Hinata, Dawn Crowned | Upping the Average

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[@Yesnomu]

Joey, you are a delight. It's super cool of you to put up two decklists, and as always the swaps are so thoughtful. Thanks for this series!

[@dustinchang5089]

Joey, us budget players appreciate your additions to the already awesome videos you put up. Thanks!

[@Yakiro255]

I built this one last month and you did an amazing job of covering all facets. Very talented deckbuilder.

[@mfitkin]

Every upping the average feels like you chose the most wanted commander to cover, you’re a real crowd pleaser

[@gaymer4rmmeletis]

You are an absolute legend for the budget option/decklist.

[@alessandrosina48]

I remove Hinata every time it enters the battlefield against me :)

[@Gotas8]

Hey Joey! When building the deck I tried giving it a little extra boost of card advantage engines, so I added three cards you didn't mention: both Mavinda and Elsha of the Infinite give me access to cards not in my hand (work super well with Feather), and Elsha even allows me to cast those big X sorceries at instant speed. The true MVP of the deck, however, is Verity Circle. The number of cards we draw with our board wide tap effects is incredible, and it's pretty consistent to pull off.

[@BellTollsForThee]

Joey what a man you are! Great addition of the view from above solid deck I love your insights

[@michaelmadsen1830]

Always love the videos, but I extra appreciate the budget list since I was already working on one for Hinata.

[@gabrielamaro1470]

I like when you do provide the budget version of the list!

[@BDbiogamer]

Quick note about Dualcaster Mage and Archaeomancer: both of them are pieces of combos that did not end up in the average list. Fully agree with cutting them if you aren’t playing those combos, but I have a feeling the power level of Hinata herself might require you to have ways to end the game with a combo if only for the power level of other decks she would be a fair fight against

[@MicahAlfordable]

Totally agree. She can be pretty oppressive, and a quick finish is probably needed.

[@Slo-Mode]

I really like that you included 2 deck lists.

[@musashibriem1352]

I love how different my list is from the average deck. Super cool to see a commander that can go in different directions like this. Part of that is $100 self imposed budget, part of it is making it a voltron enchantress deck. I like hitting hard lol

[@magicaggy]

just got home from a kamigawa draft with a brand new hinata, thanks for the budget decklist and guide to this awesome horse :)

[@BFG93]

Great advice for vadrik deck too. Honestly words of thought to definitely get me brewing on.

[@tylerrose5782]

My suggestion is Pull from the Deep as well. Bonus suggestion, play it while you can until your table says they don't want to play against it anymore lol.

[@piralos1329]

One of my favourite cards for Hinata is Spell Swindle! With those huge X spells you're casting, you very easily hit 10-20+ mana spells, and casting a spell swindle on one of those for 4 mana, and making an obscene amount of treasures can absolutely just win you the game. It's like dockside at home!! Also, have you ever cast a crackle with power for x=10? That just kills people. And that's doable with just 22 treasures, which isn't difficult off a reality spasm targetting everything, and then countering it with a spell swindle! Card is absolutely absurd here, and I'm honestly surprised more decks aren't running it!

[@richardthomas7925]

Thank you for the two list.

[@joefjunior]

Love the politeness for the goblin cut.

[@AYooo_Its_D]

thanks for the budget list moving forward homie!

[@steelghost6492]

Nice updates! Personally, i think an addition of Veyran will do more for the deck vs the cyclops. I also agree with some other comments about you always picking commanders people are really interested in. Keep up the good work!

[@PSroka]

thank you for the budget deck! I will likely be building this as I have been waiting for a deck to play crackle with power

[@sertaki]

Hinata is also a lot of fun in Historic Brawl. It doesn't quite have all the toys you described ... but a surprisingly large portion of them! And what it lacks you can substitute with some other spells that have multiple targets.

[@yi-yangcho2593]

Just want to build a Hinata Deck, and this episode is really amazing! Also hope we can get an episode for Koma, Cosmos Serpent - he's my favorite commander!

[@breakingblackmagic7617]

Im playing this commander in a tourney...its kami block commanders pods....so i choose hinita..never played it before and this video helped alot on cutting a couple of cards and did help me w/ learning how to pilot it better..so thank you for the video😀

[@Parodox306]

This is going to be my "I just need a win" deck

[@JustABrokenToy]

Hinata looked super fun when it was spoiled, and I brewed a list that was close to the average list (turns out we all saw the synergies with otherwise unplayed cards, which itself was exciting to see in a commander). glad to see Erratic Cyclops added in as a replacement, that would've been one of my suggestions (also Elementalist's Palette). Mass Mutiny is just RR to steal a creature from each opponent, and Dismantling Wave can destroy an artifact or enchantment from each opponent for just W. Shreds of Sanity and Reconstruct History are mana-efficient recursion spells in a similar vein to Archaeomancer. my final recommendations to look into are Lost in the Mist (becomes Cancel that also bounces a permanent) and Karn's Temporal Sundering (4 mana take an extra turn and bounce a nonland), which don't cheat a huge amount of mana but become fairly efficient spells.

