Heat Pump Retrofit In a Victorian House. Is It Even Possible?

[@MichaelATH]

Good honest guy. It’s not flowing properly, why? Cos I’m a muppet! We all make simple mistakes, nice to see you don’t hide them . As always, outstanding work.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you!

[@richardwaller7721]

I was thinking exactly the same. Just goes to show how even the most impressive professionals can make an error, but that their eye for detail helps them identify and resolve the problem. Great also to see the different choice of valves to reduce the pressure drop. I’m no expert but I really enjoy watching an great team at work to show what can be achieved in the most challenging of properties. I’ve had an ASHP installed in a smaller 1870s terraced cottage so it was really interesting to see some similar pipework issues and the importance of balancing the buffer which I’ll check with my installer.

[@And-c7n]

Less despots in the world sounds good enough to me to smash a like!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You are a legend sir

[@richardmccann9293]

Absolutely loved your little comment about why we should use less gas 🤣 My mother's house is 223 years old. We're having engineers come over to discuss options for heat pump and solar installations. House is still using the same oil boiler vented heating system that was installed when I was born, 36 years ago! Really promising to see that you're able to fit heat pumps into super old properties with no external wall insulation.

[@edvvard101]

36 years ago... that's a solid system :)

[@Glen523]

Great job, Thanks for helping us to understand these new systems a little bit more, interesting to see the homeowners experience down the line with the system in term of comfort and running cost etc. Thanks to the homeowner for sharing and to yourself for the super information.

[@ranxxerox6407]

From a person who lives in a north-South facing Mid Terrace solid wall home, with ginnel AND north facing cellar, whether switching from a gas combi-boiler to a heat pump would be beneficial, both for comfort and relative cost. I can tell you from last winter it was horrid in the front room (north facing) and thats with a higher temperature rad and gas fire. (Old houses = high celling too😞) Cant wait find out if this new heating system is better for the owner (and thanks to the owner for allowing this Video 🙂)

[@joewentworth7856]

We have a mid terrace Vic terrace with root cellar with a 7kw vaillant heatpump and it did a fantastic job through the last winter never been warmer.

[@JustFixIt99]

Just fantastic videos. I would be curious to see a more detailed video on how you do heat loss calculations.

[@MaxMakerChannel]

Thanks! Now I know about Taco Setters. Will include one when I install my heat pump. Will make troubleshooting easier.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No need on Vaillant’s though and some other units as they have build in flow sensors

[@martinlemke4440]

I like your approach for taking care about flow optimization of the whole heating system. Great job! 👍

[@deanchapple1]

Thanks

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Dean - you need to stop - I will banktupt you ;) Thank you as always mate!

[@deanchapple1]

@@UrbanPlumbers ah well it’s only a small token gesture. It’s great information for installers, so thank you. 😁🤙🏼

[@brianp7022]

Despite the controversy regarding these pumps, your workmanship is excellent

[@fredbloggs8816]

Superb! On an uninsulated property this is going to be very interesting, look forward to your revisit.

[@johnmckay1423]

I live in a 250m² Victorian detached uninsulated house. Two years ago we replaced our oil boiler with an ASHP and it works brilliantly. It would use less electricity if we insulated, but we still get a SCoP of 4 so the system runs efficiently even if the house has a high heat demand. It's all about the system design and installation - so I'm sure this one will be fine. I'm sure it's quite easy to install a system that didn't work and then moan to the Daily Fail, but they can work.

[@fredbloggs8816]

@@johnmckay1423 Thanks John, that's quite a size of house - are you tempted to reduce further by insulating?

[@johnmckay1423]

@@fredbloggs8816 At the minute I don't have any plans to insulate the (solid) walls. External isn't an option (and is incredibly expensive) as we're in a conservation area. Internal is very disruptive - once you take into account moving all electrical fittings, plumbing, skirting, coving it's a really big (and expensive) job. I've also had advice from historic building specialists who aren't convinced about sealing the house in that way. The lime mortar and plaster allows moisture through the brickwork which would then condense in the gap between the inside of the wall and the insulation board. When these houses were built, the walls weren't expected to be bone dry and you need to allow for movement of moisture or you get mould and damp damage. The payback time on solar panels to generate the extra electricity is much shorter and my house is already warm. Always open minded about new options. Our EPC recommended solid wall insulation. It would have cost twice what the ASHP installation cost and would have reduced the heat demand by about 35%. But with their recommendation of a new oil boiler it would have produced about 6 times as much CO2 as our current system and ours will get better as the grid gets more renewable.

