Hircine: Secret Identity and True Origin Story Revealed

At long last, I’ve discovered Hircine’s true origin story and it’s truly shocking! Fans often theorize that Hircine may not be an original Daedric Prince, but there’s more to it than that. Here’s why I think that Hircine is Lorkhan!
0:00 Hircine is Lorkhan
3:00 Convention Problem
4:30 Lorkhans
8:22 Hircine’s origin story
10:21 Kyne finds out truth
13:54 Convention Problem Answer
17:29 Hircine not original Daedric Prince
21:55 Skyforge
25:16 Gulibeg
26:36 Hircine’s Grand Plan
29:50 Dragonborn DLC originally a Bloodmoon Throwback
32:08 Moons
37:28 Masser and Secunda
43:02 Trickster
46:51 Chase
48:04 Reachmen Briarhearts
51:03 Shezarr’s Torso
52:47 Ill Met by Moonlight
57:20 Bloodmoon Competition once every Era
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#ESO #Skyrim #TESOnline

[@Julian-vl7vn]

Maybe the real Lorkhan was the friends we made along the way

[@charleshill3503]

Wow...just wow. I've never seen a series of lore videos go into so many pieces. You have looked at every single bit of evidence I think possible. I'm convinced, and also proud of you. I now place you on level or higher with lore content than fudgemuppet and drew

[@TheBlackRose3]

OMG thank you so much!

[@Scoritn]

​@@TheBlackRose3you ever think the War of Manifest Metaphors is still happening in the background like in Assassin's Creed with the Templars and Assassins?

[@Arnaere]

I would put his delivery above Drew but lower than Fudge. They all make exceptional points, with substance.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

Your analysis is quite interesting, especially about Hircine as a trickster. Hircine is a Daedra that is often oversimplified and underappreciated by the community, while the own writers seem to see him differently, receiving a lot of care and lore compared to other Daedra.

[@hughcurran6817]

I walked into this video so sceptical. By the end, I was 100 percent convinced. Not only that, I want it to be the main quest for elder scrolls 6. Hircine is trying to unite all the parts. Then, at some point of the game, you find out you are a shezarine. That way, you could unlock extra powers, dragon born style.

[@Charles-In-Charge]

Shor and Lorkhan are definitely riffs from the gods Thor and Loki... the Warrior and the Trickster. Combining these two into one being certainly is unstable! Incredible theory, I do believe you.

[@pandorasbox4238]

Lorkan being a 'trickster' is the Elven perception of him, not his true identity. Shor is Lorkan. That is the lore.

[@fedoseev_first]

Shot and Lorkhan being riffs on Thor and Loki seems overly simplified. In mythology Thor and Loki do not occupy the same roles 1:1 like they do in MCU for example. And when TES was thought MCU didn’t exist. While the comics did I wouldn’t think they would have such a big influence on TES, especially as there aren’t other references to the comics.

[@Galimeer5]

It would be more accurate to describe Mara as the goddess of family. The love aspect of her is the very specific kind of familial love (romantic/sexual love is more in line with Dibella). In that context, Mara's Atmoran totem being the wolf makes more sense. Wolves are social animals defined by their family unit -- the pack. Mother wolves are often considered the paragon of family love and nurturing care.

[@scott3322]

A little late to the party, but I think this can also link to the Karita being Kyne theory - she warns you to keep an eye out for wolves; this could be a reference to Mara and/or Werewolves. Also, In some stories Dibella is the bed-wife of Shor, which could have something to do with the quest to rescue the girl from the Foresworn where we find a desecrated Dibellian shrine, despite the Foresworn being predominantly Hircine worshippers. Were they trying to corrupt Dibella to bring her onside to Hircine? To make Kyne love him again? It’s worth considering I think.

[@TheBlackRose3]

Wow! It did occur to me that the line about wolves might be a link to Hircine or Mara bc she mentions wolves yet there are none, and she provides no warning about the Frost Trolls. But I never made that connection to Dibella and the Forsworn. You may be exactly right, maybe they were hoping to infect Fjotra with Lycanthropy to corrupt Dibella somehow. Thank you so much for bringing this up!

[@Uriseph]

Lol I always just hand waved this line of concern off because wolves are such pushovers in Skyrim. I was like “woman, there’s a frost troll down the way, why are you concerned about wolves?”

[@HickoryDickory86]

I once had been of the opinion of the Forsworn worshipped Dibella alingside Hircine, but simply had a brutal, quite on-brand way of doing so. But that was before delving deeper into the lore that ESO provided, as well as what was revealed to us in Oblivion. Michael Kirkbride, who wrote Mankar Camoran's narration while we're in Paradise during Oblivion-the one about Lorkhan actually being a Daedric Prince and the true god of Tamriel, which is his actually his realm in Oblivion that had been usurped by Auriel and the other Aedra-admitted he's of the opinion that Mankar Camoran is mostly right (the errors can be excused as it was Kirkbride's first and only draft and he didn't have a chance to edit and revise before the lines were recorded by Terrance Stamp). Interestingly, during that diatribe, Mankar also reveals that Dibella, Stendarr, and Julianos were Lorkhan's betrayers. And seeing as how the Forsworn venerate Lorkh so highly and interpret Hircine as mantling him as the god of the mortal plane in Lorkh's absence, it makes sense now why they would despise Dibella and go out of their way to desecrate her shrines.

