History-Makers: Machiavelli

If I could have a conversation with any person in History, it's Machiavelli. Easy. And I wouldn't even have to do anything, I'd just say "So, tell me about Rome" and watch the fireworks. In the meantime, I'll settle for playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood and liberating Roma with my boy Niccolò.
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[@asch304]

I can't believe this incredibly historically villianized man used to cosplay ancient rome by himself in his room to calm himself down, I mean talk about escapism

[@Midorikonokami]

Also, he trolled so hard everyone took him seriously and called him a villain.

[@Bluecho4]

That's the power of LARP for you.

[@f.boogaloospook2318]

@@Midorikonokami the first romeaboo

[@messianic_scam]

he was deluded

[@memorablegan7920]

That’s why he’s based

[@Yora21]

You either become a famous political analyst, or you troll so hard that you go down in history as a villain.

[@rawovunlapin8201]

In the end, I think that what we can learn from Machiavelli is that trolls truly are the greatest villains of all

[@MrAshCarr]

@@rawovunlapin8201 But sometimes they can be the kind of villains you love to hate

[@Edax_Royeaux]

I've learned writing a book ironically is a bad idea. Karl Marx had sarcasm in his manifesto and a century after the fact and translated into another language and the context behind the "joke" is long gone.

[@twistedtachyon5877]

@@Edax_Royeauxtruth. machiavelli gets a pass from me on account of the "it'd be nice to write this book and not be tortured afterwards" plan.

[@saber1epee0]

This+++

[@TheTrainmobile]

"It is my intention to write a book that will be useful, at least to those who read it intelligently..." I know a clap back when I see one. What an absolute savage.

[@cloudkitt]

Kind of a clap forward

[@Krahazik]

Apparently there were lots of people back in the day who missed that line, or couldn't comprehend what it ment. Same thing.

[@robertdicke7249]

@@Krahazik It seems American public schools cant comprehend what that line means cause when I was taught about this dude I was taught this guy is a scheming tyrant and like the sheep try not to be I never questioned this until it was brought to my attention to just now.

[@DaBeezKneez]

Complete biased rhetoric by the creator of this content. Instead of just giving facts and information, every sentence he regurgitates has his subjective opinion.

[@robertdicke7249]

@@DaBeezKneez He gave only facts and information, "information" includes opinions as in he "informed" you of his opinion. Also all opinions are subjective so describing one as such is redundant. If all you want is the straight facts of things then you need to go to a different reality. Philosophically speaking you can only know one thing which is that you exist. Even with basil assumptions anything beyond your scope of experiences relies on accepting the assertions of other sources. Even if you decide that mass consensus is sufficient(which would require you to accept several religions that contradict into your life if applied as a standard) then even then things like history still wont qualify. History is based on peoples interpretations of accounts and evidence then cross referencing them for reliability, even when deemed reliable these things still are free from spreading miss information. So you will not get any "facts" with this subject friend. What you are REALLY looking for is a specific persons or group of peoples opinion that you in your own lack of understanding for some reason accept the assertion that they are most qualified to give. Or one can accept its difficult to be sure of knowing much of anything and that 1 of any number of different claims to the same question can happen to be the correct. Perhaps hearing all the claims is more enlightening then closing your mind to only one possibility.

[@archsteel7]

People who hate Machiavelli: "He's a scheming little monster who advocates for tyrants!" Machiavelli: "R/whoosh"

[@anonymoussourcream3175]

Thanks I hate it

[@PhileasLiebmann]

Beat me to it

[@bestwind4618]

People would then be like r/iHaveReddit

[@thecure2685]

Today I learned that Machiavelli would've been a mobile user

[@MaladyKayjo]

Archsteel r/wooooshhasfouros

[@floris2971]

last time i was this early the *ROMAN EMPIRE WAS SAWED IN HALF* to show the power of flex tape

[@sirapple589]

But did you repair it using only the power of religion?

[@longschlongsilver7628]

Guess Flex tape can't fix everything

[@spookyshadowhawk6776]

@@sirapple589 He got German flagellants in line to do it, each inspired by their own miracle whip. They were Very popular during the time of Black Death.

[@thepacifistassassin9704]

Ah, Diocletian. Really wanted to show how well Flex Tape would work.

[@embasorangiratina36]

@@thepacifistassassin9704 It's a real shame he never realized that it hadn't been invented yet.

[@Syryu]

Super Villain: It is as Machiavelli said! 'It's better to be feared than loved!' Heroically Informed Protagonist: Actually Machiavelli meant that in a situation where you had to choose between fear and love, fear was safer, but a ruler had to work so he wasn't flat out hated. Villain: ....What? Protagonist: Yeah. And Machiavelli was very much for the Republic and people working together for the greater good of the Republic. So....by trying to put the entire world under your rule, you're actually going against just about everything Machiavelli stood for. Villain: What! But... I! Protagonist *Holds up the Prince* You never actually read this book thoroughly and intellectually did you? *Cue Villainous Breakdown*

[@merrittanimation7721]

Reading the classics: it'll save your life some day.