[@trashmail8]

@@johnmckay1423 I live in a ±220m² detached and insulated house and I'm currently investigating a heat pump based solution for heating so it's very good to hear that it works brilliantly and you still get a SCoP of 4! May I ask what make/model of pump you are using? (size / kW). I fully realise that every house is different and requires a fitting solution and I've already been doing some heat transfer coefficient calculations for the house. But if it works in your situation it's another reference point for something that should work for us and something that I can hold against my calculations. Ultimately waiting for a local installer that has time (waiting lists are close to or over a single year), so I'm trying to be as best prepared as possible. :)

[@timballam3675]

@@johnmckay1423 100%

[@colinfarrell6444]

Brilliant job once again. Wish we had an engineer like you in N Ireland

[@springtown24]

There are in fact a few in NI who care as much as he does, but are hard to find and are always too busy, so you may have to put up with the rougher plumbers. Problem over here is that few are prepared to pay the cost of a good plumbing job and therefore end up with a cheap and nasty job. Believe me I have come behind quite a few poor quality plumbing jobs and have had to fix their shoddy work. It actually works out more expensive for the client in the end.

[@BriaCroTex]

Watching this i am realizing how much i don't know but again i am not heat pump specialist. I have so many questions. I just wanna say great job and whoever calculate all this is top man,

[@charliesipple701]

love the video! just a bit of advise, i've just been told by vaillant technical that having an antifreeze valve and not glycol will void the warranty! be sure to double check with them directly as i'm not convinced by was he was saying!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Who cares what Vaillant says? I don’t 🤣

[@charliesipple701]

@@UrbanPlumbers 😂😂😂 great response

[@bernardcharlesworth9860]

Nice to see a professional engineer

[@corollarijder]

I'm very curious also how this system performs over the winter. Please revisit this job👍🏻

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I am installing remote monitoring on the system this week so will be able to share that data throughout the winter.

[@markmann6964]

Loving all the detailed knowledge and methodical decision making you convey in your videos. A lot of great information proving that heat pumps, when installed properly are revolutionary. One caveat to a "victorian house" - its been extended! Commendable that you've beaten the lack of wall/floor insulation but many victorian properties just don't have the space for all this kit 😞

[@Thermoelectric7]

What was it about the existing pipework that meant you needed the buffer tank? Higher pressure drop which the heat pump couldn't handle, requiring the second pump and buffer tank? Haven't seen the buffer tanks used much so interested to learn a little more about why it was required. Awesome install though, you do some beautiful work!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

becasue of the required flow rate - the pressure loss on existing PB pipeowrk is quite conisderable, and there was a risk that without a buffer the circulator on the external unit would be able to provide 2000L / hour flow. This in turn would lower the unit effiency and output, and casue a situation in which at design temperature there wouldn't be enough power to keep the house at 21C. It would also be more expensive to run.

[@Thermoelectric7]

@@UrbanPlumbers Ahh that makes sense. Thanks for the reply. Is there a reason you wouldn't just put the second pump in series with the heatpump, and go without the buffer tank?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@Thermoelectric7 Yes - that is the worst thing one could do. First, you would still have to overcome the resistance of the heat exchanger on the external unit - using 2 pumps - this would require much more pumping power to do so. With a buffer, the system pump doesn't have to overcome the resistance of the external unit. Second - pumps do not like to be in series as they can interact in strange ways with each other. Especially if they are not fixed-speed pumps. Strangely some manufacturers were advising this method (Mitsubishi for example) - with terrible results. Generally, if you have more than one pump on a system you want to separate them by a low loss header, closed coupled T or a buffer.

[@BerkeleyTowers]

@@UrbanPlumbers There's a discussion going on in Heat Geeks where we're talking about head loss in plastic pipes. Do you have figures for equivalent pipe lengths that I can't find? The argument was, "don't use plastic because of the fittings." I get that with some but not all. Hepworth publish equivalent pipe lengths for their fittings which are identical to those for copper. The only difference then being the smaller id, size for size. I can't find anything for JG or others, do you have any?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Calculate it yourself. It’s not that difficult

[@simonruddy8265]

Fantastic work fella, what a team. I wish all installers operated at this level.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

God I love watching your stuff. I wish you were based in W Oxon so you could do an install for me! Please don't stop what you are doing. Efforts like yours are making a difference all over and many of us love you for it.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I will keep going - thank you !

[@garrywhiting8398]

Brilliant video again Szymon. It must have been disappointing to lift the first floorboard and see the mess.

[@garywright8846]

Brilliant job as always, nice pipework and a happy customer, be interesting if you can go back when it’s really cold too see how it’s performed

[@marygaleac]

My freind rented a house with a heat pump…middle of winter…couldn’t get it anywhere near 20°…..it transfers the heat back to the outside unit to protect from frost….couldn’t wait to get out….

