The TRUE Payback Time for Heat Pumps

[@DavidMartin-ym2te]

Sadly less than 50% of Scottish homes are suitable for heat pumps. Effectively installing anything built before 1970 is simply too difficult/expensive. You really need to examine the housing stock outside the southeast a little more.

[@mbak7801]

Why are they unsuitable? I live in the NE of England. Solid walls and microbore pipes. My heat pump not only works but it is little short of magical. What is so especially difficult in Scotland? I am not sure that makes sense.

[@markcross5572]

My house was all electric with storage heaters and an immersion heater using about 14500kwh. I now have an air to air heat source mini split which only struggled to heat the whole house in those -10degC. I also have a dehumidifier and have banned the tumble dryer. I now use 9500kwh per year. And have bonus cooling on those odd 35degC days. Only cost £2000 fitted. Sorted

[@justinma1743]

Is it cheaper to charge the storage heaters overnight comparing A2A heatpump?

[@markcross5572]

We are on Economy10 so 10 hours of cheap 15p and 14 hours at 35p. We just run it all the time as more convenient so some is dearer than it could be but overall it is much cheaper

[@markcross5572]

It's the best thing I have ever bought

[@mikejoseph425]

@@markcross5572I am on Octopus intelligent on 7.5p & 31p. I understand you are probably getting 8 hour off peak and I only get 6, but is there a reason why you are not on intelligent as it must be cheaper to run

[@markcross5572]

@mikejoseph425 My meter is Economy10 which has a circuit that turns the storage heater and immersion heater circuits on and off. I got stuck with British Gas when my supplier went bust and have only had some casual looks for cheaper since. I do get 10 hours on cheaper 15p and 14 hours at 35p so probably not much difference

[@PKSiAMiAM]

The first thing that needs doing is to insulate homes properly. We need to have more grants available for people to put in closed cell foam insulation. Make the homes as air tight as possible and ventilate them with HRV systems. It will be much cheaper in the long run. After we have that setup we install solar battery systems and heat pumps. We have the potential to take most of every home off grid if we do this correctly. IMHO - building regs are still not up to scratch and leave a lot to be desired.

[@gonnfishy2987]

👈🏻visionary. For instance, my draughty place would need 1/2 the energy expenditure to keep it warm, if that much even, but it’s a cheap and cheery drywall refurb of an early victorian dwelling, it turns over volumes of air per hour no matter what i seal 😮

[@fuckjewtube69]

You socialists never shutup about grants.

[@PKSiAMiAM]

@@gonnfishy2987 1 I'm not a socialist. If we didn't have to pay so damn much tax for the government doing jack all useful with it I could recommend many other things to do with the money along with lower taxes.. If using closed cell foam and other barriers properly installed it is very possible to seal any home tight. It's always easier to do when building from scratch but with all the building development regs in place it makes making homes more sustainable much more expensive and difficult. I have a friend who built himself a home which costs home £30 a year to heat! It's not hard when you apply yourself and use building technology available to us today.

[@Shutityou]

@@gonnfishy2987shame. It’s actually pretty easy to seal and insulate old Victorian homes whilst being refurbished. I’ve done it myself and the difference was amazing.

[@mbak7801]

@@fuckjewtube69 Ah you must be American. I am not socialist but take grants as it makes installs cheaper and helps me and everyone else. The entire country must get off gas as it is going to be turned off. Grants make this easier. What is fair is that everyone gets them.

[@andr0373]

I know its a little different in the UK, but in the US most people have forced air already have air conditioning (AC). Upgrading these AC configurations to heat pumps isn't very labor intensive since they swap in pretty easily with the existing AC systems. Nice to see what you're dealing with over the pond.

[@CT-vm4gf]

An air conditioner is a heat pump.

[@mapryan]

Nice idea but all air-to-air heating systems in England require planning permission, so the take-up is really low

[@DragonXDrei]

@@mapryan They don't if following certain rules. You certainly need planning permission if you want to add more than one pump. Look it up before bullring out nonsense.

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

nobody needs air con in UK , maybe for a few weeks in summer if that , this year not at all , not worth buying

[@wisenber]

@@JaneBloggs-jr9qd "nobody needs air con in UK" Until you get used to enjoying the same inside temperature and lower humidity. Heck, you really don't "need" heat. Just put on an extra sweater. Extreme temps in my areas range from 42C to -25C, which is why so many go with forced air using a gas furnace and electric AC. That, and out electric rates aren't being distorted by a shift to renewables and gas is still cheap.

[@smeggedup]

Had a heatpump fitted for a year now and very happy with it. Max bill in winter (max usage) £280 3 bed semi 100sqm 1950s house.

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

£280 for how long? the whole winter

[@DebRoo11]

​'max bill' i would assume per bill not whole winter

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

@@DebRoo11 in UK you can get billed monthly or quarrterly so its hard to assume anything

[@DebRoo11]

@@JaneBloggs-jr9qd makes sense. We only get monthly bills here in Canada so your question and response is quite valid

[@amvvol2]

assuming the £280 is maximum monthly charge ?

[@francishead8939]

Hey, agree with you on a lot of stuff regarding heat pumps. You often give balanced and nuanced responses. That said in my experience the removal of gas utility connections isn’t necessarily going to materialise as a cost saving in new builds. We had 200 homes where we were following fabric first, MVHR and all electric design that were made commercially unviable due to electrical grid reinforcement costs. So it isn’t that simple unfortunately.

[@HeatGeek]

Yes I was thinking one off build/consumers. This video wasn't really for developers making housing estates. I wouldn't have a clue about that.

[@francishead8939]

@@HeatGeek Fair. Thanks for the response. I do enjoy your videos btw!

[@timandstellajob4244]

@@francishead8939 Did those homes have solar and battery storage? That would reduce or eliminate grid reinforcement needed. I don't understand why some new homes are still being build without solar.

[@amwphotos]

For everywhere off gas you're looking at replacing oil boilers and tanks, or LPG, which are both more expensive than gas grid, and you have to have a smelly oil tank! I replaced my knackered oil boiler and tank with an ASHP, and while not a cheap move, definitely worth it.

[@briangriffiths1285]

It is often said that oil is more expensive than gas but I don't think it is if you are cute at buying in bulk at the right time of year. With no standing charge on your bill and servicing less crucial (oil boilers don't have the same risk of explosion!) I think that oil overall was cheaper than gas. But, I too swapped for an ASHP and my it is cheap to run. Since my previous comment electricity prices have jumped but I still have 6 hours a night at 7.5p a kWh which covers most of my consumption over 39 p daytime. And I have no need to keep an eye on the tank in the midst of winter when the level drops an inc or two a week.

[@markdonnelly9026]

It amazes me that people try to heat badly insulated houses. What a waste of money. Insulate your houses first and foremost. Start with the attic and then board the interior walls then worry about heating the place. In the meantime buy a good heavy tracksuit and a heavy duvet.

[@noelburke6224]

Hydrogen boilers are about emissions not cheap fuel

[@Trahloc]

@@noelburke6224 I'm honestly shocked anyone thinks hydrogen is a replacement for natural gas under any rational. One is an energy source the other is at best an energy storage method and a bad one at that. Hydrogen is dangerous with an air mix as low as 4% all the way up into the 90% and is explosive from 18% to around mid 50%. It's fine for massive infrastructure like peaker plants or even trains as they're large enough for the safety systems needed. Bringing it into your home vs a heat pump? Heck no.

[@Shutityou]

Yup. I had a freezing cold Victorian seaside house. Coats on back of bedrooms door. I lines the exterior walls with 25mm celotex and plasterboard. The final wall thickness has increased by 35mm. Made such a massive difference to warmth in winter and cool in summer. Should be the first diy fix for these old houses.

[@SprocketN]

I recently had to do a gas safety course for work, not related to domestic equipment. Where I work we have a lot of gas fired furnaces. We discussed hydrogen as an alternative to natural gas and our trainer said that the primary issue with hydrogen is containing it. Hydrogen molecules are small, so small that they can pass through many materials and jointing methods currently used to safely contain the larger molecules of natural gas. He had recently moved to this job, having previously worked as a trainer for a boiler manufacturer. He said their R&D department were struggling to make hydrogen equipment safe enough to be used in domestic environments and and so are the distribution companies.

