How Art Can Save You | Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy

[@WeltgeistYT]

This video was a LOT of work, so please leave a like and comment (and subscribe if you haven't already...) if you want to support us! And if you can afford it, join us on Patreon where we post exclusive content. Ty for watching! -WG ▶ www.patreon.com/WeltgeistYT

[@satnamo]

You are welcome, Alex!

[@shadowlessgam]

Too many ads

[@rhysenfyneix7864]

Ooo

[@rhysenfyneix7864]

9o

[@sonjia619]

I would like you to know this video helped me so much in understanding my journey i have been called to. I clearly see the good and the bad in a much more brighter light. Your video has helped me tremendously. I look forward to watching more on dyoneses to get a better understanding on the whyn

[@hardwoodthought1213]

‘Man is not an artist; he is a work of art’

[@Fr33_K3y]

Both. We are an abundance of super position.

[@michaeldamato9466]

Or he's a piece of work lol.

[@Dino_Medici]

THE COSTLIEST MARBLE THE NOBLEST OF CLAY

[@sporeolegy]

We create because we are created ~ Tolkien

[@leonnox3462]

Birth of Tragedy has been the most difficult work of Nietzsche for me to understand so I'm glad to finally see your analysis.

[@stanislavstoimenov1729]

Really? Not "Thus spoke Zarathustra"? How strange...

[@charlesring9579]

@@stanislavstoimenov1729 Zarathustra? Really I consider On the Genealogy of morals most difficult. But I read that first and Zarathustra last, probably has something to do with it.

[@shinybeast8946]

@@stanislavstoimenov1729 "...Zarathustra"is a walk in the park compared to "Beyond Good and Evil."

[@m1ar1vin]

Would love a DEEP dive on Dionysus!! awesome videos you guys are putting out there, please keep it up

[@soniab4876]

I agree, it's such a complex and ample subject that becomes a whole "motif" that echoes throughout most of his works, it's definitely worth it

[@m1ar1vin]

@@soniab4876 100%, I hope they do this. Particularily because Nietzsche himself is a hyper intelligent human, and yet didn't succumb to Socratic rationality. I haven't quite understood yet how he came to that, though I belive his various illnesses might have played a part in that.

[@charlesring9579]

@@m1ar1vin Its a very autistic thought process, in my pov as autistic. Or maybe its just similar to my personal (and obviously inferior) way of thinking

[@SeraphimVolker]

I'm loving the Nietzsche content you've been putting out. I think you're the most reliable channel for fleshed out, meaningful, Nietzsche inspired videos.

[@lurking_shadows49]

Nice to see a good summary of Nietzsche's works, especially for those who don't have the time to read all of his books.

[@Индоевропљанин]

Please do make a deep dive video on Dionysus. I loved every second of this video, one of the best youtube videos I've seen. Keep up the great work, I love your channel.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you

[@sondre5174]

Thank you for your work weltgeist. Always a delight to see you post a video on youtube.

[@jmiller1918]

Best sustained look at Nietzsche's first book that I have encountered. Bravo!! So many riches in this video that a second (and possibly third) watch is mandatory.

[@honestexpression6393]

I wanted to comment exactly this.

[@cecilcharlesofficial]

"...in the augmentation of which the subjective vanishes to complete self-forgetfulness." This is why Alan Watts hits so hard, because he's talking about the above, but in language we all enjoy hearing. When academics use jargon to describe satori, it really makes me wonder if they've ever touched the magic, or if they're just re-wording the accounts of other people who have.

[@gregpappas]

Congratulations. This may be your finest to dates. Neitzche’s self critique could have lead him to found modern Stoicism. If life is suffering but you rejoice, you are exactly where Epictitus starts. Please continue your outstanding work. Consider stoicism and modern stoicism as a topic. Again thank you.

[@jakepokemonman1227]

Love your channel. Been watching for a year or so now. I'm glad minds like myself still enjoy philosophy! Ill be watching keep up the great content.