[@federicoarmada8775]

How does “putting the entire world under your role” contradict the whole “people working together for the greater good”? Aren’t people in the so called free republics competing against his compatriots for who gets enough money to live comfortably while not caring about whatever happens to the rest of the nation? Why would a dictatorship necessarily make that worse?

[@admontblanc]

@@federicoarmada8775 it doesn't, and I'm sure that Machiavelli (knowing full well you can't get rid of all princes just because you like democracy more) at least partly intended for the book to also advise princes on how to be better rulers. That aside, the main problem with dictatorships is that while one dictator might be a genius and improve everything a lot, people aren't eternal and good one is pften succeeded by a greedy, incompetent one. Just look at Caesar Augustus who many people consider the greatest emperor of Rome, even though he suffered multiple setbacks with his succession, even though he made enormous efforts to ensure his heir would be the best suited person possible to succeed him, in the end he had no choice but to appoint a man who had always been in the last spots of his mind to succeed him.

[@michellevirinam2561]

Federico Armada Dictators aren‘t neccessarily worse than democracy, but ruthless people often advance more than people who care for the general good. This leads to dictators being, generally speaking, people you wouldn‘t want to have absolute power.

[@federicoarmada8775]

@@michellevirinam2561 Succession is a problem in any form of government. Better to have one person with absolute power who could be bad but also would be capable of killing off traitors, maffia bosses and pedophiles than having a constant succession of democraticly chosen traitors and pedophiles who depend on external financial support to stay in power.

[@andyrihn1]

“Machiavelli is the most criminally misunderstood writer in history” Nietzsche would like to have a word with you...before he has a nervous breakdown

[@alexanderbyrne9684]

Nice

[@ozkul_arda200]

It wasn't a nervous breakdown it was a bruh moment

[@sirrliv]

And before he laments not living long enough to literally punch Hitler in the face for forever distorting and bastardizing Nietzschian philosophy worse than Hideki Tojo did to the Bushido Code.

[@ZachValkyrie]

And I bet Orwell won't be far behind...

[@PhileasLiebmann]

Nietzsche misunderstood? Hm, nah! Abused, distorted and misappropriated by the Nazis? Yes.

[@stevenjlovelace]

So Machiavelli got exiled from Florence the same way Blue got exiled from Red's comfy chair next to the fireplace. Now he's doomed to lecture from a white abyss.

[@DarkestElemental616]

We can enjoy the improved animation, though.

[@ryanbarrie9143]

Plot twist!

[@joxerthemighty9148]

guess he needs to develop his own lecture playground, since history is mainly wars recorded maybe a man cave full of flags?

[@JaelaOrdo]

“Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge for slight injuries - for heavy ones they cannot.” - Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli

[@rajkotancevic3565]

I dont think it applies anymore since theres much difference in between then dueling with sharp big knifes for hurt honour to present day venting on yt comment section. : D

[@Lord_Of_Night]

@@rajkotancevic3565 It's also pretty metaphorical. An example, instead of physically wounding them, financially wounding would also prevent them from going against you.

[@rajkotancevic3565]

@@Lord_Of_Night Someone that realy wants to hurt you will find a way.Thats like saying someone wont rob you because law says so.

[@Vespuchian]

@@rajkotancevic3565 Very true, people accepted the results of duels. Joking aside, the original point still stands: Machiavelli is advocating in this passage that if you have to deal with an enemy it's best to either resolve the issue magnanimously, thus removing motivation for future conflict, or defeat them overwhelmingly, so they are neither capable of later retaliation nor motivated to make the attempt. Punitively slapping down a rival might work in the short term but now they're both motivated to return the favour and still have the resources to do so.

[@WakkaMadeInYevon]

@@Vespuchian of course everyone knows having a persistent rival makes you 10x cooler by association so Machi loses out on this one.

[@michaelscott6022]

Big Mach: "Hey, guys, so this is what I wrote..." Everyone else: *Proceeds to take the EXACT OPPOSITE MEANING* Big Mach: "...I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

[@ThatRandomEncounterGuy]

Welcome to my World. I forgot Godwin's Law.

[@rawovunlapin8201]

Who knew that sarcasm doesn't translate well in the written word /s

[@coreytaylor447]

the bible: first time?

[@devinsiner5489]

Books they are useful when you actually think about the words that are on the pages.

[@ThatRandomEncounterGuy]

Devin Siner it also helps when people don’t overanalyze your worldbuilding and write their own subtext in the margins.

[@joeevans5770]

Machiavelli trying to divert a river with Leonardo da Vinci where's that mission Assassins Creed???????????

[@BonaparteBardithion]

The misadventures of Machiavelli and da Vinci would be an awesome show, especially if they decide to go alternate history with it - as people often do with da Vinci.

[@paradoxacres1063]

It's not mentioned in Assassin's Creed (or any work of Fiction) because Leonardo da Vinci is always put on a *pedestal* so no one wants to talk about his mistakes 😅

[@Scarletraven87]

It was about diggin a channel and divert the river. What they did instead was putting up some kerbstone technology at the river mouth.

