HATTON’S HOWLER at Chadwick Model Railway | 192.

How this slipped by Hattons Quality Control, heaven only knows!
It's a Howler at Chadwick Model Railway 192.
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[@Teesbrough]

Goodness me. £111! Hatton’s former Buying Manager, Dave Martin (who has an excellent O Gauge exhibition layout) is now Buying Manager at ‘Clark Rail works’ which is the secondhand section of Ellis Clark Trains. In their sponsored adverts on Jenny Kirk’s KZbin videos I noted especially Dave’s comment ‘we don’t stock sub-standard trains; all our models are fully tested…’.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating Will. I have a train on its way from Ellis Clark. Regards, Charlie

[@MartinStephenson-gy7pd]

You would have thought that Hattons would do an inspection first of all the " pre owned " products. It begs the question of how much did Hattons buy it for in the first place ? Great video Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I totally agree, Martin, this is a shocker. Regards, Charlie

[@stevetrossell4255]

On a positive note, I have made several purchases of ‘pre-owned’ locos from Clark Railworks and been very satisfied. I believe their items are closely examined, tested and accurately described before going on sale.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Steve, I have one on the way so fingers crossed. Regards Charlie

[@NathanielKempson]

Me too! Snapped up myself a C Class in SECR green a few months ago, gorgeous little thing! Runs like a dream. Clarks Railworks prices are also second to none and for the most part VERY sensible. Well reccomended.

[@MrDavil43]

That's my experience too. I have no qualms about buying from that company.

[@stephendavies6949]

Yes Clark seemed to have got it right

[@anthonydevlin1956]

Hi Charlie, What an amazing thing Tim did to help us all learn together. You can see how much we love your channel. Such a disappointing outcome. Being in Australia it is very hard to get British stock and takes a long time to get here (let alone return. I would have been devastated to have received this. As a beginner, the current climate and the expense of new stock, we rely on building our fleet on pre-owned items to learn together. This is why your channel is so important to us beginners; you are always considerate of cost. However, being stung like this is enough to give up the hobby for us beginners . Thanks for having the courage to share this, and hopefully retailers will take note. Thank you for all you do for the modelling community. Blessings Anthony

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Anthony, for such a heartwarming comment. Regards, Charlie

[@JoshLikesFuzz]

I bought a second hand model aircraft kit from Hattons a few months back. Wasn't cheap, but it was a rarer older kit and the website said it was all there. When I got it and opened the box it was empty with the exception of two wings and a bit of old sprue :(

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A shocking revelation, Josh. Regards, Charlie.

[@acftus]

An eye opener Charlie. Pretty slapdash on Hatton's part. Pretty sure they will up their game now!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

One would like to think so Kevin. Regards, Charlie.

[@andrewfurniss8944]

Non runner, sold as seen. To be fair, the purchaser should have scrutinised it as much as possible. Sold as seen is exactly that.

[@DarkLord8888]

Well, that took an unexpected twist... No circuitry would certainly make it a "non-runner" You raise good points here, be very careful what you buy

[@martyn6792]

Same for me

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks gentlemen, quality assurance really isn’t good enough. Regards, Charlie

[@AlecDenholm]

This is in line with my Hattons experience. I ordered a number of pre-owned Hornby Pullman coaches, 35 quid each. No mention at all of any issues in the listing, so given the price I assumed they'd be good as new. One arrived separated from the chassis. This was abundantly clear without even opening the box, because the loose body rattled around in the box. Oh and a missing buffer. I can only assume no one even looked at anything other than the sticker on the end of the box before valuing it and putting it up for sale.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I think fundamentally Alec, they just can’t be bothered. Sad situation really. Regards, Charlie

[@yamaoutboard]

I was going to say Charlie I have a spare pcb board here for it but glad your sending it back

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most kind mate. However, I think Hattons need to investigate the problem. Regards, Charlie

[@yamaoutboard]

No worries Charlie hope you are well

[@stephendavies6949]

Hi Charlie, First, you were so right not to give out your home address. Whilst the vast majority of your loyal followers will be good, honest, gentle model railways fans, there will always be one who isn't. Also, I'm pleased that the incident didn't put you off sharing your exploits and knowledge with us in your wonderfully entertaining, personable and skillful way. Great to see you marking Hattons card. As we all know, there is lots of junk out there for sale, peddled at sky high prices, which is why we need to buy with confidence from trusted brands such as Hattons. I hope they will learn from your intervention and ensure they only sell quality items to modellers. PS - Clark Railworks seem to have got it right: you pay a little bit more, but have the reassurance that every model has been tested, comes with a warranty, and is described accurately prior to being offered for sale.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes Stephen, indeed, we do need to buy with care. Regards, Charlie

[@TwoRailfans]

New subscriber. You are not alone on the "less." lol A lot of the fun sometimes though is getting things up and running.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it useful TR. Regards Charlie

[@davidberlanny3308]

Hi Charlie, Nice gesture from Tim shame you couldn't get a good repair video out of it but at least he will get his money back. Have a great weekend!!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks David, it’s a case of buyer beware ! Regards, Charlie

[@nigelcryer5301]

