"HOBBY TOURISTS" Don't Exist in Wargaming

You may have heard someone called a 'hobby tourist' - you may have been called one yourself. The truth is: hobby tourists don't really exist.
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[@sternencolonel7328]

"The only thing they listen to is sales" well that did work out well for the StarWars Brand, didnt it ?

[@tubetorpedo]

I think Disney in general with huge chunk of their recent products. Seems Marvel has not been going that strong lately either.

[@margaretwood152]

2:11 3:45 Don't speak about things if you have No *Idea* about the Subject or it's current iterations & developments. It makes you look rather...... _∂umß._ Yeah, Buh BYE ( -Subscribe- )

[@an0nycat]

*The term HOBBY LOCUST is better than HOBBY TOURISTS, by the way.* 😅😅

[@Smilomaniac]

Huh, good one.

[@dragontail2k6]

Hobby Parasites

[@kylebeachy9252]

Hobby colonisers

[@thehat4244]

Hobby squatters.

[@sharzinlalebazri5673]

I personally go with colonizers.

[@CantusTropus]

The fun thing is, if you have the extension that re-enables dislikes on KZbin, you can see that this video is about 51% dislikes...

[@DemonicAkumi]

Yup. 2900/2907 (I'm that 2907).

[@weirdo3116]

i already had that and it wasn't this bad before. did someone else cover this video? or was it linked somewhere else?

[@-JustHuman-]

@@DemonicAkumi Now 2.9K to 3K+

[@ScottRKrol]

Wow, that seems like it should be a much higher percentage.

[@frostmagemarii]

@@weirdo3116 Dunno. Maybe someone shared it, or tried to use it as a gotcha moment and it blew up on them.

[@norbertfistinger1466]

The whole topic went straight over your head mate...

[@afuzzycreature8387]

No, he just doesn't like being called out

[@RabyGaming-l1y]

This is called cope, it's what the likes of him do when reality hits them in the face. It's just intellectual dishonesty

[@ThommyofThenn]

What does it mean?? Why is it not correct in your opinion?

[@maxbrooks5468]

I would genuinely be embarrassed to admit I think the woke agenda is a real thing that exists.

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@maxbrooks5468 people who try using that 'arguement' are just proving themselves very poorly educated in history. None of the "soy degeneracy" they whine about today are new things suddenly added into a culture.

[@HacksawsHobbyBunker]

I think there is a certain irony in calling out those who use the term "Hobby Tourist" by declaring them to be "Conspiracy Theorist" - the original pejorative term used to shut down anyone whose argument you disagree with. Just sayin'.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

But then admitting that they are correct and that it is a good thing is always funny.

[@03dashk64]

Yeah, two wrongs don’t make a right. Both terms are used pejoratively. But…the sentence after the one you’re quoting is more of the crux of the video.

[@HacksawsHobbyBunker]

@@03dashk64 I went back and reviewed. I suspect like all things that start to gain popularity (for good or ill) the meaning that some use is different than others. For some this may be dead on. For others that is not even close to what is being alleged. It is left as an exercise to the reader/viewer to decide which is which depending on the specific case.

[@AJratcliffe]

If thier theory is that there's a group of elites with a conspiracy to influence art / fandoms to be woke, then like it or not, they're a conspiracy theorist.

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

@@HacksawsHobbyBunkeryes but.. the major trend in the moment is the issue of ideological takeover and culture war subversion and I think it is more than likely that he is directly reacting to the increase in the term do to the culture war. Especially when the entire distillation of his argument hangs on one single axiom “the culture war isn’t real and nobody is trying to damage people’s hobby for reasons beyond sales” Which is pathetic given the entire ESG and DEI initiatives are almost always adopted due to an influx of cash not from fans or sales but from political activist groups. I assumed he was ill informed but someone informed this dude was real big into BLM before on his live streams and was pushing that I assumed until it was revealed to be run by four rich communists who stole all of the money to buy houses and luxuries I assume. Though given his attitude and lack of admitting that the culture war does not exist in his eyes I would imagine he would still feel compelled to say he supports BLM even after it was revealed to be a grift perpetrated by four leftist women who stole the entire fortune which should have gone to rebuilding the communities the movement burnt down.

[@redhairjoe1]

is this one of those "It doesnt exist" moments where someone says "Its not happening", gets shown its happening and then says "ok, it happens but its not a problem"? Because that's what this sounds like.

[@hillehai]

Yeah, he basically said as much in the video. Funny how it always happens that way.

[@TabletopTurtle]

We are in the "it's not happening" stage right now. But we'll eventually move to the "it's happening but it's rare" stage soon enough. I'm excited to eventually move to the "but it's a good thing!" stage!

[@brokenhalo2001]

@@TabletopTurtle my favourite part is when we get the "its all made up anyway and not real so why do you care"

[@lilchinesekidchen]

@@redhairjoe1 “hobby tourists” don’t exist because there’s no such thing as being a “tourist” vs being a “native” in a fictional IP based hobby. no one is being displace or marginalized in if a fictional world changes, because… it’s…not…real. what’s actually happening is there are people who have spent more time in a hobby and people who have spent less time with it. and for some reason, a small segment of the long time hobbyists feel like their experience with the hobby should be the only experience that is prioritized. and they start intensively gatekeeping a fictional world. and any critique or criticism, or accommodating change is portrayed as an “invasion” of their “native territory”.

[@lilchinesekidchen]

@@brokenhalo2001 the real question is, why does any change or critique of your hobby interest offend you so much. it’s not like your actually being displaced from the hobby. look at DnD edition 4.0. it was a streamlined version of the combat system to appeal to a wider audience. My friends and I didn’t really like it, but guess what… we just continued playing 3.5. And I picked up 4.0 so i could introduce new friends to the game. The change didn’t “push us out” of the hobby to make way for “tourist”. we weren’t “marginalized” just becuase it was appealing to a wider audience. being a fictional world means there is near infinite room for expansion and accommodation. and updates to a game system are way more distruptive than changes in the universe lore. If a lore change is causing you to abandon the game, then that really is a you problem,

[@dr.squirrels600]

While I’ve pretty much never heard the term “tourist” used in a good faith argument I can at least understand the sentiment. If someone is brand new to an area, them immediately criticizing everything or demanding changes without taking any time to understand the area and community is a good way to ruffle feathers.

[@Smilomaniac]

Do you think he made a good faith argument when he showed a video of a person in a literal tinfoil hat and called people using the term conspiracy theorists?

[@kudosbudo]

Literally doesn't happen. If anything it comes from gronards like me who've been around it long enough and she mehow kept up with changing positions. Back in the 90 I used gay as a slur like a bellend. Then I grew the fuck up. We get old and realise there's a lot of shit in our hobby we just don't like. So we start questioning the status quo warriors. I honestly don't get the push back I get from the younger folk who want things to be well... Shit.

[@tomtheconqerur]

"Hobby tourists are just a conspiracy!" *Proceed to say things that validate the conspiracy*

[@ryanglessner8626]

In my opinion, I would call someone a "Hobby Tourist" if they don't hobby or support the hobby but want to inject their "values" into the industry/hobby space.

[@WeOnlyEatSoup]

Hobby tourists may not be the term I would use at first, but they definitely exist! People love to attempt to ruin the things you love with their politics and agendas having never even stepped foot into the hobby space. You can't deny reality. The demand for female space Marines comes to mind.

[@lovebunny2652]

@@WeOnlyEatSoup If all the demand comes from people who never stepped foot in the hobby space then why do people kitbash them? Theres also the book/game/lore only fans so calling the ones who go trough the effort of doing fanart or hell, even cosplays cuz those armors sure aint easy to make "tourists" is quite the stretch. The thing is 40k isnt an exclusive club. And its texts arent written just for yoou. Its the most mainstream wargaming setting, and people will enjoy it their own way no matter what you do or how entitled you feel just because you might have been a fan longer. And GW knows and encourages it, btw. When it comes to mini painting, lore is just a suggestion lmao. You've been duped into thinking people come with the sole intent of ruining things for you, but people can in fact enjoy the same thing in multiple ways for any ammount of time and have different opinions on it. Specially an IP as big as 40k.

[@CantusTropus]

@@lovebunny2652 Kitbashing is something people do of their own free will. There is no large-scale demand for FSM except by Hobby Tourists.

[@braydoxastora5584]

@@lovebunny2652 kitbashing/fan fiction has always been a thing. people can easily seperate the two. as well as those with a porn addiction

[@lovebunny2652]

@@CantusTropus What evidence is there of this? I mean, usually if people are talking about something theyd like to see in a setting, its because theyre fans that do know the lore and still think itd be an improvement. I mean, everybody already knows why a SM cant be a girl. Doesnt mean people wont think it'd be cool regardless. I for one would love to see Loyalist Beastmen in the Guard. And all i have on the canonicity of that is a line in Darktide, so... Not much.

[@lovebunny2652]

@@braydoxastora5584 Yes, things made by fans, and fans engage with the hobby one way or another. And wtf does porn addiction have to do with anything? Are the girls who cosplay marines doing so because theyre porn addicted?

[@DeusMachina71]

I first started playing D&D in 1980, first played WFB with 3rd edition, Rogue Trader veteran of 1987-8, never stopped following the hobby. I'm what you call a Hobby historian at this point 😂 Though admittedly I'm not a fan of any of the current GW games except for Necromunda, everything else is OldHammer or something else at this point because the mystique, humor and dankness of the Warhammer settings has been watered down on GWs quest for the magical casual customer base that drives their profits these days

[@squigburger]

It is the blind willingness to not try to understand others point of view that is interesting in this video. To say it "doesn't exist" shows a high level of ignorance, gas Lighting almost. it is a real thing. People will flock to "popular" franchises and then try to change them to fit their sensibilities rather than let the hobby give them something. It happens all the time.

[@NotTheStinkyCheese]

And? People like different things and the hobby will evolve. You should have been there when they tried adding magic to the chain mail rules because the guys wanted to play the battles from lord of the rings... They're is no true Scottsman in this hobby.

[@michaelfranciotti3900]

What gas lighting? There has always been female custodes!

[@ComicGladiator]

Hobbies aren't evolving, they're being twisted. If someone gets into baseball, but wants to remove the bats and balls, and flood the field with water, suddenly you're a swimming club. Then the baseball people have nowhere to play.

[@UltraNerdyGamer]

You’re taking the term “tourist” too literally here. The pejorative term “hobby tourist” comes from the pejorative use of tourist, not the actual definition. To locals, tourists are often loud, obnoxious, rude, and lack a deeper understanding or investment of wherever they’re visiting. Mostly because they don’t live there. It’s just a fun place to be for a week or so. Even in places where tourism is a big part of the economy, locals will have a mixed relationship with tourists.

[@ChromaSoul]

Perfect definition. I'd also add the fact that the tourist is also vouching for their politics during their time there. Some others are a bit confused too, I think your definition could help.

