HMS Caledonia - Guide 383

The Caledonia class, first rate ships of the line of the British Royal Navy, are today's subject.
Read more about the ships here:
www.amazon.co.uk/British-Wars...
www.amazon.co.uk/British-Wars...
www.amazon.co.uk/Ship-Line-De...
www.amazon.co.uk/LAST-SAILING...
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'Legionnaire' by Scott Buckley - released under CC-BY 4.0. www.scottbuckley.com.au

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@silverjohn6037]

Looking at some of the drawings of the ships I noticed the lower gun deck ports were pretty close to the water line. It made me wonder how water tight the ports were when they closed as it looked like waves or even heeling over in a strong wind might leave them vulnerable to flooding.

[@vikkimcdonough6153]

During the January 2023 livestream, as part of your answer to one of my questions, you said that trying to use a cruiser with 32 six-inch guns as an "anti-destroyer machine gun" (a turn of phrase I rather like) would be risky, as it would need to get close enough to the enemy destroyers that they could potentially torpedo it. If 32 six-inch guns couldn't reach out far enough to reliably swat enemy destroyers before they can launch torpedoes, wouldn't the secondary batteries of WWII-era capital ships, with many fewer guns per broadside and usually also smaller in caliber (up to ten guns of 4-to-6-inch caliber being the norm for secondary broadsides), have practically no hope of being useful in the anti-surface role? Doesn't this also make an effective dual-purpose gun an unworkable concept until the immediate postwar era, because the anti-surface role, in order to reliably kill enemy destroyers while they're still well out of torpedo range, requires a gun too large and heavy to be useable as a heavy-AA gun until the breakthroughs in heavy autoloading guns immediately postwar? If battleship construction had continued, would we have seen the return of the heavy 8-to-10-in intermediate battery to take care of destroyers with increasingly-long-ranged torpedoes?

[@rossswenson532]

Acceptance trials: Did any fail so bad that, they were rejected for service. What were the consequences to the designers/builders?

[@steveh7409]

Great videos need more longer ones!! Keep up good work almost 2 500k

[@eitanrosen464]

I would like to know about the circumstances surrounding the sinking of the ship of the line HMS Wesserly. Was the ship of the line targeted by German aircraft due to being a target of opertunity or was this relic of the age of sail targeted to weaken the spirit of the British and if so was it confused with HMS Victory. Also, how many ships of the lines survived in Royal Navy service into the 20th century in some form. Obviously not as combat vessels. Corrected for spelling and grammar.

[@Dave_Sisson]

Hopefully we will get a history of the First Rates built at the same time which included HMVS Nelson, which was sold to the cashed up Colony of Victoria and thus became the only First Rate ever to be owned by a colonial navy.

[@williestyle35]

That does sound interesting!

[@crowznest438]

Those contemporary paintings of ships during the Age of Sail are very beautiful.

[@madzen112]

In Denmark, uniform ship designs were introduced during the Napoleonic wars and caused quite a hazzle with the shipbuilders, who felt that their time honed skills of building ships from experience rather than plans, were being trounched upon.

[@kennethdeanmiller7324]

Yes, but when you build a very large ship sometimes it doesn't sail particularly well. And when you build a very large ship, that is bigger than most but has excellent sailing abilities then you tend to want them to copy that design. And because of the expense of a first rate, if you have a design that you know works very well, it makes more sense to copy that one rather than design a new ship from scratch that may not sail very well & ends up having to be cut down into a 2nd or 3rd rate. Hence the saying "If it ain't broken then don't fix it!" And when you are paying vast amounts of money for these ships, you want them to be right the first time & copying a ship that works well makes a lot of sense cuz it means that those ships should also work well. I'm sure a lot of the shipbuilders wanted to consider there job as an art. And building a similar ship in today's world COULD BE considered an art. But back then those ships were needed for a purpose and copying ships that were best suited to perform that purpose was more important than trying to sail an "artwork" into battle. I think that is where the French and Spanish messed up. A fighting ship is going to take damage, but can mostly be repaired. Sail an artwork into battle and you may get your artwork surrendered to the enemy with a lot of lives lost in the process.

[@genericpersonx333]

Some of that was that the concept of technical packages were still in its infancy, so the plans were often not detailed enough to explain what was needed, forcing the artisans to improvise measures and cuts enough that they wondered why bother with the plans to start with. Really took a generation of new engineering education with more consistent tools and measurement to make the blueprint really adequate for naval construction.

[@throwback19841]

@@genericpersonx333 ^ this, its all about the ability to measure and reproduce components consistently and accurately. To my mind Joseph Whitworth had a more significant impact than Brunel.

[@williestyle35]

Thank you for this insight. Even in the UK "artisans" and craftsmen wanted to work from experience, over the designs and plans from people that had never built anything of consequence. To some degrees that lasted till the 20th century in Continental Europe, for some specialized fields. Now everything is "built to plan", with rare exceptions.