[@clockworkkirlia7475]

@@BonaparteBardithion Alternate history Leonardo Da Vinci is probably the best way to make him interesting. We got the least productive possible Leonardo, and he had so many amazing ideas!

[@aubreyhuff46]

@@clockworkkirlia7475 Well that's because many great men such as Leonardo get lost in time. They never are found to be great by those of the time. If he was given proper backing he couldve moved Medicine and mechanical technologies by a good bit of time.

[@weldonwin]

Machiavelli: *(Wearing a Beret and Glasses)* I write Political treatises ironically, not that *You* would get it

[@stefanwalicord2512]

I love it

[@neroblack2704]

To be fair they did in fact not get it.

[@DanteTorn]

@@neroblack2704 That's part of the joke weldonwin is making. (I'm just explaining neutrally here btw, not being like "THAT'S THE JOKE DUMBASS LOL" like you tend to see.)

[@neroblack2704]

@@DanteTorn yes, I know.

[@unflexian]

_"Egypt is in Africa"_ - Machiavelli, 2019

[@vermilionrubin]

Also that (in)famous quote: 'better to be feared than loved', if I remember good, it was in the context of: 'if you can't have both... and, for the love of God, don't make people hate you'.

[@Zajin13]

Yep, pretty much. I believe to remember that he directly advised to completely destroy a political opponent rather than let them hang around alive supposedly powerless because bitter feelings linger and insulted people will never be quiet for their whole live or something along those lines.

[@ryuj7693]

pretty much, although there is a theme in the chapter of directed fear. be cruel to those that have wronged you/ the state but not their relatives. he also hedges a lot of the cruelty in the context of war and concludes by saying that you can not control if the people love you but you can control their fear.

[@kaimagnus5760]

"If one can not be both, It is better to be feared than loved" is the exact quote. An emphasis on the IF is needed it seems lol.

[@minerva9104]

kai magnus And he 100% also says that you want to be feared without being hated.

[@kaimagnus5760]

@@minerva9104 Being hate almost guarantees that people will throw their lives away to see you dead so that's definitely not what a Prince would want.

[@SonofSethoitae]

So, Blue loves Machiavelli because he too laid awake at night thinking about Rome?

[@TheDiplomancer]

Real recognize real

[@jvtagle]

SonofSethoitae Cyan in shambles

[@xyAKMxy]

Any self-respecting man or woman in this day and age spends every night thinking about Rome.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@xyAKMxy Nah. Achaemenids for life.

[@realdeanhunter]

You don't?

[@Cheatera1]

Still sounds like Machiavelli was playing fourth dimensional chess while everyone else was failing to learn checkers.

[@lordmanatee439]

He was just trying to explain checkers to idiots

[@coltonwilliams4153]

@@lordmanatee439 And unfortunately, 5 fucking centuries later, the people who need to understand are still idiots!

[@ashlynlarsen1992]

@@lordmanatee439😮eiek😢❤😂j😅😂😅 Inc. BBC b bc

[@ashlynlarsen1992]

@@lordmanatee439it w😮😅 look 😮🎉 Jin oh jkjk no😅j in nthC in

[@jeremygoodwin9068]

"This stuff is comedy GOLD for the next Pope Fights." I'm sorry, so we're getting more Pope Fights? Color me excited!

[@Bobberation]

Pope Fights 3 Confirmed

[@newperve]

Machiavelli refers to a prince who always breaks his word and is always believed, but it's better not to name him. Hopefully he'll be in the next Pope Fight.

[@thotiusthemad5318]

@@Bobberation yes

[@Pigeonswaiting]

He'd DEFINITELY have a podcast if he were here today

[@rawovunlapin8201]

Dude would probably rant about the virtues of republics like no other

[@Triumph263]

"So today's topic is "How to Read the Words I Wrote and Actually Understand them." cause ya'll clearly need some help with that."

[@overgrownswamp]

... And he would still be hated, because people still can't read :(

[@petergao96]

@@overgrownswamp or listen

[@coltonwilliams4153]

He was a man ahead of his time… and unfortunately, our time as well.

[@DomenBremecXCVI]

History proved that using irony as a way of writing doesn't always work as it's hard to read the tone of your voice.

[@artofthepossible7329]

See Jane Austen, “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.” Surprisingly, never heard her be called a misogynist.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

A whole lotta problems could have been avoided if machiavelli just wrote /s at the end of the book.

[@saastamoinen32]

Domen Bremec Agreed especially when reading something that has been written hundreds of years ago, understanding the context can be a bit tricky.

[@artofthepossible7329]

@Jo True but considering how much of Austen's work involves young women trying to find advantageous marriages in order to survive adult life, and with the current state of feminism, I would have thought that at least one reader would be outraged by such state of affairs. And honestly all the potential reasons for the lack of outrage I can think of surprise me just as much as the lack of outrage in the first place.