[@thabangofficial]

I may be too quick to liken them, but Dostoevsky sounds like Euripides? That being said, I'd like a thorough understanding of the Apollonian and the Dionysian. I seem to follow most of Kant's, through to Arthur's, and then Freidrich's thoughts up until that point. It would be nice to get directed to a source of enlightenment regarding the two ideas.

[@hardwoodthought1213]

Can you expand on the Euripides/Dostoevsky point? An interesting comparison I’ve not thought of

[@sigvardbjorkman]

5:51 The bees gather sweet honey in good order that then spontaneously start to ferment as if by some magic force, and upon consuming the alcohol it starts to, in a way, “ferment” the psyche as well with this magic.

[@chrisfarley839]

Thank you for your hard work and labor in putting this video together on Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy! I have so waited for this topic to be covered! I think it his one of his most underrated. The Apllonian and Dionysus principles are fasciating and are worthy of an in depth conversation. Thank you again!

[@whatsinameme5258]

Brilliantly done

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thanks!

[@noahssircharge]

Please do a video on Dionysus.

[@OscarCuzzani]

Thank you for a wonderful analysis of Nitzsche's work on tragedy.

[@emZee1994]

There is a tonne of value in Schopenhauer's ideas, but one idea I can never accept is that the essence of reality is suffering. Nietzsche is correct in saying that this is a terrible metaphysics

[@franzwilde89]

Terrific video. A deep dive into Dionysus would be great

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you

[@canisronis2753]

Well done, as usual...had me looking for the Thank$ button!

[@WeltgeistYT]

Much appreciated. We’ll unlock that soon

[@denispanteleev6110]

Good day sir. Love your channel. Would you make video about François de La Rochefoucauld?

[@WeltgeistYT]

Great suggestion!

[@dorsahatefi8882]

A video on Dionysus will be fantastic! Thank you so much for your wonderful content.

[@WesleyRosenberg]

Do a deep dive on Dionysus!

[@LordEriolTolkien]

''Euripedes trousers, you men' a deez trousers...'' I'll get my hat.

[@gracefitzgerald2227]

Great voice. Loved the video

[@davidowen4816]

Definately worth a read, especially the later edition with his observations and critiques. The prosaic and aphoristic style of his later works is absent here but is still a joy to read. If I remember correctly this edition was dedicated to Voltaire.

[@thomassimmons1950]

Bloody Brilliant representation-theory of the case. BRAVO 👏!

[@sigvardbjorkman]

Amazing piece of work!

[@iamone_]

I’m glad i found this channel.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Welcome aboard

[@TheExceptionalState]

Wonderful weaving of the different influences uniting themselves in the writing of Nietzsche. Thank you! 🙏

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@wun_73]

I think the one part that is lefted out is the importance of the idea of Sublime from Kant in Nietzsche work

[@himanshusinha9635]

I really love the work you are doing out there, keep going please. These videos are so very helpful. I always wanted to read Nietzsche's works, only to realize when I started reading those,they were beyond my comprehension, but after seeing your videos I feel all the more excited to pursue philosopical knowledge. Thank you and lots of love❤❤❤

[@gerson_19]

Thank you for providing such a detailed analysis on The Birth of Tragedy. I was hoping you could elaborate further on the concept of Dionysian in Nietzsche's philosophy. I am interested in gaining a deeper understanding of this aspect of his thought and any additional insights you can provide would be greatly appreciated, @WeltgeistYT

[@afareus3353]

I think that in this book (which is the only one I've red from Nietzsche) he describes undescribable, therefore it can be for some people hard to understand, but once you somehow had knew much of the things that are discussed there, or even rather than knew I would say experienced, yet before you went to read it, then it is just astonishing work that express something really deep, trully metaphysical! For me it was literally a pleasure to read it and to be honest this is besides Plato the first classic philosophical work I've ever read so I didn't have this 'philosophical' preparation. But how could it help anybody to rationally know all that history of philosophy if he never experienced that dionysian anguish and intoxication? If one doesn't know these things from his own experience then it must be very hard or even impossible to understand..

