Hoplite Combat! Experimenting With A System

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Corrugated Cavalier

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 61

@DF12612 9 ай бұрын

That's a new one, greek combat based upon sources, continue this course

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Will do! We'll continue to document

@jamierae5185 9 ай бұрын

I was looking at the pottery that had your athena guard on it and it seemed to me as though it was an overhand grip held high. There's are many recreations of the image that draw the hand the other way but on the original pot the palm is facing away from the body. Might be worth experimenting with!

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

I don't think it's away from the body. I've only found one depiction that is clearly palm out, but it certainly can be done!

@SixDeadZeroHEMA 9 ай бұрын

Very interesting and extremely innovative - great video!

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Thanks! We'll keep going for sure.

@CoffeeFiend1 9 ай бұрын

There probably were occasions on the battlefield where hoplites would have fought one-on-one, any formation can lose a guy and have them get isolated. That said hoplons are massive, they can be over 10kg and depending on the region/period those spears could be 9-footers! I wouldn't be at all surprised if when 2 isolated hoplites did meet each other, one of them if not both would simply try to 'guard shuffle' back to their own lines. Overhand strikes even with 7-footers against full sized shields are awkward as hell and guys can often go minutes without getting a hit on each other. Projection tempo on a proper hoplon would also be erratic as hell compared orientations used in formation, they'd be knackered pretty quick.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

I agree, especially in archaic period and before it may have broken down more/been more flexible. The shield size is definitely an issue here, but is something we're working on fixing. These spears are 7 feet but fairly light, but I know from experience that getting used to this is something you definitely can do!

@Theswordundrawn 9 ай бұрын

I'd love to see you do more of this, excellent work and very interesting to use artistic depictions as a foundation for a system. :)

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

We certainly will, and will document what we find!

@VideoMask93 8 ай бұрын

This looks fascinating! I'm going to draw on some of this in writing a fantasy novel, as the weaponry is inspired in some parts by the Classical and Iphikratian (if that's a term) era of Hellenic warfare. Obviously, as you've mentioned in other comments, these shields don't really represent the classical aspis, so would you say this more fits in with the later peltasts as made famous by Iphikrates and others?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 8 ай бұрын

Thank you! This size of shield (roughly) is definitely seen on lighter troop types, some cavalry, and some Italic peoples in various periods from Archaic to Hellenic, honestly. They're just not what a typical hoplite would be wielding.

@clementfleury1913 9 ай бұрын

That looks cool, posture and footwork.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Thank you! Some of the footwork may have become more necessary because of using a smaller shield, but I'm not sure.

@Piff_Boogley 9 ай бұрын

I would like to see more of this......when we going again? 🤣🤣

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Should definitely find a time!

@jasonjames9836 9 ай бұрын

Good stuff! Love the falcata ;)

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Thanks! Kopis/machaira in this case but yeah pretty much the same, haha. Both sword trainers we're using are a little mean so we're not going too hard with them.

@pjulphil 9 ай бұрын

Hi, nice to see some greek combat. 2 questions come to my mind : Isn't the shield small for an hóplon ? On wich period are you basing your styke? Archaic, Classic, Hellenistic? Or Olympic Hoplomatia?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comments! The shield is definitely small, that is something I plan to work on soon. We're going more for archaic/early classical, though we are looking at sources into thr Hellenistic as well.

@MortdeathMinis 6 ай бұрын

I think if the shields where bigger it would help with accuracy, those are almost buckler sized.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 6 ай бұрын

@MortdeathMinis yep, bigger shields are on the way. These are roughly rotella sized, which is a Renaissance Italian shield.

@henryc7548 8 ай бұрын

I've heard it argued convincingly that the overhand spear position shown on art is artistic and that the traditional spear grip was actually used. Have you tested which one works better?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 8 ай бұрын

Absolutely, I much prefer the overhand grip. Many hoplite reenactors would agree and have run tests of one group using one and one group the other. Overhand grip dominates. Cultures around the world use it, it's not artistoc convention.

@AliasAerius 9 ай бұрын

It's good to try all the styles and forms in the art they've left to try and recreate how they fought. However, using the smaller and lighter shield and spears changes how they work significantly. The shape of the shield and how it fitted in with your shoulder is an important aspect of fighting with the Aspis, and the Dory is balanced very differently from the spears you were using due to it's use of a back spike. Looks like you had a lot of fun though. Hope you can get the proper gear together and do this again.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Absolutely, gear is a limiting factor. We likely won't change the spears too much other than tryong to balance the weight of the spear tip with the rubber at the back, but an aspis is definitely in the plans.

@binbows2258 9 ай бұрын

nice sparring. cant wait to see more. Maybe some roman styles?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Thanks! Not going into Roman stuff yet but I don't doubt we'll take a look at some

@Anglo-NormanWarlord 4 ай бұрын

Who makes your rotellas?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 4 ай бұрын

@@Anglo-NormanWarlord those are just clear plastic "riot shields" from ebay and the like. I just spray painted the inside

@Nateh918 9 ай бұрын

Awesome

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

Glad you liked it!

@krystofmraz 8 ай бұрын

Nice, but shouldnt be the shields bigger?

@corrugatedcavalier5266 8 ай бұрын

Yes, absolutely. I'll be starting an aspis soon.

@krystofmraz 8 ай бұрын

@@corrugatedcavalier5266 nice, can't Wait to see IT.

@mnk9073 9 ай бұрын

Underhand is the clearly superior grip, it's more stable, it offers a wider range of options, it makes the thrusts a lot less predictable, the range is a good 1/3 longer, the overhang behind in the formation is a lot shorter and it's the only one actually feasible to use in the phalanx. Overhand is just nicer to depict on vases.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

That is absolutely not the case in my opinion and many other people who study combat in the phalanx

@AliasAerius 9 ай бұрын

Apparently both were used, and attacking someone with one could often leave them vulnerable to a friend attacking with the other. The underhand grip does have better biomechanics than the javelin grip though. It might be interesting to try the underhand grip with an overhead stance and see how it compares with the javelin grip.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

@@AliasAerius I disagree that the underhand grip has "better" biomechanics. Easier for untrained people? Sure. Better? Absolutely not.

@AliasAerius 9 ай бұрын

@@corrugatedcavalier5266 You can't extend fully with the javelin grip, your wrist locks up first. With your thumb forward, you can extend fully with a thrust, getting a bit more reach and better control with your strike. I can understand using the javelin grip with a lighter spear, as it far better for throwing, which can be very useful, even in a melee fight. But it does have it's limitations.

@corrugatedcavalier5266 9 ай бұрын

@AliasAerius as does underhand grip. Parrying with underhand grip is very difficult, you can only attack from the right side of your body, you have to noticably change angles to go after upper targets vs. lower targets, and you can't throw effectively. The range consideration isn't exactly true either, it all depends precisely how and where you hold the spear. Most people abandon it quickly because they are uncomfortable with it, but it's quite useful.