[@kennethdeanmiller7324]

@@williestyle35 Well nowadays, everything is so complicated you have to plan everything out. Just like building a house. You've got to know what you want and draw it out on paper to be able to purchase & assemble all you need to build it. But a house doesn't have to worry about sailing through the ocean. Once they had created a ship that had all the qualities that they wanted and it would sail better than most others of that size then they tended to want it copied. But the thing about it too is that sometimes it was hard to find timber large enough to copy a ship of that size. I imagine it took A LOT OF oak trees to build a Navy the size of the Royal Navy back then. And I imagine some ship builders wanted to build a ship from seasoned wood from timbers nearby & easy to cut & haul rather than to pay for timbers from someone else that cut & let it season. Hence trying to make something from what you already have at hand rather than copy a tried & true method that they know works well. Back in 1990 my stepfather Billy got a small workers comp settlement of $60,000. It wasn't much compared to the damage to his back but he was determined to make the best of it. He bought a 5 acre property in South Carolina for $900 an acre. Spent $8k having a deep well drilled & another $2k for electricity to a temporary pole & light. And my Mom drew the plans and ordered most of what we needed. And Billy & I built a house there with very little left over. And the only thing left unfinished was a bit of drywall. It had a 16' x 32' basement & footings x 1.5 the size of the basement. He laid the block while I mixed the mortar in a bathtub and carried him the cinder blocks. They had the basement dug out and a slab laid before I went up there from Atlanta. After he did the basement we had the footings poured and laid the block to make it even with the basement. Then it didn't take long to do the floor & frame it. We needed 4 people to get the roof started cuz you gotta have someone on each corner to be able to do the middle beam that you attach the ceiling joyces to. To help save on wood and to have extra head room we had the living room go from 8' to 14' & it gave him extra space to hang his deer head trophies and large fish trophies. He had 3 deer heads. 2x 8 pointers & a ten pointer. But one of the 8 pointers was as big or bigger than the 10 point. But all 3 were beautiful typical style racks. Oh, that reminds me. After they left for South Carolina I was still staying near Atlanta working. And I noticed 2 mornings in a row a buck came up to the back of the trailer just pawing the ground & blowing real loud. I was like wtf is up with this deer? I got a good look at him and he was at least a big 8 point. And I had a double barrel 12 guage shotgun right there too. But I was like "Damn, I gotta go to work I don't have enough time to even field dress this deer." Which if you don't then it's dangerous to eat if you don't gut it within about 3 hours. But after I got to work I called Billy & told him about it. I had never killed a deer & had the perfect chance but I couldn't do it. It didn't feel right. At the time we had a black Labrador Retriever named Chevis. And Billly said "No, you can't shoot THAT deer. He's looking for Chevis. Every morning he comes up pawing the ground and blowing wanting Chevis to come out & play! So I get up & let Chevis out & they go running together." I of course after LMAO was VERY GLAD and I have still have never killed a deer. OMG, I helped Billy carry numerous deer outta the woods. Luckily he got a 4 wheeler & could manage it himself after that. For some stupid reason South Carolina brought in some coyotes to the area. And so they ended up having coyotes running around causing a lot of trouble. Why they wanted to "re-introduce" coyotes to the area was cause they weren't around to know what a pain in the ass coyotes were & that was why they all got killed off. Duh. They didn't kill them for the fun of it. Imagine a pack of hungry wolves. Now imagine that you let your dog out to go pee and all of a sudden your dog is getting eaten by a pack of wolves. Same thing but coyotes are just a tad smaller. Now imagine that was your 5 year old daughter getting eaten instead of your dog. All of sudden nature ain't so friendly anymore. There are reasons humans kill other predators. Cuz our children, pets, chickens & our live stock are vulnerable. Anybody hear about the old lady & or little kids that got eaten by an alligator? The kid that was eaten was on Disney property. I think the parents set that one up! "Damn, we got too many kids! I know how we can get rid of the one we don't like & get rich in the process." Disney & alligators. Now who saw that coming? OK let's go down by the creek and see the new alligator ride.

[@peterbrezniak7224]

General comment...While I don't ALWAYS have a specific interest in everything you present- the overall care and quality is undeniable. Please accept my sincere thanks and appreciation for Improving my quality of life. 😊

[@squirepraggerstope3591]

Seconded!

[@williestyle35]

Same. I wonder how many of us come here just to hear Drachinifel talk naval matters, regardless if the topic is of direct interest?

[@peterbrezniak7224]

@@williestyle35 I would listen to Drach recite the Magna Carta ...

[@williestyle35]

@@peterbrezniak7224 same actually. Though I have a soft spot for the Magna Carta, after seeing a "copy" of it that was sent out on an educational tour of the world while I was in elementary school.

