Heat Pump Installation Nightmare - Can It Be Saved?

#mcs #heatpump #airsourceheatpump
In this video, I am doing my best to repair a nightmare of a heat pump installation and it is not even remotely easy to fix it.

[@Icarus410a]

I've been a gas/heating engineer 20yrs, and an F gas air con installer for about 15 in the east midlands area, I'm busy, busy. In all that time from my customer base I've had ONE serious enquiry for a HP installation, the client was a multi millionaire and knew the value of a pound, after weeks of enquiry and calculations on my part the project was dropped, because it was only the grants available at the time that made the install cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I fitted a boiler. I've been called to service non functional HP installs, and cant get the original (National) installers to answer my emails or even the manufacturers. Without OEM manufacturer training how can you diagnose a faulty PCB or inverter board on these things? It's complication gone mad. Servicing? Repairs 10years after installation? Even a large regional air con contractor I know has completely rejected moving into this field, due to the afterservice minefield. This reminds me of the "Green Deal" scam a few years ago, or Prescotts' Home Information Packs fail. Toys for the rich. Rant over👍

[@johnsewell9332]

You haven’t got a clue how bad it is. There are millions of gas boilers nation wide most running for years with no issues and I very rarely see a bad installation. There aren’t many heat pumps installed yet every one i see is a disaster. A professional heating engineer can easily work on any fossil fuel boilers, take a look at Mitsubishi’s version of a combi boiler it’s in a different league in complication. Unless something seriously changes heat pumps are not going to meet the UKs future heating needs and a lot of people are going to have very cold winters and quite a lot of vulnerable people will die.

[@tirvplumbing]

If the industry ever wants to get over the bad reputation heat pumps have they need to improve their installer training. This one is particularly bad physically but a lot of installers either don't know how to or can't be bothered to set them properly for maximum efficiency. Sad state of affairs but it's good that's people like you are showing what can be achieved👍

[@Silky_boi]

Not just the industry but also customer base need to stop going after the lowest bidder. Every home remodel I do the owner will spend a fortune on making the home look pretty but cheap out on the system that makes the home comfortable.

[@gloveyourway2000]

@@Silky_boi Very true. Customers go for a lower bidder as they value heating less than aesthetics. No different to other trades such as the electrics (go for the cheapest bidder and have issues with poor quality lights, unsafe sockets and non-compliant wiring etc etc), windows (poor quality windows and installation means the windows fails earlier and lets in droughts), plumbing etc etc. More often then not, it's the stuff you can't see (electrics, plumbing) where people cheap out on which makes or breaks the property...

[@jonjo6886]

Oh, you are just so lovely!

[@normanboyes4983]

@@Silky_boiQuite often there is no linkage to a bad installation and price to the customer.

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

Plumbers are jumping into the heat pump market, without a firm grasp of system sizing and design. They just follow the outdated S-Plan, and hope for the best.

[@shm5547]

As annoying as it must be for you having to fault-find someone else's installation, it makes for a good video! Kudos for taking this one on and showing how it should be done.

[@MrRawMonkey]

This is why I don’t want a heat pump. I have picked tradesmen in the past, who despite research have under performed. Also my good friends have just had a heat pump installed. I will be interested to see how they survive their first winter. While some of the rads have been increased in size the downstairs uses existing micro bore. Also I can hear their heat pump from the opposite side of the street.

[@DanEVSolar7]

I’m not a plumber but have an interest in renewables and love your videos. I find them all very interesting… Keep up the good work! 👍

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you 🙏

[@Jonas-vi1sl]

Love these fault finding videos 👍 It would be nice to see diagram of this and how did determined that the blockage could ne in the heat exhanger? Is it common to flush the system before installation?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@zlmdragon. not as easy - as you cannot test with DHW will the system is up and running. Not a big deal really, as it will be the unit - the system is all new.

[@MWPHS]

Well done Szymon. Sometimes these things are sent to try us mate. I look forward to part 2! Good to see you at InstallerSHOW too, thanks for coming to see us. :)

[@newblackdog7827]

This exemplifies just how complex heat pump installation is and why it needs to be done by genuine experts.

