Horus Heresy - Ranking Legions

[@tn00bz]

Everyone forgets that world eaters legion trait isn't just +1 attack on the charge... its also free chain axes. So their despoiler and assault marines are just a straight upgrade when compared to nightlords and blood angels. Of course, melee is their thing, but they can go tank heavy better than most legions while still having dudes that shred.

[@petercarlson8240]

Well, that explains what happened on Prospero. . .

[@meatlaser]

Hahha

[@markainsworth506]

Hi, I think I might be that Raven guard player! I think I'd probably push them up into B tier and theres a couple of reasons why. Like you said the special units are great. Mor Deythan are a really useful toolbox unit to either run close range shooting with volkite and/or melta or with snipers at bs5. Dark Furies for me have to be one of the best combat units in the game. 5 attacks each at rending 5+ and shred will murder everything. Finally Deliverers (don't forget them) are both tough and brutal if a bit pricy. Aside from the units the rules are a bit hit and miss, the advanced reaction is amazing (move 4" and shrouded 4+ for the rest of the phase), but the legion rules i.e: infiltrate and shrouded 6+ for infantry, re-roll 1s for assault marines and terminators and extra shrouded for bikes can be useful but usually most units will have something that is better than this already. Decapitation strike is also pretty good for not much limitation

[@LordGrantius]

Another commenter mentioned it but it bears repeating, assault units getting rerolls of 1 to wound is only useful if you're taking command squads with jump packs and power weapons. Dark Furies and Assault Squads don't need it, having shred anyway. It's a silly oversight on GWs part, effectively meaning these units do not even get a legion trait - so they have to be good on their own. I will own up to my bias - I soured on the XIX Legion when I discovered Alvarex Maun was no longer in the book.... or useful, given the changes to how deep strike works. I have to admit to additional antipathy for the promotion of Deliverers. I'm not saying units can't be good, but it's weird to me that they are so good, even though they represent the least Raven Guard attributes of the Raven Guard

[@manofthewest5395]

26:00 We have some of the worst units actually. Atramentar, Contekar, and Nakrid Thole are all awful. Terror Squads and Raptors are good on paper but totally overpriced. Mawdrym and Kheron Ophion are both interesting but their lack of artificer armour means they'll get mulched by anything with a power weapon. Curze is basically a glorified elite blender (something we desperately need because of how bad our termies are) because his low strength means he'll struggle against anything with T7 or higher. He's not awful but not great. The reason you use him are for his army buffs but that's not really flavorful to his character considering how much he hated his legion. The only unit we have that is really exceptional is Sevatar. He's not perfect and took a nerf from 1.0 but he's still great. The Jadhek rite is just bad. Terror Assault doesn't scale super well in high point games because of how restructive it is. The real strength of Night Lords is in their legion trait.

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

I agree with a lot, although I have found Night Raptors worth it and better than I thoguht. I totally agree though that they are like 5 points too much per person. The only time I have found terror assault lacking is against vehicle lists with Land Raiders. They just split fire on everything and light it up. I have herd Terror squads are OK, but I have really not tried them yet. Overall a fun legion and if you play to its strengths it can be super powerful. The legion Trait is just awesome. (Jason)

[@SacredGumby]

I play WB and agree 100%, they have a few gimmicks, the advance reaction can take the wind out of your opponents sails if played right. What kills them is the Gal Vorbak being AP3, 3+ at 55pts. They just die. Ashin Circle are the same, they are AP3 and are 3+. The lack of 2+, 2w models with almost no AP2 rs rough.

[@Smokey_Bluntz]

Take powerfist on gal vorbak

[@thecuttingboardforge8464]

Why am I not suprised Salamanders are last!😂 to be fair I’m doing ok with mine, but that’s in-spite of their legion trait. My suggestions to bump them up a little would be: In addition to the current legion trait, Melta, flamer, volkite & plasma should be -1 to the penetration role when shooting at Salamanders vehicles. Dragons breath flamers should be torrent 3” (this helps negate the backing away reaction & helps with not being able to put flamer templates over friendly models which is a pain if you’ve got a squad of flamers to shoot with) & Breaching 6+ Melta weapons could also be given the mastercrafted rule as part of the legion rule or as an upgrade for a few points And finally the Dragons breath cannon on the preds should not be strength 7 as it’s then not a defensive weapon, instead keep it S6 but make it breaching 5+

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

Good points!

