Helluva Boss is So Endlessly Confused

[@thefourpeas7345]

“And Millie! ….. She’s moxxie’s wife.” Oh lord the pain in this sentence being true

[@redguyslave409]

She's so underdeveloped

[@oblue0033]

Wanna know something funny? The staff made real-life accounts for the characters on Instagram, orginal art and everything, and even had art streams where they pretended to be the characters. There was no voice acting though, it was mostly them talking in chat. Even Hazbin characters like angel and the 3 V's made frequent appearances in the stream and would occasionally post a blue moon. That being said, I want you to take a wild guess on who got the short end of the stick.

[@andrewgreeb916]

She's so much of a flat character you could honestly put a cardboard cut-out there and nobody could tell otherwise.

[@MLH_1231]

She has two personality traits: "grr murder" and "i peg Moxxie"

[@redguyslave409]

@@MLH_1231 SO TRUE 😭

[@pastelbba3175]

I do wish that they didn’t have a old relationship back when they were kids. Now it just looks like one of those weird wattpad story

[@grimp_9]

Yeah. Like, they were only 10 YEARS OLD.

[@Jaylikesfnaf]

Also Like the my boyfriends dad bought me and then I fell in love with him 😭

[@grimp_9]

@@Jaylikesfnaf bruuhhh. Seriously, does that exist?

[@pastelbba3175]

@@Jaylikesfnaf trueee

[@pastelbba3175]

@Sandpaper Plates I mean it’s not about being gay but the fact that they had to have an old relationship.. I wish that wasn’t the case so then it would have really looked like a one night stand but now it just looks like blitzo pity f*cked stolas

[@Gotsyn]

I was expecting this series to focus on them killing humans and being hitmen. You know, that’s like the whole premise of the show

[@surprisedchar2458]

Same.

[@wessullivan-nq2yz]

Stolas was originally going to hire I.M.P for hits, but that was canceled for what we got

[@killpeoplewithhammersbrutally1]

that wouldve made the “core” relationship of stolitz alot more stable imo.@@wessullivan-nq2yz

[@tothekookyfellas]

@@wessullivan-nq2yz yeah apparently stolas was originally supposed to be a villain of sorts, but Viv decided that he and Blitzo would make a cute couple so it became this

[@Saissem]

​@@wessullivan-nq2yzSo did we miss an interesting plot for a fanfic? damn that explains a lot.

[@hannahstarinieri1351]

Every time I’ve seen someone complain about the world building and characters, someone else comments that they have to watch a vivzie livestream to understand. I should not have to watch a live stream to understand a tv show.

[@bigseven8227]

Agreed. "Show, don't tell" is very important.

[@impolybius1482]

this is so real. i literally would not know jack shit about this show’s worldbuilding if not for vivziepop making long and extremely defensive twitter threads every time a new episode drops. from a regular viewer’s perspective who doesn’t engage with the fandom, this show just makes absolutely no sense.

[@lexyshannon9428]

I do think the defensiness is somewhat of a cop-out for poor writing. However, I do get the feeling that Vivzie has a lot on her plate right now. It kind of feels like she's been juggling the studio deal for Hazbin and the production of Helluva WITH the establishment of her company at the same time. I think a lot of this could just be due to inexperience. Granted, it's not an excuse, either. I think it might just be an explanation for some of the more "rushed" plot points and scattered writing that we see in the show. A lot of people likely aren't on the same page behind the scenes (To clarify: this is not me trying to defend bad writing, just theorizing on what might be behind it all)

[@Gen_-6012]

Omg yes like one thing I really don’t understand is why are imps able to die if they are in hell? Like what would come after the litteral after life?

[@bigseven8227]

@@Gen_-6012 Yeah, what's the point of a hell and heaven if you can still die (and presumably disappear forever). There might as well be no afterlife

[@sadandalonearemysafewords2740]

I really wish Viv would give Millie her own episode

[@limeyell0w945]

Yess I really like millie but it feels like she's barely done anything :/

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

Even the farm episode wasn't about her

[@Walnarut]

i don't like millie that much, but i think that's just cuz we haven't seen much of her besides of her relationship with moxxie. i wanna see her get an episode too, so we could see what she's like on her own.

[@Nightman221k]

The female characters are sort of stuck as relations to the male ones. That’s how it’s been up to this point.

[@barginbinbrody1809]

Yeah

[@archnebula]

I feel like writers also have forgotten that as much as Stolas was forced into the relationship, so was Stella too. Both of them were kids who were in their developing age and they just found out "Hey, YOU ARE BEING FORCED INTO MARRIGE AND YOU MUST HAVE A CHILD" and a Stella, as a child with rage issues would of course, react to such news with anger. Of course, Stella was shown as a bucket of Anger issues but there was a picture of them in season 1 ep 2 were three of them enojyed their time in the park, and their child was smiling and enojying it too.

[@no-one...186]

IKR?! It's so confusing. Don't tell me they really wanted to victimise Stolas so bad just becuz Stolitz is Viv's die hard ship

[@archnebula]

@@no-one...186 Probably, i think epizode 7 was really good but seasom 2 ep 1 did not stick with me

[@archnebula]

@@no-one...186 especially stolas and blitz beimg childhood friends

[@chansfeet2500]

I'd also assume that Stella's parents were possibly more neglectful than Paimon was to Stolas. That alone can cause many anger issues in a child. Now imagine you're a child who doesn't get love or attention from your parents, so you act out violently hoping to gain attention. Instead of gaining attention, you get married off to some guy you don't know. I'd be pretty furious too! I feel like this would also explain why Stella has so many guests over at the "Not Divorced" party, because she has been neglected and seeks to fill that hole by gaining the attention of others. Abusing Stolas could be the aftermath of her never learning how to express frustration in a non violent way. When he cheats, once again the attention is off of her and onto someone else. So on so forth. She's still abusive, but it's a little less one note and has an actual explanation. I tried. Edit: Just remembered Andre exists. So yeah, perhaps her parents also favored him, which can also spark the jealousy, anger and neglect issues.

[@Goikuchan]

You're acting like The Circus was the last episode of Helluva Boss. Oh wait, it was the FIRST one! Seriously, there's still plenty of time for more background story. We're definitely getting more of this once her older brother Andrealphus makes his debut in the show. And did you actually pay attention to the dialogue? They were never happy. They pretended being happy for Octavia's sake. Something parents who hate eachothers guts are actually willing to do for their child. Plus, Stella wasn't smiling in that picture in their kitchen. She's frowning. Take a goood look at it.

[@Flugel_Halogen]

I want a episode where vortex gives loona a reality check and points out how badly she treats her boss/adoptive dad and her coworkers. Given what we’ve seen of how hellhounds are treated like pets or physical labor works or body guards She’s so incredibly lucky to be in a position where she can pretty much do and say whatever she wants without any real consequences and punishment and all she has to do is be a receptionist for a few hours and treat blitzo with some kindness and gratitude for giving her all this with no strings attached other than her job

[@elsal1353]

She shouldn't have to be grateful for being treated like a normal person, but I get your point.

[@Zeagods-CyberShadow]

Yeah that would actually be a really good thing to see

[@Jay-gurl]

Amen! I SOOO want someone to give Loona a harsh reality check because I hate the way her actions and personality don't match. Blitzo might be overbearing but "his trying" as YOU said Loona. Show some damage gratitude!

[@mray4784]

@@elsal1353 She really should because they're in hell.

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Basically Quagmire on Brian rant. And yes. I did see the comic HB version.

[@TheLaurelCrown]

"Stop adding characters" This aged poorly, as of now the latest episode (S2E05) introduced Blitzo's drug addict sister

[@beepybopbap]

Tbh the sister could be a fun plot driven character but in the episode shes introduced she's barely given any fucking time, which grinds my gears a bit

[@RandomRedditAnecdotes]

​@@beepybopbapfr

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

​@@beepybopbapdon't forget she was introduced in the same episode that was supposed to be Millie's episode.

[@beepybopbap]

@kittykittybangbang9367 mhm. Which in turns puts the attention off millie, I just wish instead it could've been a episode of millie getting a break going back to her family and having a good time,

[@TheLaurelCrown]

@@beepybopbap I wish it could've been just a normal "hit" episode like the first one

[@crwmother1576]

Millie needs characterization, wether it be an episode about her or literally anything else. Moxxie always becomes a damsel in distress if something happens to him and millie has to save him. Stolas and Stella are a much more grey dynamic, they cant be executed as black and white. Both of them were forced into a marriage at young age. Of course stella would have anger issues, Stolas isnt an angel in this situation. He also isnt a good father to Octavia. Most of the episodes about their relationship contain Stolas going Oogly over blitø. Somebody needs to snap loona to reality. Had blitzø not adopted her she would’ve been treated as a pet and also as absolute garbage. Also why is half the casts trauma just daddy issues??

[@johnypeperwinkle6207]

Same with Loona, hell Moxxie has had the same cowardly arc for every episode he's been the focus of

[@crwmother1576]

@John Pepper exactly! It honestly made me so mad

[@samflood5631]

At least Millie doesn’t have daddy issues. The only thing I want from Millie is some god damn character focus episodes.

[@MLH_1231]

The biggest issue I have with Stolitz is how when Stolas saw Blitzø sneak into his house to steal the book, his first thought was "he wants to dominate me", like what💀

[@taylorpatterson8845]

Thirsty

[@bags.]

It's pretty clearly a joke because the second Blitz reciprocates at all he freaks out. It might be what he wants but it's pretty clearly an attempt at a silly joke.

[@MLH_1231]

@@bags. yeah ik it was a joke, my comments just poking fun at it because it sorta felt rushed if that makes sense? like, it felt like they didn't know how to start the whole fwb thing so they just went with stolas instantly being horny towards Blitzø

[@Megapixel8063]

Honestly I think that was one of the funniest jokes in the show

[@NintendoMeister2260]

He was drunk but still if someone were to break into my house I wouldn't be like. "So, what are you into?"

[@nightgarla]

i cant help but notice that every woman character (4 in total) is entirely written around a man, like loona with blitzo, via and stella with stolas, and millie with moxxie, and most of them dont really have defined characters outside of those relationships with those men like idk i just find that a little weird

[@frogglen6350]

better a man and woman over being 41%

[@Birdyboys]

@@frogglen6350 calm down edgelord

[@Ergonomicsdesk]

@@frogglen6350 yeah, cause bringing trans suicide into unrelated topics is so funny, or whatever you’re trying to do

[@samflood5631]

The female characters of this show are poorly mishandled like the ones in Naruto, My Hero Academia, Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy 15 and 16.

[@sandracarnegie2871]

Viv literally said this was a male focused show and Hazbin will be female focused.

[@becuaseimbored3481]

I think so many people were in denial about stella because even making her the slightest bit sympathetic (and actually upset with stolas because he cheated) would have made that scene at Ozzies infinitely better. Because instead of him being just made fun of by Asmodeous it's stolas being confronted with the consequences of his actions. Which would have been wonderful back when stolas was a posh horn-dog who recklessly lusted after blitzo. I feel like that's the issue with the premire of season 2. It took away all the edge and complexity and moral nuance for something infinitely less compelling. It's as if fanon became canon.

[@Jdudec367]

But nothing changes with her. I mean he was confronted with it. Stolas still can be that though, people have called him out and he is intentionally flawed. It didn't take away any of that though, Stella was abusive since season 1 and Stolas cheating still negatively affected his own daughter, what we have now isn't any less compelling. It isn't like that at all.

[@greenisthedevilscolor784]

@@Jdudec367 It's just that the way it was handled is very unsatisfying and full of wasted potential. Take the Ozzie scene OP was referring to: Ozzie says "you had it _all_ (and you gave it up)". And Stolas did have it all: money, power, status, a seemingly perfect nuclear family. All of which he "chose" to throw away by indulging in a scandalous affair with an imp (implying a tarnished reputation in the higher ranks of Hell can absolutely ruin your life). The stakes are incredibly high here. Stolas chose his own repressed desires over his family and reputation, and now the whole underworld is gonna know. ...Except we don't really see any major consequence to this. There's no paparazzi, no headlines plastered over every gossip magazine in Hell, no powerful families cutting ties with the Goetias because of the drama. So what exactly did he "give up"? All we see is the divorce being prepared and Stella being all too happy to have a reason to abuse Stolas more, because...??? She just hates him that much? There's no woman trapped in a loveless marriage having to deal with the shame her husband cast on their family. No wife feeling betrayed that her husband cheated on her. No shallow aristocrat who'd been faking a perfect marriage for the sake of appearances, angry that their dirty laundry got aired (SHE was the one badmouthing Stolas at parties). No greedy royal worried about losing the ability to stay in power through her only heiress if Octavia gets taken away in the divorce. No nuance, no complexity, again and again. The tagline is Stella is just a major B that gets sadistic joy out of torturing Stolas, so you shouldn't feel bad about him cheating.

[@Jdudec367]

@@greenisthedevilscolor784 It isn't unsatisfying or full of wasted potential. Again though...it was already clear that Stella was already abusive though, Stolas even hints at this in episode 2 saying to Octavia "You need to understand... your mother and I... I just-... I felt-... She's always been... I haven't been- Ha-... We weren't in... I'm sorry, I- I- I don't have the words." Nothing really changed with Stella as a person. True. We do, Stolas is more infamous now and there was paparazzi. He gave up his reputation and made his family life more strained. There is but Stella already hated him to begin with. She did hate him even more for that though. She is still a shallow aristocrat though. She is a greedy royal though who wants more power. There is some nuance and complexity. Except it hurt Octavia so you should still feel bad about him cheating.

[@TheGeekRex]

It would make sense for her to hate Stolas because in her eyes, he basically robbed her of her perfect princess fantasy life. She expected to run off with her prince and have a family and live happily ever after, only for him to crush that dream by coming out. Even though it's not really his fault she ended up with him, she takes it out on him. She can still be a bad person and abusive towards him, but it would give her some amount of justification for being angry, and would give Stolas even more reason to be a conflicted character. Maybe on some level he does regret everything that happened, wonders if he should have kept his mouth shut just to keep the peace. Making Stella an evil monster with no motive really is the laziest and least interesting option, and only serves to eliminate an interesting roadblock and character flaws.

