Talking Rollback Netcode With Adam "Keits" Heart

[@Holdbacktoblock]

What do you think about rollback netcode? Should more developers use it in future games? Be on the look out for our full length documentary on the development of Killer Instinct early next year!

[@xmustiz1]

any game that comes without rollback from now on, i'm not buying it

[@Krystalchan2009]

Thanks for the interview; It would have been interesting if your brought up the idea of casters that try to retrofit rollback. For instance Melty Blood is played even to this day with CC Caster which gets the game in a rollback framework. GGXXAC+R was having it looked at but i think that fell through

[@Holdbacktoblock]

@@Krystalchan2009 It's actually something new to me that I considered doing more looking into, but I wanted to keep everything as streamlined as I could to not confuse people coming to the topic for the first time. I may look at these in a future video, though!

[@gocedimitroski]

I need to re-watch it again .

[@ranit28]

Rollback should be the standard in fighting games

[@DarkstarZenith]

You should try to get Japanese subtitles on this video. Every Japanese dev needs to see this.

[@Holdbacktoblock]

All of our videos are open to community translations! Anyone interested in translating our transcript to any language only has to click this link: kzbin.info_video?ref=share&v=1RI5scXYhK0

[@Mclucasrv]

People will buy their game anyway they dont need to see this.

[@AirLancer]

@@Mclucasrv It's almost like people want a product that functions well, and they don't really give two fucks if the devs make their money anyway because that's not what's important to them on the consumer side.

[@DuoMaxwellDS]

@@Mclucasrv It's like they are not changing their game so more people are buying it, right? The whole fucking reason that they are simplified the games are because they want more people to buy it, so they need to see this if they really want more sale.

[@RavensEagle]

@@Holdbacktoblock i doubt your average Fighting Game player actually knows Japanese or even then, has the motivation and time to do it. And with accurate translation. Even more so people, japanese even, who know Captions even exists or how it works. If even CC works on all devices.

[@GimR]

This is the high quality content that I love!

[@luckymanx2978]

GIMR!!!!

[@drkedug]

OMG MAN YOU ARE HERE, THANKS FOR ALL THE TECH VIDEOS ALL SHOW THEM TO ALL MY SMASH STUDENTS

[@YounesLayachi]

How the turn tables

[@Valon129]

Send this to arcsys. This is a matter of life or death.

[@YokoiL]

Translate it first ;)

[@Valon129]

@@YokoiL I am pretty sure they'll have people who understand english

[@YokoiL]

@@Valon129 the Japanese are just like the French when it comes to english even if they do they will act like they dont.

[@Valon129]

@@YokoiL Man come on I am french :( . You're not wrong tho I'll admit.

[@skillustrates]

ArcSys is well aware of their beloved community’s heated desire for the integration of GGPO’s rollback netcode into the upcoming Guilty Gear STRIVE. They’ve even already responded to your collective outcry... By saying ‘Ehh~ Don’t hold your breath.’ I’m paraphrasing but that’s basically what the bossman said.

[@gigaport]

Reminder that bad netcode sucks in Japan too. In Sajams discussion video on infilaments netcode article, he shows a video of two pro SFV players playing in an online tournament from different parts of Japan having a horrible stuttering match.

[@gogobmn]

This very much ties into the thing about poisoning the well at the end of the video. SF5 is like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to mention in these sort of higher-profile rollback netcode discussions (respect to Keits and Esteban for doing so here), but I think it needs to be said more that it doesn't represent rollback as a whole. In desync situations like you see in 5 (P1's game is stably ahead of P2's -> P2's experience is amazing, P1's becomes a rollback-fest), it's very possible that a delay-based solution /would/ have been better for Japan's godlike internet, and it's kind of uncomfortable to say that. Yeah, with good, stable pings below the frame delay, rollback and delay are essentially the same, but desync is something that by its nature can't affect delay-based netcode - they'll stutter for a moment and then go on as normal. This isn't the fault of rollback netcode as a whole, it's specifically a fault with SF5's implementation, one that was never fixed for 5, despite being gone in MvCI's implementation (hence the very reasonable "fix the netcode" calls for 5!). But, like it or not, SF5 is probably still the biggest name in fighting games in Japan, and Capcom went in on a rollback solution that (in Japan at least) performs demonstrably worse in practice than the cheaper, simpler, less CPU-heavy - see the Netherrealm GDC talk for how they had to massively improve the way MK used CPU cycles - solutions that are already in place. When Japan-centric developers see that, why would they want to gamble on something that, in their minds, isn't necessary? All this is really unfortunate, I would absolutely love to see rollback in Tekken and everything else. And having played SF4 online every so often since 5 came out, there's no way in hell I'd willingly go back to delay-based - in 2019 anything worse than an amazing connection feels horrific, and probably anyone complaining about 5 that says 4's netcode was better has just forgotten how bad it actually was with all but the best connections.

