Hazbin Hotel'S Biggest Flaws

[@Ididitlikethis2079]

Something I noticed about Hazbin Hotel. On the one hand, you can be sent to hell for incredibly minor crimes such as swearing and littering. On the other hand, everyone in Hell seems to be an unrepentant psychopath who murder and steal with no remorse. This begs the question, did the sinners become violent murders and psychopaths *because* they were sent to hell? Or were they *already* violent monsters before they arrived in hell? Although Hazbin Hotel seems to imply the latter is true.

[@Ramsey276one]

Well, When In HELL...

[@cablefeed3738]

if you did enough to end up in hell even if it was minor you're now around people who did major bad things who are going to continue to do them to you.

[@billcipher8645]

Idk, cannibal town seems pretty chill. Yes, they are cannibals, but they don't have to be murderers and as much as you hate it there are also some real-life examples of consentual cannibalism (like someone eating their own foot with friends after amputation). Out of all background characters we saw, they ar eprobably the most likely to redeem themselves, just a small dietary change and it's done

[@isacc8324]

has purgatory been confirmed to not exist?

[@DeathKitta]

I mean. In place like Hell you accomodate. Or become a forever victim.

[@Lawlaliet]

There's also a plohotile of how didn't Vaggie know that angel weapons can harm Exterminators. Specially since she got her wings and eye removed by Lutes sword.

[@DororoXPenana]

I personally think it would have been cool if Vaggie knew all along about the weapons especially since she was scarred by one. SHE should have been the one who went all the way and killed an angel. Just have a scene of her protecting Charlie and even the truth coming out right then and there about her being a previous angel herself. Definitely the stakes would be higher cause she's a main part of the group, her past, and someone she loves almost died and she would do whatever it took to protect her but even Charlie could be a little terrified at how ruthless she could be since she isn't a fan of others being killed.

[@the_second_channel]

I think what happened was that she thought by sparing the cannibal child, she had already fallen, thus she wasnt a true angel anymore and thus could be hurt. But it shouldve been made clear in the show

[@aquashuriken1634]

She only had her eye stabbed by the sword, her wings were pulled out by Lute without any weapons. But that does make me question how Vaggie didn't know angels can hurt other angels, since she doesn't know how to kill one before Camilla teaches her.

[@rigboy1234]

It could've been fixed If Carmilla asked "Did you know Sinners could hurt Angels?" Done.

[@vashythewabbit8288]

The fact that there were Angel weapons in the Hell black market really breaks the entire plot of the story for me. Like for 10,000 years it was said no one could ever kill a Angel and yet how did they even got their hands on even one of those weapons yet alone enough to supply an entire army.

[@Gruntvc]

It turns out the Exterminator Angels were just plain dumb and got lucky the sinners were too terrified or dumb to fight back until the plot demanded it. Based on what we saw slaying angels? I think even humans could take them out.

[@SweetOrangeGirl]

Wasn’t it explained by Viv that the angels would leave the angelic weapons inside of sinners?

[@vashythewabbit8288]

@@SweetOrangeGirl if she did, then she contradicted herself cause none of the Angels do that in the final episode

[@SweetOrangeGirl]

@@vashythewabbit8288 You do have a point there.

[@patrickcarter2829]

​@@SweetOrangeGirl so, in one of her livestreams, Vivzie did mention that the Exterminators occasionally leave their weapons in the victim's corpse once the cleanse concludes (as seen in the pilot). I would guess it's carelessness and having a surplus of replacements? Still, yeah, the fact that no desperate Sinner has tried this since the dawn of the Exterminations reeks of plot convenience.

[@Crawver]

The biggest thing I wish they did with Adam, is they toned down the overt douchebaggery, and dialled up his judgemental attitude even more. You could still have him be a complete ass, but give him the veneer that he believed he was actually holy. When he was killed, his breakdown felt like that should have been when that side of him really came out. I thought it was a good moment. But it was almost the same as how he was initially. Honestly I didn't hate him as a character, the bones of a great one were there. But I don't think he's going to be especially fondly remembered either.

[@TheUnseenPath]

Yeah, of course they turned him into a frat boy douche bag because God forbid we make Eve the bad guy because he know 2024 and feminism and all

[@capt.artemislivius7601]

OR, maybe make us sympathize with why he hates Hellions so much. He was created to rule the Earth as the First Man, yeah he was "sexist" but what Lucifer did was just make things worse. So you can imagine how mad that would make him... But no, instead we get a douchebag fratboy rather than a multilayered character.

[@marley7868]

@@capt.artemislivius7601 it's also kind of weird too cause isn't he rather unpopular in heaven I remember my friends saying it's weird cause if he's unpopular doesn't that mean he's cooler for acting like that? cause he actually has only his confidence to back it up this is third hand mind you so tell me if I'm wrong

[@KnTenshi2]

I just realized, one other thing they could have done was have his hatred of humans in Hell stem from his hatred of Cain. Ya' know, his son who murdered his other son (Abel) over the fact that God liked Abel's sacrifice (the prize sheep of his flock) over Cain's (vegetables - not his best, prize vegetables, just whatever he happened to gather). Being the father of both the first murderer and murder victim can kind of twist one's sense of "does someone deserve redemption?".

[@tylernail-gk7xe]

He should’ve been a little more mature, being 930 years old

[@extinctionanimation]

I think even people who like the show (like me lol) agree that the pacing is the biggest problem. I think very few people are going to deny that. Agree with what you said

[@Mangakamen]

I dunno, I've had a few people gun after me for it

[@extinctionanimation]

@@Mangakamen Yeah, I suppose you are going to have those people who just god defend the show from any sort of criticism. Twitter gonna Twitter. I hope most people will hear you out

[@kevinreilly4611]

​@@Mangakamen You're being critical of a show that has one of the most toxic fanbase since Steven Universe. Even giving it a 9 out of 10 could get hate sent your way.

[@toyingmadness9731]

@@Mangakamenhey, I’m kinda confused, did you like the show or..? I was just kind of confused inside the video. Did you completely hate it or recognize its flaws and like it?

[@Unapologeticweeb]

pacing was indeed an issue but i still enjoyed the show for what it is mostly because of the musical aspect and i love almost all the songs and the story itself and my boy alistor but yes pacing is an issue that i hope get resolved in season 2 and given the overall positive rating that's likely i think

[@thomasatyeo1765]

There's a theory out there that season 2 was originally supposed to be a continuation of season 1, increasing the number of episodes from 8 to 16, but A24 or Amazon decided to chop it up into two seasons of 8 episodes.

[@extinctionanimation]

Yeah they probably didn't know if the show was going to be successful, so they didn't want to risk more than 8 eps. Hopefully they get more in season 2

[@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS]

@@extinctionanimation Like 12

[@kakaaw228]

But weren't episodes already done around 5th month last year? I remember Vivziepop saying they finished 1st season before being on Amazon Prime..

[@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS]

@@kakaaw228 It was supposed to come out last summer but there was a delay. They've completed voice work for Season 2 I believe.

[@VoidzClown]

@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS oh yeah

[@slightlyistorical1776]

One thing I don't really see anyone else is a major aspect that is missing in a show about improving oneself. Hazbin Hotel makes a major focus on redemption, but redemption alone cannot be what saves a sinner. There's no *repentance.* From all the characters except for Charlie and Vaggie, there's no backstory as to why they ended up in Hell, and given how literally every single soul there murders, rapes, abuse substances, and cannibalize others without a second thought I'll just assume that there was no mistaking them for very, very bad people who deserved damnation. Redemption is admirable and ought to be a goal, but total redemption cannot be achieved without repentance, to express true guilt for their past actions, how it affected others, and a genuine aspiration to never do those sins again and to make amends with those they had wronged. In Angel Dust's case, his cannon lore was that he was a mobster who died in 1947 who engaged in all sorts of heinous and reprehensible actions that caused him to be sent to Hell, and his sister Molly was supposed to join him there but she ended up in Heaven from what I think was a change to her lore. You would never know this from what's so far been showed in the series, because he never talks about it and it is never brought up, probably an intentional move to make the audience feel sympathy for him after the scene where he was abused by Valentino. And while the goal of the Hotel is to bring sinners to Heaven, it never addresses the question as to *_WHY_* they are in Hell in the first place. This Steven Universe mentality of doing good deeds alone while refusing to acknowledge your past sins will get you into Heaven is ridiculous, it just treats the symptoms and not the cancer itself. On top of this, it doesn't help that all this exists in a world without Jesus Christ, who literally went into Hell after His crucifixion to pull all the righteous sinners out and bring them to Heaven since all their sins have been forgiven.

[@MewGirlZ]

I want to know where the concept of Jesus going to Hell between his death and resurrection is from. I've never heard that before. Is that a different account of the righteous souls in Limbo who were waiting for the gates of Heaven to be opened? (Genuine question, because there are so many different takes concerning the various Christian belief systems.)

[@co-ramp632]

⁠@@MewGirlZI think in this case it’s an interpretation. In the Apostles’ Creed, which was a very early Christian statement of belief, it is stated that Jesus “descended into hell” and three days later rose from the dead. I’m not entirely sure where this statement came from or what exactly happened with it, but that’s where this comes from. In the Nicene Creed, which came later, that line was removed, I suppose from confusion on its proper interpretation. In the question of what did Jesus really do, there’s not exactly a singular decided upon conclusion. We know he died, taking on the full weight of all of humanity’s sins past, present, and future; opened the gates to heaven; and rose from the dead three days after his death. Did he descend into hell to collect the righteous in wait? Possibly. Did he go to purgatory to collect those souls? Equally likely. it even may be that Jesus retroactively opened the gates of heaven, such that by his action the gates were opened in the beginning of time. It may sound a little confusing, but Jesus is still God and thus beyond time, making more than well within the range of his power. I may have veered a little off topic but I hope this helps, even if only a little

[@MewGirlZ]

@@co-ramp632 I was more so looking for a response like, "This is what (Christian denomination) believes." The way I learned it as a Catholic was that "He descended into Hell" didn't refer to the place where one is eternally separated from God, but rather Limbo where the souls of the just went while waiting (not suffering) for Heaven to be opened to them (which of course Christ did after he had died paying the price for Adam's original sin). I'm very curious to know what other denominations learned and how it differed from the Catechism. I appreciate your conversation though! A level headed and thoughtful response on the subject I presented is way more than I excpected to get in this comment section so it was a pleasant read. On a somewhat related note, I think the use of the word "Hell" in the Apostles Creed is a result of centuries of translations and whether it's interpreted literally or as some form of localization is where the differences of belief start to crop up.

[@co-ramp632]

@@MewGirlZ I see. Sadly, I can’t offer what you’re looking for as I’m Catholic myself. I agree it would be interesting to hear the differing beliefs of other denominations. And thank you as well for being respectful and open to conversation. It is indeed a rare sight at times with conversations based on religious topics.

[@MewGirlZ]

@BJJohnson98 Cool! Thank you for adding to the conversation. Little tidbits like that are exactly what I was looking for!

[@silverseer573]

I HATED how Adam was handled. The show is so rushed, it fails to give the main driving force behind the exterminations any motivation aside from him being just being a sadist. That's really it. He's a sadist. He could've had PLENTY of reasons. Maybe there truly were plans of an uprising in Hell. Maybe Eve eating the forbidden fruit and him not left him alone in Eden for eons and he went bonkers with hate for Lucifer and Lilith. Maybe with Eve and Cain and so many others stuck in Hell, he also tried to get some redeemed, but it didn't work, so now he's just mercy-killing them. Maybe Eve, stuck in Hell, contacted him, railing against how Lilith was so happy down there, and her and Adam conspired to ruin Lilith's and Lucifer's happiness for keeping them apart. But no. He was a toxic male, that was motivation enough, and for this, more than the mass-murder, he had to die.

[@Gruntvc]

The way he died was cringe. He wasn't even attacking at that point. A sinner straight up murders him. There goes the entire point of this show down the toilet. Unless he's not dead, but I dunno...

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Exactly, and not only his death, everything beforehand is a joke and humiliation of who he is, and they MAKE. IT. A. DISNEY.MUSICAL! Seriously, what is the OBSESION with having a musical EACH episode? It syphpnes resources and derrail literally practice just to make a numerical song.