[@HunterStiles651]

@@greenisthedevilscolor784 Now that we have the additional context of Queen Bee, OOPS, and Mammon's Mid-Season Special, I think it's safe to say that the reason the gossip mongers didn't care about Stolas's affair is because it's an open secret that demonic royalty fucking peasants is such a common occurrence that it's not newsworthy.

[@Meryem-bo1yu]

Let's be honest here, Loona only exists to sell merchandise. She's the Disney animal sidekick of the series.

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

If you checked out vivziepop's channel and go on to the community tab, you can see a ton of merchandise and a lot of them feature loona.

[@RprSonic]

*cough*

[@Passenger1308]

Fr, she didn’t even have a single line of dialogue in the new episode lol

[@kingdingaling6516]

@@Passenger1308 Which is sad. Hopefully we'll get an episode solely focusing on her daily life outside of I.M.P

[@EngineerRiff]

I’ve only seen the pilot, and I absolutely agree

[@starlightsoiree]

I'm ngl, watching from the outside, the whole 'Stella being a bitch' thing seems very 'the woman is getting in the way of my gay ship, let's make her unlikable so we can make excuses' rather than. Actual character development lol

[@phantom13313]

If Vivziepopo was so desperate to make them a couple, why Stella has to exist tho- I'm not saying she couldn't be an actual bitch, but it's all about the way she writes the show that nothing really seems to blend well

[@starlightsoiree]

@phantom13313 yea exactly- if a character makes sense to be a dickhead then whatever, but she has done no legwork to make it appear as anything other than 'we always made her an irredeemable monster so we can have stolas and blitzo raw on the toilet' or whatecer

[@justysiastrzelczyk8212]

Vivziepop is a gay ship addict lol she will do everything to make her gay ship come true with no good reason she is like that one countryhumans shipper like WTF

[@phantom13313]

@@justysiastrzelczyk8212 Well, i don't really care about the gay ships, but if they are bad and poorly written, then that's the problem

[@starlightsoiree]

@@phantom13313 big agree. Tho cis women fetishizing mlm relationships is a tale as old as time.

[@frankielovejoy9928]

The best way to describe Helluva Boss is the same way I read someone describing Miraculous Ladybug: It's a dumpster fire that I know I shouldn't be standing in front of and yet I can't look away from it. The show has enough mayhem going on that allows you to turn off your brain enough to enjoy it, but once you start thinking about it, it becomes problematic.

[@frankielovejoy9928]

@e92312 It was. For a while. But lately, the internet reaction to the more recent seasons and writing decisions has not been a kind one.

[@Caliefart]

I feel like stella only exists to make you feel bad for stolas and make it seem like he's just an innocent uwu boy who need blitzo to save him. Any time stella is on screen she is talking about or to stolas like c'mon

[@poumybeloved]

I wish we seen his emotional side as a caring dad and sweet lover, not like you described.

[@fmor2779]

Stolas could be a compelling character, but the show excuses him so much it feels like they are willing to sacrifice coherence and continuity, two VERY IMPORTANT elements of a story, to convince you Stolas is a well intentioned father. I honestly, I don't understand why they have to shield him so much. They say "Stella is not one dimensional" but literally all her existence is written around Stolas, kind of like Millie is at this point with Moxxie with the obvious difference.

[@Jdudec367]

Stella also exists to be a evil villian, and Stolas does not seem like that at all as he is very powerful and is still evil to a degree. Not every time.

[@fmor2779]

@@Jdudec367 That is another thing that is weird. Why they put Stolas in the position of abused when HE in fact is supposedly this evil powerful demon prince. Stella is so one dimensional she has no demonic obligations and she has already produced an heir, why would Stolas want her around for 17 years if she is as bad as presented in "The Circus". For Octavia? (We haven´t seen ANY interaction with Stella and Octavia, so convenient) If Stella is so openly and unapologetically abusive towards Stolas how can Octavia say "her parents didn't hated each other" in "Loo Loo Land" What is Stolas so afraid of this woman who is not even inspired in a demon of her own unlike him? Is he afraid Octavia won't love him is he kills her? How? Shouldn't Octavia be afraid of Stella? What is Stolas waiting? He could even cover the murder, but no, he has to be "nice" (Some evil demonic prince he is...) Contradiction after another contradiction.

[@Jdudec367]

@@fmor2779 He is a compelling character, they are not sacrificing coherence and continuity though, well he was always a well intentioned father but that doesn't mean he is always a good one. They are not shielding him, they are just giving him depth. Not really, she is just selfish in general, it is just now Stolas is a big thorn in her side ever since he cheated on her with an imp.

[@DarkSeraph]

Blitzo and Stolas' relationship is basically "I fucked around and caught feelings." but it's so poorly executed I can't deal with it.

[@BBWahoo]

He also caught STD's, heyo.

[@BBWahoo]

@estefanyg9419 Seethe, beyotch.

[@thegames4565]

3 replies and they're all hidden damn thats crazy

[@Cinderfella_Productions]

@@thegames4565 Yeah, they are hidden for me too

[@Hee.Soo_Nadia395]

Personally,I dislike this couple cause just what you said there

[@cosmicoryx5947]

This show has such a huge problem with its female characters. They are constantly being used as nothing but props for the male characters without getting any development as individuals but we're supposed to think its ok because they occasionally get a cool girlboss fight sequence which is apparently a suitable substitute for having any thought put into their writing

[@justice8718]

It’s kinda weird to consider that the canonically sexist Adam respects his girls better than the woman behind Helluva Boss.

[@edwinve4112]

@@justice8718 Context?

[@justice8718]

@@edwinve4112 Adam got leaked,

[@vaclavsoukup7302]

@@justice8718 Whose Adam? The Biblical one or a new character?

[@justice8718]

@@vaclavsoukup7302 bible adam is the new character

[@TheRealMamaTattletail]

We Don't Hate The Show, We Want It To Just Be BETTER

[@Stratoblast]

You took the words right out of my comment

[@enegizedadam]

If the series ever goes mainstream maybe someone else will takeover the writing duties and will show his version of the characters, world building etc. I have some ideas but it will be a long list.

[@whyl0ser91]

​@@enegizedadam OooOOOoo I wanna hear! I didn't care how long it is 😎

[@mokodo813]

Yeah, Helluva Boss has a lot of potential, it just needs a few tweaks.

[@fmor2779]

One thing that I see, is the people who give constructive criticism are the first people who actually just want this series to succeed. But, unfortunately, by giving a peek to the comments in different platforms, neither the author nor the show runners want to address the plot wholes nor the plot conveniences that cause the majority of continuity discrepancies and incoherence in the behavior of characters. Which is so...well, disappointing.

[@ariannabotti2434]

helluvaboss pilot: fast-paced, funny, genuine feeling of being a spin-off series the rest of helluvaboss: wattpad angst fanfics

[@mundaneMannequin]

I love your comment so much

[@fmor2779]

It's always a bad sign when a show becomes a shipping fanfiction of itself. I miss episodes like "Murder Family", not like they have many episodes like that, but it seemed to respect the format they initially intended to have with the Pilot. I am not saying they shouldn't tell us their characters stories, just keep a consistent format and a coherent story. Oh, and stop giving Stolas the literal plot armor...it's annoying at this point.

[@Jdudec367]

It is not wattpad angst fanfic at all.

[@buttholesurfer3213]

It should have stayed episodic

[@enegizedadam]

​@@Jdudec367 season 1 isn't season 2 definitely is

[@leavemealone802]

My main problem with all of Vivz shows are how she only revealed or tell about important world building and plot points, at live streams and social midias, and expect everyone to accept it as good writing No Vivianne, that is not good writing, is you being lazy Let's be honest, just like miraculous, the shipping is the only thing holding this show together

[@Black_Konoha]

Miraculous is actually pretty entertaining BECAUSE of how trash it is. Helluva boss is not. Don’t disrespect Miraculous like that ever again

[@yungmuney5903]

@@Black_Konoha cringe take

[@hubertberrum6242]

and not really in a well way

[@unknown_raven975]

I'm scared that the show is suffering from svfoe syndrome, forgetting the the story and focus on ships instead (and also changing the whole story for ship)

[@leavemealone802]

@@unknown_raven975 oh yeah, it seens like it.

[@punkysnarks]

Helluva Boss is yet another victim of what I call Adventure Time Syndrome: A cartoon starts off as episodic fun, then in its later seasons suddenly shifts into drama and action with very little levity. The big problem is wheras most shows get Adventure Time Syndrome after a few _seasons,_ Helluva Boss got it after a few _episodes._ Which makes this sudden Bitzolas stuff an even bigger trainwreck. Hell, when was the last time I.M.P. was even shown _doing a job for a client?_

[@skyxclouds3765]

At leats Adventure Time worked because it already had "dark stuff" since the beggining (like that war no one talked about), its just was ignored until later seasons.

[@orbboom6119]

AT was good at least

[@redpanda6497]

AT did it right. But not all series can do it that well.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

I think what the word you are looking for is "Cerebus Syndrome" where a story started off as lighthearted and comedic, but as the story progress things become more dramatic and darker. However, I can see the same pattern as any modern animated shows. However, Hazbin Hotel is even more obvious that the story started to get more serious within a few minutes of the pilot.

[@Turtle22312]

Give Adventure time some credit, at least it worked.

[@sodasoda6424]

the only reason they made Stella a villain was because they wanted people to "forgive" stolas for being a cheater

[@yaniaso]

Not disagreeing with you or defending the show but wasn't she already bad from the beginning?

[@gabrielgonsales2702]

​@@yaniaso Not at all, of course she hired a assassin in EP 5 but before this she was in her reason to be piss off and for what looks like in the loo loo land she was frustated, after all stolas cheat on her. So in Season 1 doesnt looks that she was always evil

[@yaniaso]

@@gabrielgonsales2702 It's just that in "The Circus", when Paimon said Stolas was engaged, he showed a picture of her and she was like choking her dogs i think, but i may be wrong tho

[@ibraahimdureng7482]

@@gabrielgonsales2702 Have you seen season 2 episode 1 cause that really destroys your argument

[@kronika1210]

Before he even met blitz agien she was belittleing him and being toxic towards him

[@TheDoremi40]

I'm really glad people are beginning to post videos criticizing the writing. I've had issues with it since the first real episode to be honest, but at the time it was such an ambitious project that it just felt... wrong to say anything negative about it. But now that the show has hit its stride and settled onto the site, people are more willing to look critically at it, and I hope this criticism helps the writers improve from their mistakes.

[@CyberdustStudios]

Yes. I like the fact that we are now getting a grey area when it comes to Vivienne's content since we've really only had a love it (white), or hate it (black) scenario. But I will say the hate is really towards Vivienne herself and not the actual show (most of the time), since they keep bringing up shit in the past that she has addressed multiple times. 😒 So it's great to see people making valid criticisms about this show without using that other shit.

[@moniker4008]

The writing for the series is sorta anthology based with minor references here and there which does work but because of how the shows development goes its safe to say the writing is 6 or rough 7 out of 10 in terms of how the episode is. Unfortunately because of Viv being the center of controversy from disgruntled people who see her as an object to make controversy over this has made perception of the show a bit sour. The show itself is fine with a semi chaotic writing structure for each episode but still manages to convey a message and story and considering this is technically an indi project it's actually really impressive it manages to do that

[@kawaiielephant7772]

I'm happy we're getting valid criticism from fans too and not just angry rants about how the show is bad because Vivziepop is bad and then case closed with no real arguments

[@Birdyboys]

@@kawaiielephant7772no offense but people HAVE been making those more critical opinions since the show began. It seems like everyone in these thread is just pretending they never existed

[@YouAreStillNotablaze]

@@moniker4008 man your description of the show is kind of how I always wanted to relate it.

[@alilishaa8824]

The only reason Stolas x Blitzo is highly praised and loved is because more than half of the fandom are hormonal teenagers that don't understand about two-sided toxic relationships. As long as it's gay and hot, they'll ship them..

[@grimp_9]

OMG, so true

[@juggftw4868]

Also we dont get gay representation in most media, so that’s exemplified even further because we’re desperate

[@grimp_9]

@@juggftw4868 That is the most sincere confession of a Helluva fan... I think Although... They don't have "enough" representation in media? As far as I know, currently (at least) there's a LOT of representation in media. Not very good ones though. And as Coranort said, that's not an excuse dude, wtf?

[@MekuChanAnime]

@@juggftw4868 Dude, there are tons of better representation out there right now, so that ain't even a excuse anymore

[@unemployedcalico]

Basically 13 y.o fujoshi

[@yopierre3013]

It’s kinda funny how Viv’s writing hasn’t really changed in the last 10 years. Cuz the same types of issues here can also apply to her 2012 webcomic.

[@alieneko_nyo]

the thing is that she never took critisism well.. so she ignores it and pretends she's cool and perfect

[@magma_fire_bagwan]

@@alieneko_nyo BINGO

[@brgirl4493]

@@alieneko_nyo And the worst part is the fans agrees with her

[@alieneko_nyo]

@@brgirl4493 always with the "it was her first comic" "it was her first pilot" "it is her first show" SHUT THE HELL UP

[@BeedleTheImmortal]

@@alieneko_nyo I hope someone else on the team will help change things, like u can tell theres so much love put into this show and in a way Viv's arrogance is putting it down

[@mfroggy1819]

One thing that's very confusing for me about helluva boss is how there's no clear way on how morality is decided. Yes, I know they are demons and they live in hell but what makes a character bad when the protagonists/other side characters also do bad stuff too. Like for example in the recent ep of season 2 (spoilers btw) everyone in the fanbase is all like "omg Crimson is such a psychopath, he kills people omg)" when we've seen Blitzo, Moxxie, and especially Millie kill people and other demons so it's like, how would we separate good characters and bad characters

[@billcipher8645]

I don't think there's supposed to be a seperation. It's protagonists vs antagonists, both are fucked up. Them killing whole hoardes of humans is fucked up. Crimson forcing his son to kill a rando is fucked up. All are just different flavours of fucked up

[@apenasmaisumdiogo.7115]

I totally agree, I thought it was really uncomfortable how episode 3 had I.M.P. kill dozens of innocent people because of a parking spot and still expected the audience to root for them. I have no problem with villain antagonists, the problem is trying to make them sympathetic and relatable instead of leaning into it for humor, like what Villainous did. At least in episode 1 they killed in self-defense and their target was completely unsympathetic, but this just isn't there anymore in the third episode. Besides, if they make every single character an idiotic jerk so the audience doesn't feel bad about following a group of murderers, than why making the protagonists assassins in the first place?