[@joshuaortiz5141]

Looks like the pandemic forced capcom off their asses to implement netcode now that everyone’s stuck in their house!

[@MagicalSamurai2]

Smash Bros Melee, let's go

[@starvalkyrie]

I love it "This problem was solved in 2007" Hey, Capcom. Hey. Did you hear that? 2007. Arcsys? Bandai? Anyone? Anyone? I know you're really proud of yourself over there but occasionally people outside japan come up with good tech solutions and it might be time to start paying attention.

[@SicklySeraph]

Keld Tundraking Skullgirls got you covered ;)

[@Y0y0Jester]

Fucking Japan, man

[@Wesmoen]

It's because of their "Not Invented here" business mentality. If it's not Japanese made, then it won't be implemented. Tony Cannon from GGPO spoke many times with Capcom and they were like " we look into it". GGPO is quite powerful, but it's a hard sell for Japanese developers.

[@Ehal256]

This problem was mostly solved back in 1996 with duke nukem 3d and quake world, and then was solved in 2001 with counter strike.

[@tokyobassist]

FGC Translated needs to subtitle this.

[@strtfghtr88]

We in the Punch Planet community have been trying to shine a light on the greatness of the netcode built into the game. I've personally played matches with people from Korea, Russia and in South America, (Im in the US, midwest) with much more playable connections than a "5-bar" connection in other games. Playing someone in the EU feels almost like offline, I'm not joking! Its the main reason why I've kept playing this game for over 2 years. Punch Planet is seriously underrated and has some of the best netcode I've ever played since Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike Online Edition. Thank you for making this video. I will share it and hope this spreads like wildfire throughout the FGC.

[@VillainViran]

I wish I liked it's look ;;

[@strtfghtr88]

@@VillainViran graphics go away after a while. But the gameplay is what makes you stay. And i gotta say for an indie fighting game in early access, its pretty polished.

[@drxhunter]

What? I played 3rd Strike OE on 360 long enough to say it has a bad netcode for sure! Played it for like a month or so and switched back to fightcade with real rollback!

[@williamcolon4070]

Mind shouting-out Omen of Sorrow Discord to everyone else?

[@PinupSticknerd]

Is is 'cooler' no. Is it easier 😅 Mos def. ✊ Add some sci-fi and time control backed in universal gimmick mechanic 👍

[@Lewdology]

I hope this video reaches the right eyes and ears. (and left ones too, as long as they are attached to the same head)

[@d4rkz3r011]

I really like how Keits broke down how rollback works and gave good examples of how it could possibly be implemented in fighting games. I really hope japanese developers at least try it like Capcom did

[@Shadow-gz2hg]

@@ukemozan SFV rollback was bad but MvC I netcode was good

[@kriscubero6778]

14:29 Paul's death yell is so fitting. Even I wouldn't understand why that happened.

[@darkphoenix8921]

Explained so well, everyone needs to see this

[@SuperArt7]

I'm saying...that was a really informative

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

I really hope that JAPAN DEVS , specially directors.... Watch videos like this

[@kogazor]

This is the most crystal-clear explanation I ever heard on this very interesting topic. 11:23 was a eurêka moment for me, because I already had a grasp of how it works but never realized rollbacks aren't ever displayed, only used for correcting the current state. Excellent stuff.

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

I thought I understand the concept of Rollback netcode since I heard about it a decade ago, but I didn't really, not until listening to Keits explain like a goddamn working professional I knew it would make matches FEEL better while being played, but I had no idea it would extend to lowering the minimum ping threshold for opponents and therefore make matchmaking faster. Holy crap. I'm following your channel now to see this KI doc. Definitely try and translate this video so Japan can have Rollback Keitsplained to them.