[@UltraNerdyGamer]

Yes, the current type of person with which the term 'hobby tourist' is directed is typically politically involved. I'm keeping the definition a bit looser for flexibility. But yeah, the pejorative 'tourist' is in the country they're visiting for a different reason than the citizen has for living there. As a result, the two have very different opinions about the country itself. If the tourist was permitted control over the country, they would turn the whole thing into the facade they spent their time in on their vacation. The country would then cease to be what it was. It would become a soulless hollow shell of itself.

[@Smilomaniac]

The other one is that people treat it as popular entertainment, dipping their toes without any dedication or interest in learning and moving on as soon as there’s another fad, but then also maintaining that ‘they were always a fan’ because they know a few memes and some trivia, parroting talking points that others have brought up for things like FSM.

[@NotTheStinkyCheese]

Lol still angry because gw added boob armour? Also the space nuns would like to have a word 😂

[@UltraNerdyGamer]

I really don't even know what this comment is trying to say but sure man, whatever.

[@NewbieDice]

"Games workshop don't listen to the opinions of paying customers" 😂 got me!

[@LiliaArmoury]

it's very true

[@r31n0ut]

It is basically true too. Of course they do pay some attention to what their customer base wants, but they are FAR more focused on FUTURE customers than on current ones. Managers get evaluated based on how many intro games they do and how many 'core sets' they sell, so basically 'how many people did you onboard into the hobby'. This is because a) people who are new still need to buy all their models, paints, dice, brushes, tools, etc, and b) the people who are already on board don't really need much help, they'll buy the occasional box and eventually filter out of the hobby. Even worse (from the perspective of veteran hobbyists), the advice store managers get to grow their store is to 'kick out the veterans'. Ideally they'll come in, have a chat, boy a box of models and some paints and then fuck off home, or, even better, order everything online. The store manager should spend their time and effort on new hobbyists. Whether this is a good attitude I'll leave to your judgement, but it DOES seem to work, from the perspective of increasing sales volume.

[@frostmagemarii]

@@r31n0ut Which is why the tourist (the actual definition of gaming tourist, not what TTM sells it to be) is dangerous to the hobby. The tourist is the potential customer that simply needs to be catered to slightly to get them to buy into the hobby. Only, the tourist does not want to join the hobby. They want to visit its space and demand changes, but when it comes time to pay into the hobby they leave.

[@DogmeatDied989]

I found out I’m not allowed to take my Thermite drill anymore. How are Iron Warriors going to break sieges without a seige drill?

[@liberalhyena9760]

I read an article about GW some years ago in a mainstream magazine or newspaper in which a store manager essentially said that they concentrate on younger (potential) customers because by the time they’re in their mid-teens most will have found a girlfriend and left the hobby behind. Perhaps he was too polite, or at any rate diplomatic, to say that many of the relatively small proportion who remain do so because they lack either the social skills or other attributes to find a girlfriend. Or maybe I’m just bitter.

[@DanSummers-i8r]

I agree with the fundamentals of the discussion, but I have to disagree with the position the large corporations are solely motivated by sales and don't listen to outside "voices". The positions/consequences for large corporations such as Anheuser-Busch, Tractor Supply Company, John Deere, and Disney does indicate that corporations are not immune from making decisions based upon their perception of societal trends

[@shinkiro403]

Well, societal trends bring money, it's rather a matter of whether the corpo prefers to stay in a safe niche or wants to expand with a possible risk (depending on the company's field). So basically there are corpos that aren't *extensively* affected by potential (as in not yet) customers, but they are admittedly not that many

[@tubetorpedo]

​@@shinkiro403 _"Well, societal trends bring money"_ They can but how has that e.g. worked for Disney? Thousands of fired personnel last years, numerous cancelled projects and how is e.g. SW toy sales going which has always been big part of the revenue making?

[@shinkiro403]

@@tubetorpedo ofc it's also a matter of how a corpo handles such expansion even in the long run, and Disney not seldom fails projects but they are in a position to not need to care as much as others

[@leonelegender]

​@@shinkiro403 didnt that disprove that 'societal trends bring money' position tho? Certain trends are after all just perceived, pushed by people never interested in the IPs they are trying to change

[@shinkiro403]

@@leonelegender the fact that it's more or less chance-based (and still to a point: yes, nobody can read others' mind, but there are ways to fairly accurately gauge the popularity of something, even within subgroups) doesn't mean it's false, on the contrary it's much harder to quantify how many of those who complain about something aren't part of the audience of the target of the critique: just because a such critique can be found outside the field of reference doesn't mean all, or even just most, people complaining are not from its audience; actually, in this case specifically, I know of lots of people, you do too prolly, that are in the hobby, whether for only lore, gaming or both, that are critical (in my view most the time constructively, but that's an aside) of these issues, and outsider activists of whatever idea almost don't even acknowledge the existence of WH. Think about it: even when it's about videogames, which are one of the most widereaching markets globaly to the point that *all* know they exist, how many people that agree with whatever latest "videogames make people violent" tirade there is are actually people that pass their days saying that in our spaces? The almost totality of people that'd say that just drop a comment on Facebook agreeing with the babbling and erase the memory the same day until the new nontroversy some year later. That's why I believe especially in WH, as it's still very niche as a passtime despite its recent surge, the magnitute of external critiques is hugely overperceived

[@artfrombelow]

I always figured the word tourist referred not to how long youve been in the hobby but the way yoi act and revere the setting. Like an actual tourist that litters on landmarks and has no regard for the place. 'Tourist' is probably a bad word for it but it just stuck.

[@frostmagemarii]

That is what a hobby/gaming/etc tourist is. TTM is making his own definition that doesn't line up with the actual one to argue against it.

[@Underworlddream]

I recalled somtime back that some "tourist" where basically complaining about Bolt Action because you can play as the German, attacked the player based as toxic, then sayed how the game would be better and be more popular if they didn't have that option. They don't get that historical wargamer basically love to reneact old battle and are super into historical accuracy. Trying to get them to removed a major enemy faction was crazy. Warlord games actually came out and said If they did that they would have to remove every historical model they make for every terrible stuff they did in history. I saw another historical model company got shit on for making Civil War miniture and called racist for it.

[@ringwraith1040]

It is. This clown is just creating a straw man and fighting it

[@lovebunny2652]

Someone new saying something cringe is one thing, and even that doesnt take away from the fact that said person is just a begginer, maybe they really dont stick around and dont become a hardcore fan but thats fine, its not ruining anything, and these people are much rarer than others will make you believe, but people who use the term have just been into calling whoever has a differnet opinion on a setting/system a tourist regardless of how long theyve been into whatever theyre into and there is really no clear definition, and it got to the point a narrative was constructed around people supposedly coming for ur hobbies with the sole intent to change them. Thats the conspiracy bs and theres actual grifters feeding from it. You say theyre called tourists based on the way they "revere" the setting. They shoudnt. The settings lore is not sacred text, and whatever it is, it probably has and will change a lot over the years, and people will have massively different opinions on what should/should not be changed, big or small, regarding lore or mechanics, *regardless* of how long theyve been a fan or how much theyve invested into it. Thats the most important thing peopel should consider. And it doesnt make anyone less part of the hobby, specially when it comes to 40k as its the setting these discussions tend to focus on the most, but it is massive, mainstream (dont kid urself its been pretty mainstream for a while, specially for a wargaming ip), and theres too many fans out there to form a true consensus (remember kids, ur online club does not reflect the true opinions of the majority of fans, and it never will). Thats why gatekeeping isnt a thing. Harassment campaigns unfortunately are, and theres been a few targets on twt lately, but i havent seen even 5 people be driven out of the hobby fhe same year, and for every individual gatekeepers manage to abuse out of the hobby theres a million others with the same opinions that you just cant keep from being into whatever you like, because theres no real gate u can keep people from entering. New fans will come from everywhere, from all backgrounds and all sorts of opinions. And more importantly, noone has the power to change anything besides the company itself. Any effort and time spent into keeping "tourists" out of the hobby would be better spent enjoying the hobby itself the way you want it with ur buddies as others do with theirs, but it seems online there has been a weird fenomenon where gatekeeping is the hobby itself. Its just healthier to see that whatever ur into is subject to change, massive changes even, every new edition and that not you nor noone else has control over it, so if u wanna complain u can at least just blame the company itself other than these supposed "others", the "tourists" who ruined ur hobby. Theyre just people doing their own thing, theyre not at fault if things went a way you didnt like and everyones allowed to enjoy any hobby as they see fit.

[@artfrombelow]

@@lovebunny2652 I aint reading all that. Im happy for you tho. Or sorry that happened.

[@Dennis3113]

Sorry but i have a different opinion on that. An ill informed person who doesn't know the lore or the world should not complain and dictate how the faction i have grown to like is supposed to be when he or she just opened the damn book. Calling these people out and antagonizing them is effectively a healthy immune response.

[@lovebunny2652]

@@Dennis3113 The problem is the "ill informed people" are just "the fans that have different opinions than i do". I bet you can name a few genuine changes youd like to see, big or small, and people will call you a tourist over it, no matter how much time and money you invested in this hobby or how much you actually read on lore

[@dfwdweghom8902]

The difference is if he calls for those changes or simply prefers those changes. ​@@lovebunny2652

[@DizzyDisco93]

​@@lovebunny2652tourist detected.

[@lovebunny2652]

@@DizzyDisco93 go on, what makes me one?

[@Dennis3113]

@@lovebunny2652 a good fantasy or scifi universe has to be as logical and coherent and plausible as it can get. Thats the foundation for an immersive Story. And sorry to tell you but women as Custodes are more laughable then woman in the secret service, which you can see for your own two eyes just rewatch the Trump rally where he nearly got shot and watch just the female agents.

[@Eddy_Grimm]

"Tourist" is a term for one who goes somewhere (or in this case takes a hobby) and demands that everything should be done their way with no respect for the natives (or true fans.).

[@IncognitoActivado]

Gatecrasher is more accurate.

[@maxxon99]

I’ve been in a number of fringe hobbies… some of which later grew to be mainstream. In _every_ case, the hobby community has been extremely welcoming to new people who love the same things they do. But anyone’s who’s been at this as long as I have knows about the new guy who has this great idea… …that a new guy suggests every couple of years… …and that has been tried a few times… …and it never works… Calling someone a tourist is impolite, but then again shooting down the same stupid idea again and again is tiresome, I get that. Serious question: what should you call people who say Space Wolves should stop wearing furs and pelts to prevent real life animal cruelty? This is a real thing in case you weren’t aware. Some people go to a Corvette fan meeting to tell Fords are way better. Maybe they genuinely believe that, maybe the just do it to rile up people, I don’t know. But I do know they exist.

[@tabletopminions]

What would I call a person who thinks Space Wolves shouldn’t wear fur? A person with an opinion. A person with head canon. A person you can choose to listen to or not listen to. You’re not forced to play their way. That’s the great thing about wargames: you can play YOUR way and other people can play their way. Thanks for watching!

[@attilamarics3374]

@@tabletopminions So you epxlained why what hobby tourists do is wrong. If they can have a head canon why are they forcing their stuff into the game?

[@dannyboy5008]

​@@tabletopminions all well and good until that "person with an opinion" starts weaponizing morality against others and tries to get GW to make canonical changes to suit his needs. Thanks for replying!