[@WakoJacKooo]

i too have also heard this , literally any pipework hydrogen goes in has to be completely leak free,, no millibar permissable drop , period ,, and all the dodgy gas fitters out there i can guarentee explosions once a month

[@pedrolopes3542]

The funny thing is that since the 70s that companies like Mitsubishi, Itachi and many other Korean and Japanese companies have been making cool air conditioning units that are basically heat pumps that move the heat out, with a good insulation, a solar heater and a large water storage tank, it should be possible to keep the house warm during the night and recharge the hot water tank during the day (the solar heater needs to be snow free) while using the same technology that Mitsubishi has been using for 50 years, but in reverse.

[@HeatGeek]

Shame they haven't improved on them

[@vinquinn]

I have a house in Greece in an area where it gets down to 0 degrees or a little cooler. I have 3 inverter split unit AC's in the house and a small electric heater in the bathroom which is used for taking a bath. It goes over 40 degrees in the summer also. During the winter it is very comfortable 21 or 22 degrees in the house. No hassle of installation. There are many dealers and installers in Greece. Costs about 150 to install. They work very well, last a long time, and they are quiet. a unit costs between 800 and 1000 Euro. Worst case, a unit fails completely, you throw it out and get another. Plus you have great cooling in the winter. Heat pumps that heat water do not cool your house in the summer, an absolute necessity in Greece.

[@pedrolopes3542]

@@HeatGeek "they" have.

[@nickwinn7812]

Very well reasoned, we desperately, desperately need more of this kind of rational thinking if we are going to solve our current energy problems.

[@markrainford1219]

If you want to solve our energy problems then we need a new government.

[@tanja8907]

There are no energy problems. Its the wef instructing governments.

[@nickwinn7812]

@@tanja8907 LOL!

[@johnnycarson67]

If you want more carbon free energy you need SNR, small nuclear reactors. Modern designs are walk-away safe and can be up and running in 1 month.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Wrong. There is not a single SNR operating anywhere in the world.@@johnnycarson67

[@philreilly6959]

The gas pipes in my area (south Birmingham) have just been upgraded to pvc. I wasn't sure why they were doing it, given that there weren't any significant problems in the area. Do you think they could be starting to make the infrastructure hydrogen-ready?

[@HeatGeek]

It will be for that.. however we won't have hydrogen for decades or every. Its a complete waste of energy and time

[@briangriffiths1285]

@@HeatGeek Someone needs to get a grip on the hydrogen exponents, the losses are so great in production it will only ever be used for industrial processes like steel making. And I read recently that the steel produced in the trials has some improved characteristics so whilst seemingly expensive it may have qualities that make the cost very worthwhile.

[@EdthePlumber]

These new gas line are the gas network trying to ensure long term gas (likely hydrogen) uses. The argument is we got this amazing network of pipework we can’t not use it! Goverment fund hydrogen In my mind it’s just expensive conducted for the next internet cable! 😂

[@rogerphelps9939]

PVC is permeable to hydrogen.

[@Muppetkeeper]

As the genius said, I changed my gas boiler just as it was at end of life, my water tank was also leaking, and my radiators were 35 years old, and a few of them were starting to rust. I had a quote to change my gas boiler, plus move to an unvented system, and to swap 15 radiators, it all came to £9,500. So I went with a heat pump, after the grant it cost just a little more than swapping out for another gas boiler. I also have solar and batteries, so my running costs are much lower than gas. Sometime it all just works out.

[@JonnyR1981]

Really good im glad this has worked out for you.

[@gilesdavey8508]

But for most this is not the case, a simple boiler replacement is all that is required.

[@necurrence1776]

In total you paid more than you will ever save from now onwards

[@Ashnoorkgrover]

Can u recommend solar panel installation company? Im looking to do the same.

[@stevejones2310]

I was quoted £7500 with Octopus. But the house can't realistically be insulated to a level that would give me reasonable thermal comfort on a cold day...

[@malcolm8564]

Maybe I've missed something but as far as I know there is only a plan to add 20% hydrogen to the gas system so they can say it's hydrogen but actually it's almost pointless. Also although we talk about net zero 2050 there is actually no plan to anywhere near eliminate methane.

[@gonnfishy2987]

Insightful. It’s good to read the positives AND the negatives, a lot of these “initiatives” are tentative and impractical but the guv hopes it can get people enthused enough to support/pay for the initiatives when they are not really practical

[@JamesGarwood]

When you say poor heat pump installation will cost more what do you mean? How is it installed poorly? At the minute I'm putting a heat pump in my house with a small extension, upgrading from storage heaters so everything is new but I'm doing the radiators around the house and underfloor heating downstairs and I don't want to install it poorly! Thank you for all the videos on heat pumps, they have really helped me out!

[@HeatGeek]

Non accurate heat loss and radiator sizing, hydronics, system sizing, the list is endless. It’s a complex job. Your heat pump engineer will (should) know all this though. If not call a heat geek

[@radoslavtomov9121]

I would argue, that it would be better to invest in insulation first. Top priority should be to limit the amount of energy houses loose. Then most likely we would be able to get away with smaller, simplified and thus cheeper system.

[@HeatGeek]

Most properties have loft, do and wall. But there is two sides to the argument. Is it better to decarbonise or lower usage? Ofcourse both if possible

[@elaineholden6121]

Hi, Please remember that not everybody who bought a Heat Pump received a single penny from the government. I was told I would receive £5,000 towards the initial outlay. At the end of the day I was invoiced £15k+ and told I would not get any government subsidie. I know of other people who were treated the same way by the companies selling heat pumps. They turned out to be cowboys, but you dont know that until the day they install the system.

[@HeatGeek]

You should only use members of a consumer code. They sign a legal document so they cannot do this. This is not a regular occurance

[@uwuweewee]

The problem is you just saw what you saw was free money and did not do the researched, which is why you failed to qualify for the grant. You are the type of person who falls for how2crypto scams

[@clivepierce1816]

When looked at in the round the use of hydrogen for domestic heating is a non-starter. There are several reasons for this: 1) green hydrogen is enormously expensive to produce and requires vast quantities of renewable energy (note that blue hydrogen can never be zero carbon and unfortunately our government has committed billions to blue hydrogen production - a very costly mistake we are all paying for in our electricity bills); 2) the thermodynamics of hydrogen generation and distribution render it too expensive for large scale domestic heating.

[@HeatGeek]

We already did a video in this. Its the other video we meantion

[@JonnyR1981]

Fully agree on this. Small scale production of hydrogen from electrolysis and solar is possible but then you are generating electricity to produce a gas to then produce electricity or heat. Fuel cells require platinum to get any kind of decent energy. Gas is so much more dangerous then liquid fuel storage. Its molecular size cause issues leakage. There are pilot programs in Scotland 300 house ran off hydrogen. If hydrogen is ever going to work we would need mini/sub generator stations with district heating. Individual hydrogen boilers in each house in my opinion is not the way to do it.

[@adrianc101]

The government are trying to force the area I live in onto a Hydrogen trial. I’m not convinced Hydrogen for home heating is good solution. That’s why I’m looking at heat pumps, probably ground source.

[@hazmat5749]

Will hydrogen ever be viable for domestic heating? As I understand it to make green hydrogen you take electricity and split water into hydrogen and oxygen, which I have heard is only about 65% efficient. The hydrogen is then piped to homes and burnt in boilers to release heat at around 90% efficiency. So only 58% of the energy used to make the hydrogen actually gets converted to useable heat at the other end. Why not cut out hydrogen and just supply electricity directly to homes to power electric boilers or heat pumps? Assume 10% losses for the grid the still means 90% of the energy available to heat or run a heat pump. Hydrogen seems like a dead end for home heating.

[@HeatGeek]

We have a video on this check it out.

[@waqasahmed939]

Thanks for touching on the labour costs. I had a thought about that too and figured that the main reason why ground source heat pumps cost more isn't the material (though it plays a part), but its absolutely the labour which will probably go up in price I'd love it if a GSHP cost less than 10K for a vertical drop but sadly that costs 30K currently. I don't have the space for horizontal loops

[@reck0n3r]

I've read that the cost for vertical bore drilling should come down quite a bit over the next 10 years due to improvements in technology, but let's see if that actually happens.

[@dave4882]

heavily depends on location

[@DenisUlmer]

I wish there was something similar to you guys in Germany. It is impossible to find a good installer here sadly. Keep up the good work!

[@palemale2501]

Very good - except I don't think you can also deduct that final £5k in a retrofit Heat Pump for property value increase - as there is no chance to receive this money till the house is sold, and even then the new purchased house will likely also have an increased value due to its already having an installed Heat Pump. So the saving is only £10k, but only till the BUS scheme shortly lapses, when the saving drops to £5k.

