How the Early Cybermen and The Wheel in Space were Influenced by Science and Movies

[@Dalek6388]

Get Atlast VPN's amazing deal 👉 get.atlasvpn.com/Dalek

[@marcse7en]

"Atlast" VPN? 🤣

[@davidaston5773]

I've said this before, and I'm sure other Doctor Who fans feel the same, your documentaries Dalek6388, are of such professional quality the BBC should employ you and Josh Snares to helm their extras on Doctor Who releases of stories/season boxsets. They should've got you to do this for the 60th. You could've done a documentary of the history of 1960s stories being colourised and Snares about missing episodes. Wonderful and exceptional. David

[@himynameisben95]

This has got to be the most in-depth anybody has ever gone on a concept as obscure as this. A captivating video.

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@jakefifelski3851]

Agreed

[@connorclark3661]

Love the alternate intro focused on the cybermen rather than the daleks. Hope that becomes a recurring theme. Would love one for everyone's favourite Doctor Who villain, the quarks 😉

[@helium1786]

I am glad I am not the only one who likes the Quarks.

[@Tymbus]

The Wheel in Space has a good reputation with me. I remember finding it exciting as a child. I can't wait for DVD with good animation for the missing episodes!

[@dregoth22]

I dunno when that will be, the bbc put a halt to aninated reconstructions after the underwater menace

[@jakefifelski3851]

I can’t wait either.

[@smittzero8463]

Normally I watch to learn about the history and construction of props but the mathematics and physics involved with sci-fi worldbuilding was fascinating. The Wheel in Space wouldn't be the only time that Doctor Who referenced Station 5. The 9th Doctor episode The Long Game features a multi-wheeled space station named Satellite 5.

[@MetroTitanD78]

Amazing amount of work went into the Wheel in Space episode which probably only a handful of people would have realised at the time. Seeing all the calculations in this episode on how they did stuff was really interesting and a real credit to the writers.

[@colinbarron4]

Excellent video. I would point out that Kit Pedler was not an 'optometrist.' The word 'optometrist' (like 'oculist') is just an alternative name for an optician, who is someone who examines eyes and then prescribes glasses if required. Kit Pedler graduated in Medicine and so was a medical doctor . He eventually became an Ophthalmic Pathologist and did a lot of research on the anatomy of the retina and the nature of vision. He wasn't really an 'ophthalmologist' either because he did not see patients,treat people or do eye operations. I am a former doctor and worked for a few years as a junior ophthalmologist.

[@davidhuggins16]

An absolutely fascinating episode, and I’m very taken with the incidental music here too. Really evocative of Brian Hodgson’s radiophonic sound design for the original episodes.

[@brassbandit]

Thanks, David, that was certainly the intention!

[@Chord_]

A phenomenal episode. It was truly a thrill watching the analysis of the lagrange points, and the subsequent dissection of where in space W3 falls. The fact that so much evident thought and care went into the production of Wheel in Space that would probably go past most audience members is remarkable to me. Thank you for bringing it life!

[@jakefifelski3851]

A lot of work went into this

[@Grim2]

21:18 - You've still put more effort than BBC with any of the animated reconstructions! :D So strange that it never occurs to them that they could do the eps with CGI and motion capture (would save ton of time).

[@Middle-Road.Kim.K]

My thoughts exactly. I remember watching those missing eps and wondering why they looked like BBC only invested £1.50 (plus free chips to the animators).

[@jakefifelski3851]

Agreed

[@Icelandic_Sand]

That intro took me by surprise for sure, but by far my favorite part was the remix of the 60's cyberman theme, its always been one of my favorite pieces of Who music and it was awesome hearing it here.

