Hikaru's Mind is Blown by AlphaZero and Chess Variants

Google's DeepMind team ran AlphaZero on a bunch of chess variants- watch Hikaru as he tries to wrap his 5head around it. Original video here: • The AlphaZero Papers: ...
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#gmhikaru #chess #alphazero

[@ginoldjohn1096]

I am just here for Hikaru's confused looks.

[@Mr.Opinion]

33:42

[@andrew1717xx]

The gold is right at the end after you've seen the two really mind blown moments.

[@JiveDadson]

Excruciating. No preparation, obviously.

[@LethalDominik]

35:26 into 35:29

[@Michael-vf2mw]

I'm just here to laugh at his pronunciation of en passant

[@TheMarkoSeke]

"The pawn moved sideways, funniest shit I've ever seen"

[@TuequoiseQueso]

He's surprised that the chat doesn't burst into laughter 😬

[@adiadiadi333]

Typical reaction from a person who has been playing the same game suddenly having to think a little differently.

[@i_am_person8250]

I am truly not sure if people understand the pickle rick reference

[@Unknownuser-vq9ul]

Even I laughed, cause no one expected the pawn to bugger off sideways.

[@austinconner2479]

@@Unknownuser-vq9ul I mean, there was big white letters saying that...

[@vogelszijnlelijk]

90% of Hikarus life is chess, so a pawn moving sideways is as ridiculous to him as an apple falling toward the sky. Even though these are just the somewhat random rules of a board game. Very interesting psychology going on there.

[@vogelszijnlelijk]

@DHRUV YADAV talking to chat

[@grotescoguru]

Yes exactly! I think it may be a bit like the reaction an alien society might have when learning a completely mundane thing we do

[@creativebeetle]

@@grotescoguru Or it might be like playing a mario game where the jumps go down instead of up.

[@john.dough.]

timestamp: 27:33

[@algiovannelli1271]

Pawn: moves left Hikaru: Uncontrollable laughter

[@Glynn541]

Imagine playing the self capture variant and you mouse slip and capture your own queen.

[@Some.username.idk.0]

Move 1: king captures the queen, now that's stronger than the bongcloud

[@leisiyox]

That's a whole new level of BOTEZ GAMBIT PogU

[@blackprocks3040]

1. Kxd1

[@oledakaajel]

Happened to me already

[@iz3798]

Botez Gambit Bongcloud Variation

[@isaachartford1535]

Imagine being a super GM who's spent a hundred thousand hours studying chess just to watch AlphaZero shoving the pawn to g7 because it feels like it today.

[@Pacopaco-bx6fy]

AZ: XD

[@yes4me]

Let's experiment: ALL RULES ALLOWED IN POGCHAMPS 3!

[@uwufemboy5683]

I know I'm late to the party, but this is something I haven't seen anyone point out yet, so I'll do it myself: at 11:00 you can see that pieces are valued lower in semi-torpedo, torpedo, and pawn-sideways variants. This isn't because those pieces are worse, *_it's because the pawns are better._* The pieces are evaluated by how many pawns they are worth - so naturally, when pawns can do more, the pawns are worth more, and other pieces are worth fewer pawns because of this.

[@anikinmartinez4726]

Well duh

[@catlord69]

that just makes other pieces worse, because pawns are better on their own

[@fogelmclovin2694]

Yeah. The values are the most interesting part about this. Like how a rook’s value decrease by almost a whole pawn when you can’t castle. But when Hikaru said that the pieces got nerfed, when actually the pawns got buffed, it was clear that he didn’t care a single bit about this. And I don’t care enough about chess to watch someone who’s not interested in chess variants skim over an article about chess variants.

[@oraz.]

How bout random items drop that you have to pick up with pieces for temporary powers.

[@PurplySkye]

lmaoo

[@ploopybear]

This isn't smash bros xD

[@lol101lol101lol10199]

Or how bout you get points when you take a piece that you can spend to buy those power-up items if you go back to the 1st/8th (base) rank with you queen.

[@nolovedrjones9668]

@@lol101lol101lol10199 DOTA chess

[@mufarisfa3939]

Or how about a recall so your pieces can reset back to it's starting position

[@alanlee222]

The piece value is relative to pawn = 1. In pawn sideways the lower values of pieces, rooks, and Q is stating that pawns are much stronger in this variant.