As a teenager, I remember poring over Hattons' ads in the Railway Modeller - they were of particular interest as their ads had small sections devoted to trams and 009, both of which were a fascination. I lived around 20 miles from Liverpool so persuading my father to take me there was inevitable and their shop in Smithdown Road didn't disappoint. I believe they relocated to a different part of Smithdown Road at some stage but right up to their closure there, the shop never disappointed with cabinet after cabinet containing models, both new and secondhand. It was one of those places that made our hobby tick and a true family business. I was therefore somewhat excited to visit their new premises in Widnes when they relocated - if Smithdown Road was that good, then Widnes was going to be amazing. Sadly, it wasn't and it was just a retail counter and a few cabinets. It's obvious that their priorities now lie in mail order. I'm probably going to get lots of dislikes for what I'm about to say but Hattons is one of the biggest threats to this hobby. Granted, their mail order service is probably the best that there is and their prices are almost always amongst the lowest, if not the lowest. We can justify using mail order because there are no local model shops - that's certainly the case in the part of London where I live - but local model shops are closing because of mail order. It's a chicken and egg situation but give me a well stocked shop any day even if the prices are a little higher. Model shops have the potential to inspire and keep the hobby going and maybe even growing. Sadly, your experience with this model just gives me another reason to avoid Hattons like the proverbial plague, not that I really needed any more excuses! Oh, and as a post script, I couldn't believe the price that Hattons were charging for a locomotive they freely admitted was a non-runner; if that's not an indication of where their priorities lie these days, I don't know what is!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Many thanks for such an interesting and honest comment Nigel. Buyer beware! Regards, Charlie

[@PhilipBallGarry]

Hornby's decision to make TT120 available only by direct mail order puts both the scale itself and the independent retailer at a disadvantage straight away. My local model shop was very excited about the "new" scale and ready to invest significant space for stocking it. To be snubbed in this way certainly damaged their relationship with Hornby. They've said that if Hornby reverse the decision and give model shops access to TT120 they're not interested any more.

[@odilemahot2011]

Thanks Charlie, This is one that needs to stay with us all it shows the importance of using a trusted supplier.

[@stevemawer848]

Trusted and competent supplier!" 🙂

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m with you on this one fellas. Regards, Charlie

[@andydavidson9440]

A topic worth highlighting Charlie to raise awareness of the potential pitfalls. I expect your actions will sharpen the service Hattons and others provide as I am sure they value their reputation

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Andy, I do hope that some will take some notice. Regards Charlie

[@michaelimpey1407]

Charlie, you are right, it is a howler. I am glad Tim got a refund. But there is an old saying: "buyer beware". Yes we have consumer protection laws, but Hattons were taken for a ride as well. I think buying "pre-owned" can save some money, but can also cost you more.Great eye-opener video, than you, as usual for sharing. Cheers, and stay safe, Michael

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Michael, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting mate. Regards, Charlie

[@NathanielKempson]

Hattons taken for.....a ride? What.......do they not posses the ability to double check?........Rule number 3: Never beleive what you are told always double check. This is ALL on Hattons here, the only people taken for a ride was Tim who bought it.

[@michaelimpey1407]

@@NathanielKempson sorry, I have never dealt with Hattons, as I live in Australia. If you say Hattons are not a good business to deal with, I will take your word. Cheers, and stay safe.

[@AllensTrains]

I have heard this kind of story before. I think the probability is that the loco had belonged to a child and his Dad could not repair it! You can get lucky buying second hand. I just got two Hornby ex-LSWR Southern coaches for £40 When they arrived, a compressor had fallen off. I glued it back into place. When I looked inside, there were passengers fitted, and a rear lamp. I took the coaches apart, and low and behold they had Train Tech lights, worth £20 each fitted! The batteries were dead. I put in new batteries, and the lights worked! Thanks for uploading.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks for the comment Allen. Much appreciated. Regards, Charlie

[@alanrobertson9790]

If I was Hattons I'd be embaressed. £111 for a loco in that condition. Its actually funny coincidence because I received a couple of e-mails from Hattons this week about their bargain sale. I looked through out of interest and thought no bargains there. A couple of days later this video comes out.

[@scooby2142]

Me too.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Very much buyer beware, gentleman. Regards, Charlie

[@LittleWicketRailway]

Hattons sold me a "DDC Ready" Warship recently which was DC/analogue. There was confusion around when the model was updated by Bachmann and to be fair they updated their database very quickly. They also sold me a DCC fitted model, but it wasn't clear from the photos that the previous owner had removed, and disposed of, all the cab detail (firebox etc.) in order to make room for that decoder. Fortunately Bachmann have a brilliant spares website so it was all easy enough to replace. I like Hattons, but for the prices they sell their second-hand models for, I would like them to test and lightly service them before passing them on along with more accurate descriptions. Excellent boxes though 😜

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Excellent point Rob. I’m glad you’re with me on this one, regards, Charlie

[@ngaugefouroaksstreetstatio6932]

Having such a vast channel as yours means you can help keep our suppliers comparatively honest and expose any weaknesses in their processes which helps us all. I expect there are times when these suppliers also get duped especially when buying a large selection and they do not possibly have the resources to check everything in a timely manner. However they have done the right thing by offering a full refund. Good video Charlie helps us all.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks four Oaks, that’s very kind of you to say so. Regards, Charlie

[@tonyslight826]

They have no option but to give a refund

[@SC68]

HI Charlie, I think this happens far more than what we all think with pre-owned locos! I've had a few bad experiences with N Gauge locos purchased from another of the major retailers and had serious issues with their 'sold as seen' statements. I do honestly now question whether these locos are properly inspected or tested at all as some of the issues don't take long at all to find! I've actually had far better loco buying experiences from individual Ebay sellers than the major retailers who generally charge more anyway! I however must point out in the cases referred to I was fully refunded but it did tarnish my purchasing experience for locos that I had sought long and hard for. Thanks for the video Charlie! Cheers Gary

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comment, Gary. Yes we are all vulnerable to Cowboys. Regards, Charlie

[@rtalbot87]

Well done again Charlie. Hattons wouldn't know that their customer is a fraudster BUT, before selling the item they should know ! Clearly their evaluation / assessment procedure is woeful.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I can only agree R 87. Regards, Charlie