[@htpkey]

​@@dannyboy5008 Are these boogeymen with us in the room? Are they also made of straws?

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

​@@htpkey Look it up, PETA was actually trying to pressure GW to remove fur from the Space Wolves.

[@michaelthebarbarian5527]

Sorry guys, it’s me.. I requested the price hike. I’m sorry 😢. Don’t know what I was thinking

[@Jez-Hunt]

@@michaelthebarbarian5527 we all already knew and we're very disappointed in you. Again.

[@samthompson2980]

😂😂

[@ug1280]

😂

[@Oreo_cakester]

You little rascal 😂😂😂

[@pathogenoxide6917]

Well, you made it easier for me to justify me getting into Battletech. I could buy one entire lance AND some paint with the money I'm saving now!

[@bewawolf19]

"Tourists are a conspiracy theory" Also "Here is my strawman of what the other people mean to prove it is a conspiracy theory. it doesn't matter I didn't present any of their arguements in good faith, as my strawman is what I care about." Video was entirely a waste of time. If you can't comprehend opposing views so rely strawmanning instead of steelmanning to come to the conclusion of "The phenomenon that thousands of people complain about clearly just doesn't exist", you don't have the mental maturity to handle topics like this. One can't even bother arguing against your points as all of your arguements are against positions which people don't even hold.

[@bewawolf19]

Actually I will illustrate how you are not putting the necessary effort into your arguments by tackling one of your points: That of the claim that corporations only care about earning money (You did word it differently but your wording completely neglects things such as investment money exists, so this other wording is a stronger argument. This is called steelmanning by the by). Such a statement forgets that corporations are made up by individuals who will influence the corporation's actions for goals that don't have to align with the hypothetical corporate goal of "Earn more profit". Easiest example. If you are a cashier at McDonalds, is your goal to ensure the highest level of profit for McDonalds, or is it to do what will give you the most money for the least effort? Obviously the employees who try to earn the most money for the least effort is inherently opposing the goal of an hypothetically solely profit-concerned company (Which will want their employees to put in high effort for low wages). You can then create pretty much endless examples with that little thought experiment. If you are in HR and you are extremely woke and you believe it is both morally good and morally necessary for your opinions to be entrenched in every product and every job, you are then explicitly using your influence and power in the corporation to achieve a goal that is entirely separate from the actual task of earning money. In fact corporate bureaucracies are quite notable in the quite large amount of people whose jobs are entirely irrelevant to earning money. Therefore you can't just simply say that corporations only care about making money, as the decisions of a corporations are made by individuals who very frequently and easily won't share the same goal as the hypothetical goal of the company. If you disagree with this then I can assert the only reason you made this video was to make money as you are working in a business, and the point of a business is to earn money. Thus you don't necessarily care or even think any of what you said is true, and you are simply saying whatever you think will earn you the most money.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

What he means is hobby tourism is a good thing but you're bad for pointing it out and giving it a name

[@bewawolf19]

@@afuzzycreature8387 Okay, you said I am bad for pointing out tourism and naming it. Please say what my definition of tourism is, and to whom did I point it out? There is a correct answer by the by, and it isn't found in this video.

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@afuzzycreature8387 Well no, he is not defining hobby tourism correctly. He has good intentions but he is missing the mark. Yes, if you're calling some random person who just entered the hobby and are excited to learn a tourist, you're an asshole. But that's not who the pejorative is being used against. It is being used against those who enter the hobby with a ill intent. There are people who are not really interested in the hobby itself but rather they seek to use that hobby and its community as a springboard or platform for their own political beliefs, be they left or right wing. I think it's fair to refer to those individuals as tourists, but I think it's more apt to refer to those individuals as hobby agitators.

[@IncognitoActivado]

I think he was referring to what the term means in the real world.

[@mpbros207]

Hey bro, I like a lot of your videos but I do have to push back on there being no hobby tourist. There are a lot of people now a day who have an opinion without being part of the group. I get people who are angry I like krieg in my IG. They say I play a fascist group who look like the bad ww2 germans. They don’t actually care about 40K the lore or what I like. They only care enough to come in and tell me I’m wrong. I like the Prussian blue coats and gas masks. At no point am I painting them to look like that. I’ll give you the commissar looks bad. But again they only care to tell me I’m wrong without reading lore or playing. If that who said person is I do want them kept out of said gate.

[@FercPolo]

The commissar doesn't look bad. The commissar isn't a Nazi, none of these are Nazis and none of these are real and committed actual atrocity in real life. You can like whatever faction you like, and their lore, without being aligned with the worst histories in humanity. People who don't understand this are the insane people, not you.

[@dandaman9496]

@@FercPoloHence why people like that are called hobby tourists. They see things at a superficial level and have no respect for the setting.

[@FercPolo]

@@dandaman9496 Oh, entirely. I've played Warhammer for over 25 years. I've been the young child at the table, I've been the old man...never have i even one time seen anyone put up with bullying or hate of any kind but we never needed a company to tell us this. We didn't need activists. We were nerds, we just enjoyed our stuff and welcomed newcomers. Being gaslit that somehow nerds are anti-woman is the worst part of modern hobby culture.

[@stevebear6295]

Alot of "tourists" just watch lore on youtube and then never touch a mini or the game. It's fandom not a hobbie for them. They are no different to children looking at undertail or steven Universe.

[@dandaman9496]

@@AlbertZiegler069 Nah worse only implies they could make better choices. The Imperium of Man is what it is because It had to became that to survive. Its evil by our standards but noble if compared to all its threats.

[@TheMadYetti]

good, good, another drone to preach the "remade for modern audience"

[@gogo9263]

tourism in most places is destructive and harmful to the culture and setting because most tourists dont care for it and expect everything to cater to them, same applies to hobby tourists, it's pretty easy to understand when you have even the smallest a degree of intellectual honesty

[@ArchonSeachmall]

Hobby Tourist means someone who enters a hobby, looks at it and goes "I would like it more if the politics of the setting in the hobby reflected my politics". And while individuals don't have a say, governments, investing companies and people within a company do. And they follow the same logic and influence the company. As a hobby tourists you are supporting the changes in the lore of the setting, no one asked for. No one asked for black people on Ferris, no one asked for female Custodes. No one asked for lesbian space witches who were making Anakin Skywalkers before it was cool.

[@SkywalkerOne1977]

Spot on.

[@PerfectionHunter]

Unsubscribing

[@mrafk5658]

I agree with everything except maybe the black guy on fenris. There could have been in the first colon comming from earth he could have been black. But again he COULD have it was never said if there was one that was or wasnt. I agree that it feels out of place. But it could have been possible.

[@ArchonSeachmall]

@@mrafk5658 even IF you're looking at at least over 15000 years between the the colonists and the Crusade. No WAY those genes survived.

[@mrafk5658]

@@ArchonSeachmall Yup...i didnt think about it but its true that there is a 15000 year gap. My mistake.

[@calebgoodson7720]

As a creative director for a miniature company, I've said this many times, "You can stretch a concept all you want as a writer, but, if you stretch it too far, that concept breaks, and it becomes something else. If you find yourself doing that as a writer, you need to stop. Then you need to take your new concept, and create something original with it." Trying new concepts and new ideas are fine. Imposing a new concept on an old one that breaks lore is not. When you make a change to your lore, it must be for a good reason, and the change must be as good or better than the original, without breaking the lore. This is a difficult thing to do, and should not be done by amateurs. It should not be done for political reasons. This is a good way to alienate your loyal customers. GW has years upon years of profits, goodwill, and popularity to keep itself going, but how long until it becomes a "cut flower?" It is still beautiful, for a time, but it is cut off from what sustains it. Eventually, it will start to rot away, and become a husk of what it was.

[@Underworlddream]

Agree. One thing I like to do as someone creative is to see how far you can work a idea with in a set boundary of lore, rule, and limitation. It always a fun creative exercise that often lead to unique ideas that you never thought of and can make things better then the original idea. Can never understand these newer people who just want to brute force something to happen, it always end up a less interesting idea in the long run. On top of that when you add politic, it usually end up dated in the long run.

[@kudosbudo]

Mate. GW lore has been cut and changed since day one haha. Get over it.

[@calebgoodson7720]

@@kudosbudo No. I don't think I will.

[@whiteglint019]

@@kudosbudo You see, your opinion is irrelevant here. Your dishonesty is apparent.

[@Nerd_In_Exile]

The issue is we didn't gatekeep to begin with....

[@NotTheStinkyCheese]

Why the heck would you stop anyone from having fun in your hobby?

[@Behornn]

@@NotTheStinkyCheese That's not what gatekeeping is about.

[@matthewlane]

@@NotTheStinkyCheese "Why the heck would you stop anyone from having fun in your hobby?" Because their fun is not compatible with the fun of people who are legitimately part of the hobby. That's why hobby tourists immediately attempt to change any hobby they are being a tourist in, because they don't really care for the hobby. They have zero connection or interest in that hobby. And the more of these cultural locusts you allow in in a short period of time, the more of them arrive & the more power they have to change things to the detriment of everyone else, before destroying it & moving on to the next thing they want to destroy.

[@gehteuchnixan3052]

So basically, to keep out people who enjoy the jobby the "wrong" way, according to your personal preferences for ehat the "right" way is? Yeah, I can't think of any instances where that approach has ever lead to any bad outcomes. None at all. After all, subjective standards are always the best guide for everybody, right?

[@matthewlane]

@@gehteuchnixan3052 "So basically, to keep out people who enjoy the jobby the "wrong" way, according to your personal preferences for ehat the "right" way is?" No, to keep out people who don't enjoy the hobby at all & are only feigning interest because it is currently popular & they want to just turn it in to another innfection vector for "THE MESSAGE."

[@shakeval]

I always understood the term tourist to be applied to people who showed up ans started poking around, making negative comments about the local culture and trying to change everything because its 'outdated' or 'problematic'

[@spydrmrphy1429]

This, it's people using the hobby as a way to spread division and hate. It's people who are not really interested in what they are doing just to criticize it. It's like the tourists who go to another country and get pissed that it's not the way they wanted or imagined it would be. They are not visiting or trying a hobby, they want to start a fight usually for money.

[@artfrombelow]

See this makes sense

[@bopaintsminis]

Hobby tourists are the ones you tried to gatekeep out, or should've gatekept out, because they want to change all of the things that make the hobby unique. Fem-marines are the most notable example.

[@OrmylLP]

The only people changing wargames like that are GamesWorkshop, out of corporate greed. The people sowing division are political grifters, again out of greed.

[@RavenAdventwings]

This was the original meaning. Seeing how the term has evolved is a bit of a humorous example of context drift.

[@theonlytnargmatt]

It's not about a tier of commitment thing, the term "hobby tourist" means those who are only joining because its the in thing with no interest with getting to know the setting, I've never met in all my years someone who isn't hyped to help a newcomer get into the hobby. What we don't like is when people come into the hobby insisting that online memes they have seen are totally cannon i.e "dark angels are actually traitors and so was the lion", or "female space marines are totally possible because a youtube lore channel i like said so". May i suggest you take the time to learn the full meaning of internet terms before you make a video on them?