[@HickoryDickory86]

I'm sold. Excellent sleuthing and piecing together of all the available chunks of evidence. And as I pointed out in the comments on your Skyforge video, Morihaus is the winged man-bull son of Kyne, and yet Hircine is the father of man-beasts. So, this theory goes a long way to making more sense of that, resolving the apparent conflicts. Rather than Kyne and Hircine becoming lovers after each one's beloved had been slain (Nirn for Hircine, Shor for Kyne), it can now be understood that they were simple a resurrected Shor (in a sense) and Kyne. Either way, it seems clear that Morihaus is the son of Kyne and Hircine, and this theory makes the most sense of that. Additionally, I would add that Hircine wanting to lure Shor from Sovngarde and reforge a Shezarr/Lorkhan doesn't necessarily have to be nefarious. It can easily be interpreted a shattered piece of a former whole simply desiring to be made whole again, to return to his original state. And I previously had similar mental noodlings about Lorkhan/Shor desiring this very thing, and that he was slowly putting all the necessary pieces into place (the Shezarrines and other things). I just had never tied the Skyforge and Kyne into the equation, but that makes sense. And my thinking was that he wanted to make sure he was more powerful than Auriel this go-around and planned to take vengeance on his betrayers (Dibella, Stendarr, and Julianos included, according to Mankar Camoran; it is interesting that Tsun is with Shor in Sovngarde, but there's no sign of his brother Stuhn). Parts being assembled: 1. Tiber Septim/Talos was a Shezarrine and now is arguably the most powerful of the Divines. (They're mostly dead and/or dormant Aedra, greatly weakened versions of their former et-Ada selves, while he is altogether different. He is a Shezarrine mortal who ascended to a separate, independent divinity through CHIM [which is built-in feature of Mundus that Lorkhan/Shor himself devised]; that he is a Shezarrine also explains the Thalmor's great aversion to him, themsrlves being descendants of Auriel.) 2. The Hero of Kvatch, also believed to be a Shezarrine, is now a new Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince of Madness, inheriting the former realm and thus also much of the power of Jyggalag, who had been one of the most powerful and feared Princes, hence his being cursed to madness. And mind you, Sheogorath is tied in some ways to Lorkhan as well, having previously been described as the hole where Lorkhan's heart used to be. Pelinal Whitestrake was also said to have a gaping hole in his chest where a heart should have been, and was a Shezarrine. He was also a veritable mad man. Coincidence? I think not. And the Hero of Kvatch was also the Divine Cruscader, having reclaimed the relics of and taken on the mantle of Pelinal prior to becoming the Madgod. 3. Then there's the Last Dragonborn, who has not only defeated Alduin and so rid Sovngarde of his soul snare there, but is a mortal with the soul of a dragon (like a higher, more refined version of lycanthropy if you think about it), and Akatosh (the source of the dragons and Dragonborns) may or may not be a trickster disguise for Shor to make him more palatable to the elves who venerated Auriel (Drewmora makes a good case for that). The Dragonborn defeats Miraak thanks to forbidden knowledge learned from old Herma Mora, and he also investigated the Briarhearts to help Neloth learn how he might replace his own heart with a heart stone from Red Mountain. (Whether heart stones are themselves bits of the Heart of Lorkhan or just ore that had been influenced by its divinity, a connection between the two is undeniable. And it's not really clear whether the Heart was actually destroyed or cause to disappear somewhere else.) Were Hircine able to bring all these seemingly disparate parts together-himself, the ghost of Shor from Sovngarde, Talos from Aetherius, Sheogorath (Hero of Kvatch) from Oblivion, the Last Dragonborn, and a heart stone (or the Heart of Lorkhan itself) (and maybe even the moons, Lorkhan's shattered corpse)-into a single whole, with the help of Kyne and the Skyforge, I think it seems pretty certain that the result would be an exceedingly powerful Shor/Lorkhan 2.0.

[@Shadowpack95]

The Armor being craft able could be because Kodlak, an old werewolf was burned on the Forge, his essence both Nord and Were added to the Forge

[@richtravis9562]

That or because the companions regularly fill the basin in the underforge with Were blood...

[@VitriolicVermillion]

Nice! This actually feels like a case of "how did I not get this one on my own?"

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

There's a lot of problems with this theory. 1: The idea that Shezarrine is not Shor incarnate is contingent on the idea that since Shor exists in Sovengard at the same time that the dragonborn is alive, and the dragonborn is believed to be Shezarrine, therefore, Shor and the Shezarrine exist at the same time. However, this logic isn't sound for several reasons. One of which being, that the only reason the dragonborn is thought to be Shezarrine is because Shor is missing. If you could prove Shor and the dragonborn existed at the same time that would be evidence that the last dragonborn isn't Shezarrine, not that Shezarrines aren't Shor. There's really no evidence that Hircine has notable connections to Kyne. While both have some connections to nature and hunts, Hircine has far more connection to J'ffre, wearing the skull of his champion, believed to have tried to woo the elvish god. The theory is based around the idea that Hircine was made from Lorkhans heartless torso and animal parts, but there's no suggestion that the animal parts we see are animal parts associated with or attached by kyne, are animal parts at all, nor that his torso lacks a heart Hircine also has very little connection to Lorkhan, especially to any 'trickster' aspects. He's the fairest and most honest of daedric princes. Following strict honorable rules, and not tricking anyone. Nor do i think Hircine and Mara having connections to the same animal suggests that they have connections to each other. To Nords, Mara is a goddess of familiar love. And is a wolf really so odd a choice for a god of family and fertility? Nor does Nirni have connection to Kyne since Kyne exists in Khajiiti myth whole sale, and having no connection to Hircine there as well. Also, the ability to craft ancient nord armor is directly linked to Kodlak's funeral, and he was a werewolf at time time of his cremation. Plenty of werewolves were cremated in the skyforge, and I really don't think it originally had a connection to Hircine prior to the curse inflicting the companions

[@dalucke8907]

Bethesdas Lore writers: "Write that down, that's great.

[@ogrejoe8862]

Shor is portrayed as a warrior in the form of s fox, Foxes are know for being cunning and tricky...

[@docwhiskey996]

The Dragonborn is an aspect of Lorkhan. Kyne is the woman on the 7000 steps. Kyne was Lorkhans wife. Lorkhan vs Akatosh. Its always Lorkhan vs Akatosh.

