High vs Low POE HUBS Worth It? i9 Hydra vs DT Swiss 240EXP/ 350

[@MortenProm]

Greate video. I'm into low POE. I've gone all the way with Onyx. 0 degree engagement and completely silent :)

[@andrewscasualmtb]

I'm looking into the Onyx. I'm reading about pedal kickback on these things, do you really notice it? The biggest drops I go off of are about 3 feet but there are a lot of rocks on certain trails where I live.

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

​@@andrewscasualmtbit depends on your suspension design, most modern full suspension won't be affected by it.

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

Onyx are good hubs but they tend to slip if you're pushing hard. I had a vesper in the back on my cromo hardtail for about two seasons (8 months) and it was slipping a lot. I could service the clutch but back to DT with a 60t ratchet on all my bikes, mostly for practical reasons and ease of maintenance...

[@andrewscasualmtb]

@@LaurentiusTriarius I ended up getting the onyx vesper and have been extremely happy with it. I haven't noticed any kickback at all on my bike and the silence is the best thing ever. 👍👍

[@50centHotDog]

@@andrewscasualmtbpedal kick comes from the suspension design. Different hubs “hide” the kick differently, usually related to their POE. Onyx are a bit different. The clutch “resets” after every engagement and the sprag clutch has a small amount of flex so it will absorb pedal kick a bit better than other super high Poe hubs. They recommend vespers for lighter riders. Most full size dudes run the classic.

[@andymtb5714]

I upgraded my Trek Fuel EX from 54T to 108T and absolutely love it. Never looked back. It sounds great, but I've also noticed how much better it feels. There's none of that "lag" between cranks, and it makes for smoother engagement. For $27, it was 100% worth it for me. Not sure about 690 POE, but hey I like loud and quick hubs.

[@juffkasvennsson4609]

May i ask where you got the 108 teeth cogs for the dtswiss hub? I thought dtswiss only does 54

[@andymtb5714]

@juffkasvennsson4609 you would be correct, DT Swiss does only 54T I believe. The hub I have and that I was referring to is the Bontrager rapid drive hub, stock with most Trek bikes. You can upgrade it from 54T to 108T with Bontrager's upgrade pawls and springs.

[@cgmtb245]

Simply put, I love high engagement hubs. Since moving to the hydra, high POE is critical when pushing through technical sections. If the loud buzzing is too much, I would suggest an Onyx hub as they are silent and have instant engagement. I’m used to the pedal kickback and have grown to not worry so much about my suspension being hindered, rather enjoying myself out on the trail with a loud, high engagement hub is what I love!

[@taylorstarcevic1015]

Hail Hydra?

[@devincrighton4376]

Agree, I have ridden both I9s and Onyx hubs and they are both amazing. After riding them for many years if I rent a bike with a DT240, the lack of engagement points is extremely noticeable on techincal climbs or climbs with lots of rocks to catch a pedal on where you may have to back pedal to retime your stroke. This is super common where i live and ride, Arizona, Utah, Nevada. I think if you ride somewhere this isn't an issues you could probably be comfortable with the DT240s.

[@XCRiders]

@@devincrighton4376 I have i9 torch hubs on 2 of my bikes and dt Swiss 180 hubs 36 poe on my race bike and Its high enough engagement to back pedal through tough sections. The sound is awesome too

[@MikemoRides]

You can put freehub grease in the i9 and make it almost silent. I just serviced mine with grease and I can't even hear it while riding now.

[@db_cooper3941]

That loud POE sound freaked out security guard at my work one evening when I was rolling my bike down the hallway. He was convinced I was walking up to his outpost firing off a taser. I want to try the onyx hub too for the silent trail experience but $$$$.

[@marcandrecoutu4798]

I find I prefer the feel of instant engagement on my Hydra hubs, but can't say that it's helped my climbing game. We are in the realm of diminishing returns here... I'd say the same for my carbon hoops.

[@lazylearner967]

When I first put on my carbon hoops, they felt more snappy to me. Pumping out the the corners seemed to really accelerate compared to my OEM hoops. (that feeling might have all been from my head to justify the expense) But most "upgrades" are for one's ego, not for better riding or faster lap times.

[@przygodyzmtb]

Come on, Hydra is just cool AF and its the most useless thing you can buy. :D But the sound is imo worth every penny.

[@gunny6517]

Great Review & Explanation…. When I upgraded my wheel set to Bontrager LineComp 40’s (Trek 2021 Roscoe 6), I also upgraded the hub to 108T, which made a HUGE difference for me and I don’t foresee “ME” needing anything better.. 🇺🇸

[@RiddleKingOnline]

I'm glad you touched on this. Rear suspension only works as designed when pedal kickback (i.e rider weight against the kickback) and braking are not inhibiting it. As a dual suspension guy, less points of engagement is absolutely key to getting better suspension, as is knowing when to get off the brakes and let your suspension do its job. I recommend everyone tries a) taking the chain off for a run and experience zero kickback, and b) jump up and down on your bike with the brakes on then again with them off to see how much it jams up your travel.

[@paradox963]

A high POE hub will definitely show the weak spots in a suspension design, pedal kickback can be almost eliminated with proper suspension design.

[@doxisch]

@@paradox963 define proper. There are always compromises to be made and a downhill oriented heavy Enduro may have different design priorities than an XC bike. The perfect suspension design does not exist ...

[@That.Guy.]

I ride a giant Trance-X that doesn’t have those problems due to the superior suspension Design

[@Phlizz]

It’s important to understand that there is unlikely any pedal kickback while you’re riding, the backwheel is rotating forward allowing the cassette to rotate as well without resistance to counteract the the impulse on the cranks by chain growth. Only on harsh low speed impacts the amount of chain growth would be to high with to little distance for the cassette to move and it would engage eventually causing a force on the cranks that is noticeable. What most riders mistake for pedal kickback is the uncontrolled movement of the chain in harsh terrain. The, often counteracting, wave like movements of the chain cause all kind forces to disturb ride feel and suspension performance. I found this discussed in detail by a Trek suspension engineer. Actually all full suspension bikes would benefit from a chain guide keeping the chain as controlled as possible. unfortunately chain guides are mainly associated with the purpose to hold the chain on the sprockets and futher with DH or freeriding.