[@EGarrett01]

Yeah it took me a moment to see that because I knew that pawns had to be monsters in torpedo but it said their value was 1.

[@EDoyl]

Seems like a mistake to normalize everything to the value of a pawn when what you're testing involves changing what a pawn is on a fundamental level.

[@Motivic167]

@@EDoyl You have to normalise it with respect to something, it doesn't matter which.

[@EDoyl]

@@Motivic167 It kinda matters when the variants that change the power of a particular piece all list that piece as having exactly the same power. It's confusing to have pawns in the 'strong pawns' variant evaluated exactly the same as in classical. Confusing enough that one of the best chess players in the world misinterpreted what the scores were saying. Of course, the information is the same whatever you do, but this is probably a bad choice for presentation. You've got to pick something to stay the same, as you say, but the one thing you're changing seems to be obviously the worst choice for that.

[@Motivic167]

@@EDoyl What piece do you propose normalising with respect to? I think normalising with respect to the lowest value piece is the most reasonable for being able to quickly read relative values.

[@derFeind]

Plottwist: Everyone has to play the bong cloud boring chess solved in an instant.

[@rabranch32]

Self-capture sure takes back rank mates out of the equation.

[@WRanger87]

I can’t understand how removing most of the early game mates would lessen the chance of a draw

[@hatakenewt348]

True, giving bank rank mates are one of the most satisfying parts of chess

[@nitramreniar]

@@WRanger87 I would guess it may be because the AI plays at a high level making it unlikely to leave opportunities for back rank mates open

[@Kaizsu_]

@@hatakenewt348 back ranks stop happening when you get good at chess. not saying you're bad cos i lose/win to back ranks myself occasionally, but pros almost never do.

[@supC_]

Also smother mates.

[@FilipWizard]

"Admin,he is doing it sideways"

[@andrew1717xx]

It is Ph00n on g7.

[@FilipWizard]

@@andrew1717xx HAHAHAHAHAHA

[@DragonFly-qm4vh]

New piece on chess, the bunny

[@ImAiiMeR]

"is this gonna be a dank paper or a real paper?" WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN LMAO

[@shashlik7959]

He is talking memes we can no longer fully understand him

[@SkateFallen1424]

he has no idea what dank means in the conventional sense lol. no idea how it hasnt become a meme yet

[@SkateFallen1424]

@@kys9611 I know lol, but I said "in the conventional sense", which I guess maybe could've benefitted from the qualifier "these days"

[@tingol10]

@@kys9611 Dank does not mean crazy lol, it means cool or awesome...

[@ploopybear]

@@tingol10 explain "dank" memes :3

[@kwaddamage8286]

Castling was not added to chess until the 15th century and did not develop into its present form until the 17th century. It is WE who are playing a chess variant

[@turbofan450]

Yes, the queen was buffed too.

[@itakelemons3865]

also, in original shatranja, the pawns moved only 1 square so yeah

[@dannyhelser2054]

I wonder if Hikaru realizes that a pawn moving sideways is only ridiculous to him because he's used to normal chess. If someone who was learning chess saw him laughing hysterically at a pawn moving sideways, they might assume he is clinically insane.

[@randomlife7935]

Another variant is "I Pass". Player is allowed to not make a move.

[@mr.fluffypantz4150]

I’m not sure how much of a “good” variant this would be because it only really changes strategy in zugswang situations. I think zugswangs are a really healthy thing to have exist. My gut feeling is that allowing a pass would simply lead to drier, more drawish endgames

[@lred1383]

It would probably result in 100% draw rates, as the AI will build perfect defensive positions and either do nothing, resulting in infinite games, or, if the opponent can somehow disrup the position, they'll just draw because they'll shuffle pieces around. It would a big change, but not an interesting one.

[@jackrudolf1745]

No castle meta: *bongcloud*

[@Scientist93]

I wish they covered the "banishment" variant, in which you can just remove a piece from the board instead of moving it. Imagine how many attacks would be based on pushing a pawn to the seventh rank, then removing it to open the file for your heavy pieces!