[@JeramyWare]

Lore changes. Cannon changes. The game is very different than it was when I bought my first set during serving edition. New lore. New armies. A whole new history. It's not the first time it's happened. It won't be the last.

[@IncognitoActivado]

You mean a "gatecrasher".

[@DungusDingus]

Says the tourist.

[@guillermoelnino]

A hobby tourist at that

[@shinkiro403]

Please tell me you are ironic, otherwise you are bottom-of-the-barrel-tier of intelligence (although that kind can easily dig through that too)

[@guillermoelnino]

@@shinkiro403 Step 1: pretend target is not serious because he's saying something y ou disagree with. Step 2: call target a du mby d umby p oopy he ad. Step 3: pretend y ou won an imaginary award.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

​@@guillermoelninono he is not serious because he doesn't engage with its reality. Instead he first denies it is occurring and then says it is good that it is occurring.

[@shinkiro403]

@@guillermoelnino don't even know where to start with ye kid... 1. No argument was made either side (although what I responded to is verifiably false, laughably so), I alone have no duty to elaborate. I will if you take their place and make an argument yourself 2. I never "award" myself nothing, but I do like a discussion that's either good or easy. You look like you could provide the latter, but who knows; so, what's your point? I'll follow up :) Edit: and after like four days and major lack of attributes on your part and whoever is agreeing with you without even the courage of trying to have a mature discussion we can safely say you guys don't actually have anything worth hearing and that you can be freely dismissed without guilt. Have fun bottoming out constantly (^^)/

[@Neolazaro91]

Anyone who's been in the hobby less than me is a tourist. Anyone who's been longer than me is simply out of touch. When will the world finally realise I'm the only one that's right?

[@manda60]

Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot, anyone who drives faster is a psycho. I am the only one that's right! Pervasive mindset!!

[@NornQueenKya]

Same rules for gaming. Anyone who's worse then me is a noob. Anyone better is a hacker

[@bonkstrum9555]

​@NornQueenKya how are you everywhere?

[@NornQueenKya]

@@bonkstrum9555 the hive mind sees all

[@occasional-dabbler]

I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong.

[@Kepora1]

*Yes, they absolutely fucking do.* You not understanding that =/= them not existing. I've been subbed to you for a long time and I've enjoyed your videos, but this is a *VERY* hard dealbreaker for me. I will not be subscribed to nor support a man who welcomes and/or defends those whom seek to overtake our hobbies, kick us out of them, and turn said hobbies into yet MORE political soapboxes.

[@NuSocTheKelDor]

Later tourist.

[@Renigade16]

​@@NuSocTheKelDor Oh wow you really showed that guy. Next time maybe you can be really clever and just "No you" him. 🙄

[@GaradrielS]

​@@NuSocTheKelDorhypocrite.

[@NuSocTheKelDor]

I've seen what makes you cheer, your boos mean nothing to me.

[@brokenhalo2001]

@@NuSocTheKelDor check out this edge lord quoting rick and morty LOLOL

[@brianlojeck]

If you look at what BlackRock has done to Disney or "Big Baby Games" has done to the gaming industry, the idea of an outside sabateur becomes much easier to believe, even if the "hobby tourist" term is asinine.

[@wtfserpico]

BlackRock is one of the biggest GW shareholders too.

[@brianlojeck]

@@wtfserpico They found a way to convince people to invest in a fund management company who's purpose is to lose money in every way possible. I don't get it.

[@professorracc.9780]

I think when people say 'hobby tourist' its a sort of elitism for older fans of a series that will have different desires than a newer player. Basically they don't like how a company will favour newer players than their old fanbase - which I suppose from a marketing standpoint makes sense but I can empathise with people who feel betrayed continually by the company. Are they right? I have no idea.

[@scottn7cy]

I get what you're saying but I suggest you're missing the impact of Blackrock and ESG on GW.

[@jtt8237]

ESG is little more than a conspiracy spouted by neo Nazis on Twitter. Why not log off and worry about real problems in the real world instead of made up shit that has literally zero impact on your life.

[@Kerath]

You must be joking.

[@kempachikaotic]

He's not

[@RabyGaming-l1y]

He's not, he's coping. It's typical intellectual dishonesty

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

The fact he says it’s just a hobby it’s just for fun is so incredibly dishonest in and of itself. There are people who literally have nothing to look forward to in life. A hobby for many is not just entertainment sometimes it’s what keeps people going, it’s all someone has to live for. Ironically I feel like this man was at least at one point that type of a person or has known many such people who literally, live for their hobby.. saying it doesn’t matter when the kids in hobby shops are usually kids who are bullied and don’t fit in and it’s the only way they can feel a connection. Trivializing it. Saying it is just a hobby it’s not life or death is actually for those outcasts the furthest thing from the truth. I guarantee you there are kids in this or other hobbies who are using the hobby as their sole reason for pushing through life. It is literally life and death for those people. Not to mention all the people who own shops or other community related businesses for whom the hobby is also literally their livelihood. Which likely includes this man’s channel, he is literally saying is business is just for fun where if the hobby just imploded he would be begging his viewers for financial help. It’s his privilege to say it’s just a hobby because he has built enough of a platform to be able to let it fail. Like nerdrotic who owned a comic book shop when comics became the cultural subversion of the moment and lost everything. This nugget could lose everything and he would completely change his tune.

[@TableTopTransformer]

Not as many people complained about price hikes as people possibly can/ should

[@ralphhodge4295]

@@TableTopTransformer as Adam alluded to, the only “comment” GW is going to listen to is folks who put their money where their mouths are.

[@tabletopminions]

The best way to complain about price hikes is to stop buying the things that have been price hiked. Buy from a company that’s more reasonable. But some people just keep going along with it. Thanks for watching!

[@TableTopTransformer]

@@tabletopminions As you've said we can all say stop buying from x, but unless people actually do, then the complaint it worthless

[@bonkstrum9555]

@TableTopTransformer I have a budget for warhammer of 10$ a week. I can save it up, ie. 6 weeks is one kit(60$) If more people spent money on the hobby like this then the prices would go down. I still see people in my club buying 1k points all at once. So yeah the problem doesn't have to be don't buy, it can also be buy in a budget. I spent 3 monthes not buying warhammer and bought the stormcast half of skaven tide of ebay+ a 20$ dominion kit new on spue. Now.my warhammer budget is back to zero

[@frostmagemarii]

@@TableTopTransformer We all stop buying from GW, but then that requires you to admit that the (beginning at) hundreds of dollars you've spent already will sit on the shelf with no purpose any longer.

[@Tugar-747]

I think Hobby tourist is sorta version of older term Wild Fan. That was someone who isnt really part of fandom and just follows current popcuture fashion. Example you would have old comic nerd going to comicon for 30 years and colleced hundreds of comic books vs kid who saw 5 latest Marvel movies and now is greatest comic expert.

[@BoneistJ]

Not really. Hobby tourists are new comers that come into a hobby and then want it to be something else then don't stick around when the hobby gets changed as it chases the alleged new sales that never materialize.

[@Tugar-747]

In that case I think term are being used insted one other. Incorrectly but still are being used. Thats how languages evolve after all.​@@BoneistJ

[@ThatGuyNicho]

I disagree but OK

[@ThatGuyNicho]

Also I don't share your definition of 'Gatekeeping'. Gatekeeping is a good thing anyway.

[@tabletopminions]

Who gets to decide who to “gatekeep?” What happens when those people gatekeep you out of the hobby? Gatekeeping is never a good thing. Thanks for watching.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

@tabletopminions Fair questions. First pass thoughts on some answers: 'The existing members of the community' and 'those gatekept adjust their behaviour in line with the community', respectively. It really isn't about, or a process of, pressuring *people* out of a hobby, but more so preventing or reducing the harmful attitudes and agendas which some people unfortunately bring into the hobby. Really going to have to disagree with you on whether it's not a good thing or is a good thing here (it is). More even than good, it's *necessary*. We have seen malicious intent erode so many other fandoms to the point of destruction; there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to check and curb such things. Whether 'Hobby Tourists' are a tangible thing, enough people perceive them to be a thing to have led to the creation of the term as a descriptor. I think they absolutely do exist - unfortunately for us all.

[@Riley-uy5pe]

​​@@ThatGuyNichooh but you love to do that, you're just mad that minorities are playing your games now and are showing you the door

[@winstonsmith8482]

@@tabletopminions That's exactly what they already are trying to do: "If you don't like female custodes you're a bigot and shouldn't buy our product" is basically their sentiment...

[@westernwarhorse]

Firstly, we need to properly define "tourism" as a movement term versus how some individuals might use it. Properly, a tourist in this sense is a bourgeoise prat who wants to visit a place but does not want to deal with said place on its own natural terms or those of the locals. For example, someone visiting a beautiful location yet thinking to themselves, "Why is there no McDonald's here?" The locals are not saying that you cannot enjoy a cheeseburger per se, but they are saying that you should try to fit in and support the locale as it exists rather than destroying the natural beauty to build a McDonald's. Consumerism is not a defense against the label because consumerism is assumed. A tourist will buy souvenirs and even visit the place regularly, but they still want the place commodified and repackaged for their specific consumption. Second, the problem many have with such "tourism" is also the motivation behind it: namely, entryism. In other words, many people these days believe that all things must be subservient to their sociopolitical worldview, and they see it as a mission of theirs to deprive others of escapism where it is seen as a bastion for "wrongthink." This is made obvious when their supposed engagement with the IP is never about the IP itself but rather about some unrelated cause or ideology. Their hobby is invading and changing a space for the sake of doing so, and, again, time in the space is no defense because this sort of entryism is a relatively recent phenomena... someone around for even years can now engage in something they would have never dreamed of doing in the past because it was simply unheard of. Thirdly, we need to dispense with the idea that these are somehow always cases of minority groups demanding inclusion where they have genuinely been excluded. Plainly put, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, BattleTech, 40K never excluded anyone, or told minorities that they do not or cannot exist in the setting. Not one ever had a "whites only" policy, or banned people from painting their minis as minorities. Furthermore, anyone looking into such divisions in fandoms for even a second should notice that there are minorities on the side of opposing changes and also that the loudest voices for "change" are virtually always white people speaking on behalf of minority groups to which they do not belong. In the case of "Wokehammer" on Twitter, Reddit, KZbin, and the like, the likes of Bitshammer, CerberusXt, and countless others demanding gender tokenism, racial tokenism, sexual tokenism, and so on... bourgeoise straight white men. It makes sense then that their idea of "inclusivity" is lazy tokenism. Something for which they can pat themselves on the back without actually inviting any minorities into their personal gated communities. You might get some black Space Wolves shoehorned into a story out of nowhere, but you will not see a new Astartes Chapter based on African cultures or mythology with their own minis, novels, and so on. You might get a Femstodes retcon, but you will not get anything meaningful from it. You certainly will not see any effort put into expanding, or even properly supporting, preexisting female-centric factions. These "tourists" enjoy nothing more than gentrifying the tourist spot so they can look down upon and bully the locals, and corporations love to pander to champagne-and-caviar activists as cover for their horrid anti-consumer policies. Every corporation has figured out the universal truth that you can price gouge, use slave labor, pollute, and virtually anything else as long as you pander to the activists on the right shallow issues. Finally, again, this is the crux of the problem for fans. The counterpoint is never that women and minorities are not allowed in the same spaces as white men, but it is rather that the IP should exist as its own thing and should be respected within its own context. After all, the fans fall in love with properties as they are created and intended, not how someone else prefers them. No one says you cannot enjoy a cheeseburger, but they instead question why you cannot order from a local restaurant rather than destroying the local area to build a McDonald's. Actual nerds never excluded or bullied anyone, but these "tourists" live to bully, steal, and deface for the sake of doing it, and their kabuki theater of playing the victim, playing the white savior, and all the rest is part and parcel of their true hobby.

