How a Doctor Who Serial was Shaped by Jack the Ripper - Talons of Weng-Chiang Analysed

Not for the faint of heart. Viewer discretion is advised.
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Sorry Dalek fans, feel free to sit this one out... This episode we explore one of Doctor Who's darkest serials. As if The Talons of Weng Chiang didn't cause enough of a stir already, here we delve into the true crime which helped spawn this uncomfortable adventure. From character names to the killer's modus operandi, Talons is a homage to one of the most brutal series of crimes London ever saw.

[@johna5635]

I'd never noticed while watching all those Dalek videos how well-suited this style of commentary is to telling macabre tales!

[@originaluddite]

For me it's just classic, sober documentary presentation from before it turned tabloid at the hands of cable TV.

[@pianoman8642]

Hmmm this guy sounds like he's from the Wirral. I'd prefer a posher voice like Peter Cushing if I want to be terrified :-)

[@vultan2000]

My parents were working at St Crispin’s hospital, Northampton, when the mortuary scenes for this story were filmed there. I’ve got a couple of very grainy photos of a bbc camera in a doorway and a fancy dress competition that was attended by some of the cast. Sadly it’s so small you can’t see who they are! The theatre scenes were also filmed in Northampton, at the Theatre Royal. And of course future Doctor Matt Smith was born and brought up in Northampton.

[@cindydott452]

I love how you can catch a glimpse of an electric outlet covered with white tape so it blends in with the white tiles!

[@marquonuk]

What's interesting about this part of Tom's era (in particular) is how many different, but compatible, story influences were tidily weaved into some of the stories by writers. Another one is Planet of Evil, which contains obvious elements of the film Forbidden Planet, TV's Star Trek, and Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde. I don't mind when Doctor Who shows its workings in this way, as the resulting richness gives it far more depth than some other stories.

[@HampshireVideo]

Dalek 63-88 has its own “Licence to Kill” moment and visits the dark side. Love it. Great video again guys.

[@proluxelectronics7419]

I kept expecting to see the Phantom raspberry blower 🤣🤣

[@Last.Man.Standing]

In Silver Nemesis, something bad happens every 25 years: 1988-Cybermen; 1963-JFK 1938-WW2 brewing; 1913-WW1 brewing... (1888- Jack the Ripper?)

[@JTScottOfficial]

2003?

[@robertgould1345]

​@@JTScottOfficialshe went away after 1988.

[@Last.Man.Standing]

​​​​@@JTScottOfficialThe nemesis statue was no longer orbiting by 2003 so it was good news: The announcement Doctor Who was coming back! 🎉

[@themomentalist]

The first time I watched SN was on transmission was as a 10 y/o DW fan. Back then ‘1963’ meant more to me as ‘the year DW started’ than ‘JFK assassination’, so when they had this conversation and mentioned 1963 I genuinely remember thinking ‘What? That’s the best year ever! How can that be bad?’ 🤦‍♂️

[@colinhughes2246]

I honestly thought your two-parter on Daleks Invasion Earth: 2150AD would never be equalled, having watched it dozens of times and loving every moment. This one though is up there. An excellent and fascinating documentary. Thank you!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you for your support!

[@davidtanycoed]

Hinchcliffe said in an interview, Holmes had initially written Greel as the Master, but Hinchcliffe was against the idea of the Master returning so soon and consequently asked Holmes to change the character

[@papalaz4444244]

I think this might be a rare mistake from Hinchcliffe. The decayed Master had escaped Gallifrey in The Deadly Assassin and this story would have continued that arc. The Master hypnotising Li H'sen Chang etc all fits nicely.

[@davidtanycoed]

@@papalaz4444244 Yes I agree, I got the impression he regrets his decision now. It's so perfect and I wish I never knew heard him say it. The interview with him I saw on the Season 14 Blu Ray Collection - fantastic interview if you have not seen it

[@papalaz4444244]

@@davidtanycoed I think he says it in a WhoTalk commentary as well :/

[@123ericthehalfabee]

This is a fascinating video. The writing is just superb. You could branch out into macabre history and make your millions. Very impressive ❤

[@mastterby]

Come for the daleks, stay for this! Really enjoyed this!