[@RalorPenwat]

I'm sorry. I feel this is a step too far down the rabbithole. We already have in-world confirmation that the underforge was not part of the skyforge originally and the companions weren't always associated with Hircine either. Occam's razor here. I feel a better explanation for the confusion regarding Mara having ties to Akatosh and Lorkhan is the interesting theory I saw recently that Akatosh is not really Auriel but Lorkhan. If you think about it, it makes much more sense. Akatosh revealed himself to Elysia to guide Men against the Aylieds. That's not really something that sounds like Auriel. It fits much better for Akatosh to be Lorkhan, especially since it also resolves dragonborns in a clean way. By which i mean having dragonblood, or even as it is called sometimes "the blood of Akatosh" and often being aspects of Lorkhan. Being aspects of two opposing gods never really made sense. But if you consider the very valid possibility that Akatosh was Lorkhan the whole time that makes sense. It even adds up another Skyrim mystery - Why, when supposedly trying to usurp Akatosh, does Alduin go to Sovngarde, the domain of Shor? Sure, you could explain this away with both being realms of Aetherius, but that's not a very good explanation when he very clearly stuck around. It doesn't solve the issue with the Convention but it makes a lot more sense in many other, more important places. I definitely think Lorkhan being sundered makes the most sense. But I don't think that Hircine fits into that. If I had to guess, the intent is probably that Shor, (a sundered, primary fragment of Lorkhan) likely was still incarnate during the war, and then died at the end, ending up in Sovngarde with Tsun. This also makes a lot of sense because it ties Kyne a lot more effectively to the dragons, which was always an outstanding question because of her connection to the Voice, the power of dragons. If Akatosh is Lorkhan, then this makes more sense as well.

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

I dont see how the companions not being originally associated with hircine matters. And what in-world confirmation is there to date the underforge differently to the skyforge?

[@RalorPenwat]

@-gemberkoekje-5547 Trying to tie hircine to other things through the companions when that is a recent development doesn't make sense. The underforge being there but unused for centuries doesn't make much sense either, especially considering the utilitarian lifestyle of the nords.

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

@@RalorPenwat The companions became worshippers of hircine. I don't see how they needed to always have been. And it was there unused is because the nords didn't want to worship hircine. They aren't deadra worshippers by culture. The companions are an outlier, and a hidden one, whom used the holy site which was already there.

[@pastorlongshore]

What is this in-world confirmation? The UESP simply states that the under forge was there before the companions settled in/built Jorrvaskr

[@johnwaters1768]

So the reason Akatosh and Auriel are the same god yet akatosh sided with men and auriel with elves all just comes down to dragonbreaks. Particularly the dragonbreak that happened when a group of people danced on top of the white gold tower and purposely caused the dragonbreak so that they could seperate all of the aspects of the gods into different entities. So effectively they started out as 2 cultures interpretations of one god, but through the dragonbreak became two seperate gods, same with most of the aedra. At points in time all the timelines reconverge and everything that happened in each version of the world also is true. it is paradoxical and all that good stuff but todd howard ya know it just works. as far as alduin going to sovngarde to usurp akatosh that isnt true i dont think. Alduin was created by akatosh to devour the world at the end of the kalpa (cycle) and while its not totally clear when the planned end of the world was SUPPOSED to happen, alduin is going to sovngarde to feed on souls to gain strength to then devour the world so the cycle could start anew. The khajit have something like an alduin in their religion but its represented as a serpent eating its tail. And lorkhan does still exist albeit in fragments through shezzarines and a largely accepted theory is that the reason Shor is absent in sovngarde is because we, the dragonborn, are a shezzarine and possibly a reincarnation of shor himself.

[@kevintheprincedragon8661]

God damn, here I thought I've heard more insane theories that make sense. You seriously need a bigger audience from the video alone. They are really good

[@nickkowalski8057]

Wow, very detailed and convincing, looking forward to more!

[@Uriseph]

This is an interesting theory, however I have one big problem with it. Lorkhan was not conceived as a deity in TES lore until Morrowind while Hircine is clearly depicted in Daggerfall. There isn't a single mention of Lorkhan in any book within Daggerfall. The only way your theory would be possible is if Kirkbride retroactively connected the two of them secretly without making it common knowledge to the TES fanbase. Could Kirkbride have done this? Maybe. I just doubt it.

[@Swagorath]

thank you for my new headcannon also makes the fornsworn quite interesting, because they essentially worship the other side of talos.

[@TheFos88]

I have always loved the Forsworn and hated they are just another common automatic enemy type. So dearly want them expanded upon and at least a neutral entity for the player.

[@nbmoleminer5051]

I think Kyne, Yffre and Hircine are part of the same oversoul.

[@Forced2DoThis1]

I've been more inclined to think/feel that Hircine is an aspect of Lorkhan for a long time.

[@weenug489]

Just in case people see this I was theory crafting while writing this comment so I Apologize if it doesn't make a lot of sense Holy smokes this video has given me a lot to think about, but the one thing that keeps coming up in my head is that Kajiti story with Hircine and Niri that is brought up briefly, it is Y'ffre who becomes lovers with Niri, and out of jealousy, Hircine kills Y'ffre's champion elf and wears it as a mask, now that elk head could be the head the trickster uses to build himself a new body, but something about that don't feel right (to me at least) and I know he wasn't using Kajiti mythos in the video but in that mythos, Lorkhaj (Kajit version of Shezzar) is actually younger than Hircine, with Hircine being from the Second litter of Et'ada/gods and Lorkhaj being Fadomi's last kid. Another thing to think about is another way Lorkhaj could have gotten his trickster attributes. In the Kajiti mythos, Namira is said to have corrupted Lorkhaj, maybe a part of the corruption is adding more trickster elements to Lorkhaj's personality, so when he split when he died the trickster would be a more evil/negative force in the new world it (kinda) made.

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

I love this, connecting a puzzle that we never knew existed.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

The Chad Hircine enjoyer vs the virgin Sheogorath fanboy

[@Nehauon]

Idk, those Sheogorathers get quite mad.

