by the number of enemies/creeps/even friends in the attack? Don't know how it'd work, but you'd see more explosive things happen if say two high health + 1 glass cannon were caught by such a modified attack.

[@CapCasts]

As in all AOE spells scale for each hero it hits? Sounds interesting

[@zp5vb7]

100% agree with svg if you overdo something it loses all of its value, i wish teams had a cap (hehe) on all chat messages like you do on tips so you cant just write essays and would have to come up with actual good 1 liners

[@solidpython4964]

Honestly the all chat is just boring now, as SVG said, it’s overdone. Rarity and particularity make that kind of talk fun, not when it’s forced every game.

[@bass5445]

Personally found some of the all chat really cringe, would prefer if it didn't continue

[@giorgitsereteli2809]

I think Torontos EZ game mid fight versus back2back ti winner OG is the best all chat ever.

[@mynameisUhrl]

I don't read torontotokyo's comment like that, like "punch you in your face". I read it like "I'll do it in your face", implying he's gonna stand there and bkb tp in front of them as a cocky maneuver where they can't do anything, right under their noses.

[@arditlika9388]

Besides the fact all chat is getting boring real fast, there is no creativity and it feels genuinely mean. Tips can be funny, voicelines can be funny, sprays. Even the mantle drop was funny and creative.

[@MordecaiandMonroe]

Maybe with how many items increase magic resist they should reduce base from 25% to 5% 10% or 0% and if you wanna tank magic you gotta build it

[@chazstahs]

Considering how long this patch has been stuck, the gameplay has been quite entertaining. Not really fair to compare it to the top choice patches, because there are some incredibly boring patches that even ti was played on.

[@kerensky3677]

im just 10 minutes into the video and I already feel like the solution to the problamem is go back to HON and see why HON works... LIMIT buybacks to 2 only. Then you won't have prolonged stale games anymore.

[@michaelkingsman947]

I always liked you cap, one thing i don't understand is why you always talk formally. its like you are always in character or sth, never revealing your trueself.

[@CapCasts]

Not sure what you mean tbh

[@michaelkingsman947]

@@CapCasts you are always very polite and speak like how counselors in school would speak. I'm assuming it's part of being caster and having eyes on you all the time. opposite is Sunsfan, even tho respectful but not too polite and formal. you would never say "shut the fuck up" to SVG during a cast but sunsfan probably would say that to synderen, not that it's a bad thing i like him too.

[@9ambler99]

Yea all chat has gotten too cringe. It used to be rare, but now it's like a pub. Someone has to weigh in and tell them to keep it civil.

[@TheKenpachi-99]

Do you post these eps anywhere in spotify?

[@dacloud558]

Will this be available on Spotify?

[@CapCasts]

Due to some potential plans for the future, this will not be on Spotify. If our plans change, we will make it a podcast

[@joeyhills212]

Theres too many tower reinforcements. Drags the game out much long because you cant capitalize on objectives after winning fights

[@GarrettJamie1820]

BEEN WAITING FOR THSI ONE

[@brainfeeder6]

I think it has to do with the skill cap, all these teams and players have gotten so good, it makes watching the games kinda boring.

[@MrTheSmoon]

I think the way to make the game more exciting is to nerf high ground and defensive items.

[@bingshavebeenchilled]

Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that the Dota feels kinda inevitable and boring to watch in general at the moment, a team will have won by 20 minutes, but they need to farm and take a couple of Roshans first dragging the game out for another 30 to be able to win. I am really hoping a patch sorts this out. That being said, Beermingham was still the most entertaining Dota event I've watched for years, absolutely loved the trash talk and while Torontotokyo was clearly very mad, I saw his face comment more of a language barrier thing and he was talking about being able to trash talk to people's faces, I just hope all people involved at the end of the day don't take it too seriously. Good point about overdoing it though, it's a bit disrespectful when you drop an XD or ))) after every kill when up 30k gold and up 2-0 in a grand final, I kinda really don't like marline for that reason, ATF and Ceb are way better at it

[@matunga1309]

Some trashtalkings is fine; idm smileys or question marks but it's inappropriate when you name-call (calling opponents clowns comes to mind) and cowardly/a bit pathetic when you only do it when up. You should celebrate your victories not mock your opponent's losses

[@breikio]

First BetBoom cheats in the OG series (using printed information DURING the game, not draft, the actual game) and then TEQUILATOKYO threatens other players with violence. Surprised there was no punishments at all for BetBoom this tournament.