[@conistonoldman]

A while back, Hattons offered for sale a Hornby Castle Class 4-6-0, with the following description: "pre-owned, wobbly inconsistent runner, gears slipping, missing front bogie, body loose on chassis, crew and real coal added, missing drawbar, poor box". So, in other words, a complete dog. It was being offered in a time-limited 30% off sale. For the princely sum of £91. I can only imagine that their warehouse is stacked high with unsold stock. Or that there are a lot of daft people out there.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That is such a wicked price. Let’s hope it sits on the shelves for a very long time. Regards, Charlie

[@1701_FyldeFlyer]

Blimey! Have to say Ive bought a number of second hand locos from Hatton's and they've all been good and some like new. But, I stay away from the 'non runners' for obvious reasons. It also surprises me how much Hatton's charge for these 'non runners' and some absolute wrecks. They are frequently over £120. You'd have thought Hattons would at least have opened these non runners in the past, I bet they do from now on! Cheers Charlie!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, hopefully I’ve put a flea in their ear. Regards, Charlie

[@Sandlingjunction]

great Vid chum, an eye opener for sure. all the best as always, maybe a catchup sometime is in order, Paul

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, I look forward to it Paul. Regards, Charlie

[@andersholt4653]

Thank you Charlie for a very eye-opening video. Worth bearing in mind when shopping on the various auction sites. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Anders, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie

[@markvickery4032]

How bad is that, I get emails from hattons all the while with pre owned items, I use tennents trains for all my gear I have purchased 2 second hand train's from them both been excellent value for money all tried and tested before resale Pete and Bob who run the shop fantastic full of knowledge and honest as the days long.👍👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Mark, that’s very reassuring that you have found a good honest trader. Regards, Charlie

[@chrisjubb-hearnborough]

Similar experience from Hattons although slightly different. Was checking their bargains section and they had a RHTT listed as brand new for a bargain of £99. Snapped it up in an instant. What I received was half of the RHTT that was damaged. Turns out that it was a damaged return that Hattons had relisted as new. Got a full refund inc price of me sending it back to them

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes Chris, but it doesn’t make up for the hassle does it. Regards, Charlie

[@chrisjubb-hearnborough]

@Chadwick Model Railway no it doesnt Charlie and the disappointment of thinking g you've got an absolute bargain only to receive half of the model that was damaged!

[@marconeill9510]

This is shocking. Well done for sorting it out for the guy Charlie! Top lad! 👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Marc, you’re most kind. Regards Charlie

[@PaulSmith-pl7fo]

Hi Charlie. I believe a variant on "pre-owned" is "pre-loved" (LOL)!!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Sounds better than unloved! Regards Charlie

[@brucewoods9377]

I obtained (here in Australia) a “pre-owned” Lima class 55 “Deltic, I think) non runner. It was missing buffers, the chassis was glued to the body shell and it was a non runner. The chassis is knackered because some one (the previous owner) broke the motorised bogie out of the chassis without referring to the instructions. They had also attacked the motor wit a 4” bolt (aka soldering iron) and destroyed the brush housings. Item now relegated to my junk pile as it costs too much to obtain replacement chassis etc from the U K.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks for sharing your shocking tale Bruce. Regards, Charlie.

[@Beatlefan67]

We were at the Bristol show and bought a beautiful J94 (very posh box, sorry I can't recall the maker, but it was not Hornby or Bachmann) The vendor had a huge stand and he said it works fine, all tested etc. My Grandson took it home and soon rang as he was more than a bit annoyed, as being a DC loco, it went backward when the rest of his locos went forwards, and vice-versa. We took the smokebox door off and there was the answer. Someone had removed the chip (fair enough) but put the blanking thingy in the wrong way around. Okay; sorted. The following week I bought a beautiful as-new Dean Goods from a bloke who'd shut his shop. We got it home and immediately tried it on my layout. Nothing! The label was on the front with the chap's number, so I rang and left a message. He was so distressed about it he insisted on driving to my house and giving me my money back! Thank you John Roberts of Turleigh Models! Top man. So the lesson here is really 'Test and Try, Before You Buy' (- and thanks to Savoy Brown for the old rock song!)

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comments, John. I do know John Roberts, I will vouch for his honesty, he really is one of the best. Regards, Charlie

[@ikonseesmrno7300]

Hopefully Hatton's tightens down on their "autopsies" before pawning off a dead loco again. Some learn from their mistakes, some don't. I wouldn't throw out an opportunity to buy from them because of a situation like that. There's going to be a few extra questions asked before purchase though. And thank you for the marvelous unboxing. That's the way it should be! Regards!!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment mate, many thanks, regards, Charlie

[@richardkammerer2814]

Thanks, sir, for making this video. I’ll keep a sharp eye over here and make sure I’m as best protected against loss as possible.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Richard, it can be a struggle picking out, or avoiding the lemons! Regards, Charlie

[@brianevans4200]

Hi Charlie. I am getting mixed up about which video I have seen. I didn't mean film, I meant your KZbin item, but also on a couple of other vlogs on KZbin. To me, they are all films! By the way, I like your vlogs on here (I wouldn't have a clue how to do them ) and you are a great modeller with good info to pass on.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Brian, it’s great to have you onboard. Regards Charlie

[@davidlidbury1244]

Hi Charlie thanks for taking time out to help Tim, a fellow model railway enthusiast. More so thank you for bringing very dodgy supplier behaviour to light. Its endemic of the way some companies are these day with their slap-dash attitude. Some good points from other subscribers about VAT! I hope Hatton's see your video and for one won't use them again. Take care, Charlie and see you in you next brilliant video.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks David, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed my revelations. Regards, Charlie

[@rogerwolstenholme2710]

Thank YOU Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re very welcome, Roger. Regards, Charlie.