[@ca_kay]

Though I disagree, this made me realize something else. Hircine is related to Lorkhan, but that's because he is the heart of darkness that Azurah ripped out. This darkness then became the hunting cat of the Khajit. This is why the ritual works - by removing their hearts, the Forsworn are inviting Hircine to fill the space with his darkness. This also explains why they revere Namira, since she is the one who placed that darkness inside Lorkhan. But in that case, where did the darkness originally come from, and how come the Khajit reference Hircine beforehand? The answer is that Yffre loved Nirni, but when Nirni was chosen to replace Lyg as the world corpse, Yffre fell unto darkness under Namira's influence. When Ariel and Trinimac took out Lorkhan's heart, Yffre tried to possess him through the gap to bring Nirni back and unravel the mortal world, but Azura stopped it by ripping Yffre out. This event became represented as a second moon, with the dark moon being symbolic of that moment, and the darkness became Hircine just like how Trinimac became Malacath. Thus, Hircine is related to Lorkhan, but Hircine is actually Yffre, with Hircine being the corruption of Nature while Yffre was the creator of nature. Hircine preys upon himself. He wears the skull of his originally peaceful self. It would be even wackier if Nirni is in fact Mara, and it was Yffre that was jealous of her relationship with Lorkhan, not Hircine jealous of Yffre.

[@AppealtoImmortality]

I was sceptical, but the briarhearts sold me tbh. That is simply too flagrant a parallel for Bethesda to include accidentally. Also we can clearly observe, that the briarheart transformation, which mimicks the sundering of Lorkhan, does in fact work with Hircine‘s blessing. And we know, that magic on Nirn must always have an origin, ergo the Lorkhan ritual can evidently be facilitated by Hircine.

[@zeeninjatrongamer5652]

I love this theory! This was the content I've been looking for as I've watched all of the fudge stuff long-ago. Also it makes my ESO character even more lore accurate as he uses the "BriarHeart" armour for sustainability🎉 keep it up man I love this stuff!!

[@wickedcrayon6022]

Cool theory. I’m not sure how/why Shor would be able to see the future though. That sort of thing seems like it would belong to Akatosh alone.

[@honestkyn718]

They are often conflicted with one another as all of are basicly a part of the godhead. Basicly aka is order, lok is chaos and the interplay makes mortality deep lore is complicated

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

Herma mora, one of the only deadea mentioned mutch in nord theology can also see the future.

[@HeWhoComments]

Awesome video. Your analyses are very compelling!

[@Cronoo]

This the video nate aluded to in his new video? Congrats on the collab. Time to catch up on that sweet lore theories

[@briskhockey]

No, Black Rose has a video on giants that was released before Nates video on giants, so check out that one

[@Cronoo]

@briskhockey thanks for the heads up. Only been following for the Starfield content didn't realize he has a literal treasure trove of in-depth tes theory videos as well

[@derskalde4973]

This is an amazing theory, but I'm not entirely sold on this. Maybe I'm confusing something, but I think to recall, that Lorkhan led wandering elnofey/humans into battle, and that it was there, that Trinimac ripped out Lorkhans heart. If we go with your suggestion, that it was Hircine in the guise of Lorkhan, wouldn't that mean, that Hircine got his heart ripped out? But, let's say, Lorkhan was actually punished and shattered before the War of Metaphor Manifest, it could very well be, that a part of him, Shor, led the early humans in the war. It could even be, that Shor actually had the heart of Lorkhan within him, that he was the "rightful heir", so to speak, to Lorkhan, which is why the elves still call him that, and that when the aspect named Shor had the heart removed from him, that he then was more or less restricted to Sovngard.

[@Pakshee_C]

51:14 its boethiah. A few weeks ago I clipped trough the wall and you can see the armor and spikes. Just like the other boethiah statue

[@coinsilver3]

Perhaps Pelinal Whitestrake was made in the fashion of a briarheart too. If you think about his missing heart, it would make sense.

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

And he hates eleves, whom are against Lorkan. He HUNTS them. He does this alongside Morihous, the minotaur, considered to be the child of KYNE and HIRCINE. In elder scrolls online, a priest or something to Pelinal wears a wolf pelt on her head. I've also heard Shor could tell the future from someone in the comments, which could explain the Pelinal whitestrake theory.

[@Agentlefox]

My take has always been that Shezzarines are pieces of shezarr like dragons are pieces of Aka.

[@nonso3396]

Hahahaha.. Mate you've certainly got the wildest TES theories out there by a staggering mile.. This be the 3rd video I'm watching on your channel.. The letters from a friend vid was wild AF.. Loved it! But this just knocks it all outta the park man 😂. I say most definitely kissed by Sheo. I did once come up with my own theory of how Hircine came to be. Also had to do with Kyne. Not sure which of ours is more mental 😂

[@TheFos88]

Sir Rose, i happened to randomly come across your channel in my recommended, and this is the third I've watched. Absolutely love your takes, the pacing. and the quality of your videos in general. I am a fellow ancient Bethesda "scholar" and have of course watched plenty of Fudge, Drew, among a few others. You are right up there with them and being so relatively new on YT this is awesome to see. Thank you!

[@pandorasbox4238]

Not even close.

[@Galimeer5]

I think you've put more thought into this than Bethesda Edit: You've definitely put more thought into this than Bethesda

[@JakobRT]

Man i disagree whole heartedly with your theory, but that is the beauty of head cannon being up to our interpretation of cultural and game clues. Always fun to listen all ideas!

[@lincolngravemann682]

Hmmm kyne has a bird form and the HagRavins make the briar hearts

[@evellium8037]

Absolutely love your videos man. Very well made and researched.