[@terronprice2336]

Maybe he will come back next season as a sinner and have to be in the hotel?

[@itzfroggi22]

​@@ericquiabazza2608Viv is a sucker for musicals like REALLY a big fan of it if you saw her work from before. It's pretty much not a good excuse to overuse them every episode.

[@arqueiroXD]

And when a musical would fit a lot. (The final battle). They didn't used it...hell she made the main villain weapon be a guitar. AND HOW THE HELL THE FINAL BATTLE IS NOT THE MUSICAL.@@itzfroggi22

[@riotkitty]

Its biggest problem is that it’s rushed af. Hazbin Hotel should’ve taken its sweet time with its premise, episodes focusing on the sinners and their problems or on establishing the hotel to work towards the meeting with the angels while having another plot going on in the background till everything hits the fan.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Series should've taken a note from The Last Airbender that when you have a massive world with a lot of lore behind it, you need fairly long season to flesh it and the characters out naturally.

[@orbboom6119]

​@@thefanwithoutaface8105probably they didnt have an option, amazon gave them an 8 episodes season and thats it

[@ravenr0cks]

Not everything is black and white. There's probably several reasons and limitations that we simply don't know about

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

@@ravenr0cks Well the show does a crappy time showing them.

[@i.cs.z]

​@@ravenr0cksAnd none of thoes change the simple fact that the finished product has big problems. Yeah, there are probably behind the sceen problems we don't know abouth, but none of thoes excuse lack of quality. Thoes unknown limitations don't make the show magically better.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Also probably the biggest problem I have is the show ignores a glaring issue with the concept of Redemption, namely making the Sinners Confront their past actions. Angel for example seemingly is only called out for his drug use and status as a porn star, but his canon backstory is he was a mobster in New York from the 20s to the 40s meaning he most certainly engaged in things like arson, extortion, corruption and murder. Getting redeemed after doing that should require more than simply some community service and passing on drugs. Charlie acts like Sinners are just misunderstood people and Heaven is wrong to punish them, but every Sinner we've ever met is a blood hungry psycho who'd start murdering anyone in Heaven or Earth, thus punishing them makes sense from a practical perspective.

[@dDoodle788]

I don't know, is that backstory for angel still canon though?

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

@@dDoodle788 Considering he speaks with a New York Accent and specifically fights using Tommy Guns, pretty sure it's canon.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@dr.curtisconnors3914 I still feel that disconnect since we see Charlie interact with Sinners and seeing how bad they are - but it's like Charlie never considered 'why' Sinners end up in Hell in the first place.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@sandersGG Except Angel's "redemption" does not at all address the fact that he's killed alot of people from his mortal life on Earth. It's more about making him feel happy with himself and getting over his coping mechanisms. That's what I'm on about, redemption isn't just about becoming happier with yourself, it's acknowledging the wrong you've done to others too. Angel is in Hell because he's a murderer. Making him feel good does not undo the lives he took.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

@@PlanetZoidstar Exactly, Charlie spends so much time ask "How do you get in Heaven" she never asks the obvious question, "WHy are you in Hell?"

[@Jane-ow7sr]

I think adam is a completely wasted character. He shouldve been saved for later in the show while having lute or another angel be the antagonist. I know viv cant think of this herself but imagine how awesome it'd be to see the stand off between the crew and Lucifer versus Adam the man who lost his paradise, both his wives, father of all mankind forced to watch as his children commit the most horrific acts of humanity while he (presumably) spent the rest of his mortal life atoning for what he has allowed to be done... And to top it all of he's being denied his fatherly role of punishing sinners aka his children for their crimes against his other children. Its reasonable why he's pissed that Charlie is trying to claim them as her family when she has zero connection to them.

[@Jane-ow7sr]

@@bluespirit5112 exactly. Same with helluva boss. They just jump so quick into drama rather than spending the first season or half building on the concept they originally pitched with. Very annoying

[@Jane-ow7sr]

@@bluespirit5112 I dont know why they didn't just make Stolas a bisexual y'know rather than a repressed gay. Yeah Stella's younger portrait shows her as crazy but growing up she could have been confident and they loved each other before the slow fall. The childhood best friend thing was very lazy, especially since they probably didn't see each other again after he stole everything. They could've had the divorce already ongoing before Blitz got the contract to hook up with each other in Stolas' need for some escapism.

[@Jane-ow7sr]

@@bluespirit5112 which makes no sense. You're still trying to rehab sinners, but how are you going to do that if heaven is corrupt and Hell will soon be overpopulated again. If you think the Ring was overpopulated now it must've been nuts back before they closed off the over rings for the sinners.

[@Jane-ow7sr]

@@bluespirit5112 that's a good idea. Maybe just have one whole year of permanent death and the factions can kill each other rather than the exterminations. It would also give Carmillas weapon business some actual substance, because why sell guns if sinners don't die?

[@NightmareRex6]

for really dark twist nifty should cut out his voicebox and adams apple becusae even thugh asshole eveyroen liked his singign and rocking.

[@ryancarson6962]

18:18 Something I'd like to add here is that Vaggie needed Carmilla to tell her the information that Exorcists are vulnerable to their own weapons… even though Vaggie's backstory as an Exorcist has her eye gouged out by Lute's Exorcist Blade, meaning that she herself should *already know* this information. I noticed that plot hole myself, so Viv really needs to refine her scripts because if I can figure out that plot inconsistency, others can as well.

[@Darkvortexwolf]

The only thing I can think of that would make her not think so is that Angels are probably able to hurt each other without the angelic weapons. See her ripping of Vaggie's wings.

[@Darkvortexwolf]

Sadlty, though, that's pure speculation

[@kakaaw228]

Another thing to add, Sir Snake died to Holy Power(which is basically getting killed by angelic weapon) and was sent to Heaven.

[@JDD-fu4wg]

The fact that angels can be killed by their own weapon is a boring reveal. When it was reveled that Camilla killed the angels to protect her daughters, I thought to myself “hey that's the secret, compassion for others”. That's why sinners couldn't kill angels all this time. I must say I was disappointed

[@bluespidergaming7719]

not really as sure her eye was gouged out but her wings were also torn off using lutes hands so it could have just been you know after being disowned by the exorcists she could have felt heaven abandoned her

[@joebob9379]

I think that Adam should have been a later villain. With the V’s, and other overlords should be have been the villains of early seasons.

[@bernkastel7438]

So true. By season 1 we’re already fighting an Angel commander that was only stopped by Lucifer, what the fuck are the overlords gonna do to the cast 😂 What’s gonna be the main villain of Season 3? God?

[@christopherauzenne5023]

agreed, infact from the online pilot, I thought the angels & heaven in general would have been more of a looming presence/something that hangs over the heads of everyone & wouldn't truly be introduced until much later (like ozai from avatar or how one piece sets up villains to be paid of much later). have the first season be main focus on the problems/villains of hell with only still images & silhouettes of the angels and their attacks. introducing the angels, adam, and heaven itself from the start makes their presence feel less special and the challenge less insurmountable (in they way you want certain challenges to be so the pay off is more satisfying) and the same goes for showing sir pentious in heaven by season ones end because "well I guess they can be redeemed, guess this stories pretty much over"

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Probably the show seems to want to make heaven evil and hypocritical while hell is the victim

[@Rey_Palpatine]

I feel like a lot of the Heaven stuff and the big demons vs angels showdown should've been saved for the second season. I was surprised when it first became clear that all of that stuff was going to be happening in the first season. As it stands, I feel like the big "can demons be redeemed" issue might've been answered/solved a little too quickly, idk. First season could've been more about drama amongst the sinners and their struggles, with overlords scheming and causing problems (the Charlie/Lucifer/Lilith situation could get developed alongside that and continue into the second season). Then at the end of season 1, after some progress has been made with the hotel, there could be a brutal reveal where the angels reject Charlie's idea and double down on the exterminations

[@SilverGuy-v2]

​@bernkastel7438 don't forget that Daddy Lucifer is also now a part of the Hotel so unless Lucifer dips because he won't tell you (He was late to the final battle, why? Don't worry about it). Or the Vs turn out to be able to solo Lucifer. Or he just pulls a Goku thinking that Charlie and the gang can take care of them and doesn't do anything.

[@cesar6447]

the whole redemption thing is incredibly flawed, like, theres murderers, rapists, molesters there in hell, why are you trying to redeem them? they arent even confronted for their actions, what if angel met some of his victims when he was alive... that would be a good way to present the conflict, why angel deserves redemption? Also do they want to redeem themselves, bc they are really sorry of what they did, or bc they want to get out of hell? is very selfish to say sorry just to get rewarded, and not any reward, but the eternal peace, imagine if angel gets redeem before his victims, would be that fair?

[@christopherauzenne5023]

yeah that's a problem I have been having with how this serious was turning out, like you can make solid arguments against charlie's idea and that could make for really great in-universe discussion between charlie and opposing perspectives but the show just doesn't want to explore that and rather keep it simple, cookie cutter protagonist is right antagonist is wrong without exploring the greys/complication that could make for great storytelling

[@paradoxtatorstudios9681]

yeah that made little sense to me. i couldn't help but think charlie was naive for thinking murderers, serial killers, wh*res, rapists and worse can be redeemed; they even laugh in her face about it how redemption is stupid and impossible to do, that should be her clue right there. i know its supposed to be the "underdog protagonist has a crazy dream no one believes in but it's gonna work because protagonist" trope but it doesn't work for me because it's convoluted. also, i thought hell and heaven are options that once you're in one, you can't go back? i dunno lmao but that part also just doesn't make sense conceptually, thought that was what purgatory was for.

[@Ch50304]

Exactly and she doesn't even have a concrete plan, she just kind of goes with whatever. And how will she tell if someone is redeemed, what if that person is faking to destroy heaven, would she be held responsible?

[@ricky.t.1658]

Don't force your morals on the show kiddo

[@ciarangrainger2465]

The problem with Vivienne’s series (both of them) is that the feel like the final season in a show with none of the episodes that get us to really care or understand our main cast. Imagine if they started Amphibia on Season 2 or Gravity Falls did Weirdmaggedon 6 episodes in. It’s like, it’s clear that Vivienne has a vision for her series but she doesn’t allow for normal episodes that get us to know our cast before the heavy stuff, or at least give us episodes that actually take advantage of your premise before going off in a different direction.

[@MrSpartan993]

And it never changes either. It’s been like this for actual years of progress between 2 shows now. I stopped watching because of it.

[@ricky.t.1658]

I dissagree, in fact, the plot going straigh to the point without any filler is great bc It simply makes the show much eassier to watch, you actually get to care about the plot and characters and its even revolutionary in its way, the problem here is not the structure, but the whole pacing thing that was probably what truly upsets you

[@alexbryda]

another error, Rosie once she reunited with ALASTOR said "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN" even though its been 6months timeline since he returned in episode 1, and they were in a meeting together in episode 2, she should of said "glad to finally catch up after your return" its literally that simple writing, theres so much stuff like that pacing wise

[@icarue993]

Maybe instead of meeting with Mr Spider Scary guy, he meets with Rosie. I do feel Hazbin specifically lacked restraint in not putting characters. As much as Vox is liked, he brought nothing to season 1, yet got 2 songs. Velvet got 1 song and wasn't relevant at all. Mimzy got a chunk of a song and so on so forth. Carmilla got THREE songs, THREE!!! (Husker and Sr Pentious got 1, Angel and Alistor got 2, she got tied with Vaggie with 3. Only other character with more songs is Charlie).

[@alexbryda]

@@icarue993 totally agree 🙌 i absolutely love the show ❤️ i just feel like simple things could of been fixed by just reviewing their writing 😢

[@icarue993]

​@@alexbryda I think they started production and Amazon was like: Hey, your other show is doing really good. Here, have another season. Vox's sound at the end of his first song was inspired by the whole studio doing the same sound. (a long and defeated F*ck)

[@ZeppeliGaming]

ok this is just nitpicking or the pacing made you not aware of this but it's been months since that meeting and they probably talked off screen after that meeting. Honestly I feel like the pacing is the biggest issue of this show.