[@hansdampf3600]

TT didnt threaten violence, bro. He was refering to Falcons being tough via chat, but not being so face to face. Thats what he meant when he said "i can do it to your face too": He can talk trash to them to their face, not just online. He obviously didnt mean he'd hit someone in the face, lol. Come on.

[@breikio]

@@hansdampf3600 Sure, he also didnt mean it in the second time when he asked for Ammars room number and threatened to go fight them?

[@xaviersgiantego1453]

Will there be an All Chat episode between now and PGL? ❤

[@CapCasts]

Yes!

[@pandaofsam]

I thought we should return the rs to the mid of the map, now I feel the rs fight doesn't intense like before

[@hsh012]

I dont mind them it makes more satisfying when they lose 😅

[@dill14491]

Is this tank patch over yet?

[@oppressive_hat]

Nice! 👍

[@SpeedWeed97]

cap i really love the content but if possible try to put footage of what u guys are talking about cuz u talk about idk tundra and its bb vs falcons in the backgrounds, personally it really distracts me, again love the content just giving feedback

[@MrMooPoV]

Did team liquid started new "curse" ? Whoever eliminates TL win whole event? 😁

[@ErkaaJ]

I hate the argument that "it is entertainment", as if the audience wants an act. If the all-chat is genuine (e.g. ATF), then it is spicy and possibly entertaining, but if it is forced (e.g. Skiter) then it is unbearably cringe. I had to turn off the final day of Birmingham because of the cringe that would ensue.

[@beneaththeveil]

Out of interest: why do you believe that Skiter is forced to engage in it? If you watch the podcast Skiter did with Cap, Quinn and Insania (on this very channel): Skiter says himself he was interested in all chatting like he is now back when he was in Tundra, but the ethos of the team at the time (headed by 33 and Aui) weren't interested in it so he assimilated to the way they wanted to conduct themselves in order to be a cohesive unit with the rest of his team. Now that he's in a team with characters like Malrine and ATF who are interested in doing it, he feels more comfortable engaging with it and has also been responsible for reigning in ATF and Malrine when they stepped beyond sportsmanlike taunting and stepped into outright disrespect. You need only look at Cr1t as an example of someone who isn't interested in it so doesn't engage. Noone is forced into anything.

[@ErkaaJ]

@@beneaththeveil When I say forced I don't mean under compulsion, I mean that it sounds contrived. Skiter also said that it is purely for entertainment on that episode, but by that token it would also be entertaining if ATF started yodeling. It is just out of place.

[@beneaththeveil]

@@ErkaaJ I can see where you're coming from, that's a fair point of view to hold

[@MogulKhan-pf9tl]

You can always mute

[@dawnglianapachuau6433]

the chatwheel makes it entertaining.... didnt the host made a player from each teams trash talk befre the game. Why make a big deal out it!! ,its part of the entertainment.

[@josecamilojimenez2784]

just a small comment, is not like the games in the tournament where stale, the issue is that the pro scene has peaked, there's nothing new, nothing more or less, pro teams got the formula and is not because of the patch, is just because the game has been basically the same for 11 years and basically the 3 stages of a game (early, mid, late) are already been "decoded"

[@maxogge]

I think svg is way off when he is talking about the big teamfight spells. They have always been reliant on the follow up. That they dont win the fight by themself is part of the balance. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j2e6ZGpsrLKjms0 Even back then when heros were poor as fuck those spells needed follow up. Its the dota way. You either get a clean jump with the right follow up damage and things die in mere seconds or the enemies get to react with meka, stick, forcestaff, running away etc and a kill goes from taking 2s to taking 20s.

[@karmakaz1]

Gm 2 of the finals was an epic... i dont fully agree the games this patch are boring

[@roddyrodrigo420]

make tide and sk stuns non-status resistable?

[@96Tapatio96]

Forced trash talk will kill the vibes. But genuine shit talk/rivalry really raised the stakes of these games

[@emils2933]

Remove buybacks. Fixed.