[@highlyopinionated5611]

Yeah, I'm still more sold on the idea that Hircine is Kyne's and Lorkhan's/Shor's son, rather then an aspect of Lorkhan himself. For starters, his entire personality as shown in the lore doesn't add up with the idea of him being the trickster aspect of Shazar. The entire reason why Sheogorath was able to trick him so easily during their bet, was that Hircine was far to predictable and honest to his word to outsmart someone as random as Sheo. Wich doesn't exactly spill trickster god to me. (If we use Norse mythology as a comparison, Hircine usually comes across as more similar to the likes of Fenrir then Loki. Wich also fits with the son of Lorkhan angle, as Fenrir was a child/creation of Loki. Who is one of the real life inspirations of Lorkhan. As Alduin was inspired by Jørmungandr and Niddhøgg. Two dragons/serpants who play crucial roles during Ragnarøk. Granted, the writers were more inspired by the celtic god Chernanus when they came up with Hircine; but if we associate him with the Norse Fenrir, that definitely creates some interesting implications. Especially considering that Shor is mainly inspired by Odin. If you know your scandinavian folklore, especially regarding Ragnarøk, you know what implications I'm speaking about.) Also, Hircine's sphere of influence, the hunt and predation, feel like an aspect of Kynareth's realm of nature. Predation is an integral part of the circle of life; as without predators, the herbivores would suffer sickness and literally eat their environment, by consuming all the plant life. I feel this indicates that he came from her/is a piece of her. Wich in turn points more to a mother-son relationship then a wife-husband one. (Makes me wonder if Y'ffr could potentially be a brother/twin of Hircine, given his association with Lorkhan and that his sphere of influence are plants. Wich would add an extra layer of tragedy to the Khajit tale of Hircine striking Y'ffr down in jealousy and wearing the skull of his champion as a mask from then on.) Personally, I think the trickster aspect of Shazar is Akatosh. He is a supposed fusion of Auriel/Alduin and Lorkhan/Shor, but Skyrim presents these two as separate entities at odds with each other. So my personal theory to explain this (obvious retcon) is that either Lorkhan tricked Alessia into thinking he is Auriel so he could gain control over his arch nemesis, or Alessia knew who she was making a pact with and covered it up by saying it was Auriel/Akatosh, when really it was Lorkhan. Who has thus been secretly the head god of the imperial pantheon all along. As for why Hircine isn't an Aedra/part of the Nord pantheon: my headcanon is that, as Shazar's son, he supported his mother Kyne and the reborn warrior half of his father, Shor, in the war. When Shor fell to Trinnemac and ascended to Sovenguard, Hircine saw it as his birthright to take his place as ruler of the mortal plain, but Kyne disagreed; seeing as Shor still existed. Through technically now bound to the afterlife, due to being dead. Wich lead to a falling out between mother and son, as Kyne viewed Hircine's claim as him attempting to usurp his father and subsequently to Hircine's banishment into Oblivion, as the other gods on their side agreed with Kyne. The Wandering Elnoffe meanwhile were split and those who agreed with Kyne and still worshipped Shor as the king of the gods, went to Atmora and became the ancestors of the Nords, while those who accepted Hircine as the new head god remained on Tamriel and became the Nedes; whos original, unelvefied culture and believes are still present in the culture of the Reachmen today. (Reachfolk believes pretty clearly state Hircineto be the true ruler of the mortal world.) When Hircine created the hunting grounds as his realm, he made it to resemble Nirn as he remembers it; before men and mer built their cities. All raw, untamed nature and wild beasts. (Linking this entire concept of Hircine being cheated out of his perceived birthright and more then likely being locked out of Sovenguard back to Norse mythology; it could also put the entrance Lycanthropy thing into a new perspective. Sovenguard is pretty much just Valhalla, and the purpose of Valhalla is to gather the best warriors into an army to fight for the gods during Ragnarøk. Perhaps Sovenguard serves the same purpose for Shor and the other Nord gods, and Hircine is doing the same on the other side, by gathering werebeasts in his hunting grounds. Both sides preparing for a final showdown to determine the true ruler of Nirn once and for all. That would tie up the Norse mythology references throughout Skyrim pretty nicely; during Ragnarøk Jørmungandr (Alduin) battles Thor (Shezarine/Dragonborn) and Odin (Shor) dies at the fangs of Fenrir (Hircine), marking the final end of the world. (Obviously it's not quite the same, since Thor is killed by Jørmungandr while the Dragonborn triumphs over Alduin, but the similar dynamics are still cool to think about.)

[@grimnir8872]

This theory sort of falls apart when it is directly referenced that Talos is Shor who is Lorkhan and the Nord Pantheon was merely them viewing the nine divines through non linear time.

[@SquizbarDeAlienOfficial]

Three best Skyrim channels Epic Nate Camelworks Black Rose 🤘keep up the great videos

[@Arnaere]

>Padomay emanates into Sithis >The Dark Brotherhood venerates Sithis >Sithis emanates into Lorkhan >Lorkhan is resurrected by Kyne as Hircine >Hircine is the god of hunters, Dark Brotherhood are the hunters of men I love how congruent this is all the way down. The Bible and Gnostic writers should have had Bethesda's ES lore writers on staff.

[@biggestastiest]

i think skyrim wouldve been so much better if kynareth was to skyrim like azura is to morrowind. she's forever grieving over her late husband, and the dragonborn is largely believed to be an incarnation or a 'piece' of him, so i would like to see kyne take a much larger role in the story, maybe even guiding the main character like azura did. plus, skyrim is largely focused on the beauty of the wilds and immersed in the environment, so who would be a better candidate for a role in the story than kynareth?

[@TheMoinomedian]

This sounds like conspiracy lore; Conspiracy Lore I can get behind! This is my head canon for Hircine.

[@user-jq5rx5lp5t]

The problem with fan theories is that they always read WAY too deep into everything. As in, much deeper than the writers ever did. But dammit, is it still fun to speculate. Great video!