[@piciu256]

I totally agree, tested it myself, swapped my 51t steel cassette for a single cog and I've eliminatet pretty much all the pedal feedback, chain itself still rattled around obv, however, it could spin the freewheel as it pleased without all that inertia, I'm gonna see how much difference STFU makes in that regard, cause swapping to a singlespeed is not something I want to bother with often.

[@Phlizz]

@@piciu256 👍Im also thinking about getting STFU. There is a cool video showing the difference (camera mounted on drop out showing the chain).

[@piciu256]

@@LoveMTB not mine either, but it worked well at a bike park, no risk of destroying an expensive low hanging derr either.

[@EnglertRacing96]

Uhh chief, how about during braking, when wheel speed is slower than ground speed, you want pk hop aboard a mondraker summum with 300% antisquat at top out and grab some brake through some braking bumps, you'll quickly retract your statement.

[@Phlizz]

@@EnglertRacing96 agreed! It’s a real thing. DH/park on long travel bikes has it’s own requirements. There’s a reason for freewheel cranksets and „no-sprocket-gear“ on a cassette. My comment only applies to mid travel bikes and „regular“ trail riding, which is supposedly the majority of what people have and do.

[@ThunderStruckMTB]

For me, my 36T 350s are perfect. I love the sound, ease of maintenance, bullet proof reliability and the 10* of engagement is just fine. I have the newest versions of the 350 with the classic ratchet and not the EXP version, and if DT ever changes all of their hubs to the EXP style, then I'll go back to hope hubs. I don't like riding with someone with I9s, much less having that sound on my own bike.... just not my thing. I have been looking into an Onyx hub as total silence would be amazing, but their reliability issues and price has so far kept me on 350s.

[@piciu256]

Bruh, hope hubs are much louder and more annoying than I9, aspecially the new hydras. Even my friend who is pretty much a Hope fanboy admits that he doesn't like how his Hope sounds.

[@piciu256]

@@LoveMTB yeah, but he said he doesn't like the noise that an I9 (I assume older models) hub makes, but he like Hope, that doesn't make sense 🤔

[@ThunderStruckMTB]

@@piciu256 Different pitches and tones grate on people's nerves differently.

[@piciu256]

@@ThunderStruckMTB I9 Torch, Novatec XD642 (and similar) and Hope to my ears sound pretty much the same, really similar noise level and almost identical note, as in really annoying to my ears, just an obtrusive sound if you get my meaning, I9 Hydra IRL is much smoother sounding, none of this loud pinging the 3 mentioned do.

[@piciu256]

I love how the e*13 dh hubs sound though, too loud for my taste still, but the note is just amazing, slow, low clicking.

[@mikaeloja7060]

I have the DT 350 Hub with 54 tooth ratchet. I have tried the 36 tooth aswell but I ended up going with the tighter engagement. Love your videos man 👌🏻

[@hansonwang2121]

Good stuff! I came from a 108 POE hub to a 75 POE hub and do in fact notice a difference when riding. I’m sure in a few months I’ll get use to it, but I am really tempted to get another 100 or above POE hub I’m just so use to near instant engagement.

[@danielg3078]

I love high engagement and loud hubs just for the sound alone. Being able to ratchet backwards it’s always a plus but I go for sound alone

[@ToddNZMTB]

It's pretty cool that you can replace the innards if the hub without needing a whole new one.

[@SpencerBaum]

I went from a stans neo hub, with 5 degrees of engagement to an Onyx vesper, which has basically instant engagement and while the difference isn't massive (probably because th stans hubs are pretty good anyway) I still really can notice it and I much prefer the quick engagement. Pedaling between features and getting up tricky climbs is much more immediate

[@jeffroper5943]

The stans neo hub is such garbage. I broke 6 of them in one year. The pawls and bearings would get crushed and destroyed almost immediately. One of the worst mtb products i've had to deal with.

[@Bonanno13]

I have an Onyx on my single speed full SUS bike and a 5-degree Stan's hub on my XC. The zero is much better in technical, slow speed work like riding a single speed uphill. I like the 5 degree for faster riding mostly because of free play in the hub. It really does soak up some of the feedback to your feet. I feel that it is important when standing on the pedals for a long time. Also, the Onyx is dead silent, I surprise hikers and runners quite often, especially when they have headphones in. The noise of hubs is helpful on multi use trails.

[@sluette]

The engagement angle of the I9 is very impressive, but you should also keep in mind that this is only achieved because only one of the six pawls is engaged. With spur gearing, the entire wheel is engaged, which makes a much gentler power transmission possible.

[@se4g4e]

Not quite true. Hydra hubs engage multiple pawls as torque is applied. It's not just riding on one pawl.

[@dylan-5287]

Awesome video as always. My FS bike came with vitus brand hubs with 72 poe and they've been great. Basically double the poe of the hub on my Marin hardtail. I really want to try those silent onyx hubs. I love a loud hub like the I9 but I've heard it's an amazing experience with silent hubs, you get to hear every bit of the tires hooking up with the ground.

[@dylan-5287]

@@LoveMTB I'll check it out. Love all your review videos!!

[@believe8263]

Once you go silent you'll never go back. One of my bikes has Chris King hubs and the other has Onyx hubs. I now dislike the noise of the Chris King hubs. People come up to me and say they like that sound but it wears on you mentally hearing that whine whenever you're coasting.

[@polishguywithhardtospellna8227]

@@believe8263 i found that grease really isn't as scary as marketed on classic engagement hubs. I get some qietness after every service, untill the grease breaks down -rather quickly

[@dylan-5287]

@@believe8263 I never get tired of a loud hub but I'm for sure doing onyx if I upgrade. I love that sound when you're cornering hard and the tire makes that whipping sound. I can only imagine how nice it is to constantly hear the tire. I'm guessing it helps a lot with knowing when you're about to lose traction too.

