Hornby Class 4P Compound : Repair Request

A chap called Rian sent me this Hornby Class 4P Compound in LMS maroon livery as it was a non runner.
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[@rians_railway2362]

Thank you so much for fixing my loco Bill!! Truly honoured to have a loco saved by you and run on your brilliant layout. Can't wait to have the little gem back home 😁

[@Tauraco00]

Amazing, Bill is a miracle worker, I will have to force myself to learn how to do this

[@stephendavies6949]

That's a really nice looking loco. Well proportioned and eye-catching. Is it the one that's on display at the NRM, York?

[@Tauraco00]

Hi not sure but I have one on my layout, referring to the 4P LMS Compound

[@peterfinch5077]

​@@stephendavies6949yes midland compound 1000

[@stevesouthwick4211]

​@stephendavies6949 yes it is I remember seeing it at Leeds

[@philipdrake7385]

I agree with you about those smoke unit it's not worth the risk

[@dj_efk]

Good call to disable that smoke generator - the one on my Hornby 28xx distorted the boiler!

[@stephendavies6949]

"Never underestimate a clean up": words worthy of being printed on a T shirt. It looked a pretty good model given its age. It had the cab detail picked out and ran very close coupled. The livery popped too. The smoke units were liable to melting locos, as I found out to my cost. As you said, "you're better off using your imagination."

[@piers995]

A lovely looking loco. Nicely done. The current Railroad Midland 4P Compounds are lovely smooth quiet runners, but unfortunatly Hornby used a rather pinkish coloured plastic for the body of the version in Midland maroon and cut down greatly on the lining out. It just didn't look right so I went for the BR black version. I had wondered about finding an old tender powered one and seeing if I might swap out the chassis for a new engine motored one. Would seem a shame though.

[@David-cq2mz]

A really nice looking loco in maroon,the smoke generator reminded me of Mamod toy traction engines back in the early 70s….were advertised with kids playing with them…fire and fuel….i suspect that wouldn’t be allowed today. A comprehensive repair Bill,expertly carried out.

[@ausfoodgarden]

Oh, David what could possibly go wrong 🤣 Oh that's right! I set fire to the shed when I was 9 playing with one of those Mamod engines. The shed and I both survived though, and I found where the oldies had hidden the engine away😉

[@johnchadwick4222]

Mamod is still around and available, though it now uses solid fuel I believe. No different to SM32 or G scale live steam really, just a lot cheaper.

[@johnchadwick4222]

Old style smoke generators have been known to melt locos, a lot are supposed to be used all the time. The smoke is awful, not good for asthmatics.

[@oobill]

I still have my Mamod steam roller. Set myself on fire a few times with meths. You don't see the flames till it hurts! Great fun! I've often thought of trying to get it running again as you can still get parts.

[@GraemeKey-jw7id]

Mine is OK, you just have to keep the smoke unit filled with smoke oil otherwise it gets hot. Also got County of Bedford GWR. Excellent informative video as always.

[@keithkendall7143]

Great video Bill. Unlike the old Triang era locos with smoke which were loco driven and hence the motor and smoke unit both draw current all the time this only occurs if the tender is attached otherwise all current is drawn by the smoke unit so that is why it was getting burning hot! I remember the generic user instructions for all the 4-4-0 tender driven locos with smoke units had a warning not to apply power to the track unless the locomotive and tender are connected together. In my opinion Hornby should have made the loco and tender permanently coupled so this couldn't happen. When I am asked to service/repair these and the owner wants to keep the smoke effect I give a choice of two modifications. 1) Hard wire loco and tender together or 2) Re wire so loco picks up from one rail and the tender drive unit returns via the other rail so if not hooked together no current can flow so again smoke unit is off. Keith and the tender drive the other so that unless loco and tender are connected neither the smoke unit or motor will work.

[@ModelRailwayShed]

Another great video Bill, A joy to watch 👍

[@evercreechjunction81]

I really do enjoy your videos, love the progress that you have made on the new layout build. I to get a lot of enjoyment out of repairing locomotives & have been doing it on & off for a while, have learnt a lot from lots of modellers including yourself. I have collected a lot of equipment & have added to it recently including the ultrasonic cleaner, same one that you have,(I did have a cheap plastic one before). I too keep losing my mankey brush, I have several now. I was wondering if you could do a video on some of the equipment/tools that you use, there are some tools that I am after, that plastic spatula that you use is one of them,& that vice that you use to put worms back on,this would be a great help, thank you & all the best & happy modelling, Phil

[@SoRTs6233]

As a fellow restorer of locos, I always find your videos a joy to watch. I always learn something. I recall working on Triang Seuthe smoke units which were enclosed in a metal cases, great fun to watch but the smoke didn't last and it was a pain topping up. A common fault was an open circuit element (because it was always on!). Cheers, Jim L