[@mels1811]

Thank you for another Excellent video and info Charlie

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome Mels. Regards Charlie

[@timsully8958]

Bloody hell Charlie! That is atrocious 😮 I would have expected better from Hattons, as I’m sure would most. They perhaps think it’s just their own version of eBay and are treating it as such, but they are wrong because it is the assumption of quality that means people buy from them in the first place. Just because it is ‘sold as seen’ doesn’t stop people believing that someone has surely checked the item, and they are exploiting that 😡 A real shame, since I suspect nothing of this nature would have occurred back in the days of the old store. It’s not malicious or deceitful, but there is a level of negligence which smacks of indifference. Well done for chasing them up mate 👍🍻🍀

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a brilliant comment Tim. I certainly could not have put it better myself. Regards, Charlie.

[@roystudds1944]

Wow Charlie. I’ve never bought anything from Hatton’s but believed them to be a reliable retailer. Don’t think I’ll be able to give them my business now. Thanks for sharing. Roy.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I think it’s the secondhand stuff that you need to be wary of Roy. Regards, Charlie

[@RabidWombatz]

I’ve bought a lot of track items from Hattons and found them to be great; international shipping to Oz, N scale. I don’t really buy 2nd Hans from anywhere (except rolling stock, MT).

[@ghostontheline]

Hi Charlie, thanks for the video, apart for the problems with the loco that is a lot of money to pay for a Hornby Class 31. I have found that it is worth buying used items from sellers like Ray Heard at model railway exhibitions. You pay a very good price and always money back if there is a problem. Cheers Pete ( Ghosty)

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’ve done exactly the same Pete. I bought a class 50, which wouldn’t run on DCC. Ray refunded the cash without question. Regards, Charlie

[@peterjones7673]

Cracking video short Charlie great advice yet again, thanks.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Peter, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie

[@davidbutton3500]

Wow! 111 pounds for a non-running loco? IMO, that's criminal.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I couldn’t agree more David, it’s wicked. Regards, Charlie

[@platformten5958]

Hi David. Don't you mean £174.49p ? Paul.

[@darkfrag83]

​@@platformten5958 for a brand new one. This one appears to have been purchased from Hattons' pre-owned section.

[@platformten5958]

@@darkfrag83 Hi Matt. You might be right. Maybe I missed something there. Paul. 👍

[@paulhargreaves1497]

​@@ChadwickModelRailway I find Hattons used prices all over the place ....non runners it seems are almost always nearly the same price as runners! Certainly not worth the risk! If they were really cheap ...take the risk, and if no luck fixing, just have them parked at the depot.

[@onkyonky4740]

Oh wow, I hope those bad practices don't put anyone off the hobby. Well done for shining a light on that Charlie and Tim.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome mate. Their practices were shocking. Regards, Charlie

[@paulbottrill8391]

Wow that’s an eye opener, thanks to you Charlie we will all be more cautious when purchasing pre owned ( 2nd hand) models.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes Paul, getting shafted isn’t fun. Regards, Charlie

[@jeffjones6107]

Interesting short video that Charlie 👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Jeff, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie

[@gblount642]

Just point to note, the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 was replaced at least 15 years ago. The statement, “Sold as seen “ is also illegal for an online transaction as the buyer cannot physically inspect the item. Hatton have been ignoring Consumer Protection legislation for years!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Wow, what a great revelation.GB. Regards Charlie

[@marklittlejohn1457]

Bugger thankyou for the tips Charlie and video

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome, Mark. Regards, Charlie.

[@paulnorval9646]

A very inter project you started with Tim. I’m sure it wasn’t the outcome you originally expected. From my experience with Hatton’s I would have expected much more through checking of the Loco. Good experience for all to see what can happen with second hand (yes old term) items. Being in Australia it’s even more relevant as the distance and ability to speak with a person is impacted. Looking forward to your layout progress, cheers Paul

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Paul, hopefully you learn from our mistakes. Regards, Charlie

[@eamonncanfer8773]

Hi Charlie, to be fair hattons did state that it was a non runner, sold as seen. Whilst this may not be as exploratory or investigative as your findings it is somewhat truthful. I can see that the motor was intact, would it have not been a fairly straightforward repair in sourcing a new PCB for around £20ish? Some soldering and fitment of the decoder would’ve turned this loco into a runner. This particular loco was subject to the unfortunate mazak rot which plagued earlier class 31 models, it looks like this particular one has escaped the plague and may of been worth saving. Many thanks for your video 👍🏻

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I understand your point of view Eamonn. However, it was clearly listed as DCC fitted which inflated its value . Clearly this was not the case. Regards, Charlie

[@johnmassey7687]

Hi Charlie thanks for the video .As Im in Canada it difficult to get reasonable priced British rolling stock over here so most of us tend to support the pre owned market in the uk .That being said the company you mentioned in the video seems to have had several hiccups like this recently, perhaps its the lack of trained assistants or what ever but there is no real excuse for selling wrongly identified items

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I think you’re right John. It’s just a lack of effort on their part, not bothering to take the body shell off of a locomotive prior to listing. Regards, Charlie

[@johnmassey7687]

@@ChadwickModelRailway following up from that I recently purchased a class 37 from Hattons listed as DCC ready and when it arrived it had a sound chip already installed. When I told them they said it was their mistake and I could keep it so kudos to them for accepting the loss

[@asp383]

For the price of "pre-owned" goods, I'm sure having someone spend a few minutes to open up the loco and have at least a visual check wouldn't dent their profit margins and being on various social media forums, this issue appears to be quite common with Hattons, which makes me very wary of buying used, unless I can test them out prior to handing over my money. At least they accepted their description wasn't good enough and are refunding Tim.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, we sing from the same song sheet on this one mate. Regards, Charlie

[@paulhargreaves1497]

They take several pictures, so they're taken out of the packaging....