[@somekindofflower2024]

@@artofthepossible7329 They had nothing to look forward to in those times I guess, but I also don't wonder why such popularity today. Jane Austen is kinda idealistic, she doesn't show much of the problems and conflicts going on in that time, she wanted to write about beautiful balls, dukes and relationships, something most girls thirst for nowadays. People even love Bridgerton. But yes, I wonder why some feminists don't show any revolt towards its popularity

[@pridelander06]

"The Senate sends its regards!" *tackled to ground* Probably should have ambushed Commodus at, oh, let's say, a wedding.

[@merrittanimation7721]

Maybe a gladitorial arena.

[@johnohara4788]

Probably should’ve cued the assassination with some bomb ass violin music too

[@eliburry-schnepp6012]

Or in a bath...

[@istvankarolyfarkas6125]

Usually a person stays alive long enough to whisper them a one liner. It is quite hard to instantly kill someone. (or at least this is what I heard)

[@camiblack1]

Me:Bespoken Knife: Out I am forcibly tackled to the ground then executed.

[@anthonyminyard2715]

4:53 Senator: “The Senate sends its regards” Emperor: “I am the Senate”

[@higueraft571]

This is getting out of hand, now there's two of them!

[@sirapple589]

Finally, now I can learn what the term “Machiavellian” actually means. Thanks Blue, you saved me a Google search.

[@idigamstudios7463]

The really nice thing about the breadth of work by Machiavelli is kind of a historical how too for governing. In a desperate time a of chaos the best outcome is a wise and prudent Prince to seize power and get things back in order who then has the foresight to hand over this ordered parlance and government to the republic.

[@cloudkitt]

Well odds are if you hear someone say "Machiavellian" in the wild today, they're probably just describing something as the "ends justify the means."

[@profezzordarke4362]

@@cloudkitt Or narcissist manipulative behaviour

[@ziggystatdust6008]

You can read The Prince, probably one of his most influential books. It still has influence on some political and social interactions of society today

[@raf015_2]

In Italian, we use two different words to talk about Machiavelli: "Machiavelliano" and "Machiavellico". The first one is used to describe Niccolò's works or his way of thinking, the other one is instead used as Machiavellian is commonly used in English.

[@erikquintanilla3974]

"Machiavelli didn't write down his actual advice on governing Florence because FUCKING LEAVE would've got him tortured again" I'm literally rolling right now 😂

[@lorisuprifranz]

"During history a lot of people didn't read The Prince intelligently!" Mussolini: Wait, what ?

[@BradyPostma]

"Mussolini" and "intelligently" rarely belong in the same sentence.

[@lorisuprifranz]

@@BradyPostma Exactly!

[@thatmarchingarrow]

@@BradyPostma I mean, I get all the hate Mussolini gets and everything, but there is at least one undeniably good thing Mussolini did. And that is ruining his own plans and ambitions.

[@BradyPostma]

@@thatmarchingarrow Like how Hitler did do one thing right; he killed Hitler.

[@tomasbedoya2901]

BradyPostma You can have the political opinions you want, but you don't go from exile and jail to establishing an absolute regime centered around you if you are an idiot

[@Bricriu-gj9dd]

As someone who grew up loving the idea of Machiavellian characters in writing, it's such an amazing plot twist to find out it was all a lie. But now I need a new villain to idolize...

[@zer0w0lf94]

Have you watched Code Geass or Death Note? Their protagonists should give you your fix.

[@archsteel7]

Look up Act Utilitarianism. It's a moral philosophy that while great on the surface, is based entirely on the idea of "The ends justify the means" and can get real sketchy if you apply it in certain ways. Great moral philosophy to found a villain off of

[@trippsmythoftheaurigancoal8155]

Why is he a villian? Every villian is the hero in their story...

[@TheComicbookguy78]

Liberals is a good place to look!

[@Vespuchian]

Try Lord Vetinari from Terry Pratchet's 'Discworld' series. Tyrant of the world's largest city state, he uses his power to make sure the whole place doesn't burn down, fall over, and sink into the swamp it's built on. An absolute master of civic-minded tyranny.

[@ROL4NDpkmnguide]

As an Italian that had to study this guy’s works in school I never understood he could have been so misrepresented and misunderstood outside of Italy. Thanks for bringing historical justice as always, Blue 💙

[@accelmemory]

I never even knew that I had been misunderstanding him. I'm American, and all we know of Machiavelli is that he was some sort of political genius (and an Assassins Creed character). Our schools aren't very good at covering relevant people, even for college level classes lol

[@ROL4NDpkmnguide]

Meta Grave God bless the quite high standards and nationalism of the Italian school system xD

[@infamedepatates2502]

Similar to how the Quixote is misrepresented outside of Spain

[@dDoodle788]

@@ROL4NDpkmnguide it's a shame that not a lot of people get to study macchiavelli in depth, I'm glad to be an Italian in this moment. It is also true that the Italian public school literary curriculum tend to be pretty "nationalistic" and sometimes I wonder if beacause of this we are getting a warped wiew of foreign classics (when we actually get to study them). For example in my highschool literature book Dickens was covered in three pages and a half, and half of those were just a roast of both his language and his themes ( granted that book tended to roast minor Italian authors as well from time to time so it may not be a case of blind patriotism but of blind haderence to one's opinion ).Now put this against the multiple chapter coverage of the the English literature book that could just not stop showering him with praise.