[@HeatGeek]

If you don't do it, you won't have that 5k for the next house! Can't have it both ways...

[@JohnnyFD]

FYI in other countries you can buy an install a heat pump (mini split a/c and heater unit) for less than $1,000 per room.

[@residenceemerod5080]

You are talking about air/air heat pump. Air/water heat pump (which heats up radiators and UFH and sanitary hot water) is much more expensive to buy and to install.

[@scottegner306]

Can’t see us going down the ASHP route again. Had one installed in previous home. We didn’t have great expectations but were attracted by the RHI scheme and wanted rid of the oil boiler. The MCS approved installer spent a good deal of time at the property doing the calcs and sizing radiators. Pump worked fine and we were fairly happy with it (probably because we didn’t have high expectations), yet I don’t think it ever reached a cop of 200%. This was also being supplemented by a hybrid masonry wood burner. Cost 13.5k (including extra radiators). Oh and the RHI payments don’t follow you when you move home! 😮

[@donkey1271]

The cost is often easily overlooked. No point in saving 100 quid a year if you're dropping 13k on an install, at that point most homes are better off either utilizing solar and an immersion heater to use excess power or investing in the fabric of the house and reducing your energy requirements.

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

whats the point of spending so much to get low expectations? all that work should only be with high expectationbs

[@lesleycassell]

We moved in to our converted barn 9 years ago (bought from a previous owner who didn't really live in it). It has an ECODAN ASHP for underfloor heating and hot water. It is expensive to run and gives nothing back. I have turned off the heating and replaced it with 3 Everett stoves, which are really good. Although the hot water is set to 24hrs it is always cold, so we have to repeatedly use the boost button (up to 3 times) to heat water for washing up etc. I have really struggled to find anyone to offer a service, the original installers have gone. I have recently contacted a company I saw on a recommendation of our local face book page who wants £400 plus vat and extra if the glycol needs topping up. Luckily I have a gas Aga (aims programmable) which help to heat the property; gas central heating would be preferable but with the cost to convert and net zero agenda this is not a possibility. I am so frustrated!!

[@GdaySport]

The government can't even figure out that leaving the money printer switched on leads to high inflation, let alone how to keep public toilets open - needless to say I have 0.FA% faith in them figuring out how to make heat pumps affordable...

[@stevenpitera8978]

For us in Northeast USA near Boston/Rhode Island we also have a unique problem that makes the heat pumps solo heating your home not a very good idea. They increased our winter electric rates to 30 cents a kWh. But our maine/vermont cousins have very cheap electric so they didnt notice this issue (back when maine was being used as the marketing research done on heat pumps). Flipside, alot of houses in the northeast do not have AC systems (most have window ACs) so the electric cost for cooling is usually higher here. So heat pumps help cool the house more economically and efficiently than those window AC units. But what is ending up is that heat pump users don't have natural gas to fall back on, and oils prices were much worse than the heat pumps. Instead alot of us are looking into wood stoves, which are getting a 30% tax credit for any purchased in 2022-2040. So the better heating/cooling setup is to buy/cut a couple of cords of wood and manage a 2k square foot wood stove that can burn for 30+ hours after about an hour of heating up the stove waiting for the burn mechanism to engage.

[@grahambrown42]

How much has already been spent replacing iron gas pipes with yellow plastic pipes over the last few years? I constantly see pavements being dug up and yellow gas pipes being laid where I live. Can iron pipes take 20% hydrogen mixed with natural gas?

[@spyrule]

I realize this is UK, but in Canada at the moment, there is a heck of a tax being applied to gas. By getting rid of gas, I save a monthly tax/delivery cost of $100/month. My hydro bill has a delivery fee of only $25/m. My overhead cost is only $9k over a simple replacement in place. BUT, the tax on gas is going all the way up to 0.33c/M3 by 2030. So my gas cost would skyrocket over the next 7 years. I would save that $9k in about 9 years when taking into consideration the coming higher tax rate.

[@berrange]

The cost to the public of the boiler upgrade scheme, while significant, is peanuts in the bigger picture . In comparison the UK gov is estimated to have indirectly subsidized the oil and gas industry to the tune of almost £14 billion between 2016-2021, mostly through favourable taxation policies. And of course, the cost of doing nothing to mitigate climate change is essentially unmeasurably huge. I would like to see the upgrade grants biased much more towards the least well off though as they'll be suffering the most with high energy prices and can't afford an upgrade even with a 5k discount.

[@patrickwheeler2646]

Completely agree, there is actually a fair bit of investment in the reformed Green Homes Grant which is now being delivered through local authorities and the Eco4 scheme. Both programs are means tested and providing low(er) carbon heating for people who actually need the help, rather than BUS and previously RHI which although are/were elitist but still important for proving the viability.

[@mikehodgson9877]

Estimated by whom? Tax reliefs generally mean you pay less of your/the company's money to the government, it doesn't mean the government giving you cash. Since North sea oil and gas extraction started, it has paid billions to the UK government, the same (so far) cannot be said for wind and solar. Trying to make out that the oil and gas industry gets bigger subsidies than renewables is just silly. I agree completely that we should be having greater incentives for low/zero carbon energy and probably should have some form of carbon taxation, but while we still need gas and oil, it's better for both the environment and government tax revenues if we source it 'locally' rather than for example ship in LPG.

[@jimbodimbo981]

Can you explain how tax is favourable to oil companies compared to any other company? I’ve researched this and don’t see where this figure comes from.

[@johnnycarson67]

Global warming was supposed to end the world 🌎, we were told, in 1996. It didn't. At some point you have to question what the 1% are telling you and think for yourself.

[@wonton8983]

In Australia Airconditioning heat pumps are in millions of houses. Problem is open plan houses and indoor/outdoor living with kids and pets having outside doors open. Power bills have become so excessive people are afraid to turn them on.

[@gtd65]

25% higher running costs would be fantastic at this point. How bad would an ASHP install be, to get a roughly 300% increase in costs? December electricity bill was 380 quid! Another local friend, spent 387 heating her semi-detached home! When the house was heated using kerosene and without the internal wall insulation, running costs might have been a third of the ASHP with a far better level of insulation. Electricity would need to be around 7p per Kwh, if you wanted to run at the same costs from my limited experience. Even Mitsubishi advised me that in December if your electricty cost for the ASHP was less than £20 per day, you were doing very well. I was also advised that people were phoning up to complain that they were spending £50 to £60 per day on electricity. I already thought, in my case, seeing £15 per day, on the smart meter was madness. On what planet, is £600 per month, "doing well"...?

[@rafaltomaszewski5175]

I pay £680 per month only Heat Pump. KWH = 0.26 p but from 1st January 2024 it will go up above 0.35p? I want my money back.

[@gtd65]

@@rafaltomaszewski5175 that's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on heat and hot water! DO you have any ideas of the costs to heat the home before the ASHP was installed?

[@rafaltomaszewski5175]

Hi. Pump was installed in May 2021. LG THERMA V 9KW. Before we had Worcester boiler, bills between 1200-1700 annual gas, plus electricity 200-300 for 12 months. Forcast for this year 06.23 - 06.24 £8000-10,000 :(

[@gtd65]

@@rafaltomaszewski5175 I think the only way to accurately compare costs is to have a years worth of data. £8000-10,000, for a year, is insanity! What I'm seeing is much higher costs during the winter months e.g. December, January and February then dropping this month in March. If my kWh usage is less than 5000 for a year, it's going to be comparable to oil.

[@coolkiwi79]

@@rafaltomaszewski5175that is crazy - maybe have another engineer check it is set up properly, som systems are badly installed, hence the running costs. If it makes you feel better, we topped out at £52 per day on gas alone in the depths of winter! 6-bed detached Edwardian house though.

[@ciaranamhain]

Including the increase of house value is a nonsense. If you sell the house and achieve an extra 5k because of the heating system you now have to buy another house. If that house has an upgraded system you'll pay a premium for that. If it doesn't you'll have to spend to upgrade 🤔

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

what he said made no sense , anyway ten years down the line your system will be considered old fashioned and may need replacing

[@philipbroggio9315]

When considering Green Hydrogen what about the additional cost of building out additional solar and wind capacity for home heating . Hydrogen should only be used for hard to directly electrify applications.

[@davefroman4700]

Producing steel with H2 actually makes it cheaper to produce, not more expensive. And in that process you use a lot less H2 than you do with coal. Secondly their is now an option that does not use either.