[@believe8263]

@@dylan-5287 Yeah there's times when I think I might be at the limit in a corner and my tires make no sliding noise. I go back and do it faster and sure enough plenty of traction. I now know to trust what I hear. I could never do that before because my hubs drowned all other sounds.

[@rohanjs.]

I moved from 36 to 180 POI on my trail bike, sounds great, and it’s so nice having almost instant power on the pedals. Never looked back.

[@RichSera2-qm5rl]

Amazing! What hub is that?

[@jamesmorwood6373]

I went from garbage wheels and flat pedals to carbon wheels with 108 Poe and noticed just as much advantage on the downhill as I did the uphill. No pedal slop when moving adjusting the pedals and being glued to the bike made my climbs feel 25% better and the descents probably 15% better.

[@m0nss7erKill]

I just hate loud hubs. The 36t of my 240 hubs is pretty good, and I dont really want to upgrade, because its gonna be noisy AF. Even the 36 is getting annoying sometimes. The 18t might be a bit too low POE, for me. I have my bike for 4 years now, and I bought it 2nd hand. It came with ex1501 wheels. I just replaced my rear bearing after.... 15-20k km enduro, mud, rain, snow, ice etc.. And the bigger contact surface of the ratchet is way more reliable imo. I cant really see how can you brake it. While I've seen plenty of fucked up paw hubs. I would love to try Onyx sprag clutch.

[@gernottoventile_mtb]

Have the 54T ratched in the DT 350 rear hub. Works a charm and sounds awesome.

[@stevent1565]

I do primarily enduro mtb. All i can say is once i went with a fast engagement hub, there is no going back. If there is any pedal kickback, i never felt it. I guess if u doing mainly dh riding, engagement wldnt matter as much. But i do feel a big difference when i ride my 8° engagement hub bike to my 3° engagement hub bike especially in technical climbs n sprinting out of corners etc. Feels so much nicer.

[@rollinrat4850]

High POE doesn't make any difference until you're riding very slow and ratcheting your pedals to avoid pedal strike through rocks and logs. High engagement might arguably offer more driver strength at the cost of complexity and easily lost tiny parts. Less engagement hubs like DTs 36 tooth star ratchet offer incredible well known strength unless they are abused and IGNORED by strong riders. The most important part of any hub is bearing quality and adjustability for preload and wear. We roll on bearings constantly! Chris King is the only manufacturer who makes their own surgical quality beatings. Their bearings are renowned to last decades with minimal maintenance! His driver mechanism is claimed to withstand 600 horsepower. More than many race cars! For lower cost hubs, what makes them last a long time is adjustability for preload and wear, to allow the bearings to function best, but especially, REGULAR MAINTENANCE. Everything wears out. You can't ignore your junk! Most 'high end' hubs use off the shelf radial contact carrridge bearings that can't ever be adjusted. They can't really be serviced without compromising the seals. You use them until you can't tolerate grittiness or looseness. Then you overhaul the hub and throw the cartridges away.

[@stevent1565]

@@LoveMTB generally yea but look into spanks hex hubs.. 102 poe 3° degrees engagement . Used to be less thn usd 200 now gone up to usd250 for rear boost. Front is need be usd 130. Been using it for 2 years now n its holding strong after much abuse as well in the mud. Easy to home service n most parts can be replace. So far mine only required the routine cleaning n re- greasing proven to be very reliable for me.

[@weedfreer]

@@rollinrat4850 I found that the DTSwiss rear hubs are an absolute BREEZE to service. I even upgraded to the 36 tooth (or is there one between that and the 52(?) tooth? 🤔) and even the process for that was easy as peas as well. Growing up, we had no choice…we just had to run what you brung….I’m sure high POE hubs would be great for the climbing I have to contend with round here, however, I’m not going to loose sleep over it with the DTSwiss stuff being so nice to service.

[@rollinrat4850]

@@weedfreer They are very easy to service EXCEPT removing the driven ring in the hub body to replace the bearing under it. Sometimes it's in there ultra tight. Heating up the hub shell with a heat gun can help. Ive shattered the DT tool trying to remove a really stuck one. It was pretty violent and scary. DT parts and suitable bearings are common in most good shops. Ive only seen the star ratchet fail once under a high wattage XC racer who neglected his 'junk'. Ive overhauled numerous dozens of DTs and there's no reason or excuse not to regularly clean and lube the star ratchet. Its super easy and only takes a few short minutes. DT stuff is really nice, but still they use common non maintainable cartridge bearings. Neither are the DT bearings adjustable for preload and wear, so you use the bearings until they're rough, loose and or shot. My old old DT Hugi hub has only required service and bearing replacement once in decades though. At the time, this was among the very best hubs available on the market. As long as you're using high quality German, USA or Japanese made bearings though, you should be fine. Enduro bearings really aren't that great, they're definately not a high end bearing. They're inexpensive replacements that are widely available in shops. As far as I know, the DT star ratchet tooth options are 36, 54 and 72. One common issue with DT's thru axle hubs is that drive side end cap o rings can wear out. When you remove your wheel to fix a tire, the cassette body with the cassette attached might can fall off and maybe drop the ratchets and springs on the trail. Fortunately these don't use teeny tiny pawls and springs! Springs and star ratchets are easier to see or find, but you'd need to know they'll fall out and what to look for should they fall out! Ive had customers who slapped it back together, left parts behind and wondered why the hub failed!