[@TheBlackRose3]

I actually sort of agree with you. I think many fans do wander down the wrong paths bc they take lore more seriously than Bethesda does. A lot of fans look at mysteries in these games almost scientifically, but that's the wrong way to approach fan theory. Making games is an art, not a science. So the same is true of fan theory. You need to look for symbolism, irony, humor, and other artistic clicks like that. The reason I'm so confident in this theory is bc I think there are too many of those artistic clicks to be a coincidence. But to be 100% certain Bethesda would need to confirm it, which they won't. And I'm glad bc if they did give us all the answers I'd have to find another job 🤣. Thank you for watching and I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@nobodyimportant4778]

Question: If akatosh being broken into multiple beings by the mahrukati selective damaged time for ages, did the breaking up of shezzard break space

[@nobodyimportant4778]

If an Aka piece reincarnated as a dragonborn can absorb other akatosh parts like dragons or miraak, can a shezzarine absorb parts of shezzar

[@SoiledWig]

This War of Manifest Metaphors going on between two factions of immortals on Nirn, with the idea that the old and wandering mortals are ancestors of today's mer and men, respectively, has some big implications. Perhaps the war stopped officially, but there was never any real conclusion, was there? The immortal factions are still fighting it out in the background, using the mortals of Nirn as their proxy soldiers. It's general wisdom the Daedra play with mortals' lives like toys, but the Aedra, and those in between, like Hircine, are no better. The racial discord between humans and elves would eventually disappear if it weren't for immortals' constantly stirring up trouble.

[@Wolfsbane101]

Pretty sure there is a book that confirms hircene game ended the prized deer of another god and wore it on his head, I think it’s in the bosmer lore somewhere but that kinda throws this out the window, besides making hircine someone else kinda detracts from what makes him what he is just my opinion

[@briskhockey]

It's the stag head of one of I'ffre's beasts from the Khajiti myths. The fact this commentary said he's not taking into account kahjiiti stuff kinds throws things out the window on this theory I think

[@LadySandingommOfShalott]

@TheBlackRose3 Hi The Black Rose, this one of the best Elder Scrolls Lore video's I have seen and well done with the detailed research. I would also like to add that you could possibly connect Sinding's quest name "Ill Met by Moonlight" to Kynareth and Hircine, as it has been confirmed by the Elder Scrolls wiki that it is a line from Shakepeare's play "A Midsummer Night's Dream"; where a character (Nick Bottom) is partially transformed into an animal - Puck gives him a donkey's head. But, I want to specifically focus on the line that Oberon,the Fairy King, speaks in Act II Scene 1 line 60, and I am going to quote from line 60 to line 137, in my reply to this comment. The couple's argument reminds me of how you described Hircine's attitude towards Kyne - as Hircine does not give up his pursuit towards Kyne or his pursuit in reuniting himself with Shor to become Shezzarr, so does Oberon not give up in taking Titania's changeling son, born from a woman who worshiped her (" a votaress of my order", l. 123) who has died, and making him Oberon's henchman (a page or squire). Titania accuses Oberon of infidelity and his lover was Hippolyta, an Amazon queen who was famed as both a warrior and a huntress ("buskined" = wearing hunting boots, l. 71). Oberon in turn also accuses her of loving Theseus, king of Athens and called the Duke of Athens in the play, and leading him to have love affairs with many women: (1) Perigenia (Perigouna) - her robber-father was killed by Theseus, later father of her son. (2) Aegles (possibly a corruption of 'Eagles') - the daughter of Panopeus was rejected by Theseus after his desertion of Ariadne. (3) Ariadne - the daughter of Minos, King of Crete, and it was with her help that Theseus overcame the Minotaur and escaped from the labyrinth built by Daedalus (see the Greek myth of the Minotaur) and it should be noted that Ariadne was later found by and married Dionysus (Roman name: Bacchus) the god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre. (4) Antiopa - an Amazon captured by Theseus and perhaps is to be identified with Hippolyta. Titania refutes Oberon's accusations and dismisses them as "forgeries of jealousy" (l. 81), and through elaborate and beautiful images of nature where Oberon's clamour, "brawls", l. 87 but can also be a dance - (from the French 'bransle') which involved men and women holding hands in a ring) disturbed their dancing - "ringlets" (l. 86). She describes how their arguing affects the mortals: rivers overflow (l. 91-92) so that oxen are pulling their ploughs in vain (l. 93) and the ploughmain is upset that his grain has rotted prior to ripening (l. 94-95, "the green...beard") and his sheep died of a disease, a 'murrain" (l. 97 "murrion flock"). An outdoor game is covered in mud (l. 99) and another outdoor game is covered in grass (the normal kind 😉) that is growing without check (l. 99-100). Mortals want to be cheerful and festive in the winter, but they can't (l. 101-102), and thus the Pale moon (which was supposedly a sign of rain) moistens the air (l. 104: "...washes all the air,") and causes people to get coughs and colds ("rheumatic diseases", l. 105) and that the rest of the seasons go haywire, all because of their arguing, (l. 116-117), "From our debate, from our dissension./ We are their parents and original.". Oberon then exhorts her to mend these calamities by giving her changeling son to him, and she says that she won't surrender the boy for all the wealth of Fairyland. Titania then goes on to describe how the boy came unto her and what she wants him to do when he grows up. Sorry, for the long comment and reply, but I really like it when new takes on Elder Scrolls lore comes to light and i really enjoyed your video.