[@user-te1le7ck6b]

Mate if only everyone showed your level of technical and practical understanding there wouldn’t be the shoddy work around but sadly that’s not the case , can’t wait for part 2 👍

[@danhollins935]

Great, honest content as always. We're just doing our second arotherm plus install (our first with HGA) and follow your stuff very closely. Look forward to seeing how this one works out. I often think we should be showing more of these jobs; the ones where you go and remedy a bad installation. Something MCS should be driving really, to hilight the differences in good and bad installations since they have the biggest platform, in theory. Keep up the good work 👍

[@richardlphillips]

Ah man, what a cliffhanger 😲 I loved this troubleshooting episode. Makes for great viewing and very interesting 🤔

[@gasmark340]

Very interesting video how your modifying the system to function properly. You explain very well. Waiting for the second part 👌😎

[@FloweringElbow]

Very cool to see the how it's often done 😮 vs how it should be done. We're just in the middle of doing our own diy UFH and installing a little 3.5kw ASHP. Whole system is very simple, single zone, no electric actuators, no tank (heating only), no buffer, no volumiser, no diverter valves, just UFH loops and a diy towel rail (28mm copper). We have been round a few friend's 'pro' installs and immediatly see poorly insulated external pipework with zip ties and uninsulated ball valves all over. They also seem to be crazy overkill in complexity and size! Time will tell if our little install will be sufficient, but the heat loss calcs etc sugest it will be more than enough... Anyway, you're videos are super helpful, looking forward to seeing how this one plays out. 😊

[@thejam51]

Enjoyed this and the button moon themed music. Looking forward to part II

[@abuhaqq]

I like how you methodically fault find. And I like the way you got on with laying the ufh pipes again without whining like most traders.

[@dominikgraniczny3804]

Szymon great job, great work! 😊 I had similar issue with heat meter by underfloor heating. I got 200 mbar pleasure drop by 0,7 m3/h just on heat meter. For test purposes I replaced heat meter with 130 mm long 1” pipe and flowrate was as I expected 😅 (I didn’t read all of 150 comments, hopefully somebody else had a similar issue).

[@trashmail8]

I'm not an installer either, but this is both very interesting to see and thank you so, so much for sharing this knowledge with the world. In the next 0-3 years, when I plan to be having conversations with various installers in order to select one of them to install a heat pump for my house, I know I can already ask/watch for things like: are they paying attention to the size of the existing pipes? Will they add insulation through the wall? Etc. Edit: since you cannot install the system for all of us: an checklist/"how-to select an installer for a heat pump installation"/"things to watch out for" video might be perhaps a nice idea? How can we "separate wheat from chaff" and not end up with something like what you initially encountered at this location? 🤔🤔

[@user-rn8rt8lg3o]

HeatGeek have a consumer advice playlist on their channel that goes into this in depth, there is also this video which seems to be exactly what you're asking Szymon for kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4aYfKqojNqgj5o

[@michaelhomer5155]

A master of your profession

[@richarddicktaylor219]

Great to see someone showing the complexities & applied problem solving that skilled trades do everyday.

[@barbiemagnolia3943]

Oh I wish you were here in Washington DC. The Contractor is horrible! You should see my HVAC electrical upgrade from gas to electricity . The company caused a power outage to my home and blew out my spa turning the power back on doing his own heavy up. He didn't label the breakers as he took them offline. You could become a billionaire in 30 days. Stay away from Greenscape Environmental Services in Washington DC. My problems sound like this case. It's not the heat pump it's the installer. The guy says he is use installing on new construction homes. I wish he had came to that realization before he put my 1939 all brick colonial in a coma. Keep spreading the knowledge. Thank You

[@normanboyes4983]

Syzmon you are really knocking them out of the park with this one and what a cliffhanger.🤣 Given the labour cost of this project a new pump and plate heat exchanger is likely the ‘expedient’ next step. When is part 2 (and part 3)😀👍😉

[@neilbissett1240]

Great video looking forward to episode two 👏😎

I like the format of that video ! Troubleshooting is really the best way to learn IMHO. I guess the problem is solved now 🙂 but I had instantly an idea to be able to exclude or not the heat exchanger : is there a port inside the heat pump to measure the pressure between the main pump and the heat exchanger (which should be in that order in the internal circuit) ? Or better : pressure measurement port before & after the heat exchanger, which allows to verify that the delta P across the H.E. is as expected or not ?

[@deanchapple1]

Nice informative video mate!! Thank you! 👍🏼👍🏼

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thanks Dean !