[@AGloomySchizo]

Absolutely perfectly described. "Nerds don't bully or exclude anyone" is something I've always tried to live by. But it's not fun when someone claims to like something I like, and then want to change everything about it.

[@moustafa2253]

This topic flew way over your head bruh.

[@The_Loreseeker]

“Hobby tourists don’t exist!” Says man ignoring the hobby tourists.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

Not ignoring them - running cover for them.

[@Hax268]

If hobby tourists exist can you specifically point to just one we can verify?

[@jakea3950]

​@@Hax268 me, im a hobby tourist.

[@yukigono]

They don't exist in any significant numbers. You just call particular demographics you don't like, that.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

@@yukigono It's going to be near impossible to get firm numbers for them, but their malign influence isn't dependent on their sheer numbers.

[@cthomaspeasant3059]

I can only speak for myself when I say that I am tired of these irritating political activist tourists coming into everything we ever enjoy and trying to ruin it for the sake of their politics. Tourists can cry about being called out

[@rickyspanish6596]

I’m really enjoying the comments on this video. I love how so many people have come out to reject this dude, it’s super wholesome. Keep up the good work friend! Fight the good fight!

[@hillehai]

@@rickyspanish6596 Yeah, it's great to see a general pushback to the handwaving of these things that are very clearly taking place and are corrosive to the hobby. Didn't expect to see it on this channel though.

[@cthomaspeasant3059]

@@rickyspanish6596 Indeed, It's very nice to see people rejecting this guy's attempt at gaslighting the rest of us.

[@olaffunke2779]

In German you call a Person who tries out a lot of Games a Schmetterling, a butterfly 😉

[@bennydesign]

Yeah, and in German, we call that "despektierlich".

[@olaffunke2779]

@@bennydesign despektierlich 😉

[@r31n0ut]

That is adorable. I thought being adorable was against the law in Germany.

[@olaffunke2779]

@@r31n0ut come on, we have invented adorable

[@r31n0ut]

@@olaffunke2779 I thought you invented beer and fancy composers.

[@lugubriouscrumhorn]

Im 48 years old and have been in the hobby since '87. I dont engage with many hobbyists online because there's way too many crazy people getting extremely angry over what seems (at least to me) like almost nothing. However, I did get a really good belly laugh that time a bunch of random rabid anime pfps called John Blanche - JOHN BLANCHE - a tourist. I mean, if you dont know how important that man is to Warhammer, chances are *you're* the 'tourist' in this situation, my friend. 🤭

[@Jez-Hunt]

@@lugubriouscrumhorn kinda sums it up perfectly

[@Neruomir]

Plenty of wastes of carbon and oxygen on both sides of the fence but calling John Blanche a tourist takes the cake. You don't have to like the guy or his personal views but his iconic art contributions to the look and feel of what "grimdark" is is beyond dispute, he is the OG. Next some lackwit is going to take potshots at Rick Priestley.

[@SkywalkerOne1977]

You couldn't be more wrong. You're circling around the topic instead of addressing it head on. Look at who owns GW shares. That's who GW listens to.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

"constructing a useful definition is hard and some people misuse the term, therefore the thing the term refers to doesn't actually exist" a common take. not in a good way. hobby tourists are people who are in the hobby and have opinions on the hobby (or worse they want to change the hobby) without being invested and/or actually caring about the hobby. much like actual tourists often run their mouth about countries they aren't part of and don't care about. it's used as an insult because tourists are often annoying pests. especially now that click farming is a thing. there are as many reasons to get new people into your spaces as there are to keep some people out of them.

[@tabletopminions]

There’s never a reason to keep people out of your hobby. Thanks for watching!

[@bladeofhel]

@@tabletopminions There are heaps of reasons to keep people out of your hobby. What if that person is disrespectful to the hobby, and the people who are already a part of that hobby's community? What if their presence literally negatively impacts the enjoyment of everyone else already in the community?

[@ncpa1152]

@@tabletopminionsthere are always reasons to keep people out of your hobby, especially if those people want to change your hobby into something you don’t like in an attempt to force you out because they dislike your politics

[@ComicGladiator]

@@tabletopminions I guarantee there are people you think should be kept out of hobbies, you hypocrite.

[@peterkeyes1814]

@@tabletopminions Serial cheaters? You gonna sit around a table with them? How about people who are thieves and steal your minis? Cool, they can go to your club.

[@glefic]

Wargaming is my fall and winter hobby. I've been called a hobby tourist

[@mycatistypingthis5450]

I'd say you're just a hobby migratory bird 😊

[@funwithmadness]

Nothing is here that I would argue with. However, I would like to add a touch of nuance. There *are* those I would consider hobby tourists. Those people who have no interest in learning about the hobby itself but still have negative comments to make, either about the hobby or more likely those who engage in it. Other words for these people would be "trolls" or "bullies".

[@tabletopminions]

The world is full of trolls and bullies, but they don’t have some nefarious agenda - they’re just jerks. Thanks for watching!

[@Nobleshield]

@@tabletopminions If you really think that you' haven't been paying attention to anything.

[@frostmagemarii]

@@Nobleshield Well, he admittedly hasn't been. He said he doesn't do any of the social media stuff. He's the eccentric old man that never leaves his house, then he sees something happening out the window and thinks it's indicative of his whole town.

[@SabreXT]

@@tabletopminions "Nefarious" might be a bit of a strong word. But it's damaging the hobby in order to benefit themselves before moving on. They don't care about the damage, as the community and hobby was of no interest to them.

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@frostmagemarii You cant convience me just locking out social media and staying in your house protected by a salt circle isnt good. 😂

[@caitlinharper5408]

A person trying out the hobby/seeing if it fits them/new to the hobby isn't a tourist. A Hobby Tourist is someone who bounces about between hobbies, doesn't interact with the hobby and attempts to change the hobby to fit their views You actual hit on what a tourist is bit refuse to believe they exist. They absolutely do Add in the fact that you call the minis "toy soldiers" means your views are worth less and nothing

[@tabletopminions]

If not toy soldiers, then what are they, then? As I said, I’ve painted thousands of them, and enjoy looking at them and playing with them - but they’re toy soldiers. We’re playing GAMES with them - they’re playing pieces, pure and simple. What do you think they are? Honest question. Thanks for watching.

[@MaceLupo]

@@tabletopminions If they are only that to you, it means you are a tourist. Back in the day we called people like that posers.

[@dandaman9496]

@@tabletopminionsA toy is an object you interact with at an individual level to find enjoyment from. A miniature figure is a tool to designate a certain item/character/vehicle in a game. You can play with your spacemarines as toys but they are designed to be markers to designate your troops in a war game. Is the metal car in monopoly a toy or does it represent your location on the game board?

[@P.D.W1]

​@@tabletopminionsyou accurately stated that yes infact you are a tourist....

[@brokenhalo2001]

@@MaceLupo Kinda sad the posers and the types of people that used to shit on nerd stuff are now flooding into nerd ips coz its popular and then when they get called out they bully the actual fans out by gaslighting and waffle about isms etc etc. Rinse and repeat.

[@cadet1ice]

Physiognomy checks out

[@opaqued2039]

"Hobby tourist" seems like a much nicer term to call someone to degrade their argument or opinion. That doesn't make it right or clever, but I think there are worse things that people are called when they disagree with corporate decisions. In many other hobbies, see Dungeons & Dragons, comic books, knitting, and just about any entertainment IP controlled by corporations, when you disagree with anything done (rules, art choices, story/lore changes, etc.), you're called some type of "ist" or "phobe", and they don't care how long you've been in the hobby. In fact, the longer you've been in the hobby, the more you're reminded that the hobby is not for you--in that exact language. Also, if you don't agree, and you happen to have a particular set of immutable physical characteristics, the same "community" that touts diversity and inclusion uses those factors as an argument of whether or not your opinion is valid. I look forward to your video condemning this practice as well. As a side note, corporations make a lot of decisions that lose them money to push a particular set of values--like billions of dollars. See D&D, Star Wars, Star Trek, Amazon Prime's LotR, Marvel, the entire super hero comic book industry, and many other examples not adjacent to the war gaming hobby. There's just too much video evidence at this point to ignore this reality.

[@yakovlevlt]

Oh yes, "You won't be missed" GW manifesto!

[@tychoMX]

@@yakovlevltnot to comment on this specifically, but the paradox of tolerance is that it can’t tolerate those that can’t make any compromise with others. The allusion to a set of immutable physical characteristics poses a working example. If by “valid wargamer’s opinion” the community was referring only to Nottingham natives, male, from the ages of 16 to 45 then I think you’d agree that’s unnecessarily - even ridiculously - restrictive. So you ok with non English speakers playing? Women? The elderly? There’s a very large crossover in this hobby with role playing and fantasy enthusiasts. And maybe some very vocal aspiring gatekeepers have not realized that fictional settings have ALWAYS attracted personalities that feel don’t feel comfortable with average/standard/normal social activities. WH40K attracts the nerds. The geeks. The socially inept. The beardy. The weird. The awkward. Those these still haven’t found how to be comfortable with themselves. Which should not make it surprising that our hobbies include such a diverse cross section. Asking them to conform to some unofficial orthodoxy is - well, hilarious. But also demeaning. And ultimately probably doomed.

[@jeromekammerer4733]

"More people into your thing is always good nothing bad can happen." Yeah like in Rome during the 5th century : it got better.

[@brokenhalo2001]

im in the middle of watching this vid but gee if he really said that then its pretty clear how much of a casual and or tourist he really is. Every nerd knows that it NEVER turns out well when ya niche hobby goes mainstream.90% of the time it gets ruined.

[@Cosmoproto]

@@brokenhalo2001 You don't even know what hobby is being talked about, lol

[@brokenhalo2001]

​@@Cosmoproto lolol wut ?