[@garywright8846]

@@marygaleac yep, I’ve been saying this all along,when it’s cold and wet they spend a third of the time on defrost, useless.

[@ashplumb1]

Sensational mentoring once again pal. Always a joy watching your content

[@matchmade44]

Great video, and there's a lot for a renovator-developer and specifier like me to take in. What I would love to have seen too: 1. How did you do an energy assessment in order to produce your system design? We are repeatedly told "fabric first" and that renovators must install incredibly expensive External Wall Insulation systems and MVHR etc before even looking at moving from gas boilers to ASHPs - and that rendered EWI must regrettably destroy the often-gorgeous and unique Victorian/Edwardian decorative features that make British period housing so distinctive. If however renovators can do a combination of low-impact insulation and cold-bridge minimisation and well-designed and less costly ASHP-radiator-UFH systems, that would be brilliant. 2. What did this little lot cost, from energy assessment to any extra insulation to final commissioning? And why didn't your clients choose to replace all that ancient pipework under the floorboards while they had the chance? 3. How are running costs and operating efficiencies being monitored?

[@connoraxelson1]

Say its 2000 litres per minute to supply enough heat at the delta T aimed for, how do you incorporate the existing pipework sizes/restrictions in to it? Like do you say it's 5m of 15mm plastic to each upstairs rad on average, then work out what flow rate they'll get from the pump to each rad. I'm a bit lost and probably didn't word that very well 😅

[@wtsduurzaam]

After years of experience with Vaillaint, i would advice you to look into Panasonic heatpumps as well. We've installed way over 100's, and they're solid and have better SCOP/COP ratings then most others. Besides that, epic movies!

[@michaelpoulton6123]

Great video, nice to see someone who’s all about the job and not just another KZbin plumber trying to promote tools they are getting for free, how much and how long did the install take to do? Would be interested to know 👍

[@UrbanPlumbers]

5 days, plus 2 days to swap 6 rads

[@HusniAmir]

Does the external unit need to be on the ground floor? Can be installed on the roof instead?

[@davewernham5623]

Fantastic content , so why do you need a buffer tank on the Hep2o pipework ? Thanks for Great videos .

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Hep is too restrictive and much smaller bore than equivalent size copper

[@allthegearuk]

What size cupboard would you need to install a hot water cylinder say 200ltr for a family of 4? I just don't know where I could put a cylinder in my house with a gas combi.

[@arnoldmonk6381]

Another interesting job, lovely high quality work on the installation but at what cost? 5 days, three plumbers(?) plus materials, down south where everything is premium rate. We would like to replace our boiler with a heat pump but we have no indoor space for a plant room, we can have a new gas boiler installed for around £3000, with a 10 year warranty why would we go heat pump?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Cheaper to run, better comfort, much less co2 emissions, don’t support questionable regimes around the world, save the planet, add solar / battery make it even cheaper, etc…

[@Lutonman2010]

youd fit one if your primary concern is to save the planet, if youve got thousands of pounds to chuck at it and you want to virtue signal to all your neighbours about how much greener your home is compared to Sebastian and Jocasta at number 7. Basically you live in Harpenden. For everyone else, we chuck in the 3K gas swap and use all the money we save on a bloody good holiday for the next few years. Id bet a huge amount of people having these 30k installs to save the planet have a range rover sitting on the drive and jet off in summer to their apartment in Alicante. Your 3k gas boiler swap is costing you probably a couple of hundred quid a year over the lifetime of the unit. Whats this install costing over its lifetime, probably ten times that a year. When these first started to get heavily pushed, all these videos were about how youd save a fortune cos youd do away with gas, now thats been found out to be absolute nonsense due to the crackers install prices of these systems, so that argument has been quietly dropped by most youtubers and suddenly these mega installs are being sold on saving the planet. No one ever mentions that if you do away with ga after having a heat pump installed then youve got to cook with an electric hob or induction and they are generally pretty horrible to use and no way cheaper to run than a gas hob. Ive made huge energy savings in my house by simply swapping the rads to panel pluses, ditching the old honeywell 9000 controls for a nest wired with opentherm and turning the flow temp down to 50C, no need to change the boiler, upgrade any of the pipework, find an area for a buffer tank etc etc. These installs are luxury items generally installed by people with more money than sense. In the middle of a cost of living crisis ask yourself this "how many 'normal' families that you know could afford to chuck £25-30k at their heating system.