[@Kryotek7]

I live in Texas and have spent around £6k at Hattons in the last year since I got back into the hobby, using the Trunk service. Almost all of that was on Used items. The vast majority was honestly represented but I have been stung and I have seen items that concerned me. I bought a used Hornby steam loco which Hattons advertised as a non-runner with an ESU sound decoder. When I received it I took it apart, and indeed there was an ESU sound decoder, but it had an obvious burn that had melted through the decoder insulation cover. So they were correct that it was a non-runner and had an ESU sound decoder, but failed to mention (or photograph while they had it disassembled) the damage they must have seen when they confirmed it had an ESU decoder. The other issues I see a lot with Hattons are they almost never confirm what brand decoder is fitted for DCC fitted models, which is especially important for models with sound decoders as they can range from £50 to 100+.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Alex, you make some excellent points. Regards Charlie

[@kenshores9900]

Charlie: Another great video. Shows that the buyer needs to be aware.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, Ken, prewarned is pre-armed. Regards, Charlie

[@kenshores9900]

@@ChadwickModelRailway Right oh.

[@gibbonsdp]

Hattons appear to run their pre-owned sales on the basis that it's cheaper to refund the occasional lemon than to inspect everything. So if you are buying non-runners it's a lucky dip; the problem is as likely to be trivial as it is terminal. So don't pay anything near full value for it (their pre-owned pricing can be very erratic) and don't expect them to have inspected it. But on the upside, they do accept returns on non-runners, whereas most other sellers do not.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I just believe that it’s a shocking situation. To describe the loco as a non-runner, and then the box as excellent seems to be a bizarre business strategy. Regards, Charlie

[@engineerjim2018]

Thanks Charlie for the timely warning. I was contemplating buying second hand but not now. I had always assumed, wrongly, that model shops at least checked they were runners.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, I too was most surprised. Regards, Charlie

[@johnwebster2525]

I bought a brand new hornby oo stanier pacific a few years ago. The valve gear was faulty. Hattons refused to take it back! They stated it has to go back to Hornby. I stated no - it has to come back to you as the retailer and a full refund! They again refused as they don’t carry out repairs ! I complained bitterly and after many emails I got a refund, FROM THAT DAY I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT ANYTHING FROM HATTONS ! I WOULD NOT TOUCH THEM WITH A BARGE POLE! All they are interested in are sales. Their customer service is awful. I now support my local model shop. John

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent routine, John, regards, Charlie

[@davidclough7346]

Well delivered video Charlie, as always. I've purchased 2 pre owned loco's from Hattons in the past 10 months, and both have exceeded my expectations - the descriptions given were not as bad as they suggested. Evening Star - non runner, 2 faults identified by Hattons, both easily fixed in 10 minutes with a soldering iron and the addition of a tail lamp, King James II, sold as non runner, fixed with a service. And prices were less than similar items I'd been tracking on E Bay for several weeks before purchase, and you have the assurance that Hattons would put it right in the event of any problems, as you have experienced. My guess is that as box shifters they don't have the time to take them apart so you just get visually obvious comments - if they did take them apart they would probably be fixing them and selling them for 30% more? And I don't think that's their business model - they rely on what appears to be a no quibble returns policy. I'll be keeping an eye out for that Class 31 as a DC person as no doubt it will get put back on sale with a correct description and 10 minutes with a soldering iron should fix it 🤞

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comment, David, regards, Charlie

[@GDGRailway47712]

I wouldn't. Certain Hornby class 31s suffered Mazak rot, where the chassis expands and/or warps. The fact that the mounting points of the body have gone is an indicator that has potentially happened.

[@davidclough7346]

@@GDGRailway47712 I admit I've never knowingly had a loco with Mazak rot, and all of my fleet has been purchased second hand. Charlie may have spotted it if it had (although I think his attention was somewhat distracted by a more serious issue 😉). We shall see 🤞

[@leestoddart7014]

That's disappointing! I'm glad to hear that Hattons have accepted responsibility and are going to refund Tim. The "Sold as seen" defence wouldn't work when buying stuff on line.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I think it was rather shameful Lee. However, Tim has now received his refund. He has a future plan to send me something else as a challenge! Regards, Charlie

[@Tinhat47]

I’ve bought lots from Hatton’s and luckily haven’t had any issues. The biggest description error I had was ordering a DCC-ready Bachmann Derby Lightweight that turned out to have DCC chips in the powered and unpowered car.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Matt, they certainly know how to shoot themselves. In the foot! Regards, Charlie

[@keithedmunds7536]

i must be the lucky one ive purchased a lot of pre owned over the years from rails of sheffield never had a problem i found them very reliable and there description of models is usually right

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Kieth, it shows that somebody has their act together. Regards, Charlie

[@harperlarry49]

Wow, that is an eye opener. Nice work Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Larry, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie

[@philbartlett7898]

Very good video Charlie, and something that clearly needs calling out Well done

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Phil, regards, Charlie

[@ringmastermodels]