[@JeffJolly1]

Brilliant stuff! I just have one question... Why the heck is the BBC not getting you to make the special features on the DVD/ Blu-ray collections? ❤

[@jakefifelski3851]

Heck why aren’t they getting you to animate it

[@Middle-Road.Kim.K]

Thank you for yet another brilliant deep dive! Classic Who will _always_ have my heart. I fell in love with Who during the Tom Baker years which features the Ark - twice! As my age is post-2001 A Space Odyssey, as I watched Ark in Space I never gave it much throught that such a huge satellite wasn't just around the corner IRL, technology-wise. Your discussion of both the science and science fiction kept me fully engaged. PS: Your rough animatics are already more visually appealing, even in greyscale, than the animations produced in 2015 (2016?). Looking forward to seeing more! PPS: Ooooh, Wernher von Braun..... thorny territory. 🤔

[@robocelot]

Interestingly, your proposed position for the Wheel at L3 coincides with the original location of Mondas as stated in _The Tenth Planet_ before it drifted out of the solar system. Kind of makes sense the Cybermen would attack the Wheel first: it's technically their ancestral home but divorced of the emotional connection to it they just seem to gravitate (no pun intended) there without knowing why. It's also very convenient place to launch attacks on earth and the other stations as it's blocked from telescope and sensor view by the sun. Did Pedlar intentionally mean to tie this into his original Cyberman story or was this simply a happy accident?

[@TardisTimegirl]

Fascinating video and brilliant research as always, especially regarding the icarus model (I now need to update my wheel model which has been wrong for about fifteen years). Lovely to see the set plans for the oxygen supply room, Matmos said the lava lamps were a special commission - amazing considering the budget for this story. Great to see The Wheel in Space getting the attention it deserves!

[@Grim2]

8:54 - Suddenly that one Tom and Jerry short by Chuck Jones makes perfect sense (Tom starts shooting on a space station and whole thing deflates)... 8O

[@britanimations2002]

I was about to say how they probably regret calling their show "Terry Nation Army" before y'all just hit me with that Tomb of the Seven Nation Armymen music, this shit slaps!

[@smorris12]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. The reconstruction. The breakdown of the wheel location. The whole kit and caboodle.

[@andykey78]

I think you'll find it was Kit (Peddlar) and David (Whittaker). I have no idea who this Caboodle person is...

[@smorris12]

@@andykey78 I nearly put (pun intended) on the end ;-)

[@thecelestialtoygazer7816]

Always impressed by the thoroughness of your research. Incidentally, a more modern example of the "walking on the wall" concept can be seen in Thunderbird 5, from the 2015 reboot series "Thunderbirds Are Go"

[@alexfletcher5192]

Given tonight's commentary of what some are proud to call 'Plunger Cutaway' (aka the CIN minisode), I would like to lean into the Cybermen's reasoning for a moment. Seeing as how psychopathy is basically a deadening of the limbic system, it makes sense that strategy and manipulation is key to their actions. A methodical approach, over sheer aggression. Or perhaps I am just grasping at straws. Obviously there is a constituency that wants the 2nd boss space monsters to have some kind of 'emotional' justification beyond justifying themselves. But that's not what they are.

[@brianartillery]

Absolutely fascinating. The physics and maths used, and how deliberate those numbers were, actually brought me out in goosebumps. I love stuff like that. Thank you.

[@Dalek6388]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@KevinJonDavies]

Such a lot of work, it has to be admired. Thanks for all the time and effort. It was all very interesting and worth trudging through the many adverts (a necessary evil, I'm sure!).

[@animeaction1911]

So the Wheel is positioned where Mondas once was. Accidental perfection for a Cybermen story? Or another genius idea?

[@philfoster8789]

Correction: This is essentially about "The Wheel in Space". (With some... elliptical references to the cybermen.)

[@beamierflunky4487]

This is incredible. I've always wanted to see cyberman content on this channel as well just because of how brilliantly in depth and well thought out your productions are. I can't even fathom how you manage to get most of this info, let alone find how it relates to other things. Extremely intruiging as always. I actually quite like this serial, the sounds used in it as well as how the cybermen just are I think set a claustrophobic, macabre tone. The plot might be a bit in over it's head at times but it doesnt detract for me. It probably isn't as straight forward given the constant redesigns and the fact that cyber costumes have a lot more moving, flexible parts and surface area too them, but are individaul cyber suits and parts of them also uniquely identifiable through small quirks like with the dalek props?