[@jtrent90]

myself and my plumber had a bit of a fuss over the anti-freeze valves. he had only installed glycol systems before and following the heat pump suppliers specs we fitted a valve on the flow and the return, which resulted in some awkward pipework behind the unit to get everything to fit. we've got a daikin altherma monoblock, it comes with an isolation valve with strainer which is fitted on the return. I've noticed in your installs it appears you only use one anti freeze valve? I'd love to be able to do so since i could just put it directly on the back of the unit (flow) and very much simplify my outdoor pipework and the nightmare of insulating it.

[@Robertkennedy316]

Would you ever consider doing a similar property heat pump install in the Republic of Ireland?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

not a great idea, you need someone to be able to resolve ptoential issues and service it near you.

[@Howt-ooo]

How much for that system and install? That's what we all need to know.

[@Heatingandplumbing1]

brilliant job, why use a separate buffer over a cylinder with a internal buffer?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Ohh man - I am not even sure where to start. Those build in buffers are usually not the best.

[@Heatingandplumbing1]

@UrbanPlumbers what you mean by not the best?

[@scottweisel3640]

When these systems start hitting the USA, I pray someone like you will be doing the training on how to install them properly.

[@sunthroughtheblinds]

Another great job. Wish I was in a house that you could fit one to rather than just a flat where I’ll be stuck with a boiler.

[@AdamDitheridge]

Beautiful work as always sir..... I tip my hat.

[@AdamDitheridge]

On a side note, you've shown the SCOP value on the Vaillant controls in previous videos... I can't seem to find them on mine. What are the button presses to navigate there? Or could mine be lower spec and not have it?

[@mikecole4952]

I like the Mut Mechana diverter valves. The NC and NO come in handy with wiring apart from the great flow rate

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I just notice that Midsummer sales them for £70 and they are CV of over 12! Great find! midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/renewable-heat-accessories/mut-meccanica-tovo-sv-3-port-valve

[@myatix1]

Love your videos and Thanks for sharing! Question: Would you use a buffer with 100% UFH ? I Would like to avoid a buffer tank. I have 2 UFH manifolds with 7 and 9 ports. Currently both manifolds have dedicated pumps that I plan to remove an hooefully run everything off the Vaillant AroTherm pump What do you think?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

you have to calcuate your heat loss first and your flow rate. Then you calcaute your index circuit and take into account pressure loss though valves and diverters though that circut. If you have enough head in the external unit pump, then you don't need a buffer and can also remove pumps on manfifolds.

[@myatix1]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for replying to my question… The mass flow rate with a dT 5 is 16 l/m. I can see that the vaillant AroTherm plus 7kW has a maximum flow rate of 20 l/m. If I use either 28mm or 35mm pipe for my main curcuit and the 22mm to each manifold do you think I need the buffer? (Should you also take into account 16mm ufh pipe?) The other alternative is to use a dT of 7 which Would drop the flow to 12l/m I hope you dont mind me asking!

[@normanboyes4983]

Another interesting video and installation.👍 In quite a few of your recent installation videos you have mentioned returning for an outcome follow up video. - I do hope you are keeping a list.😉 BTW A very good strategic message.😀

[@UrbanPlumbers]

yep - we will get to all of them once they have been running for a while or once I resolve issues. Those things can take time though.

[@normanboyes4983]

@@UrbanPlumbers Brilliant.👍

[@antoinec1066]

Interesting. I would be curious to know what was the heatloss of the house and how powerful is the heatpump. Also, how much to budget for such install?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Heat loss circa 11kW. Unit is 10kW rated at -7. I do not share the costs of installations on here, as it may give wrong expectations to people.

[@BerkeleyTowers]

@@UrbanPlumbers Love your work. The geek in me would also love to know more of the nuts and bolts of how you choose the ancillaries to match the system... buffer.. valves etc. I was fascinated by the diverter valve. Never, ever, looked beyond Honywell before!

[@antoinec1066]

@@UrbanPlumbers thank you. Perfectly understand.

[@davefish8107]

Am I the only person that thinks all the pipes and boxes outside the property are ugly Might as well live in a warehouse

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@davefish8107 yes

[@pmbpmb5416]

Have you continued to use the new diverter on bigger flow requirements, if so what make is it please ?

[@owenjones-wells9395]

We would love a heat pump. But our house is a mid terrace 1890 property with a total width of 15 ft. The back of the house is an extension with all glass bifold doors, so can't install it there. Plus no room for a water tank, hence our current combi gas boiler. If the heat pump could go in the shed at the bottom of the garden it could work, but at nearly 50ft away don't think that will work. Looks like we're staying with gas.