[@AptWaffleMantis2278]

@6.30, gonna be honest dreadnought is a interesting choice of name for a hospital ship

[@CastleBravo023]

Well, it literally means “fear not”. So it’s actually PERFECT.

[@scottgiles7546]

Better than the "No-Hoper" for you Black Adder fans,

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

@@scottgiles7546 - Baldrick !

[@caelestigladii]

6:30

[@AptWaffleMantis2278]

These all good points, I guess i am used to hearing it used for the dreadnought and other more direct combat units

[@rickgoetter6340]

It amazes me that the longevity of some of these ships was 50 years or more. Thanks, Drac!

[@michaelbeale559]

Because they were made of wood? Or some other reason?

[@williestyle35]

The _HMS Mary Rose_ lasted a bit longer, but that included refits.

[@GearGuardianGaming]

​@@michaelbeale559my guess is because of a combination of price, ease of repair, keeping with the times, and efficiency

[@kenashimame]

Grandpa BUFF smiles knowingly

[@SteamCrane]

They may have turned into ships of Theseus, making the upgrades a minor part of the "repairs".

[@brianpate7107]

Arson - need to add that to the list of possible ship fates. Thought I had the complete set by now. 🙂

[@The_ZeroLine]

I use Drach’s intro to scare away home intruders. Thanks, Drach! You do so much more than just entertaining and educating us!

[@riverraven7359]

Very photogenic ships, or at least the oil painting looks great

[@dorn0531]

Paintogenic?

[@AsbestosMuffins]

really sucks when you hear of a tall ship like that making it to almost 1920, it almost made it to where we'd have preserved it

[@gbcb8853]

1. Caledonia was Admiral Pellew's flagship. 2. The ship returned to medical service briefly during the smallpox epidemic in 1871. 3. The Dreadnought medical service still exists, land based at St Thomas' Hospital London.

[@captaincharlemagne]

Been waiting for this video for while now since I first heard of them being based off Victory

[@MGMan-ce7sf]

It always strikes me as something tragic that none of these ships have survived. I suppose it's just the way of things, but such a shame that we've lost so much history.

[@FireFox_60]

It wasn't history to them.

[@skysamurai4649]

The last picture looks so weird. The ship is half out of the water and windows are cut out below the waterline 🤨

[@rorythomas9469]

Conversion to a hulk removed the ballast, masts, guns and other heavy objects, so they would sit much higher in the water. More windows added to let in light and air.

[@999theeagle]

Mudflood?😉

[@LavaFrog12]

​@@999theeagle No

[@davidmcintyre8145]

What is amazing here is that the guns of the RN specifically the 24lb model and indeed the 18 lb model were so well engineered that they could be bored out to operate as lighter charge 32lb guns

[@JamesGibson-iz9el]

How about reviewing the Great Lake squadrons from the War of 1812?

[@tullyontherocks]

Good morning Drac!

[@stevenseibel9216]

love that class

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks Drach

[@VonChoker]

I love hearing about all the 19th century ships - fascinating the whole transition into steam and Iron

[@NigelDeForrest-Pearce-cv6ek]

Fascinating!!!

[@dwgray9000]

Excellent news!

[@jasonz7788]

Thanks drachif

[@LinusNapoleonicShipyard]

Did this one as a turner modell in 1/700 scale. A very nice design.

[@williamgreen7415]

Thanks!

[@petegeen9669]

Your the best..and no further comment needed!

[@davidsachs4883]

Was seasoned wood for first rate warships routinely seasoned for a full decade? How long was the wood seasoned for third rates and frigates?

[@garyjordan3914]

I've got one for you to review , how about the USCGC Bibb WHEC 31 . For something different she was commissioned in 1936 and retired in the early 80s .

[@teambridgebsc691]

Enjoyed the short form, thank you. Gorgeous artwork, atmosphere and history. The last of these, lived to 1918 to perish by arson, what a shame, so close in history can almost still smell her. Vandals or insurance fraud?

[@ricardokowalski1579]

Yes👍

[@Tomyironmane]

"Lost to arson." .... this phrase just... kinda makes me unreasoningly mad.

[@tomwarner2468]

These ships look like they'd be top heavy !

[@zoranocokoljic8927]

@0:35 Is that a drawing of a ship in reserve/ordinance. Because she has windows covering gun ports, a nice promenade at the bow (ideal for 5 O'clock tea) and a lot of rigging seems missing. But she still has her masts which would probably been taken off if she was decomissioned.

[@rorythomas9469]

Fairly sure that’s a HMS Victory as she was in the Victorian era, as a sort of museum.

[@bjturon]

Building an HMS Ville de Paris is just bizarre, goes beyond the usual trolling...