[@Dalek6388]

I think doing the cyber costumes would be a real nightmare. Especially once we got to the 80s!

[@beamierflunky4487]

@@Dalek6388 I can imagine it would be a lot harder with how they move. Lots of frames to catalogue. And no doubt a lot of the parts that make up a cybersuit were interchangable and changed around a lot more thank dalek skirts and top sections.

[@alexfletcher5192]

I am constantly reminded of the Moff's description of the 11th Doctor as: 'Patrick Moore in the body of a swimwear model'. Which requires the brain bleach.

[@Dalek6388]

😂

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

Love the Cybermen variant of the opening theme!

[@ajsmith]

AMAZING! This is some of the best Dr Who content ever. A dream come true. 10/10, bravo. My admiration for you guys could not be higher.

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@ajsmith]

@@Dalek6388 you've really made me revisit this story and make me remember all the interesting and wonderful stuff it has to offer after years of deferring to received wisdom that it's weak/confusing etc. I love classic 'literary' sci fi and you really put it in context of how this story is one of the more hard SF stories of the shows run. Magic.

[@mathieuleader8601]

I always loved Moores cameo in the Eleventh Hour episode I feel like the science officer really helped with the immersion of Doctor Who as a programe.

[@nukirisame5298]

i absolutely love your reconstruction of episode 1; if full reconstructions like that of episodes existed itd be my preferred way to watch them. i don't know if you're planning to make more in the style but if you are can i request something from the myth makers or the massacre? being able to see how the episodes with the least visual material wouldve looked down to the camera angles and set choreography would be amazing

[@Dalek6388]

I’ll make Gav aware!

[@jakefifelski3851]

Agreed

[@ptonpc]

An amazing amount of thought was put into this video. In Zoe's defence (more the writers and the actress), those terms would not be common knowledge at the time and her actress did say it the way an English speaker imagined it would be said. As for the distance, perhaps they were trying to get the idea across in as few words as possible knowing the chances of anyone dissecting it afterwards was minimal

[@ftumschk]

True, although there's a strong clue in the words: if perihelion is pronounced "peri Helion", then it shouldn't be difficult to work out that aphelion should be "ap Helion", not "a feelion" :)

[@ptonpc]

@@ftumschk The actress wouldn't be familiar with scientific terms and 'ph' is pronounced as 'f' in most times in English. If you've only seen it written down and you've never heard it said out loud, you will tend to pronounce the word with an 'f'. The thing is, no one who realised would have considered it worth redoing since, as far as they knew. it was a minor slip of the tongue on an episode that would never be shown again. Let's just put it down to Zoe's strange and unusual accent :D

[@ftumschk]

@@ptonpc Oh, I totally get that but, as I said, there's a clue in the words themselves. If the first unfamiliar word is [something]-helion, then the second word is likely to be [something]-helion as well. Still, it's no big deal. Probably a Zoe accent thing, as you suggest :)

[@DrBagPhD]

Really digging that alternate intro and theme!

[@Cybermat47]

As a Cyberman fan and a Dalek 6388 fan, this is a dream come true :D Would be cool to see a video on the contradictory origin stories for the Cybermen and how they actually kinda fit together (especially after The Doctor Falls).

[@Dalek6388]

We may do more Cyber stuff!

[@Cybermat47]

@@Dalek6388just realised that Gavin Rymill is none other than themindrobber himself! Thanks for the info about the differences between _Moonbase_ and _Tomb_ Cybermen from a while back, was really helpful when I was turning my _Tomb_ Cyberman figure into a _Moonbase_ one!

[@GrumpyOldGit60]

Wonderful, bonkers, bizarre... and a lot of fun. More please!

[@alexfletcher5192]

First, let's get funky with Space Adventure. I will applaud just for that.

[@Doctor_Smith]

Amongst many other great things, that Destiny of the Doctors reference was sublime.