[@DannyBokma]

Thanks so much for this debugging session, I learned quite a bit! I would also love to learn what manual pipe bender you own, where did you buy it ( general brand is enough, ill look it up! all I can find are hydraulic ones for this diameter ) ? Thanks so much for your time!

[@piotrwasilewski1826]

Great Job as always !

[@leonmilner9994]

Great video! Awesome editing!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you 🙏

[@smclish]

Hi Szymon, great video cant wait for this conclusion of this..im thinking of putting in underfloor heating connected to a combi., But i want to future proof this installation. So was thinking 22mm pipe for the underloor piping for a total area of 60m. I know this isnt your normal way for these videos ,but what do you think?

[@tphvac87]

This is amazing we need to be doing this in the states!!! Great video and lots of knowledge learned! Thanks mate!! One question is that heating and cooling an inverter?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Mainly heating but yes it can also do cooling if needed

[@JWildOnes]

Best sort of jobs to improve problem solving skills. Going to be esential for all the bad installations that are out there. Company i work for are a service provider (service, repair and commission) for one of the bigger heat pump brands in the UK. Some of the standard of installs we see are shocking.

[@judebrown4103]

Oh no...what a cliffhanger!😅 I'm an interested potential customer not a plumber...sir, I worry when I see scree being put directly onto those underfloor heating pipes...i wonder what on earth would happen if one should leak? This is an absolutely fascinating example of how one must be careful to get the right person in to do the job. An ordinary householder would never be able to tell if a hear pump was being fitted correctly without researching using your videos. Thank you for enlightening me. 👍👏

[@mungoh42]

You can use an infra-red thermal camera to help find leaks on underfloor pipework, I am told.

[@judebrown4103]

@@mungoh42 ok...🤔...but what on earth do you do if you find one, they're encased in concrete aren't they?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Can be fixed and it’s not that difficult. That’s why pipes are pressure tested before be during the screed installation. Once in screed they almost never go wrong

[@judebrown4103]

@@UrbanPlumbers thank you, that's good to know! 👏Can't wait for the next installment. 😁👍

[@pumpkinhead456]

Oh you left us on a cliffhanger! I'm sure you'll do it. What brand of diverter valves do you usually go for?

[@katalinu82]

Great video!!! Have you got a link for the 32mm pipe cleaner / deburer?

[@andrewdavies7816]

Unexpected strainers can be a real nightmare. I've heard of issues with ball valves that have integrated strainers in get blocked and no-one knew they existed! Is there a way to measure the flow when you powerflush? This might help you find the blockage?

[@yusufhanmutlu]

As a fresh engineer, i am intended to educate myself at heat pumps. I like your work. I suspected the exchanger too but it seems a lazy pump slowing the flow down.

[@JWildOnes]

Im not familiar with grant heat pumps but just had a quick read on the manual (r32 grant aerona3) and saw that you can change the dip switches to change the output of the circulator, comes as default on maximum speed but worth a check if not already checked. I assume the poor flow rate is on both the heating and hot water. The pump chart shows a max of 20l/min at 12m head at speed 3 on the pump. To have rubbish flow rate on just the coil as well you would be right in thinking the plate heat exchanger on the outdoor unit. The smallest amount of debris will play havoc on flow rates, more so if it has a sika flow sensor like other brands. When refreshing the flow rate reading on those sika flow rate sensors you will notice the flow rate fluctuates by massive amounts which indicates debris within plate.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Pump on speed iii already. I have installed those units before and I used to get double the flow rate of this unit. I also tested flow just across the unit and it is definitely restricted

[@qamrulfarooqi]

Looking forward to part 2

[@SylwerDragon]

it is sad thing to see this video. Not because of results ..but because once you see real professional it is sad thing to know there are so many 'professionals' out there that they don't care or they don't know how to test system and they will just leave it as it is ..On other hand it is good there are professionals who knows what they are doing so there is still hope for some ppl :)

[@skrbek34]

Hmm nightmares 😮.. my assumption goes to DHW tank heat exchanger if it’s not stainless steel. I use to have same or similar problem with one tank coil . Or poor circulation pump. Cheers for all effort 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Flow directly through the unit is restricted.