[@martinevans9757]

Nightmare fuel! But that's what one should expect from so many Who serials from this era. Fantastic presentation, great work framing Talons in the brutal historical reality which was so much of its inspiration. Thank you!

[@originaluddite]

Speaking of nightmare fuel, even though the serial removed gruesome 'ripping' murder, I feel that the life-draining cabinet was pretty damned creepy.

[@Fire_Score_Maximum]

This shot at 6:21 feels and looks as convincing as the streets of Victorian-era London in the days before digital matte paintings and CGI and even they aren’t be able to top on-location filming. Watching Lee La sneaking around gets me thinking of what other companions, both past and present, would do in her situation, along with thinking about how much the streets of London have changed from the 19th century to the mid-20th century. It's like, “Wow, kinda hard to believe the story’s events are 70-80 years before Liz, Jo, Lethbridge Stewart, Harry, and Sarah’s time.

[@DarthPerkins]

I'm very pleased to be able to add a little footnote to this, my favourite Doctor Who story. It's the story that started a rumour that the Doctor was, shall we say, a fan of much younger women? I heard this rumour for some time before the novelisation cleared it up. The Doctor actually says "I'm rather fond of Little Tich" referring to the Music Hall comedian...on the first showing it was misheard by some as "I'm rather fond of little tits".

[@rayvenkman2087]

That or the bird species.

[@DarthPerkins]

@@rayvenkman2087 Ornithology is the only thing NOT in this story.

[@mistymisterwistyjones9668]

Terrific so far. Had Peter Sutcliffe been dubbed 'the Yorkshire Ripper' at the time Talons was recorded?

[@lesigh1749]

Difficult to say for sure, but very likely as he had killed his third victim in early February and this story went out on the 26, I imagine it was in the news during recording.

[@marquonuk]

Good question. I've just checked and his murderous serial run started in 1975, but I couldn't see a clear indication when he was actually called that name by the press.

[@Ignorance_was_Strength]

Great question. 👍

[@Fire_Score_Maximum]

I have been rewatching this video for like 13 times since release. I really appreciate your narration, it is a really great fit for True Crime and Online Horror Stories.

[@navalenigma]

Your script writing, delivery and production quality are just amazing great job, very enjoyable to watch.

[@Dalek6388]

Wow, thank you!

[@willmfrank]

Fun fact: Frank Finlay portrayed Inspector Lestrade in two "Sherlock Holmes versus Jack the Ripper" movies: "A Study in Terror" with John Neville as Holmes, and "Murder by Decree," with Holmes played by Christopher Plummer.

[@gregsmith7949]

I consider "Talons" as Robert Holmes' Magnum Opus. The most perfect Who in every way: Story, script, setting, casting, etc. Jago and Litefoot were so memorable that they spawned a series of radio dramas. This would be Hinchcliff's last story at the helm, and he along with Holmes, pulled out all the stops and made a masterpiece.

[@jd4925]

You even got a Dalek reference in.

[@austinblack7991]

They need to make a actual doctor who episode set during Jack the Ripper’s killing spree

[@MuchWhittering]

15:05 Forget Jack the Ripper, Robert Holmes staring right into my soul is the real terror.

[@enigmagenesis7341]

The Vinheteiro of the world of Doctor Who

[@rayvenkman2087]

“If you displease me, I’m make a villain out of ya in me scripts.”

[@oscarl.ramirez7355]

Mr. Bakers run as DW is one of my Favorite era's. When it came back back it gave me and my Niece something we could talk about.

[@Stuart_Cox1969]

Nice one, I enjoyed that, thank you all.

[@kayb9979]

The name "Jack" might well have been inspired by the "Spring Heeled Jack" stories that were circulating not very long before the Ripper. He was able to appear and disappear with almost supernatural ability. I apologize if this was mentioned. if it was, I missed it.

[@christopherlockery9629]

Spring Heeled Jack was once in a DWM comic strip back in the day. Happy Times and Places

[@TheDefiniteArticle_]

I subscribed for the dalek trivia but this is now my favourite episode of yours!

[@freezetheatlantic]

Loved the Talons location video and this is a great follow up. More of this Pixley level content please!