[@alexcat6685]

​@@apenasmaisumdiogo.7115basically they're a combination that isn't like questioned on their actions, Like wouldn't hell or someone above realise that a ton of people were killed, for not many justified reasons.(since we don't know what they did to deserve any of it) The world building flaws go on and on and on. Its alot of work keep right but man does it really become worth it.

[@Jimmy-xe5jd]

God the whole “they’re demons they’re in hell they’re bad people” argument pisses me off so much. Because EVERY time it’s brought up it’s in response to the characterization issues that plague the show. It’s just such a lazy way to handwave any criticism. Stella suddenly being 1000 times angrier and more hateful? Eh, they’re in hell of course they’re bad people!

[@lina9183]

Isn't it obvious,You'll know there the bad guy because there homophobic, and they threaten the main casts gay ships,in all seriousness I'm not even joking that's something I've noticed in helluva boss,everyone is crappy but there only heinously evil when there homophobic, or threatening their favorite character.

[@Mars-dw2zc]

vivzie has had this overambition problem for her entire career. her past projects all have 3 billion characters and plotlines that keep piling up until she loses interest and drops the whole series. in the past it was webcomics, which she worked on alone and could easily abandon. i wonder if she'll actually finish these shows since so many other ppl are roped into them

[@BBWahoo]

Were her webcomics more consistent? I don't know anything else that can keep her interest more than animation, unless she moves onto videogames or something.

[@avivastudios2311]

Could you name a comic. I'm slightly curious despite not really liking her style.

[@depressed4893]

@@avivastudios2311 not op but the main one that she completely flunked was zoophobia. panels are still around if you wanna read it but i dont recommend it.

[@alieneko_nyo]

actually.. yeah- if you think about it, Helluva Boss came from Hazbing Hotel because Viv said the characters for that history had too much extra plot for Hazbin.. AND HAZBIN CAME FROM ZOOPHOBIA BECAUSE THE CHARACTERS FOR THAT HISTORY HAD TOO MUCH EXTRA PLOT FOR ZOOPHOBIA-

[@avivastudios2311]

@@alieneko_nyo That's funny. But hey I'm not mad cause it allows her to branch out and tell all kinds of different stories.

[@LindsayTheWolf13]

Oh my god, I'm so glad someone else sees how weird it is that the Stella-Stolas marriage issue has been made to be very one-sided with the sudden revelation that Stella is an abusive bitch. I thought I was the only one that realized that. Stella was never an innocent but at the beginning you could at least put some of the fault on Stolas. Now it's like he's a poor sadboi that needed Blitzo to rescue him from an abusive marriage with a megabitch like what???

[@skyxclouds3765]

The "Stella was always an abusive b*tch" could worked... if it was always used from the start, and it wasnt used to justify Stolas. Like, it was kinda hinted from the start, but it was never explored and for the way it was revealed its feels more like a "GOTCHA!" For people who were thinking that maybe Stolas wasnt so inocent and that cheating was not ok... they really wanted to victimize him, huh?

[@Cat-hz7yd]

This 😭 Stella being abusive is fine, it could've been a really interesting plot point, but it really feels like it's just another way to uwu-ify Stolas and remove his accountability rather than Vivzie wanting to actually show abusive relationships or the they impact people. It also removed some of the spice and interest from Stoblitz imo.

[@moondivine2288]

Why does this comment section give me the “tell me you haven’t paid attention to the show without saying you haven’t paid attention to the show.” First off it has always been implied Stella was abusive. At one episode he struggled to tell Octavia the problems he is having with her mom. Stella didn’t even have a problem that stolas cheated but was upset that it was with an imp, the lowest of the low. It wasn’t done to make Stolas a “sad boy that needs rescuing “ from Blitz.” Stolas stood up for himself and before that he pondered whatever was between him and Blitz was a lie. Looking at a way Blitz can access the human realm with a crystal instead of a book. I have a feeling Blitz and Stolas will develop outside his abusive relationship. I remember some people guessed and were proven right that Stolas and Stella had an arranged marriage. I wasn’t surprised its terrible

[@BitchboyOzzie]

@@moondivine2288 why are you defending this terribly written show so much?

[@moondivine2288]

@@BitchboyOzzie so me stating facts equals me defending the show? I don’t see the logic in that statement. Coming from someone who saw a plot twist coming in another show because I paid attention to the details I know what I’m saying. Helluva boss is by no means perfect but, to me its not that bad.

[@annieverymary]

What I disliked most about the narrative of the show is how the characters never prove the consequences of their actions, there is never a direct continuation of what they did in the previous one, leaving a lot of plot holes. For example: What happened to the agents? Was Stolas ever ashamed to date a lower class devil? Does no one in the Goetia family care that he has an affair with an IMP? How will Stolas's divorce affect the Goetia family? If Stella and Stolas were forced to get married from a young age, why was divorce that easy then? What is Octavia's relationship with Stella? Stella has real reasons to be mean? I have lots of questions without at answer, I'm so tired of keep theorizing, I need an answer from the show.

[@redguyslave409]

There's too many cliffhangers! These writers nee to slow down, look in the mirror, maybe think these things through, and give us some damn answers and not keep adding more cliffhangers

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Also Blitzo threatening Moxxie that he will rape him and Millie and in the 6th episode this fucking show has the audacity to say Moxxie wants to be his friend. Also this show LOVES to talk about how flawed Blitzo is and how much he breaks his relationships, but he NEVER does that on screen. He never breaks any relationship he has now and for some reason everyone WANTS to be with him despite him being an awful person to be around. Also why the hell is Millie not reacting in ANY way to Moxxie being insulted now? She did in the pilot, but whenever Blitzo or Loona do it now she says nothing.

[@annieverymary]

@@redguyslave409 That's right, they're going way too fast.

[@unknown_raven975]

It feels like every episode is written by different person who doesn't know the characters so they make their own wattpad fanfic

[@HunterStiles651]

Ngl, this is a pretty L take. I feel like people who criticize the show for having too many unresolved plot points forget that the show so far isn't all that long in the grand scheme of things, and quite frankly it strikes me as a smidge hypocritical. Y'all are willing to give shows like Breaking Bad or Avatar multiple seasons to tell the stories they want to tell, but when the DHORKS or the backlash from the Goetia family to Stolas' getting a divorce isn't brought up again within two seconds suddenly you're up in arms. If neither of those two things come up again by the end of Season 2, then yeah it's time to start wondering if Vivzie intends on turning Helluva Boss into a JJ Abrams-esque Kudzu Plot. But for now y'all are just being impatient.

[@MrSpartan993]

Someone finally had the balls to criticize this show despite the toxic fanbase.

[@Stratoblast]

And Loona

[@MrSpartan993]

@@Stratoblast And Loona??

[@Stratoblast]

@@MrSpartan993 yeah, criticize how she isn’t a good character

[@ryszakowy]

@@Stratoblast she doesn't need to be when r34 floods with her... toxic fanbase needs a good furry and everything else is forgot

[@Stratoblast]

@@ryszakowy btw, you know Steven universe? Do you remember Lapiz lazuli? Well we got another Lapiz!

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

The whole thing with Stella saying "I love tormenting you" was really disappointing writing...

[@DromusTH]

Very

[@andrewgreeb916]

You can justify someone being petty and cruel, but not purely sadistic.

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

@@andrewgreeb916 I think there's a way to handle sadistic characters, but they wouldn't come right out and say it.

[@avivastudios2311]

@@GarnetHeartIllustrations True. That was too cartoony.

[@harilars8570]

To be honest, the show isn’t all about milly. Also, milly did get an episode. We learned that in episode 6

[@greenisthedevilscolor784]

It needs to be said: Hazbin Hotel/Helluva boss is what you get when you cross wish fulfillment with an actual team of talented animators and a dedicated fanbase of millions. It's an overproduced tumblr prompt. The writers (and this is a constant in Vivzie's passion projects in general) clearly liked the *idea* of making an adult animated series with an extended cast of characters, an episodic format but also a deeper narrative, actual stakes and emotional beats. In practice, what they made is fanfiction featuring Vivzie's high school OCs. All the characters, all the "plots" of the episodes are a big regurgitation of their favorite tropes, not particularly thought out or well executed, coming from a writing team that's not skilled enough to pull it off. There are certain characters/dynamics that they clearly enjoy more than others, usually involving the male characters (the damaged character who's an asshole but is secretly afraid of intimacy, the pathetic woobie who's fun to make fun of, the charming rogue villain, the annoying fuckboy you love to hate, etc.) while everything else that they aren't interested in they happily half-ass (worldbuilding, god forbid any actual investment in female characters beyond "here to further x male character's emotional depth", pacing, balanced character designs) This wouldn't be a problem if you were writing your own wish fulfillment on AO3, but if you want to produce an actual show, at some point you're going to have to grow up and actually put some work into writing it. Yes, even the "boring" parts that are not just your blorbos being quirky or pining for each other. And if you don't want or can't do it, then hire writers who can. You want hard hitting, character driven moments? Gotta put in the legwork and earn them first. Can't be all spice and no meat.

[@KevinKess]

@greenisthedevilscolor784 All of what you said... sums up what I'm trying to avoid with my own writing.

[@alexcat6685]

This, all of this is true. It take manual work that I myself understand can be boring to do. Keeping rules in place, explaining information in an enternaing way, fleshing out characters so noone is left out. The beauty of writing is having fun in doing it, expressing and challenging the rules in place to be overcomed, showing the world's workings and having the imagination work with logic to create a living breathing existence thats consistent. Working with characters that speak out to people, things that they can enjoy and love. All of this meaningful stuff takes work that makes it worth it. Vivzi is missing displine or atleast enough displine in her writing.

[@rubber161]

Finally someone who explores the actual issues of the series. 90% of the comments here point out a personal issue they had with the series, subjective opinions, but you cannot judge a project out of personal considerations. Glad someone sees the bigger picture.

[@greenisthedevilscolor784]

@@rubber161 Glad someone else sees it too. And might I add all these things were evident since the first episode came out, but there was nothing but hype for it at the time. I was waiting to see when people would start seeing through the cracks, took long enough. For as much as I can respect the amount of work and passion put into an independent creative work, I also can't praise good writing where there is none. Edit: I also want to add I have nothing but respect for the animators putting their hard work into this project, it just saddens me that it's towards something so unnecessarily overdesigned and imo kinda mediocre. (And possible bad working conditions.)

[@rubber161]

@@greenisthedevilscolor784 Yeah there were many allegations too, though I tend to doubt those because they never bring substantial evidence. Regardless, I once more have to agree, generally Vivziepop has always been an idea factory that always produces so much potential, the issue back then was her limitations with the webcomic aspect of her series, and when it came to forming a studio they simply transformed into something else. I mean, the concept of setting a comedy/drama animated series in hell with a reinterpretation of the setting in question was nothing ever seen before, and being able to set this many archetypes for a full cast before it even released was huge. The whole issue is in the execution, which inevitably has its roots in the very "indie" nature of it all that allows many rushed writing techniques, mainly in season 2 that is simply FILLED with tropes (the very first thing you see there is a childhood relationship trope). Generally, Viv is great at setting moods and giving dramatic tension to the scenes she directs. The whole issue here is poor planning and teamwork, but I honestly look at the positive side of it all, it may just be the greater focus given to Hazbin Hotel. If that show turns out to have the same issues, then yeah, it won't really be excused anymore.

[@notenoughmemes1847]

As a fan of the show I’d say your criticisms are pretty fair, rip about that whole audio issue, thought my air pods shit the bed before you re-uploaded this.

[@JediMasterRevenantMADNESS]

Same. Though some of it I think can be overlooked, and I do have my own opinions against his criticisms. But overall, he's right. Show has flaws it needs to clean up/address. We can still praise it, we can still like it, but we shouldn't ignore its issues.

[@michael9r9r]

I agree, I like the show but instead of blindly defending it I appreciate the criticism. I hope viv and the team can take the criticism and improve future episodes.

[@iamperish]

While I do admire the show, the cast, and the creators, I will admit that as a storyteller myself there is frustration with how the show became less episodic and wacky like the original premise and more so some plot driven romantic drama between two assholes. There can be the argument that other shows in the past had this transition but those had the benefit of length and quantity. Helluva Boss became way too plot-driven in a short amount of time. I remember it originally being advertised as the more laidback and more loose side show while all the heavy lore and story stuff was being dropped on Hazbin. Again, i love the show and the characters but the attempt to make it deep this early on just feels odd.

[@magma_fire_bagwan]

"Helluva Boss became way too plot-driven in a short amount of time. I remember it originally being advertised as the more laidback and more loose side show while all the heavy lore and story stuff was being dropped on Hazbin." Dangerously based. Plus, how the hell are they gonna draw in an audience instantly without false advertising if THIS is how most of the show has turned out?

[@ShadowCrescent]

its rwby all over again.

[@kenjutsukata1o1]

@@ShadowCrescent the parallels are striking.

[@softkittens9371]

This ^ This comment right here. It's so frustrating!!! How did we go from a funny episodic dark comedy, to a fanfic-y romance drama soap opera??