[@skrbek34]

@@UrbanPlumbers In 2012 i had problem with blocked hex with debris from old heating system, of course without filter installed on return pipe 😂. It was a hell of job to flush the hex . Thankfully the flow switch was doing job. So this HP has flow on the limit so it doesn’t trigger the flow alarm. All kudos to you 👍🏻👍🏻 You show our job as it is with all props and “drops “

[@stephenrichards5386]

Looks a great job again

[@haydnlawrence8167]

Urban and his team are an absolute credit to the industry. Great video as always. However what was the initial installation cost of the system and what was the cost of UFH and remedial works ? 20 grand and counting for a HP system that still doesn’t work ? For people already facing a financial squeeze this makes no sense.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Don’t think we have much choice. Burning stuff is not really an option anymore.

[@haydnlawrence8167]

@@UrbanPlumbers Burning stuff , is how they produce the electricity that runs a HP . Wind and solar can’t produce the amount of energy that’s needed . Goggle disused wind and solar farms. I am totally in favour of energy efficiency.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, but is it more efficient to run a heat pump than burn gas at home. Also the grid will only get greener moving forward.

[@GlynHudson]

What a cliffhanger! Good luck with the investigation, excellent video. The Sontex heat meter display will also give you a reading of the flow/return temperature and a real-time readout of the heating power being delivered. If a heat meter was installed there's a good chance they was also an electricity sub-meter installed with the original installation. You should be able to calculate the COP of the unit in its original state by reading the kWh of heat from the heat meter and kWh of electricity. Do grant use an internal or external pump? What's the spec?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Internal 12m pump. Just found out they are ‘only’ around £220+vat so will recommend to the client we change the pump next and flush plate again, but will use some seriously strong chems and go direct to the plate

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Also, full monitoring is available in software, strangely flow can only be read on Sontex

[@simonthompson15]

Pipe work sizing is really interesting. I have seen the Heat Geek’s videos on it. One thing I don’t understand about using 35 mm pipe. Usually the heat pump have 28mm connectors (certainly that is the case for Valliant). Why does the heat pump only have 28mm connectors if 35mm pipe is needed?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

All Vailant connection are 1”1/4 so they are 35mm. Smaller heat pump connections don’t matter as pressure loss is proportional to the length of pipework - so on very short run 22mm may be fine and on a very long run the same heat pump may need 35mm It all has to be calculated and will be different on every project even on the same size heat pump.

[@bampot2241]

So you’ve upsized the primary heat pump F&R to 35mm?? But you’ve “re installed” the Grant Mag One filter?? Well it restricts the pipe size to less than 28mm in diameter?? This pipe sizing is getting out of hand now. We have 13kw heat pumps on 28mm and running bang on. We have a 26kw cascade system 2no 13kw heat pumps through a LLH split over two zones each of roughly 12kw and primary pipework sizing is 28mm to LLH and each zone off of the LLH is of 28mm with a 25/80 pump on each zone and running with ease and no complaints of heating issues 🤷🏼‍♂️ These systems people are over complicating them for what they are.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

If you want to run a system without a buffer on a heat pump circulator alone you have to go to 35mm in this case. 12kW heat loss so 28mm would have too much pressure drop for DT5. Grant filter makes little difference, pressure drop of pipe of fitting is proportional to the length of that pipe or fitting - so having that filter there is equivalent to few inches of 28mm - so pressure loss is negligee here. If you run a buffer with a system pump that’s yes you will ‘get away’ with 28mm on a 12 kW system no problem. For highest efficiency you want to avoid the buffer though Also, even on 35mm I still can’t get over 20l / min flow right now and I need around 35l / min

[@kavanobrien6547]

If you ever find yourself in Devon, pop in and you can advise me on what to get, obviously with tea scones jam and cream.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I am not good with food advice though. Drink 🍺 yes. Food not so much 😃

[@kavanobrien6547]

@@UrbanPlumbers ok, Devon plus cider, more scones for me then, I think when you see the scones jam, and clotted cream you will change your mind, will get extra just in case you change your mind. I think my home would be the easiest installation in the history of your channel, having watched your videos I think after four hour start the party.

[@johntisbury]

Great detective work and re-fitting of a poorly installed and designed system. Such a shame there are heating engineers out there fitting heat pumps to this poor standard and taking customer's money for it.

[@dorsetengineering]

I wouldn’t call them ‘heating engineers’, that implies a degree of design skill. The horse riding fitter who banged this in was just following the grant installation instructions (designed to appeal to the average jobbing plumber), probably under a grant hoovering mcs umbrella scheme.