[@zipel]

No, only TT taking it far

[@naprimjer6593]

The fuck you mean lol? Falcons toxic af

[@monkeygay-l7w]

Frankly, the first part is kinda a bad take. Is it important that the game is fun to watch? Yes. But not at the cost of the playability. There is not a single thing wrong with the inevitability of the game result if a team does not do anything about it or played poorly before that point. If a team played better in the early game and got a 5k networth lead by 15 mins, and eventually wins at the 30 minutes mark by playing solid Dota like shoving lanes, taking rosh and sieging high ground, then the game was won in the first 15 mins. And that is fine. It does not have to be flashy. If the enemy team has a power spike despite the networth deficit but still lost, then that is their fault (gameplay or draftwise) for not utilizing it well enough or for letting the game get to a point where they cannot turn it around with the power spike. A team’s winning chances/lead (networth or map control or draftwise or otherwise) should not be squandered for the sake of viewership. If you want comebacks, there’s always the rubberband patch. One death and it’s even again, so just pick Spectre and save for buyback. I’m not gonna defend LGD because I do think they made some major mistakes in TI8, but I imagine it was dumb for LGD to lose some of those games to OG despite crushing them so hard in early and mid game. They lost one teamfight and the game is even again (actually behind lol). Same goes for EG vs OG when EG was miles ahead, and Spec just wins because of one rosh fight. Great viewership and storyline, but absolutely illogical gamewise.

[@thehumus8688]

Brits has lively football culture, which kinda infamous for rowdy crowd. so, it lively crowd for sure The Dota final game played is lame though unlike Epic League, with XG comeback against Falcon Goliath. the Brimingham end with BetBoom whimper XG vs IG 1st gameis not the finese match, but its has TI-all or Nothing feel to them, which make it exciting as crowdpleaser. the Final deciding match was opposite of that with BB deflated like Flat Tire, and end with Toronto raging - which turn it into my typical Pub game lol also, Heroes becoming to tanky. CMIW but....... Overwatch Pro Scene become boring and Died soon after when Tank Meta dominates and Blizzard not fix it Tank Meta is boring to watch, and Doto is in that path. prob since Tundra win Ti

[@exort7010]

Absolutely agree, a lot of agi hc become completely unplayable in Dota pro scene. Can't deal enough damage and die too quickly

[@tripninick8597]

Maybe this will be a good idea (or not). When a team kills Roshan, one random hero from that team gets stoned for 10 seconds. That way roshan fights will be more dynamic. IDK. Valve just need to do something more for Roshan and the neutral creeps I think. Especially the ones that you can pull.

[@PokeToki]

Taunts and spray spam annoy me as a viewer

[@ConstantinFlueratoru]

That s why i jump in ur twitch as soon as u go live, guys. Finally, someone that s not like: "what are u talking about? this is the most balanced patch we've ever had". Patch is absolutely garbage, the most boring dota has ever been in my opinion.The fact that they gave us crownfall without even a minor gameplay update patch makes just sucks. I still hope Valve comes to their senses and ship some gameplay update soon or idk. ppl will get tired of turbo queuing for the cavern crawl, and then what?

[@mitchellshetenhelm2800]

First!

[@stefanpfeifhofer3249]

this was the worst ESL Event for a very long time - i don't know whats behind the scenes but there went so many small things wrong .... for example: i thought E-Sport is not in a realationship with alcohol ... so why are the cameras (the director) supporting pouring beer for entertainment?! The ingame Cameras where off (like in the PGL-Days) ... so many things that could have done better - i would love to get a chance to do it better because it's easy

[@hellnickyable]

have you not seen previous esl birmingham?

[@stefanpfeifhofer3249]

​@@hellnickyable i have ... different year/different aera, right?

[@arditlika9388]

Lol getting mad about beer sponsorships when shady gambling and crypto has devoured the esports sponsorship for years now.

[@pa1nted]

more allchat please. these aren't as interesting or entertaining as listen to Quinn and insania

[@CapCasts]

1) Plenty of other people are enjoying them, so next time just keep your opinion to yourself 2) It is possible for me to record both series without one affecting the timing or quantity of the other 3)

[@S0da0DA]

Great video as always, Cap and SVG

[@JokerVidsSG]

Remember the days when a well-timed "?" was all that was needed to be spicy? Now these prepubescent brats type mini essays every game