[@antonycollis5284]

Great video, great to see the install at the way through. 👍

[@bruceyv83]

Another interesting video, thanks. Im interested in how good the primary pipework will perform with so much of it outside. I realise you had no choice but i would assume some heat loss

[@UrbanPlumbers]

quoted heat loss art -2 and piepwork at 40C is around 10W per linear meter. We have around 18meters total, so 180 watts heat loss to the outside. At -2 unit will lose around 2% of it's output to the outside. I a quoting from memory so can be wrong by a small marign.

[@bruceyv83]

@@UrbanPlumbers not as bad as I thought. Thanks

[@meineszmf]

Can't wait for the cop results, keep up the good work, Urban Plumbers (although Urban Engineer would be a better qualification)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I am also super curious to not only the cop but also running cost, as they have 15kWh of battery storage and cheap overnight tarrif

[@stevepettifer4896]

So wish you were in my area - my heating engineer is a good guy, but seems to think heat pumps are not "man enough" for old houses (part 200 year old cob/stone, part 20 year old extension with some slightly crappy 25mm celotex type cavity insulation), despite the fact I run a 6kW flow boiler for our wet UFH, which was in place when we bought the house. As I pointed out to him, if I had a heat pump drawing as much power as the flow boiler does then I'd be living in a tropical growing house! Our annual use is no more than average really (~15,000kWh/year). There seems to be such a dearth of good, knowledgeable installers in the south west despite having loads of properties that aren't on mains gas, meaning lots of potential business over the years.

[@TimHodgesofEdinburgh]

Great video as usual. I'm currently doing my own research for replacing an ageing gas boiler next year. Working through heat loss calcs. Recently came across the rules around siting the heat pump for both avoiding planning permission but also for those pumps with R290 refrigerant such as the Vaillant aerotherm plus with restrictions about proximity to doors and windows. These might force me to an R32 based pump instead. Would be good if you could cover some of the thinking with pros and cons around refrigerant choice in one of your videos.

[@mytimetravellingdog]

Just remember air to air head based systems are much cheaper, more efficient, give you air con in the summer, way easier to install and for some reason barely ever used in the UK. Someone I vaguely know installed electric storage heaters because a water based system would be too costly to retrofit into his victorian home but didn't even look at air to air systems Why people are so obsessed with retrofitting heat pumps into water heating systems is beyond me (the govt subsidy doesn't help this). I guess it's the same reason that means loads of americans want to replace central air heating with central air heatpumps as opposed to an air to air head system.

[@cezars4155]

you make briliant videos ! for that , thanks . Question : why you don't instal split sistem ?

[@chriss4949]

Do you always build a soakaway? My proposed site for unit is right over a channel drain in the pathway.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

connect to the drain then or just ut some gravel below the unit in a reccess. It is mostly to stop condesate freezing in the winter and cause a hazard

[@desolateones]

This video alone has made me subscribe... Thanks :-)

[@cestmoi7829]

Great video - keep up the honesty and people will trust you more 👍🏻👏🏻

[@thumbnailqualityassurance7853]

Would it be possible for you in a future video to touch on balancing the flow through the radiators? More specifically, since you always size systems correctly, thermostats on the radiators are not needed. :)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I don’t even bother balancing, just don’t tell anyone.

[@thumbnailqualityassurance7853]

@@UrbanPlumbers soooo.. fully open thermostat and/or, what do you call it over there..., lockshield?

[@sniperpd9505]

A plant room! I don't have one of them in my flat. So I can't have a heat pump. Are electric combi boilers any good?

[@georgeh9967]

what is the electrical input to the pump 8 kw ?. and does that run all day or maybe 10 hrs. 10x8 +80 kw per day.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It depends on the external temperature, system design and flow temperature. It’s not a fixed input unit. Maximum rated input is 5.40kW, but this unit should never need that much, as it is designed to need around 4kW as maximum input and much lower input 95% of the time

[@georgeh9967]

@@UrbanPlumbers thanks.

[@ambrosiad1588]

why a buffer tank, does it serve the same function as a low loss header, whats the difference?

[@mihaiachim5299]

@ 5:10 what is your opinion about diverter valves from ESBE ? Eg: VRG 231 . For me they are very reliable …

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes they are great. Just expensive and hard to get at times. Tricky to set up as well.

[@lordofpower4410]

Hi great video quick question what’s the heat loss of this property m2 of building how many rads on system and what size unit. ? Just curious because I’m going to install in my own property. Thanks

[@UrbanPlumbers]

you need a full heat loss calcs done. All houses are different. This one was 11kW heat loss and I think around 180m2. The unit is 10kW on the badge but goes to around 11kW with 45c flow temp. I think the unit I chose may be around 2-3% under calculated heat loss.