[@ROL4NDpkmnguide]

@@dDoodle788 What literature book did you use in high school?

[@lauramarschmallow2922]

So basically... The whole world thought Maciavelli was a tyranny lover because he hadn't had a /s/ sarcasm /s/ symbol watermarked all over "the prince"?

[@LunaVee3435]

I'm happy to tell you that when we study Macchiavelli in school in Italy he's treated as the brilliant politics writer he was. I learned much later that basically everywhere else he's this infamous figure, so much that the 17 century english sometimes called the devil Old Nick.

[@JaneDoe-er2sg]

Thank you for this! I had no idea “The Prince” was basically the literary equivalent of “Fight Club” in widely misunderstood criticism of power-desperate men!

[@EvilSandwich]

Machiavelli's The Prince is a how to guide in the same sense that Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal is a cookbook.

[@TillHistoryEnds]

"Machiavelli is the most criminally misunderstood writer in history and I am always mad about it." Those who read intelligently salute you.

[@davidblair9877]

5:40: France did accomplish one thing in its invasion of Italy; it discovered that Italy was 1). Rich 2). Divided, and 3). Weak. And it then proceeded to let the rest of Europe know this. The results were *ahem* predictable.

[@dcbanacek2]

Usually when France discovers something like that, England comes along to steal it.

[@somebox2959]

“A ruler will also be respected when he is a genuine friend and a genuine enemy, that is, when he declares himself ambiguously for one side and against the other” The Prince Chapter 21 Niccolo Machiavelli

[@coltonwilliams4153]

So don’t waver and flip-flop between stances. State your views and state them honestly, and even those who oppose you will respect you.

[@coltonwilliams4153]

Literally no politician of any country knows how to do that.

[@louthegiantcookie]

People always acted like he was evil, but encouraging good government is actually an act of compassion. Weak leaders, after all, only cause suffering to their people, even if their intentions are good.

[@trippsmythoftheaurigancoal8155]

Agreed.

[@Archris17]

Morality without power is as much a cruelty as power without morality, for it is there you see the pettiness tyrants who present themselves as saintly while their nation burns around them.

[@Ariaelyne]

@@Archris17 half of The Prince is about discouraging cruelty.

[@cheybat5390]

One could argue that The Prince was a sort of proto-satire, and the reason Machiavelli got his reputation was because we didn't understand satire yet

[@morganrobinson8042]

There's also some argument for using disingenuous reasoning to convince horrible people to good behavior in their own self-interest. He was probably just really tired of self-destructive idiots with city-states.

[@MasteringJohn]

I've always seen The Prince as a description of what princely governance necessarily entails (which quietly promotes republicanism by implication). Later monarchs like Frederick II criticized the book, because they wanted to believe that monarchs could serve as symbols of moral character to the people, rather than accept that the very institution necessitates abuse.

[@FirefoxisredExplorerisblueGoog]

Satire wasn't developed after Machiavelli, though. The Greeks had a rich culture of satirical stage plays. A learned man like Machiavelli would've known about these plays because philosophers like Socrates were often written into these plays as the butt of the joke.

[@nymphrodellsalavin]

The Satyrican was a satirical novel written in the first century AD... How about quasi-satire?

[@humourlessjester3584]

Even now with the rise of twitter nobody ever gets it when you post satire.

[@tizioincognito161]

Macchiavelli had truly a great inpact on italian politics, now his beloved Florence hosts one of the biggest universities specialized in political science, and a few of its alumni have been some of the best presidents of the italian republic!

[@devinsiner5489]

"Let's do some God Damn History!" -*Blue*

[@davidegaruti2582]

Yeah he'd be happy to know that Italy is a united republic , he'd be less happy to know how it's doing

[@vaderbuckeye36]

He might even say that a prince might need to temporarily restore order

[@johnnyawe1469]

@@vaderbuckeye36 but there is no doubt in my mind he would hate Mussolini.

[@davidegaruti2582]

@@vaderbuckeye36 no

[@davidegaruti2582]

@@johnnyawe1469 well , i'll be playing devil's advocate here and say that as ignorant and uncoerent as he was Mussolini loved the Prince , and he followed it in many passages , however we would have the problem of Macchiavelli a guy from the 15th 16th century having to judge a situation from the 20th century , with no clue about the tirthy years war , the french revolution , the industrial revolution and all the new technology that existed ( the radio, industrial production , electricity ecc. ecc.) all of this considered he would probably be confused by the situation

[@johnnyawe1469]

@@davidegaruti2582 Yeah, but all he'd have to know is that Mussolini is partly responsible for the constantly changing and chaotic Italian government of today. I also think he wouldn't like the fact he tried to hold onto power as long as possible one bit.