Noticing a few comments suggesting how much Hatton’s may have paid for this item in the first place. Reminds me of a story… Chances are, they paid VERY little. My local shop’s owner knew a man who had every single release of the old Bachmann class 25. Collected the lot, but fell on hard times and decided to move them on to Hatton’s. They gave him something ridiculous like 20 quid a pop. All mint, boxed and unused, DCC ready and all that jazz. He was distraught when he learnt that said local shop would’ve offered significantly more, easily sold at close to 100 each, on the basis on doubling the investment. He gave them away. Under no circumstances do I see it preferable to sell goods to these guys or buy said goods from them. Someone gets ripped off somewhere, whether that be the person who sold the item or bought it; their prices are awful on both ends!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thank you so much for such an intriguing comment. We would like a good deal, or even a fair deal. Not a deal that leaves bad taste in our mouths. Regards, Charlie

[@GDGRailway47712]

I suspect that if you went further, you'd find that 31 was actually suffering from Mazak rot. I think Hattons buy up collections, possibly from deceased modellers relatives who don't know the condition or history of all of them.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You make a good point. GDG. However, surely they should describe it properly. Regards, Charlie

[@GDGRailway47712]

@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, my thought is they probably work on volume of sales, too much coming through to examine everything thoroughly, probably just sticking it on a DC track and seeing if it runs. I've heard of people getting non-runners where the only thing was DC running was turned off on the decoder. I suspect that if they get 10% of stuff returned, they just refund and the cost of that would be less than the cost of checking everything properly.

[@adrianolsen-woodhamwoodtur4980]

I’m completely shocked that a loco in that state cost Tim £111.00. !! Not withstanding their refund offer, very poor form by Hattons

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I couldn’t agree more Adrian. Hopefully they’ll learn from this one. Regards, Charlie

[@alwhiteland6229]

Loco’s in this condition have their uses. Perfect candidate for a dummy loco to run as part of a double header… had it been priced around £50…

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, Al, I can only agree. Regards, Charlie

[@williamgunning4184]

Think before you sell your "cheaper" stuff to the big online retailers as the wheels, couplings etc. may be worth more to you than the price they are prepared to offer, you may need an old loco for spares at a later date, body swap etc. I have always found the best deal is to part exchange at your local model shop even if unboxed an "old" model may be worth more than you think. You might even make a profit on the deal.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks William, for such an excellent suggestion. Regards, Charlie

[@timfellows8334]

Have bought new from Hattons and always been very satisfied with the service, albeit not for a while. One wonders whether they might have checked it more thoroughly if they had known it was Charlie bound 😂 Thanks to Tim for initiating the challenge and I look forward to the next one

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Tim, they must “check run” used locos in the future. Regards Charlie

[@user-tk4gm9fz8y]

Hi Charlie! Greetings from Victoria, Australia. I never fail to learn from your videos. Thank you. Regards 192 - I had wondered myself how much attention to "Pre Owner merchandise" a company, such as Hatton's, was required to pay. Apparently "Buyer Beware" has been overturned in Britain by Legislation. I very much appreciate your efforts and advice.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Trevor, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Sold as seen, what a joke. Regards, Charlie

[@petercoumans5195]

Hi Charlie, thanks for this video. I Will remember this one before ordering second hand locos anywhere. Until now I was lucky with buying second hand ones. But this loco was real crap and the price extreem high.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Peter, I couldn’t agree more. Regards, Charlie

[@christopherdavis5544]

I bought a supposedly new "Tornado" train set from Hattons a while back. On receipt there was a bogie missing from one of the coaches, and the power connector was broken. It obviously didn't arrive from Hornby like that, so either it was second hand being sold as new, or someone at Hattons had robbed it to fix another one. Very poor business practice.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

The trouble is, of course, all this leaves a bad taste in our mouths. Regards, Charlie

[@davidgray6835]

Another informative video Charlie. I bought some 2nd or 3rd hand locos that were about as much use as a chocolate fire guard lol. Now I only buy new that way I’ve definitely got a guarantee in case of anything going faulty.

[@paulc9588]

Same as me. Pre-owned locos are usually overpriced anyway and rarely worth the saving over buying new. OK for rolling stock and bits and bobs, but locos should be brand new.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I do understand your point of you gentlemen, however, some people, especially for youngsters, just can’t afford the new prices. Regards, Charlie

[@brianevans4200]

I have only ever bought from Hatton when they had a shop in Allerton. I had no problems but everything I bought was new and I got them to test them in the shop. On principle I would never buy second-hand, particularly as some of their prices were not much cheaper than new. Now we know they are closing the business down, the reasons mentioned on the film, and also comments on here, could be why they are closing the business. In recent years they have focussed much more on "previously owned" that they have become more of a second hand toy shop.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Brian, which was the film that you referred to? Regards, Charlie

[@paulturnbull5861]

Brilliant video i will be very careful what i but even from the main players .... thanks Charlie

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome, Paul. Regards, Charlie.

[@TheSanibel]

Hatton have always been 100% in their dealing with me for over 30 years.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Reading the comments Rick, it only seems to be used locos. Regards Charlie

[@antonionunes9525]

Yes Charlie. And in the eBay ask always the seller about the conditions about non runners. Sometimes the seller have no idea because are not a train modeler. Sometimes it's a great deal and others a disgrace..... All the best Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thank you Antonio, for an excellent comment. Regards, Charlie

[@SuperRobertwillis]

short and sweet Charlie 😂❤

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I do my best, Bob. Regards, Charlie

[@bionicgeekgrrl]

Blimey! Fair play to Hatton though for immediately doing the right thing for you and tim. They have been defrauded and hopefully they have some way of recouping their losses here. I guess they could wire it to a decoder socket and offer it as running dc. Whether this extra time is worth it for them is another matter. Hopefully whoever has tricked them is on their list of bad customers never to deal with, though it does make me wonder if perhaps it could have been stolen and the sound chip ripped out to sell separately?