[@TheShamelle]

So fantastic. I can't thank you enough for this.

[@honestexpression6393]

Best video on philosophy and art that I have seen till date.

[@jman7826]

It appears to me that In the time since Nietzsche’s own plastic art has become increasingly Dionysian, through movements such as abstract expressionism, while music has become increasingly Apollonian, given the emphasis on clear cut lyrics that tell the listener how they should feel throughout the work, common in the modern “single” format. This change itself could be seen as a Dionysian movement, in that the older boundaries between the media have become increasingly blurred.

[@markoslavicek]

What about instrumental music?

[@garrycraigpowell]

I disagree. Plastic art is totally cerebral and rational, with a few exceptions, since 1900. Initially jazz was Dionysian, with Armstrong, etc., but became increasingly cerebral and conceptual. Pop music in the sixties had a strong Dionysian element, viz. The Doors and The Stones, but with the advent of electronic pop - music literally made by computers - has also become sterile and cerebral, even as it purports to be Dionysian. The Dionysian impulse remains - we see it in raves, for example - but I see no art, or almost none, rising to the challenge. Literature is moribund, and I say that as a novelist myself. Hardly any contemporary writers are worth reading. Even fewer have even a Dionysian streak in their work.

[@markoslavicek]

@@garrycraigpowell Why would you describe Apollonian as sterile? It has a negative connotation somehow, and its impulse is of equal aesthetic value as that of Dionysian.

[@garrycraigpowell]

@@markoslavicek You're right, that was hurried, thoughtless writing. Obviously you need both, and there is much Apollonian art that I admire, like the music of Bach or Mozart, or the architect of Palladio or Christopher Wren. What I meant was that art becomes sterile when it's purely rational, and divorced from feeling and intuition. I think that's true of much contemporary art in all fields. However, you're right that order and reason are in themselves not harmful, of course. Only if taken to excess - like the Bauhaus, for example.

[@markoslavicek]

@@garrycraigpowell I guess it all depends on how we define Apollonian and Dionysian. Rational/intuitive is surely a good perspective, but I also like to add form and content, visual and audible (if we discuss 'primary senses' to which those impulses aspire), and of course, spatial and temporal. Finally, I like to draw an analogy with pre-Socratic notions of Being and Becoming. Apollonian would in that case be the form, the material, that which is, whereas the Dionysian being the flux, the change, the energy. Cosmologically speaking, space and time form a unity called 'spacetime'. There cannot be Becoming without Being because if nothing material exists (the spatial), change cannot be detected. The change is only change if it changes 'something'. Equally so, if there is no temporal element, Being cannot exist because it is nullified into a singularity of a moment. And so, the temporal and the spatial - the Apollonian and the Dionysian - coexist in reality and are divided only through our senses and interpretation. Greek theatre was a fusion of these two aspects of art because it included both the spatial/visual (masks, stage, scene, architecture) and temporal/performative (acting, singing, dancing). A feast for eyes and ears. By the same reasoning, sculpture is always an Apollonian medium and music is always a Dionysian one, but any medium can aim to express different instincts. I like your examples of 60s pop music and electronic raves of today. They are surely Dionysian in the way we consume them (ecstatic frenzy at the concerts for example). The other example mentioned in the original comment - the abstract expressionist painting - while visual and 'unchangeable', aims to capture the frenzied movement and chaos. Basically, any art medium is able to express both impulses, bound only by limitations of the medium itself. This is where theatre has an advantage - it contains more than a single medium and is able to represent both static and dynamic forms of expression. That's why we easily categorise Mozart as an Apollonian composer even though there is nothing static about music as such. Unless... we talk about music of La Monte Young, for example. Or even Mortan Feldman. Some of their pieces are extremely 'static', which would make them way more Apollonian than any Mozart's movement. They say architecture is frozen music, but no - frozen music is the music of La Monte Young. In a similar way, meticulously calculated integral serialist pieces like those of Stockhausen or Xenakis are as rational as it gets. Again, Apollonian by definition, but their sound result appears to be entropic and Dionysian. This is why I like to imagine electronic music as an Apollonian art form, for it is a direct result of human rationality and artificial (not instinctive) achievement. And yet, those dance raves are Dionysian as a final product. We could apply the same to visual arts - dynamic sculptures, multimedia installations, etc. Apollonian by medium, Dionysian in expression. In the end, I guess one should differentiate Apollonian and Dionysian when it comes to categorisation of an art genre, and Apollonian and Dionysian when it comes to a particular work of art. I don't know if this stream of thought make any sense to you, but this is how I see it: Apollonian and Dioynsian as a continuum within which we can find both clear cut categories as well as overlapping and merging impulses.

