Hasselblad XCD Lens Guide

[@sparkliteto]

I never comment on KZbin videos but I think you’ve done Hasselblad an incredible service here. Honestly, this videos is no doubt selling cameras and lenses for them. They should make you a brand ambassador just for this incredible video - a one of a kind on KZbin and the only truly useful lens guide for the system I’ve been able to find. Extremely well done. Most importantly, excellent photography. Your urban decay work is an inspiration and I hope you return to producing some videos on MF / ‘bald gear.

[@thomasat3822]

+1

[@Behind_the_Lens_Photo]

Def. agree this video is probably one of the best I have seen for hasselblad very well done Andrew Great work

[@mikegarcia8079]

Even though this video is 19 months old, it is a timeless review packed with great info. Belated thanks!

[@Will_i_art]

You have no idea how helpful this review was, so greatful, thank you!

[@perraultstudios7010]

Andrew, great reviews and I totally agree with your assessments. I currently own the 45p, zoom, 80mm & 135 + extender. Surprisingly to me I use the 45p the most...it's SO small and compact and a dream to use I just leave it attached to my X1D sling it over my shoulder and take it EVERYwhere. I hardly even notice I have it on...and can just sling it around when something captures my eyes. I never thought I'd be SO happy with it. Anyway, keep up the good work and look forward to more of your content. Cheers, Wes

[@JohnKrill]

I watch all your videos even though I already have the camera I want, an X-Pro 2, I already have the lenses I want, 16mm f2.8, 23mm f2.0, 27mm f2.8, and a 50mm f2.0. So why do I watch all these reviews? Entertainment. Keep up the good work and I will continue watching.

[@danielscheerer3032]

I know this is an old video now, but it is STILL the best Hassy video out there - thanks SO much for doing it. I owned the 907x for a while and LOVED it, but due to a couple of weaknesses, traded it for a GFX 50SII. Big mistake. All cameras have weaknesses, but while the Fuji is a wonderful workhorse, it is also so heavy, particularly carrying it with multiple lenses, not to mention it's lack of inspiration,so I just stopped enjoying and using it. I'm now going BACK to the 907x and have to wade through the (expensive!) lens options, so this video is helping me figure out my path through. At this stage, I wonder if they have any plans to add to the collection. Only time will tell - thanks for your contributions here!

[@baharam98]

Hands down, this is the most useful XCD Lens Guide in the world. THANK YOU.

[@nunosantos8784]

The colours are just amazing... and your photos are wonderful.

[@WS-bk7uu]

Love your recent photos Andrew! I could also spend hours listening to your reviews, even though I have no intention of buying a Hasselblad!

[@RandyPollock]

I can't think of one photographer that I follow that shoots Hasselblad, but congratulations on finishing a project that maybe a few will find helpful with their future purchases.

[@nadijaweeraratne7687]

Finally, a clear concise description & explanation. Thank you very much. Appreciate it very much. I wish you the very best in your future endeavors!

[@HenryAni]

I love watching reviews of all the fine things I can not afford.

[@JohnKrill]

I do have a question: Who makes the lenses?

[@HenryAni]

@@JohnKrill DJI in china.

[@toe247]

@@HenryAni No, they are all made in Japan. The company is owned by DJI. Two different things.

[@ako9212]

You might be surprised. The og X1d can be had for a bargain, and the 45 p regularly sells for less than 900 used. I saw a brand new one for 700 today.

[@rodriguezahr]

This is like winning a lottery tickets for those like me who are thinking to switch to Hasselblad. This review is all one need to step into medium format world and it might be an encouraging one to do so too for those who are still hesitant. Thanks for putting all the time and effort making it.

[@GuamPhotography]

One of the first things that I did when I purchased an X1D system is change the aperture in the menu settings to 'Full' instead of 'Normal', so when I shoot wide open the 'bokeh balls' are round and not hexagonal shaped, did some tests, and its still very sharp at the 'Full' setting.

[@HitAndMissLab]

This video is so useful its beyond explanation. Manufacturers should really have insight to give all the lenses to one reputable KZbinr to examine them like Andrew Goodcamera did. Information like this, particularly about the sharpness, removes so much uncertainty when one is making very expensive decisions.