[@benjaminbrenner745]

I'd like them to have better storm shields than the IF's too please :)

[@spencerdavis560]

@@benjaminbrenner745 exactly! We invented it… why is theirs better when they aren’t an artificer legion? I feel like if they just put breaching on the flamers we’d be better since we’d actually hurt other power armored stuff. And I think it should be we can’t be insta killed by flamer, melta, plasma and Volkite weapons

[@PeteOfDarkness]

Iron Warriors: they're specialised and not good in melee Iron Circle and Domnators: are we joke for you?

[@Vortexdr]

Raven Guard and EC seem a high skill army. Most loyalist legions are super simple to play and basically idiot proof and then support that with super broken units like suzerains. I think EC and Raven Gard though have a lot of potential if piloted by good players. Ultras should be S though...pretty simple point and click army with incredibly broken legion specific units.

[@tentimestay9181]

32:10 "off the chain/Suzerain" sounds like a lyric, if Will Smith wrote a rap about the Heresy

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

🤣

[@lesbianmorgoth652]

Personally my tier list is pretty different. Legions are ordered within the tiers from left to right with best to worst within the tier ranking. I'll explain positions after the list. S: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands A: Death Guard, Night Lords, Blood Angels, Iron Warriors, Space Wolves B: Alpha Legion, Dark Angels, White Scars, World Eaters, Emperor's Children C: Word Bearers, Sons of Horus D: Salamanders BROKEN: 1KSons, Raven Guard Starting with BROKEN, the rules for these two legions are simply broken and need to be rewritten. 1kSons like you noted just don't have a legion trait should they lose their sgt or fail an Ld check. They're the worst legion in the game bc of this, at least the Salamanders get to keep their trait all game lol. The Raven Guard on the other hand have way too much overlap and useless special rules such as granting rerolling 1s on units that already have shred or giving heavy support squads bonuses when charging. They're a great legion, especially when focused on Dark Furies, but they need to be rewritten to not have so many of their rules just not work. S tier are the best three legions in the game and also three of the most versatile; power in 30k 2.0 is all about versatility, much like a 3.5/pathfinder 1e tier list - the strongest aren't necessarily the one that does the most damage, the strongest is the legion that can do the most things at a high level, possibly invalidating other legions in their own niche. The Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and to a lesser extent Iron Hands are all very generic legions that can perform in all phases of the game with no drawbacks. UM have two of the best units in the game with Fulmentarus Terminators and Invictus Suzerans along with a great legion trait. The IF are just plain better at shooting then everyone else along with zero other downsides; so many common guns hitting on a 2+, the best advanced reaction in the game, Phalanx Warders and the Stone Gauntlet being amazing, great characters. IH are just so tough, great wargear, amazing terminators and a really good advanced reaction. A tier is similar, but the legions are more pigeon-holed and not quite as universal. This is the power level I believe all the legions should be at for a properly balanced game. DG are closest to joining S tier with their amazing legion trait that gives so much flexibility. Really requires your table to use the correct amount of terrain to be useful though. NL and SW are both very pigeon-holed into their rules; they are both very very good at that playstyle but suffer due to lacking a few options bc of what they need to be so good. BA and IW are just great all around, really good wargear and unique units, just super great all around. B tier is legions that are pretty OK. Nothing truly groundbreaking but nothing terrible either. Except the first legion, the AL. Impossible to rate on a tier list simply bc they're so based on player skill and what units you supplement with, so I put them dead in the middle at number 9. With a good enough player they're probably best in the game especially with their unique RoW which I personally really rate. DA are the average legion, they've got boosts to everything in a minor way depending on the chosen hexagrammaton. Plus their swords are just wild, completely amazing wargear those things are. WS are similar, they're just faster marines making them gemerically better at infantry focused combined arms. Good but nothing amazing, will require a good player to utilise them fully. EC and WE are both fine armies, cqc is just harder with how good shooting is due to reactions. WE are probably the scariest in the game when charging you and will kill you super hard, but unless built properly that charging obsession will be their downfall in many games. EC are similar but less pronounced with a bonus of their unique units being dogshit lol, they're so bad. C and D tier are tiers that include legions that need some help. WB have Gal Vorbak and that is about it. Absolutely amazing units, but a legion is more then just some possessed marines. SoH are just bad IF with their legion trait being mostly useless. Justaerin are pretty good but so very expensive and yeah they just need some buffs or price changes on their units. Salamanders are really fun, but heavy makes them so sad :( their special flamers should have -1 AP or something to make them really stand out and be good. Just need some buffs and they'll be great! Overall, 2.0 needs some pretty extensive balance changes to bring some of the legions in line with the others. The traitors in particular need more line added to their unique units so they don't need to rely on generic tacticals for objectives in every single list, whereas the loyalists probably need a few unit nerfs or price increases. And that's without getting into the garbage of non-marine rules which are - to put it lightly - abysmal and imho embarrassingly badly written purely for marine fanboy wankery. Anyway, thanks for the video! Clearly I very much enjoyed it lol.