[@rogeroeyen]

For a new build it surely is a no brainer, but I would not opt for an air sourced heat pump if I had the choice. For the replacement of a functioning central heating system on natural gas, the situation is completely different and I seriously doubt the validity of the reductions you mentioned. I agree with the deduction of the price difference in case you actually need to replace the existing installation, but if it is still functional this is not a valid deduction. Also the replacement of the copper cylinder is not something inherent to a every heating installation. We do not have a separate cylinder for warm water and simply do not need to replace it. I also don't understand how you can get to a deduction by moving things around or upgrading your radiators. Looks to me that this will only generate a higher cost. How about maintenance cost? A heat pump is a lot more complex than a simple gas installation, meaning that a lot of parts can break and moving parts will inherently results in wear, lubricant usage etc...... My own installation (natural gas and a HR+ condensing Junkers boiler with maintenance contract) is now 10 years old and the total maintenance and repair cost over this period comes down to 175€/year, including the mandatory inspections, repairs and replacement parts. Prior to my retirement we installed an air sourced heat pump for the heating and cooling of our office building, which had a volume of about 4 times the volume of my home and the yearly maintenance cost alone was more than 2000€ (repairs not included). I have no idea of the cost for a home installation, but if this is proportional to the volume or the output, it's an additional cost of more than 300€/year. To put this in perspective, my yearly bill for gas at home was, until last year, between 800 and 950 €/year. (Currently it's about triple and I expect that we will never see the low prices again thanks to our political leaders.) If the existing installation was properly calculated, the radiators will for certain be undersized and need to be replaced. It's even possible that you also need to replace the piping and adapt the electric wiring to cope with the new system. The value of your property is very subjective and you will only get that benefit when you sell your home. Most people do not buy or build their home with the intention to sell it and will remain in the same house for the rest of their live. If your installation is 10 years or older at the time you put your house on the market, the buyer will take in account that he will eventually need to replace it, no matter if it's on gas or a heat pump. Also the life expectancy of such an installation needs to be taken in consideration. The average life expectancy of a heat pump installation is comparable with a gas boiler, but the replacement cost is a lot higher. A high end gas boiler cost between 1200 and 2000 € while a heat pump is 3 to 4 times more expensive. Subsidies (lower in my country than in the UK) may reduce the cost of a heat pump by a few thousand €'s but it still remains way more expensive than a gas boiler. If you're forced to go for an air sourced heat pump, there is also the matter of noise. A friend of mine changed from a gas heater to a heat pump and had to move the outside unit further away from the house due to the annoying sound the thing makes and it turned out that the losses due to the longer distance were too high to heat his house properly in winter.

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

excellent comments that did not receive a response from the uploader who clearly has a dog in the fight

[@waynecharlton6388]

Great comments, my worry is there will be a lot of companies in the UK popping up installing retro fit systems in existing properties. They will promise big savings on bills and better heating. But once you have paid your money and then find out you are not getting the savings on your initial outlay these companies will be long gone with your cash.

[@sb-fj4er]

@@waynecharlton6388exactly

[@DCUPtoejuice]

why assume radiators are part of every heat pump install???

[@HeatGeek]

Because radiators are rarely sized correctly

[@jimdiet8534]

Heat from Electric is 5 times higher in the USA than natural gas. The average "delivered"(please look at your bill) per KHW is around .20. There is 29.3 KHW per 1000,000 BTU's. 1 delivered CCF is less than 1 dollar. The efficiency on a new boiler is about 83% to 92% depending on water temp. Average around 85% which works out to approximately $4.98 for electric vs 1 dollar for Natural gas.

[@HeatGeek]

I dont live there but as far as I knew It's completely state dependant. Some states have almost free electricity from hydro power

[@HeatGeek]

A quick Google says average electric is $0.166 for electricity in Oct 22 and gas is $0.046. Ad a new gas boiler is 85% efficienct you'll only need a cop of 3.

[@jimdiet8534]

@@HeatGeek They do not include delivery and taxes. 1 ccf of gas is about 100k BTU or 29.3KWH of electric. All in for gas delivered, taxes, meter charge is less than $1. Even if all in for electric is .16 as your Google says, that is 4.69 x .85= $3.98 which is 4 assuming electric was %100 converted. It's not. This is a lot of assumption on the electric side and in your scenario a $600 heating bill goes to $2400. The average in the US is 5 to 7 times higher. New York state is mandating everyone switches by 2030. This is total insanity.

[@colinvanful]

no way am i convinced ! i live in a costal location by the sea , a guy just down the road has a heat pump installed . last winter it stoped working ! the heat pump lost preasure 4 weeks without heating and they had to replace the heat pump it was 4 years old ! the installer said to him it was the worst corrosion he had ever seen in any heat pump . plus the poor bloke had heating bills twice as much as my gas boiler heated house .

[@HeatGeek]

This doesn't represent all heat pumps and all installations

[@shoyrushoyru]

living by the ocean destroys metal components due to the salt in the air

[@HeatGeek]

@@shoyrushoyru yes. That's why newer decent ones comes woth coatings to prevent this. I am not aware of how effective they are yet though as they've only been out a year or 2

[@johnnycarson67]

What he's not telling you is heat pumps become more inefficient as the temperature gets lower. Last heat pump I had would barely warm at all below freezing. AND it had to run LONGER than gas because the air coming out of the vent was 10 degrees cooler than gas heat. It had Another setting called emergency heat that went to full electric heat when the heat pump stopped. . My sister had one in her house out in the country and she said she will never have 1 again because they had to use emergency heat all the time. If it never Got below 50 maybe you could do with a heat pump. But if it gets below freezing in your area like it does mine you better have gas. Do not get a heat bump unless you want to freeze in the winter .

[@arveskjellanger4121]

Have 2 heat pumps here in Norway, get my investment back in 4 years, even if electricity is quite cheap. They last normally 10-15 years (air-air). Most houses in Norway have them, in old houses it often saves you from upgrading your electricity system since you reduce the power need by 2/3 . I will never live without my heat pumps! Also have in my EVS. Efficent way of heating an ev.

[@seancreighton6959]

The £15000 average price for a heat pump seems a little high? Where does that number come from?

[@JJKebab9]

I agree, it seems a bit hight. I know your comment is a year old, but I thought this was the best place to reply with the costs of my new heat pump. I have a 4 bedroom detached property, 10 years old. Boiler failing so I am the perfect candidate for an ASHP. Total price was £12,800. BUS grant was recently increased to £7,500. Would have had to pay around £3,000 for installation of a new boiler. So my heat pump only cost me only £2,300. Already have solar & battery so the savings will pay for it very quickly.

[@happispaces]

When comparing the costs of our refurb and retrofit of new heating system, I keep referring back to environmental benefits of going all electric with solar. But then wheat the the long term environmental impacts when all that kits eventually goes into landfill. We are looking at insulating as well as possible, installing MVHR system, infrared heaters with mixergy water boiler supported by solar panels. I am still trying to get costs from suppliers to work this out.

[@gazzooky09]

I work in the industry and Heat Pumps do have their place, I would like to know what the future hold for Terrace and Back to Back houses. Where are we going to fit an Heat Pump in a very small or none existing rear yard. Back to Backs only have a small front garden surely Hydrogen or Electric Central Heating is the only option. I would like to see some other options for these types of properties.

[@richardmccann9293]

Recent updates to Building Regs Part L in June 2023 in the UK state new boiler installations must come with a maximum flow temp of 55 degrees. This means ALL new boiler installs will likely come with upsizing rads and (in horrible case scenarios) upsizing all the primary pipework in the house :( which means new boilers no longer cost 2.5k, as flow temps for most houses are around 75 degrees. Still, I know two heating engineers who have installed new boilers since June and didn't touch the emitters or pipework, flow temp still the same as it was before. Completely illegal... might be years before it starts biting installers in the backside, but it's building regs after all.

[@OliLane]

AFAIK this is only for full replacement/new installs (i.e. when you were replacing all the pipes and radiators anyway). Had our boiler replaced recently at they left it at 80(!)

[@richardmccann9293]

@@OliLane If they replaced your whole boiler after June 2023 and left the flow rate at 80, they broke the law unfortunately for them :) of course nothing will get done about it for now, but in the years closer to 2035 I'll bet my crappy apprenticeship wages that engineers will start getting bitten in the arse for ignoring the building regs. Happened in the past with the introduction of condensing boilers, it'll happen again with this :)

[@brucemurray1517]

No Govt can force future Govt to uphold prior commitments; that is written into our legislation. Therefore the fines from Paris Agreement and COP (which were agreed in a very different world from today) are not set in stone. When people start to see the personal fuel costs, I suspect that there will be much greater scrutiny into AGW

[@wobby1516]

Your wrong about that.