[@gfunkin3d]

This has been one of the best videos concerning Doctor Who I have ever had the pleasure of watching. Brilliantly presented and thoroughly interesting. Also bonus points for show the Resurrection of the Daleks location in the Jack the Ripper movie!! Loved this video!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@magnusgreel275]

This is really well-produced and written!

[@TheWatcherOnWho]

A truly excellent video with a great level of detail. Love how you set the mood and feel with not only the formation of your script but choice of music and style of editing. Thoroughly thought through and excellently executed. Well Done!!!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you very much!

[@marquonuk]

Very enjoyable essay. Thanks. :-)

[@Lumibear.]

SO good, and lovely atmosphere you’ve captured there, glad I used my earbuds, cheers.

[@enigmagenesis7341]

This was a most excellent, interesting and most importantly original video. Top marks!👍👏

[@JoeLewallen67]

Great analysis of one of my favorite Classic stories. Very interesting.

[@lozzauk]

Really good Gav love it. Entertaining and informative, thank you

[@jezcartner4104]

One of the best stories of classic who. Great video

[@KevinJonDavies]

Quality work, as ever. Thank you. (I had family in Northampton when 'Talons of Greel' was filmed there and they sent me a cutting from the local paper about the shoot. Wish I still had the clipping.)

[@smorris12]

What a lovely video. Entertaining, engaging and clever.

[@andyhackett6027]

Fascinating watch....love the Dalek stuff obviously, but more like this please!!

[@ianfraser9880]

Superb video. Combined 2 of my main interests. Thanks for the hard work

[@DanWindibank]

Just hopping in to say that this has quickly become one of my absolute favourite channels! I’ve very quickly been watching through your back-catalogue of wonderful Dalek content and cannot wait for more! Keep up the absolutely fantastic work!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you and we hope you enjoy them all!

[@frangrock]

Another Fantastic Video! 🎩

[@Dalek6388]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Great vid, a really enjoyavle watch I especially liked you tracking the growth of those pop culture elements over the decades

[@beedubs230]

Absolutely brilliant insights. Your best video yet!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@reviewsbyelaine4902]

Another really enjoyable episode.

[@davidfaltskog4970]

Spring Heeled Jack was Jack The Ripper... Or maybe not.

[@alexporeba3607]

Good editing Dalek 6388 😉

[@ThomCurley]

Wow. Superb work, as usual. I had no idea about so much of this. Excellent research. I’m always amazed how many times Robert Holmes referenced The Phantom Of The Opera, whether The Master in Deadly, Greel in this or Sharaz Jek in Caves.

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@I_Don_t_want_a_handle]

IIRC James Herbert's The Rats was published around that time, maybe they got the rats from there?

[@WhatHandlesAreAvailable]

This is such a brilliant video

[@RichArd-vc5jp]

Big Finish's He Jests at Scars reveals The Rippers identity: Walter Sickert as mooted in Patricia Cornwalls book 'Portrait ofa Killer'

[@TheRunningLeopard]

Ah, a video essay on the doctor who episode I have fallen asleep to the most. Bless an over 2 hrs long vhs tape.

[@thatcedric]

Brilliant!

[@adamhickey396]

If anyone wants to read three really good books on Jack the Ripper, then first I could recommend 'The Complete History of Jack the Ripper" by Philip Sugden, which will give you the necessary details and background to the case, and then finally I'd recommend two books by the same author, The Bank Holiday Murders and Ripper Confidential, both by Tom Wescott. The Bank Holiday Murders, in particular, is perhaps the best book written about the Ripper, particularly the early murders, and comes to a rather novel, yet believable conclusions as to who, or whom, the Ripper may well have been, a theory that I fully agree upon.

[@adamhickey396]

The Bank Holiday Murders will also provide some rather important and insightful information into William Thick's role in the Ripper murders....

[@nykad21]

This is cracking. I had it on as I worked on my laptop, but stopped and focused on the video as it was so engaging. I really enjoyed it and I hope you continue to make more like this!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@robertmcghintheorca49]

Seems that "Doctor Who" and the macabre is your new bread and butter. If there are any Dalek stories (as in stories around the props or behind the scenes info) that are dark and unnerving, I'd love to hear them. Also, artists like Kevin MacLeod and Myuu are great if you need horror music.