[@alexbryda]

@@ZeppeliGaming she talked to him as if they haven't seen eachother since his 7 year disappearance even though they've been in the same shot multiple times, even if they talked off screen its still a writing error, alls she had to say was something like "hey good to see you since you left" not "where have you been for the past 7 years" since they've seen echother multiple times

[@boogerbeans]

Why Adam didnt blast away Alistor like he did to Sir Pentious is crazy to me .

[@billcipher8645]

That's just typical shows' plot armour. Characters are extremely powerful ONLY within the limits of what the plot demands. Disappointing

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Because “haha, Sir Pentious getting one-shoted funny” and they don’t want Alistor to look too bad.

[@leventenagy1488]

Cuz Alastor was someone he could handle 1v1, the Death Ray was a real threat

[@Logamer-tn6db]

​@@billcipher8645 It's not plot armor? Adam does the exterminations for fun. His fight with Alastor immediately ended when he got sick of Al's shit.

[@charismaticRogue]

@@Logamer-tn6db both can be true lol

[@Anonymice]

Vivzie forgets that the Angels are doing pretty decent work. Most of hell is filled with psychopaths who slaughter and maim without a second thought so it's not like they're unjustified.

[@willieboi.]

That's what I was thinking. Hell is just filled with "mean but misunderstood" characters. I think it's a bit weird that Charlie doesn't seem to aknowledge that some of her people actually deserve being down there.. at least from what I've seen. Christ, a slug looking sinner came up to her and told her to touch his parts in the first episode. This guy might have been a mol3ster when he was alive or something. I would like seeing a direction where Charlie realizes that some sinners simply can't be redeemed, that some are actually evil to the core and nearly beyond help.. but you never know with this show :/ And another gripe I have is how Valentino is protrayed to be a monster yet I can't feel an ounce of fear for him since he's treated like any other playful character dancing and cussing all over the place

[@stevenbyford5615]

Honestly, every time I hear people saying how cruel or unjust the Extermination is, I'm reminded of the Swedish woman who delayed a flight because one of the passengers was being deported back to the Middle East, I think Afghanistan. Turns out, he was being deported because he was a rapist, so, a real big-brain moment there.

[@artistanthony1007]

Most of, you can get into Hell for the smallest things, Sinners are just humans that make sin, that doesnt mean they're all like that.

[@SweetOrangeGirl]

@@willieboi.I’d like to see her try to redeem Hitler. That TOTALLY won’t go down badly.

[@DeathKitta]

The problem wasn't that Hell exists. The problem was that exterminations are happening that double kill souls.

[@mo7311]

I'm SO SO tired of "heaven/angels are hypocrits and they don't really care and are bad 🤯🤯🤯" it was already overdone and i didn't even watch hazben after the trailer bc of the way it felt would go

[@billcipher8645]

Well, it's good it's not as black and white. The majority of angels are good, Emily is good, Sera seems more misguided than bad. I think it's disingenious to say

[@marley7868]

yeah it's actually pretty simple too read christian lore an musings on angels and there basically robots there built for a purpose with specific ideas in mind for instance what do you think a minor angels response to petty theft is compared a to a principality (who among other things watch over nations) there not evil there objectively good but good has many definitions and I was made with one in mind

[@Gruntvc]

Same, it has become over done. Too bad most "Christian" entertainment isn't good.

[@ДюсековИльяс]

​@bluespirit5112 bruh.....the original pilot exicitly tells that it is in fact fucking angrls and heaven lol

[@pandapower3076]

She was probably a big Supernatural fan.

[@Matt-zu2lu]

I was honestly hoping for the show to be more about the idea of demons being redeemed then angels being bloodthirsty assholes.

[@TheGreatLordDIO]

I got 3 major issues with this series: 1) How they made Adam and most angels as cruel monsters. Adam being the first human who sinned, who regretted his actions and who repented is shown as a simple-minded egoistical asshole without any depth or more interesting characteristics. That doesn't seem to fit at all. I would have preffered if he was portrayed as delusional fanatic who believes that every single demon in hell is a horrible beast that needs to be killed and refusesto see the other side of them, but at the same time has some dignity to it, thinks of himself as a great savior. Just a simple prince charming parody or something like that, it would have worked much better. 2) The exterminations retcoon. In the pilot we were told that angels kill demons because hell is overpopulated, not because demons could rebel. How would that even work? There's no way for demons to get into heaven, it's not like they can arrive there or teleport there. They turned an interesting reason into a dumb one. 3) I really dislike what they did with Lucifer in this series... His core character traits are that he's a charismatic manipulator full of ego who thinks he's better than everyone. He could be redeemed but he doesn't even want to because his pride doesn't allow him to admit that he did something wrong and he refuses to repent. He's jealous of god because he wants to be like a god, so he enjoys corrupting god's creations and twisting them in his ways. But here he's a depressed but cheerful dad who dislikes hell and demons and is a misunderstood victim. That's the total contradiction of his nature. If that's how you gonna do it, make new characters instead of tarnishing originals. We got yet another loving dad with troubles, same as Blitzo and Stolas, I'm detecting a pattern in Viv's shows. Btw he likes spending time with his daughter so why did he even lose touch with her at all? In the pilot through few visuals and dialogues it seemed like he didn't care because maybe he didn't approve of Charlie's ideas (understandable because Lucifer would never wish to make peace with heaven). I'm not against a few changes here and there, showing a different perspective, parody etc. but what they did here is absolutely different and contradictory to his core elements. Alastor acts like a real Lucifer would.

[@YightLagami]

Christian views of criticisms is so weird bc they are projecting their biblical view of the character upon fictional versions

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

@@YightLagami But the issue here is that he may as well be any other character and very little would change. Which is pretty much an issue with every major Demonic character in those shows. Lucifer is so far removed from what he is shown us in everything else that it makes no sense that he is the same character. It's okay if you change a few things about pre established character, but this has absolutely nothing in common with OG Lucifer.

[@YightLagami]

@@AzraelSoulHunter not everything has to be 100% accurate. It’s basically just nitpicking minor details. Lucifer in the show wanted to give people freedom and Hell was created for that purpose in the story and Hell failed becoming a wasteland where Lucifer resides in now. It sounds like a different interpretation of the biblical story and that’s fine

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

@@YightLagami It's not a minor nitpick when entire character is pretty much backwards.

[@TheGreatLordDIO]

@@YightLagami If that's the case make your own characters, don't take established ones and completely change them. Just like they did with all their other characters, make whatever you want if they're yours. Some changes here and there are fine but there are certain character traits that are the core of the character. If the character has none of those traits than it's basically not that character. Oh and don't even try the "christians criticism is weird cause they projectin", I would've had the same issues if this was Nordic mythology or any other established ones. Lucifer is the the symbol of evil, one of the first antagonists in all of humanity's fiction. To just take him and tarnish him for your own show seems almost disrespectful to the sources because you're so full of ego you don't care and do whatever you want with the legacy characters.

[@gildanonofyabiznez6430]

A detail I hate about Vaggies plot twist is how Carmilla points out how it was obvious that she was an Angel due to the X on her right eye just like the masks the exterminators wear, but then again we know the reason shes missing an eye is because Lute ripped it out, meaning this feature of her has actually nothing to do with the fact that shes an angel. On top of that, the X thing comes off as more of a "design" feature of her demon form more than actual harm to her physical form. You know, like how Alastor has deer motifs because of the way he died and not because he got deer ears sewn onto his head while he has on hell or something. In fact if I remeber correctly, Vaggies backstory used to be that she got her eye plucked off during an attack, and this is (or well, was) the reason for that design choice. Overall it just feels like Vivzie is holding onto these old details of her characters for aesthetics sake and molding the script so that they make sense instead of changing THEM to write a coherent story. Kinda like how Angel is still canonically an ex mobster but this is never brought up as one of his sins/one of the things he would have to repent from to truly be redeemed

[@ricky.t.1658]

Girl, that was a joke, the x in her eye was a forshadowing of her being an ángel, the point of the scene is Carmilla IS breaking the fourth wall implying she recognised the feature as a Signal of her true self

[@gildanonofyabiznez6430]

@@ricky.t.1658 still shit

[@kingbash6466]

Still kinda annoyed that Adam is sorta just a vulgar dickhead villain instead of someone who tries to put on "Holier-than-thou" demeanor to the point where he would outwardly shame people for swearing and violence, but as his anger gets the better of him, he cusses and kills way more than any other character we've seen so far.

[@LunaryonSunborn]

I mean, as the first man Adam is literally an Alpha Male

[@The_Practical_Daydreamer]

Is Adam any different from Blitzø? Crass, sexual, proficient killers? Yet, we are supposed to sympathize with the imp, yet hate the first man because the demon has trauma? Adam lost everything, his two wives and his innocence because of Lucifer's manipulation.

[@lepulsar21]

@@The_Practical_Daydreamer I think it was a matter of perspective

[@The_Practical_Daydreamer]

@@lepulsar21 Could you explain?

[@lepulsar21]

@@The_Practical_Daydreamer Sure, we see Hazbin H. from Charlie's prespective and from her PoV we see that Adam (the antagonist) is against the hotel and we see him as bad, but in Helluva B. we see it from Blitz's perspective and the shows tries to make us sympathize with him, kinda like him trying to think he isn't as bad as he is. You could use Blitz's sister, Barb, as another PoV since she doesn't wanna be with Blitz cuz he is an ahole.

[@HaughtyToast]

I prefer Nux's take on Adam and that the idea behind the show is that the characters are judged based on how they were in life and everything past that isn't taken into account which let Adam slowly slip into his current behavior after thousands of years without any consequences. I think, if anything, this will probably be talked about more in season 2 now that the seraphim know souls can be redeemed. Adam is essentially the other side of Sir Pentious' coin whether he is permanently dead or not.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Better yet from What we saw it was eve , Lilith and a non human make they fucked everything up Adam was honestly an innocent bystander in their drama he wasn’t really that bad otherwise sera nor lute would be able to tolerate him

[@A_Hylian_Not_An_Elf]

@@wolfsbanealphas617I do wish they did some things differently, but Adam is still my favorite.

[@Mangakamen]

Problem with Nux's take - We don't know jack about Adam's life.

[@A_Hylian_Not_An_Elf]

@@Mangakamen I think the fact Sir Pentious never showed his human life or how he even got somewhat powerful was a flaw as well.

[@HaughtyToast]

@@Mangakamen Oh I'm aware. But it's a reasonable assumption to make given the themes of the show. More reasonable than other theories and things I've heard at the very least.

[@Alecations]

I simmered on it and I feel like the obvious pacing issues would have been fixed if Season 1 was just the Vees and aside from the first episode, no angels. Not only would that be less of a doomsday plot they rushed for, the Vees are an earlier boss than Adam. The Vees are just average overlord antagonists that are around the same level of strength as Alastor. Meanwhile the angels represent an existential threat to all of hell, instigated the whole premise, squashed Alastor, required not only Charlie to go all out, but for Lucifer to actually step in. But also, there's story telling opportunities they lost with them doing it first. The pilot made it seem like antagonists would have just been petty people trying to sabotage the hotel before they can prove it works. The Vees would have been perfect for that, and they would have accidentally forced redemption like they did with Sir Pentious and Angel Dust anyways. But now, it's like, why am I afraid of a random TV Sinner when Daddy Lucy is directly involved. Dawg can fart them out of existence with his sacrilegious light. I don't doubt they have a creative work around, but it didn't need to be a work around in the first place. If the Vees were just build up towards Adam, it would have worked from a power, scale, and even character level. Cuz facing the Vees would be the characters learning to fight their direct abusers, but fighting the angels is them altruistically risking their life for someone else, so even the characterization of the conflict screams Season 2 villain.

[@Trash-Emperor]

If they're limited to 8 episodes then they should make a plot that can be explored in 8 episodes.