[@LadySandingommOfShalott]

(Enter Oberon, the King of the Fairies, at one door, with his train; and Titania, the Queen, at another with hers) Oberon: Ill met by moonlight, proud Titania! 60 Titania: What, jealous Oberon? Fairies, skip hence. I have forsworn his bed and company. Oberon: Tarry, rash wanton! Am not I thy lord? Titania: Then I must be thy lady. But I know When thou hast stolen away from Fairyland, 65 And in the shape of Corin sat all day Playing on pipes of corn, and versing love To amorous Phillida. Why art thou here Come from the farthest step of India? - But that, forsooth, the bouncing Amazon, 70 Your buskined mistress and your warrior love, To Theseus must be wedded ; and you come To give their bed joy and prosperity. Oberon: How canst thou thus, for shame, Titania, Glance at my credit with Hippolyta, 75 Knowing I know thy love to Theseus ? Didst not thou lead him through the glimmering night From Perigenia, whom he ravished, And make him with fair Aegles break his faith, With Ariadne, and Antiopa? 80 Titania: These are the forgeries of jealousy: And never since the middle summer's spring Met we on hill, in dale, forest, or mead, By paved fountain or by rushy brook, Or in the beached margent of the sea 85 To dance our ringlets to the whistling wind, But with thy brawls thou hast disturbed our sport. Therefore the winds, piping to us in vain, As in revenge have sucked up from the sea Contagious fogs; which, falling in the land, 90 Hath every pelting river made so proud That they have overborne their continents. The ox hath therefore stretched his yoke in vain, The ploughman lost his sweat, and the green corn Hath rotted ere his youth attained a beard. 95 The fold stands empty in the drowned field, And crows are fatted with the murrion flock; The nine-men's-morris is filled up with mud, And the quaint mazes in the wanton green For lack of tread are undistinguishable. 100 The human mortals want their winter cheer; No night is now with hymn or carol blessed. Therefore the moon, the governess of floods, Pale in her anger, washes all the air, That rheumatic diseases do abound; 105 And thorough this distemperature we see The seasons alter; hoary-headed frosts Fall in the fresh lap of the crimson rose, And on old Hiems' thin and icy crown An odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds 110 Is, as in mockery, set. The spring, the summer, The childing autumn, angry winter change Their wonted liveries, and the mazed world By their increase now knows not which is which. And this same progeny of evils comes 115 From our debate, from our dissension. We are their parents and original. Oberon: Do you amend it, then: it lies in you. Why should Titania cross her Oberon ? I do but beg a little changeling boy 120 To be my henchman. Titania: Set your heart at rest. The fairy land buys not the child of me. His mother was a votaress of my order, And in the spicèd Indian air by night Full often hath she gossiped by my side, 125 And sat with me on Neptune's yellow sands Marking th'embarkèd traders on the flood, When we have laughed to see the sails conceive And grow big-bellied with the wanton wind; Which she, with pretty and with swimming gait 130 Following -her womb then rich with my young squire- Would imitate, and sail upon the land To fetch me trifles, and return again As from a voyage, rich with merchandise. But she, being mortal, of that boy did die, 135 And for her sake do I rear up her boy; And for her sake I will not part with him.

[@erikdeusenberry5307]

Talos is one possible support for this theory.

[@shorts4bots]

ESO lore masters should watch this even if it's not true according to their writings

[@wallacewilliams535]

good essay. lots to chew on. Hircine is pleased with your offering. hm... so are you saying Hircine is the corrupt/cursed/daedric... maybe lycanthropic aspect/ night phase of Shezzar, which is the split Lorkhan-Mundus? or is that just how i'm hearing you? precedent: Sheogorath v Jyggalag the nocturnal, chthonian (lunar dominant) phase and the solar dominant, kynareth phase precedents: 1. Osiris-Set becomes Horus (cyclical) & Set (Isis = Mara) 2. dual aspect of greek gods good zeus/bad zeus, poseidon... the skyforge would then be the larger unifying/cyclical symbol of nature itself day/night (divided being: solar/lunar, warrior/trickster, manifest/occult) with the a solar figure rising from it's ashes/lesser/reduced being (yet 2 eyes shining at night) with respect to the "totems" being added -- makes sense if you're worshipping Hircine, the shrine would have some trophies/buffs/idols it'd be rather threadbare if not... Shezzarines are Avatars/heroes, divine sparks/fragments of the god

[@romanrussu3403]

Great theory👏👏👏

[@Agentlefox]

I want this in Odyssey of the Dragonborn when it finally hits release. Really badly. This is such a good take with the shear number of different varieties of apotheosis in TES. I do think it would have felt like Broken Steel did for Fallout 3 if it had been a dlc basis for Skyrim, but would be perfect for a fully fleshed out mod expansion.

[@simpled5755]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Odyssey of the Dragonborn?

[@Agentlefox]

@@simpled5755 Odyssey of the Dragonborn is the upcoming sequel mod to Legacy of the Dragonborn. Legacy is this huge mode that has you building up a sort of mansion/museum/organization for finding artifacts, adventure, and major pieces of lore. Once of the best mods in my opinion. It gives a good reason to do all of the mod questlines you pick up over time, because it integrates with any mod with a decent following, plus there's a simple guide to integrating any mod into it. There are a bunch of lore quests built-in as well. Odyssey is going to be more about exploring out into the outside world and a lot more ambitious than Legacy already certainly is.

[@simpled5755]

@@Agentlefox ooh, cool! Ty for taking the time to explain it to me

[@cwalser544]

I thought Yisgramor was Hircine.

[@Cronoo]

Damn bro. This shit is deep.

[@-gemberkoekje-5547]

What does his head mean? I heard it was the head of Yffres great elk.

[@aurochtamer]

I couldn't help but get a laugh out the screen showing Hircine as weighing 20lbs and only being worth 300 gold.

[@charleshill3503]

Do the void next! Fudgemuppet doesn't explain it very well. I think you could do it better!

[@williamcurtis4686]

I feel like trickster fits Sheo better but not jygalag

[@michaelbalcom5233]

Didn't Sithis create Lorkhan (Shezarr) not Padomay

[@michaelbalcom5233]

I think I can agree there is definitely a connection between Lorkhan and Hircine personally, I think he's the second creation of Sithis after Lorkhan. As for Kyne being tricked I don't think this fits as well as you try to force it. More likely if Hircine is a resurrection of Lorkhan I think Kyne most likely did it with what she had left, which is the Heartless torso of Lorkhan creating a colder "heartless" version of her husband and the despair of her failure to bring him back could have split her between the part that still loved him "Mara" and the part that believes she must protect her husband's world from the corruption she made "Kyne" which is hinted by the Khajiit treating Kyne and Mara as one.