[@langy1318]

what happened to the old system that you couldnt get adequate flow on???

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It is still not fixed. The owner doesnt wnat me to fix it as he is hoping the manufacturers will repiar the unit under the warranty. They are attending on Monday - so follow up video should come very soon.

[@DanEVSolar7]

Consider it liked! Well deserved too, great vid as always! 👍

[@mykeready3742]

Hi, We’ve had a grant 17kw heat pump and water tank fitted along with solar via ECO4 grant and they have to fit a Honeywell stat/controller. Can this be replaced with a Hive smart stat and controller? Not that it matters but ours is also a retro fit into a 400 yr old farm cottage.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You shouldn’t use Honeywell or HIVE at all with heat pumps! Get a new Grant smart controller fitted, will save you a fortune on running cost as compared to 3rd party controls

[@3d1e00]

Is there any reason I couldn't put a heat pump on a stand about 2 metres up? Ideally with baffles around it to direct air and sound up?

[@mgbroadsterJ]

Do you do the heat loss calcs and radiators sizing your self ?

[@OHYEAHGAMEVIDEOS]

I'm interested to see a heat pump fitted on microbore. I'm yet to see one although I keep hearing it's possible.

[@BerlietGBC]

Outstanding work as always I’m in a Victorian house and in the next few years we will be needing a boiler replacement but I have the advantage of cavity walls , I’ve really been watching your work with heat pumps to make a call witch way I should go

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Heat pump, but only if you can find a really good decent installer. What area re you in?

[@BerlietGBC]

@@UrbanPlumbers Well exactly that is the key , they still seem to have a lot of doubter and as you proved in a previous film with the badly installed unit , I'm just on the London Surrey boarder , I'm still undecided what option to take weather to go solar as I have a ideal spot for south facing vertical panels with a boiler or heat pump, I've a few years I hope before my combi will need replacing as it's not worked that hard

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@BerlietGBC you are in the area with the best installers in the country. There are 3-4 heat geek elites in London / Surrey borders, and then you also have me who covers your area.

[@BerlietGBC]

@@UrbanPlumbers Well I've been watching you work for ages , your definitely my first choice, I'm an engineer and I like the way you work

[@Captck]

I really hope the technology improves over the next 10 years to make these about a 1/4 of the size, if we're all going to be forced to have one after 2035. It depresses me to see just how much is needed in terms of tanks, pumps, new rads etc, letalone the size of the heat pump itself. I have a 1930s semi, but couldnt put it in the side alley as i wouldnt be able to get bins or bikes past it, and i dont want it facing out against the back wall as thats where i sit in the garden. The tanks would have to take up valuable room in the garage or something too. All to replace something thats the size of a standard kitchen wall cabinet. Im hoping they invent some other technology in that time, or switch to pumping hydrogen through the gas network if thats viable.

[@markrainford1219]

Or just don't vote for the government that would force that upon you.

[@edmoorebsc]

This is really interesting, we have a uninsulated single brick course property and I have always thought there is no point even considering a heat pump installation until we do some absolutely massive external insulation project. But perhaps I'm wrong.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Check my other videos. We have successfully installed heat pumps in period uninsulated properties and they all are much cheaper to run than gas.

[@paulgardner3926]

Amazing install. Would love to know the cost of the install!

[@detroitdiesel33]

Great job explaining everything so well! I want to upgrade my heatpump external pipework to 28mm copper from 22mm copper but struggling to find any decent insulation and trunking? Any reccomendations for a supplier?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Pump house for trunking or primary pro and rubber lined clips form mid wales plumbing supplies

[@detroitdiesel33]

Brillaint---many thanks @@UrbanPlumbers

[@adrianbotos2819]

Hi Szymon, as always, excellent video ! In your opinion, for a colder climate (design temp of -12C), for arotherm plus, should I use glycol, or the anti freeze valve is safe enough? All the best, Adrian

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, I wouldn’t use glycol ever

[@adrianbotos2819]

Thanks !

[@mwalke36]

Hi, did you get a chance to revisit this job? I'm really interested to see how the heat pump performs in a similar property to my own.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I have live access to the system though Vaillant Gateway. As for today the system effiency is: scop for heating 4.9 and for hot water 3.7

[@twh35]

@@UrbanPlumbers You should put the numbers up as a pinned comment or into the description, might shut up some of the return-of-investment experts in the comments, at least the ones that can read.