[@weedfreer]

@@rollinrat4850 good job i have ‘a bearing guy’ then 😀👍

[@laurynasjagelo5075]

Something to point out; The wheel doesn't provide as much pedal kickback when the wheel is turning. Rather it is under braking and in big (climbing) cogs at slow speeds is where the effect is noticeable the most. In mid-small sprockets and at high (wheel rotational) speeds the pedal kickback in negligible

[@lazylearner967]

Other than OEM hubs, I have only owned Hadley and Chris King. Kings are really nice and is the only reason I don't sell an old bike with the old 135 rear dropout. Another thing to discuss that is hard to quantify is drag. The Kings seem to have such little drag. I only notice this when cleaning the chain and back pedaling it on the work stand. Kings never need service once you are past the first 1k miles. They just keep going and stay clean. My old king hub has over 15k on it and although I have had the shop open it up 4 times, the grease is clean and bearings feel perfect. Personally I am not a fan of loud hubs. My Kings are far more quiet than most OEM and well as other hubs. I think Onyx is the fastest engagement and is also silent. But I can't get over the weight of that hub.

[@rollinrat4850]

Ive had a similar experience with King hubs. I have an old Rock Lobster custom hardtail that uses the 1st Chris King hub I bought in the '90s. The year King started making hubs. This frame has 135mm spacing, both canti posts and a disc brake mount. Im still using v brakes so I can use my old CK non disc wheel. I own 7 King hubs. There is well more than 250000 miles ridden on my King hubs over 28 years. Ive NEVER replaced a single bearing! Ive serviced over a hundred abused CK. hubs for my customers. Ive never replaced a single bearing. Ive bought used and abused CK hubs the sellers thought were wrecked. I overhauled them and brought them back to life. Again, no need to replace bearings on these. Buying used CK hubs is the greatest value of all! I completely disassemble and overhaul my CK hubs maybe every other year. I clean and relube the driver once or twice yearly, depending how much I ride a particular hub. I can feel and hear when my hubs require service. Im a retired medical and aerospace machinist. I was also a mechanical inspector in high reliability type industries . Nobody's fooling me! Now I wrench in a high end shop for fun. I see how everything lasts and what requires service more often. I see warranties and recalls on all sorts of cheap quality, overpriced bike junk! More than a thousand bikes go through my stand in a year. Ive precision inspected the bearing fits on all my CK hubs. Kings are near perfect, well within accepted industry standards. These hubs are in a different quality universe compared to most other overpriced hubs. Everything about them is well engineered and designed to last and last.

[@mitchmoe6224]

So, what you are saying is the I9 hub has 30 minute of angle engagement vs dt Swiss having 600 minutes of angle of engagement....big difference! Thank you for the video

[@iffy_too4289]

I just bought Spank Hex hubs with 3 degrees engagement. They're priced really well, comparable to DT Swiss 350. I would love to tell you what they're like but I haven't built them up yet. I'm really excited to see what they're like after running 36 POE Deore hubs for the last year.

[@lonh8554]

High engagement is best for any technical riding, up or down. Anyone who rides King or I9 hubs would know in an instant. Once you spend time on high POE hubs, it's hard to go back to Shimano or DT Swiss type hubs.

[@streamdreams]

I have 36T on my trek road with ERC wheels and its great. But i moved to 54T for my Orbea Tera gravel bike and that is amazing. i also have 54 on my XC hard tail but that just a fun bike, i am not a hard gore MTW warrior. - nice vid mate.

[@paradox963]

Living where I do there are a lot of flat trails but a lot of them are tight and twisty. And this is where I notice the slop in low POE hubs, when you are constantly having to get on and off the power and may only have time for one or two pedal strokes before the next corner. I think like many things in mountain biking ignorance is bliss, you don't know what you're missing till you try it, then you can't go back.

[@marekzmazur2077]

I still have a set of 18 Poe 3-pawl dt 370s. On those I definitely feel the distance the crank travels when I get back on the throttle. And how hard the pawl hits when it engages. I would love to try the hydras 😍

[@johnnyweekend]

Fabulous technical video with great visuals. Would be cool if you can spin both hubs so we can see if all those engagements result in a higher drag coefficient resulting in fewer wheel revolutions. I would add if pedal kickback is an issue it can be completely eliminated simply with an 'O-Chain' 👌🏻

[@johnnyweekend]

@@LoveMTB Thanks for your reply! I agree 100%. I cannot confirm the long term reliability on the O-Chain, nor do I feel that huge of a difference when it comes to pedal kickback. And I do believe bikes that have a high pivot/pulley might be reducing pedal kickback by 10% but end up creating a list of new reliability issues, not to mention the extra pound of using a longer chain. IMO, pedal kickback can help riders with an average cadence. For the drag comparison, I would also agree that it'd be quite difficult to be accurate.

[@aznvinsanity]

I think in my opinion as high engagement as you can get is a must when traction can be an issue. If its muddy or if youre like me who also commutes in the winter regardless of there being snow or ice on the ground. I would struggle without high POE because when your rear slips at some point that momentum transfer and the brief moment of acceleration on the pedal can cause your rear to slip even more. I've wiped out before and had near slips in icy or really slick situations. If you arent dealing with that sort of terrain high POE is a Nice to have. Not a NEED to have.

[@mikeunderwater1]

Great video. Your channel is one of the few that goes far beyond the simple and subjective rider's impressions, to get into really technical and clearly explained details. in my opinion it is one of the best channels, if not the best, of tests and technique. Thanks and ... Cheers guy! Cheers!😉

[@numbers7905]

I've been running RaceFace Vault hubs that have about 3 degrees of engagement. They engage quickly enough to make them feel very responsive but don't have a "direct drive" feel. I haven't had an issue with kickback, and love the snap.

[@LoveMTB]

For me anything g better than 10 deg is good so I would be happy with 3 deg

[@stephenkohler3472]

I think it mostly comes down to what you're used to. Thanks for the non-biased video... Nice to see the Berd wheels too!

[@angruwasp8782]

I used to love loud hubs but then I commuted on one for two years. Silence is gold. No more bee swarm behind me.