[@JuliusKingsley0]

Or make some “Nasty discoveries”...

[@richaragonzales1355]

That and being able to capture your own piece would make a very interesting chess game.

[@nischay4760]

why would you push it to 7th rank? In most cases you could just remove it immediately

[@Scientist93]

@@nischay4760 For various tactical reasons. Many King attacks down, say, the g- and h-files, can be stopped by using the King to block the enemy pawn on the seventh, which then becomes a hindrance to its owner. In that case, it may benefit the attacking side to just remove it from the board; otherwise, they wouldn't wanna be just a pawn down for nothing. I'll try to provide an exact example, but I'll probably have to browse through some Dragon games first.

[@Nothing-rc4zc]

Resigning would be banishing your king

[@dannyhelser2054]

25:21 The only time I have understood something that Hikaru didn't immediately understand in regards to chess

[@borissmondack7802]

I’ve said that for years: from conceptual point of view, it does not make sense that stalemate is a draw, all other considerations aside. Pleased to see this variation ranked nr 1 by Danny.

[@1988ryan1]

"Oh no your troops have surrounded me and trapped me and i cant do anything without dieing, guess nobody wins the war and we both get to survive." Just adding a step where you have to actually capture the king before the game ends, like a extra/final move after mating to win would completely fix all the dumbness, and a bunch of variations like fog of war and 4 player already do that.

[@Ardarail]

I think forcing your opponent into a position where they have no legal moves is basically the same as winning. That being said, it is easy to accidentally stalemate if you don't know how to checkmate so this change would definitely lead to wins for less skilled players in positions that they didn't checkmate properly.

[@wobwobninja4771]

I like to see stale-mating as failing to kill an opponent, which allows for him/ her to live, get stronger, and have the chance to kill you in the future edit: so imo, its the same as failure, and deserving of a draw

[@adriangodoy4610]

I'm beginning to play chess and it's so annoying. Instead of playing and improving my intuition I have to study all the ways they can force a draw kind of boring

[@doommaker4000]

@@wobwobninja4771 You don't fail. If you could capture kings like any other piece istead of doing the whole checkmate king thing, you'd win by stalemating the opponent

[@Nullzero98]

Anyone else wanted to see him actually read the 98-page paper on stream?

[@flavio5046]

Bob and Jerry playing chess in the bar, Jerry is loosing, but he's a scam: Bob: Aha! I got you now. Jerry - Hey man, I saw this crazy move in my trip to Europe, it's called "castle". You move two pieces at the same time. The king can move more than one square and jump a piece.... Bob - That sounds illegal Jerry - It's toats cool to play that, everyone in London is playing this. Bob - Whoa, I wanna be cool...let's spread the word LATER.... Jerry - Hey man...You though you would have a passed pawn right there, right? Bob - Hum yeah Jerry - Guess what? In Paris they have this move called "en passant", where the pawn can capture sideways when you do that. Bob - So trendy, gonna tell everyone! ...Jerry still loses

[@PARABELLUMepic]

I love it when he laughs

[@matteocaruso6755]

So you see, that's where the trouble began. That smile. That damned smile.

[@miltonjordan]

He is really smart!

[@user-xc9do2ly1y]

Matteo Caruso gay

[@traplover6357]

@@miltonjordan 102 IQ isn't that smart lol

[@miltonjordan]

@@traplover6357 I think he's got 140 to say the least.

[@AltairCreedZ]

Pawn: *moves sideways* Hikaru: *COMEDY GOLD*

[@24pavlo]

11:30 in pawn sideways pawn become much stronger so the relative value of other pieces decreases significantly.

[@robinvik1]

When I learned chess as a kid I remember thinking stalemate being a draw was pure bullshit. But it does give you a reason to keep playing when you are down to just a king.