[@Cosmoproto]

@@brokenhalo2001 see what I mean? lol

[@brokenhalo2001]

@@Cosmoproto nope ya just a troll. byyyyye

[@Badbufon]

i have been watching warhammer videos over a year, from painting to meta analysis, ranked matches, i comment in reddit and other videos, i began to read all the books from the first edition onwards including side games... i haven't played a game yet, i haven't painted a mini yet and most importantly, i don't even own a miniature. i don't know if i am a hobby tourist or if i am the terminal man

[@redhairjoe1]

Homie welcome to the hobby regardless. I know a lot of comments here really range the gambit but remember, people aren’t opposed to people joining the hobby regardless of background or interest. Join the hobby and community voice your opinions about the world. Become part of us because it’s special you’ll go from tourist to warhammerer (?) in no time.

[@Anthony-ng5pq]

I hope this week has taught you something.

[@PyromancerRift]

He's old, he should have already learned that lesson. But these people think they are on "the right side of history".

[@VetBodGaming]

Nailed it, GW doesn't even listen to their highest paying customers.

[@11AleZZ]

Hobby Tourists certainly are a thing, they are people that change hobbies every season , not because isn't their thing, but because they move with the fads, years ago with the hype of super hero movies ton of people were in the comic collectors hobby, the next season was retro video games, next season was anime stuff, next season was Warhammer , and so on, and it's a pretty common situation, so in this case when someone it's referring "hobby tourist" isn't talking about a newbie o rookie hobbyist, it's talking about a a person that is in the hobby (wargames in this case) just for the fad.

[@mekosmowski]

I'm a dillettante that rotates through a few hobbies. Though I usually research and buy nice things for them. It's also becoming more and more obvious that shareholder and customer interests are often more divergant than private company ownership and customer interests. So I'm conaidering shifting my spending towards interests more in-line with my own.

[@herrmartinsson1987]

haha that first Vince Venturella comment was gold!

[@thecosmic8248]

The usual replies from that crowd on twitter is obnoxious. If you watch TM and call him a tourist in a hobby he cares so much about you have to either be delusional or have so much hate in your heart people who aren’t in your circle avoid you like the plague.

[@Telthar]

I strongly disagree with the idea the big companies cannot be influenced by groups with only a marginal involvement with their product pushing for changes based on ideology. It has happened many times, the big company is convinced that what they are doing is wanted by way more people than actually want it. This is how lobbying works in one part, tricking a person or entity into thinking something is more desired than it actually is. Sometimes, it isn't a big deal, some times it does serious damage. Heck, the US government gets tricked over and over and over by lobbyists on a daily basis.

[@steambub]

It's not so much tourists making noise, but tourists getting into sits of power that's the problem. Look at Star Wars. And the difference between a tourist and a hobbyist is simply respect. If you can respect what came before and why other fans enjoy it, then you're a hobbyist. But if you don't like what it was or despise the fans, then you're a bona fide tourist.

[@Swooper86]

I was a hobby tourist earlier this year. I went to visit Warhammer World in Nottingham. That was hobby tourism.

[@PatGilliland]

Went back in 2012 - not a WHfB or 40K player - still had a great time looking at all the minis - so yeah a total tourist.

[@ThatGuyNicho]

I hope they didn't rip you off. And I hope you got the chance to visit some of Nottingham's fine pubs!

[@Swooper86]

@@ThatGuyNicho I didn't buy anything except the tour, the two Realm of Chaos books and a pint at Bugman's. Everything else I wanted was out of stock.

[@timothyyoung2962]

I was called a hobby tourist in a discussion because I simply pointed out how much GW has barrowed from other sci-fi and fantasy sources to build 40K. Meanwhile, here I am, reading my copy of Rogue Trader and remembering when I opened my first box of actual plastic space marines back in 1988.

[@lilchinesekidchen]

that’s crazy because you’re 100% right. 40K is just dune but edgier

[@WhiteCollarCrimeDNB]

Me, who has plastic SoB cleaned and primed to mix in to my armies on parade board.

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@lilchinesekidchen 40k is easier to get "Big E good, Aliens + Choas bad" Dune like "we hit people with sticks so it can go through shields" and w o r m s

[@johnnnysilverhand9819]

@@Subject_Keterand that’s just Book 1 of Dune. By Book 4, shields, worms, desert and space combat become basically non-existent, and the other 99% of the books concern religion, capitalism, communism, agriculture, fossil fuel and limited resources, genetics and ethnicity, gender discussions, aristocracy, economics, and biology becomes front and center…

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@johnnnysilverhand9819 You need to actually like the thing enough to read it. Like I like Batman moderatly, i like mysteries good enough. But i will not read "The Long Halloween" cuz i find the book fucking dreadfully boring. It not what i like and nothing is going to change it. Or I only like 40k cuz Big E plans used to make a moderate amount of sense but now it like "idfka" and he was either too focused on a cheesey sweep or too distracted on eldar booty. But i still like Big E despite.. the Choas Gods imo being the most lame idea i ever read.

[@JRMcDowell]

I was recently called a hobby Tourist. I had no idea this was a thing, so I did not know I was being insulted. Funny I brought Scale75 and ran all their US business, I helped start Scale Games. I help write and Create FALLEN FRONTIERS. I am a game character in Horror Rules, and a Super card game by Crusifiction Games. I ran 6 game conventions, and I owned 2 game stores. So I don't feel like a Game Tourist. I have been into and done so much in gaming. So I don't tend to allow these Gate Keeping kids to define me.

[@JRMcDowell]

PS - if anyone is calling you a Hobby Tourist, they are not paying attention or just maybe a Hobby Tourist. LOL

[@danielc-s8056]

This video was a mistake. This trope Adam is addressing of a hobby tourist absolutely does exist, they are people that are more interested in injecting their RL politics into communities than the hobby itself. This trope is not about the normal average tourist checking out the hobby, it's about the people that post to X saying they want to drive everyone they politically disagree with out of all communities. Check it out, they actually exist. Misguided video from an otherwise well intentioned source.

[@Annarach]

Found one!

[@Jez-Hunt]

And those rage-tubers who bang on about gatekeeping everyone out of a thing, like Arch and Carl of Swindon.

[@yukigono]

They're vanishingly rare, almost mythical. You mostly just accuse anyone who you don't like of being one.

[@danielc-s8056]

@yukigono they are rare, I agree. I think that social media and click/rage bait probably magnify the perception of their numbers.

[@henry7696]

imagine you have a book club youve run for 10 years at your home. you and your group specifically read and discuss high fantasy novels. then one day a couple of random people just make their way inside and pull up chairs and join the group. "OK" you say to yourself...then one of them whips out a teen focused makeup magazine, the other pulls out a 5 page pamphlet from the local golf club. Now they demand your club share and read those things, instead of high fantasy novels. Now, i already know your reply. you will say "they are entitled to their opinions". Sure. then they start to get louder and louder each week. Now they are screaming, crying and saying youre "GATEKEEPING!" because you guys only read high fantasy. Why wont you read the golfclub pamphlet? do you HATE people who play golf!? Do you HATE girls who want to read about makeup?! At that point, you can do only do 2 things, either try to ignore them until they leave OR explain to them why this book club is only about high fantasy novels. You can of course lock the door to stop them from coming in, but then someone like yourself would complain about that too. about how thats unfair. If you cave in and start changing the group so its about any kind of written words, soon youll notice those original 2 people that were screaming about golf and makeup have already moved on. They were never interested in high fantasy novels.

[@redhairjoe1]

God thank you for such an explanation

[@fragfmgill]

interesting, but i disagree Hobby Tourists absolutely exist. At my clan a guy in his early 20's was painting for about a year but during his first game with me he couldn't stop complaining about the game, the setting and the stories. Why are you playing 40k if there's nothing you like about it XD

[@Mark-sd4hv]

Wizards of the Coast: Orcs are black people so we can't have them or racial differences in the game Disney: we have a not so secret Gay Agenda You: ITS JUST A CONSPIRACY THEORY

[@VidJunkie63]

I did ask for that price hike ... it was an experiment in reverse psychology. Sadly, it failed.

[@AndrewMcColl]

I have one quibble with this. Most of my overseas travel (in a touristy way) has been either exclusively or partly so I could attend Gen Con. Technically speaking I am an actual Hobby Tourist - just not in the way it's used online.

[@professorweber]

Exactly! This is what this should be defined as, not a "gatekeeper" term.

[@danpaulsen4123]

its going from one fandom to another and another and changing things those interested in it don't like and moving on. YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE TERM YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT again

[@LordSauerkraut]

Yes, companies listen to where they persive profits, yet we have seen the GDC 2019 talk panel of SweetBaby Inc. Co-Founder Kim Belair, who said "If you want to see Inclusivity, you need to terriffy your co worker with what will happen if you do not get what you want". Granted she said it in the context of videogames, but she is not the only one, who thinks and acts that way. That is why I will call these people happily Tourists as they will move on the moment the hobby is destroyed and changed to their liking.

[@Geothesponge111]

Literally the next thing she said after that was "I'm mostly joking when I say that." And it wasn't terrify your co-worker, it was in the context of a consultancy group approaching a publisher. Trying to scare companies with what'll happen if you don't hire your consultancy group is how all consultancy groups, ever, operate.

[@BoneistJ]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anyone who's been in the hobby space for more than a minute actually still believes that 'the only thing they listen to are sales'. Games Workshop's behavior alone wildly disproves that idea.

[@ryhmorhaz]

is "hobby gentrifier" or "hobby colonizer" a better way of getting at the idea?

[@pentacosttb2565]

This is very silly and disingenuous. Given the number of people that get into various hobbies, especially GW war games, who are only there because it’s popular, and who then make demands to have things be changed to better cater to them and their tastes. Honestly, it just sounds like you’re trying to redefine what everyone means when they call people tourists. It’s this lack of distinction between actual fans and the bad actors that have already forced changes that are detrimental to the hobby that is part of the reason we keep having to suffer through games and fiction getting worse, driving away the actual fans and companies folding. Look at the absolute shit show that is gaming, comics, Star Wars, Star Trek and Doctor Who. That’s what happens when you pretend ‘tourists’ don’t exist and aren’t a massive bloody danger to your hobby.

[@Kahtini]

Or the folks bitching about the "changes" in what you listed weren't frikken paying attention to the properties in the first place. Example, folks who complain about Star Trek going "woke" have failed to realize that Star Trek has ALWAYS been "woke"/progressive. Sometimes the changes being asked for are also from long time members of the hobby that have been overlooked, not just the new comers.

[@opaqued2039]

@@Kahtini If you like Star Trek, then enjoy it. But it's clearly different than previous Trek, and the criticisms I've heard (and agree with) were for bad writing, bad acting, tearing down previous characters in ways that don't make sense, etc. Then when you point out these things, you're called some form of "ist" or "phobe". It was liberal, not woke or progressive. So was Dr. Who. Currently, neither one contains any of the elements that made them enjoyable and financial successful. New comers to the hobby are not the problem. Bad actors that want to change the hobby to fit their specific ideology are the problem. A good indication that something is woke/progressive: There are less fans of both properties than there have ever been. It turns out that when bad actors are done, and they've driven off (most if not all) previous fans, they move on to the next thing that needs to be changed.