[@marcdempsey5850]

Yet another great video; great detective work on the fault finding. Look forward to the Ringfeild motor video; so many models have used them in the years and yep they are difference. Many thanks again for a top video; can’t wait for a layout update. All best Marc from Leighton Buzzard

[@mikeking2539]

Not a great idea to have the smoke unit operating without the loco and tender been coupled together, as it can burn out the unit! I had one of these LMS 4P Compound locomotives, it was great fun, and I wish I still had it. I'm sure that it advised against applying power to the locomotive without the tender conected , in the instructions that came with this loco and the others in the range that had this type of smoke unit. They were all 4-4-0 tender drive locos, LMS, LNER, GWR, and SR. c1979 1980 ish in date! Sadly I sold a lot of my model trains when I was short of money, before getting back into the hobby.

[@timtownsend1171]

I occasionally come across the top clips broken on the plastic side of the motor housing. I've found that small zip ties, carefully inserted through the small slots where the clips once were, work a treat. You do, however, have to open up the holes on the plastic side a little bit to get the tie to fit through. And you do need to hold the end of the tie (the square bit that the tie slots through) up against the body of the motor as this ensures a tight fit. I also sometimes find the bottom clips break too but because the gears and wheels are that end, the casing seldom opens up. Hope this tip helps and keep those great videos coming!

[@oobill]

I drill one or two small holes through the plate and into the casing and screw the plate to the casing with M2 screws. Makes it easy to remove again for servicing.

[@timtownsend1171]

@@oobill I may well try that next time.

[@ianwatson2872]

Brilliant video Bill, totally agree with you about smoke generator, amazed a lot more body shells not melted

[@PaulinesPastimes]

You can't go wrong with that lovely livery. I agree with you about the smoke unit. Apart from the heat issue, who wants to fill their room with the smell of burning oil 🤧

[@donniblanco5239]

One of my fave models, I didn’t realise it had a smoke effect, I’ll have to check mine/disconnect. The Running action looks a treat, Great Job Yet Again 🙌🏻🙏🏻✨

[@astolatpere11]

Lovely loco in maroon. Very therapeutic to watch your vids. Thanks!

[@roberthocking9138]

Well done Bill, that runs really well now.

[@andrewduke1489]

Nice work

[@ausfoodgarden]

I have the same loco, smoke generator, and all. When I was servicing it I noticed the glowing smoke element too and immediately disconnected it. The smoke function is smelly and not very good anyway. A far cry from the current technology available. Nice job on the repair as always. Cheers!

[@philipdrake7385]

I do like your layout Bill it's really looking good

[@peternorris6438]

Another good repair never realised how hot the smoke units got may disconnect the couple of locos that have them fitted on

[@Tauraco00]

Greetings over there, I have the same Loco🎉 amazing, Bill you are really good, well done

[@stephenparrott3377]

Bill I had one of these years ago. There was an in-line resistor and the element was sat on a bed of cotton wool which prevented the element glowing red-hot. LOL

[@bernardshieldstysonfive1009]

Hi Bill brilliant video I agree with you about the smoke hope you’re wife is feeling better ? Keep up the great work and videos Bernard

[@gerardburton3741]

Nice repair job Bill. On all my Hornby locos with smoke units like you I removed them. They get far too hot and could possibly damage the body. I have a box full of them somewhere.

[@Hacksworth_Sidings]

I’ve got a School class with an identical smoke unit, yes, the element does get red hot, likewise with Triang’s elements in the synchro units, Triang’s Synchro units were encased in a metal block, and the Hornby seuthe units have heat shielding, I can understanding wanting them removed, though personally? I like them, adds a little more character to the model

[@rogeremberson6464]

WOW! Triang. That's going back a long time. In 1966 I bought a Triang "Battle of Britain" class loco "Sir Winston Churchill". It's got the synchro smoke generator and "Magnedhision", and boy could that pull a long rake of carriages, and never had an issue with the smoke generator. Back then it cost the princely sum of £5. I've still got it, but it's been in a box in the loft for many years.

[@Hacksworth_Sidings]

@@rogeremberson6464 I too have a Winston Churchill with Synchro! £15 from my local club in 2022! Lovely model, really need to run it more often…

[@numptypootis8012]

I've got a Schools class of the same sort of age and chassis with a smoke unit (retrofitted by me from another loco, soldered the wires to the terminals rather than the spade connectors and ran a wire from loco to tender to have reliable pickup) and it works just fine on either baby oil or deluxe materials smoke oil. I think you might have cranked the power up too high for it to be getting red hot like that but that's just an idea. Some are a bit naff and barely puff any smoke and some like in my Schools class run lovely once warmed up after a few laps around the track, quite like them for the novelty and makes me more enthusiastic to run them just to see the smoke working. Those particular units seem to puff better than Triang's syncro smoke system as they're a bit hit or miss for me but the only fault I find with these Hornby ones is that there is no lid to keep the oil inside the reservoir so if you upturn it for servicing and completely forgot the unit is in there with oil you'll have oil spilling everywhere which is such a messy waste.