[@peanutbutter6720]

Sithis is Padomay in a sense. Padomay is a lot more like the concept of chaos whereas Sithis is the more personified and active version.

[@mindlessage]

Aren’t the Forsworn Bretons?

[@blindbeholder9713]

Bretons are descended from Nords

[@peanutbutter6720]

@@blindbeholder9713no, they’re descendants of the Nedes

[@highlyopinionated5611]

The Forsworn are a faction of the Reachmen people, who share Nede ancestors with the Bretons. The difference is that the ancestors of the Breton's were enslaved and culturally assimilated by elves, whereas the ancestors of the Reachmen stayed free and thous retained most of their original nedic culture. While they certainly did change over time, the Reachmen are the closest thing to the ancient Nedes that can still be found on Tamriel today.

[@mitchhaelann9215]

You've put a lot of thought into this. Buuuut I think you're giving bethesda's writing team too much credit. I don't think they put that much effort into the story. Not really. They kind-of slap things together as they go and leave it to the fans to piece it together and make it make sense. Like Fromsoft does.

[@kritizismmusics9737]

We have found the real slim shady. Holy shit 😂❤

[@bait644]

I'm not convinced...

[@pandorasbox4238]

No, Hircine and Lorkan are NOT the same being. You're really bad for misinterpreting things.

[@EldritchMage3922]

Talk about a hook 😮

[@ProneCreature47]

Yeah, I don't agree with this at all. Hircine is definitely NOT Lorkhan. And I strongly disagree with the Shezarr 2.0 thing.

[@sauvagesauvage1869]

This a buncha buuuullshit

[@DBeskar6605]

6:00 if you do a specific quest before you get to this point. The king ulfric killed will be present meaning alduin have return during the game by the time this has been said by Shor. Meaning Shor might be avoiding the dragonborn because they are two pieces of a broken person. 21:56 there is a pretty solid case to be made that Shor or lorkan is a daedic prince of the mortal realm and multiple daedric princes have multiple realms and one mostly has lots of pocket realms. It is completely possible hircine is both not a original daedra, became one, is the prince of multiple realms or the different parts of shezzare are princes of different realms and this means his original state makes hircine an original spirit by virtue of being a fragment of one. In short, all of the best theories can all be true at the same time if you are correct. 34:30 nope, Socrates was executed for the charge of "perverting the youth" which he did by teaching monotheism. You can learn about his very Abrahamic sounding monotheistic idea of God in the book Plato's Republic particularly the ending of the book which can be found on KZbin for free in audiobook form. Also, planets tend to be the body of gods in the elder scrolls and the THREE associated with lorkan are the TWO moons and Nirn. Implying three primary forms of the newly broken god(s). 57:44 how does hircine effect the mortal world so much despite what happens in oblivion? Maybe because he actually has power over nirn. The only other being to have a similar amount of power, being able to manifest as themselves on nirn without a shrine, is sheogorath who is also a split personality and a none original daedra who was already an orginal spirit. Sheogorath is the same as hircine would be in both ability to interact with the mortal plane despite the protective powers on nirn amd they are both broken in the way lorkan would be. Sheogorath also has the period every era when he becomes his orginal self, just as every era has a blood moon. Why did the daedra make sheogorath? Because he was too powerful and they betrayed him exactly the same way lorkan would have been betrayed. Why would those who sided with lorkan betray him. Because they found out he wasn't entirely who he said he was. The loyalists probably fought for Hircine exactly how the nords say until he was found out and those who fought with him in the war would betray him after the war and after he was found out not before. Or maybe because time is convoluted both happened from different perspectives but the end result is the same so the outcome doesn't depend on whose story is right or more correct. Regardless, the daedra who share something's in common with Hircine may not be exception but may be tied to lorkan making the story more coherent with through lines. Perhaps sheogorath is similar to shezzar because he is another fragment and he was betrayed the same way because he was too powerful and created the same threat the daedra already witnessed happen before. Hermes Mora also became a daedric prince because he being a Powerful spirit predicted another spirit one of his sisters was threat to existence and took her out and her power. The same story keeps playing out with variations. Hircine and Shor are simply the most powerful that have a direct connection to humanity and aren't a threat to the nature of shezzar. They don't want sheogorath or even jyyaglag back because despite their power they would be destructive to the purpose of nirn and all thos effort. I am not convinced Hermes Mora would be part of shezzar except he fits the trickster part of shezzar. Infact both sheogorath and Mora do. Maybe hircine is weaker not just because he has. Some of the warriors honor but also because much of his trickster is in these other two and mora has a deep connection with both solstiem and the Nords. The only othe daedra become a daedric prince by such betrayal and defialing is trinimac who was the enemy of shor and ended shor and was transformed and shamed by boethia, who is often a female who also treats mortals as part of contests of arena combat. Which is moral like a warrior but she is also a trickster, tamriel is called the arena and both hircine and shor would have things in common with boethia who is probably one of their lovers who unlike the rest is loyal to them both and wants her lover back. Which is why she would put trinimac in his place and shame him as revenge. Something Giants in Skyrim also do to orcs, and they have a connection to shor in their body paint. They are also actively doing exactly the kind of thing boethia did except their connections to shor are very much so not connected to boethia in anyway. Meaning the being loyal to shor did what beothia did despite no other connection to boethia. Implying they had the same revenge with different reasons to desire it.

[@Cronoo]

Wow Sheogorath&Jyyaglag and Hircine&Shor really do sound like parallels when you explain it like that. It makes so much sense.

[@andrescabrera786]

Sounds like a bunch of nonsense.

[@TheFos88]

Moon Cheese oplayu big old role in my sandwich. Toss that bad boy in some panko and bam, three stikes!

[@Nehauon]

Interesting though

[@Ozan-qr7hu]

Bro just destroyed all lore theories with a single sentenced.