[@chris10241ch]

Dualcaster does combo with a few cards in the deck. Notably, Dualcaster and Sublime Epiphany results in decking all opponents or making infinite copies of Dualcaster or drawing your whole deck.

[@SiNeD24]

Yoo thanks for the video, i want to make this deck as soon as i can

[@NKMitch42]

I would love to see a Sidisi Brood Tyrant episode especially with all the cool stuff we've gotten recently.

[@alanjones6408]

Having multiple lists to reflect different budgets is awesome! I would like to see Kardur or Karazikar since you have experience with both of them. Or are you saving those for a future Commander Showdown?

[@vice723]

Please have a budget decklist everytime! Thanks!

[@lysolboss]

Joey you are a king

[@raresux]

i know it probably won't come up for a while because it's pretty niche and not really a commander you see much coverage on if any, but i feel like moritte of the frost would be a really interesting deck to cover! the main ideas i've seen for it is lords tribal, kinda like a pseudo-voltron because she has changeling and clones anything on your field, so all the lord effects apply to her. i think it definitely has some potential to be quite powerful (not cedh level obviously) despite being a kinda meme-y deck

[@Worldwave]

I actually think Monastery Mentor should be a staple here just as much as Shark Typhoon. Unfortunately the lack of synergistic tools due to Hinata's novelty (even though existing tools are strong), means that the deck's staple cards are very expensive. Thank you for this series. I run Hinata myself and I found protection spells to be very helpful as her second ability is bad for the general strategy because it draws attention to Hinata CONSTANTLY.

[@blaineallen5297]

Yeeeeaaahhh this what ive been waiting for.. lets see what my hinata deck is missibg

[@Dubi264]

I can't believe no one has mentioned 'Surge to Victory'! It's the perfect middle ground between the tokens and the spellslinging, useful as both a quick recursion piece and a combat win condition. Also, if you want a combo in the deck that doesnt feel clunky like dualcaster mage, the aura 'Dual Casting' is cheaper and reusable while still turning reality spasm into infinite mana.

[@MicahAlfordable]

I had surge in my original decklist, but it didn't make the cut. It can only get a cost reduction of 1 from Hinata, so it's 5 MV. Not that that is bad, but it was #103 or so for me.

[@tristonturner3524]

I am so confused about Call the Coppercoats! With the strive ability idk how It would interact with Hinata. Plz help

[@basilisk2742]

Any chance the Abzan color identity can get featured? I’m trying to make Tayam or the Yannik/Nikara partnerpair work bur i have no clue where to start

[@krugervictor3516]

Boots instead of Greaves maybe? With the Grieves, Hinata cannot be targeted by spells, so losing some protection option we otherwise have in this deck. Big thanks for the lists btw :-)

[@Wabiman70]

if you have feather in the 99, maybe you could try Mavinda, Students' Advocate, there's a lot of x spells that target your own creatures and with feather you basically put that spell in your hand

[@benjamincollina3010]

Could you guys possibly do a zaxara upping the average video.

[@Dr.Barber]

For the devious amongst us might I suggest Grand Arbiter? Reducing our spells even further and taxing our opponents even harder. Good to remember Hinata doesn't just make our spells cheaper to cast per target. She also makes our opponent's spells more expensive. With her and GAAIV on board you can counter their 3 mana Swords to Plowshares with your 1 Mana... really any counterspell.

[@okgut2033]

You monster! I love it :)

[@jeremyhoward4347]

I just brewed a deck and I put him in along with thalia for additional stax

[@tisseurdereves6414]

In a budget list, could I interest you in Mavinda, Student's Advocate ? Spell recursion bonanza !

[@FlyGravitas]

I appreciate the appraisal of this commander. It's really encouraging to hear cards that I added on my own in the recs, as much as it's good to hear cards I included that should probably be taken out, as well as cuts I made that I should put back. Goodbye dualcaster and brainstorm. HELLO chromatic lantern, spark double, deflecting swat and preordain.