[@lepterfirefall]

SOOOOO happy your doing cyberman videos!!!

[@GeorgeTheDinoGuy]

Loved that intro! I’m so hyped for the children in need doctor who special tonight!

[@theindependantcartoonist]

I sincerely hope you continue to make more videos based off of other non dalek aspects of the show!

[@Dalek6388]

I think we may go off topic from time to time, yes!

[@dregoth22]

I love the integration of Space adventure (the cybermen theme from Tomb) into the intro

[@edgeeffect]

"Gaps in Zoe's knowledge".... UNTHINKABLE! ;)

[@charlesflint9048]

As a fan of Doctor Who since 1963, and as a sci fi enthusiast I look forward to colourised high def editions appearing sometime soon.

[@indigohammer5732]

One of the PLS systems from 2001 appears in City of Death

[@shireknight01]

Another absolutely fascinating episode, thank you for crunching all those numbers for us.

[@craiglightowler2991]

Well, here comes the science bit! Very thorough, nicely put together!! Loving the Cybermen opening theme variation and the title sequence too 😁

[@davidgould9431]

Great video! I had no idea Patrick Moore was even in the frame to advise on Doctor Who. Lots of other surprises, too. Like you, I bridled at Zoe's mispronunciation of aphelion, but "highly elliptical" doesn't make any sense: a circle is also "highly elliptical". "Highly eccentric" would probably be better. Edit: "highly", not "very". I have a memory like a - what is it you drain rice in? Colander?

[@christiankatic5408]

Gents, that Tomb of the Cybermen theme is a banger. Love the videos as always!

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

A splendid deep analysis of this episode. I am delighted how much science holds up!

[@atherstone55]

Always love a new video from this channel, my favourite on KZbin

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@richardmattocks]

Loving the new intro with cyber-inspired music. Nice touch 😎

[@JamesPotts]

I love the "cyber" version of the theme music!

[@Just-Plain-Potential]

Feel a bit silly now that the only space wheels I knew of as a kid were the mini-boss ones you fight in Starfighter 3000 (1994). Those were clearly based off 2001. Only one wheel, not touble, but the hangar was in the same place and they had the 4 arms. Thanks for the education. While I obviously have seen a review or two of Wheel in Space, the definitely helped teach me FAR more. Thank you.

[@Lumibear.]

Good god I adore this channel. Thanks guys, love your work.

[@marquonuk]

The music and sounds of Doctor Who were a major part of its early success because they were so weird and unconventional. Our first experience of the series was the weird title visuals generated using howlaround, accompanied by the weird sounds of the Delia Derbyshire arranged theme music composed by Ron Grainer. The 1960s and 70s productions often used strange sounds and music wherever they could (including some inspirational stock music pieces, mostly used in the 60s). What's wonderful is when the sounds and the music are occasionally inseparable and indistinguishable from each other, such as in the wonderfully weird Sea Devils incidental music/sounds, which takes the whole story into another dimension. Referring specifically to The Wheel in Space, its sounds that accompany the appearances of the Cybermen still give me a chill up my spine...

[@jakefifelski3851]

Yes this one just sounds creepy! Great atmosphere for a who!

[@DaleRibbons]

Personally, I liked 'The Wheel In Space'. I don't understand why so many others dislike it.

[@Textra1]

I love those original Cybermen. They are so terrifying.

[@derianimp]

Amazing work!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@james68908]

there was a space wheel in the george pal 1955 film "conquest of space".

[@fpvDRE]

another epic upload brother 👍

[@Stuart_Cox1969]

Brilliant, love it when we get a new video, thanks to everyone involved.

[@eddiegaltek]

I read somewhere that when David Bowman was deactivating HAL they use a technique of hanging Keir Dullea head down between two walls to simulate weightlessness and that this was copied from Dr. Who; although it might have been the other way around.

[@ajsmith]

Influenced by Katarina's death scene in Daleks Masterplan 4. Kubrick apparently phoned up the Dr Who production office to ask how they'd done it.