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Sadly BC, it should have been checked before they bought it. Regards Charlie

[@user-mh9cu1tj8i]

Love the 31’s such a pleasure bashing one at the SVR last weekend

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, they are such a marvellous locomotive. Regards, Charlie

[@johnodonoghue7381]

Great video Chas , you certainly sorted that out

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks John, but we shouldn’t have to put up with this standard of service. Regards, Charlie

[@akrills]

Well done, Inspector Clouseau!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome, Captain Hastings. Regards, Charles.

[@michaelchurchley4238]

unfortantly this happens far to often i myself often buy pre owned Australian locomotives and always get the seller to open the loco so i can see if it still has its circuit board intact as majority locos these days need the board to work if it has working lights great video there Charlie

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A good strategy Michael. Regards Charlie

[@gungadin1389]

Charlie is finishing my desires of a 56 yr old with middle age crisis of going back to the 70's and finish of his own layout. Thanks CHarlie- Sunil.....ps also its cheaper and also my family would not let me build a large layout.:))) Harrys garage is another place

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m sure that you will get your way Gungadin. It’s just a case of wearing them down! Regards, Charlie

[@bobharman7728]

Hi Charlie, I have a shipment coming from Hattons arriving next week here in he USA. Due to the high cost of new UK prototype model railway products building up stock can be expensive so 'second-hand' is a way around this. I have two locos in the box (first time I've done this) among other preowned stock so I''ll be double checking to see if the locos meet what was specified on the web page. I hope I don't have to return these for any reason! P.S. I had a bad experience buying through eBay and didn't get what I bid on, then got stiffed on the return shipping cost that should have been covered by the eBay UK retailer, who said they couldn't issue a shipper. So buyer beware! I enjoy your channel keep it up! Best Regards Bob Harman

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Many thanks for your comment Bob. Good luck with your shipment, I do hope that it’s all okay. Regards, Charlie

[@bobharman7728]

Hi Charlie, Glad to report the locos are running and so far I'm happy with the "second hand" quality I received. Cheers Bob!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s great news Bob. Regards, Charlie.

[@vernongardner1958]

Hi Charlie, Hattons definitely need to up their game on pre-owned stock. I wanted a 00 Clan Line locomotive and apart from Hornby's latest gold-plated model there had been little of interest in the secondhand market until I saw Hattons had a few available 4 months ago. Some were advertised with damage but 2 were advertised as 'Pristine' and 'good box'!! Nothing about whether they run or not but there is a refund policy to fall back on if they don't. So I purchased one. On opening it, I found the smoke deflector had broken off - possibly in transit - otherwise it looked alright. But, being broken, it wasn't pristine and I'd paid £110 for 'Pristine'. I asked for it to be exchanged for the other pristine model, but they said they couldn't reserve that for me, and if I wanted to be sure of getting it, I had to buy that as well and wait for the refund from the first. As I had a bit of time in which to send the first one back I decided to hold onto it, in case the second one wasn't as advertised. As it turned out it wasn't. It looked okay in the box but when I took it out the faux brass piping was in tatters!!!! It was shocking!! I immediately sent that back to Hattons and got a refund. The first one I decided to keep and repair but as it hadn't arrived in pristine condition I negotiated a £10 refund. Not great but better than nothing. Bottom line is that I do now have a Clan Line which runs nicely. One positive point to note, I did find that Hattons understand Customer service when dealing with issues like this and were very pleasant and easy to deal with. It's just a shame they don't put the same attention into checking and presenting their pre-owned models. Best regards, Vernon

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Vernon for your experiences. It seems ridiculous that they are prepared to put things right, rather than checking that they’re right in the first place. Regards, Charlie

[@chris-ryan]

An Interesting one, I knew it was going to be a wreck of a locomotive, I was expecting you to gut it and rebuild. But instead you gave a valuable reminder in knowing your consumer rights.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Chris, it wasn’t as intended but perhaps with a better outcome. Regards, Charlie

[@johnedwards8194]

Thanks Charlie, Again a good video with an important message. I'm sorry to hear you have had a problem with someone wanting your address. That must be a lesson for us all who are online, as for second-hand goods so many would like to cheat us and to find or get someone honest is hard to come by online.

[@stevemawer848]

There are more honest than dishonest people out there, though. We usually only get to hear about the dishonest ones.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I agree, John, it’s shocking. Regards, Charlie

[@GDGRailway47712]

I try to be careful, filming in the garden, not to catch views of what is around as it would pinpoint my location. With expensive models about, I feel I'd be a target for burglary.

[@kriso1891]

I have been lucky with my second hand (opps I mean preowned) purchases.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

It can be a dicey game Kriso.

[@jdenm8]

Something I got from Hattons that worked out in my favour: a Lima Class 40, 40126- the one unfortunately involved in The Great Train Robbery. Was listed by Hattons as "Body loose from chassis - Buffer and coupling hook missing - Replacement box" at a sizeable discount compared to the other Lima Class 40s listed at the same time. I think it was like 10 pounds cheaper. Don't care about the box (or the buffer really) and I have replacement coupling hooks. Bought it because I had an inkling I knew why the body was loose. Some weeks later, it arrived here in Australia. I immediately tested my hypothesis. I flipped the body around and put it down on the chassis. It immediately snapped firmly and correctly into place. Lima's comprehensive glazing and large motors mean that a hole has to be cut into the glazing so the motor fits, so the body only fits one way. Whoever sold it to Hattons or entered it into their system didn't try it the other way. As for duds from Hattons, I ordered a box set compromising coaches from a base and expansion set, an empty box for the base set, and a plastic case for the whole lot that came with the expansion set. It gets here to Australia, and it's just the empty box for the base set. No coaches, no plastic case. A couple emails back and forth from Hattons and they organised a refund for the box set and a partial refund on the shipping, which I wasn't expecting. Ended up working in my favour, I found a very similar set in Japan for half the price. In this case, the 'Sold as Seen' text gives away that this was something that had something seriously wrong with it. I tend to steer clear of those. I also see plenty of people here poo-pooing buying non-runners. Generally they're all that's available and sometimes at a considerable discount. I think I've bought over a dozen from Hattons and got every single one running again, generally with only a service.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I must confess J8, I think you have been rather fortunate. Regards, Charlie