[@owenrichards1418]

Wow, this is a step up for the production crew!

[@nazgul9709]

Brilliant 🤘

[@atherstone55]

Love it when I see a new video announced on the best channel on KZbin

[@adrianschannel5643]

It has always fascinated me the litany and filmic roots of classic Doctor Who stories some of our favorite ones are at best homages and at worse rip off of the originals. You could do a whole series on them. You could start wit the second series The Daleks which is an adaptation of HG Wells the time machine with the Daleks being the mutated Morlocks confined to their subterranean lair and the Tharls being the Eloi. However a little known fact is that the time machine was inspired by The Princess and the Goblin 1872 by George MacDonald. Wherein a princess is stolen by a race of miners, humans who have mutated to adapt to their subterranean mountain home, these goblins are small and have big eyes and cannot come out in the day time. The male protagonist must brave their lair and rescue the princess. This same story seems to have inspired the goblin infested mountain in the hobbit. So not only inspiring the greatest sci-fi book author of all time, but also inspired the greatest fantasy author of all time. Each writing their own take on the same tale like Tony would do 90 years later. Next would likely be Dalek Invasion of Earth Terry Nation doing HG Wells again but with Daleks. It's not quite so overt. The Abominable Snowmen - borrows heavily from the 1957 Nigel Kneale film of the same name with Peter Cushing. Kneale hated Doctor Who for ripping off his stuff, and in the 7th season it became so overt. There was I believe an edict to make the show more like Quatermass. We begin with the Autons which very closely follows the plot of Quatermass 2, in fact the plot of spearhead from space makes more sense, when you realise that like the pods in Q2, the Auton spheres must have also mentally influenced whoever found them likewise compelling them to collect them together. Q2 itself appears to be a retelling of the invasion of the body snatchers - or taken from the same popular science article that theorised life traveling through space as a seed, the space seed hypothesis. We have the Silurians which is a reworking of Quatermass and the pit, it has elements such as racial memory and a through-line the the "Aliens" bred and created humans in prehistory. We have the Quatermass Experiment with Ambassadors of Death. Of season seven only the last story Inferno is not a Quatermass rehash, though it does have elements of the film X the unknown. zombie movies and elements of 1984 in the parallel earth. Hammer wanted to attach the name of Quatermass to X the unknown, but Kneale refused. We have the Demons - the Devil Rides out and other such films. Robot - King Kong. Pyramids of Mars - the Mummy. Seeds of Death - The Thing - in turn appears inspired by in the mountains of Madness by HP Lovecraft (Which mentions Krynoids). The Brain of Morbius - Frankenstein. Genesis of the Daleks - last days of Hitter in his bunker. We have the Greek myths. The Myth Makers - the siege of Troy also Cassia and Troilus by Shakespeare. Horns Of Nimon - the Minotaur. Underworld - Jason and the Argonauts. There must be many, many more but those are the obvious ones I spotted. There are even new series examples. Dalek - the audio Jubilee. It would be nice to contrast the two. Family of Blood was a retelling I believe. We are about to have the Star Beast from Doctor Who Weekly. Lots of parallel lines.

[@suddenlyfrogs1906]

There certainly are a lot of suspects for Jolly Jack. The only one that stuck in my head recently, who had Syphillis and would have been going mad literally that half of 1888, and had keys to workhouses so his own private labyrinth to get him about, ,was a man named Jacob Levy. Professional Profilers have come to the same conclusion, ok there's still debate and Mr. Levy is hardly a popular opinion but he fitted every bit of evidence whereas most of the others have gaping logic holes in them. Weng Chiang is definitely among my all time favourite episodes.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Excellent essay, any chance of telling us who did the superb music? Thanks.

[@Dalek6388]

Yes it’s all by the brilliant youtube.com/@brassbandit?si=XmtEzTZhYcg1TC-4

[@chrissenior9027]

On a point of pedantry, Doyle doesn’t actually specify a deerstalker as Holmes’ headgear - just a close-fitting cloth cap. It was Sydney Paget , the illustrator of the story that interpreted that as a deerstalker. Great video though!

[@cindydott452]

One story mentioned a deerstalker. Holmes wore it on the train heading out to the country. I forgot the exact story, but being a gentleman, Holmes wore a topper while in the city (When not in disguise!)