[@Stengell]

Changed my DT swiss ratchet from 36 to a 54 with 150mm rear travel and i only have positive things to say.. for me it actually feels like it gives less kickback, sure i know this isn't true but the fact that there is less give in the system, means that the kick back is less jarring and is more predictable(the reset after the kickback). So far the upgrade has been solid and money well spent and i have advised all my friends to do the same upgrade since it is one of the best things i have changed on my bike... and this is from someone who didn't expect to feel any big changes from the upgrade

[@brianrivasoconer5543]

Thanks alot ,I have a hard tail and I want it to be the best it can..so im thinking about better hubs ,but for me its super expencive .I live in mexico and im poor ,you saved me alot of money by explaning this. Now i know for the bike and riding I do ,..I do not NEED better hubs than I have now 🚲👍

[@LoveMTB]

Happy trails! Glad to help. And we love Mexico 🇲🇽🤘

[@benstanway3238]

If you have a high pivot bike with a pulley like a Forbidden, Hope 916, Norco Sight or Range then chain kick back is not an issue. Although I would say there's a tipping point where too high engagement can cause drag downhill.

[@m1nusasusplus897]

I am still happy with 18T on my DT350, 4 seasons on full suspension bike and no issue, just bought boosters for new bike and reuse my wheelset.

[@Svenmpa]

I went from a cheap pawl hub to a 54 tooth POE. I really loved the way it made me a better technical climber.

[@newtonsantos_photo963]

Longevity and High POE (due climbing) are a must in my case. Two years ago, I started running a Sram 900 series (front & rear) with 52 POE, if I am not wrong. Quite satisfied with the performance & amazing sound !!! Otherwise, I could live with the regular one. Thanks for these video of technical explanation 👏🏻

[@Rhums]

Personnaly, I hate freewheel noise, that Hydra sounds like a nightmare. I already didn't like the DT Ratchets for that very reason. I have some more traditionnal Aivee freewheel on my FS Cross-country bike, Once properly greased, it's silent ! It's a pure joy when coasting and I have zero issues with engagement even on technical climbing.

[@zdravo4]

Agree, if I got it for free I wouldn’t like to use it

[@believe8263]

You should try Onyx hubs. Instant engagement and zero sound. It's so nice being able to hear your bike instead of your hub. I can actually hear my tires when they begin to slide and lose traction.

[@zdravo4]

@@believe8263 WOW, I hear for them for first time. That’s great, I am going to get more info of them. I really enjoy riding bike in the silence. Thank you.

[@Rhums]

@@believe8263 Thanks for the tip, i couldn't agree more !

[@zdravo4]

@@daispatrick exactly. I remeber when I got my first car, I wanted it to be loud, very loud. So I took it to the exhaust service to remove middle silencer completely. The sevice owner told me, “tomorrow you will be begging me to put it back” and so it was. The car was so annoying loud that I drove it slowly. And yes, in few days I went to exhaust service to put the silencer back

[@FERN05084]

I’ve ridden the torch and the hydras for about 10yrs now. I won’t go back. I recently rode a buddies bike on a 20 mile ride off-road with the DT Swiss and instantly missed the engagement. One thing I’ve learned in the bike industry, is that every manufacturer out there makes the best and they have the proof to show you. I ride what works for me.

[@jimm244]

POE is definitely important, to a point. I have DT 370 @ 20°, Stans @ 10°, i9 1/1 @ 4°, and two rides on new Hydras @ 0.5°. The 370’s are the old 3-prawl and they have been surprisingly sturdy after years of use, but 20° sucks. IMO, 10° engagement is the maximum acceptable. After 2 rides, I have nothing but praise for the Hydras, and I haven’t noticed any kickback. But, at the end of the day, IMO 10° or less is just fine.

[@LoveMTB]

With you on this, 10 deg is good enough, Hydras are giood for the Bzzzzzzzzz

[@NathanRaymondBarker]

As soon as a bike starts rolling pedal kick back isn't an issue with any modern suspension design. I've gone from Stan's Neo hubs (L), to I9 Torch (H), to Hope Pro 4 (L), and now back to I9 Hydras (H). Most of the climbing I do is relatively technical so swapping from high to low poe is extremely noticable in that regard, hence being back on hydras. DT Swiss's logic really only applies to a static bike and is just a way for them to market their ratchet design. There's no right or wrong answer, but for me after spending time with both, low poe just feels clunky and harsh pedaling up technical climbs or through undulating terrain comparatively to high poe.

[@slick-riq]

Wow thanks for dong this, was looking to understand this topic more!

[@thecannabiskidfortier6219]

I would say the high engagement hubs for climbing are a must for better traction. I'm wanting to get a set but they so darned expensive.

[@BH-cy9tb]

Not anymore. Bontrager line 30 wheels are around 500.00 for set as are Nukeproof horizon and Hunt wheels also 500 a set and all have high engagement 90 Poe and above

[@GaryGlacierMTB]

Nice video. Good explanation on the POE. Never knew some of the info you mentioned. I have a hydra! Love it.

[@eddyfusely503]

Very well explained and demonstrated

[@newenglandagingrider1738]

I split the difference and went to 72 POE with Hadley Hubs, or 5 degrees of engagement. I like quiet hubs and with the right hub oil these are very quiet. I believe that you do need some engagement movement to be able to ride naturally. A good set of hubs mated to quality rims can really change the feel of a bike.

[@newenglandagingrider1738]

@@LoveMTB I am not sure. When I had the wheels built I asked for them to be quiet and wheel builder made it happen.

[@BH-cy9tb]

Very interesting. I have industry 9 hydra hubs on my ebike and over stock there is a measurable difference BUT I just got done building up a 2019 stumpjumper alloy and bought a new rear wheel that had 54 Poe and honestly no real big difference between it and the hydra at 690 Poe.I even upgraded the new rear wheel to 108 Poe and between the 54 and108 no discernible difference. I think once you get to around 50 Poe there are diminishing returns. Almost everything we buy into is because of marketing hype.

[@sebastianjost]

Also note that the engagement angle at the crank depends on the gear you're in. So if you are in a very low gear like 32-50, you get less than 10° with 36 POE.