[@michaelplunkett8059]

​. Just withdraw from a treaty. Announce you will still do better than China. (A new coal power plant a week.)

[@mbak7801]

There can be a commitment going forward.

[@MagicianMan]

As always I enjoy your content. I agree with a large proportion of your points. However I do have a few issues. (1) "offsetting" the cost of a heat pump into the house price increase/decrease feels a little spurious for most people. There will come a time when it factors into the decision but probably NOT until around 2035 when the law changes (assuming there isn't a U-turn). (2) Cost of installing gas to buildings, in fairness that's a valid argument however new builds should all be built with 3 phase electric supplies to be able to adequately provide the houses with bidirectional electricity supply - which will increase the cost - probably still a saving but less than £30k. (3) Third there is a huge amount of housing stock that doesn't have adequate electricity supply into the property. Either on 60A supplies or looped supply. Who will ensure that the DNO's carry out the work required in a timely manner? They still haven't completed the "smart meter" installation that was originally due to be completed by 2020 but got pushed until 2025! (4) Again housing stock issues e.g. Terraced houses, typically have limited space at the rear with electric supply to the front of the house. As far as I am aware, it is not permitted to install ASHP onto the front of many houses so where would you install them? That being the case I can see a terrible future where "Electric Boilers" are installed by those on low incomes, landlords who want to comply with regulations on the cheap and, sadly, disreputable councils (of which there are many!). (5) EPC's if you speak to the 'experts' about how an EPC is calculated its mostly a calculation based on the size of your rooms and the fabric of the building. Yes there are some % points for using LED bulbs etc but the weighting for things such as Solar PV at best move you up the scale by 1 point but they always give an estimate of the cost of doing this. I had an EPC done when selling my house it cost me £50 and the guy was present for 30 mins maybe tops (the estate agent wanted £75 and would have used the same person but charged me £25 for the pleasure). How much work doe you think is involved for £50? The biggest issue that faces the industry is the government. Doesn't matter who is in power they are only interested in monetary policy in 4 year stints of governance. Solar PV has been in place for over 25 years now and it still isn't LAW that ALL new builds should have Solar PV installed. We still have an overly complicated process with DNO's being able to charge or outright refuse to permit larger Solar PV installations and with a bigger draw on local electric distribution hubs that is likely to get worse as the phase balancing on transformers gets more difficult. Lets provide some context: The government bailed out the banks in 2008. When they sold the shares in Lloyds TSB Group they lost money on the deal. How does that work?? We should have recouped our costs at the minimum or remained shareholders until the paid dividends offset the cost to the taxpayer. Why did they permit the banks, who all took public money to keep them afloat, to continue to pay bonuses whilst they were effectively shareholders. As someone further down has mentioned we subsidize the Oil and Gas industry to the tune of billions of pounds per year, why? The rail networks have been subsidised by the public for the last 40years (or more). So why, when we are paying something like 30-40% per ticket price are we giving them money to allow them to pay bonuses to management? When COVID loans to keep them afloat were made the Scottish government chose to re-nationalise them. The English government had the exact same opportunity but instead decided to give them low or zero rate loans AND permit them to continue to "make profit" and pay bonuses in the following years. I heard on the radio today the a large number of councils across the UK have suspended Summer Holiday meal vouchers for low income families. We are talking about £15 per week per child for the lowest income families in England (Wales has maintained the payments across all regions). Some, but not all, councils are offering activities and meal groups as an alternative. How is that even permissible when inflation is up 13% and energy will have tripled in cost come October. Sorry got off topic there a little but I think you get the gist.

[@guidodezwaan]

So the conclusion is; if you dont need to upgrade your heating system and only need to replace the boiler; dont go for a heat pump as it would take >50 years to earn it back; replacing your old heat pump in the end will also cost more (1500,- in your calculation); increasing the investment time an extra 7 years. Go for it if you totally renovate your house tho.

[@HeatGeek]

Not the conclusion I drew

[@chrisracer2007]

I live in Greece and I think at least for the hotter climates the cooling function is a factor to take into consideration!

[@martinlintzgy1361]

There is no green hydrogen. Hydrogen is brown. 130 billion for hydrogen gas network upgrade is ridiculous waste of money. It would buy another 4 or 5 hinckley c size power stations.

[@MrPipvampire]

I had a government subsided hot water heat pump installed. It lasted 6 years. The tank started to leak and shortly after the heat pump failed. I contacted the installer who came out and his verdict was to buy a new one. I went for a cheap electric hot water system instead with a warranty of 10 years and Made in Australia, not China!!! I'll wait until these heat pump configurations are more robust and longer lived. Hopefully, Made in Australia where we still quality check and there is still pride in products that are made here.

[@michaelseanturner]

I love your videos and explainers. And I totally get the no panacea message. Heat pumps sound like a no brainer for the vast majority of detached and semi detached houses in the UK. But I'd like to hear what you'd recommend for a terrace house with very little garden space, or an apartment with no / shared garden? Ie nowhere sensible to put the heat pump outside. I've heard comments about community heating on your channel before but I'm not convinced that a row of terrace houses will get that without significantly more council / government help. Which doesn't seem to be a topic of discussion from either. And I'd have thought that community heating basically means someone loses their home so it can be converted into a boiler room of sorts. So we lose a terrace house on each street in a country with not enough houses?

[@HeatGeek]

All coming. Video backlog is looooonnnnggg

[@johnmckay1423]

@@HeatGeek Came to the comments to ask about terraced housing. I already have an ASHP on my detached house that I'm very happy with. Finances for me were justifiable, partly because I was motivated to stop burning stuff, partly because I was looking at a system replacement for a 40 year old oil boiler (i.e. not just the boiler) and partly because I'm getting £11k from RHI instead of the £5k grant. Calculated to more or less break even over 18 years. It'll be quicker now because electricity hasn't gone up at much as oil...

[@JonnyR1981]

@@johnmckay1423 With some of the quotes I've had back the 5k isn't even worth it. priced the full kit of parts being installed up even if I was being generous, it was 6k worth. 13k was the quote so asking 7k for labour. That was only for the pump and tank. There wasn't any radiators in that.

[@elorateq3672]

@@JonnyR1981 Same here, so I'm now concentrating my research (and limited budget) on improving the insulation and air-tightness. Trouble is there's also a lack of trained installers for internal insulation too & so far only carpenter willing to quote to install a new door & triple-glazed windows to move towards passive house standards.

[@enemyofthestatewearein7945]

Private apartment blocks will be a massive problem to get off gas. District heating makes perfect sense for this application but commercial freeholders will have no benefit, so they won't do it unless it's mandated by government. Don't be holding your breath on that happening. OTOH social landlords are starting to deliver these schemes already.

[@robertosfield]

Excellent video, but would be interesting to see an updated one for current status of heat-pumps vs gas boilers vs hydrogen and whether there is movement in the right direction from the new Labour government. From what I understand the hydrogen heating side looked largely dead on arrival even before Labour got in. Household batteries are now also much cheaper so the potential for using low cost power for running HPs is more viable.

[@TonyLeach-airguntech]

Something else noticed a few off gridders are now installing solar, battery storage, for heating they are using under floor with small induction boilers, 99%+ efficient, these warm the floor and make use of solar dump also. They are not fast, it may take a week to get a slab to temperature but once there the system seems to settle down and the demand from the system is much reduced. Have you seen similar systems, have you installed similar systems?

[@HeatGeek]

We've installed electric boilers yes. We try to avoid them because obviously we would much prefer a 350 to 500% efficient heat pump and generate on site.

[@TonyLeach-airguntech]

@@HeatGeek its more the low load on the solar and their ability to use solar dump to them, if we could get a 10A heatpump running 500% efficient maybe these would be the holy grail of heating but they all seem to take 20A+

[@HeatGeek]

@@TonyLeach-airguntech they may be rated at 20a as a max possible draw.. but the rating assumes a poor cop of say 2 and at max output. In reality 10a is extremely common at depths of winter

[@1over137]

Cheap night time energy IS NOT, repeat NOT environmentally motivated. It's purely financial. Power plants do ONE thing. They generate power. They also cost 100,000s to run daily. If they aren't generating power they are making a loss. Thus, every single operating power plant WANTS to run 24/7. So they are in the business, for profit, to encourage people to use more power at night so they can continue to operate, even if they are charging slightly less. It's still making money, were as shutting down a few dozen plants overnight and powering them back up in the morning would be far better for the environment.