[@henrymaddocks984]

Lots of great shots. I like the desert panoramas, but the tractor shot @17:18 and the rural shot @ 9:54 are amazing.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks Henry!

[@henrymaddocks984]

@@AndrewGoodCamera I would buy a print of that photo at 9:54

[@Pk_1743]

Great effort man. No one had ever posted such a brief explanation 👍👍. Keep doing great 👏👏

[@Robert-ko6wr]

Nicely done! Comprehensive, well balanced and unbiased. You don’t find that very often. Thank you. Helped tremendously.

[@john_murch]

I have several friends that shoot with the X1D professionally, so I've had my opportunities to have a play. I know what you mean about the ergonomics and the form factor/design, it's exceptional Also, I agree with you on the colours straight out of the camera. Those who know, know. As far as the comprehensive lens reviews, this was a really great way to compare the full line-up. Thanks for all your effort Andrew and also, great shots!

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks John!

[@patrikfager7796]

Superb content, even in 2023! Thanks!

[@preeteshpatel3962]

Great review. I agree the 80mm 1.9 is up there with the 75 noctilux or even better. The way it captures, the insane diffuse bokeh, and the color rendering it delivers with the 907x is amazing. I have many m, sl, and x series lenses, and honestly this is my fav of them all.

[@bobsykes]

Really interesting! I love the “rural decay” photographs that you made! I, too, chose the 45/f4 P and the 80/f1.9 due to the shocking contrast and micro contrast both provide, the 80mm “look”, and I’m considering the 30/f3.5. I think it’s amusing that you ended up with the same preferences. Thank you.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Cool validation! Thanks for watching

[@KenHutchins]

Hasselblad had a lens webinar Spring of 2020. One of the designers of the 30mm was the featured on the video (available on KZbin). It is one of their better lenses.

[@bobsykes]

@@KenHutchins Thank you.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

@@walkingmeditation61 If you're not needing the lower f-stop, yeah I don't think you'll notice enough difference to warrant the larger expense.

[@ignaciocruzatcorrea3595]

Amazing episode. Finally someone made a small review of each Hasselblad X lens. Thank you so much. Great job!!!

[@michelvanryswyk8560]

Andrew, Incredible video presentation on the Hasselblad lenses, just what I need as I’m switching from Nikon to Hasselblad! I watched every minute and was impressed with your review, thank you! Greetings from 🇨🇦,eH!

[@gameshoes]

I have the 45p and the 90mm as they were the two most affordable (and sensible pair) out of the bunch. I’ve been enjoying them. However, I feel like the 45p hunts like crazy, even for the slightest adjustments. The 90mm autofocus is way more confident. When I do get perfect focus though, muah, chef’s kiss. I am eyeing that 135mm + teleconverter as well. As for those who are discussing the price... it ain’t cheap but it’s not unaffordable. I’m just a sales associate in a big box retailer (pay was recently upped to $15/hr); I have a mortgage; I don’t have a partner to help me financially. And I bought the X1D II with the two lenses. Just plan out your finances. You’ll be surprised at how much you can afford when you do some good planning. For those saying that the system isn’t “worth it” are just envious.

[@havocproltd]

I really appreciate your comment. I have a pair of D850's and a boatload of Nikon glass and yet, I just pulled the trigger on a X1D ii with a 45p. I CAN afford this stuff and it's STILL ridiculous! I'm not really a "pro" but I do cash a check for some photo work once in a while. I got tired of being envious. But rentals are cheap so that's MY plan for deciding on more lenses. Of course, if that adapter for Nikon lenses ever becomes available again and it works.....

[@groovejunky2549]

Great photos, Andrew! Thank you for the in depth comparison and overview of this system. It was certainly something that was missing before you took it on.

[@adreus4759]

Its amazing to see how natural and 3 dimensional the Pictures out of the Hasselblad look. Thats a look you can not replicate with a smaller sensor...

[@carlosgastelum8251]

I'm glad you did this... xcd lenses are expensive and I have been going in circles thinking between 65, 80, 90, 120 or 135 since I can only justify one.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Would love to hear what you decide.