[@im_al9274]

Weather dependant mode activated at all? Have you a way of checking head psi? R32 at 55 degrees LWT would require at least 55barg discharge psi. I didn’t hear the compressor ramp up fully and suspect a low gas charge could be holding off a pressure transducer possibly. Any backup heaters activated? Keep up the good work.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Doesn’t matter as circulating pump is fixed speed. It doesn’t modulate

[@dantheman9909]

Fit your gauges on the outdoor see what discharge pressure your getting . Work out your subcooling from your condensor. High discharge temp high subcooling would point to underperforming plate exchanger . Is there any Service settings you can access on unit to interigate the outdoor unit?

[@dorsetengineering]

Not many plumbers over here have the f-gas qualifications required to legally work on the refrigeration side. I’ve asked Symon in another comment if he has this qualification… then he could recover, remove and clean the plate, then re-gas.

[@dantheman9909]

@dorsetengineering it's mad how split the trade is the amount of this stuff we go back too that gets miss diagnosed is bad, f-gas is a minimum requirement to leak test and break the refrigerant circuit . Most fridge engineers have done an apprenticeship of some sort its a bit like us getting let loose on a boiler. A bit worrying when the likes of daikin are targeting massively and a day course seems to be all you need . I like watching this channel as he is a very good heating guy not many like this in the world .

[@dorsetengineering]

@@dantheman9909 with the air/water industry moving to r290, technically f-gas quals won’t be a requirement. Still, wouldn’t want your average plumber having a go, given the standard of training in that Industry. Most can barely understand what modulating controls are.

[@dantheman9909]

@@dorsetengineering even more dangerous being a hydrocarbon

[@dorsetengineering]

@@dantheman9909 what’s I find a bit ridiculous about the whole thing is the paranoia in the industry around half a kg of r290, in a sealed heatpump, in your garden. Yet average Joe can go and buy a gas bbq and a honking great cylinder from b&q….

[@janstaines5989]

I overheard a plumber on the train explaining to a friend that he’d had a customer who’d booked the installation of a heat pump with someone else, and how he’d lowered the flow temperature on their boiler to 40°C to test for a week “because that’s all you get from heat pumps”. They apparently phoned him back the next day asking him to raise it again because they were freezing and cancelled the heat pump booking. Perhaps that plumber was the installer of this system? 😂

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Impossible, that plumber travels on a horse 🐴

[@SolAce-nw2hf]

What a mess to correct. From a troubleshooting persective I would get an electrician to check if it is all connected to the specifications in the manual. I would also install a smart energy meter to see what's going on realtime. I don't know what type this is and what is controlling it, but sometimes a factory reset or a firmware update or reinstall does wonders for modern electronics. I assume the thermostat is calibrated and you have also tried turning it off and on again. And just maybe (however unlikely) the problem is not inside the heat pump, but a case of really bad luck with some of those pipes inside, as were moved and there was a lot going on with builders onsite. Can you do a flow test of the entire system with a pump instead of the heat pump? This will also prove to the customer that your part is working just fine. If warranty on the existing heat pump has expired, maybe just replacing it with a big Vaillant is the better choice if the customer can still claim some incentives, the newer heat pump reaches a much better SCOP and the customer can start using the property sooner.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

it si 100% blocked main heat exchanger on the heat pump. This has now been confimred and I will go back to unblock it in Sep.

[@SolAce-nw2hf]

@@UrbanPlumberswow, they really missed nothing in messing up at the time. I hope you can still save the unit without any more headaches.

[@chestercopperpot3793]

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

[@pulporock]

Gas boilers compensate for a lot of poor design choices. You do not get away with them with heat pumps. I never install such pipe sizes for that size heat pump. Rather impressive set up, my guess pump issue. Cheers from oz

[@UrbanPlumbers]

That’s what I think too. Customer is waiting for the manufacturer to fix it

[@arpa592]

I guess you don't have bypass option between flow and return (on your new 35mm line) to open up and check the flow rate then. That would point you to the right direction (heat pump or system). Good luck to find out what is the issue. I'm looking forward to learn.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

100% heat pump issue

[@arpa592]

@@UrbanPlumbers That's pretty bad. I feel sorry for the client... Obviously they paid a fortune for the system a few years back, and now... they have to do it again.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@arpa592 system was pretty much unusable

[@arpa592]

@@UrbanPlumbers Yeah, no doubt about that. Was it a DIY job originally?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@arpa592 MCS registered installer if you can belive that

[@jonjo6886]

At this very moment, half our electricity is produced by burning gas. By the time that electricity reaches your heat pump almost two thirds of the energy within the gas has gone to waste. My heat pump is off from May to the end of October so it doesn't really benefit from solar from the grid. To cap it all, offshore wind companies are pulling out from installing more turbines on the basis that the costs have risen too high for economic viability. With electricity costing four times as much as gas I can't foresee being able to run my ashp next winter.