[@terre5d]

As a political science student who studied Machiavellis works i just want to say: Thank you and well done

[@Sabshark]

An aspiring tyrant and a manipulator? Is this how other nations see him? In Italian highschool they basically gave us the same interpretation Blue gave. Only, you know, stretched out on seven hours

[@xleplex7070]

In English, the word ‘Machiavellian’ is used to describe the personality trait of deceitfulness. It is even used in psychology to describe manipulators and psychopaths.

[@Sabshark]

@@xleplex7070 In Italian "Machiavellico" is instead used to mean "devilishly complicated". I'm actually surprised the English-speaking world is so hard on him.

[@Shuru10]

I always get such strange looks when I say I love Machiavelli - mostly cause there's no context for me to bring him up 😂

[@trippsmythoftheaurigancoal8155]

There is always a context to bring him up.

[@Pilgrim1st]

9:42 Machiavelli explicitly says in Discourses on Livy when discussing his belief that one person in a corrupted republic should seize sole power by violent means so as to be in a position to revive the republic that he believes the ends do justify the means. "The action may accuse by the result excuses'. There is an entire chapter dedicated to it.

[@ellienixon3437]

Machiavelli: One day I'll write a book about you Ezio: Make it short

[@Peristerygr]

Eagerly waiting for Pope Fights that includes the Borgias.

[@merrittanimation7721]

I hope for a Savonarola cameo.

[@Sketchman911]

*_WHERE IS THE APPLE!?_*

[@biliminsrlar5752]

Last time I was this early China wasn't in a civil war. *Hol' up*

[@unflexian]

🎵 _China is whole again_ 🎵 🎵 _Then it broke again_ 🎵

[@sirapple589]

Oh look there’s China aaand it’s broken.

[@vermilionrubin]

I wonder if buddism will reach China before it collapses again.

[@Technodreamer]

Free Hong Kong!

[@devinsiner5489]

China and Civil Wars. They go hand and hand.

[@LiKuidPhantom]

assassin's creed really seems like a gateway drug to history

[@biliminsrlar5752]

0:48 *N i c e*

[@Zadiekun]

Nice

[@baronofplagues]

Nice

[@milkshakespeare2587]

Nice

[@ShapezPuller64]

Nice

[@devinsiner5489]

Nicə

[@caad5258]

I thought "The Prince" was a written tutorial for Crusader Kings 2...

[@artofthepossible7329]

Last I checked incest was not a topic in the book.

[@hyk3830]

Stab first and shout slogan later is very underrated advice.

[@JackRackam]

Blue's enthusiasm for Machiavelli always makes me smile. I have to wonder if there was any cosplay involved in the writing of this video

[@fraincross8644]

Oh, that guy. First heard of this guy from Assassin's Creed lol. The Prince being about Ezio.

[@pancakes4552]

Frain Cross pretty much

[@sirapple589]

Can’t really blame him, it’s Ezio. Who wouldn’t write about him? A loser, that’s who.

[@RenoApostoli]

"I intend to write a book about you one day". "If you do, make it short"

[@louisduarte8763]

@@sirapple589 I wrote a Dos Equis commercial about him. He went to Leonardo da Vinci for his tech support issues. He inspired Niccolo Machiavelli to write "The Prince". He called Suleiman "magnificent" before he was Sultan. He is... the Most Interesting Man in the World.

[@Borderose]

@@louisduarte8763 Minus the Suleiman part, I think all of that was Cesare Borgia in real life.

[@zer0w0lf94]

I was just talking about him with my brother yesterday in relation to Lelouch vi Britannia from Code Geass. We’re currently 10 episodes in.

[@katyl2334]

lelouch is the incarnation of the Prince

[@achintyanaithani889]

A perfect example.

[@IceQueen975]

Y'all got good taste.

[@thel0n3lytramp63]

I Lelouch V Brittania, command you!

[@GiftedContractor]

You are in for a treat! Code Geass is one of the best anime's of all time

[@mackielunkey2205]

Oh hey, it’s that guy from the Assassin’s Creed games.

[@blamehoodohhcanada5860]

Me too.

[@devinsiner5489]

Oh Yes.

[@kingofthings7929]

It’s actually interesting how he’s portrayed there. On the surface, he was ruthless and authoritarian, yet allied with the freedom loving Assassins. The writers of the Ezio Trilogy did their homework.

[@mackielunkey2205]

kingofthings7929 Man, wish they made Robespierre an Heisenbergian Assassin.

[@jasonblalock4429]

@@kingofthings7929 Personally, I thought they made him a bit too ruthless... but the pairing of him and the much more idealistic Da Vinci as Ezio's main friends\advisers did make for good writing.

[@Nightfire613]

Dude was writing under like 6 tiers of “f*** you”s and irony. A legend. Also did somebody say more POPE FIGHTS?

[@cardboardanalysis7283]

YES! Thank you for setting the record straight on Machiavell, reading him and then seeing how most people percieve him is maddening

[@althaearatliffthereligion]

I just wrote a college paper about “The Prince”, it was pretty good.