[@sebastianjost]

@@LoveMTB you still had the formula in the video at 2:45, so that's perfectly fine. 🙃

[@polishguywithhardtospellna8227]

Fully agree, yet i keep forgetting that gear ratio stuff and just found out for sure(?) that pedal kick back is not really possible at even mild speeds. But still can't see much point to upgrade from 54 to 108. Would not like additional noise for sure.

[@BH-cy9tb]

@@polishguywithhardtospellna8227 between 54 and 108 not much difference in sound.

[@meliodashadeyoshi2115]

Even if there very similar it's like going from a four cylinder Honda civic to a Lamborghini in the sound differents when upgrading to the hydra hubs.

[@c4l1f0rn143000]

when i got the new ratchet exp 240s i wanted quality, weight savings, serviceability and customer service for any future issues and well, a 240 is forever points of engagement t is a very very tricky thing since its also related to the gear ratio and length of the crank too so ya, too subjective to pay for durability and reliabilty is forever

[@kevinborovsky3558]

Another great video as always. Thou these are amazing hubs to say the least. I do think they are more than I need at my skill level. Just got my set of Bontrager Comp 30 and they will be perfect my my new build and rides. Thanks again 🍻

[@kevinborovsky3558]

@@LoveMTB no they are a off Trek Fuel last years model. However I think they will be perfect my Prone. Thanks for the advice on rims a while ago🍻

[@daniell4711]

In my early days of MTBing, I had moments where the low POE infuriated me when trying to get the bike going on a tricky and precarious part of a trail, so I say higher POE is better. 690 pt is cool, but I’m more than happy with the 108T upgrade on my Bontrager RapidDrives and would still argue that is the cheapest way to get a high engaging hub without forking out for i9s

[@esshoul]

Bontrager 6-pawl drivers are no-brainer. Best price and superb performance - no pedal lag whatsoever

[@dansacco1964]

I'll take a hardtail, a technical climb, and all the poe I can get! Good explainer vid. Wonder if suspension design and things like O-chain keep the high poe hubs around.

[@jonathanfrederiksen7184]

I'm 100% on with the the I9 after riding...first ride. I was able to, as an aging mountain biker, clear obstacles that were commonly 50/50 for me. 100%.

[@LoveMTB]

All that matters, happy trails!

[@serhiirudenko6183]

I'd like to have a silent hub on my gravel bike. Also those hubs have almost instant engagement, that should be really good for uphills. They're hard to find and pretty expensive but someday I'll get one.

[@LoveMTB]

They do exist but the price is🚀🚀🚀

[@mtbmadman011]

Great comparison and debate. Engagement out of corners is everything. Ratcheting through jank and tech arubqally is better w/ rapid engagement. Night and day difference between DT 350 Std VS Hydra engagement. Once you have been bitten by high POE, There is no going back. My DT hubs w/ 54's (POE) out coast my Hydras by 20 - 30%. For aggressive MTB, Id rather have the high engagement. For bike packing, townie cruising etc a 36 POE DT Swiss is hard to beat.

[@radidoc4832]

Good video. I think the degree of engagement is even more exaggerated with bigger cassette, like on the granny gear, but I am not good enough to notice since my technical climbing and trial skills are lacking. I do have a hydra hub in order so we will see if I can tell the difference from my current dt swiss 54 ratchet.

[@mtbbiker6401]

Just purchased 54T upgrade for my 18T 350 hub. Haven't installed it yet but can't wait to test it out compared to 18T. Hope it helps me to clear some of the techy climb areas where I currently get stuck.

[@sonnduro]

For me when i was picking the parts for my bike, the hubs were the cool parts i gave me self the luxury of choosing any one i wanted, So i narrowed it down to Chris King and I9 Hydras. Chris Kings was only $100aus more, but i went with Hydras because its really easy to do a basic service like removing the free hub to removing the paws and springs to clean out the old grease, I’ve cleaned it so many times now. You only need specialize tools to remove the bearing but thats easy too but my bearings are still good after 3 years. With Chris Kings its looks super complicated with their special tool. My next wheels will have i9 hydras aswell

[@rollinrat4850]

Ive got 7 Chris King hubs. Ive never replaced one single bearing in decades of hard and dirty use. I can't kill mine! I've tried riding in lots of deep water. I also own the hub tool because I love fine tools. Ive only used it because I was curious and it does make it a bit easier to clean the bearings out. I mostly just admire this beautiful tool or use it on my customer's wheels Ive built. If you regularly maintain King hubs you don't 'need' the hub tool. Regular meaning every other year(MAYBE) You only need the cone adjustment tool, a couple 5mm hex keys for older hubs like mine. For newer hubs ALL you need is a 2.5mm hex key. They're even easier to service! Most of my King hubs were bought used and abused and I was able to overhaul them all to perfect function. Ive never needed to replace a bearing in over 100000 miles (30 years) in my oldest hubs. You can service CK bearings while they're still in the hub by removing the circlip and seal. CK bearings are designed to be serviced, not used up and thrown away like most of the other 'blingy' hubs on the market. Since CK uses angular contact bearings, they can be adjusted for preload and wear infinitely. You dont want to throw CK bearings away. They are quite expensive, yet renowned to last many many years. I will give these hubs to my grandchildren! Really. Most high end hubs use radial contact bearings which can't be adjusted and the seals would be compromised upon removal should you try to service them. Most use $10-$20 bearings in hubs that cost hundreds. Therefore, you tolerate looseness or gritty bearings until you throw them away and replace them. They can never be kept in a perfect state of adjustment because of the bearings and the design they use. Its pretty simple to service a CK hub. There's no tiny pawls and springs to lose. Usually I just clean and relube the driver when it gets noisier. On my oldest, 30 year old hubs, I've overhauled the bearings maybe a dozen times. STILL the original bearings in there!! I call that an excellent value! Chris King is the only manufacturer that makes his own bearings just for his hubs. He even manufactures his own balls! This is medical grade manufacturing and ultra high quality. I've precision measured all my interference fits and they're perfect. I was also a medical device machinist and mechanical inspector. I worked for a world renowned heart surgeon. Ive built bearing assemblies that fly in aircraft as well as in space. I recognise true high quality. .