[@dfishpool7052]

Hi OO Bill - thank you for yet another entertaining and instructive video. I was wondering if warming plastic components with clips up a bit with a hair drier might make the plastic just a bit more pliable and as a result making the clips less prone to breaking? Cheers.

[@attuslebeard5133]

I've always liked the 4P compound but haven't got around to getting one yet. I might treat myself to the newly announced Midland Railway train pack. On the subject of hot elements I was surprised to learn that the live steam A4 that Hornby produced some years ago had plastic bodies! I was told that they are an older moulding however as the newer ones couldn't handle the heat

[@ollychap1985]

It was a special plastic used for the live stream locos. I guess similar to what they use it for kitchen appliances like kettles and toasters

[@jameshatfield1194]

the engine has had a full Derby overhaul I dont like the smoke generators either i have a 28xx loco with a damaged chimney because of a smoke generator

[@adventuresinmodelrailroading]

The smoke generators generally burn out when you don't use fluid, so I feel the risk of heat damage is minimal. You're far more likely to heat damage a loco by leaving it under a car's windshield on a hot summer day.

[@coalbridgejunction7674]

Hi Bill another very informative video. I have a school class loco of the same configuration as the lms loco you are giving the once over I also removed the smoke unit as it got very hot even when the loco was not running good advice kind regards Martin

[@johndrew3202]

Yet more exploration of repairs Bill. is this the 1st time you've looked at the smoke generator? The earlier Triang/Hornby ones are metal and encased with a small hole allowing the smoke out under the funnel. They also need wadding inside to hold the oil secure. So the oil cannot spill and the heat off the element only heats the surrounding oil soaked wadding, so a lot safer than the one you showed. I suspect if the plastic tank you had was filled with wadding, it would also be safer. The oily smoke can cause problems as it falls on the track and the rolling stock, so not totally without faults!

[@oobill]

It's the first time I've dealt with one actually working. I've encountered a few of the old Triang metal cased ones. The Princess Elizabeth I worked on a while ago that the body was stuck to the chassis was one and I think it was the hear from the smoke unit that caused the body to stick onto the chassis.

[@philmbull]

Another great video. I have the same lms compound model which I have also disconnected the smoke unit as the body did get warm. I have a small tank engine which I could do with your knowledge on. What’s the best way to get in contact?

[@croydontramcabrides9767]

Never seen you re-magnetise a ringfield motor magnet. Is it not necessary as with other types of motor that you have done?

[@oobill]

Generally speaking a ring magnet shouldn't loose it's magnetism as it's effectively self keeping so there should be no need to.

[@EngelsNederfiele]

If it was, once you got it running drawing about 200 mA without the smoke box element connected, would you like to hazard a guess what it would have been with it connected? Anyone considering converting one of these models to DCC would have to buy one of the decoders capable of supplying high draw current values (£200 for a sound one, no sound files included) for the running of ancillary functions. Accurascale have fallen foul of high curent draw killing sound circuits because the impedance values of their speaker combinations being way too low. This smoke generator I suspect will draw a lot more current than either LED lights or the motor itself under full load.

[@_RandomPea]

Hi mate, looking forward to seeing more of the layout aswell. Looks great. Out of interest, did you have any issues with the track being front to back level? Its been a right issue for me causing connectivity issues 😢

[@oobill]

In one or two places yes. Just be careful how you fix the track down. Gluing track down with PVA rather than pinning can allow for a little flexibility to help keep things level.

[@mikeking2539]

Some 'daft' stuff like this makes me wonder if sometimes you get sent locos as a kind of 'test' to see if you can spot an issue!

[@oobill]

The dafter the better as far as I'm concerned :)

[@scottmcneil1150]

Do you like continental locos , Bill ?

[@scottmcneil1150]

can you put plastic in the sonic cleaner ? I'm going to purchase one soon, recommendations ?

[@oobill]

Depends on what cleaning solution you use. I use clock cleaning fluid which is very alkali and I don't put plastic things in. I must try though to see what happens....

[@AlanM1966]

What actually is that smoke oil made of? 🤔

[@GraemeKey-jw7id]

You can use Johnsons baby lotion.......was told that years ago and it works a treat with the old smoke units. Does not harm the plastic either.

[@AussiePom]

@@GraemeKey-jw7idYes I've heard that too and one bonus is that you get a nicer smell.

[@georgemartin408]

Absolutely do not use these smoke effect units. There are plenty of instances of melted / distorted body shells due to the heat used to vaporise the oil.

[@scottmcneil1150]

i dont like the smoke units, they stink !