[@jimkeenan7211]

Charlie you are the ultimate guru on almost every aspect of modelling. However one thing I don’t understand (based on your videos) is that your layout does not have a complete loop. To me this is an absolute necessity in terms of realism and enjoyment. However on your layout the trains have to go up or down the helixes (prototypical- I think not) and disappear underground for a part of the journey. From what I have seen on your videos you have plenty of space, so I would like to ask you, with the greatest of respect, why you have not designed the kind of layout favoured by the majority of modellers?

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great question Jim. I used to have a continuous runner but access inside was a “duck under”. That had a serious impact on my knees. Guys with attic layouts don’t have this issue as their loft access comes up in the middle. However, the same trains going by, is by no means realistic. Regards Charlie

[@MervynPartin]

I am shocked by this. I have always thought Hatton's would have examined and tested it before sale (my son has actually bought items from them for my model railway). I am not a trader, but I have sold a fair number of items- models and machinery that I no longer needed. Every item was checked thoroughly before putting on eBay with as full a description as possible. I have only ever had one incident, where Parcelforce managed to defeat all the packaging to smash an item during delivery. I refunded the purchaser immediately. Commercial traders get repeat orders when there is customer satisfaction, but this sort of incident can do a lot of harm. I hope that Hatton's do the right thing here.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comment, Mervyn. I just hope that this video encourages Hattons to pay more attention. Regards, Charlie

[@user-bk6qo5mu2o]

nice bonus video Charlie not long to wait for your next one .shame about the loco but not as described so had to be returned

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Jeffrey, so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards, Charlie

[@stevegoodhand8104]

Yet again your video highlights what a lot of other modellers think, sold as seen….no no, shame incidents like this make online purchases risky, if not brand new, I want to see it before parting with any cash. Well done Charlie and Tim.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Steve, I’m so pleased to have your support. Regards, Charlie

[@stevegoodhand8104]

Thanks Charlie, Steve not Tim I think

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Oops. Corrected. Regards Charlie

[@trainmanbob]

Oh dear!!! What a minefield. At the end of the day this would make me worried about buying from some shops. I have been very lucky with my purchases over many years and indeed have had some exceptional bargains. Oddly enough Charlie, only a couple of weeks ago I received from a well known shop a loco which when first run emitted a huge cloud of smoke. The vendor requested it be returned stating it ran fine when they tested it, where have we all heard that before? One of the brass contacts on the commutator had dislodged itself and wedged itself on the brush and jammed the motor. In the end I repaired it myself and it was still an excellent buy. However the price indicated something was amiss. Providing the vendor refunds the full amount I am happy. However, they never do as I have yet to find a vendor, including Amazon and Ebay, who refund postage on returned goods. I'll bet we all have heard or know of horror stories o this topic. Cheers, Bob

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, Bob, we live in a buyer, beware world. Regards, Charlie

[@bazza3643]

Hi Charlie, I would like to add that I have purchased many second hand items from Hatton’s, and I have always found them to be honest declaring if there is any fault with the item before I purchased it. Regards Barry🇳🇿

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I think you’re rather fortunate Barry, I certainly won’t be buying any used locos. Coaches etc are another matter, with less risk. Regards, Charlie

[@Planestrains-d5e]

Actually… yes, from the same retailer though not a loco but a pair of coaches that I bought second hand for my young son. Both BR crimson and cream - one a Hornby 6 axle Hawksworth Restaurant car, and sold as such, that when it arrived had only four axles… And the second an old Mainline composite coach that had wheels of different diameters fitted into each bogie - the leading wheels at each end a smaller diameter than the axles toward the centre. Again, not mentioned in the description. Someone needs to pay a bit more attention over there!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’ve been assured by their CEO that these oversights, should no longer be happening. Regards, Charlie

[@nigelericogden3200]

Hi Charlie, just thought to relate to you the following tale … I was watching an American KZbinr recently, he’d bought an O guage diesel locomotive at an exhibition, one that he had always wanted. The stand/dealer he bought it from seemed at face value to be reputable, but on getting the loco home he found that most of the internals had been removed, all of the expensive electronic components. So basically he given these people, who turned out to be not at all reputable, $300 or so dollars for an empty locomotive. Seems to be a thing. But in yours and Tim’s case at least we know that Hattons were acting in good faith, and that the good people there will be mortified to see this. All the best, Nigel

[@prc789]

I was thinking of that exact video and the Lionel loco that was just an expensive body shell

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

This is clearly a transatlantic issue. Regards, Charlie

[@graham33freeland59]

I wonder if you didn't have a KZbin channel Charlie that Hattons would have taken it back with a full refund. I must admit I've never had any problems with Hattons and hopefully that continues..btw excellent video..

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m pretty sure they would’ve offered a refund to anyone Graham. Admitting their error was almost instant. Regards, Charlie.

[@michaelmiller641]

I think the real rogue here is the person who sold the loco to hattons knowing that he'd ripped the guts out of it, they need to pursue him!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Perhaps Michael, but it could be from a deceased estate. Regards, Charlie

[@michaelmiller641]

@@ChadwickModelRailway that's true, Charlie