[@pendlera2959]

The Prince or the paper?

[@althaearatliffthereligion]

Pendlera the paper, the book was amazing.

[@magurocha]

I dont have an "Early" joke but I can say, *finally* after my Mom berated me about playing Assassin's Creed, Machiavelli, Cezare, and everything else got features here! HA! Take that Mom. Yes I'll wash the dishes now.

[@Eshanas]

Politics is messy, bloody, and immoral. Not machs fault he pointed out the obvious.

[@jeanetten.s.8557]

And after his "supposed" death, Niccolo Machiavelli became an immortal sorcerer with an eternal rivalry with fellow immortal sorceress Paranelle Flannel.

[@coltonwilliams4153]

I loved those books in high school.

[@sophiemason8444]

The only stuff I know about Machiavelli was from Brotherhood, and the most 'manipulative' I got from him was that he was just very pragmatic and logic driven, and I know that a lot of the sub-plot stemmed from the rest of the Brotherhood misinterpreting his 'wrong stuff for the right reasons' as traitor due to his jerkish behaviour, and would quite willingly apologise when he was in the wrong.

[@lumps17]

"Born in 1469, *Nice*, ..." Oh my god I died that was super unexpected 😂

[@kanalithviper4744]

Normie: Why does Blue say nice at Machiavelli’s birth Arthur Fleck: You wouldn’t get it

[@CommanderJaneShepard2154]

So sad to see normalfags use the word normie like that

[@RashidMBey]

@@CommanderJaneShepard2154 fffffffuck off.

[@IKnowThatFeelBr0]

@@CommanderJaneShepard2154 using a synonym won't save you. If you are in a hurry to clarify that you are not part of the majority like most, are you really not part of it?

[@CommanderJaneShepard2154]

@@IKnowThatFeelBr0 Psuedointellectual bullshit wont save you I dab on thee good sir

[@higueraft571]

@@CommanderJaneShepard2154 you're.... still using "dab", and thee like you're clever... You sure you arent a normie

[@greekmyths8804]

5:20 THE PAPERCLIP HAS INFILTRATED OSP! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

[@stevenjlovelace]

I see you're writing a KZbin comment...

[@greekmyths8804]

@@stevenjlovelace *screams*

[@themistoclesnelson2163]

Blue. Thank you so much shedding positive light on him. I love the guys since college and even then I received a more negative reception for being a fan.

[@klausoshaunacey8429]

Tbh I’d listen to Blue discuss Machiavelli’s bowel movements because 1) Blue and 2) the man was fascinating in so many ways Edit: Blue, I really think you should do a video on Fredrick of Prussia and his badassness despite seeing his boyfriend get killed in front of him

[@sethheppner7138]

Blue: *Uses Skyrim music while talking about 16th century Italy* Assassin’s Creed Brotherhood: Am I a joke to you?

[@Sketchman911]

I thought the background music was the Florence theme from AC2

[@ripwolfe]

I guess I read the Prince intelligently, b/c I was on board with "most criminally misunderstood" immediately -- that, and I had a decent history teacher or two who taught me how to not only read between the lines, but also to poke around at the wider context surrounding any and all things I read.

[@Vinemaple]

Wait, so _Discourses on Livy_ is basically just 400 more pages of historical analysis like the stuff in _The Prince_ ? Sign me up! I brought the old Bergin translation to a doctor's appointment once, and ended up not wanting to put it down... I'd just finished Finley's _Democracy: Ancient and Modern,_ and just happened to be totally ready for something like _The Prince._

[@erichayes8445]

He's one of the 3 most misunderstood writers in history along with Sun Tzu (guys he wasn't using metaphors for your buisness deals but literally talking about late Zhou dynasty warfare.) And Orwell a socialist as admitted by him, evidenced in Homage to Catalonia, and even in 1984 it says Oceania was set up by the Bourgeoisie to control the Proletariat.

[@thezeitos469]

Me, an intellectual: "Hehe. You cant misunderstand a guy, if you never heared of him in the first place."

[@louisduarte8763]

As a Cracked article once said, Machiavelli was the Stephen Colbert of Renaissance Italy.

[@ActiveAdvocate1]

She says before listening to Greg stop the conversation on The Prince: "See, this is why I don't like Machiavelli. He diverts as far as humanly possible from one of my favourite philosophical works, the "Dao De Jing", in saying that rulers are better off being feared than loved." She says after Greg finishes his explanation: "So...he was screwing with the guy? Or was he just saying that that's ONLY how you should rule when you're under fire from foreign entities?"

[@Archris17]

Desperate times can take many forms, not just external threats. The trick is recognising when they are desperate enough to need a dictator... and finding a modern Cincinatus who will surrender the power when the crisis is passed

[@chedelirio6984]

Basically, "a man's got to do what a man's got to do" -- where people get it wrong is in thinking that he is advocating that therefore this is *always* THE thing to do.

[@sarahgilliss3503]

In Assassin's Creed, Machiavelli was part of the Italian faction of the Brotherhood of Assassins.