[@archibaldchuff3557]

I’ve never seen that photo of Robert Holmes sat at his desk before. Lovely.

[@eonetim]

This is your Magnificent Octopus 👏

[@Dalek6388]

😂

[@originaluddite]

It's quite difficult for me to see Barbara Windsor (1:50) in a role and at the same time accept I'm watching a thriller. :)

[@jb888888888]

13:32 That's the can-can not a polka.

[@mathieuleader8601]

this was a fun filled romp

[@android65mar]

interesting cutaways- are you filming historical documentaries now? Good production values if you are!

[@akshaytrayner1960]

Awesome

[@djdefk2]

Just thought I’d add my thoughts/views on the JTR case. First of all I like how you’ve cut between scenes of DW and Barlow & Watts which really added to an already eerie mystery. However the myth about JTR being a medical person was well founded; Dr Phillips metropolitan police coroner confirmed what Dr Llewelyn the Whitechapel coroner said about the culprit having some anatomical knowledge as in the first case with Mary Ann “polly” Nichols her uterus was removed without any damage to the viscera he then mutated the poor girl and vacated the location within 14 minutes in the dark mind you. Anne Chapman was ‘done’ in the same way but this time he removed not just the uterus without damage to the viscera but the intestines were dumped over the right shoulder and the kidney removed by cutting away the spleen the pancreas and the fatty tissue covering the kidney. And to top it off had time to mutilated her face and place her things: a comb two clay pipes and a handkerchief neatly by her right foot again in complete darkness and all within 14 minutes. Case in point both Nichols and Chapman were both clutching a bag of cashew nuts very expensive back then as they are today for two women who couldn’t afford the two pennies it cost for lodging. Anyway the first description of the suspect was by a lady resident (forgot her name) at Bucks Row. Annie Chapman was seen talking to a gentleman who was dressed “genteelly” so not exactly shabby but not completely gentlemanly he was 5.7 to 5.8 as you say and aged between 35-40 with “a dark complexion” but carotene moustache with a peaked or “Billy” type hat However in Catherine Eddowes’ case the description given by the PC on duty in Mitre Square gave the description that the person seen talking to her moments before her death was between 25 - 30 years of age, 5.8 with a peeked or deerstalker type hat a “two tier” coat clean shaven with a moustache. My point here is that descriptions vary from victim to victim almost as if there could have been two people or two different people should I say. And descriptions of dress vary too but overall he doesn’t sound too shabby. I think a lot of mythos around a top hat cape wearing murderer also comes from the fact that the suspect wore items of clothing like a two tier coat which would be worn by someone like a coachman or of good standing in life. Also deerstalker hats back then were mainly worn by the gentry for the purposes of hunting unlike today where anyone can wear a deerstalker hat as a fashion statement! My better half by the way does wardrobe and fashion. She’s also a professional seamstress so knows all the various styles of clothing and dress throughout the ages. I just thought I’d add my views and findings regarding JTR as you can be forever discovering new bits of info all the time. But somehow unless Scotland Yard release the last remaining case file in the matter I’m of the opinion of Barlow and Watts; that somehow we aren’t meant to know and we will never know. Other than that this whole phase/period of Dr who when it was written by hinchclife and Holmes really brought that essence of Hammer horror over with them. And to me DW under Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker will always be the best era of DW and no amount of Lucas style special effects will sway me on that either. Thanks 👍🏽

[@phonotical]

25:21... Stalin?!

[@henrykujawa4427]

I just thought I'd mention, the Chaney PHANTOM is one of my all-time favorite films ever, but I recently re-watched the Claude Rains PHANTOM and found it to be one of the most intensely ANNOYING films I've ever sat thru, for a mountain of reasons. However, there was ONE moment in the film that struck me (one which is not in the other versions I've seen), and it's when the hero is chasing the guy around the catwalks high above the stage, then swinging down on a rope. I never realized until that moment that that scene inspired a near-identical scene in "TALONS". So, on that score alone, the DOCTOR WHO story is VASTLY superior to a Universal feature film that made a ton of money back in 1943.

[@cindydott452]

The disclaimer should include "Leela in a wet tee-shirt contest"!