[@SmartAlec1]

@@Trash-EmperorI feel for the creator cuz being told you can’t write the thing you worked your whole life to write, like I can see why they’d sacrifice some quality to accomplish their dream

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Honestly the argument some people have about the pacing that it's Amazon's fault for giving them only 8 episodes... No. It's not all Amazon's fault. It's also VIV'S fault as well. She did not adapt to her new situation and instead of cutting off unnecessary plot lines and ideas instead she shoved EVERYTHING into this season without any care for proper storytelling and what we are left with are ideas of what her ideas could be where conflicts are started in the same episode they are finished and the story doesn't move until a song is done. That is a BIG issue. For a good series that managed to make the most out of it's limited time look at Over The Garden Wall. A short series of 10 11 MINUTE episodes that managed to tell a cohesive, well paced great story with great characters and great music. It managed to accomplish more with less than what HH did in it's season 1. And I think that is why Episode 7 is my favorite. It reminded me the most of OTGW. To me they should have cut MOST of the plot lines and leave maybe only Angel Redemption where you can focus on it. Let this one idea be focused on and be well developed. Let it be the overarching goal of the season. Redeeming your first sinner and make it feel impactful so even if you do not have a season 2 you still have one cohesive story with beginning, middle and end that can end on an impactful and hopeful note as you explore what it means to redeem someone and feel the weight of redemption when it finally happens. Also this allows you to take more time with character interactions which are LAUGHABLY sparse and characters barely interact with one another besides the ship pairs like Vaggie and Charlie or Husk and Angel. Which makes the entire cast feel very shallow. Not to mention that we barely spend any time at the hotel and we see barely any location inside it besides the main hall so when it finally is broken we feel nothing as we barely got to know that location. And it's fixed in ONE song. That's not how you do it. Not to mention how shallow morality is in this show. It is clear who is bad, who is good and the only outlier is Sera. Honestly. It is sad to see because there is SO MUCH potential for characters to be nuanced in this setting. Where you have to question if you can root for anyone and it is up to you to decide what to think of every character. But Viv makes those characters so shallow and there is barely any nuance to anything which is disappointing. Now it is not a terrible show and I hope it gets better, but given how Viv reacts to Criticism and that Season 2 is already voiced... Yeah. I do not have high hopes. And I feel like with how much they did already they have like 2 more seasons at most worth of story to do.

[@davidmays8974]

You're being way too close-minded. Having a story and world as big as Hazbin Hotel and only 8 episodes to show it will automatically make writing and pacing incredibly difficult. Either Viv would try to give us as much material as she could, in case she wasn't given a second season. Or give us barely any material and the story stops there. You guys are acting like there's some magical solution when in reality it's incredibly difficult and there's no clear-cut solution. Viv was forced to make tough calls, but your acting like the situation was incredibly easy. Also, the Over the Garden Wall is an unfair comparison. That show was specifically created to be a short mini-series. Whereas the direction of Hazbin Hotel was unclear from the beginning. Viv and her team were assigned a limited amount of time and were forced to make tough calls.

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

@@davidmays8974 Personally if I only had one season I would probably want to develop at least one idea I have to be the best it can be rather than make half baked ideas of what my ideas are because in the long run it will only hurt the show. If she only would get one season I say she should have cut down a lot of ideas and just let fewer of them be developed into something great and for the story to be cohesive and have beginning, middle and end. Where even the first season can stand on it's own as a great product and story and not just display of ideas Viv had in her head that are loosely connected. And let me remind you. Going in the FIRST season for Hell vs Heaven war did not have to happen. She blew her shot with a lot of things too early and now they will never have the impact they could have had. Like first sinner being redeemed being done in such rushed manner. The depiction of Heaven being so underwhelming after years of staying silent about it. Deaths of Pentious or Dazzle being pretty much nothing. Carmilla and her conflict being so underdeveloped that it barely exists. The character of Zastiel that barely appears. Vees being fated to be nothing more than just secondary joke antagonists at this point because Viv immediately raised the stakes way higher than them. It is all an issue of her cramming too much into first season and leaving very little for future ones. Sorry, but that's just how it is. It is not just Amazon's fault. There is fault here on Viv as well who decided not to adapt and instead push for her way no matter how much it will damage her story in the process.

[@MrSpartan993]

Better to have ONE REALLY good and fleshed out plot point than a thousand half-baked ones. I literally can’t think of an overall beloved classic story in ANY medium that does the latter.

[@mikonyx7712]

Your failing to put yourself in her shoes SO BADLY. Think about it, she already had this huge world she built with her own hands, and she had to make a decision as to whetver ditch 90% of it for the sake of developing the main plot point, or trying to fight for that greater idea she set for the show all these years ago. Could you really condemn her for something like that? In my opinion she made the right call between these two.

[@Artician]

@@mikonyx7712 People always think they'd do better in someone else's shoes.

[@fmor2779]

I see that many try to excuse the show's flaws because "they only gave them 8 episodes". I mean, let's be honest. Even if your first season is chopped down to that, the best way to adapt it is to make it work for 8 episodes delaying some plot points and concentrate in knowing the characters and the world, instead of frantically put everything in it. The result is that the show feels rushed and underdeveloped story wise. The pacing is not the only flaw of this show, the writting need serious revision. For example, instead of revealing why the angels will come back every 6 months because of the death of an angel int the first episode make the first season about how the characters try to improve to find redemption (were we get to know them and get to care for them) and in the last episode they reveal that they will comeback sooner because of a lie like "the census indicates there are far more sinners than ever" and they reveal to the audience, but not the characters, that the real reason is the death of the angel and the "census" was just some sort of investigation to see who killed the angel but since they couldn't find the culprit they decided to go for a twice a year extermination. Hey maybe add that Charlie once witnessed a sinner being redeemed, but since she didn't knew what triggered it she keeps it a secret as to not sound like she is crazy, which would explain why she is so hung up on the idea that redemption is possible but she has no proof yet.

[@ricky.t.1658]

The problem here is that Vivzie probably has the whole show planned since the beggining and in order to maintain a good structure throug out the whole show she decided to force all the content of the first season in these 8 episodes, sacrificing the pacing of the beggining of this story. Apart from that, in my opinión, what you said was the intention for this first season and they actually succeded in that, the characters have their time to shine and you slowly fall in LOVE with them, from Ángel to Husk to Vaggie to even Niffty. I can say they succeded bc i cried with Pentious death haha. About Charlie, i think we have to understand her as a very Young and idealistic character, she knows there is good inside of everyone in contrast to her father, she wants to show the world redemption is posible BC of those around her having good inside.

[@fmor2779]

@@ricky.t.1658 We really don't have enough time to "fall in love with them" because the show might be good at coming up with this "heartwarming" moments, but they are not good at developing the story it for those moments to actually feel earned or heartwarming. (Because they squeezed possibly up to 30 episodes in 8) Why the characters stay to protect the Hotel if Charlie hasn't even been able to help them? They have ZERO reasons, because Charlie has done nothing but come up with a toxic positivity school counseling approach. The show keeps making fun of this, but suddenly when the Hotel is up to the test THE HOTEL AND CHARLIE'S APROACH SUDDENLY WORK? Charlie is a terrible, protagonist because even though she is a hopeless optimistic she has NO reason to actually be optimistic in the first place because she has got nothing on her side, she doesn't even refutes her father's opinion on sinners, all she is go is "yOu JuSt hAvE tO bElIeVe In Me dAd" (Why should he in the first place? ) And that crap about angels not knowing their steel hursts them, when we see Lute ripping Vaggies wings and eye. This show REEKS of plot wholes and plot convenience. I could make a whole presentation about why this show is terrible, but as for this comment I'll stop here.

[@angusalvarado3064]

Before watching the video my biggest issue is the pacing, which I get sorta can be explained with how little time they were given to tell the story but still is a issue. But if they knew they weren't getting a lot of time to tell the story, they should've cut down the characters being introduced.

[@dankmemes8254]

8 episodes with 30 minute run each diffenitly shafted the show in the pacing department

[@i.cs.z]

​@@dankmemes8254More like 24 minute run each. With two, 2-3.5 minute long songs, often back to back, that often don't add anything and could have just been a single line of dialogue... So yes, pacing issues.

[@capt.artemislivius7601]

Basically, we can blame Amazon all we want, but Vivziepop still shares some of the blame for not doing the best with what she was given...

[@artistanthony1007]

​​@@capt.artemislivius7601 Yes because Viv does this kind of stuff anyway, we saw how she writes for Season 2 of HB, if people dont realize that issue among all others, they really dont get it. Creators of Edgrunners showed better usage of things for telling their story, they are a big example why this is definitely also on Viv, she's a director afterall.

[@capt.artemislivius7601]

@artistanthony1007 Another example of a show that was similar to Hazbin but better written is Villainous. It had 8 episodes in the first season and fans are still waiting for season 2 cuz that's just how well-written the first one was. I really don't care about Hazbin Se.2 at this point...

[@SomebodyWhoExists23]

the show feels like broadway musical in animation form which kinda adds imo charm to the series but also adds the problem that they tell their story really fast in musical numbers rather than dialogue

[@ShadowFall334]

In my opinion Adam should have been much more "evil" in the series. With the backstory of the Elders giving him the Earth to rule over and Lucifer not only marrying his first wife Lilith, but also getting his second to eat the apple of knowledge... And after all these years, the daughter of the two people who destroyed your future and your life comes and asks you for a favor...

[@CherryHotSauce]

@@kotlolishhe made several mysoginistic jokes he named Vaggie after female anatomy. he made a big deal about paying the check “I thought you wanted equality” what are you on about

[@kotlolish]

I forgot that one. Eh some scenes didn't hang since it went too fast, deleted comment since editing it takes forever.@@CherryHotSauce

[@DrawciaGleam02]

The apple itself is kinda sus...... Why'd Eve need it to be independent? Lilith grew independent on her own without the apple seemingly. Besides that, I think the apple of knowledge was tampered with or defective. And that's why humanity has evil in their world now.

[@edwinbasa2804]

​@@CherryHotSaucehe says vaggie is the best thing that means he values vaggie much higher than others and what wrong making a woman pay the check? He said itself you want equality ok pay the check .

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Bro was honestly nice to the daughter of his ex wife considering they were still technically married when she met Lucifer

[@Yourlocalasian536]

Also Vaggie had her damn eye cut out how did she not know that angels could be harmed? Same said for lute she CUT VAGGIES EYE OUT how tf did she not know angels could be harmed and die by an angels hand??? Did I miss something???

[@Xanthos307]

She knew another angel could harm another angel, but not killed.

[@fruitloops2058]

​@@Xanthos307 So she never thought "At least it was just my eye and wings..." After that day?

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@fruitloops2058 Dont think about it too much, Viv's writing is incoherent and wont make sense.

[@herpderp5727]

Maybe she lost some brain cells too in that slash

[@Leviathan99-h8l]

Honestly as much I like the show, I can tell it couldn’t decide on whether to be a series that is compelling story or a comedy musical at the time which is probably the biggest flaw I can think of in honest opinion as I like the idea of a compelling retelling of heaven and hell yet feel like the show is holding back on a compelling story. Still better than Helluva Boss but like Helluva Boss, has got some flaws

[@icarue993]

It can be summarized in a single word: yes

[@Ch50304]

I barely laughed, and the characters were poorly done, just cute designs and good voice acting to distact.

[@CompSomAnichi]

For a show called Hazbin Hotel, it seemed to focus more on the mystery and the extermination insyead of the , hotel

[@100lovenana]

Ok, I haven't watched Hazbin Hotel, I just happened to stumble on this video. But reading the comments and seeing what happens in the show and how it's handled... it BAFFLES me that a supposed story about redemption doesn't go deeper into WHY these characters were sent to H€l (youtube will delete my comment if i write the word, which is stupid but I can't do anything about it). Apparently, many of these characters (like Angel) have done absolutely horrible things like murder during their human lives, but the plot never brings it up, instead focusing on unrelated things to justify their redemption. Shouldn't these characters be forced to contemplate how their actions ruined the lives of innocents? I'm pretty sure that's redemption 101, it doesn't need a master's degree to know that stuff.

[@essurio]

This show needed somewhere between 12 and 24 episode seasons.