[@BalefulStr1x]

I have a personal Hinata list in the works but it is completely divorced from the average, as it is a Divergent Transformation list as it becomes 1R in a 4 player game, win conditions here are Hullbreaker Horror and it is a toss up between new Jin and Tidespout Tyrant

[@user-nj3jg6if5i]

That's a more interesting idea than what I did. When casting Divergent Transformations, how are you going to consistently get two creatures for it to target? And which two? (Personally I'd go for Leveler/Thoracle, but I'd also probably use Kykar instead of Hinata since Kykar gives you the second creature to target without needing to spend card slots on it)

[@user-nj3jg6if5i]

Actually, I figured out a way to do it: Vehicles. A vehicle is a noncreature in your library, but can become a creature for the purposes of Divergent Transformations, and Hinata is big enough to crew most of them

[@ClosedOpenness]

Can someone explain how reduction to an X cost works with this? I didn’t think that was possible…

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

Let's say a card has you pay X mana to target X creatures. Hinata says spells cost 1 less to cast for each target. So I cast the spell, declaring that X = 10 for 10 targets and 10 mana, then check for cost reductions/replacements (in this case Hinata reduces that 10 mana to 0). This only works for X spells that hit X targets, and not all X spells. For another example of a popular commander that reduces costs of X spells, you can look at Gargos, the hydra tribal mono-Green commander. Gargos reduces the cost to cast hydras by 4, and a lot of hydras have X cost that turn into X +1/+1 counters. You can therefore get a +4/+4 hydra with Gargos on-field by declaring X=4 but reducing the mana cost from 4 to 0.

[@jeremy.oliver]

if you really want another X-spell, Wave of Indifference works to make that erratic cyclops not be blocked too

[@P3rvenc]

Worth mention that at 4 mana theres Pull from the Deep which return 2 cards intead of 1, and if you reaaaaally want archeomancer, just use snapcaster mage which is 2 mana or Ardent Elementalist, which costs less devotion, so its easier to cast

[@jeffjackson8755]

I think snap is out of a lot of budgets, hence why archeomancer is used instead.

[@dantetaranto4434]

I think Veyran and harmonic prodigy would be great in this token shell

[@Turkin4tor]

I liked the video just for the apostles blessing tech lol

[@murrowmench1565]

If you keep dual caster mage and run baral’s expertise, READ THIS COMBO! Cast Baral’s Expertise for 2 mana targeting 3 artifact/creature permanents your opponents control, then cast dual caster mage targeting Expertise. With the copy, target two additional permanents of your opponents *and your dual caster mage*, returning it to your hand. Then, with the Expertise copy’s “free spell for 4 mana or less”, cast the dual caster mage you bounced for free and re-target the original Expertise. Keep reactivating this loop until all opponent’s creatures and artifacts are bounced (except your original 3 targets so the original won’t fizzle when it resolves), and cast TWO free spells costing 4 or less mana (one from the last copy since you don’t want to recast dual caster mage anymore - keep it in hand for more duplication later in the game - and one from the original Expertise). This combo works anytime you’re playing dual caster mage and baral’s expertise, but it’s so much better in Hinata since it’s 5 mana instead of 8 to get it started.

[@willzang3000]

Woooooooooooo

[@trichogaster1183]

omfg i might actually build her

[@MrNemitri]

I wanted to build this deck, but it feels like it would draw so much hate! I was pondering a tax version instead of an X matters version, which compounds on the hate.

[@RedCometNurse]

While you have Jeskai on your mind, you should do Upping the Average for Elsha of the Infinite. Please, Joey!

[@connermcclarren5234]

I find that Hinata needs to win the turn she goes off, so I don't play any of the token makers, and instead go full storm, with the only alt win on being heat shimmer + duelcaster for hasty tokens!

[@nathanpavolko5861]

So I've been trying to challenge myself with deck building so I decided to make a Hinata spell slinging deck but the only creature in the deck is Hinata. Including no token generators.

[@iPhonix07]

I was looking for a control commander for so long and I have found the type of degeneracy I wanted. It’s very “toxic” in the sense that it is super control, you’re opponents may not get to play with well timed distorting wakes or heliod’s intervention. As win cons I tried to put in more “meme” cards like Cowardice or Dismiss into Dreams but Deekah and Typhoon are surely better

[@thomasbuege8074]

Need a Lyra Dawnbringer and a Reaper King deck por favor!!!

[@matteobagni1235]

Good video! It makes me want to build, but it will be too mean as a gameplay. Cheers

[@hectormorales4090]

That was pretty cool, but this one is so broken, we’re are not building (yet) within our play group.

[@dulon90]

I built Hinata and my group won't let me play it any more, they're fine with Niv-Mizzet combo or Jhoira artifact storm, but tap X creatures to fog their attacks or blow up X artifacts against their thopter spam decks is a bridge too far apparently

[@bjfire01]

I added timely ward to mine

[@dakillaklown715]

My step son found Sudden Substitution is really really really good with Hinata.