[@TheAkiraCast]

Thanks for putting this together HBTB and Keits! It was very educational. I've put out a tweet in JP calling for anyone who can potentially subtitle this video for the JP FGC, mine's not good enough. I'm tiny but I hope it helps!

[@eristhanewood]

You know i never even thought about how rollback netcode would affect the skill level of players you meet online this is a fantastic video

[@exaIgnus]

A big shout-out for adding the japanese subtitles.

[@BaneClandestine]

Send this to Oda and SNK right now, it's the only thing stopping Samurai Shodown from being "just" the best fighting game on the market, but a God tier entry...

[@williamcolon4070]

And now, Guilty Gear Strive is announced to have rollback! All I have to say to Arc System Works (and Japan in general) is “FINALLY!!”

[@olah547]

RollBACK is now on JAPANESE FIGHTING GAMES! -the rock.

[@lupin6741]

such an excellent video to explain rollback netcode to people who haven't heard of the concept especially now that melee has rollback netcode now

[@leppaman2719]

THANK YOU FOR THIS. Answered so many questions I have had about netcode.

[@mysticjuicer01]

watching this video always makes me feel good. keits explains the concepts and pros of rollback so well. great stuff!

[@easygoingdude9990]

Yaaaaas it's finally here! Thanks Esteban 😁🙏

[@vedasisme]

6:42 is key. It doesn't feel like common knowledge that rollback is just delay + extra features. The sooner devs start implementing rollback, the sooner the R&D cycle can come up with something to build upon it.

[@istemann]

He explains it so incredibly well, I love it.

[@cmysharingan]

First let me say that this video was fantastic, and that after hearing this explained by Lord Keits, and so many others lately, I'm really upset with where Japanese developers sit on this topic. Arcsys has employees actually saying that rollback doesn't fit Guilty Gear; what ? After this video it just makes them sound technically inept, because it has nothing to do with style. Its frustrating, because lately I've been struggling with how redundant it is to learn a combo I will never do online, or care about timing in a game that throws that all out the window when you jup into ranked; I primarily play MK11 now, because of this.

[@PenguinjitsuX]

Decoupling the game logic from the rendering was so smart, that makes perfect sense.

[@bunnybreaker]

It needs to have been standard a long time ago. Keits brings up good points about why devs (especially in Japan) haven't gone that route, but it sucks for the players with no local scenes.

[@kalega311]

"They're buying it anyway" is the key. Why I stopped by delay-based games. I no longer want to enable the Japanese devs to think it's ok to live in the dark ages.

[@williamcolon4070]

Fighting EX Layer is like the only game (besides SoulCalibur 6) that I’ll buy regardless of its delay netcode, because the game itself is a small community title, and it needs more promotion. Other than that, I’m playing rollback fighters from now on, and I mean the *GOOD* ones, not the half-baked ones like SF5, SFxT, SF 30th Anniversary Collection, and Samurai Shodown Neo Geo Collection, those are the worst offenders of rollback.

[@cookiesmcsalsa1281]

I heard EX Layer may be getting Rollback, so definitely support that

[@kalega311]

@@cookiesmcsalsa1281 Yeah, it already has it, afaik. I re-installed it the other day. =)

[@DemoniteBL]

It's the answer why Pokemon games, for example, suck as well.

[@vladalexeev8529]

Great thanx for this video! he explained stuff so well ! Esp. about differentiate logic and render when in stuff like Unity3D it is basically same - GameObject with colliders, physics etc. When we should just draw picture in memory and spit it out the old-fashion way, 60 times per second. I wanted to make a new kind of MUGEN , but understanding the effort to be put in it made me realize it will never be finished. This video made it clear at least to imagine how this stuff is done

[@LodanZark]

I love those VF machines on the back *-*

[@SicklySeraph]

I never realized how important roll back net code was till played online with other games like SFV and BlazBlue compared to skullgirls which is really really good

[@Rikzz95]

Rollback is awesome. I'm so grateful that Melee has it too now!

[@IAm-zo1bo]

ur not the only one

[@Brass_Heathen]

Alas I have only one like to give. I'm loving the fact that Rollback is FINALLY getting the press it deserves.

[@williamcolon4070]

Japan is starting to listen, let’s see if they’ll actually _do it._

[@IAm-zo1bo]

Melee has rollback 🦀

[@williamcolon4070]

I am Made by one dude, in _six months,_ can Nintendo say the same???