[@AdamDj-ic3kr]

12 seems like a good amount,24 seems too much

[@acediamond5373]

@@AdamDj-ic3kr24 could work with shorter episodes 15-20 mins and 12 would need at least 25-30 minutes for something like Hazben to keep a good pace for all it wants to do,

[@AdamDj-ic3kr]

@@acediamond5373 ..huh, you're kinda right

[@dankmemes8254]

​@@acediamond5373vivze got shafted with that 8 episodes 30 minute run each

[@acediamond5373]

@@dankmemes8254 no doubt and I do think that's another reason why the first season was so rushed I'm hoping season 2 will get more episodes to work with, but with Viz she does not have a great track record of pace anyway so I don't fully blame Amazon for the poor pacing if I had to split it I would say 40% is viz and 60% is Amazon's fault, but overall I liked a lot of the show and loved the songs it's just the pace that makes it a bumpy ride

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Hazbin Hotel is like a lot of Modern shows like Steven Universe, Star vs., RWBY and the more recent revival of Young Justice. All shows with lots of potential that's ruined by a combination of terrible pacing and equally terrible storywriting.

[@100lovenana]

Another thing that these shows have in common (exc. for Rwby and YJ, I waven't watched those) is that they try to put too much in too little time. They started good: they were going for a more simple structure at the beginning. But after the first halves of these shows, the structure got too much weight and collapsed.

[@skittlz111]

literally all they had to do was NOT have the "heaven vs hell" plotline and the show would have instantly been like 10x better. Honestly I could've written this better. If they wanted to have Allastor have a reason to be at the hotel, why didn't they just make it so that the whole reason he's there in the first place is to mess with charlie and her idea? It's already revealed that Lillith basically owns his soul. They could've literally justified him going there and just making everything worse on him being petty about his deal with Lillith and it would've been way more interesting and made more sense. Honestly, I was really disappointed the plot wasn't charlie's idea actually succeeding in bringin in people with the intention of being "redeemed," only for Allistor to systematically go around to every new hotel resident and making a shady deal with them for their souls. Then, he would use those souls to conquer the hotel or charlie or both. I think that would've worked and also been more interesting because we could've spent S1 learning about the new patrons only to reveal at a later date that Allastor has made a deal with ALL the hotel patrons and he owns everyone's soul. Then charlie could wager her own soul - the princess of hell's soul -- against all the souls of the patrons of the hotel

[@Ch50304]

Yes, your idea is much better.

[@nappa1381]

Here's how I think the show should've paced itself ideally: Season 1: Charlie opens the hotel and starts trying (and failing) to get more people to join, ending up with only Angel Dust and Sir Pentious as they do originally. This season focuses on establishing the characters and the various antics they get into with trying to reform them. We also get the setup of the exorcist's death during the Overlord's meeting, without revealing how and why it happened just yet. The season finale ends with Charlie's meeting with Adam, which of course ends as it did originally, with the revelation of the extermination being moved up, giving us the setup for season 2. Season 2: Charlie tries to balance reforming the sinners while trying to figure out how to handle the extermination. This season focuses more on the internal politics of Hell and how the characters fit into it, particularly the overlords, possibly diving into the feud between Alastor and Vox. We also get the revelation of Carmila Carmine being the one who killed the exorcist. This season ends with Charlie's trip to Heaven, which transpires as normal. Season 3: This season would focus on Charlie prepping for the extermination and combatting Adam's forces, as well as resolving the rift between Charlie and Vaggie with the reveal of her being an "ex"-orcist. This season, of course, ends with the finale of Adam's death and the defeat of the exorcists. It's a real shame they didn't have enough episodes to really flesh out the story. I enjoyed Season 1 overall, but it could've been so much better.

[@user-tw2jt9mg4d]

I absolutely agree, it would have been so much better the way you described. Even if they couldn't get that, I think if they got at least 15 episodes it would have been miles ahead of what we got.

[@capt.artemislivius7601]

All of that +the missing grandiose-ness that this show seems to lack...

[@topcat59]

Honestly one of the biggest issues I have is the lead up to certain songs, since some of them come out of nowhere while others were built up.🐱

[@ryanolphie2166]

The way I see it, most of these issues (namely the pacing) can be boiled down to an issue that seems to be affecting most shows on streaming; the number of episodes in a season. For some reason streaming based shows aren't given as many episodes as they would have on network TV, this leads to a rushed pacing as everything needs to be crammed in with what little resources the show has. Personally I find this a rather troubling trend

[@JGD714]

Pretty sure because with network TV you basically have a guaranteed amount of commercial spots to sell that offset the potential loss from a trash season 1 compared to streaming.

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Look at Over the Garden Wall. It had 10 11 minute episodes. Essentially 5 20 minute ones and it still got across a great story. It is not JUST the streaming issue. It's Viv's issue as well. She did not have to cram so much into this season, but she did so anyway. This to me says that she needs someone who CAN tell her "NO!".

[@ryanolphie2166]

@@AzraelSoulHunter Over the Garden Wall is a bit different as it was designed to be a short mini series, where Hazbin was designed to tell a bigger story. I'm also not saying that Viv could have split the first season into two seasons, but I think she did have to make some tough calls in order for us to get what we got

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

@@ryanolphie2166 Doesn't change the fact that she DID NOT have to cram in so much because it ended up making NONE of her ideas fleshed out or even given enough time for them to set in. What we are left with is ideas of what those ideas could be because Viv decided to still push so much into this season. What you do under those circumstance is ADAPT. Not try to shove as much as you can. For instance. This season could have been JUST the redemption of first sinner, maybe Angel who over the course of this season is developed and so is his story and characters around him. And then even if there is no second season you are still left with a well done satisfying story where you have beginning, middle and end and a clear goal to works towards.

[@ryanolphie2166]

@@JGD714 Didn't think of it like that. Still, these longer seasons are why I prefer stuff that originally aired on TV over streaming exclusives

[@deejayf69]

I still think it's incredible that Vivzie got her own Amazon Prime show, and I did enjoy my time, but the pacing and world building really are awful. I enjoy it in spite of it's flaws, however I can't ignore it either. Like someone already said, it feels like a compilation rather than a fully fleshed out show that was given enough time to tell its story. I feared that this would happen given that Helluva Boss is also a flawed show. Seeing that Hazbin episode count for the first time was a big disappointment.

[@michellewilliams9895]

I appreciate your outlook on the show. I feel exactly the same way. It's complicated right? Because the flaws are unnerving BUT I'm still thrilled it exists. I love that she started making clips on KZbin and managed to produce 2 fully animated shows, one on a huge streaming platform! Idk I don't want to bash the show, I just want it to reach full potential and get better writing. Anyway improvement or not, I'll continue to watch what she puts out

[@icarue993]

As an achievement, its amazing. Judging the story on its own merits, it left somethings to be desired, but not terrible. 7-8/10

[@el_barras2622]

​​@@icarue993 For me it was a 6, if it weren't for the pilot episode and the development of HB the series wouldn't have done so well. The only deep episode was episode 4, because it knew how to dedicate time to the best protagonist-antagonist relationship of the show (val and angel). Adam has been wasted, making him just a sadist, cretin and child. Not to mention that after 7 episodes in which he is presented as a threat that is difficult to stop, with the arrival of Lucifer the problem is completely solved... I hope things change in the following seasons because the pace is going to make the series suffer.

[@leotamer5]

I agree Hazbin has its pacing problems, but I think Adam being stomped by Lucifer was well-established. It is said through that the series that Lucifer allowed the exterminations to happen and that he made the condition that hell-born are exempt, especially his only beloved child. Adam decided to directly target Charlie because he was personally upset at her. Adam set himself up for his own defeat in a way telegraphed through the series.

[@artistanthony1007]

​​@@bluespirit5112 Studio Trigger made Edgerunners equivalent as a show to Hazbin and still managed to do better and more within the small time but has 2 extra episodes, Viv not being smart like that should not be ignored and she needs to have people tell her stubborn, childish axx that she had made big problems and needs to rethink how she makes stuff, this is harsh but needs to be said.

[@skyneko136]

If you tell Vivienne her pacing is shit you'll be called a hater and blocked by her

[@MasterKnightDH]

IOW, an arrogant, pretentious creator for an arrogant, pretentious work that portrays Heaven to be an equally arrogant, pretentious place.

[@user-mz9xo3hx1h]

​@@MasterKnightDHyou act like episode 6 didn't imply only the exorcist are bad

[@catgirl4198]

Well she was fed up with the mindless hate that she couldn’t separate the hate with the genuine criticism. She’s not a bad person, just a flawed one with problems. Also, it’s not just her who does the writing and the pacing might be because of the limit of episodes in the season.

[@user-mz9xo3hx1h]

@@catgirl4198 finally someone sensible

[@FizzieSprite]

The fact she blocks people on the official Hazbin twitter as well 💀you can't gatekeep your OWN community like that. I don't see the official Supernatural twitter account blocking people, nor do I see the official Wendy's twitter blocking people because people might think their food is bad.

[@DjGameKing]

Wanna know something that bothers me? Adam, and all of the Exorcists for that matter, have faces (or well, helmets as we come to find out) that make them look similar to the imps of Hell and *NOTHING* gets done with that. Adam is now dead, Lute has fucked off to Heaven and it hasn't even been brought up. I know we have a second season that comes out and I'm looking forward to it, but the fact that nothing gets done with such a similar design at all does make it feel... empty, honestly, and even to a point of making me question why this design was chosen at all.

[@pirurinsigma4869]

I think it could be a reference to Samael, the angel of death said to be in charge of punishing sinner (basically, he does the dirty work for God or in this case, heaven's) and is sometimes considered to be more of a demon/fallen angel than an actual angel

[@DjGameKing]

@@pirurinsigma4869 If that is what they are going for, even just having Alastor or whoever go like "hey, do I know you," since Samael is probably gonna show up at some point next season (since Lilith is getting involved) to put that link there would've been good. I do hope they do something with it, but we'll see

[@pirurinsigma4869]

@@DjGameKing I was talking more of in symbolical sense so I'm not sure if Samael will be actually present in Hellaverse as a separate character but I suppose it's a solid possibility since there's still much we have yet to see about the heaven faction and whether if there will be more famous angels we know of by name.

[@DjGameKing]

@@pirurinsigma4869 Ah, read it too literally then, my bad LOL

[@pirurinsigma4869]

@@DjGameKing It's even more interesting if you think about how there's also an interpretation of how Samael is the one who that orchestrated the tempting of Adam and Eve (the snake being his own pet), or that he was the one Lillith courted with after leaving Adam. If Adam and his exorcist angels were all meant to symbolize Samael... well, you can see how ironic this really is

[@avena7506]

I really feel like the show did what it could with the runtime it had but also isn't excuses from criticism just because it only got 8 episodes. Hopefully Amazon will give it more time in the future and it'll iron out some pacing issues along the way. It was super flawed but enjoyable as all hell.

[@swaggydragon]

I lowkey half blame the run time definitely, there’s a netflix show called blue eye samurai and has 7-9 episodes all an hour long and got a pretty good storyline and makes sense, amazon rlly fucked them over, but honestly I can’t tell until we get /more/ cause the writing does have a play in it

[@riptors9777]

Another issue i have is the underusage of the V´s Would anything in the first season have changed plot wise if they werent in it? The conflict between Vox and Alastor was propped up to be such a huge deal.. but except for that one (entertaining) musical number.. nothing actually happened. Also the final musical number.. why are the Vs so happy? NOTHING has changed.. and Allastor makes an imidiate comeback with the hotel being rebuild better and grander then ever before.. infact Lucifer is now FULLY BEHIND THE PROJECT... their position is WORSE then it was before because the hotel is now virtually untouchable.. including alastor and angeldust. One call to daddy from charly and Lucifer would flatten their whole little empire they built up, not to mention that Charly has shown to be powerfull enough to tussle with an Archangel. Yet they are celebrating for some reason? And arent the other overlords a bigger concern for their powergrab plans then Allastor who has been doing nothing for 7 years... and continues to do nothing to impede them even after re-emerging? This all seems like Viv had this concept of the Vs in her head and crammed them into the show... and promptly forgot to actually do something with them. (Also why does velvette have no voice in the final episode? Did they run out of money for her voice actor or something?)

[@HeteroflexibleMerus]

Val is the only one who did anything and even then, they could've been removed and honestly nothing would be lost. Also what the hell are they gonna do with Lucifer parked at the hotel? They are like no threat to the cast and if they try anything, Lucifer will stomp on them instantly. The Vs should've been the season 1 antagonists with Heaven moved to Season 2 to solve this issue.