[@Lanx31406]

Part of what has me hesitant to build Hinata is that I got the feeling she was a "solved" commander. It felt like there was a clear cut best way to build her. I was not surprised when you said her average checklist seemed tight and streamlined. Do you think that is a fair way of looking at that? I wonder if theres a way to track that metric. I know you've had episodes where you talk about commanders with the most unique cards in their color pairings, but I wonder about which commanders in the Top whatever could be considered the most "open-ended" and which have the most consistent 99 across decks in the database. Part of why I love my Kykar, Alela and Dragonlord Ojutai decks is because I could be in a 4 way mirror match pod, and each deck could play completely different.

[@okgut2033]

I feel the same way: take a spellslinger deck and change some instants and sorceries for things that the actual commander cares. And its solved. Maybe not to 100% but at least to 97% and you dont actually need the rest for a good play experience.

[@borneof3954]

Hinata, Dawn Crowned sounds like an archenemy commander if I've ever heard one

[@Dr.Barber]

Kinda. The theme of Hinata is that if she's on board you're having a bad time. If she's off the board then the Hinata Player has a bunch of uncastable crap in their hand.

[@DarkMagicGamer]

It is. It can control the board if you can’t keep Hinata off the board.

[@iPhonix07]

It very much is. But she’s also kind of a glass cannon: if you can get her to stick you just do degenerate things, but if you can’t and your opponents make her cost like 10 to cast all your other cards are pretty much useless

[@budd1331]

Hinata is insanely good. Mine just wins if the game goes to long and can win earlier if I get any of the many many combos

[@lucianodiaz2931]

3rd! can you make Orah, Skyclave Hierophant

[@Hashbrown1682]

I felt Thai *sigh*

[@GoyfAscetic]

Please up Mayael the Anima's average.

[@nick14braun14]

Archeomancer and baral’s expertise is a combo.

[@holgerdanielsen3781]

Switcheroo

[@Zeromus5555]

I found the deck really struggles with draw...

[@DarkMagicGamer]

Played against a Hinata deck and I hated it. You have to play counterspells to stand a chance.

[@moboombada9774]

Joey, Its time to revisit and make more relevant changes this time.

[@robsta6543]

I keep my cyclonic rift for a single one mana bounce for my dockside or saving other stuff

[@ColtsChannel]

Cyclonic rift only allows you to bounce opponent's permanents.

[@robsta6543]

@@ColtsChannel ah dang guess I could cut it haha

[@robsta6543]

@@ColtsChannel meh this is my 2nd blue deck ever lol

[@camfunme]

Everything is contingent on your commander being on the battlefield and you added only 1 protection spell? Why?

[@Grimlong]

If you are going as far to make a budget list why not make a expensive list too. Some of us don't play with budgets.

[@robsta6543]

Well you're running it super casual Joey lol the enchantments in and dualcaster out ? Lol confused 😕

[@williamteske5978]

i only ever run 28-30 lands unless its lands matter

[@calvinbarboza]

If you go the Tokens route make sure to include Brudiclad. Haste helps close out games and the tokens from Call the Coppercoats are a lot more useful as 20/20 fractals.

[@crovax1375]

Scorched Earth benefits from Hinata's cost reduction too...

[@dpsnodgrass1215]

Damn that's a good one

[@crawdaddy2004]

This might not be in the average deck due to cost… but MONASTERY MENTOR???

[@styfen]

Not convinced that cutting one of the better red win cons out there in Dualcaster Mage is the right move.

[@DeoHoPnuema]

Zaffai is worthless in this deck

[@evilkniefel]

metallurgic summoning is bad in commander centric spellslinging strats. like how is it supposed to work? if you want to slam hinata on the table it'd better be with extra mana to counter removal attempts (if you dont want to include all the free counterspells). that makes an explosive deck kinda slow. I am talking with experience here, because taigam, which I play, has the same problem. so after you did that on turn 4 or so (having played 1 rock, which should be realistic considering the amount of rocks in the deck) you want to play a metallurgic summoning which does nothing initially and afterwards you still need excess mana to protect hinata another round. that's just not realistic. that makes metallurgic summoning a lategame wincon which still needs alot of setup. that is hella greedy. in these kinda decks you need to protect ure commander and sling spells right away. every setup play you do makes you vulnerable to be blown out. so my suggestion would be to try to limit the setup plays you have to make to 4cmc or less. that way you can setup before playing hinata and focus on protecting her and generating value afterwards.

[@iPhonix07]

I kinda felt what you say when playing Hinata as I put some “meme” wincons like Cowardice and Dismiss into Dreams which costs like 7 mana. And yes, that feels like way too much for a setup play but honestly, I think 5 for Summonings is not as bad. I mean, Hinata is a removal lightning rod anyways, so you are better off casting her when you also have the mana for protection or doing one of the degenerate things like 2 mana blow up all artifacts and enchants, and in that case, with a bit of ramp I feel you can find the timing for a Summonings type of card