[@KhMaIBQ]

Thank you for this video, Esteban. It really helped me understand rollback netcode so I could implement it in my Mega Man fan game. The GDC talk by NRS helped a lot too!

[@Holdbacktoblock]

Glad to be of service!

[@ALiteralLamp]

When he explained Ryu’s fireball I just yelled “That’s how that happens!”

[@katsutama]

This can save Fighting Games and increase their popularity. Watch this, developers from Japan! Someone help and add Japanese subs with good translation.

[@ZanyWitch7]

14:29 Very fitting quote for the scenario.

[@williamcolon4070]

Arika is starting to take notes from NetherRealm on retrofitting rollback into their current game, FIGHTING EX LAYER. Here’s to hoping they perfect the tech real soon and we can get _real_ quality matches online and a higher number of players, and save the game from its underrated status! *LONG LIVE FEXL!*

[@Rabeye_]

Great video, thanks for breaking it down for the layman

[@dudevinci]

Good video someone needs to share it on reddit for more views

[@AirJuggle]

Maybe you?

[@dudevinci]

@@AirJuggle I don't have an account and I don't want to make one

[@Nutt_lemmings]

Free up vote farming

[@fernandorodriguezalvarez6545]

This video was truly well done and explanatory! Congrats!

[@KevbotSSBM]

excellent video. succinct, informative interview.

[@irvintang2751]

Came here cuz of sajam, subbed for the quality. This is awesome.

[@blancocd]

I've never even owned a fighting game but this was super interesting

[@dorkasaurus_rex]

Without Japanese subtitles this won't get heard by the people who need to hear it

[@SonicX]

Now have the results killer instict in evo 2020 online and outside were the "big fighting games" sfv, smash.. grablue f vs... Killer Instinct was a demonstration of how to make a fighting game choreographed and now returns as a bird fenix in evo 2020

[@aLr_boosh]

Dope video! Really helped me finally understand rollback and how its different than delay based. Boosh!

[@Auraspeed]

It’s good to see that ArcSys has finally come around

[@painbottv]

Amazing video.

[@KiKoSkullKID]

Just wonderful how adam keits have this vision and is correct, the delay just work for japan only.

[@jlinwinter]

Brilliant video! I learned a ton!

[@tasseiviews2947]

Wow, great explanation! I get it way better now.

[@CZARCALIFORNIA]

Great video!!! Learned a lot, thank you.

[@EveryGamerLife]

Roll back netcode should be mandatory for all fighting games. There is no reason not to use it. I've had matches against Japanese players at 4 in the morning in Skullgirls and it felt like I was sitting right next to them.

[@djAmored]

Every time I play KI, I wonder why I play any other fighting game online. It's just always fluid in it's netcode.

[@GatsuRage]

Fast forward a few months... and now we have Daisuke announcing they WILL be using rollback on strive! good times to be alive...

[@williamcolon4070]

I’ll keep holding my breath until we get another beta test for the game’s rollback. Wouldn’t want it to be a similar mess like SF5, now would we?

[@djAmored]

Appreciate the video bro. You did a good job.

[@cheezopath]

great interview. really clear, didn't dumb anything down (as it's really not too complex conceptually!)

[@itchyisvegeta]

19 people who work for Nintendo Online and Netherealm Studios, for the Switch version of Mortal Kombat 11, did not like this video.

[@destroyermaker]

This guy is a fucking hero. Thank you, sir!

[@yashdua1]

great vid!! glad i know what rollback means now. what’s the song starting at 6:20 btw?? rlly like the music choices

[@choskar784]

Guilty Gear Xrd Sign - Heavy Day

[@kufudokungfu]

This was so educational thanks for the upload

[@NurseLee]

Thank you!

[@winkoman3]

Thank you Woolie.

[@garfieldnate]

Software engineering in Japan is generally quite behind the rest of the world; they are generally a monolingual country, and the language of the software community is generally English, so they're kind of cut off in their own bubble when it comes to best practices.

[@aganosxvii5079]

I hope there will be a new ki soon

[@CaptainMyron]

this video needs japanese subtitles

[@FlavortownG]

why? everybody speaks English

[@hotdog5927]

good video very nice

[@AccelSternritter]

Very well explained, thank you for this

[@Gamsterjeff600]

Eventually JP devs will realize their poor netcode would actually kill some sales of their game.