[@riptors9777]

@@HeteroflexibleMerus Exactly. Also their bit in the song makes no sense: What headless cattle ripe for the picking? What overlords are hanging by a threat? Alastor re-apears as soon as they rebuild the hotel... lucifer now fully believes in the project and redemption and he actually fought a bonafide angel to protect his daughter... does anybody believe the 3 stooges can even put up half a fight against the most powerfull angel in existance when Alastor couldnt hold his ground against dudebro Adam? (Who had no hope of ever defeating lucifer) So why are they so happy? And why do they believe that the future of hell belongs to the Vs? None of the other established overlord lost anything in that battle either so its not like usual after an extermination that territory is up for grabs. The Vs are such a non threat atm that there needs to be some serious bullshit pulling to make them the antagonists of season 2 Vivzie really wrote herselfe into a corner trying to shoehorn every possible plot threat she ever came up with into 8 episodes and it shows :/

[@HeteroflexibleMerus]

@@riptors9777 Even then, it's gonna be contrived because if Adam can bitch slap Alastor without batting an eye, how the hell are the Vs even a threat? Also Angel's abuse arc feels needlessly drawn out given Charlie could've just forced Val to give it up or you know now that Lucifer is there, she could ask him to force Val to hand over the paper. The Vs are like no threat to the main cast and Lucifer can kill them if they even try anything with the flick of his wrist.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@riptors9777 Remember Charlie's words "Maybe dad was right about me" when calling her mom in Pilot? That clearly said Lucifer did not have any support but her mom did, people saying the Pilot is canon honestly are liars because I do not buy it.

[@riptors9777]

@@artistanthony1007 I do think the pilot is canon because Vivzie clearly expects that all her viewers have watched it in order to allready know who is who with how many characters are thrown at us and how little time she spends on establishing, well, anyone. Also her mother was allready missing and not taking Charlies calls during the pilot episode, charly might have called her mother but then only left a voice message since she wouldnt get an answer. But thats not here or there: The situation at the end of Season 1 leaves no Room for the Vs to even attempt to sabotage the hotel now that daddy lucifer is fully in support of his daughter. Also how the hell was Vox able to spy on the final battle at the hotel? In one episode he had Sir Pentious sneak in cameras.. wich where found. So he clearly doesnt have the power of just seeing what he wants to see... so how can he follow the entire battle on TV? Inside and outside the hotel mind you? The Vs make absolutely no sense whatsoever

[@bedrockboy2194]

Remember when seasons of a show were like 20-25 episodes long good times.

[@smugbowkid9919]

I think that the biggest criticism I’ve always had for all of Vivziepop’s work is the pacing. I don’t know why her shows seem to flip back and forth between too fast and too slow.

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Simple. She has no self control. If she has an idea she wants to put it in NOW, no matter if it fits or not. She really needs someone to tell her "NO! We cannot do this. FOCUS!" because it's clear there isn't one there on her writing team, just bunch of yes man.

[@riptors9777]

Consistency is also an issue with her work. Just look at helluva boss and the social dynamics that sometimes are in place, and sometimes they simply arent. Having a relationship of any kind with an imp is a huge friggin taboo wor demonic royalty... yet no one bats an eye that Beelzebub is in a relationship with a hellhound.. a class even lower then an imp? Its a huge deal that Blitzo has his own business... cause imps have a hard time doing anything else then being farmers or cannon fodder (cannon fodder for what? Hell has no wars...) yet we have crimson, a imp so powerfull he can threaten one of the princes of hell and get away with it to boot? Vizzaroli who not only bagged himselfe one of the princes of hell as a lover but also is one of the biggest entertainment stars in hell? M & M (along with alot of other imps) being able to afford, and being let into, Asmodeus club? Are imps hells bottom feeders now or are they just normal citizens? Viv wants her cake and eat it too. Also could we please have some other character motivations then daddy issues allready? XD Wouldnt be surprised if Adam also just had daddy issues because god let all that shit happen to him and thats why adam turned out to be such a colossal douche...

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@AzraelSoulHunter If people dont want to wake up she's that and harming her shows, they better because I can't ignore and deny that at this point, plus she's just stubborn and childish.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@riptors9777 There should have been some Hellhounds siding with Loona because that antagonizing & annoying Poodle Demon starting it and some not giving a fxck about Bee and her nice-ness, having just Blitz and Loona as the ones being problematic is atrocious and horrible writing, also people seriously saying Bee is good & cares? Pfft my axx, if she doesn't want to come over to Blitz herself and talk but instead wanting to shove the responsibility on Loona then she's not this amazing person, plus Viv and her team dont point out that Bee and Tex are literally relatives cause Tex's kind comes from her but I'm not bothered by Andrealphus flirting with his sister because the joke was subtle, he doesnt actually want to be with her as was just saying she looks attractive, he's flamboyant, they're both British which Europe royals did have the i word, they're Demons and well they are evil so it's not people expect to worship the two but that's not really true.

[@ChinaResidence]

I really hope Charlie meets a demon thats truly evil and irredeemable cuz even though they are in literal hell every demon we met seems like they could be redeemed in some way.

[@crvwave3797]

Valentino seems irredeemable

[@dDoodle788]

Vox,Velvet and especially Valentino seem pretty irredeemable. Alastor also, while having some redeeming qualities, is pretty much just manipulating Charlie to get what he wants

[@Es_gee]

The three V's and Alastor:

[@Koispeck]

Honestly having Vaggie be the one to kill the angel would make sense because she KNOWS angels can be fatally wounded by angelic metal based on her own experience.

[@maiarustad5062]

I really like how you've grown as a reviewer, your takes here are all quite valid. As for what the point is to making these videos when you won't change the show, here's one: you're giving writers (like me) who were inspired by the show the nuanced approach we need to improve our own works. The point you made about how introducing a lot of characters isn't necessarily bad *so long as it doesn't mean a lackluster exploration of the core cast* is something I haven't thought of before, and I'll use it going forward. Also, you make the point about Camilla not having enough time to get emotionally invested, and the problem with Vaggie's betrayal being resolved so quickly, but there's another critique that could be made that kinda overlaps with both. That being, we don't get nearly enough time between finding out Vaggie's secret and the reveal of it to the main cast. This conflict is hands down the most characterization of Vaggie we have in the show, it's us seeing how she deals with a complicated situation that she is going through on her own. But we only get her confrontation with Adam, her saying "I need to go to the bathroom" (avoiding making a decision), and then wham bam it's revealed because of course Vaggie wouldn't be able to go along with Adam during the trial. What I think could've been great would've been a scene or two with lower stakes where that tension was left to build up a bit. The tension of how Charlie responds to the betrayal is good (and also resolved too fast) but I think the tension of Vaggie feeling like she has this huge secret has even more potential that was unused.

[@WeebGuru6]

Me and manga be on the same page viz villains are way better then her main character also Adam not knowing how to get into heaven honestly makes sense for his character but sera not knowing is a problem

[@Ramsey276one]

"The Lord works in mysterious ways..." Shouldn't we know A BIT so we don't go against The Lord's Plan? *"NO"*

[@marley7868]

@@Ramsey276one I prefer angels as purpose built so you know when left without god managing everything they all kinda start arguing and have absolutley no idea what to do

[@bonbun-ot5lj]

I feel like that's intentional

[@WeebGuru6]

@@bonbun-ot5lj explain dear sir

[@bonbun-ot5lj]

@@WeebGuru6 that Sera doesn't know how people get to heaven

[@Perdix64]

Hang on a minute, since Vaggie’s an angel and she lost her eye to a holy weapon, WOULDN’T SHE KNOW THAT THAT CAN HARM ANGELS?

[@YetiOfTheWoods]

That what I been think plus if baggie was original an angel, wouldn’t she know that heaven was corrupt? And thus be against Charlie’s plan of the hazbin hotel ( as in sending the sinner to heaven, not help them improve as people)

[@23boo]

To me it’s clear they had this big complex world with fun characters they wanted to show,but they ended up rushing to show off all this cool stuff instead of taking a breath to explode what we already know

[@kasumikat]

THANK YOU for pointing out your personal opinion about adam, that was one of the things that was throwing me off about this show

[@random_user2050]

Honestly, what would have felt out of character for Charlie would be if she remained mad about Vaggie being an angel. Her being an extremely forgiving person and sweeping things under the rug. I have mentioned to a group of friends how unlikely it would be for the princess of Hell to lose her temper over something like that, especially as she knows her girlfriend has been by her side for years and since the day she began running the hotel.

[@billcipher8645]

Yeah, honestly, it would be out of character for her to act angry forever. I can still see her make some passive aggressive comments towards Vaggie or constantly reminding her that killing is wrong tho

[@CatoftheStorm]

True, but even if Charlie forgave her, that doesn't mean the others in the hotel (or anyone else who know Vaggie) would forgive her. That is where the conflict could come from. Letting that plot point go was the missed opportunity for character growth/interactions. Everyone who hates angels would have a target right in front of them without an army to protect her (since Charlie was seen as a pushover by most people).

[@EDDSWORLDMEGAFAN]

I have to agree, the pacing was pretty jarring for me and it feels like plot elements that were SUPER interesting were just...... discarded. I wish they slowed down and hearing it was only going to be 8 episodes a season made me worried it was going to be rushed since your typical Anime arc is about 24 episodes. That fear was right, i just wished they gave it the space to properly develop these interactions in a more interesting way. I'm not saying its bad, but with the amount of time it took to drop these episodes: i was hoping for more.

[@geardog24]

If I have to guess, while the first season dealt with the Exorcists and Angel Dust’s growing character, next will be about taking care of the V’s along with the mystery of Lilith. And if we get a third season, it’ll probably involve the earth and maybe revealing the truth about Alastor.

[@toomanyfandoms1684]

Yah I totally Agree with the pacing. I think the they needed more ep's to it and/or longer eps. So that way we could get more charter growth.

[@ptlemon1101]

My main issues: -Plot-holes and contradictions: Lucifer says he fell because he and Lillith gifted the apple and free will to Adam and Eve. Why would they need the apple to have free will when Lillith herself CHOSE to leave Adam out of her own free will, meaning humans already had free will. How can Vaggie say she didn’t know angels could be hurt when she even got blinded and hurt? Why does Purgatory not exist (hence why the Hotel’s existence) but then Saints are also a thing (evidenced by Saint Peter). Viv isn’t consistent with the theological concepts she borrows, using some and removing others to suit her needs. Why do hellborn demons keep saying things like “Oh my God”. I get sinners but not the others. So many examples; -The format doesn’t work: the pacing is atrocious. This should have been a more episodic-type show/Monster of the Week, where each episode, a demon appears and they have to reform them. Think how in Lilo & Stitch, they try to reform each of Stitch’s cousins, who were made by Jumba to weapons, to be nicer and join their o’hana/family. Of course, some episodes would be more plot-heavy, but I think the idea of actually filling the hotel and see how many lives were changed would have been better. Some say this would make the cast too bloated but not every reformed sinner needs to be a mainstay. It could still work with the same main cast; -Wasted potential: Every time Viv seems to be doing something with a great pay off, something that seems so obvious and the audience is waiting for, she just… doesn’t. And not because she wanted to “subverse” our expectations, it’s because we saw way head of her and she didn’t. Example, it would have been great if Adam was a higher tier angel, so not even angelic weapons would be able to hurt him, and when he yells “You should be worshipping me!” he instantly fell, being like Lucifer, and vulnerable. And then die. It seemed so obvious that I was flabbergasted that it didn’t happen. Another thing, although this could change in Season 2 and it seems so, the reason why Alastor was interested in the Hotel would be to make deals with each resident and almost make his own army by enslaving them and then throw them at either Heaven or Earth. Alternatively, it would have been cool if it was Lucifer, because, oh my Satan, besides his design, he’s so lame. Going back to Alastor, another plan would be getting the souls of the residents to pay his debt and free himself whichever entity has power over him. Hazbin Hotel has some great moments, songs and designs but it never reaches the potential it clearly has. “Oh, you’re overthinking. Just turn off your brain and enjoy the show.” I can’t because the show doesn’t make wanna do that. The show does wants to think. A show that has an abused promiscuous drug addict and asks you to empathize with him isn’t a show to turn your brain off - you have to think! In the end, big cock, but no cum.