[@Jazker_da_thief]

I completely agree with you, I used to like Helluva boss because of the episodic wacky-gorey stuff, since it's supposed to be a little spinoff of Hazbin Hotel that's what I thought the whole show was going to be like. Like why they don't just keep the drama in Hazbin Hotel since its the main show and make helluva boss have comedy as its main thing. Maybe it's just me since romantic drama is not really my taste :/

[@guilhermeteodosio40]

Striker: "not many imps start their own business" Fizz: *most famous demon in Hell** Verosika: *second most famous demon in Hell** Crimson: *literal mafia boss** Uhm, excuse me... where's the oppression in this cast system? Imps are shown to be doing just fine with the opportunity they have

[@anilkumarroy1691]

Verosika is a succubus not an imp

[@TwilightVoid-h4s]

@@Leechlordfestus Very true

[@NearPanther92]

To be fair nobody but Asmodeus knows Fizz is an imp

[@humantoon]

@@NearPanther92 Exactly. And Verosika is a succubus not an imp. The only one that doesn’t have an excuse is Crimson. He’s apparently really powerful but he’s still an imp?

[@reign_issue]

@@humantoon i think it’s because it doesn’t matter if anyone respects him- he operates on fear, not respect

[@murmurcub]

Thank you, I just can’t stand stolitz, I simply can't, I knew it was because of how their relationship was so bland, and then with the childhood episode they made it worse, the relationship is so plot-armored, if something is relatively bad or toxic, they'll find a way to make it seems less _problematic_ because... is it bad to develop your own ships? People often ignore that, and I'm so glad you address the issues not only with the relationship, but with the series as a whole. -Millie specially-

[@avivastudios2311]

😅 Ahhh... Plot armoured relationship.

[@todlerr]

the show fetishizes mlm relationships so goddamn much it’s honestly disgusting

[@sandracarnegie2871]

@@todlerr the creators are literally gay

[@kapilakhare2936]

@@sandracarnegie2871gay people can write problematic queer ships lol, they’re not exempt from that

[@PinkBB02]

viv isnt gay huh@@sandracarnegie2871

[@PeeperSnail]

The fact they had to write the wife to be as cruel and petty as possible to distract from the fact he’s having an AFFAIR is baffling to me.

[@momoko6917]

HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE

[@CoolMagmar]

@@momoko6917 Eh forced marriage isn't really a relationship, and by the way Stella was talking about the cheating she seemed more mad that he cheated with a imp than being cheated on, and by how many characters treat having sexual advances as something normal I don't think having an affair is a big deal on this society but you can bet that this will change depending on the writer

[@someoneinacrysis8114]

It's hell, she wasn't even mad he cheated, she was just mad it was with an imp

[@angelicstarrs4287]

@@someoneinacrysis8114 yeah cuz the writing sucks like shit they made her want to kill her husband even though she doesn’t care 💀 besides he thinks with his dick and not his brain

[@angelicstarrs4287]

@@CoolMagmar no the plot is just a massive hole filled of piss and shit by a racist who drew Nazi porn and isn’t even a gay man

[@TheDisquietingNight]

I miss the days when the show focus on the imps just doing their job. This Goetia family turmoil plot really overtaking the show's story.

[@TheDisquietingNight]

@KalíTv well, there's also the one with Mayday and another with the cherubs, even though the former is just plain massacre. So while not much, it aint that so few either

[@PrettyBabyAngel]

@KaliTv901you know the pilot is supposed to prepare us for the show right?

[@rahma6992]

The pilot?

[@chemifan6784]

This show has no focus anymore

[@theirlmess]

Ikr, like the goetia storyline is cool and all, but it just isn’t working out with the original style the show was going for- 😬

[@UnluckyAmulet]

People got mad at me when I pointed out the show isn't good at writing women because it's written by a woman, but like, all of the female characters are defined by their relationships with male characters - Loona is Blitz's adopted daughter and does absolutely nothing but be a bitchy glorified background character throughout most of Season One, Millie is defined solely by being Moxxie's wife (even the episode where we meet Millie's family is still more about Moxxie, Striker and Blitzo than her), and Stella and Octavia are only defined by how they impact Stolas. The show is fr the Blitzo and Moxxie show. I kind of stopped watching it midway through Season 2, I don't like Stolas and I doubt that's going to change to watching his relationship with Blitzo take over as the show's core just utterly failed to keep me engaged. (Also I think it's pretty distasteful that to justify Stolas cheating, Stella is retconned into being a psychotic abusive bitch with no redeeming features so Vivzie can push Stolitz, because only men are allowed to be flawed, multifacted characters who do shitty things but still get treated sympathetically. Stella is not allowed to have any positive character traits because then Stolas would be in the wrong and she can't have THAT.)

[@jmaster4941]

People don't realize that you can write characters poorly regardless of gender. In a recent Twitter thread, Viv tried to excuse this by saying "HB is focused more on male-led stories while Hazbin is focused more on female-led stories." I hate this because you know what else is male-led and has poorly-written female characters? Most shonen anime like Naruto and My Hero. I respect Viv as a creator but holy shit. Viv and co either really must not have much contact with other women or must mostly exclusively watch shonen anime if this is how they're treating their female characters.

[@UnluckyAmulet]

@@jmaster4941 I feel like Shounen anime having bad female writing is a lot more complex, because Japan isn't very active about women's rights and it's kind of a cultural issue, not just one author doing it. Plus Kishimoto has admitted he's terrible at writing women (which doesn't excuse it, but at least he's visibly making an effort to improve with Boruto even if that show has its own issues, and similarly I think Horikoshi's made decent attempts at giving his female characters more active parts in the story. It's not perfect by any means but at least they've admitted it and tried to do better.) But yeah, Viv can't wave around HH to prove anything when all the fans have been given is a pilot, a few webcomics and a music video. Like Just Stop said, HB should stand on its own and plus it's pretty laughable she's saying HH is more female-oriented when she clearly favours Alastor and Angel Dust over everyone else since she made them first - they're leagues more popular, fleshed-out and interesting than Charlie, the supposed lead of the show, and Vaggie is just Charlie's attack dog and we don't know anything about Niffty yet. Tbh I'm so over waiting for HH now that I've lost any interest I once had in it, and I was very much unimpressed that half the VAs won't be returning for the actual show, if it ever actually gets made.

[@matthewmcbride778]

​@@jmaster4941 if the twitter thing is true then viv had shot herself in the leg.

[@samflood5631]

What about Chainsaw Man, Spy X Family, Tokyo Ghoul, Hell’s Paradise, Jujutsu Kaisen, Zom 100 Bucket List of the Dead and Inuyasha? Those are shonen shows where the female characters are given a lot of character development and representation.

[@charliepeck82]

Stella wasn’t retconned; she didn’t have a personality before 😂

[@Zenzith]

*i dont hate how he points out all of these flaws..* *_I hate how i never realized any of these flaws-_*

[@C0RVIN]

The most ridiculous plot hole that I’ve seen was that in 1x6, Stolas was able to teleport right to Blitzo even without the book and then in 2x2 the writers just completely forgot about 1x6 because he had to SEARCH for Octavia lol

[@avivastudios2311]

Oh, yeah, how did he get to the human world? Through a crystal ball? weird...

[@Jdudec367]

Is that a plot hole? Seems like he was just looking at Blitz ever since he teleported to the human world...with Octavia he didn't see her or focus on her so he lost track of her.

[@C0RVIN]

@@Jdudec367 that never got established so there’s no way to confirm that. All we know for sure is that Stolas was able to teleport right to Blizto without the book yet he wasn’t able to for Blitzo. Since there is no explanation, it is therefore a plot hole.

[@Jdudec367]

@@C0RVIN It was and it was shown. Because again at the time he was clearly focusing on Blitz...doesn't he have a crystal ball being the prince of astrology and all? So there is a explanation and it really isn't a plot hole.

[@C0RVIN]

@@Jdudec367 if that was shown, that’s even more of a plot hole because you’d think he’d focus on Octavia, since she’s his daughter

[@LunarSpoonHasFun]

I mostly noticed the issues with Loona's character: is she supposed to be the lovable, cool bitch with an attitude, or the empathetic sisterly character who secretly understands everything? Her personality between the pilot and most recent episode just seems so opposite.

[@CyberdustStudios]

I feel like she's more of a tough love character that acts like a bitch to hide the other quirks that she's not. Like social awkwardness.

[@pastelskulls]

Personally I always assumed Loona was just kinda hiding her actual personality (what we see in the newest(?) episode) behind the bitchy attitude as a defense mechanism, especially because we see what she's been through. The scene with Octavia could have been her showing a bit of that or having a soft spot for other troubled people like herself or at least thats how I saw it.

[@kh-wp1mj]

i feel like making her one or the other would make her pretty one dimensional

[@kawaiielephant7772]

@@kh-wp1mj yeah neither of these personality types even contradict each other anyway so why does it matter???

[@koichidignitythief7429]

Loona is a person who like Blitz always represses how she truly feels, and is just more aggressive about it. With Octavia she's actually someone her age and not some adult like the rest of the IMP gang or clients. So in that way I guess Loona felt more comfortable around her or saw something she can relate too in Octavia being a moody teen with Daddy issues. The only other people she hasn't shown aggression towards was Vortex and Verosika: The former because again he's possibly her age she can relate to (and wants to bone), the latter because she's a famous popstar that appeals to someone her age.

[@thewhitesister]

I have a lot of things that annoy me about Helluva Boss. But one of my biggest gripes is Stolas portrayal in the show vs the pilot. He went from sex crazed deviant demon lord to misunderstood UwU boi Twink.

[@princesspumpkin9900]

EXACTLY especially when like Stolas and Blitz had that fall out after going to the lust ring and youd think that they'd be acting off in their next interaction or stoles trying to like apologize or trying to explain or saying SOMETHING about the situation to show that he cares but he doesn't in 202. He doesn't. He just continues with the flirting and the "sexual tension" which makes the characters one dimensional

[@Jdudec367]

so developing and not being a 1-note pervert while still having flaws is a bad thing? Also he was still sex crazed

[@Jdudec367]

@@princesspumpkin9900 that doesn't make the character one dimensional like wtf, that just shows that he hasn't given up on trying to be with Blitz.

[@thewhitesister]

@@Jdudec367 in the pilot he was conspiring to get a lot of us (humans) killed. Showing out of all the characters in Helluva Boss he was arguably the darkest. I liked that. I'm just saying I wished they kept that part .

[@Jdudec367]

@@thewhitesister Huh when? He is still fine with humans getting killed.

[@KrillWhisperer]

Didn't Blitzo also straight up hated Stolas in the first few eps and made it very clear he himself is not enjoying their relationship and only keeps the sham up for the book???

[@TwilightVoid-h4s]

Yeah, now it seems that the creators want it to be sometihng out of a fairytale in S2. For me, I'd just decide to ship Blitz with an OC or someone else but so far, it appears no one in the show seems to qualify for that since: 1. Fizz and Ozzie are already in happy relationship 2. Verosika is far to bitter and jaded to actually forgive Blitz (might change later, based on what crap the show tries to do next) 3. Striker... Idk...

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

I remember the time when Helluva Boss used to be called "The dark version of The Office" back when the pilot came out. The IMP is pretty much what happens if Hellboy was an assassin organization group.

[@yeoldeseawitch]

I do actually want to see a battle between hellboy and IMP

[@superherochestsymbol1032]

I miss when the first few episodes were pretty much just that.

[@tobsonasanya4765]

@@superherochestsymbol1032 lol so you want them to keep doing assasin episodes?? that would get old fast

[@superherochestsymbol1032]

@@tobsonasanya4765 I mean, their plot heavy stuff is all over the place right now, so.

[@tobsonasanya4765]

@@superherochestsymbol1032 but it would have been worse if it just assasin stuff lol. also do fans forget that the show has like nine episodes. most shows have like 13 or more in their first seasons .

[@shaythemoonchild431]

I have to agree with you that Stolas is a terrible father. In every interaction that has Stolas with Octavia, it is always after he has ignored Octavia in some way. In Season 1 “Looloo land,” Octavia has distanced herself from her parents due to their fighting and Stolas does not that realize that until he physically sees it. Then, he tries to make it up to her by taking her to a place she visibly dislikes and to make it better he invites the one person who should probably not be in this supposed dad-daughter time; Blitz. He then spends most of the trip ignoring Octavia’s feelings to flirt and ogle Blitz until Octavia has had enough and she leaves. Then suddenly Stolas realizes how selfish he has been this entire time and goes to talk to her. That feels more like a way to make Stolas a sympathizer character than to showcase that he actually cares about Octavia over his relationship with Blitz. Season 2, Octavia literally runs away from home because her dad is ignoring her and forgot a special day of theirs. When Blitz tells Stolas this, he goes to the human world to rescue her but spends the majority again flirting with Blitz. Huh? At the end, there is another conversation between the two that feels disingenuous to me because how can he say he loves her more than anything but somehow still spend most his time with Blitz? It just doesn’t make sense and I feel like so many people who ship Stolitz overlook this to make Stolas the perfect angel character.

[@redpanda6497]

Now that you mention it, yeah. Why does he spends so much time watching Blitz acting when he needs to find Octavia?

[@Val17282]

@@redpanda6497 i was asking that question the entire time during that episode. I hated it so much

[@andjelabozic2317]

Good point. I feel like he loves her, but she isn't always a priority. He forgets about her when Blitz is around. Probably bc he's in a honeymoon phase and it's exciting after a failed marriage. He seems like a perfect parent bc we never see Octavia interacting with her mom. I think that's bc Stella doesn't want to take her anger out on her, since she never address her when she's fighting with Stolas. But since they like to make her a bitch I could be wrong and maybe we'll have more reason to hate her. Overall, while Stella seems to be a worse parent, neither of them are perfect

[@redguyslave409]

That's true. I was actually once a huge defender of Stolas all because everyone convinced me that he's an uwu good boy who's caring and such a loving father 😊 Meanwhile his daughter could've potentially be getting in danger alone in the city while he's just sitting around watching Blitz's terrible acting 👀

[@srenfy]

BRO I DISLIKED THE EPISODE I WATCHED ON SEASON 2 😭 honestly it’s really sad to see octavia being forgotten by her father. I really don’t understand why he “cares” for her and not even paying attention to her. Like hello?? do you not even wanna hear your daughter?? 💀 I really wish stolas could be a better father and ACTUALLY care for her for once. But no, he focuses on blitz instead of her.