[@moussaa3145]

Great video as always, its a pleasure watching this channel, thanks for your effort.

[@unitedtomato5444]

Here I am watching the video before reading the book 😅 Thank you for the amazing video!

[@zoef3689]

What a coincidence, I just started diving in to „The Birth of Tragedy“ a few days ago. Thank you so much for this video, it’s definitely helped me understand better what I’ve already read and further prepared me to continue reading! :)

[@hero9402]

So basically Socrates was the ancient "☝️🤓" to the art

[@OmarJano]

Very inspiring! Thank you

[@bontasliviu300]

Thank you for this video, it made me realize why i didnt like this book when i was younger and that it is time to take it up again with fresh eyes and knowledge. Keep up the good work it helps me immensely.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad it was helpful!

[@bath_neon_classical]

This is a great video thank you for your explaination

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad it was helpful!

[@silverorion7271]

thank you !! these videos are helping me sooo much in my philosophy class

[@WeltgeistYT]

You’re welcome

[@Harrow_]

The late Nietzsche would probably not be so critical of the humanisation of the Gods and the firm focus on the real world of Euripides’ plays, seeing as his main objection with them was that they didn’t oblige to Schopenhauer’s unity of the will, in the first edition of The birth of Tragedy. After he rejected Schopenhauer’s essence of the world, and started embracing this life passionately, I see no reason for the endurance of his Euripidean criticism in these 2 subjects.

[@satnamo]

Art +music=de Dao to salvation 🎉

[@septseptsept6246]

Thank you for sharing such a brilliant and magistral account of this great book! This is genuinely excellent.

[@WeltgeistYT]

You're very welcome!

[@SocietyOfTheLiftedLorax]

Thank you. A video regarding art would be grateful!

[@WeltgeistYT]

You got it!

[@Calidore1]

I’m also grateful for this. Thank you.

[@isabellaandreiscassal3861]

Hi! how are you? Love your videos, please, can you put references in the discretion in next videos? Thanks :p

[@lawxs9114]

Thank you very much from Indonesia, in my country i have Subculture nietzschean in online, your video so helpfull

[@jithinjose8065]

Pls do a grand video about it.

[@MABTV]

Please do a Dionysus follow up video 😢😢

[@antediluvian2380]

muito bom

[@LordMisunderstoodSnape]

I love your channel. ❤

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you!

[@matheusmgames]

great video, it will help at my studies

[@WeltgeistYT]

Glad to hear that!

[@markoslavicek]

There were some great takes on this channel but I believe this is the best video so far. Pity Nietzsche neglected the Apollonian over years in favour of the Dionysian and thus fell into the same trap of disbalance he accused Socrates and Euripides for. But either way, looking forward to new uploads 🍻

[@jeanbaptiste8628]

Art isn't a past time, a hobby, or carerer; it's a relic, to a weapons system, that can't yet be built by science or academics; otherwise, an obseleted design. This book, is the internal components guideline, in Nietzsche's sequence of 2-3 2-1 1, with the 2-1, as Ecce Homo. Each has a trap; here, fantasy, is removed, in favor of industry. The family replaced by the household.