[@stuffynosepatrol]

it feels like they tried to cram 2 seasons into 1

[@paradoxtatorstudios9681]

it really does lol they had too much to work with and rushed because of it

[@SamTheGumMan117]

One of the biggest things I loved about the show was the songs and musical feel throughout. Also, the pacing being weird at places was weird when I noticed it but not too bad and can't think of much else I didn't enjoy but stoked for S2 whenever it swings our way.

[@Hewylewis]

I'm honestly iffy about how Adam was portrayed in this series. I mean, he's basically breaking all seven sins, yet just because he is the first man, he gets away with it. How does God not know about how crass Adam acts? I feel Adam should either have been written to be more noble and regretful for having defied God's order not to eat the forbidden fruit, or at least have God find out about his behavior and have him banished to Hell for all eternity. But hey, that's just me. Also, why do all the exorcists dress up like demons with sharp teeth and horns and the like?

[@oneofnone7947]

Nifty shouldn't have bin the one to stab him it should have bin one of his sons preferably able in full angle garb then remove his mask and say that was a punishment for his deeds apologies to lucifer and tell the other angles to leave or face him and his army ofcourse when he leaves the hotel he stops to see his bother to say that there father was to arrogant to be useful hopefully the plan can be executed

[@dankmemes8254]

They needed a hypocrite angel divine being to be main villian in the show it would have been much better that adam does embody all the 7 sins however it doesn't show right away but the longer the show goes the he embodies them

[@Hewylewis]

@@dankmemes8254I feel it would've been a more fitting end if he was punished by god to stay in hell, rather than be murdered.

[@samflood5631]

Not to mention he swears like a drunk sailor. But then again, this is written by Viziepop, the queen of too much swearing.

[@Hewylewis]

@@samflood5631 No kidding.

[@mattwo7]

I think there's a problem with the episode count and knowing Vizy's writing from Helluva Boss which also has one cour seasons, axing the musical numbers wouldn't even fix the problem. She definitely can't be trusted to tell the stories she wants to tell with such a limited amount of episodes. Ideally she should _should_ be able to and there are examples other shows getting it right but I guess not everyone has that kind of skill.

[@starscreamapologist3003]

I got the feeling that Viv had an idea for the full story and was really trying to squeeze that larger narrative into the 8 episodes (maybe it was unclear whether or not the show would be renewed for another season? Idk) which ultimately kinda wrecked the show’s pacing

[@jans.g6033]

If they had no choice but to keep to 8 episodes per season, I wish ep 6 was the season finale, where Vaggie was revealed to be a former exterminator. Spend maybe at least 1 ep showcasing heaven beforehand so we get to establish what Emily and Sera are like, maybe with Adam and Lute, or use another to focus on establishing more the relationship between Lucifer and Charlie (like a flashback as to what happened before or after Lilith's split, the moments of Lucifer's depression and why he's so hesitant to reach out to his own kid) and hey maybe add in a little moment of when Charlie finds motivation in pouring herself into helping her own people too. Then maybe the entirety of the 2nd season can just be focused on the ticking time left before the angels arrive, training, Vaggie-Charlie drama, more character moments to get us attached, and then the season 2 finale could've been the culling day.

[@koleszgdanska7149]

Its not even hell at this, its just some nether dimension

[@samflood5631]

At least both Fire Emblem Three Houses, Dragon Age series and Baldur’s Gate 3 did the whole religious hypocrisy better. Fire Emblem Three House had the Church of Serios do very controversial stuff like hide actual history from the people, execute anyone who goes against their practices and halt the progression of technology. Rhea along with Edelgard is one of those flawed characters who do very questionable things just to make sure humans won’t repeat the same mistake 12 centuries ago. Imagine if Rhea was a whole lot better if she started acting vulgar and swears every minute. The Dragon Age Series has mostly every religious organization be hypocritical. The Chantry basically oppresses mages and keep them locked up in towers so they can use their magic for war. The Qunari had a strict religious system in where they’re assigned a role and kill anyone who disagrees with them. The Elven Gods are a bunch of Elven Mages who let the power and fame go to their head and start enslaving their own people. Imagine of those gods were just as vulgar as Adam from Hazbin Hotel. Baldur’s Gate 3 did a great job of showing that Gods like Shar, Mystara, Vlaakith and Zariel being assholes who screwed over characters like Shadowheart, Gale, Karlach, Wyll and Lae’zel. Sure the whole Shar thing basically ruined Viconia’s character, but at least it shows that characters like Minsc and Karlach are starting to realize that the Gods of Fae’run do nothing but fight each other and use their own followers just for their own selfish gains. It would be bad if the Gods of Fae’run themselves started swearing none stop. Same goes for a lot of games like Final Fantasy X and 16, Legacy of Kain, God of War series, Persona 5, Devil May Cry, Divinity Original Sin 2, Demons/Dark Souls and even Fenyx Immortal Rising did the whole religious hypocrisy thing way better than Hazbin Hotel and those games didn’t need to be vulgar just to be adult. At least Family Guy, Drawn Together, South Park, American Dad, Boondocks, Aqua Teen Hunger Force and Robot Chicken kept their swearing and other vulgar stuff to a minimum.

[@Erisrose-moon]

Adam and the exorcists feel more like end game series villains than season 1 villains. Do they really expect us to be threatened by the Vs over beings that have easily been killing hellborn for centuries?

[@BearFruit90]

I think they should bring in the big boss angels like archangel micheal. God seems to be absent and these angels don’t even know the hell they are doing.

[@tdgarts]

I feel like HH shoulda been more or less been like Ep4 of the show; more episodic. We're able to focus one ep for each sinner's problems and their redemption (maybe add a few more characters for the big fight at the end, they kinda did this with Cherri) while still in the background there is the looming threat of the angels and have the big fight in season two. But with Viv's other show Helluva Boss, I kinda feel like the loose episodic formula wouldn't last very long as that's not her strong suit. IMO, writing just isn't her strong suit in general and she should be handing that off to other people most of the time. I also wish we saw more of hell during the battle and maybe have Charlie rally ALL of hell instead of just the cannibals. It just feels a little awkward to have the extermination only on the hotel. Like, what's happening with the other parts of Hell during all of this? is everyone just chilling and watching (Kinda, bc the Vee's are watching it all go down), or are they gettting attacked/fighting back too.

[@HeilRay]

Given what we know. There’s no reason Alistor couldn’t solo the exterminators by sheer manipulation. They aren’t nearly as skilled as we were led to believe and only their defense against anything but angelic weapons or blood could kill them. Carmine kicking Vaggie around was almost world breaking. Imagine alistor yoinking several angelic weapons with his tentacles, creating spinning buzzsaws of death under a mist of blood and darkness. Angels wouldn’t know what’s going on but alistor has all seeing eyes that can scan the area for targets. I’m actually surprised nobody kidnapped an Angel to butcher her for weaknesses. Maybe drain their blood because that has something to do with hurting other angels.

[@jordanlaplante1131]

My problem with the show is that the Angels going down to Hell to exterminate people makes no sense when we are shown multiple times in the show that the people of Hell constantly killing each other so wouldn't it make more sense for the Angels only to attack hell because they were feeling threatened not some big secret in heaven

[@kateorgera5907]

When people of Hell kill each other without angelic weapons (which is apparently hard to come by, according to Carmilla), they generally respawn eventually, though not with the same amount of power. When angels kill with angelic weapons, it's permadeath

[@toanuva6178]

7:50 There is a sequel song called “Devil Comes Back to Georgia” where he comes back when Johnny is older to play to get it and Johnny’s soul.

[@Mangakamen]

The Lyrics say otherwise. "Well you get your fiddle Devil if you think that you can win I beat you once you old dog and I'll whip your butt again John Brown's green the Devil is red My little baby loves shortin' bread The Devil's dream's that he can win But Johnny is the best that's ever been" It's left ambiguous - The only implication is that Johnny is out of practice and that he's practicing for the devil.

[@toanuva6178]

@@Mangakamen Ohhh, my bad

[@Blessed-Lil-Sheep]

My biggest problem is that it’s supposed to be a separate show from hellva boss I know it’s made from the same people But at least make angelic characters behave differently they act the same as demons which they usually act quirky and cuss like a teenager over the simplest sentences For example Adam should of behaved more angelic than acting like a asshole like every other demon… Charlie and Vaggie are the only characters that separate themselves from any other demon that actually has personality and fight for a good cause There’s barely anyone in the entire franchise that doesn’t act like any other character

[@kittymarch4203]

i cant be the only one who hated how Adam was killed?

[@Idk-qd6kf]

You are the only one. Nifty went stabby stab, that's all I needed.

[@kakaaw228]

I dislike how he went out (smiling to Lute) and that was glossed over too fast for me.

[@paradoxtatorstudios9681]

it was anticlimactic ngl. he fought both an overlord and the king of hell himself but a gremlin is the one to kill him-

[@Toshineko]

Viziepop seems to have a problem taking criticism and improving her writing. So I doubt that she would take this video well. That being said, I really hope she listens to criticism and reflect on her writing.

[@Anonymous-bl8df]

She has been writing for more than a decade. Why didn't she learn anything all those years ago?

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@Anonymous-bl8df Stubborn and doesnt care, she doesnt mean what she says and has shown that for so many things like Hazbin being female centric.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Show has several issues 1. It's painfully rushed. Show effectively crammed like 4 seasons worth of plot into 1 8 episode season and it shows 2. Incoherent story writing. Extermination which was supposed to be for population control is now simply so Heaven can control Hell and has zero idea how you even get into Heaven. Also apparently Heavenly weapons can kill angels and no one ever figured that out 3. TOO MUCH SINGING, I get it's a musical but man there are way too many songs in here that could be scrapped for more story telling.

[@helion_ut]

I gotta disagree with your second point. The whole point is that the official reason for the exterminations is to reduce overpopulation, but the unofficial or "real" reason is just making sure hell doesn't have big enough numbers to overthrow hell, to control them, etc. It is very common for corrupt governments to pretend like they are doing the good thing while having malicious motives. And I mean, I get that you don't like musicals, but calling it an issue like it's a fact is kinda much, like man, you can't objectively criticise a musical for having music in it pfft.

[@kotlolish]

Something tells me 2: doesn't permanently kill them. Wich means Adam is coming back possibly but in hell. Kinda like Holy cannot kill Holy, and unholy cannot kill unholy. Angelic weapons were used to kill powerful demons as seen in Helluvah Boss.. but charlie's arm during the final fight... I think THATS UNHOLY. Aka something that can hurt and kill angels permanently. Kinda like a certain someone got to heaven.

[@animezilla4486]

I understand about it being rushed but as far as the story I think it's still works because the beauty of it is we don't know what it actually takes to get into heaven which also give the show a great mystery. Besides episode 5 has revealed that most of the Angels were unaware of the extermination sera stated to the extermination is to protect heaven but I think there's an unknown enemy out there that she's aware of them but won't reveal it

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

@@animezilla4486 Except it doesn't address the bigger issue, namely "Why are Sinners in Hell" I feel like that's a bigger issue than how you get into Heaven as not a single Sinner we've seen has shown themselves to be a genuinely good person who maybe got screwed over by the system.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

@@sandersGG Some of them do, others don't. Fight For Love really doesn't make sense as Vaggie has always fought to protect Charlie who she loves, if she was fighting cause she's got a hate boner for angels, the show does a poor job of showing it.

[@haliehope7067]

by far the most well thought out, respectful and put together reviews of hazbin hotel i have seen. thank you.

[@dotcom1_official]

Never thought someone would use Alfred Hitchcock as a talking point in a Hazbin Hotel Review. Bravo!

[@Mangakamen]

Really? I thought that sort of thing would be more common...

[@dotcom1_official]

@@Mangakamen Imo, no one talks about Hitchcock anymore. Everything's always Kubrick this and Tarantino that. I really appreciate you bringing him up specifically, as well as detailing the techniques he pioneered to show how the series can improve in the future.