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

Thanks for the Analyst! We love comments that initiate discussion. A lot of well though out reasons in there as well. Its always interesting to see people takes and what their experience has shown them. This weekend I saw the power of the Night lords and I am still pretty surprised by how killy they are. Like you thought I think they are pigeonholed into what they need to do to excel (Manipulate fear and LD mechanics). This might have bumped them up a Tier for me to be honest into A like you have them. -Jason

[@DirtyMardi]

Excellent list and arguments! This pretty much identical to mine.

[@devildogwargaming7594]

I agree with Raven Guard at c tier. They can do well when used by a good player, but most of their units don't even benefit from their legion traits, so it's the player doing well, despite the army being pretty mediocre.

[@treydudley7966]

Raven guard RoW that works alongside Solar Aux is really fun and powerful, but if you’re taking it then ipso facto you’re no longer a pure RG army.

[@wormss]

I’m kinda tired of people saying the guys with rending 5+ claws aren’t benefitting from the reroll to wound trait. They have 5+ rending claws bro.

[@LordGrantius]

Almost all the tier lists I've seen ignore primarchs, which is fair - I don't play tournaments, but if primarchs were banned from play, then I get it. But the primarchs really elevate some of the legions. Guilliman just pumps up the Logos Lectora, Sanguinius makes jump units amazing, Night Haunter giving the entire army Preysight. I am biased, owning seven primarchs for twelve legions I play, but some legions I think could really use the buffs their primarch provides to propel them up a grade

[@chrisgraham8368]

Hey lads….haven’t seen anything from you for a while!

[@aaronepstein9416]

EC seems to be a high ceiling, low floor legion.

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

Yeah I think so.

[@JudasBrennan]

... is that Jason Mullins? You're back!

[@meatlaser]

It's me dude!

[@rowarth12]

Goooooood

[@1337pwnxor]

I’d agree overall, especially with HoS being a solid B tier Legion.

[@DirtyMardi]

Are they? The legion trait doesn’t work in a disordered charge and the special units don’t beat the equivalent units from any other legions point for point. So what are you really left with? They are at best a C tier, bordering on D. In fact, Salamanders are probably better because they have better units, rites and warlord traits. Only TS are maybe worse, sadly.

[@taffeh]

As Jaghatai khan said: you know nothing about me yet I know everything about you 🤨

[@meatlaser]

Haha fair

[@benjaminbrenner745]

Well, we know that bikes are pretty underwhelming sir :)

[@taffeh]

@@benjaminbrenner745 I’ve not seen a problem with them, I’ve done quite well with them to the point I’ve moved away from chogorian brotherhood as I think it’s a little too good.

[@meatlaser]

@@taffeh This is the descussion I actually love to see tbh. The eddtion is pretty new and as I found out with the Nightlords this weekend things that can look weak on paper can be very strong in the game. The more we chat and compare notes the better :)

[@taffeh]

@@meatlaser Am sure Phil was there with his Scars running Sagyar Mazan and that RoW is potentialy flat out broken for VP denial to your opponent. There is a lot of layers which if you look at things with a 1.0 lense you may not pick up on things with the entire eco-system changing. Bit like why folk say bikes / jetbikes are utter naff however I've done really well with them. I think the panoptica documents came out way too soon and its come across to me as 'wishinglist' of what folk saw missing rather than let the game mature before those got released.