[@derekclark7545]

I think it's going to be a new heat exchanger or if the clients flush, a new ASHP

[@mihaiachim5299]

A good plumber must have a lot of patience ;)

[@kavanobrien6547]

Curious what do you have in your home? Do you have a heat pump ?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes Vaillant Arotherm 5kw but also 10kw boiler for now

[@immers2410]

Szymon, can we have an update please? Did you find out what was causing the low flow rates?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Manufacturers are attending next week to check the unit

[@immers2410]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, it would be good to see a follow up video once it’s all finished

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It is coming. However I have to wait for the client to finish renovation, so would expect another 2-3 months before I can go back, as even with incorrect flow the system work fine, just not as good as it could be

[@barryholland8935]

Excellent plumber.

[@deanchapple1]

Thanks

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thanks you Dean!

[@deanchapple1]

@@UrbanPlumbers you’re welcome!

[@AdydeAdy21]

Hello sir,for 6kw heat pomp what size of pipe should it be?

[@jbrandona119]

Wow that installation was so bad. Feels like the property owner could have a legitimate claim or possible lawsuit against the original installers if it really had no chance of performing even close to what was promised. Not sure how that works in the UK though. Just seems like a huge waste of money for them :(

[@zteaxon7787]

Nobody has the time, energy or money for lawsuits because the justice system is a scam and a joke. Unless you are a regimist that has scammed the system for millions yourself and know those involved going to court is often worse than even just losing the money. At least that's how I see it. I haven't experienced it luckily. I have had reason to sue but didn't because I think it will just be a huge drain for little result.

[@OHYEAHGAMEVIDEOS]

This type of install has to be worth the engineers time. If they're going to spend all this time working out a tailored heating system for a specific property you can expect to be paying those heating engineers a hefty sum.

[@Medea007]

Is it fixed?

[@problem9]

Will be follow up video?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Manufacturers are changing the circulator on Fri. If that fails I will go back and try to unblock it once more next week

[@TheMakyato]

what is the circuit volume ?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

over 300L

[@DavidSmith-hz3jg]

How many grands to fix, 5?

[@mgbroadsterJ]

Crossed pipe ?

[@dorsetengineering]

I blame Grant, for making their aerona units ‘as easy to plumb and wire as a boiler’ 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ It’s a shame, as the Chofu unit isn’t terrible.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Correct, it’s all set up Chofu way now

[@dorsetengineering]

@@UrbanPlumbers have you considered doing your f-gas, then you could recover, remove and acid dip the plate heat exchanger, then re gas? The c&g qualification never runs out, and the 4-5 day course is only about £900-1k. Probably going to do mine later this year.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes I have. I am just too busy right now. I will do those f gas at some stage.

[@dorsetengineering]

@@UrbanPlumbers nice…. Gives you the option to do r32 air-air units too (because they’re amazing and everyone wants aircon nowadays 🤣)

[@k20aa]

The easy cure and the cheapest . Take out the heat pump Grant vortex external oil boiler Job done 😂😂

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Now that the system can run at 35c it would make no sense

[@k20aa]

@@UrbanPlumbers I was only kidding with you . I know you will sort it out 👍👍

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I am also kidding. Oil boiler going in next week 🤣🤣🤣

[@pumpkinhead456]

​@@UrbanPlumbers😂😂😂😂

[@k20aa]

@@UrbanPlumbers Im looking forward to the out come 👌👍👍 You always get the Nightmares 😂

[@johnridley1038]

Clearly, theres a problem with the install, but theres still the same problem after all of the work, Maybe if the "blockage problem" was fixed all this work may not have been nessercery, So lets await the next and hopefully final episode.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

sadly no heat pump, even 5kW would be able to work on the existing system. You cant push 12kW though 30 meters of 22mm pex pipe. It is just impossible.