[@stezza7]

Would love to buy the poster but you only ship to the UK. Missing all your Aussie fans. :(

[@Dalek6388]

I think if you contact Gav directly he’d arrange something for you

[@Dalek6388]

www.paypal.com/instantcommerce/checkout/T7ULKPHYGH7JS

[@irritatedandhungry2796]

Should not have watched this before bed… great video nonetheless!

[@Redfern42]

Given the research your team puts into these things, I suspect you will state the following is merely apocryphal. Never the less, I read something long ago, possibly decades that Greel was originally going to be the Master, still in a state of decay after the events of "The Deadly Assassin", using his essence extractor for the same reason as the future war criminal Greel. But, for reasons I can't remember, they opted to drop the Master for a new, original character. If true, it's kinda' sad Robert Holmes dropped that idea as it makes the situation more personal for the Doctor and demonstrates just how low the Master has fallen, from nearly destroying an entire world, probably an entire star system to revitalize himself, to skulking in the sewers draining singular victims like a cadaverous ghoul.

[@Dalek6388]

I have heard this before yeah. It would be interesting to know just how close it is to the truth.

[@timrob12]

Jack the Ripper, just like the Doctor, can be considered "the stuff of legends". Maybe the two of them have more in common than we think.

[@andrewjones5513]

Was that Barbera Windsor.?

[@Dalek6388]

Yes!

[@Rick_Cleland]

*_Mmmmmmm..._* 🤔🤔🤔

[@tenacious3911]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't _Talons_ the first Doctor Who story to depict a character taking a recreational drug other than nicotine, caffeine, or alcohol?

[@unimpressedlink2507]

There’s the emotion drugs in Gridlock I suppose

[@Quirderph]

@@unimpressedlink2507 They said first, not only.

[@tenacious3911]

@@unimpressedlink2507 Yeah, but that was long after _Talons_ aired.

[@OwlGal]

24:45 Am I the only one who thinks that woman looks like John Lennon?

[@garybryant5946]

Nah it's influenced by The Phantom Raspberry Blower of old London Town

[@davidioanhedges]

Jack ... even that he was a man is not known ... just assumed ... 'He' could have committed the crimes in Whitechapel then gone home on the The London Underground ...

[@jbaldwin1970]

I don’t think that’s a polka. A polka has a distinctive rhythm and instrumentation. That’s a cancan. 🤓

[@Dalek6388]

Yeah Gav has now realised the mistake!

[@christopherlockery9629]

I know that this has already been said in the past, but I just had to say this anyway... Is it just me but didn't Robert Holmes look just like Sherlock Holmes and didn't he and Philip Hinchcliffe make the perfect dubble act? There I've said it! And NOT the punchline to the classic joke! Happy Times and Places

[@FirstSWDWhoSurvivedRemembrance]

I feel like a drug addict constantly back for more product. WHARES MAR DALEK VIDOE HOMES I NEED MAR FIXE YEH

[@FirstSWDWhoSurvivedRemembrance]

On another note, very well researched video.

[@Mattfromthepast]

can someone tell me what the piece of music that opens this video is called? I feel like I have heard it before and it is really bugging me.

[@jbaldwin1970]

El Laberinto del Fauno Music by Canzoni Strumentale (Pan’s Labyrinth)

[@Mattfromthepast]

@@jbaldwin1970 That is where I heard it before! Thanks a bunch! That was driving me insane.

[@jbaldwin1970]

@@Mattfromthepast you’re welcome!

[@jameswhite3043]

You mean The Ripper wasn't a white guy in yellowface?

[@phonotical]

It tells the audience it's worse than the ripper? If maybe the kids watching at the time were experts in the murders, sure 🤣 - also, are you telling me the cabbie thought his wife was doing a bit of dodgy business on the side? What was weng chiang an anagram for? We changing? 😅

[@geraldstiling3735]

This episode shows more of Leela.🗡️ Than when she is in her leathers👙

[@cindydott452]

Wet tee-shirt contest with a big rat!

[@MrBannystar]

Love these videos, easily the most consistently good YT channel that I watch. I'm still in awe about the video about how they had to edit Remembrance, it changed my perception of the universe. But also good that you can branch out to other topics away from just Daleks. Looking forward to the next one!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!