[@torakazu2269]

Something I noticed was that when Stolas is getting grilled by Stella for cheating, he's far more passive and "guilt-ridden" than she is, reasonably. However, in the season 2 episode where we get to the moment when Stella discovers the cheating, Stolas is basically giving her the middle finger by flaunting the whole ordeal in front of her face? Did these events happen in the opposite order than what I assume, and if so, how does that make any more sense? Blitz falling on the tea party table happens in Season 1, of which the Octavia episode that follows it is supposed to be the aftermath of that discovery.

[@stempest7218]

It's just a massive retcon to try and make blitzo and stoles disgusting relationship seem better. Like in the first episodes it's made clear blitzo hates stoles and thinks he is just a disgusting pervert. While stoles really is just a disgusting pervert. Even in the episode with his daughter he brings blitzo along just so he can flirt with blitzo. Which blitzo only went fir money and made it clear he hated stolas and he kept pushing off stolas flirts. Also if stolas wanted to be a good father to his daughter why ignore his daughter to bring a guy he has sex with to flirt with him while you are trying to fix your relationship with your daughter. Then it is later retconned that blitzo doesn't hate stolas but there is no build up to it all of a sudden he us just pushing stolas away like he does with every relationship. Even when it was made clear blitzo just hated stolas and didn't want to have sex with him he only did it fir work but hated it. Then stolas is shown just to be a disgusting pervert who just uses stolas for sex. Then it is retconned to stolas just being lonely and wanting to spend time with blitzo.

[@Codyb162]

I think what happened is that he just had s*x with blitz and we can see even from that episode he got a major confidence boost making him finally say what he always wanted to say but after confidence boost wore off he realised oh s**t what have I done

[@inarifox8912]

In season 1 episode 2 Stella isn't upset that Stolas cheated. She's upset that he cheated with an Imp, one of the lowest classes in hell, and was seen by her peers. Stella doesn't care about Stolas, just the status and appearance it brings to her.

[@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS]

Vivzie siad it's because when he said "That was the sound of a FUCK-ING DIVORCE!" he was filled with euphoria...which then wore off when he realized "Oh shit, getting the divorce is gonna be much tougher then I thought". Hence his attempts to de-escalate the argument in Episode 2. I also no longer think the scene in Lo Lo Land, takes place the same morning. Given that Octavia seems use to her parents screaming at each other and Blitz seems like he's used to Stolas calling him for sex along with IMP having their office. Unless, Blitz's line of "Oh I kill people now" might mean IMP originally killed people in Hell before they got the Book.

[@bumblebee8615]

@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS And that’s an example of how poor some of the writing is in the show. There’s many times I’ve noticed things Vivzie attempts to write but it doesn’t pan out well because she jumps all over the place and moves too quickly with her pacing. As Just Stop commented, so much has happened narratively and plot wise with how little has been put out.

[@AngrETubE]

Imma be real or wrong, a good chunk of fans either don't care about the writing, choose to ignore it, or are too scared to say anything less they anger anybody. It has to be one of those three. I like the show it's not great, but it's not awful, just really short and fast-paced with a few likable characters.

[@fromhell11112]

i think thats any fan base who likes one particular show, i just consume all cartoons myself, i definitely see writing flaws but theres still good to the show, i like critique but i feel like people are being a bit hard on the show, like someone was critiquing the fact that luna had no voice in the latest episode like it was the creators fault that the voice actor was hella sick.

[@mrcaterpillow9926]

@@fromhell11112 I want to correct one thing, she wasn't really sick. She was griefing. It was a little more serious than just being under the weather.

[@fromhell11112]

@@mrcaterpillow9926 idk where i heard she was sick, i dont blame them either way, i give the hazbin hotel team credit for working around it so well, i didn't even notice she never talked.

[@ItIsTheLordWhoKeepsme]

I choose to ignore it

[@TheIrreverentUncleAl]

@@ItIsTheLordWhoKeepsme Good choice.

[@marly6125]

Me praying vivzie watches this so bad because I just want a genuinely non-confusing episode to come out

[@dylsaster]

yeah lmao pretty much

[@brainthebrian3690]

She'll only change her ways if people stop buying her merch.

[@marly6125]

@@brainthebrian3690 it's good I can't afford it lmfao

[@orangeslash1667]

@@marly6125 I question why we have helluva boss episodes instead of Hazbin Hotel????? Harbin Hotel to me felt like it might tackle some themes of Redemption, something that a lot of shows struggle with. With Helluva Boss the premise feels more simple demons killing people, so when it takes it self more seriously it's not always great. It reminds of when Maxwell Atoms knew it was the smarter choice to chose the Grim Adventures over Evil Con Carne. With Helluva Boss I don't see how this was the better choice????

[@marly6125]

@@orangeslash1667 hazbin hotel is getting like actual funding from a24 and I think they're trying to make it an actual TV show? I know vivzie did say they're releasing new episodes this summer though But, yeah, I agree. I think hazbin hotel has a way more interesting plot and could have fun side plots than the confusing ones Helluva Boss has.

[@NwAgeRetro]

The show always felt so uncomfortable. Throughout the pilot and 1-1, it seemed as though Stolas was being set up as a character you're not supposed to like, and 1-2 opens with stolas being self-centered and claiming it's for his daughter. It makes the scene with the tunnel ride feel so gross and hollow, it made the writers saying "but actually Stolas isn't wrong, its Stella" feel so much more forced.

[@no-one...186]

Imagine knowing your dad cheated on your mom with a person, and then took you to an amusement park WITH THE PERSON HE WAS CHEATING WITH?

[@hydrocosmo]

@@no-one...186 yeah its almost like they're dysfunctional or something

[@sekiro_the_one-armed_wolf]

@@no-one...186I don’t have to, but she cheated first lmao

[@Birdyboys]

@@hydrocosmo and yet the show keeps asserting they’re perfect for each other

[@bags.]

Well, it makes sense because the changed Stolas' VA after the pilot specifically because they didn't feel he was a fit for the way they developed the character. So yes, Pilot Stolas is supposed to come off as a stuffy aristocrat that you aren't supposed to like. Which they changed for the show proper. (Or at least attempted to change, depending on your opinions). 1-1 has so little screen time that I never drew much of a conclusion based on it in a vacuum. 1-2 shows a man desperate to rekindle some past happiness he and his daughter shared, married with his poor impulse control. Stolas isn't a great father, at least not at the times they appear on screen together. I don't think the ending of 1-2 is necessarily 'gross and hollow', more Stolas coming to realize the trip was entirely something he deluded himself into think was a good idea for her, when it was a good idea for him. She has a drawing of them together in her room along with a painting/photograph, so I don't think it's a stretch to say he's always been that much of a disaster father figure. And the writers said 'Stella is wrong' in 1-2 as well. There's all of one photo of them as a happy family, she makes Stolas go check on Octavia in the flash back, Octavia's entire room looks designed by Stolas, she's specifically mad that he cheated on her with an Imp to embarras her (read: not actually upset he cheated on her), and throws a member of their staff at him. I really don't see how it's forced. Other than an ambiguous line about "I thought love could be fun" in his song, I can't think of a single thing he or she say and do that hints at it being anything than an entirely loveless arranged marriage that they both hate.

[@grandinquisitor8335]

Honestly I wish that IMP was focused more and the political underworld of hell itself, I think you can create great worldbuilding but still remain a comedic series. I would love to see rival gangs and political factions of hell battling it out for contracts.

[@ratz_go_splatz]

Hazbin Hotel seemed more interested in that route in all honesty.

[@avivastudios2311]

I've never been interested in politics but that's something I'd like to see too. I want to see more of the people in charge. I want to know about the government and the class system. Why are imps lesser than everyone else. Is it because of the way they look, or what they do. There 's a heck of lot of backstory here and I'd love to know it.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ratz_go_splatz I question why we have helluva boss episodes instead of Hazbin Hotel????? Harbin Hotel to me felt like it might tackle some themes of Redemption, something that a lot of shows struggle with. With Helluva Boss the premise feels more simple demons killing people, so when it takes it self more seriously it's not always great. It reminds of when Maxwell Atoms knew it was the smarter choice to chose the Grim Adventures over Evil Con Carne. With Helluva Boss I don't see how this was the better choice????

[@izxum.1]

Can yall just leave vivzipop alone??

[@izxum.1]

She works hard

[@orangebesr]

The old guy in episode 4 not using the aging machine is the biggest plot hole I have ever scene. You make and entire aging machine for him to become older and then he doesn't use it to get younger again. I have never seen a worse plot device ever, what kind of writing is this.

[@ladyofnoxus6733]

I would have loved to have seen Stella go into the human world to find Via, cause that is her daughter too and I do think if she was written correctly or more interestingly could have been a great plot point with Stolis and Stella to maybe put some of their animosity aside to find their child. Like a LOT of parents who are getting divorced do, when they realize their child together is missing. it would have been amazing if it was Stella that called Stolis putting her own pride and selfishness aside momentarily to explain that Via snuck out and is nowhere to be seen. and he realized that she was with him or found her scent towards Blitzs office. and BOTH go get their daughter. And even giving Stella that mother-daughter moment of her trying to explain.

[@IcyDiamond]

Stella hasn’t been portrayed as a caring mother, this would’ve been very out of character

[@starjellocup]

@@IcyDiamond I don’t think Via and Stella’s relationship has been established at all. The only aspect of Stella’s character that was touched on was her as a wife- not really as a mother, from my understanding. Do you have any examples of her not being caring?

[@IcyDiamond]

@@starjellocup There’s been hints of it throughout the series, like how Stella didn’t want to get up to comfort Octavia, how child Octavia had a dream about Stolas disappearing yet not Stella, how Stella seemed to hate Loo Loo Land in that one picture on the wall, and other minor stuff that hints to this

[@buddyholly855]

throughout the series stella has been portrayed as a bad wife and bad mother

[@starjellocup]

@@IcyDiamond her not getting up to comfort via could be interpreted as her just being exhausted? taking care of children takes a lot out of a person- even stolas seemed exhausted at the thought of getting up, but he went anyway after checking to see if stella would get up instead. so he didn’t really seem to want to get up either her having a nightmare about only stolas disappearing could be just her favoring him over her mother? it seemed like they really wanted to push that stolas was the favorite and didn’t via also hate loo loo land? there’s only been vague hints like that instead of the relationship between the two actually being shown, so it’s really hard to say for sure? i wouldn’t be surprised if she were a terrible mother, but there isn’t much to go off of. especially because they changed the direction of their story and the nature of their characters so drastically- despite the details for what they had before being laid out, making it all jumbled up and confusing. via and stella haven’t even stood next to each other yet in the series and it’s really disappointing

[@Wolfiyeethegranddukecerberus17]

Unrelated to the topic or Helluva Boss, but I really do love how you list off the positives in the middle of your critique, rather than at the end like most commentators. Really shifts the tone of a critique video, and makes the blow a lot softer for the fans. Keep it up.

[@pugums3433]

I legit was beginning to think i was crazy, I have been laying criticisms at this show for a while and i have been insulted and bullied by members of its fan base to the point i stopped talking about it. I began to think maybe i was wrong and there is no issues in the show?! Thank you so much for not only making this but hitting literally every criticism i have for this show. Im happy to find that im not crazy and these issues are real and that also like me, disliking things in this show doesnt meant you want it to die. You want this show to succeed and grow. Pointing out what is wrong isnt out of spite but out of love for the art form and i really do hope vivzie sees this cause atm everyone is just eating up everything, acting like yes men and silencing everyone with a valid criticism.

[@kawaiielephant7772]

I'm really mad that an entire fanbase tried to gaslight you into forgetting problems in a show that they liked like wtf???

[@mray4784]

You are not alone.

[@Mankey619]

Same here dude. This series really has a lot of flaws from the start,and Vizie needs to improve upon the story and her characters,cause it’s a mess here and the fans aren’t helping it.

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

This is basically what happens to me as well. You get ridiculed and buried to hell and back for talking bad about the show because people there genuinely cannot fathom that criticizing a show is a sign that you actually care for it and want it to get better. These people REALLY are making this show worse because they don't allow Viv and her crew to eve hear any criticism.

[@cyan789]

Funny that a show that wants to appeal to a mature audience has so much childishness in its fanbase.

[@ronaldmacjokerfeliz2669]

Eight months later, the show hasn't gotten any better, in fact you could say it's gotten worse

[@ronaldmacjokerfeliz2669]

​@e92312What?

[@gremnlinloquillo3310]

​@e92312Maybe because there wasn't real competition

[@ibraahimdureng7482]

@e92312 In my opinion Helluva boss is better or if not equal to those indie shows

[@aadicariappa2344]

After episode 7 of season 2, it has gotten slightly better, but it still has a long way to go.

[@ronaldmacjokerfeliz2669]

@@aadicariappa2344 I agree

[@ScorpSteed]

Stolas seems very capable of protecting himself and his daughter, so I don’t get why he needed to hire bodyguards. He gives a reason why in “Loo Loo Land,” but in that same episode, we see him petrify a possible kidnapper, and later episodes shows how dangerous and powerful he can be. The episode wants us to think Stolas wants to cheer up Octavia so he takes her to her favorite childhood theme park, and he just so happens to hire Blitzo and his team… But to me, it seems more like Stolas is trying to cheer himself up and is passing it off as trying to make Octavia feel better, at least, that’s what he’s telling himself.

[@no-one...186]

FINALLY, I thought I was the only one who thought of that. Imagine, knowing that your dad cheated on your mom with a person, and he takes you to the amusement park WITH THE PERSON HE WAS CHEATING WITH

[@Twinklenighterstarshine]

@@no-one...186 Exactly, that episode went back and forth about Stolas being a good or bad father. I wanted them to make up their minds.

[@brainthebrian3690]

*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* oooo wow, Holy sh1t, where were you when Kennedy got shot...