[@adrianhoneybill8591]

Have you fitted any Discrete Heat ThermaSkirt systems instead of radiators to ASHP systems? Any feedback?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I installed it once. It was ripped out after few weeks. Push fit origns that are not great, difficult to install, expesnive to supply and install, output is miserable so need high flow temperature - generally a bad idea, unless you want super low flor temperatures and use them as a supplemnt to UFH or radiators. I frankly do not see a point of that product.

[@andyhodchild8]

I took a lot of skirting radiators out in the 80's that had been fitted in the 60's and 70's. Everyone was glad to see the back of it.

[@adrianhoneybill8591]

@@UrbanPlumbers Interesting to see that the University of Salford have a test 'shed' with two detached houses inside. It is a technology demonstrator and has some of the national builders and heating system companies involved, including Valiant and Discrete Heat. It is a variable environment shed that can produce deep winter to summer conditions with differing humidity levels. Worth a look! It all appears to work with full monitoring. It will appeal to your analytical/engineering outlook.

[@PoohBear01]

Is it not a problem to have a sockaway so close to the house?

[@andrewsimon5437]

what type of solder are you using to make your connections ?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Whatever I find it the van 🤣

[@chrisrush9177]

Brilliant video, very informative and always good to see someone admit to making a mistake.

[@primarypro1627]

Great Video; like all the others, it is really good not just for new ones to heat pumps or older experienced ones ( every day is a learning day ) but also for end customers to see what is required and what is needed to fit an efficient system. Also, It's good for others to see you are not perfect as we all make mistakes, that's learning 👍 The team is building and learning to 👍👏👏, Thanks for the mention/support and keep up the great work and videos

[@garrywhiting8398]

Excellent point. Consumer understanding is something that will always be sadly lacking due to the culture of "it's what I pay YOU for". Pity, because a knowledgeable customer also drives up standards.

[@mytimetravellingdog]

if you are retrofitting heat pumps into a water system it will never be truly efficient. Air to air head units will always be the most efficient system (and cheaper and easier to install). It's bizarre they aren't the standard in this country.

[@garrywhiting8398]

@@mytimetravellingdog in some cases, yes they could be dreadful. On the other hand, when the gas industry has often grossly oversized some installations, it's just possible that COPs of over 4 are possible. What's inefficient about that? Additionally, there's the personal preference factor. Many people dislike the characteristics of air-to-air heating/cooling. Like many things, there's no "one size fits all" solution. Videos like these get the conversation going as well as showcasing the possibilities. Urban Plumbers (or any other Heat Geek) would be first to advise a customer of something wasn't suitable.

[@rolandrohde]

Interesting Video as usual. Just one question...why do you never (as far as I have seen) use the Unitower?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

more expensive, less flexible, and requires more space around for maintenance. I really don't like Unitowers or any other integrated equipment. It is usually easier to install at a cost of price, flexibility and more difficult maintenance.

[@rolandrohde]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks. Our installer gave us the Unitower (didn't leave us any choice really) and I am not super thrilled with it. It appears to lose quite a bit of heat over time and I am thinking of adding extra insulation.

[@myatix1]

Great video! Thanks for sharing!Do I need a buffer on a full UFH installation without rads?

[@timballam3675]

The buffer is only there to compensate for the extra pump, if your system has well sized pipework then you won't need it.

[@myatix1]

Okay! Thanks for the reply!The UFH pipe is 16mm off the manifold with 22mm flow into 2 manifolds

[@timballam3675]

@@myatix1 looks like you should be good if the other pipework is fine.

[@buildingbuddy1]

Incredible knowledge and skill you have :) The systems and components are so complicated and use so many materials that I can not help thinking that heat pumps et al. are not the solution for most people in UK as we try to just stay survivable warm and clean. To quote from a Nath Hagen podcast @ The Great Simplification. most will reach Peak Affordability way before Peak Energy. Whole countries already can't afford these tech heavy solutions. I predict they will be the answer to a very few.

[@Cha053ngine]

We're thinking about a heat pump because our oil boiler is dying. What area do you cover? Only London or would you consider a job in Cm3?

[@paulgilliland2992]

Do new builds require heat pumps?

[@garyputtock4159]

Great vid convinced me to stick with gas! 😂 That heat pump unit size is ridiculous. All the time to install the new rads etc etc no wonder the installation costs are so high.

[@TomTomicMic]

Yes, I'd like to help stop dictators to, but don't want to be ripped off by energy companies when there is only one energy supply and renewables and energy storage and the network grid are not generating enough cheap electric as yet, at present heat pumps are powered majorly by gas fired power stations, and with an existing house with no cupboard or plant room and the cost, keeping the gas boiler and spending 5k to internally insulate the external walls, but it was another good install but it really is to complicated all the stuff should be in the external unit including a separate heat pump for hot water then it's only 4 pipes coming out heating and hot water into house then split heating in house to upstairs and downstairs no plant room as it's in the big metal box outside!?!