[@gustavpace9858]

Superb video ❤

[@karenlouise2156]

Thank you very much. It is much appreciated!

[@RishiNigamMusic]

Thank you for the amazing work.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you too!

[@conker690]

The criticism of Euripedies may also be a hold over of from the influence of Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer prefers books that are light on plot and heavy on character, like Tristan Shandy, and thinks works focused on plot and action bog down the works.

[@WeltgeistYT]

Yes, we’ve done a video on Schopenhauer’s take on literature. Euripides being “less poetic” than the others was a common opinion in Nietzsche’s time though, based on his Greek

[@johnny_veritas]

Left brain (appolonian) Right brain (dionisian

[@S2Cents]

Deep dive on Dionysus! ..And, Apollo.

[@Beautyinugliness]

What was Schopenhauers thoughts on dreams, seeing as Nietzsche's Apollonian is essentially conceived of as ideally represented through the state of dreaming?

[@emilyjones5472]

What about symphonic poems or programmatic music, are those not representational?

[@khalsakyshatry]

Over emphasizing the Apollonian over the Dionysian explains Reddit feeling

[@stormbreak13]

The differentiation of music from the other arts as being any more "true" is based on a false premise of thinking that our ears interpret sound waves any more correctly than our eyes interpret light, or our taste buds interpret flavor..

[@gerardjones7881]

we don't interpret music, we experience it. If its the language of the inner mind, we certainly can't translate that language into English. I can say certain music is moving but I can't define where its moving me to . If its a copy of the will, the implication is the language of the mind isn't english. Its probably very alien to us.

[@satnamo]

Silence is the music of the mind at rest

[@stormbreak13]

@@gerardjones7881 this all strikes me as nonsense- you could just as well say you don't interpret flavor, you just experience it.. but of course there's the secondary reaction of classifications and rules- (is it rock, opera, classical, rap, etc.)- what emotions are elicited by a specific tempo or tone is no different than different emotions elicited by specific colors- just as a fast tempo often evokes certain moods, so do certain colors-- both conscious and unconscious- sound waves are no less material or substantive than light or 'sculptures'- you might say a photograph is merely a sculpture of photons, and a song recorded on a CD is a sculpture of sound- as their coding is literally manifest physically, and then emanated physically through sound waves--

[@tcrijwanachoudhury]

This reminds me of a line of thought in my degree were looking at called Sonocentrisism vs Logocentrisim. The superiority of sound vs written/spoken/ lanaguge. Theres arguments for both but I think to agree with @gerard point about music. theres a amazing study where random participants are given a series of animation of balls bouncing at various rhythms and speeds, and then a number or sounds to listen to, the study is to observe if there are similarities in the ways we interpate sound when asked to pair the sound and movement animation together, almost ALL participants made the same choice. So while there are discrepancies in the ways we experience pitch, studies like this show how unified our experiences of sound are, the emotional connotations major and minor keys and their equivalents in non western music theory being another sign of this universality of experience. Just a few thoughts. Imo your take is a little too dry and Gerards a bit too esoteric, my belief is that the truth would maybe lie somewhere in the middle.

[@stormbreak13]

@@tcrijwanachoudhury even if there's a high disproportionate percentage of people who react powerfully to music over other senses (which isn't a premise I've actually accepted, but I'll play along for now to make a separate point)- that hardly proves that sound is fundamentally more 'real' or profound or important, as an immutable, universal law- it's just an analysis on a certain group of people in a certain time, reacting to certain stimuli- we know for a fact that many if not all of our senses are dwarfed by at least one other organism In nature- a bears smell for example, or a bats hearing, or an eagles eyes.. depending on the organism, and their setting, they will have a very different experience as to what "sublime" experience is- and it's arrogant and foolish to project an apparent human affinity for music, as a universal law, or anything beyond a temporary evolutionary quirk, that most certainly has both pros and cons-

[@emZee1994]

Please do a deep dive on both Dinonysus and Apollo

[@pollyshapkina]