[@carlosgastelum8251]

@@AndrewGoodCamera My heart is with the 80mm but my wallet is thinking more the 65mm or 90mm

[@veronicafemina1742]

@@carlosgastelum8251 I will go for the 120 (maybe 80mm).

[@carlosgastelum8251]

@@veronicafemina1742 as much as I like both the 80 and 120 I am waiting to try the 90mm first. Mainly for size/weight since I'll be using it with my 907x and I feel the other ones make the combination too front heavy. Also the lower weight will help with hiking/biking and overall traveling; my only concern is indoor low light situations... that's the one thing that keeps me coming back to the 80mm

[@anthonyrock5039]

@@carlosgastelum8251 Did you pick up the 90 ? I am trying to decide at the moment between the 90 and the new 90v 2,5 or the 55 (face in palm). I picked up the 45p as in my old system I have the GF45 but my second lens is a GF110 f2 and the closest match would be a cross between the 90 f3,5 and the 80 1.9

[@maxdmachy]

Not to forget - great effective and comprehensive run through a big topic. Particularly love the panoramic samples, again!

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Many thanks!

[@jialiangxu5363]

Love this X-lens guide tour video, very helpful to me a brand new Hasselblad X2D fan. Great thanks

[@JamesBellLandscapePhotography]

Very comprehensive as usual for your channel. Well done on putting this together.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Hey James! Thanks!

[@madrobotgames2677]

I enjoy your no-nonsense videos, Andrew. Thanks for your work.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Glad you like them!

[@Honkus]

A wonderful in depth review of each lens (better even the second time ;) ). I dream of medium format some day...some day. Your picture project we have gotten hints and peeks of looks just amazing!

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks Michael!

[@christoombes7875]

Once again top marks for such a comprehensive review which I’m sure anyone looking to buy into the system will find invaluable. For me I just really enjoyed the photographic journey, stunning photos of such a beautiful area. Thanks for sharing, stay safe

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks Chris!

[@Pierpi205]

An extraordinary video, very useful for all Hasselblad enthusiast!

[@sailonstellarwinds]

Your work is so beautiful, Andrew.

[@lysolboss]

Great work, happy to see this huge project work out for you and especially happy that it gives all this information for people

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Much appreciated!

[@michaelanderberg]

Thank you very much for an excellent review and it has helped me a lot in understanding the various XCD-lenses! I hope, as more come out, that Hasselblad keeps sending them to you for review.

[@labonnemedia]

There is just something about the Hasselblad. I got an X1D II with the 45p and have been shooting that for like a month. I'm in love. I sold one of my kidneys and now have the 80mm 1.9 otw. There is just something freaking magical about it.

[@onewineproduction1823]

Great work! Very interesting to have it all reviewed at once!! 👏👏👏🙏

[@peasantrobot]

Speechless! Thank you Andrew, this has become my guide regarding this system! A system that i will dream to have it and, if not, is something that I will recommend to my daughter.

[@eurivaldobezerra]

Good job! I will purchase my X2D 100C tomorrow. You helped a lot!

[@Chris-ey7zy]

The colors looks incredible

[@dianasalahan]

your photography is so beautiful! your review is amazing. thank you

[@michaelascher2693]

Great video, thank you.. And man.. Your shown photography is AMAZING !

[@antoniolabayen8288]

Thank you for the enlightening review. You covered some great details like filter size, weight and cost comparison, which I find very important.

[@PatrickKelliherlongwood]

Andrew, thank you for the review. I been saving up for a medium format camera and was really interested in the Hasselblad but was not sure with the lens choices. This was a great review of all the lenses and their capabilities. As a former Fuji shooter, I was looking at their medium format, just because I know their lenses better. This review was very helpful.

[@DeutschesDummyDepot]

Very helpful, I like the way you put all these lenses through the same testing situations. I use the 907X with the 45mm/f4, often with the manual focus to maximize the stunningly crisp results. Thanks for helping me dream about getting the next lense, (probably the 80/f1.9). And your pics are awesome, but you know that.

[@matthewjethro2874]

I must have watched this run through a f handful of times now, but I must admit. I kind of want to see you go through all of the lenses in a more in depth documentarian / narrative style of review that you have done with so many Fujifilm lenses. This was always a big part of your charm for me. :D

[@psychologienerd7546]

best review ever, thats how it should be done

[@linjasonlin]

Thanks for a fantastically useful and candid review.