[@simonolsen9995]

How much old growth forest went into each of these? How long could they have kept building them if iron ships hadn't come along. Surely, they would have run out of trees?

[@gattingbowledwarne]

Isn’t there a big model of this ship in the nation maritime museum in Greenwich? It’s been a long time since I was there. Or is it if a130 gun ship that wasn’t built?

[@PeterMuskrat6968]

It’s so wacky to me that there were Wooden hulled ships still at least partially in service in the late 1870’s up until 1900. So… weird.

[@nmccw3245]

“Kept up with all that?” 🤯

[@bgw33]

🎉

[@bigsarge2085]

✌

[@SingMineshaftGapInAFlatMinor]

How long did timber need to season before being used for shipbuilding, and did any navies get desperate enough to build ships with unseasoned wood?

[@duwop544]

Just an FYI, Galveston has released a video with your full name in the title,

[@nigeldawson5960]

When I ship like this was “broken up.” Were the timbers reused? And for what purpose? Thank you.

[@davidbrennan660]

At some stage Drach will be put into Ordinary…… what will the Country do then ?

[@annadalassena5460]

he is still seasoning

[@dukenukem5768]

1:35 : Ville de Paris is a strange choice of name for a British ship.

[@darrellsmith4204]

Gotta admit, had to look up "razeed"..

[@jeffreypierson2064]

Ditto. How much did they remove from the top of the ships?

[@augustosolari7721]

Spain had two classes, designed I think by Landa. The Meregildos and the Nepomucenos. France had the Redoutables and the Oceans.

[@keithmoore5306]

who torched Watterloo crew or civilian> and if civilian English of a frenchy?

[@zoranocokoljic8927]

In 1918 it would probably have been a Jerry, or possibly a Paddy, though I understasnd why a Froggie might be tempted.

[@keithmoore5306]

@@zoranocokoljic8927 even in 1918 one that old i seriously doubt a German would bother same for paddy only thing they cared about was tossing out the black and tans torching her wouldn't effect the occupation troops! personally i put it on a disgruntled crewman or the navy itself just wanting rid of one that old!

[@Goatcha_M]

Dreadnought is an odd name for a Hospital ship.

[@merlinwizard1000]

35th, 13 April 2024

[@Clipgatherer]

HMS _Ville de Paris._ A rather unusual name for a new British warship at the time of the Napoleonic wars. 😕

[@crazypetec-130fe7]

She was named for a French prize ship that served the RN long and well.

[@scottgiles7546]

Isn't Caledonia an old jazz/blues song?

[@Kevin_Kennelly]

Wasn't it Cmdr McHale's base?

[@Kumimono]

I'm sorry, HMS Boing?

[@Dave_Sisson]

Boing is the sound that French cannon balls made when they bounced off the ships walls of oak.

[@notshapedforsportivetricks2912]

HMS Boyne, I heard.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Not borrowed from the French

[@smcilia]

It is always nuts how these ships survived some into living memory even... Then they got sunk or sold for scraps. The Americans scrap buildings the British scrap ancient ships of war 😅

[@ianatkinson5509]

Darn, more history lost to arson? Did they catch the culprits?

[@TheCaptainbeefylog]

I love and hate these 'guides' lol. You just get to know a ship and her story (love) and she gets sent to the breakers (hate). LMAO at my romanticism.

[@augustosolari7721]

Yet the British had more first rates at Trafalgar than the Combined Fleet

[@annadalassena5460]

no, 3 versus 4, but only Spanish ones in the combined fleet.

[@aidanfarnan4683]

Who the heck sets fire to an historic ship at harbour? Bloody vandals

[@claytonis1]

Drach.... did you use AI on this video?

[@Drachinifel]

No, why?

[@comrade_commissar3794]

AI where? Timestamp the parts that you think are AI.

[@phluphie]

A furry ship? That’s either adorable or kinda kinky.

[@smplyizzy]

It’s amazing how far the Royal Navy has declined. Crazy

[@danielspencer5816]

Can you shorten your intro? 😊

[@dannyhonn973]

Sounds like a waste of good wood and tax payer dollars.

[@chrissouthgate4554]

Only in the same way that US Air Forces SAC or the Navies Boomers. The Deterrence of their age, also used in the Crimea.

[@cesarsalas8506]

The issue with the later designs of ships of the line is that steam propulsion generalized soon after, making them not quite as useful as first thought.

[@ulfosterberg9116]

The tax payers pounds, old chap. Pounds.

[@forcea1454]

​​@@cesarsalas8506If anything the invention of steam made them more useful, even if becalmed they could be towed into battle by a paddle steamer, and they had considerably more firepower than a paddle Frigates, an with the round bows and sterns introduced by Robert Seppings were capable of effective all-round fire. These ships were also later converted into steam screw ships of the line. If anything makes the ship of the line obsolete, it's the Paixhans Gun.