[@IcyDiamond]

I feel like the point was that Stolas was being selfish by bringing Blitzø and the other imps there when he didn’t need bodyguards at all, it was meant to be a learning experience for him, at the end he even asks Octavia what she actually wants to do, showing that he’s grown into a better father The real problems come in during Seeing Stars, dudes daughter is missing in LA and he spends his entire time there watching Blitzø do a sitcom performance, like bruh

[@ScorpSteed]

@@IcyDiamond There’s a lot of telling and not showing. Seeing Stars is the second episode that features Octavia in a prominent role as well as a focus on her relationship with Stolas, and instead of showing Stolas have any major revelation about what his daughter is going through, the show focuses mostly on Stolas and Blitz, something that every episode Stolas is in focuses on. Granted, Stolas probably couldn’t have left Blitz alone in a new, possibly dangerous area, but he definitely felt too happy-go-lucky and flirtatious with Blitz while his only child’s whereabouts were unknown.

[@Laxhoop]

I remember being shown it by my friends, and I said “So… It’s Family Guy, but well animated?” And they got so mad at me. Cut to a week later, and Viv literally admits that she thinks just saying a curse word counts as a joke, and I have never felt so vindicated.

[@blknmongl342]

Modern Family Guy is a tragedy, but the ironic memes about it are top tier.

[@BBWahoo]

@@blknmongl342 Oh god yes, the only saving grace of FaGuy are the ironic memes

[@blknmongl342]

@@BBWahoo I find it funny, how a bunch of strangers on the internet make funnier family guy jokes than "professional comedians".

[@missshaye6591]

Family guy is just its own tier of garbage nothing deserves to be compared to it

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

@@blknmongl342 Yeah. Family Guy went into decline over the years and became a staple to every adult animation is all about, but the Family Guy memes are the saving grace.

[@2l84me8]

9:56 They don’t get human disguises because the show’s writers want to milk the fan’s expectations as much as possible when they finally show them off in a trailer teaser. Helluva Boss has no direction, it just strings its audience along for as much as possible.

[@alfdefolf]

revisiting this video now is crazy because every criticism of the show got arguably ten times worse at this point in time

[@alfdefolf]

especially with stolas and blitz jesus fucking christ dude this show is driving me crazy it’s like a trainwreck

[@Jdudec367]

worse how?

[@Jdudec367]

@@alfdefolf I dunno...I mean Stolas and Blitz being a mess is the point, I don't see how that's bad writing.

[@kawaiielephant7772]

A lot of these plot holes are actually answered or could be easily inferred from the other answers but the biggest problem with Vivziepop's shows are that most questions are answered in live streams and interviews you have to scour through rather than the actual show It should be common sense to put your answers IN the actual show since it feels really lazy to answer in live streams after the fact since it gives off the vibe that you're making it all up but this is what a lot of indie and even industry creators are doing nowadays 🙄

[@MrJoeyWheeler]

yeah, that's a failing. The show itself needs to answer it (or at least other related shows). You can't just answer them in word-of-god sources, that's supposed to be for things that aren't relevant to the overall setting.

[@Jdudec367]

I mean not really...most answers are in the show itself.

[@kawaiielephant7772]

@@Jdudec367 I meant the specific questions he poses in this video, like "what happens when demons die?" Since Vivzie said when sinners die, they become a part of buildings or have their consciousness put in inanimate objects, you could just infer the same happens with demons from that, but the show never actually says that

[@BBWahoo]

The only kinda valid excuse you could give is "animation is expensive" but if that's the case, shouldn't you be MORE careful with what you do with that?

[@kawaiielephant7772]

@@BBWahoo even so, if it's expensive then you should care about lore first and foremost 💀 how does this series have FILLER?

[@PegasusAnarchy]

All the female characters revolve around men or have no qualities whatsoever. See the episode of Moxxie’s dad, Vic revealed one of the lackeys’ names because the fandom asked but Moxxie’s mom still has no name 🤡. They could have done some much with Stella but that would call for nuanced writing lol. It’s easier to make her a massive bitch so Stolas isn’t taken accountable for his actions.

[@echotheneko7346]

RIGHT i wish they delved into Stella's character more than she's just born evil

[@Corrector1]

Actually _all_ of Crimson's henchmen had their names revealed on social media, which just makes it more bizarre. Maybe they intend to do an episode fleshing out Moxxie's mother and they're saving her name for that. But even if that's the case, surely her name alone wouldn't be a big spoiler.

[@chunkiemilk5197]

THANK YOU I'm so sick of these stolitz stans justifying how ass Stella was written. Especially the youtubers.

[@chunkiemilk5197]

@Estefany G i aint reading all that

[@chunkiemilk5197]

@Patrick I see, I mean I don't even hate Helluva or Viv I've been watching her since like 2012. my comment deadass just said I disliked one aspect of how they handled stolitz 😭(A RELATIONSHIP I LIKE BTW)

[@CheesenMac123]

Honestly, I don’t mind how they’re writing Stella. I understand she’s getting the short end of the stick, but I personally find this more interesting than Stella just wants to kill her husband because he cheated in a loveless marriage. I think some sort of change was necessary for the writers to actually make a shift into the story they want to tell with Stolas and Blitzo. The issue is they didn’t think it through enough before.

[@WildWolfGod]

They sold me on the premise that they'd be running around in the human world killing people for hire and it ends up being like 3 episodes in the himan world that kind of check those boxes. Every other episode is personal or interpersonal stuff I don't care that much about. I signed on for a kinda funny show about violence but I'm getting sappy romance and trying to make it into tragic characters when they don't need to be.

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

Also something about Luna in s2e2: she is overly aggressive and dismissive of Blitz's feelings, but in the end she gives pep talk to Octavia about how fathers love their daughters even if they f*ck up in a lot of ways and that Octavia shouldn't be too harsh on Stolas. Excuse me, but Luna that episode was shown to be exceedingly harsh on Blitz, despite understanding that he is just doing his best? I believe that final scene makes her look like a massively unlikeable bitch and a hypocrite, even if we disregard the inconsistency of her behaviour compared to her S1 iteration. Am I missing something or is that just bad character writing?

[@briasinterlude1755]

Ikr, I’m sick of people saying it’s in-character for her. They only say that because of the pilot.

[@redguyslave409]

Oh no it is bad character writting. All Blitz ever did for her was love her, give her a home, give her more freedom than other hellhounds in this society, and potentially saved her life by adopting her even though she was almost a fully grown adult! And how does she show gratitude? By violently beating him, playing the victim, and manipulativley guiltrips him into getting what she wants. I'm also sick of the fans say "sHe HaS hEr ReAsOnS", name one. Name one good reason why Loona should be excused for beating her father. Because he said he might replace her? I'm sorry but after Loona made him play her sick game for so long, you just expected him to say another comforting thing? Like he said, it's tough love. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk 😊

[@mariposa9734]

And even right after that talk she kicked Blitzo in the groin. It would have been better if after that convo she would have reflected on her own behavior towards her dad and tried to better herself, but they just decided to go back to their usual dynamic. They do this with every episode. The characters learn a lesson in one episode, but then go back to their old selves the next. Helluva Boss should have stayed episodic instead of trying to follow an actual storyline, it works so much better that way.

[@johnniefinney3266]

@@redguyslave409 if gaslighting and narcissism was a character

[@redpanda6497]

@@johnniefinney3266 Her behaviour is definitely terrible, but how is it gaslighting? It's a very specific form of manipulation. Some people just throw it around like it means nothing on the internet so I don't blame you for not knowing it.

[@dontshootmex5588]

The worst thing imo about all this is that the fanbase just has no critical thinking ability whatsoever. They'll excuse everything and attack everyone for pointing out issues. It's an awfully toxic place where every person with a "wrong" opinion gets either bullied or completely silenced. I'm glad I'm out of there. Not having a good feeling about Hazbin after all this, especially since they fired most of the original voice actors.

[@ghost2inkling229]

Not fired most resigned

[@dontshootmex5588]

@@ghost2inkling229 Not being asked to return and getting replaced is very much being fired.

[@ghost2inkling229]

@@dontshootmex5588 it still is not the same thing

[@Birdyboys]

@@ghost2inkling229yes.. yes it is

[@ghost2inkling229]

@@Birdyboys nah it ain't the definition of being fired is being forcefully resigned by employer but Viv didn't fire or forcefully resign the VA she only chose to use newer ones that's all damn yall some idiots

[@skyxclouds3765]

Thank god im not the only one who doesnt love Stolas and Blitzo's relationship. I keep seeing people praising it, talking about how great it is and how they hope they get together since they are perfect for each other. But, as someone who watched this show grow since the pilot, i think the "deveolpment" of this relationship is kinda... poopy. Like, i was so confused when Stolas was introduced as a literal joke, in the pilot and oficial first episode he only made an appareance to say dirty stuff to Blitzo in the phone (im still mad that didnt became a running joke, it was so good), and then out of nothing we have to care about him because "oh no, he is a great parent", "oh no, he is in a unhappy mariagge so that means he does nothing wrong by cheatting", "oh no, he actually cares about his family" and all that bs. And things became worse when, aparentely, its confirmed that he wants something more with Blitzo, that he is now the oficial love interest and the rest of the show will work in their relationship... what? Its seemed that i was the only person who thought all of this was weird. Like, this guy gets introduced as a joke of a few seconds and out of nowhere he becames a "deep character" thats important to the plot and we all should care about, im sorry i cant take that seriously.

[@liselot5932]

I honestly think he had more depth before than now. I liked that he was kinda a creep, clearly had the upper hand in the relation unfairly, was selfish (ignoring via for blitz in ep2 stuff). And needing to learn to work on it, he had MASSIVE flaws. He feels so uwu now. Like for example the affair started with him being drunk and being emo about blitz, aka its not really stolas's fault anymore with this whole affair's start. And now that the romance came out of nowhere :/ I wouldve loved seeing him slowly realizing he saw Blitz as more than a booty call, realizing he had to work on himself before he could go for a romance with blitz. But no.

[@Jdudec367]

it really isn't poopy. It wasn't out of nothing and we naturally care about him and he has personality and such and he isn't a great parent but he is trying to get better as one. No he did something wrong as he still negatively affected octavia and he always cared about his family clearly and it's not bs. That doesn't become worse as that makes sense. Tbh it really isn't weird. It isn't out of nowhere, it takes time for him to develop. Why can't you take that seriously?

[@Jdudec367]

@@liselot5932 Nah he has more depth now really. Nah he still has those flaws really. But it doesn't excuse his behavior. It didn't come out of nowhere...he clearly loved Blitz for more then just sex as he wants to be with him a lot. We literally see that in season 2 episode 1 though.

[@redpanda6497]

@@liselot5932 It could be so intersting to see him actually trying to be a better person instead of somehow being a good person from the start. That doesn't even make sense. He clearly had some really big flaws.

[@D_YellowMadness]

I like what they've revealed it to be more than what it seemed to be before. I just don't like that it seems like they didn't originally plan it that way & I don't want them to actually get together unless the writers somehow find a convincing way for them to fix their toxic behavior toward each other & even then only if after character development, they actually seem to have chemistry.

[@cerabond7650]

Honestly, given all the shit going on at HBO Max and Netflix, I feel like people in the animation community are so desperate for anything that even remotely resembles something of quality that they'll take it and run with it without looking into the flaws of it. Especially when it comes to indie animation, because I feel like people have begun to develop this mantra of "Well it's independent, so SURELY the people behind it *MUST* know what their doing!" With all this in mind, I have a really bad feeling for animation in the future, even with this whole "Indie Renaissance" thing.

[@cerabond7650]

I also for some reason feel like Murder Drones, another independent animated series, is gonna be the next to develop a few of its it's own problems. But that could be just me.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

​@@cerabond7650 For the most part, I think Murder Drones is actually really good, but what about Lackadaisy? Yeah I know it's still a pilot but do you think we should also give that show a chance?

[@kaigrace4071]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1mI think we should lackadaisy is a webcomic that is very loved by its audience. With the pilot and already funded season 1 with 5 episodes I think it’ll be good. Kipo and the age of wonderbeasts was adapted from a webcomic and look how good it turned out albeit it’s from mainstream dreamworks.

[@juuchanIRL]

ok so the stolas-blitz relationship dinamix is simple: vivzy or whoever actually wrote this meant to make their relationship a clear reflection of hell: degenerate, abusive and purely sexual. then, when the relationship became popular with fans, she tried to switch it into "tragic romance" to tap into that public. the plot holes are due to the attempt at fan baiting. the 2 were never meant to be lovers, but now they have to retcon it into being that.

[@brainthebrian3690]

You're talking out your a$$ right now.

[@thewalrus45]

That's not how animation works due to how long it takes, like it or not all of S1 and a good chunk of S2 were written.. before the first episode of S1 premiered (like the Lock in date for the final draft of S2E2 was late 2021 like JUST after the show premiered so earlier drafts and the general layout of the early part of the season was done well before that) . Any major changes directly coming from fan reactions are things you wouldn't see until mid-late S2 or S3 at the earliest. At the time the pilot was written it probably wasn't what they had in mind but by early in the writing of Season 1 it clearly was (and this becomes even more obvious if you followed the instagrams and stuff that were done around that time to promote the show which leaned into that a lot) essentially with most animated stuff the final product you see is the culmination of 2-3 years of work from pre to post production to final release.

[@Zoxiry]

these episodes were in development long before we even got episode 1 tho...

[@mrbusinesss1]

Season 2 was recorded way back in 2020 when season 1 was only at like episode 1 or 2. It's always just been like this, but Viv does come from a background of early 2010s internet fandom culture, so it doesn't really surprise me that much that this is the way the Blitz-Stolas relationship is going. It doesn't bother me THAT much, but I do hope they improve on that later on.

[@Greggers1516]

But when the writers can’t make it clear it’s a reflection of hell it means they don’t have the skills to execute that, and it’s not that easy. Theme and reflections are seen by being consistent throughout the series, whether it is multiple characters or episodes, not just one character dynamic.