[@Kahtini]

@@opaqued2039 Racial and sexual equality were hallmarks of the OG Star Trek. Those were/are progressive ideologies. Bad writing is bad writing, it can happen no matter what the stances the show/movies wants to take. It's not the fault of the ideologies, progressive or conservative. Many of the issues of bad writing these days can be traced back to writers either not getting enough time to do a polished/decent script, or due to the writer not getting paid enough to give a shit. The control of that is in the hands of the producers/corporations. This is not factoring in the rose colored nostalgia glasses. Star Wars was always kinda schlocky. That was part of it's appeal. So when the new stuff is also schlocky, folks are going "why is the writing so 'bad'?" It's always been there.

[@lorcannagle]

​@@Kahtini Harrison Ford infamously said "You can write this shit George, but I sure can't say it" to George Lucas on the set of Star Wars!

[@Kahtini]

@@lorcannagle Carrie Fisher would talk about how she would "fix" the dialog of Star Wars to make it more... coherent? speakable?

[@kenupton4084]

I just got the alert for this video. It's 6:14am on Tuesday morning. When I clicked on the notification it said it was posted 22 minutes ago. The video says 4 days ago. Thanks KZbin.

[@hogger95905]

I complain about Gamesworkshop to people in person. But when 40K combat patrol came out I bought a box of models. Now that Spearhead for AOS is out I bought a box of Orks. I have stopped buying their paint but I’m not doing a good job of not supporting GW. Oh well.

[@PotanCZ]

"Peple who call somebody hobby tourist are imho wrong and you shouldnt listen to them, because its gatekeeping." - This is the whole video. I saved you 10 minutes. 😅

[@danriehl4244]

As someone with ADHD, I pick up and drop physical games pretty quickly and often. I like the idea of Wargames, but I'm not good at them and I don't really have many people around me to play, but I still pick up small forces or intro sets, obsess over the rules, and then drop them after a week to a month. That's all to say that I think I qualify as a hobby tourist lol. I spend money to visit (try) a country (game), but eventually still leave to go home (drop it in an ever-growing pile of shame). Lorcana is the current exception, as all rules have.

[@Kepora1]

That's not a hobby tourist. A hobby tourist is a far lefty whom wants to come to a new space, infect it with their politics, drive out the old fans, turn it into a far left soapbox, then abandon it and move on once there's no fans left to preach to.

[@bladeofhel]

That's not what hobby tourism refers to. Hobby tourism isn't about people who drift in and out, or who dip their toe in to try things. Hobby tourist is a term that refers to people who come into a hobby, and don't respect the established hobby, the culture around it, or about the community...the term likens their behaviour to the kinds of tourists that go around disrespecting the cultures they visit: they throw trash everywhere, they try to touch things they shouldn't, they're rude to the locals, they complain about the food, etc. Hobby tourists basically come into a hobby, and like those bad kinds of tourists, they insult the people already there, they try to change everything to suit their own tastes, and they aren't interested in engaging with the local community and its culture.

[@johnbruce4004]

Since 1983 eh? Newbie! Second set of rules I bought in 1972 from WRG (in UK) Infantry Action1925-1975. Still one of the best skirmish games I've ever played.

[@Wulfen73]

Okay, I'm going to try to politely explain it. Hobby Tourists (Also jokingly called "Genestealers" by 40k fans) is not a comment on someones commitment to a game, it is a reference to an old concept of tourists entering an area, making a bunch of demands of the locals to suit themselves, then departing leaving a an area culturally and economically damaged that they don't care about because they never had any investment in the first place. Imagine for example I sit down with you to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons, it's my first time with the group and we start going with an old classic like... starting in a tavern. "Oh" but I say, "I find drinking personally offensive (this is not a comment on anyones religious beliefs just take it as I find drinking offensive for personal non-religious reasons), we shouldn't be in a bar" the GM shrugs, it's a small thing, the party is called before the local lord. "Ugh" I say, "nobility are horrible people who oppress their people, I don't want to help him" Okay... a local magistrate needs help with... "ACAB!" I interject, okay a random villager had his daughter taken by orc raiders "Ugh now you are just being racist" Then I get up "this is stupid, we should just play cyberpunk." and then later that night you found me online calling your whole group a bunch of ignorant racists. Then I refuse to shift on any of it. Are you having fun? Or is this a frustrating and exhausting experience that I most certainly will not be invited back after. That's the hobby tourist, they aren't coming in to enjoy a hobby, they are there to put their flag on it, change anything and everything to suit themselves and utilize as vicious a smear campaign as needed to chase off any who oppose them. Then when the hobby lies in ruins and it's popularity is gone they move of to infect something else and they aren't bothered, they never cared about the hobby in the first place.

[@Smilomaniac]

It'll fall on deaf ears, he's not interested in actually listening. I don't know if you noticed, but what he defines is just disagreement and so he projects his own behavior onto people using the term, which he disagrees with.

[@Zaoresor]

Your just “conspiracy theorists” and “gatekeeper”. Sadly, reading comments here, mostly people are just to distant from cultural events behind their hobbies or projecting political discussion, with all its baggage and rhetoric on to the hobby. So your explanation sadly will fall on the deaf ear here.

[@Wulfen73]

@@Zaoresor I care little for those who won't listen, a handful will and those are who matter. :)

[@Wulfen73]

@@Smilomaniac I did, but that's fine, other more reasonable people might see it

[@bopaintsminis]

@@Wulfen73 This comment should be pinned. Thank you.

[@artistpoet5253]

So...like a poser, right? In it for clout but not enough to actually make a meaningful contribution? or is it more like they think they can make the space better but all they do is dilute what made it a space to begin with?

[@ONIMOT100]

No. Watch the video again.

[@bladeofhel]

No, that's not what a hobby tourist is...and the video is wrong anyway. A hobby tourist is someone that comes into a hobby space and acts poorly, like the worst kind of real world tourists: they touch stuff they're not supposed to and they disrespect the locals and their culture.

[@artistpoet5253]

@@bladeofhel now that makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

[@tjthehobopainter9173]

Haven't heard of the term hobby-tourist before. Learning something new every day 😅 If i had to point out a hobby-tourist in the wargaming setting, i'd point at scalpers. People that have 0% interest in anything hobby related, and just buy up stuff in order to resell it with a hefty pricetag >.>'

[@bladeofhel]

Yeah, scalpers are an issue, but hobby tourists refers to something pretty specific. A hobby tourist is someone that comes into the hobby, but isn't really interested in assimilating into the hobby, they're more interested in being moralistic busy bodies that want the hobby to change to fit their own morals and aesthetics, often at the expense of the existing hobby and its fans.

[@jup331]

I have to disagree to some point: There ARE "Hobby Tourists" that come from the outside and have nothing to do with the hobby but want to change stuff. I have seen at least one video by a right wing youtuber who had nothing to do with wargaming but was adamant that GW ruined Warhammer by introducing female Custodes. I DO agree that those opinions dont matter at all. Its just annoying to see.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

So a right wing youtube complained about gw bending to hobby tourists. Now you're upset about it.

[@RenegadeY]

​@@afuzzycreature8387so uncle atom complain about people calling others tourists and you're mad about it

[@DJRockford83]

Tourist (yes a pejorative) usually refers to someone who enters a hobby in order to change it, then once changed they move on to the next thing to change. This is of course not tourism as such it is entryism.

[@tritarch6687]

"Vote with your wallet". Amen to that!

[@irregularmagazine]

I've been called a hobby tourist even though I've been in the hobby since 83....lol

[@Jez-Hunt]

Aye, me too, gaming since 1986.

[@irregularmagazine]

@@Jez-Hunt and probably by someone who's been alive for less years than you've been in the hobby lol

[@SashaS-s2z]

If you're not one of the 14 people to attend the very first wargaming convention in 1956, you're not serious enough about the hobby. Obviously.

[@Jez-Hunt]

@@SashaS-s2z those Johnny-come-latelys didn't play Kriegspiel in the 19th century, the bloody tourists!

[@perfidy1103]

​@@SashaS-s2z if you're not a Prussian officer from the nineteenth century who played the original kriegsspiel you're a hobby tourist. If you are you're dead (or maybe a vampire, in which case that's cool).

[@Alan-pn8nu]

A guy I know doesn't read, play or paint. His engagement with the hobby is almost entirely through the controversies online. I know this person in real life (we work together) and whenever I try to engage him in conversation about reading, playing or painting he says "Nah, its too much time/money investment" and changes the subject to the most recent controversy. His actions actually remind me of the "poorism" trend where middleclass and rich folk go to poor places to see how poor people live. He isn't interested in joining in with the hobby, he just wants to observe our community and occasionally pitch in with his own opinion which is almost always based on his own personal political leanings rather than experience from being in the hobby. Ultimately I agree with everything else in the video, but "hobby tourists" do exist. They are not a "conspiracy" they are just people who enjoy observing and commenting on our community from the outside. Which in my opinion, does not make them a beginner.

[@LunarArchivist]

If you think that a higher-than-average downvote to upvote ratio exists on this video because of KZbin comment tourists, that's just a conspiracy theory.

[@kudosbudo]

The tourists are the one downvoting. Typical alt right brigading behaviour.

[@Dardhunter-h9m]

Do not suffer the hobby tourist...

[@tommylud4324]

Skirmish/war gaming is not easy to get into.. it's a well knit social network that is intimidating for everyone outside.

[@gonarsan]

Living in South America drives you into a higher cost for everything wargaming related, even more than what actually it really is. Not only with our punished economies and low wages, you must add taxes, shipping costs and a devaluated coin. But, in certain form, it creates into us some inmunity to all the "official" allegiance into minis and rulesets that I can see around the hobby. I'm been around 4 years into this, my first take being with an ex-friend, lets call him "X", who bought a WH Warcry core set on the pandemic times. As a long time roleplaying gamer, it was easy to me being fascinated with the game. Later, my friend requested me to study the WH40K ruleset. He bought and Adeptas Sororitas army and started building it. With him and another friend, "Y", we started making terrain. Meanwhile, I was locating nearby gamers and diving into the lore and the rules. We met another nearby groups and share some time looking at them playing. Even if much of this people used proxies or "phantom bases", I started to feel the weight that all the GW question had around the wargaming community. Slowly, we stopped playing just to making preparations for the game itself. We requested him to just play sometimes, Warcry or another games, but he only was focused on his WH40K army. It made me lose a lot of interest, and started to have nostalgia on that old "non competitive just for fun" Warcry days. On the WhtsApp of one of that local gaming groups, somebody shared the Brutality free rules, then Y and me tried it. It was amazing! Really funny! Being miniature agnostic and with a lore that even encourages that feature, I feeled it like the panacea of the cheap wargaming for the argentinian gamer. We played using some DnD paper minis and another ones from a Blood Rage box set. The terrain were rocks, wood blocks cardboard boxes and some quick terrain made of electrodomestics protective foam made by X. We invited him to share some games with us, but he always rejected, heavily focused on finishing painting his battle sisters. Maybe a year later, we had personal discrepances with X on heavy sad topics, and after a few months he left the town and moved to the provincial Capitol city. Being the one who owned all the minis and terrain, all the Warhammer thing left away with him. Ocassionally we played Brutality with the guys, but we focused again on DnD. Around a year ago, I moved to Buenos Aires for some healthcare topics, and I started making terrain again. It sparked again my wargaming desire, and months later, when I returned to the town, we started playing Frostgrave with the guys. The fascination spreaded over all the group! We started making more terrain, looking for minis on everywhere, from kinder dwarves to dollar store halloween spiders and other critters. Some even started investing on 3D pinted minis! Slowly, I started moving away from the town to the city, and finally moved to Buenos Aires definitely this year. Here, I knowed a lot of people like me, like my friends on the little town. The Warhammer and the other "official" games exists, yes, but the huge community of indie skirmish wargaming is alive and vibrant. I started here working into gamemastering, and this Sunday I'm organizing a gaming day. A guy called me offering a demo of OPR, a game that I wished to try but I hadn't the time to do it. So, it came to me! And even better, the Monday I go on vacations some days into the town, so my witch will meet again on Felstad with the wizards of my friends!