[@c73w]

I recommend using the new lenses and telling us your thoughts with the X2D 100C 🔥😍

[@whitelotus_zero]

Excellent comparison and review. Keep up the great work 👌🏻🥂

[@Bob4golf1]

Thanks for doing this video - very informative! I have owned the X1D for 4 years and recently upgraded to the X1D ii which I love - BIG improvement! I also own the 30, 45 (orig), 80, 120 and 135 w/1.7 lenses. As you rightly point out, the lenses are impressive but, to be honest, I was a bit disappointed with the 120 macro lens as it typically can't get close enough to really capture the finer details without having to crop substantially in post thus reducing the granularity of the file. So, I bought 2 extension tubes from Fotodiox - the 22mm & 48mm which are designed for the X system. I use these tubes with the 80/1.9 lens (although you can use them with any of the lenses) and you can get close, I mean really close! Fact is, I could have done without the 48 as it gets you almost too close but they only cost about $100 each and work reasonable well. As a consequence I am selling the 120 macro and will probably buy the 60 mm lens (I'm addicted to primes). My experience with the Hasselblad X system has overall been positive even though the X1D was a buggy camera for the 4 years I owned it and Hasselblad never got around to cleaning up the firmware bugs. Upgrading to the X1D ii has proven to be a very positive experience and the camera is well behaved and reliable. My trip into medium format has been long and I've taken a few missteps along the way but I have to say (at this point in the journey) things have settled down nicely and it is now a pleasure to shoot, edit and display some really incredible images with this system. It takes a while to get into the medium format rhythm of shooting but once you get it - it shows!

[@marcusnz232]

Great video. Can you do another one with the new V series lenses? Lovely images by the way.

[@winedemonium]

What a great review idea and execution. I'm really grateful for this review. First time around I tried the X1D v1 with 45/3.5 and 90/3.2 and though I loved the form factor, found the camera not fully implemented well, and the lenses so-so. But this time around, with lenses like the 45P and 80/1.9, together with the moderate upgrades in the v2 (and 907X), the system is back on the radar. Your review is super helpful! Also, great work. I like your project. Will you publish a book?

[@Vikingdescendent]

Amazing quality images! Very fine work. Some cameras bring us into a new level of inspiration and skill. Well done.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thank you very much!

[@79Tiamat]

Thank you for this system overview! Really nice to have a complete XCD comparison in one video. I am a bit puzzled about the focus performance of the 80/1.9, that you describe as "maybe the fastest than any other (XCD) lenses I tried". I always read just the opposite about the 80/1.9 and never really bothered to try one because of that, preferring the 90/3.2 for its lightness and (supposedly?) quicker AF :)

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

My test was certainly not scientific in the AF depertment. It seemed more snappy anecdotally, but it very well could have been in my mind

[@79Tiamat]

@@AndrewGoodCamera then maybe some firmware upgrade after the introduction of the 80/1.9 improved the AF performance? Because almost every review at launch said that it was slower than the rest of the XCDs, "probably due to heavier glass to move, dual motor, etc." But I've also noticed that X1D & XCD opinions are often all over the place... much more so than other systems. Anyway, now I have to try it :)

[@feherberci]

Thank you for the video - you should ask a comission from Hasselblad. I was a professional photographer and decided to retire due to my 3 decade experience in the international media. It is not about my age just wanted to change. But I still love photography so decided to keep only one set and sell the others. After your videos I bought an X1DII and 4 lenses from Hasselblad. (Kept two other lenses: Canon TS24 and Zeiss Otus 85 and using with adapter…) I am enjoying the being a hobby photographer.

[@niclasvestefjell]

Thanks for doing theese kinds of rewiews! Love every single one of them. This one was like an early Christmas present though 🤗 Beeing a X1DII user myself, I couldn’t have wished for a better walk through of all the lenses to the system. Thank you! And BTW, really nice images that you had captured (as always)! / Niclas Vestefjell, Sweden

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks Niclas!

[@johnnychin4777]

Please make an update video for the 38mm, 55mm, and 90mm new lenses!