[@markrussell9719]

Hi - What is the insulation you are using please?

[@whatamiccallit]

Why don't you use a 3 or 2 pipe set up on the buffer caleffi recommend it because it prevents mixing in the buffer

[@richardlphillips]

Interesting stuff as always 👍👏

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@richardlphillips]

@@UrbanPlumbers still on the edge of my seat for the follow up on the last video 😂

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@richardlphillips manufacturers are attending on Monday - although I do not have much hope in them repairing anything. One way or the other I should post the update to that job in the next 2 weeks.

[@richardlphillips]

@@UrbanPlumbers 🤞🤞🤞

[@Umski]

Nice job - out of curiosity what was the output of the old gas boiler? I’m guessing 20kW?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I didn’t even check. I think it might have been 18kW

[@markstrawbridge9133]

how much is the big question!

[@johntisbury]

Good update, great to hear your thoughts about the buffer and synchronising the flow rates between hot water and heating circuits.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Time will show of it can work well

[@pip1980]

​@@UrbanPlumbers They installed the same buffer (45L Vaillant) in our system. The COP is only 2.3 since installation in mid-March. The house is nice and warm on weather compensation only (heat curve 0.45) and flow temperatures when ever I check are below 35°C. I would expect COPs through the roof, but I think 3.0 was the best we had so far. Really not sure why, and they don't know either. It's 7kW Vaillant aeroTherm plus on a 85m² , 3-bedroom bungalow. Perhaps the whole thing is oversized? And/or could the buffer and distortion you mentioned a likely cause?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@pip1980 - just to let you know - this system scop on heating right now is 5.0 and 3.8 on DHW. 7kw is most likely oversized for an 85m2 bungalow. Also, it most likely does not need a buffer. That size property would be 3-4kW heat loss and could easily be run with a much smaller unit. Also with small heat loss, there is no need for 4 pipe buffers at all.

[@pip1980]

​@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks! They sent a few different engineers now and they all sort of hinted at the same thing. I hope they agree to fix it.

[@Musicalbluewolf666]

can you combine a heat pump and a gas boiler at the same time?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes you can. there is no gargantuan for it though

[@garage3022]

Love these videos. Good entertainment on a sunday!! I have two questions. I'm currently building a new house and have bought an Arotherm plus. I'm trying to decide which side of the house to put it. One side is the sunny side of the house, where the primary pipework to inside would be very short (1,5m one way). However it would be right next to my fairly narrow driveway me and my neighbors use. It would take up valuable space and there would always be a risk of someone hitting it, but it is possible. The other option is the 'cold' side of the house. The side is in the shade most of the time, and the primary pipework outside would have to be about 8 meters long one way. It would be mostly straight pipe though. This side is more convienient for space, looks and safety. My questions, which side would you choose? Is the sunny vs cold side a significant COP gain? And also, is the short vs long primary pipework a significant COP gain? Thank you and keep it up!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Put it on a shaded side. Sunny side does not give more efficiency! Also sunny side causes units to shut down on very hot days a compressors can’t operate when ambient reaches 40c, which has actually happened on one of my jobs this year.

[@garage3022]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thank you for your reply! I will put it in the shade then, its overall a nicer spot for it to be. Are you willing to comment on efficiency loss with longer primary pipework? What I want to do is well within what Vaillant allows, not worried about it at all, but curious what an expert thinks.

[@rss112]

is that a Wolves FC logo on your t-shirt? Do you also cover the west midlands area?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No it’s my company fox 🦊 logo. No I don’t cover midlands

[@rss112]

@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for the reply. We need more engineers like your self in the midlands!

[@joncarter2178]

Love your videos, helps my guys to understand heat pumps and all the myths behind them ❤

[@johndevlin980]

Excellent as always 👍

[@jsimnable]

why was the buffer needed?

[@jooie444]

He says right at the end.

[@CEverett55]

Fascinating

[@billfinn7751]

Really informative thanks

[@euanbegbie]

What’s the cost of this install? 3 or 4 of you there for 5 days, plus the equipment. 20 grand?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

2-3 for 6-7 days plus the kit was around 8k

[@euanbegbie]

Thanks for the reply !

[@michaeldepodesta001]

Hydronics in action. Brilliant. M

[@UrbanPlumbers]

This reminds me. We need to book a date in Sep to sort your hydroponics out!

[@liftfan2]

Do the neighbours complain about the fan noise?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No, you can’t hear it at all, unless you are right next to it, then you hear a faint sound of blades moving air