[@frankshailes3205]

Truly excellent, thank you so much for making this superb look into the thinking behind this story (and an amazing selection of clips and photos)... I will never underrate it, as it is the Dr Who story that is precisely as old as me!

[@marcse7en]

Have you rebranded the channel, "Cyberman 66 • 88" 🤣

[@bedwyrgullidge86]

Fascinating video! Genuinely fascinating!

[@KarlWitsman]

Wow! Another great fact-filled episode. Thanks.

[@walsallmatt]

Ooooooh new blood! I love these videos the research you guys undertake is staggering

[@jakefifelski3851]

Yes keep up the research. Amazing

[@sphericalharmony1603]

Just a quick note: Joseph-Louis Lagrange was an 18th century Italian/French mathematician. His surname is not pronounced to rhyme with the English word "range". If you pronounce the "an" part of "range" by the sound of the English word "on" you will get somewhere close to the correct pronunciation.

[@sunwentai1]

Great Scott!!! What an amazing video!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@space-time-hobo]

This is the most fantastic video you've made in my opinion, keep them coming! I love very detail about Cybermen stories, and for anyone out there, listen to The ArcHive Tapes: Cybermen by David Banks, they're gold.

[@farmbrough]

"I know what you're thinking" erm... I was thinking "Isn't he modern, using metres, instead of yards?"

[@Problembeing]

Absolutely fascinating. You don't get that level of complexity in Modern Who's writing!

[@ennayanne]

you don't get it in 95% of classic either to be fair

[@iLikeTheUDK]

It's honestly not been part of Doctor Who's type of sci-fi for almost its whole existence, barring when Kit Pedler was onboard. If you want something with hard science, watch The Expanse, not Doctor Who. Maybe even watch both

[@Ilikemc_donalds]

Hope the wheel in space gets animated in 2024

[@iLikeTheUDK]

Hey, what do you use to animate and render things in 3D now? On your website it said you used Cinema 4D roughly 20 years ago, probably with its own standard renderer, what program and what renderer do you use nowadays?

[@Dalek6388]

The renders in this were done by Ant Lamb. But Gav still does stuff so I will try to find out

[@Randy_Batswinger]

"The Wheel in Space" is one of those 'what it says on the tin' titles, isn't it? Mind you, so are a lot of DW titles. Eric Saward might've called it "Sunburst". I like "The Ring Donut in Space".

[@marquonuk]

One thing TWiS has over the other 1960s Cybermen stories (which are arguably better) is the apparently unique idea of "growing" Cybermen. Early in the story we have that weird scene of the Cyberman apparently being created in a circular egg of some kind and enlarged before "birth" (it's a while since I've watched the remaining episodes, so I might easily have misremembered these details). As far as I can recall, this way of generating Cybermen was never mentioned in the story, and has never recurred, possibly because it's very hard to explain or justify within what we know of official Cyber history as seen on TV. I presume it would be from some form of cloning of cells from a Cyberman, but it's hard to see how one would clone a creature that is basically a human who has been augmented with Cyber technology, with its technology already as part of it at birth. It isn't totally at odds with the central drive for survival at any costs that the 1960s Cybermen exhibited. This is perhaps a hanging thread of a concept that could be taken up by future Doctor Who writers, since it has to my awareness never been explored. It would explain how the Cybermen managed to increase their numbers after the events of Tomb of the Cybermen (presumably the cloning method was done by a different group of Cybermen, the ones we meet in TWiS, who do look a little different to the Tomb ones).

[@Maxwell-237]

Another case closed, by the Dalek Detectives! (or are they the Cyber Profilers now?)

[@caw90025]

Exceptional episode. Fantastic!

[@Dalek6388]

Thank you!

[@borusa32]

I am very pleased you have got onto the Cybermen now.

[@jakefifelski3851]

Pleased also

[@lightdark00]

Quality stuff here!