[@JeremyCobb]

Question. Are condensing boilers treated as preferential to air source heat pumps when calculating an Epc rating? Had a customer tell me he is being punished because he has a ASHP.

[@protectiongeek]

Hi Adam, thanks for another excellent video. I wondered if any of your clients have chosen to install air-to-air ASHP systems for space heating AND cooling? Climate changes seem to suggest that cooling is going to be an increasing requirement in homes over the coming years.

[@HeatGeek]

Yes it's more and more common. Slightly less comfort though

[@stephengale1715]

Air to air is the main HP is the main choice for heatiing in new Zealand, even in the high country which has quite extreme winters. Works very well, can be ducted so different rooms/spaces have different temperatures, and in a country where many things are expensive due to low volume and importing many things, these arent too expensive. I have been thinking that the UK is a bit hnng up on radiator central heating because that is the installed base, however acknowledge that ducts may be difficult in install in UK housing.

[@mentality-monster]

@@stephengale1715 Mini splits remove the need for ducting. Most of our housing stock are tiny little hovels by global standards, so the pipes don't need to run far..

[@4nrgy]

C'mon 9kw heat pump monoblock(easy to install) is abt 2000£ and you don't need to change anything in your installation. It's bogus claims. Install it as it is maybe buffer abt 200dm3 and you good to go. Total about 4000-5000£. Easy

[@robhills9769]

Good presentation of the costs associated with heat pumps to the consumer, the government and the planet. I am already signed up for a Heat Geek assured heat pump installation and in order to get the BUS grant had to have a new EPC done to reflect recent cavity wall insulation and upgraded loft insulation. In the video you say that property values will be increased partly due to a resulting EPC improvement. My EPC assessor told me NOT to get a new EPC done after the installation because a heat pump will make the EPC score worse!

[@HeatGeek]

He's correct but that's being renewed right now. Also, once it's done the new homeowner may value the upgrade more than the scorw

[@robhills9769]

@@HeatGeek I don't have plans to sell anytime soon but it shows how uncoordinated the government is with providing grant money on one hand and an out of date EPC scoring system, that favours the gas industry over renewables, on the other.

[@HeatGeek]

@Rob Hills the problem isn't just heating. Technology now moves faster than policiy and law. . That's the problem! Deep stuff for Xmas eve eve! Xx ;😜

[@geoffmansfield2668]

Leave money in bank, or add value to our house for the kids to inherit? Asked six estate agents about adding PV, batteries or ASHP. All six said “these improvements will NOT change the selling price of the property”! P.S. they also said most people don’t even look at the EPC.

[@AlanPeery]

​@@geoffmansfield2668Those six agents simply haven't figured out that they need to make it part of the pitch.

[@BakersShaker]

The problem isn't having more government help (paid for by us) its the way the installers are fleecing the system. The government should have created set prices for what they can charge for a heat pump when getting a grant as if they increase the grant the installer just increase the price. Charging 15k for what is 5k in material is ridiculous. One day to spec system, one day labour for install and profit should not be 10K!

[@av_oid]

I was looking at a Sanden, then a read the reviews on product reviews and there are a huge number of people having control board/electrical failures and Sanden blaming them on “power surges” with no evidence. Sounds more likely to be poor design or poor component selection as it’s wide spread. If Sanden’s warranty on the controller was longer or they covered was appears a design failure I’d consider them. If a Sanden costs 1.5k+ more than a similar size budget heat pump, then that’s longer before it pays itself off, if it doesn’t fail first.

[@arniet1]

I have a Daikin Altherma EDLQ-CV3 air source heat pump, and I'm confused. I have the heating and water on 24/7 but don't need to use much water every day. So, i set my water reheat to 46°c, next morning it was at 62°c. My room temp is at 18°c overnight and 19°c during day. Why is the water getting so hot?

[@29close]

Great video, but some inaccuracies in the information about the gas grid. Local distribution network is largely plasti and pipes in homes are copper. Both are good for hydrogen. Also, the local electricity network WILL need upgrading if every home in the street moves to a heat pump. Decarbonising existing homes is one of the most difficult challenges to achieving net zero, so it’s great to see a sensible debate on the subject!

[@malinka511km]

Hi, I'm just wondering why can't get BUS grant for old badly installed EAHP? They are not as efficient as ASHP.

[@pooatpauls10]

I had a heat pump installed on an annexe at my home and it’s been an utter disaster. The firm installing it no longer exists, we have had so many issues with failures on it, it’s unbelievable and the only ‘engineer’ we can get to visit is over 100miles away from us. It’s been in just shy of 5 years, in the summer we had the third complete unit put in, as it was not viable to repair it, thankfully the first replacement was under warranty, the latest one we had to buy again, 3700 quid! It’s meant to run an area previously heated successfully by our then gas boiler via 3 admittedly large double rads, and a bathroom electric towel radiator. The main house is heated still by gas boiler running 14 rads. The annexe now has underfloor, whole job was over 20k back in 2018, and in the current sub zero temps, the annexe is too cool to be 100% comfortable in. We’re so disappointed in it, I am sure technology has moved on in 5 years, but it’s been so expensive, so unreliable and at current electric prices, hideously expensive to run too in this very cold weather. I’m sure we have a poorly designed system and have had our leg lifted, but that’s part of the issue. It’s new tech and so few know much about it, so it difficult to get reliable info on it. I’ve been a user of heat pumps for 15 years, our last house had a ground source pump for the house and air source for a summer outdoor pool too. The ground source worked well but we had a lot of land to use and house ran very well on it. But the modern air source seem to be more of a ‘punt’ to me, I’m sure they work on modern new builds pretty well, but on a 70s stone built house with suspended floors and naff all insulation…? I can’t see 15k going too far when floors have to come up, kitchens taken out, new floor coverings, doors and thresholds if the floor height increases to get underfloor in etc etc. Could be 30k plus pretty easily. Great video btw, well put together and presented, as they all are. 👍

[@HeatGeek]

Everything you are saying is because you had a crap and expensive installer I'm sorry to say.

[@pooatpauls10]

@@HeatGeek well apart from the having to replace the units part as your own video mentions this is often the most viable option vs repair. There’s so few engineers able or willing to work on these devices, increasing lead times when there’s a breakdown, and hence easier to just change. Fwiw I don’t think the ‘install’ of the underfloor heating etc is too bad, but think it could have been better. The pump unit itself has been a mare though! It just doesn’t seem effective in colder months. Last year it was noticeably better in winter than we’ve had so far in Nov and Dec, although it was off for half of December due to breakdown, sadly. Installing it on the annexe, with existing screed floors not suspended wooden, seemed a good idea to try it out and learn about it prior to changing over in the main house. I just cannot see the tech working in our main house, with anything vaguely normal price wise. We’re possibly not far off even with our current rads as we hear with a flow temp of 60 degrees even in this cold snap, but I’m not looking forward to swapping over tbh. In fact, I can see us having a new gas boiler at some point before finally having to bite the bullet and swap to a pump. Hopefully some of the install, spec and reliability issues will be sorted by then and it’ll be more viable.

[@andrewgalloway9766]

repayment times of 25 years (your shortest projection is crazy ) I'm 57 and probably won't live that long, over the years I have replaced / removed many heat pumps with most not lasting 10 years some under 6/7years real running costs in my customers homes, yes I have a heating business too with average 20 staff and 35 year's experience, were over 30% more with many people who are installing now also having to pay from 10 to 30,000 for insulation required for almost 75% of our housing stock without which very few homes can be heated to the temperatures we are used to with the HPs. I admire your attempt to inform but even manufactures that I talk to state at present people will see a running cost increase of 20 to 25% against a condensing gas boiler doing the same job and they are on the conservative side. as for cost in future replacements boiler straight swap 2,000 ish needs replaced in 20 years hp 4,000ish but replaced twice in 20 years so yet another 6000 on top of original conversion costs region 15000 not taking into account most homes with a good electric shower and induction hob are already being fitted with switch gear to prevent both being on at once due to domestic property electricity supplies new upgraded supplies required again for our existing housing stock it will take more than 13 years to up the power generation for future car charging let alone this this is a major factor in the use of hydrogen boilers running alongside gas till 2050 at least according to the power suppliers.