[@andrewthompson5609]

Great work. One thing I noticed is you kept mentioning was the not perfectly round Bokeh. There is a setting in the menu system of the X1d to allow for round Bokeh. It was an update quite awhile ago. If you turn that on it cleans it up very nicely.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Right. I did mention that. I didn't know about that until after I'd tested with most lenses, however.

[@andreasstolten9179]

Very nicely done. Quite helpful. The 4.0/45mm P and the 3.2/90mm are on the shopping list. (1.8/80mm is quite nice, however too hearvy for daily use.) Thanks for taking the effort.

[@BaddFrogg777]

Excellent review. Hoping 2022 Hasselblad brings 4K video to it's next body.

[@leonardnorwitz3537]

They already have it: H6D-100c

[@duringthemeanwhilst]

wow, that is one stunning shot at 0:40 - congratulations, you should be really proud of that :-)

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks!

[@thecoment3371]

Was that sarcasm :-) ? Its a extremely vell known place with ab 3,5mill similar photos online. www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=watchman+sunset its packed evry night photographerstrailnotes.com/the-watchman-photographers-guide

[@duringthemeanwhilst]

@@thecoment3371 a good photo is a good photo - regardless of how many times it's been shot before - so no I wasn't being sarcastic. I was complimenting the photographer on a good job well done.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

While I'm not "extremely proud" of that photo, I don't think the fact that thousands of photographers have taken the same shot diminishes the fact that it's a beautiful shot. Beauty is beauty. In this video, I'm more interested in how these lenses capture the beauty. That aside, I'm actually extremely glad that I took that shot, even though it's been captured thousands of times, because you can actually no longer take this shot. You can no longer stop along that bridge and there is no other way to capture that curve of the river and that scene that way.

[@duringthemeanwhilst]

@@AndrewGoodCamera you should be extremely proud of it Andrew. Landscape photography is my business and that shot is beautiful in its tonality. I'd be really proud if I took that :-)

[@113dmg9]

Awesome project concept.

[@113dmg9]

I feel "Bokeh" is overrated. With film cameras, my belief was that bokeh aberrations meant you shot wrong/badly.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Agreed

[@ianstewart9153]

Practical, comprehensive and helpful. Thank you.

[@WickBeavers]

I was hoping to use off brand glass. Anything you know of that directly uses the XCD Mount?

[@Bayonet1809]

No, your best bet is adapting. Just remember that the bodies do not have focal plane shutters.

[@seanl3121]

Very helpful review, thank you. I guess you mentioned, but there is a firmware update, when toggled-on it gives you round bokeh when lenses are shot wide open (rather than the hexagonal mentioned here).

[@LarryShootsPhotos-uv8cr]

Just what I came for! I'm going to get the unfashionable 3.2 90mm, its very affordable in the used market, and I want something to complement my 28p & 45p. I feel this will be a great portrait and landscape addition, and I've never had a client look at or comment on bokeh :-)

[@rbos6001]

I agree with everyone else even after 4 years this was a very useful video. Hope you can get the chance from Hasselblad to redo this with the new lenses they added. The 25v 28p 38v 55v,90v and there 20-35mm zoom. And if possible curious how they differ in autofocus terms though dont expect wonders.

[@MarshallLeng]

great work! lens testing part is pretty interesting and helpful. Now I'm wondering what should I get after 45p...:)

[@ersanark4608]

I wish you could compare them with GFX system.

[@ersanark4608]

I see but i havent see any good comparison both system in youtube. There are lots of Fullframe brand comparisons like Sony vs Canon but i would like to see GFX vs Hasselblad. If someone use one of these brands doesnt use the other. So there is almost nothing about it.

[@codythomas2583]

@@ersanark4608 They had a video up in July that compared the Hasselblad to the gfx 50r.

[@ProfessorHermesBug]

Might be time to do another review to include the new releases in your comprehensive guide

[@thedondeluxe6941]

Still a great video after the re-upload. Even greater, in fact :-)

[@nickhuggins8660]

Great, informative and helpful review and I’m going to buy one in the next few weeks. I love your work! Where were you shooting the rural pictures? I love the look, tone and feel of them.