[@ginoldjohn1096]

Me : Am I crazy ??? Hikaru: Hmmm Hmmm 😄😄😄

[@THeINtegral1407]

I think a combination of pawns moving sideways with no castling would be great to allow the rooks to come into play sooner. Maybe something like: Pawns sideway + No castling + stalemate = win

[@andrew1717xx]

A derivative might be without the statemate idea. Cos, an extreme version where pawns can move sideways two seems like it would be fun. :)

[@neurophilosophers994]

I agree my intuition says this is a good combination as well

[@K1NETIX1983]

“CCO” in most organizations is a title actually - Chief Compliance Officer

[@MrNatantantan]

Chief Chess Officer

[@duanelachney4358]

perhaps that title should actually be CCCO - Chief Chess Compliance Officer lol

[@tsukuyomi-no-mikoto1707]

35:30 *confused samurai andy face

[@pahom2]

What did he say? Why isn't it a fork?

[@anupraj18]

Hikaru is best at blitz and rapid. *declares classical games obsolete* nice.

[@aronhegedus]

In the self capture variant, your king is always in check

[@BruceBoppoTiemann]

Only if you want it to be. You don't have to capture your own pieces if you don't want to. Your opponent, however, does want to capture them, or at least threaten to and force you to do something about it.

[@justinc0336]

0:51 The Rook on H8 “Can you move over bud?”

[@FredPlanatia]

pawn sideways makes pawns relatively more important so all the piece values decrease.

[@benjiiano4077]

I like that everything that Hikaru doesn't instantly get is always "stupid" or "to dank" (I'm not sure he knows the true meaning of dank). Like 25:25, where he didn't instantly saw the en passant capture (which isn't weird, because that's part of the alternative rule-set) and instantly says the mode is ridiculous and stupid. Edit: I also like the fact that he thinks he sees better moves than the AlphaZero engine at several times.

[@lucas29476]

I hope you said "like" in a sarcastic way. Because he also dismissed 5D chess quite quickly without trying to learn it properly

[@alexandarjelenic7718]

I learned an new Hikaru-ism "en passant" is referred to as the peasant move. I will add this to my list that already includes "juicers", and "horses"

[@n8style]

I like the stalemate = win rule. It makes the rule set a lot cleaner, you have to move even if your king goes into check and capturing king = win. Basing the ability to make a move on whether it would allow the opponent to do something on the next move is just too complicated for a lot of beginners to grok. Every game designer would say stalemate = draw is a bad rule to have as it makes the game complicated while only being used very rarely.

[@tombosson466]

yeah because the one thing chess strives to be is uncomplicated...

[@n8style]

@@tombosson466 there's a difference between complication and complexity, complexity makes for a good game, complication makes for a bad game Chess has incredible amounts of complexity which makes it very good, but also some complications which take the fun out of it

[@voteforno.6155]

Hikaru's brain is still in recovery mode from taking in so many high-level important chess variants.

[@supitschillbro]

CCO is a thing for many corporate boards (Chief Compliance Officer), also can be CLO (Chief Legal Officer).

[@newmedtner]

Watching Hikaru do a chess variants puzzle rush would be awesome!

[@CallOn84]

Technically, some chief titles are made when it's needed

[@SkepticalCaveman]

(No castling) + (stalemate = win) should be enough change to reduce draws, while similar enough to classical so you don't have to relearn everything. For a more radical change: pawn move backwards + sideways and self capture would change a lot, but sounds very fun.

[@TrueLimeyhoney]

Combine torpedo with pawnside! Pawns that can move two spaces sideways!

[@Kevin-vm7ie]

Finally some patch notes in Chess 😂😂😂😂😂

[@curtisblanco4029]

I would love to see you play the new Stockfish and also LCO. We all know they would win but those would be really fun games to watch.

[@sreex9904]

"Training" is the machine learning term for playing itself

[@zanew2493]

Imagine Alpha 0 Fog Of War

[@siraf1234]

What if you combine stalemate = win with something like no castling or self capture

[@andrew1717xx]

They will

[@iKSmurf]

I believe stalemate=win is a no-brainer. It adds so much more mate potential at every level and also. What's wrong with changing rules? Sports do it all the time.

[@user232349]

Changing the rules wouldn't be so bad if there was an actual benefit. None of these variants have an advantage over classical chess.

[@gregjames6017]

There is nothing in the world to compare to this man's pure, intoxicating laugh

[@SellusionStar]

How about white is only allowed to castle, when black did it already. Like white starts the game, but black starts castling.