[@johnridley1038]

Yea, I can see that. But clearly the blockage was there before, any luck with solving the problem? I dont suppose there's any history of the flow rate before you started?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@johnridley1038 system didn’t work almost at all. It could only get 12-15l / min so massive cycling killed first heat pump. It got replaced under warranty. Then in the winter the system didn’t operate well, keeping the property at 15-16c Some rads didn’t work at all, zero flow. Now there is flow everywhere but it is only 20-22l / min as original installers charged banter system into sealed, but didn’t bother to flush it. Now the hex is blocked, and if I can’t unblock it it will be a 3rd heat pump in 3 years

[@johnridley1038]

@@UrbanPlumbers Wow, Thats going to be a frustrating job getting the hex unblocked, I guess one circuit at a time? then seal it off to stop muck going into the already cleaned circuits. and see what comes out of the unclean ones. sounds like a 2 day job and video to me. Good luck.

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

An S-Plan is not the right piping configuration for a heat pump system, of that size. You need hydraulic separation.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No you don’t

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

That installation is relying on the ASHP circulator, to push the water around the index loop. Those Grant Aerona Heat Pumps, do not have that much residual circulator pump head, to play with, even at their max speed setting. That is why a common secondary pump, with two one valves, or two zone pumps (rads + UFH) are necessary, for larger homes. The Grant installation manual also shows a low loss header, and a secondary pump, for rads and underfloor heating. Maybe check out the pump curves for that model, and have a think about it.

[@michaelwilliams936]

Presumably the original installer didn't have the luxury of builders putting a slab in to hide the 35mm pipes and being able to install underfloor heating?? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is a bit misleading.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Original installer run all new pipework through the loft. The only luxury he didn’t have was understanding pipe sizing and a will to do a half decent job

[@yellowgreen5229]

Copper is a really limited resource we really need to use something else, why not use PEX?

[@TechOne7671]

Sad fir the homeowners. Cowboys will keep you in business mate.

[@BristolHeatPumps]

Another poor grant heat pump installation - we go to so many that use the magic white box and running via an S plan setup.

[@daz3745]

One day you'll get these systems for nothing because let's face it most people won't be able to afford it. When that happens it's going to be an absolute disaster. With installation teams expected to complete these in one day. It will be possible but corners will be cut.

[@alexandrosmarkakis4712]

Prime example of why this is one of the worst jobs In the world. I do this job and hate this job with a passion. I used to love it, but the better I’ve become the more I hate it. Any apprentices watching avoid at all costs and go be a spark.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

the best job ever. keeps you buys and alway learning.

[@alexandrosmarkakis4712]

@@UrbanPlumbers you are definitely very skilled, and a big attribute to the trade. But are you getting payed more to deal with these further issues? Or is the customer refusing to pay like most LLs do. Even though you couldn’t have anticipated the additional fault and clearly done your best endeavour. This job will never make anyone a millionaire. Always the average Joe with a few vans on the road. It’s best to be honest than let everyone make our mistake and live an average life in-spite of learning an exceptional skill set. Doesn’t matter how good you get, this will always happen. Love your videos, and wish you the best of luck with resolving the fault.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

The manufacturer tired to fix it last week but failed. (they replaced the pump and it didn't help). I am going next week to try to unblock the heat exchanger again or look for the fault elsewhere. The customer pays or I don't come back. A faulty heat pump wasn't in the scope of my work. The faulty system was the scope of my work.

[@eddyd8745]

Very interesting but all I see is £s flowing out of the doors and windows! Heat pumps are for wealthy people, most folk can't afford this level of engineering.

[@Swwils]

This is the heat pump equivalent of a 30kwh ideal logic

[@aaronbrown3896]

😂

[@ram64man]

Your having as much luck as my underfloor unit in the us , it has a flow of just 24m s no one could work out why , that’s why after two years I went to an air to air system two units, one doing the main living room , the other upstairs in line us style duct and defusers in. 4 rooms of the annex, get this 40mm insulation and still only 15 c 1900 sq ft 2 zones The biggest waste of money I end up using solar and off peak to charge the 250 litre cylinder twin immersion coils both 3 kwh b rated cylinder, and completely empty twice a day due to household

[@michaeldepodesta001]

Any news?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Not yet. This may take a while as the client is waiting for a warranty call out and Grant seems to be slow.