[@trailersic]

I'm no rocket scientist but wouldn't a space station using centrifugal acceleration have to have some method to force people to stay in one location? What if you ran in the opposite rotation, wouldn't you become lighterand eventually be able to jump and stay in the air with the space station spinning past you, a dangerous position to be in.

[@tezzerii]

The centrifugal effect is outward, not rotational, even though it's caused by rotation, so it wouldn't make any difference which way you ran.

[@trailersic]

@@tezzerii But if you ran in the opposite direction to the spinning, you would essentially be spinning slower, so the centrifugal force would be less.

[@tezzerii]

@@trailersic ok, but I'm not sure if you could run fast enough - it probably depends on a number of factors

[@zagreus101]

But two of those stations don't fit on any legrange points?

[@simes0161]

As always, a fantastic watch... How these aren't on iPlayer beats me.....

[@Dalek6388]

Thanks Simon!

[@DrMedicsGameSurgery]

as usual, a great video!

[@Cybermat47]

The idea of using cybernetic augmentation for astronauts actually comes up in the 2004 audio story _The Harvest_ - spoilers below. I’m just going to waffle on a bit here so that you don’t see the spoilers below. Really hope that we get an action figure of the _Wheel in Space_ Cybermen soon, it’s the only major design I don’t have in my collection. Spoilers begin here. _The Harvest_ is set in 2021, and sees the Euro-Combine government enter into a deal with some shipwrecked Cybermen. The Europeans will remove the Cybermen’s augmentations and restore their human bodies and minds, and, in return, the Cybermen will help the Europeans turn their own astronauts into Cybermen, giving them an advantage over China - which basically owns the moon - and the Pan-US Core, which has already established the ‘W Stations’ of _The Wheel in Space_

[@andriygriffin4782]

A Wheel in Space episode?? My birthday, this is such an underrated story for the mondasians!

[@phonotical]

Routine space flight and all, why did that man take his crystal radio set with him on a rocket 🤣 With regards to the rotation of the station, would not it's own orbit also be a factor, maybe it was orbiting an asteroid (unseen) and the affect of both motions produced the force required 🙈 I always thought zoes outfit was purple(I don't know why) , is there a colour reference image

[@sbatty65227]

An excellent episode.

[@krissybaglin9206]

I think the design WOULD also be reflected as a cultural artefacts in designs of stations even if/when their technology evolved past the need for such rudimentary forms of artificial gravity.

[@chriswinwood6501]

Absolutely remarkable

[@user-jh5pg4ek9k]

Check the New Scientist around the time the scripts were written. Bet it featured space stations and plans for a fleet of them.

[@kayb9979]

I loved this story when I first saw it. I always thought the servitor robots (or whatever you want to call them) were rather cute. I thought that about the Quarks as well.

[@The-Cosmic-Hobo]

I just had to drop in and say... whilst the Cybermen may have been influenced by science... I will never forget the reports in the 1990's of a Doctor, I think from France, who was sewing zippers into patients chests when they were going to need multiple surgeries, rather than opening them over and over. I am sure the 60's Cybermen was noted as a source for the concept.

[@my_roku]

Dr. Who now has a real IDPOL advisor.

[@ennayanne]

Great video as always, also was surprised to see your channel name on the back of the history of the daleks box! ha

[@alangunn7254]

Did Kit Pedler suggest using the Disney space station model in the episode to promote it to the public, and then later sell it?

[@marquonuk]

I always preferred the Cybermen to the Daleks back in the 1960s, so the more documentaries you do on them the better, for my taste. They were slow-moving, mysterious, creepy, amoral cyborg survivalists back then, and never bettered IMHO.

[@TheDigitalApple]

Still would’ve been interesting to see the original idea for the story where it would have both Daleks and Cybermen on screen together, predating Doomsday for 40 years before this dream could happen.

[@brassbandit]

I have a recording of Gav singing the concept for the intro music which can go to the highest bidder. :-D

[@Dalek6388]

😂

[@tentringer4065]

Excellent

[@benflay6038]

Id add "revenge" to the ark another station a wheel like those illustrations. And dalek death wheel