[@Orangeinawall]

Hazbin hotel is missing complexity in its writing. This is the money blatant with Adam and the sinners. Most sinners do still deserve hell, even if redemption should be possible for those who don’t deserve an eternity of punishment. This is hardly explored as Charlie just keeps saying “nooo they are misunderstood”. Adam and some of the other angels are also as many have said, just not right and overly assholy. The idea of evil angels and heaven being corrupt is interesting, but entirely flipping it as hell good heaven bad is a stupid idea. The angels still should be virtuous at least on the surface, having them blatantly being just as bad as hell right away just strips the mystery and suspense from the conflict. Also the pacing as mentioned is bad, very bad. It feels like even though there are only 8 episodes the show has fully blown its mountain of ideas and drama. There isn’t much save for some mysteries, rivalries, and more redemptions left.

[@brayenmorrison3199]

Oh boy Kamen. The Hazbin Hotel fanatics are at the doors... What shall we do? The pacing was kind of bad. Some parts they go a bit too fast then on other parts a bit too slow. They introduced too many characters. And didn't give enough screentime for some of them. Like a introduction and fleshing out.

[@dmittleman9757]

Sounds like a Vivzie product to me!

[@user-mz9xo3hx1h]

Your acting like Kamen fans won't act like fanatics when someone dare to disagree

[@FunWare.mp4]

A personal problem I have with hazbin hotel, is that it doesn't look like adult animation. I dont mean that to be rude, I like how it looks, but Vox looks like something out of Villainous, or some other edgy kids show. Plus sometimes its really hard to see what's going on when they move or spin really quickly. And Need I mention how absurdly colorful, or absurdly dull the show can look, I know Vivien Medrano has made a better looking show (Helluva boss). So I assume this was not her choice.

[@lesterwilliamsjr649]

This show sometims felt more like a show case of different artist due to the amount of content they placed into it. I'm surprised we didn't see more guest in the hotel.

[@matthewsimmons9277]

Ironically enough the character with the most swears is Adam while Lucifer has the least swears.

[@DuneStone6816]

I had the same thoughts about Adam. I think it would have been better if he was outwardly super pious and proper, but his arrogant and sadistic nature was only subtly expressed. His behavior kills any distinction between the residents of Heaven and Hell. There's a bit where Charlie drops and F-bomb during a meeting in Heaven and all the angels act shocked. It makes no sense, because Adam had already dropped an F-bomb - and would drop several more - during that same meeting and no one cared. I get that Heaven is supposed to be hypocritical, but hypocrites don't look EXACTLY like the people they criticize. The angels should have never cussed, but maybe some of them are super passive aggressive instead.

[@nightmarearcade2663]

Something that bothered me about the characters was that many just feel like they just come and go with no real bearing on anything in the long run. Velvette was the one who wanted this all out war with heaven in the third episode and when it finally happens she just sits at home watching it on tv. Then you got Sera, and Emily who felt like they should've had way bigger roles than what they got.

[@CrimsonCrusader69]

I think it should have been Vaggie who killed the angel, being a former exterminator herself she would have known that angels aren't invincible and she would have known their favored attack patterns which she could exploit. It would also have set up more conflict if she chose to keep this from Charlie even after she found out this action had caused the increase in exterminations. It felt silly to me that Camilla had to school her on the fact that angels can be killed using their own weapons when Vaggie had her eye gouged out with said weapon.

[@ulfberht4431]

I really hope the show doesn’t go the route I think it’s gonna go: that all of Heaven is evil and corrupt while Hell is misguided and sympathetic. It takes away all the nuance if that’s the route it’s gonna go. I’m starting to get sick of the “evil is sympathetic while good is corrupt” troupe. It creates a very conflicting, if not very dangerous, message.

[@el_barras2622]

For me, this whole fight with the exorcists has been a mistake. Why base the plot of 7 episodes on telling us that they are very dangerous and that nothing can be done against them, if you then solve it by having Lucifer get rid of them without any problem? This should have been extended, it seemed very rushed and I get the impression that there is no antagonist capable of doing anything. (if Lucifer has been able to defeat Adam, the rest of the overlords are harmless)...

[@StarViewer68]

What I think the writers should have done was show that at the root of Adam and Lucifer’s hatred for each other is envy. Both envy each other for what they felt the other ‘maliciously’ stole from them. Adam felt that Lucifer stole Lilith from him and tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, leading to getting kicked out of Eden (another significant loss for Adam). Lucifer felt that after being kicked out of heaven, his home, he would later had to watch Adam seemingly take his place in heaven while he’s condemned to eternity in hell. So their fight could have led to a stalemate as both parties accused the other of robbing what was rightfully theirs. Listening to Adams and her dad’s back-and-forth, Charlie would stop their fight and help them see eye to eye and realize at the core of their hatred is envy. Both sides begin feeling empathy for the first time and with Charlie as a mediator, Adams and Lucifer are willing to work with each other instead of against each other.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

That would be awesome 👏

[@0Mitzuio]

My main flaw is that either they didn't want to write a coherent, compelling story, or this was the best they could come up with. The show isn't much of a show; it's a compilation of music videos with noisy filler. In that respect, the show tried to be a modern-day "Jem and The Holograms."

[@WeaponsRemorse]

The blatant animation errors upon multiple re-watches, and I’m trying to put basically 26 episodes worth of Content to eight. I’m not sure if it’s Amazon‘s fault for buying it with only eight. I want to know what was left on the cutting room floor To this date The tightest writing narrative, and with the least episodes with a fully completed, plot is Madoka Magica 13 episodes of the cleanest writing, and directing I have ever seen and yet still to this day nothing has ever came close

[@fruitloops2058]

I thought about it too and I've realised why Madoka is so well paced while Hazbin isn't. The characters: Out of the main 5 in Madoka only Madoka and Sayaka are actively developing each episode, the other 3 are more supportive roles who have their moments to shine then go back to support; even Madoka is sidelined, by others and herself. This means every character can complete their arcs because they have enough time and length for it with the story fueling this. In Hazbin there are 4/6/7 mains and only Pen feels like his arc is fully completed because he had a whole episode as a lead, then continued in the background. Charlie, Vaggie, Angel even Lucifer needed time in the spotlight to be set up then paid off and that's *four* compared to two and idfk what Alastor's deal is. Even then Ep 4 which is arguably the best at this has nothing to do with the war. Tldr. Man they should have taken the chance with a S1 A and B.

[@WeaponsRemorse]

@@fruitloops2058 Exactly. Everything is valid point

[@artistanthony1007]

Dont forget Edgerunners and Over The Garden Wall, yes they were planned for just 1 Season but still best examples because they're shorter and do a first Season like Hazbin. Also sorry but Viv and her team are to blame on this one, not Amazon or A24 because they made the episodes and chose to put them together for the Season.

[@WeaponsRemorse]

@@artistanthony1007 That’s right I did forget those two and yeah it’s likely viv in the team

[@runawayfromtoads674]

You actually make me want to watch Madoka. I never got the chance to as a teen and hearing the praise for it in a Hazbin comparison is an interesting push.

[@christopherauzenne5023]

quick thoughts 1. I really wished the show actually addressed more points against charlie's "sinners can be redeemed" view instead of just protagonist side is right bad guys are just bad. If they actually addressed and explored the greys/points of both views they could have made the story much deeper and more thought provoking 2. I agree with the angel's death mystery should have had more importance/tied in better. I saw a great comment/theory that it wasn't a demon but an angel that killed them, presumably someone like lute ("angels dont make mistakes") who belief they are without flaw & years of exterminating made them into a psychotic killer who will attack their own, and they also mentioned that Adam this whole time was only putting on a asshole front/acting the fool to draw them out (which brings me to my third point) 3. adam should have had more depth, and nuance (fair warning record of ragnarok made me bias towards him) but even as a villain he was like you said one dimensional and evil. this is bad both because the shows whole idea is trying to redeem people and bad people can be made good, so why is this one guy just bad & can't be anything else, but also this is a major figure from the religion so it just feels a waste to not do anything more with them and their motives. 4.your right about them introducing too many people too often, from the online pilot I thought it was better where they were shown but as figures who would play a role in the story/characters eventually or at different points (like how in one piece figures are set up or named but dont show up/make their moves till later on for better pay off) 5. lastly, they redeemed sir pentious/showed sinners can enter heaven WAY too soon. the whole shows idea was meant to be about trying to redeem sinners so actually achieving to do that should have been a big moment for the show as a whole with massive build up, like something for the final season not the end of the first (this ties a lot with what you said about pacing). personally I would have had it be the first season be about trying to make hell take the hotel seriously (as well as for the people inside the hotel like angel dust) and by the end of season one while it's still scoffed at the main group for the most part actually believe in it & they're rewarded with at least a handful of new guests

[@jimsmarma2890]

The pilot is way better than the series. Ngl.

[@lesterwilliamsjr649]

This show should have been a movie series in my opinion because that is how it feels paced.

[@avivastudios2311]

The person that killed the angel should have been Lilith. SHE should have done it to protect Charlie. Carmilla shouldn't even be a character in this show.

[@poumybeloved]

She didnt done anything other than killing that angel in the entire show

[@ritaerror7829]

@@poumybeloved "but how else should characters know that angels can be killed and get their free weapons to fight in finale?!" /s

[@avivastudios2311]

​@@ritaerror7829 They should have made it so that she killed an angel and then disappeared to protect herself from the army that would be coming for her ass later.

[@alesbinka3146]

I personally think that Adam is a better villain than the ones from Helluva Boss for two reasons. 1. In comparison to villains like Crimson or Stella, who're kinda just evil and not realy interesting (or in the case of Stella extremely annoying) to watch. Adam is (in my opinion) one of the funniest characters in the show. I found his over the top asshole personality hilarius and even laugh at most of his jokes (which is something I can't say about other characters). But I can also see, why some people find him obnoxius. 2. Even though he's making jokes all the time, the characters treat him as a threat and when we get to the finale, we see what he's capable of. (Spoilers) He kills Sir Pentius with one shot, almost kills Alastor and if it wasn't for Lucifer, he would have killed Charlie too. Compare this to Striker, who is treated as a threat in his first appearence but is then turned to a joke in other episodes. Plus his song slaps.

[@Gruntvc]

Hope he isn't dead dead.

[@undertakernumberone1]

for Stella,i wish she hadnt been made that 2d, especially with S2. Feels like it was done to give Stolas the total, unshakeable moral high ground. "Look! she has always been an evil abusive monster! She didnt even hise it!" But it also means that Octavia's behavior in Loo Loo Land, while not unrealistic, feels off. Because Stella seemingly never hid her abuse of Stolas in public. So i seriously doubt Octavia wouldn't have heard about it... Same with Stolas' struggling in the talk with her. i think it would have been more interesting if both had valid grievances with Stella going well too far in the end. Crimson... personally i would have preferred Moxxie and his family to be maybe estrangrd but still amicable, but that aside: the homophobia angle felt really tacked on, as if to say :he already is an irredeemably scumbag monster... but we should add it to avoid anyone dinding hml cool regardless!" otherwise he isnt even a good evil mob boss... and Moxxie shouldnt have gotten tasered

[@bluedragonstudios9004]

Pacing does sound like a hard part of making a series. It took almost over a year to make my first book

[@Darksaviour]

My take =pros= Animation Voice acting Musical numbers =cons= Pacing Continuity and world building

[@jameslazaridis4180]

I’m sorry there will be no pro or cons prepared to be executed by force

[@ivansmirnoff6987]

I think between this and RWBY, we can finally say that 'indie' isn't a synonym for 'good'. Personally, this show will never appeal to me. It's too hot topic safe edgy. I hate the overuse of red burning my retinas. I dislike 90% of the character designs (what is Charlie anyways? She looks mostly human but her weird nose looks doglike). And it seems to think that mindless cussing makes it mature and cool, which is super embarrassing given how the creator is 31 years old. Also, I hate musicals. They feel unnatural to me. The whole thing is so fun to hate on, though.

[@user-mz9xo3hx1h]

A lot of your points are subjective

[@ivansmirnoff6987]

@@user-mz9xo3hx1h holy Jesus it's almost like I said that.

[@joeradish2087]

It's nice to know there are people who give actual criticism to the show. There are way too many people hating this when they've only seen screenshots or know the basic premise of the show.

[@devinsauls9137]

Is that "For True Story" from Sonic Adventure 2 I'm listening to in the background?! 😱 👂🏿

[@Mangakamen]

... Maybe... B)

[@TheLastCakeGames]

You're god damn right it is.