[@jonjo6886]

So long as we use gas to generate our electricity I can't see heat pumps being relevant. Take nuclear, we'll over half the heat goes to waste. In France, during this heatwave, nuclear output has to be reduced to save overheating the local environment. I like my hot water about 60°c and its useless thinking my heat pump can do that economically. Here's a big one, heat pumps fester away full time in the winter, this means they are using a lot of electricity at peak times, which is really bad! The stupid things can't economically provide high enough temperatures to use phase change technology to ease the load at pinch points. If you look at the big picture, say we put in several million heat pumps tomorrow they would HAVE to use gas generated electricity at negative CoP 2 or 3! I tried to get an ashp, 7 years use, repaired and it was going to cost in the thousands. If I'd spent the £16,000 on solar panels and battery I could have made most of my own power during the summer, then, come winter, the battery would help the Grid at peak times which would save more gas than my wretched 16kw. ashp.

[@nickbrown6457]

I'm not against heat pumps but they seem to be more problematic than a conventional gas boiler. I just think you risk creating problems for yourself by switching to a heat pump, for example the family in this video had a whole winter where they were cold. I'd rather keep my gas boiler and stay warm, even if it costs a bit more.

[@zteaxon7787]

​@@zlmdragon.It is both obviously. But simplicity and reliability, repairability IS a huge factor in a system's value. Overly complex systems are less intrinsically valuable when they can be matched in performance by less complex systems by comparison. If you can get a reliable bike with few bells and whistles that you can rely on and repair easily... The intrinsic value of having some space age all option bike goes down when the net benefit is questionable. Sometimes simplicity is just far better.

[@user-ft1cd6yj6b]

We had a new system fitted, guess what they use internal insulation The system was meant to be installed into an insulated shed. It is not and 100% cowboys 2:03

[@davidreece1642]

Name and shame the cowboys.

[@MarkoCosic]

Very well known. They're called MCS and they pretend to run a compliance scheme. ;-)

[@bakeredwards]

40mm plastic, jezz how impractical is that

[@UrbanPlumbers]

it is actually very practical, especially on longer external runs in pre-insulated twin pipes. Obviously, you can not use push fit anymore and it has to be a compression-type fitting on both ends. Plastic is really a life saver on longer runs.

[@garywright8846]

Shame you don’t name the original installer.

[@amcluesent]

Which is why nobody wants air source heat pumps.

[@VCanisMajorisY]

What happens when 20 million of these thing are installed!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Putin goes bankrupt

[@stevenmawhinney5007]

Something is telling me that pump is goosed. Doesnt matter how dirty the system is, the pump should still be strong after 3 years. These units are terrible mate, i know you wanna do a good job, but heat pumps arent the answer. 12 kw gas system boiler would be perfect for that house with no issues

[@OH2023-cj9if]

So all that expense work and you did no fault finding first. That's really bad as it is the heat pump and pump that are the issue.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I see you understood nothing from the video

[@DavidSmith-hz3jg]

So you can spend thousands on a heat pump only to find out later it costs a lot more and doesn't work. Maybe wait for better options in the future.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Well installed heat pump is the best option we ever gonna get

[@NivagSwerdna]

Spend a fortune... get a cold house.... not a great ad for the industry really. Hope it has a happy ending.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, industry is not that great at the moment

[@richardwoollaston3650]

Who would ever have a heat pump installed? They are so complex and expensive with so much more pipe work than conventional central heating, plus the ongoing maintenance issues. Without subsidies they just don’t work, and this country can’t afford subsidies for much longer.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Heat pumps are amazing when done well. Cheap to run and last for ages

[@dorsetengineering]

Much more pipework? Compared to what exactly?….. And as for the complexity, they’re considerably simpler than a combi. Connect power, turn on, hot water comes out….. A completely sealed refrigeration circuit, a built in pump, often a built in expansion….. simple as heck.

[@edc1569]

I hope the BUS can claw back the £6k grant from cowboys who install like this.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

This one was under RHI, MCS did absolutely nothing to help the client

[@Paratus7]

Heat pumps. Another big con.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Bore off

[@Paratus7]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thank you for that erudite reposte. Genius. You flogging a load of BS on the back of eco nutters thinking the word is dying is the epitome (look it up) of boring.

[@BluesonichdUk]

HP's dont work .. do not install them ! stick with gas and oil boilers .

[@jockster5525]

Quality mate