[@bookworm3696]

All I can think about is some of his advice mentioned in a manga called "how a realist hero rebuilt the kingdom." (Paraphrased) cruelty is a tool for a ruler to use. The sign of a great one is to only use it once.

[@chokelaugher]

Everybody knows "the prince" is clearly based on ezio auditore

[@xyAKMxy]

Whenever we studied Machiavelli at school (I live in Italy), textbooks *always* highlighted how his work was either or both a "rules for rulers" guidebook or/and a lowkey critique and denouncing of despotism. They even mentioned a short text which had Machiavelli being judged in the afterlife and before he was let into heaven somebody warned everyone that they "saw him put wolf fangs into sheep's mouths", as a metaphorical way to call him a dangerous rabble-rouser trying to diverfe the common people into anarchy.

[@OcarinaSapphr-]

I have an *exquisite* copy of ‘The Prince’- it was one of my bucket-list purchases; it’s a yellow satin hardcover, with metallic embossing- with period artwork & endnotes out the wazoo. It’s a very impressive read- I was trying to read a chapter a day; in this copy there are 26 chapters, plus the introduction & Lorenzo’s dedication, as well as 2 sets of appendices, & a quick chronology & brief run-down on the personalities of the time & a suggested reading list before the index. Weird or not, I actually wanted to read the chapters aloud (which limited where I was reading it, obvs), but life’s gotten in the way in the last couple of months - you’ve reminded me to get back to it.

[@Violetcas97]

THANK YOU, dear GOD I’ve been defending Machiavelli and his work for years and it’s good to see it broken down concisely in an incredibly well made video.

[@floris2971]

i really wish history class focused as much on the renaissance as blue

[@floris2971]

Bongo Kongo im dutch and in our historybook stood renaissance, but i do agree that italy was the core of the rinascimento and that italians should get more credit for what’s basically europe’s golden age

[@hatientacetlen4246]

The description of "the prince" as a way to illustrate the tools of a tyrant reminds me of "yes minister" which sought to make the actions and behaviour of the UK government understandable to the public.

[@smergthedargon8974]

>when your burn is so hot the photons go beyond the visible spectrum and nobody realizes they've been utterly scorched for decades

[@curestarlight3023]

Picturing the ghost of Machiavelli smiling & thinking, "This Blue is a smart one."

[@AceTaxiaGaming]

"Dear Medici: FUCKING LEAVE" had me balling

[@hughfisher9820]

Red, you *have* to start drawing Blue in a toga. That charming extract from Nicoló's letter about appropriate dress for history is exactly how I imagine Blue

[@uria3679]

He was a good friend in Assassin’s Creed 2 and Brotherhood

[@thatoneperson2380]

This is LITERALLY perfect timing I’m doing a project on him in school. 🙏

[@joemason6319]

Then it's the perfect time to read this, too, which is almost the same as this video but goes into a lot more detail: www.exurbe.com/machiavelli-s-p-q-f/

[@julianleverton7045]

This is spooky, I was just reading up on Machiavelli this morning. Shame he ended being so misunderstood by history. Great video as always Blue.

[@kulovicz3152]

Machiavelli saw things in the most realistic way possible.

[@Mr.TofuDeliveryMan]

The united Italy’s first capital was Florence, then it was moved to Rome. Machiavelli would’ve liked that.

[@nothingunderthemask]

Did you know that in Assassin's Creed, the Prince is about the Assassins and templars

[@productivediscord5624]

"Politics have no relation to morals"- the most Woke man in history.

[@RedWizrobe]

*What Everyone Remembers From The Prince:* "And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved." *What He Says Immediately After, But Nobody Remembers:* "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated." TL;DR, make the citizens fear you without being overly cruel.

[@courtneysmith9807]

Holy shit man. I'm a poli sci student, and I've had to read the Prince but with NO historical context given. This makes so much more sense

[@soic9690]

Alright I'm sold, Machiavelli is officially one of my favorite historical figures. I'm definently gonna do some research on my own, he seems fascinating!

[@theaureliasys6362]

From the bottom of my heart: Thank you.

[@MasterKeyblader25]

Petition for the modern perception of Machiavelli to be dubbed the shameful title of Neo Machiavellian

[@howdycrusader355]

So your saying that i should stab my enemies before my dramatic monolougue? Ok Got It

[@chryasor9254]

Ah, that one guy medieval 2 keeps talking about

[@russelldouglas8746]

"Niccolo Machiavelli is the most criminally misunderstood writers in history and I am always mad about it." ME, TOO, BLUE!!! ME, TOO!

[@Spawnofktulu007]

I've literally been thinking about this video since it came out. I finally got myself a copy of The Prince and The Discourses on Livy. It's been 15 years since I was in school and getting together with my old history teacher and starting a book club, these are two books we're reading. Thank you Blue!

[@kanyekubrick5391]

Dude I love Machiavelli so much. I think about the Prince every day and that quote about living through ancestors made me like him even more because I fucking love history.