[@shreeder4092]

Good watch!

[@derbezacesanchez3779]

Do ultra resolutions introduce a need for more and/or extra updated netcode. How about the factors of 75hz - 240hz refresh rates? and/or freesync or gsync.

[@skillustrates]

Inb4 “KI Wins Again”

[@fgc_Finch]

Supreme Victory

[@williamcolon4070]

FinchoMatic *PERFECT!*

[@MORGATH99]

can rollback net code be used in other type of games like MMOs or stuff like that ?

[@_Devil_Hunter_]

Very well detailed, netcode is so important.

[@Sorenno]

since there is a lot of "guessing" here while waiting for inputs etc. would this work for a Brawler like smash for example. were there are 4players. or would the artifacts go crazys in such an enviroment?

[@tackwardsfongjump1800]

Rollback has already been implemented into melee

[@ryann8348]

All of my free time goes to Killer Instinct

[@sweetyamtw]

learn alot from this, thanks

[@drudey6274]

Love this video! Hope some Japanese devs see it.

[@Ujaric]

Great idea

[@kaptenkladdkaka8769]

Great video. Hope SNK is listening (though I doubt it )

[@williamcolon4070]

Garou re-release has rollback now thanks to Code Mystics, so hopefully it’s newfound success will spark a lightbulb in SNK’s head - conservatism doesn’t always work, change is important in an ever-changing world

[@istemann]

It fucking boggles my mind that the Japanese still don't get this. Excellent video.

[@tanninarceo]

It's almost sad to see how possible it is to have good online matches and yet so many games dont

[@gu1_n969]

Man this pissed off cuz this devs Japanese insist in use delay netcode I'm big fan of SNK and all their games are garbage online This video has to reach the devs jp 'cuz it's the best for the fighting games

[@Valeriya_78]

Old video but it's very interesting, only now I understand many things. Nine challenges lost in succession on Street fighter V due to lag is one of the worst situations I've ever experienced in this game in just one day, not to mention all the other situations, screen freezes, hits that fail because it seems that no input has been sent, character freezes and when everything seems to unlock you're almost dead. Not at all acceptable in a competitive game, Killer Instinct has never given me any problems. Losing ranks in the leaderboards to something that has nothing to do with the user's skills is very very annoying. Capcom has never made any corrections to this problem and an old unofficial patch published on GitHub no longer works with the latest version of the game and would also disadvantage console players by increasing their lag even more. I'm really curious to understand what will happen in Street Fighter 6

[@NOODLESOUP101]

good stuff

[@DreamerADV]

God I wish I knew japanese. Where's Discovigilante when you need him?

[@timothyrodis5716]

@CapcomFighters please listen!!

[@silverhawk923]

I’m ready for Ki to return. I will buy the new Xbox for KI alone

[@mattb9664]

So with rollback netcode, to an extent you are occasionally fighting the assumptions and corrections made by the computer when the opponent's ping is high?

[@espurrseyes42]

Yes. The system assumes your opponent is doing whatever they were doing X amount of time/frames in the past, and corrects them, ideally with in a low enough X value to the point where the rollback isn't noticeable or not obnoxious to play in. At worst, the game is rolling back much further in the past, and you get teleporting Kens and Cody doing an EX Zonk, only for him to be halfway into a jump about to cross you up.

[@Rizzo91]

I will never again buy a fighting game that doesn't have rollback netcode after playing with it.

[@ITNoetic]

17:10 If rollback netcode wouldn't really work with the Guilty Gear system, then the Guilty Gear system wouldn't really work with my wallet.

[@jguerrero7033]

Are there any games with completely solid online matches? - Competitive play is best played in person -

[@brothersbogard]

awesome video SNK ARC SYSTEM WORKS Capcom NAMCO has to see this.

[@DoThingsYk]

This intro had me thinking my internet was Garbo🤣

[@shemarlosscott5345]

My top 6 fighting games 1 Mortal Kombat 2 Street Fighter 3 Tekken 4 Dead or Alive 5 Killer Instinct 6 King or Fighters

[@williamcolon4070]

Only two series from that list have the best netcode. And only one series has bad rollback.

[@jj-oo6oi]

So according to this vid up to 150ms would feel like playing offline?

[@ThiagoJaqueta]

Depends on the game and how much Delay the inputs have, but yes, at least for Killer Instintic, this is true.