Deep dive on Dionysus please :]

[@stewartthomas4193]

Shakespeare.. Measure for Measure.. " The miserable have no other medicine. But only hope. I have hope to live, but am prepared to die " Mathew 7.1- 7.5. Leonardo da Vinci said " The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions " Plato shared with us wisdom he learnt from Egypt, wisdom that was a death sentence in Greece, Rome ( Christianity) ..Pythagoras, Socrates and later Hypatia of Alexandria. Plato in his dialogue " The Republic " tells the allegory of " The Cave " Plato starts by telling us of prisoners being held in a sort of underground den, let us examine this den via the geometry of Bernhard Riemann and Felix Klein..Klein bottle..3rd and 4th dimensions. Plato tells us that the prisoners are bound up unable to move their heads, let us examine this bondage via the psychology of Erich Fromm.. socialisation of consciousness.. aware-unaware. Plato tells us that the prisoners mistake shadows for substance, let us examine this mistake via the philosophy of Thales and Kant.. synthetic a priori..not thing in itself. Plato tells us that one of the prisoners is released, let us examine this release via the instructions given by T.Lobsang Rampa..stilling the mind and conscious astral travel..leaving the cave/body. Plato tells us that the prisoners will reject this release, let us examine this rejection via the psychological effects of Stockholm syndrome..Plato quotes Homer " Better to be a poor man, and have a poor master, and endure anything, than to think and live after their manner " Men are not prisoners of fate, but only prisoners of their own minds. Mathew 23 13-31.

[@robertroest7619]

I think Schopenhauer has gotten it right in his metaphysics, yet I agree wholeheartedly with Nietzsches sentiment of affirmation. I’m wondering though, what philosophical arguments does Nietzsche have against Schopenhauers metaphysics? And how strong are his arguments?

[@sharoncurran6622]

Thank you!

[@chriswest8389]

I wonder what mr. n would have thought of rockn roll.

[@GabbyGibetit]

Not just best video of yours, but of videos, i have ever watched on youtube! plz dig deep into dionysian!

[@WeltgeistYT]

Thank you!

[@theplebeian2706]

Bookmark: 23:47

[@Dino_Medici]

Who else listened to Lil Wayne no Ceilings on full blast after this 😭😭😭😭

[@furg]

This is why I love rap and graffiti. They thrive on the spirit of Dionysus 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@violante1421]

ff11:32 13:06 20:18 40:38 meta 45:44 51:22

[@svetlinsofiev1910]

so photography is very Apollonian

[@CAVEDATA]

Subjective art vs objective art

[@hardwoodthought1213]

Which side are you on?

[@fairwind8676]

Yea to life!

[@anilin6353]

Schopenhauer reads like cluster B personality disorder platonism

[@sixevensage7004]

Sounds like Nietzsche got full of himself. No longer a philosopher but a critique instead of giving an openmind / freewill to humanity. His first release was not a rigid representation and did not formalize a normalcy and gave self accountability not governed. He gave a reflection to self accountabilty along with Kant.

[@jimsteele9559]

Great analysis and presentation once again. Yes, a treatment of Dionysus would be good. Camille Paglia has a few things to say I know, but a revisit is needed. The forces of chaos seem way out of control. Could we not use more Apollo these days? I could be wrong. Would love to see what you would put together. Cheers!

[@bryanutility9609]

Maybe the Greeks only had a primitive harp & sissy little flute.

[@ThompsonFranklin-p3u]

Davis Larry Hernandez Charles Perez Edward

[@svetlinsofiev1910]

isn't art inherently dyonisian and science apollonian?

[@thomassimmons1950]

Please good, sir...deeper into Dionysus!