[@Bittersfamily0424]

My bike came with DT Swiss 3 Pawl 370 hubs. I actually wore that hub out. DT Swiss laced up a 350 hub under warranty. I put 54 POE ratchets in the new hub. I really liked the quicker engagement for all types of riding I do. After that I wanted the i9 hydra wheel set. Had them on order for over six month and never got them. So I canceled my order and purchased a new Rockshox Zeb Ultimate. I will say that I am still very pleased with my DT Swiss wheel set. I feel like the new fork was a better upgrade over all.

[@Bittersfamily0424]

@@LoveMTB It is a lot more plush and allows me to hold a line easier in rough sections over my Lyrik RCT3. Overall much more confidence inspiring.

[@alex_rogan]

Just come off very cheap Shimano hubs/freehub to Hydra and the engagement is soooo much better. Allows me to carry a better cadence up techy stuff and when pedaling the power putdown is noticeable.

[@alexisrodriguez6526]

Y'know, I never paid attention to POE until now, and I may have yo get a higher engagement hub due to my love for turning every road into a technical climb, where I live the streets are always broken, and the sidewalks look like a freaking motocross trail due to broken concrete and getting lifted by tree roots, so maybe in the future I'll invest on a hidra hub for my bike, but not at the moment

[@user-sm4bl4xx7u]

I like the idea of a high POE hub for my hardtail (no rear suspension, no problem with pedal kickback) but I just hate loud hubs! I like silence when riding on the trails, not listening to this terrible noise. I would love to get the box stealth rear hub, but it is really expensive :(

[@Oper8or]

DT 30 degree all day for me. Works just fine for how I ride. I would never need to use a Hydra with that tight of an engagement. Great vid man!

[@a.sonetwo4547]

1:12 my man!!!!!! Dude, thanks....for real bro. That is what i am preachin' to my bike buddy all the time for almost a year 😂 Love your content. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 war sucks

[@jpensirikul]

Hey great stuff! Love the detailed product reviews. Looks like you've got Berd spokes. There's very little 3rd party info out there. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them related to ride quality, cost and how much you think their impact can be enhanced (or nullified) by rim selection.

[@jpensirikul]

@@LoveMTB awesome I'll check it out

[@ANTheWhizkid]

I ride trail/enduro - Hands down, no upgrade changed my riding as significantly as the hub and bb -Dt makes awesome quality products and the 54 star ratchet is surely something I would pick as well, but when the box with the writing "Handmade in Asheville" arrives and you be holding the product in your hands, you know why you wanted the hydra instead and suddenly forgot the money that you´ve spent. However, I notice that with every track stand, every climb and tech trail, that it was worth it. The product just makes fun and has a nice sound too.

[@jamest2660]

High engaging hubs definitely help with tech climbs, especially in areas were crank/pedal strikes are common. I also think that the I9 1/1 hubs are high enough engagement for this. I don't think the Hydra's super high POE is necessary.

[@brassmnky33]

Important to remember that when climbing you’re in a lower gear so ten degrees might end up being more like 12-18deg at the pedals and when in a high gear downhill it’s much less.

[@brassmnky33]

@@LoveMTB I think you can calculate the POE at the pedals. For instance a 30t*50t would end up being 16.7deg and a 30*10t would end up being 3.3deg at the pedals.

[@brassmnky33]

Putting i9 on your single speed is kind of a waste of money for this reason unless you’re racing BMX or something.

[@Ropetable]

It would be cool to have a hybrid hub, having high poe in the up and down position, and low poe in the position where both cranks are level. This would eliminate crank kickback when descending (cranks level) and have high poe where it matters, the up and down position when you need max leverage. Also the sound would be sick XD

[@antonioruiz6723]

Great video! I think for myself or most non professional riders you don't need to spend 3 times the money for that .5 of engagement. But this is a consumerism industry so... Whatever keeps the big brands to improve their products, eventually it will benefit all of us.

[@SubversionGarage]

Going from 10-degree engagement to 3.3 made a difference in some climbing situations, but can't really say I noticed much difference elsewhere. I would say anything 5 and under would suit most riders just fine

[@LoveMTB]

With you on that!

[@believe8263]

Actually Onyx hubs are instant POE hubs and make zero noise. Everything else is a step down.

[@believe8263]

@@LoveMTB Yes they are pricey but quality isn't cheap. Buy once, cry once as they say.

[@shwndh]

High POE just sounds and feels high quality. I’m completely happy with Hope 44 POE.

[@thecount1001]

i find the 10° engagement fine, no big problems, but i hella love my Hydras. a beautiful feeling and sounding hub, especially with some Dumonde tech hub grease applied every couple months.

[@wills4343]

I upgraded my DT 3 pawl wheels to I9 Hydra last year and it's been worth every penny. I have previously owned King and Hadley hubs. I would never use anything less than 72 Poe. Especially when climbing it makes a difference.

[@junkname9983]

what's important is that it doesn't sound so loud I can't hear anything else but the ratcheting.

[@user-ki1rx6pm3x]

This hub has some conceptual issues: 1. you cannot remove the axle without removing the bearing=>bad. 2. The hub creaks. Maybe due to the axle, which is made of very soft aluminum. 3. The bearings are expensive but not very long lasting. 4. Almost no sealing. Instant engagement makes a lot of noise during downhill. I went back to DT Swiss 240, and the noise is much less. Maybe in combination with Ochain this hub works for DH.

[@LoveMTB]

Well some would argue that high engagement is even less necessary for DH!?

[@user-ki1rx6pm3x]

@@LoveMTBOf course; maybe.