[@tonystanley5337]

Heat pumps are also too expensive and ineffective, to be use widespread. Resistive is actually much cheaper to install and only a little worse in the cold winter where were use 80% of our heating energy. Geothermal district heating would probably work for cities. The first thing is insulation of course, why we are not throwing money at that makes no sense. My last 2 rented homes had empty cavities and minimal roof insulation, as well as exceptional drafts, all fixable of course. I think the main thing to concentrate on is draft proofing and to setup a test requirement like that used for new build and passive houses, maybe include MHRV. Setting that up and forcing the testing will eventually cause the draft proofers and insulators to improve their skill.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Resistive is insanely expensive.

[@tonystanley5337]

@@rogerphelps9939Its not, a resistive heater cost 10s of $/£ . A heat pump running at a COP of 1 cost the same to run.

[@rogerphelps9939]

It does. But a properly designed and installed heat pump should never get that low. The lowest my heat pump has ever been is 2.9 and most of the time it is around 4. It is an inverter driven ground source unit which helps though.@@tonystanley5337

[@AlanPeery]

Excellent bit on the upcoming costs from carbon charges if we don't act in a concerted fashion.

[@michaeld5888]

I see myself never getting out of my largish house too large for my needs. Apart from the normal horrors of entering in to the chain of people selling and buying a house it would need to be certified green and probably the electrics are not up to modern standards. The cost of modernising it is just too prohibitive and I am sure a raft of certificates are required now meaning a lot of money outlay. 25 year paybacks far exceed my life expectancy especially considering the disappearing medical care available as the NHS withers away. These grand plans the government has really are unfundable by both the general public and the government itself. The government already taxes us to the hilt with services being continually downsized so where it all goes is a mystery. We are now having to pay for our green waste collection. The inexorable closing down of public transport whilst a green agenda is promoted beggars belief; 1 in 4 services have disappeared in a decade. I am afraid the mention of climate change means hitting the mute button as you can only absorb the same message repeated endlessly so many times. I would say every man for themselves nowadays as thing become seriously threatening. It is a matter of concern if civilisation will actually survive the end of fossil fuel with all the hairbrained flaky schemes around at the moment..

[@wonton8983]

Reality, well said.

[@MattyFreedom]

Great to see some people haven’t been brainwashed into insanity. This video made me despair at how ready and willing some people seem to accept utter lunacy.

[@pingu99991]

Where do air to air heat pumps sit in this? Me and my partner are buying our first home. It's a bungalow that has storage heaters and an immersion tank. Installation costs for hydronic radiators don't make sense compared to wall AC units (that can heat too), plus I think that the SCOPs are higher because you're only transferring that energy from refrigerant to air rather than adding water as an intermediary stage where losses can accumulate. I know that not all properties will be like mine, but a significant number are like this. It would make sense to open up the BUS for air to air heat pumps - and you get the benefit of air conditioning at the same time (I have MS which is a health condition made worse with heat so this is a great upside for me - many disabled people are in a similar situation and I believe there's scope for separate incentives to provide disabled people with air conditioning and heating at the same time). Domestic hot water heating is still an issue - I wish there was a heat pump cylinder system that could be connected to the same outdoor unit as the room heating units, but you can get stand alone heat pump water cylinders that are relatively cheap. I've gotten quotes for both kinds of system and found this split air to air/water cylinder system will be cheaper for us to install even without the BUS scheme.

[@nickwinn7812]

You need to insulate your home first. Insulation will keep you cooler in the summer as wel as warmer in the winter. Going down the aircon route is madness. As for domestic hot water, you could provide most of this with a solar thermal system and top up in the winter with an immersion heater. You could look at so called Hydrodynamic hot water cylinders (which are a small air to water heat pump actually built into the storage cylinder) but I believe these to be a con if they are inside the heated space of the house itself.

[@pingu99991]

@@nickwinn7812 We are insulating but even if we didn't we'd still see savings on energy anywhere from 2/3rds to 3/4ths because air conditioning **is a heat pump** (they work in reverse to produce heat in the home when needed and can receive really high SCOPs). If it takes 9000kw of electricity to heat our space right now with resistive heating - it'll be around 3000kw of electricity with a heat pump. I've run the numbers/received quotes and it's cheaper for me to install air conditioning than a hydronic system in my situation. It's a property that's never had a wet system. There are no radiators or pipes for them, just electric storage heaters. AC is generally simpler to install and has the benefit of cooling which for me with my heat sensitive medical condition is really useful. What makes it madness to pursue this if it is cheaper and provides more benefit? We are looking at those heat pump water heater cylinders - you don't need to have them operate within the conditioned envelope of the house, most of them have standard sized fittings for air vents so you can run an input and output vent to circulate air from outside through the unit so you're not using the hot air you've created inside the house to heat water. The main issue I have with them is that they take up more space than the existing immersion tank. I think Sunamp is working on a similar product but using their heat battery which is promising as it would be much more space efficient. Hopefully it comes to market before we get around to replacing our cylinder.

[@mikejoseph425]

I am beginning to wander if modern night storage heaters are a better solution in conjunction with Solar, batteries and off peak tariff

[@Subgunman]

Only in the USA are people getting ripped off with the costs of buying split air heat pumps. The inverter heat pumps start at around 400€ and sometimes cheaper when on sale for an average 9000 BTU heat pump for one size average bedroom. With an autonomous home automation system you can have control of each room in your home with infrared transmitters sending commands to the heat pump. Add solar to your home and you could power them with little or no power from the grid.

[@rsnorris]

Is it even possible to get time of day tariff at the moment?

[@HeatGeek]

Things will stabilise

[@tbthegr81]

When comparing costs I was expecting to see something like "And if you already planned on adding an aircon, that price can be deducted from the heatpump installation, since modern heatpumps pumps heats in both directions"

[@uksupporter8867]

It’s ok saying heat pumps can be charged up over night on cheaper electric but when everyone does that the overnight price will go up , so make heat pumps more expensive, like the government asking us to not cook etc until 8pm , but want us to have electric cars, most people plug their cars in when they get home so around 6pm

[@telwood15]

If like us in our 70's with not much disposable income then heat pumps are not a consideration the extra cost of running our gas boiler is not an issue, but in all other instances the Heat Geeks advice is worth considering.

[@langy1318]

Insulate the f#%k out of your house and totally reduce the cost of heating your house whatever heating method you use in a nutshell!

[@flower-ss2jt]

Your arguments make sense, if, and ONLY if, there was sufficient manufacturing capacity for retro-fits on all houses AND there were enough engineers to carry out the retrofitting?

[@justinwhite2725]

Where i am elecrticity just means coal and natural gas. (No hydro and our westher doesnt really make solar and wind viable) Im curious whether the conversion from natural gas to electricity to run heat pumps is actually more efficient than just burning natural gas 4:28 hail makes solar unviable where i live.

[@naratipmath]

Increasing EPC with a heat pump will increase property value?? I don't actually think so. There are people (especially those with 2 or 3 kids) who are not a big fan of heat pump, worrying about its insufficient supply in the winter. Also, a heat pump works best in the south-facing garden. As far as I know, the heat pump will have to be at least 1 (or even 2 m) away from the boundary and should not be under the shade as well. So, it is not recommended to install it on the side unless you got a detached house with a big empty space at the side (how many of that kind of house in UK?). Now, if you plan to extend the house to the garden space in the future, it is not a good idea to install the heat pump . It means you have to pay for its installation again when doing extension!!! So, if you buy a small house that is not extended but have a heat pump, it won't increase the value of the property! Also, if you think about building a pergola or deck attached to the back-wall of the house, then the heat pump will get in a way (that thing is huge)!!!

[@BenIsInSweden]

In terms of the UK, it makes no difference which way the wall they are put on is facing, and doesn't matter if shaded or not, there is a case for hotter climates for AC, where the sun exposure could take it from below to above its operating temperature, but again UK doesn't get hot enough for that, and these generally aren't used for cooling so wouldn't matter. Not sure where you've gotten that idea from?

[@1over137]

The detonation ratios of hydrogen in air are frighteningly wide and while it does skyrocket and disappears eventually into space.... in a confined space it does not take much hydrogen to get trapped to create a small bomb. Literally.

[@0princeluck]

Just had our home insulated, heat pump and solar panels install, fully funded under ECO scheme. I first thought it was a con but definitely not so worth anyone chasing this up! We live in 3 bedroom house with 2 children any energy usage during the day is cover by 2.8 kw solar panels and our electricity usage reduce by 40%. It even works on a cloudy day. We use to have a bulk LPG with combi boiler and to reduce the usage we reducing flow temperature and water flow. I set this at 36 and water get very hot due to water rate being reduced. I hope this tip will help someone out there. Ps we need to see more of you on mainstream media to help people reduce their energy bill.