[@JordanMetroidManiac]

This is a little similar to the “pie rule,” I like it.

[@TymexComputing]

Training draw ratio is the initial phase of learning draw ratio.. including the "patzer" games even when AZ didnt know how to play against itself :)

[@williamcrosby1061]

Capturing your own pieces is one I'd like to see competitively.

[@zeNUKEify]

Bongcloud varient would lead to extreme attacking chess

[@wenhanzhou5826]

I think self capture and pawns moving backwards is pretty cool

[@rabranch32]

Mad respect to Vlad and also Danny for this work.

[@PretzelBS]

I’ve always wondered what a self capture game a chess would look like ever since I was a little kid and would sacrifice my own pieces to get out of checkmate 😂

[@helloitismetomato]

"Let's read this paper! ..... wait, how long is this?"

[@doommaker4000]

Can't wait for sideways backwards torpedo variant for that sweet 0.42 knight value and 0.69 bishop value

[@rickneibauer1]

They are comparing to the pawn. So basically the pawn is worth more, the lower the others numbers are.

[@Philson]

No castling chess is basically the Bongcloud Patch.

[@Etothetaui]

Pawn sideways looks like all the pieces are nerfed but that is just compared to the pawns which are obviously more powerful

[@EGarrett01]

Joker tongue by Rensch at 31:31.

[@murillojosemachado6496]

Pawns backwards with sideway pawn would be very coll

[@ZombieLincoln666]

Fischer Random is a good variation. People should play it more

[@1001011011010]

I think it would be interesting in a variation of chess where it has the same rule as shogi, where you can put a captured piece on the board instead of moving.

[@robertwilson3866]

Has anyone played Pacman chess? One player is PAcman and the other is the black chess pieces and Pacman wins by eating all of black pawns and Black wins by taking Pacman with any chess piece. It's so good!

[@monkerud2108]

That way a lot of drawish positions become sharper, and openings change a lot, but the theme wont change too much, because each bichop move only happens once, you can choose 2 bichops of any color, but only revese it once. There are tactical choices that are more far reaching with this kind of variation, other than just a change in the position and gameplay throughout the entire game. Also it makes it possible to skew the light square/dark square domination even more allowing even wierder positions governed by even sharper dynamics, but utiliting almost only regular chess moves, except for the pawn move itself and hownbichop pairs can function with a much richer set of tactical ideas and positional possibilities.

[@12jswilson]

Torpedo and pawn sideways just massively buffs pawns, so other pieces are devalued accordingly

[@user232349]

None of these variants are going to remove the heavy theory battle, because it's easy to generate new theory with help of a computer. So, professional players would only have to learn more theory.

[@GaussianEntity]

If they really wanted to remove theory, then going with imperfect information like fog of war Chess is the way to go. I think people just want a new spin on the game.

[@ultru3525]

@@GaussianEntity Or introduce a semi-random element like in chess960/Fischer Random. As there are "only" 960 different starting permutations, a computer could calculate the best opening for each one, but I doubt any human being would be able to memorise more than 2 moves for each one, or rather that trying to memorise more would be an incredibly inefficient way to improve at the game.

[@blarblablarblar]

"Aight chess is done. What do we do for chess 2?"

[@blarblablarblar]

"Not sure, but we should open source the game for the modders to get involved."

[@kaioxys]

Here’s what we do: we allow you to take your own pieces, and make stalemating a win. Doing both together would be amazing.

[@matsku9368]

I didnt watch the video from start, just skipped randomly in the middle at 25:20 and thought that Hikaru is tripping balls when he suggested that you could move pawn from e3 to e5 forking bishop and knight and then saying doesnt work because en passant

[@PriZ0nM1ke]

I think it's true that most new chess players anticipate winning if they can put their opponent into a position where they cant move. Logically, they can't move, but they must move. So they forfeit. Like if a sports team doesn't have enough players to participate, they typically have to forfeit.

[@georgelomia4724]

Sideway pawn did not nerf everything else. Pawns just became more valuable and since pawn is always 1 point as a baseline 2 pawns are more valuable as a knight.