[@ksskchannel6978]

Very useful info. Thanks mate

[@2wheels8est]

I'm looking allways for the sweet spot. I like loud hubs, quick engagement und an good reliability but also the price tag is important to me. I tried many hubs and my favorites are the dt swiss 350 and the Hope pro4 Evo! The Engagement is quick enough, with 36 top 54 engagement points, the price is good, they are reliable and also the availability of spare parts is great! Bontrager Hubs are also ok but Not in Terms of spare parts and longlivety. I think the Hub weight If not to heayy isn't that important because of the distance from the rotation center.

[@keelangerken5154]

I love hydra hubs bc at the bike park, every downhill bike whizzes from a Hydra and none of them are doing technical climbs. Nor are any of those riders skilled enough to feel pedal kickback. It's great.

[@mcsweeneys3383]

36PoE is just right in my opinion.

[@wiljaq2773]

Dude - it depends on what kind of riding do you do. I had a DT Swiss hub and upgraded to I9 Hydra with 315 Carbon hoops and it was a fantastic improvement for my bike. BUT, I ride in an area with a lot of technical climbs where I need instant engagement of power. If I were mostly going downhill or easy rolling trails my old DT Swiss hub would have been fine. BTW - I had I9 add more grease to my Hydra so now it doesn’t make that loud noise.

[@chimps4gimps]

Cool vid. I do a variety of riding on my HT. Hope pro4 hubs with 8.2deg POE. I do find the slack annoying sometimes, particularly on technical sections or if I’m stopped/holding before making a next move. I’d definitely like to try some hubs with more POE to compare.

[@or-ian6973]

I have the same hub and mostly ride freeride on a 170mm enduro bike. I really haven’t found an issues with it. Previously had 17 degrees on junk crank bros hubs which was terrible. However I have not tried better yet. Too I feel like 6 degrees would be perfect for my situation but like I said really don’t have complaints with the hope 4

[@chimps4gimps]

@@or-ian6973 I've since bought a full sus with Zipp 3Moto wheels. 2.7deg POE. It does make the slow tech that bit easier.

[@yoavmiller216]

Longevity! And I'm guessing it would be the same for most average riders like me. But say You had the least costly version of, say, DTswiss, i9 , hope and any other company you like, regardless of price comparison, and as long as you can actually do maintinance (looking angrily at you! Shimano!) Which one would last the longest?

[@yoavmiller216]

@@LoveMTB Great! Will be waiting for that one!

[@jimdurham13]

I have both of those hubs and the hydra is a much better hub If you like technical climbing. There’s no comparison really. Avoiding pedal strikes while still being able to put down power exactly when you need to requires as much engagement as possible. All the mumbo jumbo about backlash/kickback and such doesn’t really affect your riding in the real world.

[@mikekrasovec6390]

Most of my hub problems have been due to the freehub body seizing up, not properly locking up, bearing issues, not staying adjusted... I've got in my collection of wheels xt, xtr, 105, ultegra, dura-ace, king, Phil, dt 240 and if the hub does what it's supposed to do without giving me trouble, being easy to service and low drag I'm happy. I've ridden and wrenched too many hubs that didn't hold up, poor lateral stability, were a pain to work on,..

[@trickyrickymtb5622]

I run 54poe on my 350s and its the sweet spot for me

[@christianjimenez6004]

@@LoveMTB Yes, 54 POE is the way to go and the sound of the ratchet is better than my bell to prevent people in front of me coming downhill.

[@JogBird]

we need to report points of engagement and angle of engagement... for some pawl based rachets, you can add more points of engagement without changing the angle of engagement

[@fattie2550]

I am running DT 240 Hubs with the 54T Ratchet. rides great

[@user-ns8vr9hz3d]

Dt is simplest of all hubs, i change my hydra to 240, because it is lighter, and with hydra i am noticed pedal kick back. Even if you have hard shifting you will notice effect on your pedals

[@LoveMTB]

😊 thanks for saying that

[@Samazing01]

Great video! Have you considered the Onyx Vesper hubs? They are completely silent, and engage almost instantly with their sprag clutch mechanism.

[@Samazing01]

@@LoveMTB Thanks to your video, I'll just stick with my 54T DT 350s, happy riding!

[@michael_the_chef]

The 54t dt kit is great but not very durable, i am heavy and strong in my legs, was riding very agressively and in a rough, rooty section a few teeth of the ratchet got damaged because of pedal kickback. Also in cold weather it happens sometimes not to engage. Used a small amount of dt swiss supplies grease, so no user error.

[@LoveMTB]

And that’s why they don’t supply any of their wheels standard with 54t, even the new 240 comes with 36!

[@fitnesshiker]

POE Depends on the type of trail and bike you are riding. I would prefer i9 hydra hubs on my hardtail for use on all technical trails with root and rock climbs.

[@LoveMTB]

Hydra on a hardtail will work just fine, gets more complicated on a FS.

[@user-xq5rp9fm1p]

I have both an Onyx (instant engagement) and a DT 240 with the 54t ratchet. Personally like the engagement and low rolling resistance of the Onyx, but you pay for it with weight. The 240 is pretty damn good, and the sound is not as noticeable as the Hydra, so if DT could get it closer to 3* of engagement, I'd be sold for life...😉

[@mattelliott5242]

My experience with hubs are I have a dt350 18 tooth for winter riding, 54 tooth dt350 on a summer bike and onyx vespers. I can tell the differences but on the trail I’ve never thought about it, or has it affected my riding. I’d say the biggest difference for me is noise. Have you had the opportunity to ride an ebike? I probably read and watch to much bike media but am thinking of purchasing a ebike. Would love to hear your thoughts… Thanks again for you content I always learn something…

[@jackfrost-fu7hz]

I had new wheels built with DT350 hubs, it came with the 18 tooth ratchet, it was horrible, the old XT hubs had better engagement. I had to spend another 100 dollars for the 54 tooth ratchet, so my economical hubs became expensive with the extra 100. I have a 2x11 setup and find the 54 tooth ratchet lacking in engagement.