[@nicholasleon7819]

my main opponent is an imperial fist player and going from 1.0 to 2.0 i seethe with rage seeing how his already good rules were buffed in pretty much every respect especially as a BA player where my rules got worse in a lot of respect

[@americanshogun609]

So, I would argue Night Lords are a top 5, S tier army if you understand how to pilot the army AND if you have Curze in the list. Without Curze, I feel they drop to an A tier force. Curze almost plays perfectly to how I'd imagine him on the battlefield. His movement goes to 20 inches if he Runs. He has Hit and Run. He's not slowed down by dangerous terrain. Murderous Strike 4+ isn't the best Primarch melee option but it's decent. He gives the enitre army Prey Sight. His rule for potentially causing an entire army or almost most of an army to take a pinning test is almost too effective. This doesn't even touch on his Fear 3 or psychic ability. Basically, he disrupts your opponents entire gameplan if allowed to live. His buffs to your army work in tandem with the NL Terror Assault. His role becomes whatever you need him to do really. He's not going to be as an effective combat juggernaut like Russ, table length hit and run threat like the Khan, or a just an army buff like Roboute. However, he can play all of those roles competently if needed or lean into one of those roles if the situation calls for it. Most matches I've played with Curze have left my opponents reeling from the overall effect he has on battlefield control for the NL. Last thing I'll add is the usefulness of the Terror Squad. You really have to embrace the fact that they will be wiped and Infiltrate them with the intent of killing a particular enemy unit early on or use them as a distraction your opponent has to deal with early in the game or risk getting hammered by rotor cannons, vulkites and chainswords if you make a charge.

[@Orlunu]

RG's trait is very not great, but their rites/wargear etc are really solid, and most importanly as an AL player looking for Rewards I've come to the conclusion that RG special units are basically all better than any other non-RG infantry.

[@meatlaser]

The special units are some of the best

[@benjaminbrenner745]

Interesting! Thank you!

[@dariostabletopbastelecke4846]

Thank you!

[@cerrilove700]

Salamanders did have the best Terminator unit in the game. Now all other Legion terms are dragged up, they're good, but not head and shoulders above Ultras are just great. The fact they're unique units are Line without needing any ROW or HQ shenanigans gives them a massive shot in the arm A low C sounds about right for Word Bearers. Vorbak hit like a truck, the Mhara Gal is a Dread eating machine, Warpfire is very good and the Dark Brethern ROW is potent. But the Ashen Circle are only WS4, we are the only Legion that doesn't have a named Terminator unit (Raven Guard were the only other, but they got one in Exemplary), Vorbak are only AP3 and have no Invuln so on bad dice can bounce off other elites, LotSS ROW is terrible, overall our Legion trait is proper weak (not going below Ld 6 means it only comes into effect if you lose combat badly and you're still likely to fail it) and we're one of the only Legions that the Legion trait doesn't affect vehicles in anyway. When we eventually get Deamon rules, things might change given the built in synergy that WB have with deamons which will be largely unique

[@PointyPaints]

Salamanders are not D tier, their legion trait is solid, most people run melta and volkite, so when you shoot volkite at marines you wound on 3+ but for a salamander its a 4+, another example, a melta gun needs to roll 6+ on 2D6 to glance a spartan in the front armour, with a flare shield its a 7+, with the salamander trait, you are not on 8+ to glance and a 9+ to pen! Yes its not busted like other legions but its really solid. they also have some of the best units in the game and wargear options, drake scale shields increasing the inv by 1, meaning even our standard terminators can have either a 3++ or 4++ depending on which version we bring. Pyroclasts are so dam good. We even have a solid Inductii unit, in fact one of the best. The Salamanders are not just about flamers, we also like melta plus we have Vulkan who gives the legion army wide Stubborn! Salamanders are a solid B tier due to their legion trait effecting the dice not the charatristic, which is better

[@jellydamgood]

They are a short range shooting legion that is slow, and aren't super good at melee. In a game dominated by long range shooting and reactions, they are in a bad spot. And not everyone takes melta, in fact more people will take lascannons over melta because it's plain better, it has longer range, higher strength, can sunder. And you have no extra defense vs them. Volkite point is fair enough, but it's enough of a deal its still 4+ to wound just like a bolter. Having one of the toughest terminators doesn't solve the innate weaknessee of the legion and they have multiple. 😢

[@m4tthog4n]

You guys obviously havent come across a Blood Angels player that has leaned heavily into the Day of Revelation rite of war. Not much you can do against 3 close combat Dreads and multiple squads of 10 Dawnbreakers (Initiative 5, rending 5+) charging you turn 2.