[@Horndogthehorneddog]

He should’ve read the abstract at least

[@exedeath]

If they were trying rules very similar to original chess, they could have tried those rules, too: Double Step only if wouldnt be attacked after first step=You can only do double step at first move and only if the enemy wouldnt be able to attack you with a pawn if you made a single step. All pieces can do enpassant=When the enemy pawn do a double step you can capture with any piece the square the pawn would move to if he made a single step move and with it capture the pawn. Double step only if pawn not attacked=You cant make double step if you are attacked by a pawn or if you would be attacked by a pawn if you moved just one square. Castling can be made if you are in check: If you are in check you can make a castling move and castling move can move though check. No fifity move rule= Threefold repetition rule still exist but fifith move draw rule is removed.

[@taggartaa]

Stalemate = black win. Since white has initiative advantage, a stalemate is an improvement on blacks initial position and should count as a win.

[@literally.anything___97]

Alternative Title: HIKARU REACTS TO UPDATING CHESS

[@duanelachney4358]

variant proposal: Queen swaps position with any pawn in its' clear line of fire [QP Swap]

[@wejzu8516]

no-castling = a bongcloud meta 😯

[@EDoyl]

1. Bxg2, fianchetto the bishop turn 1, insta-gambit a pawn to do so. Self-captures are pogged.

[@finnfreudenberg5568]

Stalemate equals win has actually one major upside. It is more balanced than classical (at least considering alpha zeros results). With 1k to 890 Vs 770 to 410 in blitz and 25 to 4 Vs 18 to 3. Which makes classical about the same but blitz a lot more even.

[@penguinflames707]

Imagine the value of pawns combining torpedo, pawn-sideways, and pawn-back.

[@BruceBoppoTiemann]

The "drunken pawn" variant.

[@jasonmighty3328]

"Im not reading it on stream, and im probably not reading it off stream either". Hikaru going full honest was too funny!

[@hutchmusician]

Watching Hikaru belly laugh at weird pawn moves is amazing. XD

[@bipolarminddroppings]

I think stalemate = win is the one with the most potential for professional play. No castling is also interesting. The rest seem to be making changes to a great game just for the sake of it.

[@haldanesghost]

Lol once I saw he was at the arxiv I was like “this is gonna be like a dissertation” and BAM 98 pages

[@Anthony-mr9sh]

Danny: *has an opinion* Hikaru's face: cferuiofhwljegrilwtrhu

[@funnyguru910]

Implementing stale mate as a win in future variants... Kasparov: 0.0

[@EDoyl]

Finally I don't get back-ranked any more. King takes PawnChamp

[@seancoburn8468]

9:07 the percentage is the point average for white; 55% means average point is .55, so drawing(0.5) mostly but having more wins(1)

[@galaxybrainclips]

Hikaru's reactions 😂

[@alecbader7433]

I feel like messing with these variants instead of just supporting 960 is like reinventing the tv instead of just changing the channel.

[@GorjeCeleb]

I agree, the most creative is chess: canibalism, but the most logical is no-tie chess

[@kmuralikrishna1998]

We need a "self capture only" to reflect modern warfare.

[@snickle1980]

Fog of war has always looked interesting, but I've never actually tried playing it. It's likely AWFUL to play at my level.

[@ShadowViewsOnly]

Well dunno what level you are, but the lower the level, the funnier it is :D

[@FloatingOer]

Here are two ideas for variations: Mad King Variant: The King can castle with any piece at any point in the game any number of times, even after moving first in any "Rook move" direction, so long as there are two or three free squares between the King and the piece. Pawn Promotion Variant: White Pawns promote on the 6th rank rather than the 8th and black on the 3rd rather than the 1st, also, for balance purposes and to avoid filling the board with queens pawns promote based on the file they are on when promoting, for white: a Pawn on a6 would promote to a Rook, on b6 to a Knight, c6 to a Bishop, d6 to a queen, and e6 to a second king (while two kings are on the board checks no longer apply as one king have to be captured before a checkmate can be made, after one of the kings have been captured normal check rules apply)

[@mrlucasftw42]

When you need to tell a good joke that is sure to land - pawn to G7

[@russellfroggatt]

When you capture a pawn you cast a spell called "End peasant!"