[@KayamaKoomori]

I had the same feelings with Stolas since the second episode. I do not understand how they first write him as a sex crazed maniac, then try to pass him off as a good father figure, when his sex addiction is what destroyed his marriage, which is what we seen at the beginning. I feel like they wanna write this show as a pure comedy show, but they wanna add in on all the drama stories that make it more compelling, although they do not know how to juggle the styles together

[@extraordinarymango]

Not to mention that they made that scene of where blitz tries to get the book from stolas by seducing him while stolas was drunk which could be considered as SA, yet they played the scene as a joke to laugh at 😐

[@elsal1353]

Well to be fair, I wouldn't say liking sex means you can't be a Good father, because that's just not true. But I get what you mean with the whole flip flopping between comedy and drama thing.

[@elsal1353]

Also saying Stolas destroyed the marrige when we found out that their marrige never was loving and even abusive on Stellas part is also wrong imo.

[@Sanakudou]

@@elsal1353 that honestly is likely a retcon to fix that problematic aspect of the relationship. In the second episode of season 1 Octavia states they use to be a happy family, with it heavily implied it was only once he started sleeping with imps that things with Stella went bad; there’s even happy family portraits throughout the house. Also no mention of the divorce despite its announcement chronologically happening after Stella sees Blitz leave, Stolas’s behaviour in that season 2 flashback scene doesn’t match at all with his demure/guilty behaviour in season 1 episode 2, hence why many think it’s a sloppy retcon. But if somehow it wasn’t retconned, then they still messed up big time with the writing. The second episode we’re meant to feel sympathetic towards Stolas, but as the critique is saying, they fail to make the audience feel sympathy for him because they don’t provide the necessary context to be able to; that episode presents a happy family until Stolas cheated. You shouldn’t have to wait a whole season to be able to understand why we should care about a cheating husband neglecting his daughter for most the episode. It’d be different if the season 1 episode 2 intentionally wasn’t aiming for us to be sympathetic towards him yet and the role of season 2 would be to make us realise he’s worthy of sympathy after all, but they wanted us to be sympathetic BEFORE season 2, they wanted us to be sympathetic in that exact episode on its own, which is why it’s a writing failure worthy of being pointed out. Many people are going to feel very strongly about media representation of fathers who ruin the lives of their entire family (especially the lives of their children) as a result of cheating, so to make such a character sympathetic you needed that extra context from the start!

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

I don't think it's his love and lust for Blitzo that ruined the marriage, I think it's that his wife is a total psychotic b*tch (KZbin told me I can't say that word...) and he wanted any excuse to get away. I just, don't think anyone here has actually watched or critically analyzed the show in a fair and charitable way. Anyone who's paid attention to the character development and growth could explain this. He's a good father figure to his daughter, but he also likes having sex... a lot. That doesn't exactly make him a bad father, just makes him really really horny. They do kind of know how to juggle the heavy topics and the comedy, I just don't think you've watched the show, just this video and other critique videos, like everyone else here.

[@secretformulathief910]

Finally someone actually giving valid criticism instead of phrasing it because it's new

[@jeremyallen5974]

Or repeating "lol, the fans are fucking retards!" every five to ten seconds

[@herakitty4214]

This seems like a “I have an idea for a plot abut have no clue how to write it” thing

[@duskyer]

I feel like world building was a major issue ever since Hazbin pilot. Solar Sands made a video about it. If you can do whatever you want in hell with nearly no consequences, what's the point in trying to go to heaven? It was mentioned in the show in the scene where Charlie gets laughed at, and I'd honestly laugh at her too. They mentioned the erasure of demons, but they didn't delve far enough into that.

[@everythingslayer_888]

Demons don’t get erased, they can just be killed again and turn into inanimate objects

[@agenttex5973]

@@everythingslayer_888 Demons are erased when killed by An Angel or its weapon.

[@Galvatronover]

Title of the video please ?

[@alieneko_nyo]

ikr?? they literally killed their own show by having Alastor saying that living is a gift and hell is the consecuense of the way you lived, the show literally tells you that you fucked up and you can't go back, you got in hell? you stay in hell...

[@skyxclouds3765]

Solar sands video was one of the only good criticism of the H.H pilot, is a shame that he took it down.

[@tiab4671]

It was the last episode that made me realise this show was more focussed on ships than story WHEN at the end of that episode they say HOW MUCH Stolas cares and has been looking everywhere for Octavia BUT NO! He's wasting his time with his F buddy when his literal daughter has gone missing what a shit Dad and it grinds me that we're lead to believe everything Stolas does is misguided and he's trying his best. Bull SHIT

[@justice8718]

He and Blitz0 are kidnapped by powerful humans to participate in the show. After they finally got of that place, they instantly looked for her.

[@tiab4671]

@@justice8718 It was a movie set Blitzo was kidnapped Stolas tagged along and could have walked away at any point to look for Octavia. It was only when Blitz was safe that he began to look... and well Luna had already found her

[@justice8718]

​@@tiab4671 No. The bodyguards will drag him back into the set because Stalos said he was Blitzo's agent. You also have to remember that Stolas found the exact state and city his daughter was at before he was dragged into the TV Set against his and Blitzo's will.

[@grimp_9]

​@@justice8718The humans of this world are complete idiots, that was showed in S1-6, he could literally avoid them easily, but NOOO.

[@justice8718]

@@grimp_9 Stupidity has drawbacks that makes it hard to abuse it. If idiots with a gun want you to dance, you better dance.

[@purplehaze2358]

As an amateur demonologist, I’m getting pretty tired of finding way too many results for Helluva Boss while researching the various demons of the Ars Goetia.

[@cobraaaaaaaaaaaa]

I bet you found a lot of Fate stuff before though.

[@Regu269]

I thought this n *gga said he was a dermatologist

[@ralfian0234]

hate when google shows me a drunken bard when I'm researching bartobas

[@zackfitz1033]

My question to you is where does one start if they wish to look into demonology such as myself? As looking online kind of works but I feel there are better avenues, any suggestions?

[@krispykreme6082]

* this is how I feel like when I look up Osamu Dazai and find Bungo stray dogs Dazai.

[@otaking3582]

My main problem with Helluva Boss is the musical numbers that just bring the plot to a screeching holt. Apparently the season 1 finale ended up getting skipped with the explanation of "Don't worry, it's just a bunch of useless fluff and not actually important", which just raises more questions than it answers.

[@sandracarnegie2871]

it;s literally a musical, don't wait it if you don't like musicals

[@otaking3582]

@@sandracarnegie2871 I like GOOD musicals. My favorite movie is Nightmare Before Christmas.

[@jakeryan152]

@@sandracarnegie2871problem is that show wasn’t really pushed as a musical

[@alllittlethingzz]

Plus there’s like only a few good songs

[@otaking3582]

@@alllittlethingzz Ikr! Writing decent songs shouldn't be this difficult!

[@milapiepers502]

even if the episode with luna being horrifically out of character was written by a new guy, you would think it would go through at least five or so other people for approval that can tell him hey you got this entirely wrong instead of just shrugging and going sure okay. though if the stories i heard about viviennes horrible work environment from multiple ex-employees are true i understand to some degree

[@aguy4326]

How horrible is it? I haven't heard much about the behind the scenes stuff

[@IcyDiamond]

@@aguy4326 It seems that the stories about the hostile work environment aren’t true, they basically all come from this one girl Erin Frost who either has no evidence for her claims or has stuff that barely matters like her getting stressed out over some chairs she had to animate, with the crew trying to accommodate for her, only for her to not appreciate them and get mad, seems like she has issues of her own that prevents her from pursuing her animation career that she blames on Viv and her crew The other allegations are fishy on whether they ever even worked with Viv or not

[@aguy4326]

@@IcyDiamond ohhhh ok thx!

[@IcyDiamond]

@@aguy4326 If you want more information about this, I’d recommend checking out some of Ayy Lmao’s videos on the subject, he’s a Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel KZbinr, I could link some of his videos if you want

[@aguy4326]

@@IcyDiamond sure I always love me a bit of animation drama!

[@basedleafeon3221]

Helluva boss' writing is the definition of what I like to call "the highlighted trash bag". You may be able to present a trash bag in the most dramatic, cinematic and emotion inducing way possible, but at the end of the day, it's just a bag of trash. Helluva Boss is great at keeping the entertainment and the audience at edge due to how overly dramatic it makes every single plot-heavy instance, but upon analyzing the writing behind it with a critical mindset, you realize just how bad it is both as an idea and as an execution, all it did is disguise itself as a properly written story through how much it manipulates the average viewer into thinking it was amazing due to how they were caught in the moment of emotion.

[@Masaryk28.10.]

Yea true i got into the "fandom" i really liked it but i never really though about it because EVERYONE was praising it and those who have critisise it were in comments silenced but i stop watching it after season 2 second episode i didnt even finish it because it was so boring and weird and the first episode of the second season felt like a weird fanfict some weird fan wrote because i didnt even make that much sense with the whole story(sorry for my bad english)

[@Jdudec367]

I disagree, it really isn't trash. How is bad as an idea or as an execution? Not really it doesn't manipulate the audience it is genuinely well written at times.

[@basedleafeon3221]

@@Jdudec367 Uhm, I dont wanna sound like an asshole, but you kinda had a stroke and I could not understand a single word that came out of you-

[@SodaFrizz666]

​@@Jdudec367 "i disagree" we know buddy, you do with every single comment that points out the writing flaws

[@Jdudec367]

@@SodaFrizz666 I do that with comments that don't know what they are even talking about actually.

[@mechamanw668]

that point about Millie being an afterthought... well... it's not too far off IMP was originally going to be side characters in Hazbin. Blitzo, Loona and Moxxie have cameos in the pilot too. I don't really remember, but I think it was mentioned that Millie originally wasn't meant to be in IMP until they decided to make it it's own thing

[@thewalrus45]

So, yes Millie was the last character developed for the show. The first two were Blitz and Moxxie (and Stolas but I think he was more of a seperate thing back then but he's in some early preview stuff for HH briefly when they go over the caste and stuff). Vive really liked the dynamic between Blitz and Moxxie and decided to base a show around that, Loona got thought up and Stolas got brought in. Eventually they thought Moxxie needed another character to bounce off of and they wanted a healthy stable relationship to contrast Stolas and Blitz I guess and Millie came to be. And yes as she is now she really needs her own episode. She's fun but some of the supporting cast like Octavia have more fleshed out motivations.

[@IcyDiamond]

@@thewalrus45 Yeah it’d be cool to see what she was like before meeting Moxxie in a flashback episode

[@avivastudios2311]

@@thewalrus45 She doesn't even need her own episode, she just needs to be given something that doesn't have to do with killing.

[@avivastudios2311]

@@IcyDiamond Oh, no. You can't just build your characters with flashbacks.

[@IcyDiamond]

@@avivastudios2311 Why not? I’m not saying it’s the only way to build her character up, I’m just saying it’s an idea

[@k4hoot252]

One of my biggest icks with this show was how they treated Stella. The way it was portrayed in earlier episodes (at least to me) was that Stolas and Stella had at _least_ an okay relationship, but Stolas ended up cheating on her and breaking her heart. But no, Stolas can never be at fault because that would ruin our yaoi!!!!

[@jackthenintendofan6480]

I'm not nearly as harsh on the show as you are, but I find all your criticisms absolutely valid, particularly with everything about plot holes. But with that in mind, you forgot arguably the biggest one, which is the fact that at the end of episode 6, Stolas is able to come rescue them WITHOUT THE BOOK. As he opens the portal back to hell, you can literally see it in Loona's hands not being used. This basically throws what was initially the core idea of the show out the window. In episode 5, Stolas says that he needs the book for the festival, but then in the very next episode, he doesn't need it anymore because apparently he can open portals by himself with little effort. Geez, there's a lot about this series that I like, but I don't think you talked about the plot holes enough.

[@KhaosAdmiral]

And then, in the most recent episode Stolas makes note that without his Grimoire his powers are extremely limited.

[@tylere.8436]

Stella went from being the drive of S1E5 to have Striker assassinate her husband Stolas, to wanting to be around him to 'torment him'. Like ok, she gave up on assassinating him then I guess. Or what about the flashback of Blitz in S2E1 taking the grimmoir book, he flat out stole his prized powerful book, but in the very first episode, Stolas said he 'allowed' Blitzo to borrow it. Either we have a missing flashback or the writer forgot that quote.

[@SuperMarioPlush220]

Stolas possessed the dead bodies and had them draw a Portal for him. That's how he did it.

[@ThatTonnatoTenrec]

@@SuperMarioPlush220 That would have been a cool thing, i mean its what i think of demons drawing circles and such... except how did Stolas have contact trough the Human to demon realm to posses a person to draw the circle. Id be fine with that explanation but there is no explanation as to it to how he can do it. As later stated in episodes his power is limited without the book, while its also never stated what his other abilities are or how much power they truly have with or without it. The sole concept of that damned book restricts what actually should be possible and yet its like a dart board of what his capabilities are moment to moment.

[@SuperMarioPlush220]

@@ThatTonnatoTenrec His powers probably work over dimensions

[@kasagure.]

after being bullied out of the fanbase by pointing out most of these same valid criticisms i thought i was at best nitpicking and at worst insane. viewing it from an outside perspective really makes the whole story and plot look pretty slipshod tbh

[@ashy_inking1476]

30:21 I love Bojack Horseman so much and glad you brought it up, I thought perhaps Viv would've took more lessons from this show since she's stated multiple times she loves it so much

[@L-guy]

A lot of people just kind of passively like stuff, but dont really bother to think about WHY they like it and Why it works so well ,exactly...if you're watching anything its infinitely worth thinking about the writers descisions. I've been doing this lately and I think its helped my writing just a tiny bit

[@NintendoMeister2260]

Literally the easiest way to fix C.H.E.R.U.B at least the beginning is having the de-aging machine malfunction instead of their just being a old setting for some reason.