[@meatlaser]

I have heard tell of this but never seen it in the wild. Still sort of points to be again just how good they special units are.

[@meatlaser]

So I played Night Lords this weekend and tried Deep Strike Assault, I see what you are talking about now. The bonus I have seen with NL is that, its night, you are scared and they cause fear. So they land and people have to take a -2 pinning check, which was HUGE. Deep strike assault thoguh looks VERY STRONG now if you can deal with the augry scaners.

[@razalfraz6618]

I’m an iron warriors player I’ve got a buddy who does that list you described and christ I have to stack intercepter and terminators just to be able to wither that meaty turn 2 assault it’s really rough man

[@Kili121]

😙 👌 perfection

[@hlylght3087]

White Scars are way too low! An all infantry army is has army wide 5+ FNP, Fearless on the combat they charge and are not worth ANY kill points in any mission. This includes slay the warlord. It's absolute insanity. Bikes in general are bad in this edition... unless they all have line. MSU Sky-hunters are troops w/line, kept cheap, can still have 3 heavy Volkite, floating around, just taking objectives. Put two units of 3 on an objective, let people make decisions. Bolters won't kill a 3 man squad outright, 2 wounds kinda stops that. Sure they die easy to Melta/Las, but go ahead and shoot that 10 man Las squad at 3 dudes, sick bro, there's another squad there after. The Khan is the only Primarch that can get FNP, on a bike, in a squad with a Apothecary. Khan and Qin Xa both just decide when reserves enter, no roll. Golden Keshig, in general/on average, hide behind a wall and instant kill the best unit in the game (a Contemptor). I'd close to argue that their special reaction is the best in the game. You literally can't move with in 12, or I'll just fly out and have all the objectives, especially in ChoBro when hover bikes are Line. Ebon Keshig suck, we can't really help that, But Kyzagan Assault Speeders are like, what, 100 or 105 for a toughness 7 platform that shoots 10-12 rending shots, half with twin-linked? +1 movement army wide means +1 to charge as well, since it puts all their Infantry into the +1 to charge range band. Idk guys, I know this was 4 months ago, are you feeling any better about them now?

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

I like them a bit better, still not seem them do much in events. I think you have a bunch of very good points. I still am not that impressed with the Khan to be honest although I love the mini. I just think hes a bit underwhelming. I think, like you are pointing out their strengths are in a lot of bits that work together to form a strong whole. The ROW where they re not worth any kill points is good but its not going to help you in any objective game. Lots of events will have just 1 KP mission or a combo mission with both KP and objectives. The +1 to charge is cool and good, it just feels a bit lackluster to the SW run and charge or the WE +2 to charge. Overall, like you have said, their rules are seeming to be a greater sum of their parts. Its amost like they have been underestmated. :D Overall I think they are at least a B now but could be an A. I still dont think they are in S land. I I just have to see them on the table more. We have plans to redo this in a few months and change it up, I think it will be pretty interesting to see what changes from what I initally though when we started this eddition. (JASON)

[@notare]

Salamanders legion trait is so bad. If your opponent takes lascannons instead of melta (bc its just better) and decides not to pay more for volkite then the -1 to be wounded is completely worthless that game (which is most games). You're left with "It Will Not Die 6+". IWND6+ is worthless. If you don't know how this terrible mechanic works, its rhino-repair. It is worth maybe 2-3 wounds back, over the course of a game. So while other legions get to build around their trait and get use from it, Salamanders can at best build to use their trait 1/6 the time. But it is so weak why bother? GW really failed hard on this one.

[@lostlegionspodcast3526]

Agreed!