[@Mike-qo8nm]

Lol I'm watching this like my wife will allow me to purchase any of these. Great video!

[@andyvan5692]

Andrew, also if the 35-75 is not quite your 'cup of tea' ; try the Leica equivalent MF system the S and S2, or the SL, these have a 24-90 mm zoom in their respective lens mount system, which is as you say longer at each end of the ranges :-)

[@michaelboudreau2285]

great work. I love the whole video 👍

[@rolandrickphotography]

Enlightening review, many thanks. At 6:52 , that’s probably a sacrifice to some lens quality parameters, my Summilux-M 50 1.4 asph. has a close focus distance of 0.7m (2’ 3.5”), light years in comparison to e.g. the about 0.9m of the Canon RF 100-500. The Summilux-M 50 has of course no AF and no weather sealing. That would be interesting in comparison to the WR labelled Fuji GF lenses: how good is the dust and moisture sealing the the X2D (the new one) and the lenses of your comparison plus the new 38/2.5, 55/2.5 and 90/2.5?

[@sansjamin]

I actually shoot action with the 135mm - all I have to say is that when you nail the shot, there's nothing that can come close to the color rendering and depth -- it turns action into art.

[@mackrun7029]

Great video. Leica S lenses are also very consistent.

[@ruben619448]

I’m considering the new 907x but I just don’t know what lens. This was very helpful.

[@nathanhirschphotography871]

We are on the same page about bokeh being overrated and external focus movement in lenses (boo!). Great overview of this system!

[@stevelink3]

Hello Andrew! Thank you for this excellent comparison of the Hasselblad lens system! As a Nikon Z System landscape, product and macro photographer, I have been quite satisfied with the image sharpness and detail I obtain from the Nikon Z System (Z7, Z8 and several lenses). However, as I do on occasion produce very large prints *30"x40" and up), I've always had an interest in medium format. So, in your opinion, do you feel that the X2D with, say, the Hasselblad 120/3.5 XCD Macro lens would give me a very substantial improvement in image quality (particularly image sharpness and detail rendition) in the large prints, over either the Fuji or my Nikon Z System? (Also, as I don’t shoot video, that’s another reason the X2D appeals to me, as well as the NCS of the Hasselblad files, since I’m somewhat colorblind, and it sounds like color-correcting the Fuji files would be a nightmare for me in particular!) Thank you sir!

[@rf8221]

I think the reason they keep their aperture blades hexagonal is to keep the 8 pointed stars when stoped down. My H lenses give me beautiful 8 pointed stars when I stop them down past f8 and I love them. The bokeh is also very pleasing (to me) even if its' hexagonal shape.

[@caneestudio]

For landscape one could go with tilt/swing Alpa body with the hassy sensor.

[@di4378]

Excellent, Excellent review!

[@rojpix]

yeah pretty helpful I bought the 35-75 with mine not sure about getting another lens

[@nodrogkam]

Thank you for making this video, especially with the images you shared.

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@sgroadie6367]

Nice. Please do one with adapted HC and HCD lenses.

[@peterivarsson9267]

Amazing pictures, great review

[@PiotrPavlov]

20:05 photo is soooooo cooooool!!!

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

Thanks!

[@baharam98]

Just the review I need. Thank you!

[@jeffscott2246]

thanks for the guide, andrew! 🤙🏾

[@AndrewGoodCamera]

You bet!

[@calvinchann1996]

Great. I’ve got the 45P to go with my 907x and am thinking about where to go. The 90 is a very likely, but unsure about the wider end. So, after watching the video, I’m going to go with the 30 (over the 21) and 80 (over the 90) in addition to the 45P that I already have.

[@EricGibaud]

Fantastic video! thank you!

[@rolandrickphotography]

🤩 Is that your car at 17:40 or also part of the decay and left there? If it’s the 2nd, wow, it’s in an almost perfect condition relative to its age.

[@bitspacemusic]

I hope you understand that the same compression is in all the lenses. Only the crop changes. With the newer 100MP cameras and backs, cropping in on the far end of the photos shouldn't be problem, if you want that compressed perspective on the wider lenses.

[@theazurian2778]

Kinda curious if you will ever update this list?