[@uksupporter8867]

But how much is on your energy bills to cover the cost of the purchase, basically you have made no savings

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

@@uksupporter8867 fully funded by who?

[@JonathanFunkhouseMonkhouse]

After the BUS grant my installation/upgrade cost is going to be £700 by Octopus. I’m swapping out a ~40 year old gas boiler. My ROI will be about 3 years I think. Woop!

[@stefanhorn6780]

great video, i have recently installed soalr and battery and am considering heat pump, my current gas boiler is still going dtrong 26 years old, regularly serviced, my question is can ASHP work with a pressurised hot water cylinder as that is what we have so need for 'electric' power showers

[@user-uq7io2os3r]

And sadly all what your local MP will do is to ignore it..and keep focusing on filing its own purse 😕

[@inderveerjohal7218]

Where would one go to get someone to come and look at your house to assess the insulation situation.

[@HeatGeek]

Type 'find a heat geek' in google

[@lindaj5492]

You seem to be saying that installing a heat pump also requires installing new radiators?

[@martinrivers1667]

Would the running saving cost of heat pump v oil be greater than heat pump v gas?

[@geoffhaylock6848]

All the energy used by cars and all the energy in gas for cooking and heating can be put onto our existing electrical grid with no upgrades. I can't be the only one that thinks we are heading for some huge electrical bills to upgrade the national grid.

[@arpadvarga3475]

Octopus gave me a quote I would have to pay only 3000£...not convinced... especially not sure would work in my home 😔 I have 3.2 kWh solar with 6.5 kWh battery already but it does absolutely minimum at winter time.

[@thelouiebrand]

The worst thing I added to my new home build was a heat pump. It costs a FORTUNE to run in the winter. Mr cool 4-5 ton.

[@caterthun4853]

Please mention replacing oil boilers which there are many in rural areas

[@justinwhite2725]

8:58 why do hest pumps need to be repaired every year? Because they are outside?

[@RKC3.14]

Super useful. What id like to learn about is the steps needed toward a heat pump install. My house is a converted barn / stables. The boiler is ok for now but will need replacing in 5yrs or so. Im upgrading parts of the house myself which means insulating as we go. But what else does heat pump ready mean? What rad upgrades are needed? Can I use the existing pipes? A video on how to prepare for a future heat pump install would be super useful. Or at least how to not make a future install harder.

[@HeatGeek]

All done for you! Look at the consumer series.. answers all these qs

[@marklea2395]

I’ve got that same problem, 3 foot thick granite walls with no thermal bridging. I can only add insulation to the ceilings. Also a converted Barn so was never designed to be lived in. There are also no heat geeks Installers in my area (Cornwall) Current quotes are saying it will be a 2k running cost. We have no mains gas and are using oil central heating. Is a heat pump going to work on my property, my current EPC is 60 with a max potential of 79 It seems a similar cost to our current oil prices?

[@susancolours1835]

Hi we have a new build (two years old ) house. Under flooring heating down stairs. Radiators upstairs . The house is gas heated now . Would it mean renewing all this to install a heat pump?

[@EdthePlumber]

Not the under floor. Possibly the rads, but maybe not even! Try running the heating at 40° on the boiler and you would get a rough idea if it could would

[@philippemaria8678]

The part with lifetime is totally wrong: a good quality gaz boiler , well maintain, can last 30 to 40 years. A heatpump has big chance to be dead in 10 to 15 years due to Electronics

[@AndyKennedy]

What an excellent honest video. Well executed, engaging, branding on point and every point well made and backed up perfectly. Some serious efforts clearly gone into this. Well done heat geek 👏

[@grahambrown42]

So normally if you have a gas central heating system, you will need radiators to be upgraded?

[@HeatGeek]

Typically 1 or 2 max with newer r290 units.

[@HeatGeek]

We also gave a video on if you need new rads or not

[@JonnyR1981]

Radiator on newbuilds are usually oversized as they are standardised for cost not performance otherwise different rooms with different window sizes floor area and height wall buildings etc would be different sizes. For arguments sake your house calculation come out needing a 6kw heat pump your getting a 7kw as they typically come in 3.5 5 7 10 12

[@Geyer128]

Would it better to use a water tank for storing hot water and use that to heat the home instead of an battery to run the heat pump?

[@robhills9769]

That's an interesting idea but only if the heat pump has the capacity to create the water store. Heating the hot water directly bypasses the COP benefit of the heat pump.

[@Geyer128]

@@robhills9769 some heat pumps are PV compatible, they can communicate with the PV system. So the heat pump will run it the energy is available/cheap. That will cost only a bit of the cop, because is heater to a higher temperature as normally needed. The heating of the house will run over that tank and not directly over the heat pump. Maby puffer tank has a different name or so.

[@robhills9769]

@@Geyer128I think it's unlikely that you would have spare PV generated electricity if running a heat pump 24/7 in winter but it would certainly pay to direct any to heating the DHW before exporting it to the grid. I still think it should be used to heat the water through the heat pump not using an immersion or backup heater.

[@wobby1516]

I’ve Solar panels and a Powerwall I’ve also fitted two air conditioners that heat in the winter however they tend to be a bit noisy so I don’t want them in my living room or bedrooms. My house is a 9 year old newish build that’s piped with microbore, as is most new builds now days. I don’t want the upheaval of re-piping the house to a small bore system. I was looking at replacing the gas boiler with an electric boiler but would prefer a combination of heat pump and electric boiler that could raise the flow temperature to match the gas system. Hot water isn’t a problem as it’s either from solar via a diverter, myenergi Eddi, or is heated over night on OctopusEnergy’s cheap tariff. What I need is an air source heat pump with built in electric boost, if there is such a thing. I don’t want to fit a buffer tank as space is limited, however if I had to I would. Helpful advice would be most welcome.

[@jamesw5584]

Based on 15500Kwh heating requirement a heat pump at £0.65 kwh electricity costs with an SCOP of 2.2 would cost £6200.00 a year to run (15500 / 2.2 = 6889Kwh * £0.65). For oil at currently £0.90 per litre with 10.35kwh per litre (around £0.09 kwh) and assuming a condenser boiler at 93% efficient (15500+7% = 16600Kwh) would cost £1494. I am confused how installing a heat pump saves money? The £0.65 is what I pay now because I signed up for a tariff in case the gov does nothing about energy prices (edf tariff). So based on this projected energy cost from suppliers for the next year heat pumps are out of the window unless u got a solar farm.

[@HeatGeek]

Why inly a 2.2 scop? It's against mcs to install a heat pump with lower scop than 2.8 but even that's crap. Ide expect at least 3.5 up to 5. Your very unlikely to get and average of 93% efficiency throughout the year.. 90 maybe

[@HeatGeek]

Also oil won't be that cheap forever and electricity will comedown once its unlinked from gas

[@jamesw5584]

@@HeatGeek Even with an scop of 4.5 (£2240) it is still cheaper to use oil and oil is not cheap. I just bought 500 litres it cost me 450, it was 264 last year. The cost of electricity will be tied to gas for some time since a lot of our power stations (32) use gas compared to 8 which are nuclear. Only 45% of energy is renewable, all of which are affected by the current weather and wholesale price. If you look at the whole picture considering £18k installation fee - £5k grant at £13k that combined with the running costs then its a very expensive investment. Equal to 14 years worth of oil heating based on the quoted installation cost alone. Ashp would be great if electricity was cheap, it could be years before we see that again sadly. And of course if carbon energy prices drop then so will oil so the price remains linkes at present.

[@HeatGeek]

@@jamesw5584 not for long

[@jamesw5584]

@@HeatGeek We don't know that. Forecasts are for at least next 2 years. There is no doubt that ASHP would be the ideal solution but that is not the case at present. Unless u can generate ur own electricity. Consider if you could take the £0.09 kwh of heating oil convert it to electricity and power ur ASHP with a COP of 4 then your heating would be less than £400 a year. Even if ur genny was only 50% efficient still be less than £1k a year. Crazy times.

[@uksupporter8867]

If I looked at a house without a heat pump it will not stop me buying it, why would it, EPC are basically pointless , also if a person looks at your house and says oh no heat pump, just deduct the cost don’t waste your money with no recuperation in fitting it, also heat pumps do not work near the coast.oh and my gas boiler service cost cost £60 no where near what you claim