[@Nightman221k]

I just feel like the writing has gotten so indulgent in some of the most common bad fanfiction tropes. Writing the dramatic angsty love story to be all consuming and increasingly dramatic yet falling whim to the what suits creator’s feelings of what would be “hot” rather than having a decent flow of how people generally act. Stoles and Blitz’s relationship feels like an angst fic complete with the yaoi-fangirl tendency to write a female component to the love triangle who is an irredeemable b!tch that has no sympathetic aspects. I also hate how Loona’s expressing herself in physically violent ways is just excused. The whole thing just makes me think of high school writing a lot of the time.

[@eggo3230]

Now that you mention how the love triangle thing was written, how did I never notice that...kinda hope they didn't write her to be cartoonishly harsh so that they could easily make Stolas the "good guy"

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

@@eggo3230 They did. It's clear that they did. This is the easiest shit in the world to notice. It also can be easily seen with how much they sweep under the rug when it comes to Stolas and Blitzo doing some terrible shit. Remember how Blitzo threatened to rape Moxxie and his wife? And then the show wants you to believe that Moxxie wants to be his friend. Yeah. NEVER MAKE YOUR ACTOR A WRITER!!!

[@fortnite5205]

Also why does the show treat stella abusing stolas much more seriously than loona literally BEATING blitz??? Make it make sense

[@Sephus912]

Maybe that new writer guy they hired was only a writer of shitty fanfics and nothing of substance before he worked on the show

[@Nightman221k]

@@Sephus912​​the staff of the show should make sure that the writing is checked over to make sure it’s consistent. It’s no excuse that a director/creator not modify a script to work.

[@Gaia_Gaistar]

I think I can sum up the bad writing bluntly enough. Horny writers. I dunno why no one ever mentions this but it seems to be the main issue with the writing being inconsistent.

[@magma_fire_bagwan]

You're exactly right. Like, the only thing I remember from this show is all sex-related. Plus you have furry bait goddamn 101 with Loona. THAT is the only reason the show has as big of an audience as it does (at least from my view, as someone who has had friends involved in that fandom stuff a while ago).

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

Why is everyone so hung up on how horny this show is? Has anyone that talks about, "Too many sex", actually watched any of the show? It's not terrible writing, it can have instances of good writing and some bad parts as well. There are a LOT of sex jokes in here, that must mean it's just not for you maybe?

[@tastycastle1976]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 I'm also confused, isn't this show supposed to be in Hell? Where everyone is horrible? Sex is a primal desire of humanity and an origin of many sins so it makes sense that many things are sexual. Heck, it would be weirder without sexualization)

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

@@Gaia_Gaistar The point of the whole show is to be extremely sexual to begin with, of course it's going to come off as horny. IDK if you really watched the show or not, because it seems like almost everyone here hasn't, because people seem to think saying "Bad writing, not good characters, totally inconsistent" is all you need to say as criticism these days. I don't think you need to write out a complex reason for why you don't like it. But at least watching a little of it would inform you a bit more. By that I mean pay attention and not just scoff at it going "What suck, too horny, it's bad writing". Because it's not terrible writing, it's not excellent and through the roof incredible, but it's not that bad. If you were to take it at face value on this criticism circle jerk of a comment section you'd think they were talking about 50 Shades of Grey.

[@kimifw58]

Yes, thank you. I've seen many a good story ruined by lust.

[@HeteroflexibleMerus]

Yeah it feels like Viv retconned a lot of things in the plot, leading to inconsistencies in the story that she hoped would be ignored. It's clear Stolitz is her die-hard ship and she's willing to bend the plot over backwards and retcon prior information to justify her ship without putting the necessary development to make this work.

[@moondivine2288]

Actually from what I hear the plot isn’t really canon anymore which isn’t anything new. Some shows change from their plot to when the show becomes a main series. Though I agree with your comment to some extent, especially at the ending of the last helluva boss episode I also disagree. Some things that people commonly complain about have been hinted at since season 1 and it didn’t come out of nowhere. I do think Stolas and Blitz will still have a lot of character development left stolas is going to give him a crystal

[@maffe_distroyer]

Like the crazy fujoshi she use to be

[@D_YellowMadness]

@@moondivine2288 You accidentally said "plot" instead of "pilot".

[@bags.]

Thinking the Circus retcons how Stella was at all in s1 is insane to me

[@Depths17]

I literally thought the same thing after the pilot! IMP's targets could potentially want revenge on the company itself and yet we haven't seen anything like that so far. Blitzo mentions more than once to clients how the person they want killed could just end up in hell anyway. What measures do they take to ensure they're safe from pissed demons that they kill for clients? Really wish they'd mention it in some form

[@jvstice56]

Finally, an honest and balanced criticism of Helluva Boss's writing that wasn't scathing or insulting. I agree with a lot of these issues. Inconsistency is often the fatal shot to a lot of writing, and can or will get people to up and leave before its conclusion. Stolas definitely across as that, and the additions 201 made only painted Stella as evil because they didn't want to paint the relationship between Stolas and Blitz as "bad". Problem is, it also turns Stella's very justified rage against Stolas (who let Blitz take a book he wasn't meant to have) into "eh, she's just an evil (bleep)". IMO, the show needs to have Viv sit down and develop more than just basic character traits for the main cast, plus narrow the focus _to_ said main cast. It'll help with things down the line and keep things consistent. Adding superfluous things or too many unresolved threads can and often will cause even more confusion down the line.

[@princesspumpkin9900]

I agree with this and im actually scared that Hazbin Hotel might end up like this but hopefully a24 doesn't let that happen (becauuse money !!!)

[@Megalicous]

Omg i literally love you for some reason everyone always blames her for everything as if stolas isn’t a horrible person himself ☠️☠️ and not only that I feel like the only reason she was even created was to be the straight girl who wants to ruin the gay ship it’s so weird

[@JackedThor-so]

As a fan of this show, this is definitely one of the better critiques I've seen. I'll admit I didn't 100% agree with everything / had different takes on certain elements of the show, but overall see a lot of the critique and think its valid.

[@k.a._135]

Same. It's a solid review regardless of how much we agree/disagree with it

[@JackedThor-so]

@@k.a._135 My direct comparison is the horrendous Diregentleman review of season 2 episode 1. I was stunned how much basic information they got wrong.

[@thelordoflemonz]

@@JackedThor-so I agree with Just A Robot, when he called Diregentelman; PKRussle 2.0. Those guys aren't as smart as they like to pretend, and it's clear from day 1, that they don't like Vivziepop's work and dump on it frequently.

[@momoko6917]

I wish they had written stolas and Stella as a couple that just fell apart over time and not as a forced marriage Edit: am i the only one who thinks that now the show is trying to justify the fact that stolas cheated on his wife with the circus episode? Like dude,stolas you fucked up

[@1221-g5f]

It would’ve been better that way too! We would’ve had a much better reason for Stolas’s guilt about the affair, and we could understand where Stella was coming from, with her hiring striker. Making Stella evil doesn’t subtract from Stolas’s wrongdoings, he still did them! Why does this show have to try to make him blameless. He’s a bad person just like the rest! Let the birb be bad! It fits the show!

[@1221-g5f]

@analaurafragahernandez7526… cope?

[@Syphrilyn]

@@1221-g5f FR Stella is just a scapegoat and it felt so fucking lazy and not interesting at all. And then I watched a video about someone's critic on Stella and everyone disagreed with "well bad people don't need reasons they can just be bad" yeah I agree Stella doesn't need to sympathizable, but justifying stolas actions and making him look like a saint is so lame... They can both be assholes.

[@theamazinggarbage3209]

@@Syphrilyn the story never tried to make him look like a saint.

[@acejascent]

@@theamazinggarbage3209 compared to stella? yea. cause it's pretty clear she just wanted to make Stolas suffer before and after the affair and she's only mad he slept with someone of lower class and ruined her image, otherwise (at least implied) she wouldn't really have cared

[@charlie8829]

Update here a year later and I LOATHE Stolas character. He’s manipulative asf and no one seems to care, or they try to justify it by villainizing blitz or Stella. He seems sympathetic at first but the more I think about it the more insulting and condescending he seems. Like no blitz isn’t secretly in “wUv” with stolas he seems uncomfortable everytime we see him with stolas and the whole arrangement seems like sexual coresion to me

[@rhopalosera9772]

b-b-but stella bad? he sings?

[@nasrinnski]

The 180° they went w Stolas as a character is the reason I dropped the show lmao

[@DrAngelKins]

Well, even Blitz called him out too. Stolas sucks man

[@montserratmarroquin400]

Stolas is the reason why I just cannot watch the show anymore You have no idea how exited I was for Apology Tour but when I clicked the episode I got bombarded with his yapping

[@kilowyatt1107]

I think it always be funny that the entire show is about complex characters while Stella is the most one note characters

[@Barakon]

Was writing Stella as a narcissist who lashes out when she doesn’t get what she wants really that hard?

[@yeetneet]

Most people don't want to write abusive characters with complexity. It's easier to just use an abuser as a plot device for romantic drama, shock value, or a way to stir up sympathy from the audience.

[@BitchboyOzzie]

@@yeetneet also that isn't how abusive people act all. This is all speaking from experience. There's phases and stuff.

[@yeetneet]

@@BitchboyOzzie Yeah 100%. Instead of actually being deep and meaningful (at least writing wise, It's clear in every other department that things have more effort put into them), the show is just shallow, especially when they just pick and choose when abuse is and isn't supposed to be taken serious depending on if they are the writer's pet character or not. It's insulting. If the show wasn't trying to be all "deep" and tackle relationships and abuse I wouldn't think Stella was such a badly written character. But since they want me to take her ""abuse"" seriously, they don't have an exuse for making her so flat when abusers are pretty layered in real life. (On a side note, I wish Stolas had stayed a rich, creepy asshole as this point considering how much all this poorly written drama surrounding Stoolshit and Bitcho have derailed everything.)

[@BitchboyOzzie]

@@yeetneet also Luna is shown to be *physically* abuse to Blizto and it's played off for laughs. It honestly made me sick to my stomach because I was physically abused and seeing that my trauma was a joke just hurt and really made me despise the show as a whole.

[@yeetneet]

@@BitchboyOzzie Yeah, I feel you there. At least we have Arcane S2 to look forward to.

[@starrie818]

I have a major issue with the way they portray heaven and the angels simply because it means theres not really a good ending for hazbin. Everyone in heaven sucks and none of the hazbin characters would be happy there. It's funny or whatever, but it makes Charlie's whole motivations pointless she's not really saving them

[@V0C4L01D_forever]

Facts

[@kieran_x3918]

Idk, I feel like you can still have a good story without a happy ending. The futility of Charlies work could be really interesting to explore if the writing doesn’t fail it

[@kimifw58]

That's because adult cartoons can't show Christian concepts in a positive light. That's been a rule since 2005.

[@sakuraneko2595]

@@kimifw58 well yeah and this is a show literally about Hell being portayed as a modern day society and all the characters are demons, which in that self is quite sacreligous, since hell is supposed to be a place where people are punished. But I get that Heaven should be potrayed as a good place.

[@js66613]

To be honest, heaven doesn't need to be good, but like, Hell is made out to be something of a twisted paradise in a way, and then, even if you don't "get better" or "get saved", you just die, and that's that. There's no eternal suffering if you're dead-dead. Also, Charlie's journey could be one where she realises she's just as wrong as the demons but in a different way; that she's damning them by making them suitable for a horrid place, while at the same time her intentions are good, because well, she's trying to help them, and during the time the series takes place, the characters really do become better in all the important ways, just not good enough for the place that heaven is in that universe. As for how they would avoid erasure this way... I suppose they'd have to write an alternate solution. But considering that series hasn't been updated in goodness knows how long... we may never get some kind of well-thought out ending. Doesn't even have to be a happy one, just one that is satisfying because it makes sense. I don't think portraying heaven as something other than paradise is in and of itself a bad thing. I mean, heaven is really just a human concept that is a reward for acting certain very specific and contradictory ways, so why should it be for everyone? Why should ending up in heaven necessarily be equated to a happy ending. But, equally, if it's not written well, the idea of them being screwed over either way isn't going to satisfy people either. Execution matters... but execution of anything but the art is somehing that Viv doesn't seem the most skilled at.

[@RavenStarMedia]

"Is it about f***ing wacky Wally Wackford?!" Me: *laughs in Season 2 episode 6 where Blitzo's traumatic injuries were caused by Wally dropping a cake*

[@oswaldfriedman7116]

Vivzie Pop’s biggest weakness in all of her projects is too many characters she doesn’t want to focus on. It’s more prominent in Hazbin Hotel with all the staff + demon nobility, but even with a 4 person main cast if she’s not interested in exploring them a character is just there most of the time. If the show was just Blitzo, Moxxie, and Stolas with Millie and Loona as occasional side characters it would probably be stronger

[@ryuspiritvtuber]

See this is why I backed out on Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss. They don’t know how to make a good writing and give any character development like Millie, but instead make new characters with no personality or give us backstory, jumble the plot that makes absolutely no sense and just makes me feel uncomfortable. The creators especially Vivienne needs to choose between focusing on the Imps as a whole or Blitz and Stolas’ relationships, that’s all they have to do!

[@frogglen6350]

it's a free to watch animated adult show. Yet you watch this generic commentary channel that has no actual talent....

[@eestifan4ever]

@@frogglen6350 lmao but it means that you've watched this "generic commentary channel that has no actual talent" too, right? :)

[@caseysshenanigans708]

@@frogglen6350 You say that like you're an established critic who can praise the show for everything in it. Why don't you indulge us? :)

[@frogglen6350]

@Casey's Shenanigans didn't just stop stalker LS mark and leak private information? Maybe try firming your own opinions instead of parroting weirdo youtubers

[@sweet_tea_lover2470]

My biggest problem with the world building in both shows is that sinners are confined to the pride ring, that limits the locations in Hazbin Hotel to one ring, this also means that the Helluva Boss will probably be the only way we'll get the lore for the other rings, but since it's a comedy show that probably ain't happening

[@billcipher8645]

Maybe it's not restricted in like "physically impossible" way but "highly illegal" way. Still it would be nicer if it was said up front

[@jazzyqueen4980]

​@@billcipher8645why would legality matter in this setting, tho?