[@AAA9549-w7w]

Saying God is dead demonstrates to me clearly that he did not know the principal of what he was talking about. Whether this world is an illusion or not, has to be known. Time and space, as illusions, must be explained as what illusion is. He did not comprehend the "Zoroaster" concept, and he went to his German belief to think of the Uberman. Like most Germans, they think they are special, as Zionist Jews think they are special. Metaphysicoan philosopher and fine art painter

[@ikiddoistudio64]

please dont put moving backgrounds on text

[@ralphricart3177]

Just add to the tragedy, that according to Hobbes, we are essentially apes, presto, we have our cripplingly disfunctional society.

[@6ixthhydro652]

Insane

[@subSapiens_]

How ridiculous Schopenhauer's theory sounds today.. but even in his time, they already knew that there's nothing 'magic' about Music.. Sound, like visual art (paintings) is nothing but waves generated by material instruments, and interacting with your senses (ears/eyes) .. The feelings/emotions are the very predictable product of these very material stimuli interacting with your specific memories, personality, etc.. Music is certainly a human construct, like painting or sculpture or a movie is, and it completely belongs to the Apollonian realm, rather than Dionysian. The two gods are not even comparable, Dionysus is about hedonism, and there's nothing chaotic about that, it's just irrelevant.. There is no chaos actually, in the Universe - it looks chaotic because of our ignorance- , and when Science looked closer, everything looked very Apollonian or rather, Aristotelian - structured, and following the cause and effect principle - .

[@python_7179]

I disagree. Music is equally Apollonian and Dionysian. Eros is the mediating force. Music is equally mathematical and emotional, intellectual as well as physical. Sexuality and passion are the driving forces of will that gives rise to the creativity of both the Apollonian and Dionysian impulses.

[@Victor_Andrei]

My fifis!

[@WheatleyDarcy-b1s]

Rodriguez Thomas Gonzalez Frank Thomas Laura

[@Dino_Medici]

Why did the birth of tragedy ruin his academic career? Just because the style it’s written in? Hard to contextualize idk what were the norms of academia back then

[@hardwoodthought1213]

It’s a few reasons. Firstly the book was largely rejecting many traditionally accepted positions found in classical studies (such as the Greeks being happy-go-lucky, naive people plundering for the sake of it. Nietzsche argued they were a deeply emotional people capable of understanding their world and place in it. Of that their art wasn’t the white marble we now think of, instead they were very artistically inclined and expressionistic). At the time German scholars relied heavily on the Hellenic interpretation of Greece and used it to inform them; many claimed the Germans were the new Greeks or descendants of them. It’s the same with most academic fields, you suggest something off-base and it’s immediately rejected. The book is also highly speculative (I studied Ancient History at degree level and I always went into with the notion that we can never really know what happened, but Nietzsches assertions at times in the work are very far-fetched). Still the most important book I’ve ever read though. It’s basically an early form of absurdism through an artistic or aesthetic (Schopenhauer) lens.

[@Dino_Medici]

@@hardwoodthought1213 Hey there. Tysm. Okay I’m getting the bigger picture. Yeah I actually started reading Paglia’s Sexual Personae a few days ago. She has helped me understand what Nietzsche was getting at-The distinction between high classical and Hellenistic Greece. How through Plato in philosophy and Euripides in art, Greek culture went from a Dionysian spirit to an Apollonian one. I’m gonna have to read her section on Dionysus a few times to really understand this genealogy and the aesthetic difference between Aeschylus’s Oresteia and Euripides’s Bacchae. I’ll get there conceptually. If you don’t mind me asking, and to the best of your knowledge. Was Nietzsche the first to make such distinction between pre and post Socratic Athens?

[@hardwoodthought1213]

@@Dino_Medici Paglia is a good author to read in relation to Apollonian/Dionysian (especially as she’s one of the few who pushes it onto contemporary and recent historical figures). And from what I’m aware of, yes. Other thinkers such as Francis Bacon had touched on the Pre-Socratic philosophers (although he largely disagreed with them), but Nietzsche from what I’ve read was the first to create as large a distinction past the simple philosophy of Socrates and those before him.

[@uscbro69]

How many ads can yu cram into this thing…jesus