[@JasonRobards2]

Try 3D printing. It opens so many possibilities.

[@sylvainvanduyl6143]

I build scale models and have a small webshop that sales conversion kits, kits and figures. I always say, 'You do you". It would be great if a customer builds and paints a diorama with my kits, as realistic as possible. But, if they decided to use hot glue to build that model and paint it with a huge block brush and calls it wonderful... Who am I to call him a hobby tourist... Or a bad modeller... If he is happy... Who am I? If he sees that it is not what he wanted, then he will do better next time. I have had a customer, bought figures for a diorama. He was clearly a terrain and vehicle modeller. But, the figures were not at the same standard. He was really happy! Who am I tell him to do a drybrush and edge highlight. A light wash on the face... Who....am....I...? A different customer bought a kit, he painted the camouflage print with a paint brush...not the neatest paint job, but he did the best he could. He was happy with this results. Who am I to say that he needs to use an airbrush... But on a facebook group, people complained that he needed to do better. Everyone has a different approach and different tast. Not everyone is 'Night Shift', Vincy-V or Ninjon. People are not the same in quality. You do you!

[@PatGilliland]

Shop link?

[@sylvainvanduyl6143]

@@PatGilliland I can not put a website. But it is sylly's mini models. Conversion kits, kits and figures.

[@peterkeyes1814]

With all due respect, I believe this video misses the point, incorrectly uses the term and mischaracterizes the better part of the people using the term. Therefore your response (which I agree with) is out of context. It isn't about length of time or skill level or arguments over techniques and ideas to improve the hobby etc. The term tourist generally means people who are disingenuous in their motivations who interject themselves and demand changes to the nature of a hobby or fan space to fit themselves. This is different from being a newbie who gets something wrong or just being an opinionated know -it-all bell end ( like my reply) and mostly affects lore based IPs (not historical). For instance if a customer told you that some of your kits needed updating as none of the WW2 Imperial Japanese Infantry heads you produced were female or that the decals of the rising sun should be changed as they could offend someone from the Solomon Islands, not because your accuracy of that period was off or you didn't have enough sun rays on the symbol. Another example would be they complain that the dioramas your customers made were problematic due to their subject matter (even though they are within the setting and not vulgar) and demand you take these customer build photos off your webstore, not that the diorama had used early period camo on a late period tank. It does seem to be used too loosely an/or incorrectly quite a bit and yeah it is used as an insult but that's the internet for you, and this is just the latest battlefield of the culture wars, mostly in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy wargaming rather than historical as the lore is fixed (for the most part). Maybe it is an age thing as our knees are too knackered to get on our soup box anymore. You do you and best of luck with the business.

[@PatGilliland]

@@sylvainvanduyl6143 Great - thank you!

[@king0vitrial]

Yeah, that's not really what the hobby tourist problem actually is... the real issue is people who don't actually play the game or purchase the product, but still have obnoxious and overbearing opinions about the genre and it's culture. Those are the hobby tourists, here to complain, but not actually engage with the game.

[@jakea3950]

Thats my thoughts too but people ate disagreeing. They think its grounds are only based on different opinions. Id like to include my grounds are also on the game changing and the attitude associated with the gane to be hostile. Far worse fates than having a stranger name call you.

[@GeneJordan]

I see those people both on online forums and at my friendly local gaming stores. They may be into another genre sold at the gaming stores, but they have an opinion about another genre they don't even participate in. One or two creatively asked yet genuine questions usually brings that to light within the conversation. I've heard a person whom I know has never assembled a single model complain about how a new player's force was painted, or wasn't painted at all. I've heard wargame mathematicians critisizing the unit choices in a new player's force because they aren't power gaming the latest meta in their faction - or worse, they criticize the new players choice of faction because "you'll never win a game" with that. They say these things in an attempt to sound smart in that particular genre, instead of sticking to whatever genre they know best and encouraging the people who are participating in it. I've also seen and heard the game store card players complain about 2 to 4 miniature gaming players who were "taking up the space of a whole table for hours" at the store "that several card players could have been using". While they were happily sitting at another table playing their games for hours and there was nobody waiting to play and there were still plenty of empty tables. I guess there are going to be complainers in any gaming genre, along with people who are jerks and enjoy putting other people down or gatekeeping. That doest mean we have to tolerate them for long.

[@Loli-Knight]

To be fair, tourists can actually be people who buy the product too... just not long-term or a whole lot. They're the kind of people who, say, join the anime community, continue to consume the various products, but complain about how they want all the "Japanese-esque eccentricities" removed.

[@GeneJordan]

@@Loli-Knight this is true, since many tourists do enjoy buying or collecting souvenirs from all the genres and games they have visited.

[@opaqued2039]

I think bad actor would be a better term than hobby tourist. It's still a lot nicer than what they're going to call anyone that doesn't immediately affirm the "obnoxious and overbearing opinions about the genre and it's culture".

[@2nd_Directorate]

Way to go to not understand what the meaning of "tourist" is. A Tourist is one who jumps in and does not respect the lore or consistency behind whatever that person plays or is a "fan" of and demands change on his whim. And these demanded changes are usually way out of the usual settings pace, lore, internal consistency or mood. It has nothing to do with expertise in the rules or not buying anything. That person is relatively new usually tho (so not the 20 years vet).

[@InterplanarerPennersoeldner65]

There is no "lore to respect". Stop putting fantasy stories on a pedestal and leave people to interprete it as they want, yeeesh! This is such a cringe behaviour, stahp...

[@tabletopminions]

People can “demand” changes all they want, but corporations only change if they think it’ll make profit. This conspiracy theory that small groups of “tourists” with an agenda are actually changing anything by “demanding” it is silly. It’s not the real world. Thanks for watching.

[@frostmagemarii]

@@tabletopminions These small groups punch above their weight because companies pretend to be sensitive to social issues, in which these groups hold up as a flag when attempting to influence the hobby. They also present the Kryptonite of the company.. the promise of new, untapped customers. Companies see this group that would buy all their products if only they made the changes to accommodate them; and so, they make the changes to their setting to bring in the new customer but they don't realize that these people are not customers and were never going to be... but it doesn't matter because their current customers will take years to filter out of the hobby, as no one leaves over a single disliked change.

[@opaqued2039]

@@tabletopminions I've seen this line about "corporations only change if they think it'll make profit". No they don't. There is too much evidence to list that shows employees within the companies specifically stating how they will push a specific ideology with zero regard for profit, and the last decade has clearly demonstrated that alienating more than half of your potential customer base isn't profitable. Just a few examples of corporations that lost billions to push an ideology: D&D (really Hasbro as a whole), Star Wars, Star Trek, Indiana Jones, super hero comic books, Disney Marvel (really Disney as a whole), Dr. Who, Amazon Rings of Power, etc. In the case of hobbies (and really any form of entertainment), what you see are those companies increasing the costs of products in order to try to cover the losses and shrinking fan base.

[@wtfserpico]

@@tabletopminions There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

[@KDB1042]

I'll be honest, I had no idea what you were talking about dude for a good portion of the video, till the shoe dropped. So it's the same rage baiting engagement culture war lot on twitter again then? They'll move on to their next target soon enough. It'll be about video games again or comics or Star Wars. You're right though, foster your local community: make people feel welcome and call out shitty behaviour that make people feel uncomfortable. I didn't do this enough in the past and it slowly destroyed a local group. Thankfully the now biggest local store has no time for that nonsense and continues to go from strength to strength.

[@EmeryCalame]

"Make people feel welcome & call out shitty behavior" (essentially a structural corrollary of 'pee in the corner of the round room') will fall apart for you the moment someone deems your behavior shitty, and de-welcomes you from what you welcomed them to. You will suddenly realize what a tourist is as they weaponize your community policing against you arbitrarily despite you thinking you were angelic and welcoming. But bitter experience will teach you this soon enough.

[@Jez-Hunt]

@@EmeryCalame do you need a hug or something?

[@spydrmrphy1429]

​@EmeryCalame so are you suggesting when the shitty behavior is homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism, or discrimination by religion or politics we should not call it out? Should we just accept it and think of it as part of the community? Is that what you're suggesting?

[@opaqued2039]

@@spydrmrphy1429 This video is obviously a straw man argument that attempts to redefine the term "hobby tourist". Your comment illustrates the tendency of the diversity and inclusion crowd to call anyone that disagrees with story/lore changes, rule changes, shitty art, etc. an "ist" or a "phobe". To pretend that a certain ideology doesn't police hobbies and IPs (D&D, knitting, comic books, any corporate IP, etc.) is just disingenuous. There's just too much evidence at this point.

[@frostmagemarii]

@@spydrmrphy1429 If you are being dishonest, and trying to showcase exactly what he was talking about; then yes, it's exactly what he was suggesting. God.. listen to yourselves sometimes.

[@hillbillyinablimp]

lmao at the commenters outing themselves and proving you right. I've been called a hobby tourist a number of times. I've gotten invested enough in Battletech over the the past few years, bought hundreds of dollars of minis, painted a couple dozen mechs of my own, came up with *multiple* of my own merc companies, and wrote some halfway decent fanfic that got published in an annual fan anthology last month that saw a couple thousand downloads, which got me interviewed by *Sarna*, and yet I'm still a hobby tourist because I'm a transgender furry and that fanfic had two mechwarrior women falling in love. I've been called a tourist in the same breath that I've been called a degenerate who's trying to inject sex and kink into this bastion of stompy robot violence. It is truly a useless term wielded by the worst examples of our community and you are absolutely correct to call it out. Thank you for addressing this and being a good influence in this community. On my end I think I'll keep writing fiction, maybe submit something to Shrapnel in the future, and see about getting "hobby tourist" printed over the pocket of a button up in trans colors for me to wear while my Owens TSEMPs another Ebon Jag.

[@joshbecka6110]

I knew there was going to be a Vinny V joke as soon as I heard there is always someone that does more hobby than you.

[@franklee6746]

I like to think there's an Uncle Atom of philosophy who put out a KZbin video today called "Stating Your Personal Opinion as Fact Doesn't Make It a Fact: Why You Convince Literally No One".