How Being The Timeless Child Ruins The Doctor (Video Essay)

Doctor Who's Series 12 finale 'The Timeless Children' revealed that The Doctor is The Timeless Child, a mysterious child found on an alien planet who became the foundation of Time Lord Society. However, is it really a good idea to make The Doctor special?
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#DoctorWho #Series12 #TimelessChild

[@ihateroads7926]

“I am an idiot with a box and a screwdriver, passing though, helping out, learning.”

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

Timothy Dalton leans in from off-screen... *ACTUALLY!*

[@MissReevsy]

This quote, THIS QUOTE!

[@calebdewar6868]

Thank you so much I fully agree.

[@stevenhale2935]

Timeless children doesn't change that though!

[@cptrandom3768]

@@stevenhale2935 Just make this quote meaningless?

[@undeadnightorc]

"The Doctor is now significant because of what she is, not because of what she's done." This is a recurring theme that has invaded not just Dr Who but other tv series, movies, comics etc. Merit is now declared, not earned.

[@DuelaDent52]

Undead Nightorc (cough)Mulan2020(cough)LifeofCaptainMarvel(cough)

[@lucyolia3104]

@@DuelaDent52 I was gonna say Mulan too! God that movie was a mess...

[@slevinchannel7589]

I always loved how easy to compare the Sci-Fi-Worlds in Science Fiction are. The Cyber-Collectives are a great example/measurement-tool for that! Stargate has one, Star Trek has one, Doctor Who has one. You can easily see how inferior Doctor Who to Star Trek and Star Trek to Stargate is. Alone from the Effiency of those beings that basically are walking Effiency - or at least they should be. Cyberman and Dalek are actually on KZbin on Lists like "Top 10 Alien Races that are too Dumb to Exist!" And yeah, that summs it up very well. Stargates Cosmos is just more realistic and the most realistic. Star Trek is second-place. And Doctor Who? It's just so filled with Plot Holes and Dumb Alienc Races and Nonsense that it could never ever exist. Makes it all the more laughable in what state those 3 Franchises are. Stargate is just sleeping while the other 2 (3 if you count Star Wars) Self-Destruct in an amazing FIREWORK!

[@DeadlyDanDaMan]

100% agree.

[@jeffreychongsathien]

That's the Woke view of the world.

[@NiallMofo]

peter capaldi never regenerated, he's still being attacked by the dream crabs, chibnall never happened. fixed it.

[@NiallMofo]

@@thisisaname3099 I mean it wouldn't exactly be reoved it just wouldn't be canon :( i- i love doctor who so much why did the last 2 seasons have to happen... and why is the doctor still not ginger...

[@doggosho3044]

@@NiallMofo the docter will become ginger in the true end of the show

[@404-file-not-found]

We found our next show runner. All who agree, say "Aye".

[@tgiacin435]

@@NiallMofo one thing at least canon pretty much depends on who’s running the show. And the next episode could reveal it was all BS. Who will always change. But I mean like the drums that was added in the RTD era was removed after he became Missy. Which didn’t make sense in the first place because that wasn’t a thing in the classic series

[@johng.sprague4524]

@@thisisaname3099 Well, when you try to pander to every possible intersectional interest group infinitely sub dividing people into smaller and smaller boxes, you get to a point where you can't warp and pervert any product to appeal to every possible consumer. In other words, fuck 'em. They can watch Outlander.

[@patrickhannon4217]

10th Doctor: "Never did decipher that writing. But that's good. The day I know everything?.... Might as well stop" That quote seems appropriate to this video

[@slevinchannel7589]

I always loved how easy to compare the Sci-Fi-Worlds in Science Fiction are. The Cyber-Collectives are a great example/measurement-tool for that! Stargate has one, Star Trek has one, Doctor Who has one. You can easily see how inferior Doctor Who to Star Trek and Star Trek to Stargate is. Alone from the Effiency of those beings that basically are walking Effiency - or at least they should be. Cyberman and Dalek are actually on KZbin on Lists like "Top 10 Alien Races that are too Dumb to Exist!" And yeah, that summs it up very well. Stargates Cosmos is just more realistic and the most realistic. Star Trek is second-place. And Doctor Who? It's just so filled with Plot Holes and Dumb Alienc Races and Nonsense that it could never ever exist. Makes it all the more laughable in what state those 3 Franchises are. Stargate is just sleeping while the other 2 (3 if you count Star Wars) Self-Destruct in an amazing FIREWORK!

[@Gundam_JAY]

What episode was that

[@patrickhannon4217]

@@Gundam_JAY if it's me you're asking it's the Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit arc

[@patrickhannon4217]

@@veeteam1954 I agree mate, I suppose he's comparing Doctor Who, to Star Trek, which is pointless, because they're both different concepts.... I think I'll give up on this one 😂😂

[@DaDunge]

@@slevinchannel7589 Has it occurred to you that cyber collectives might not be a very effective way to handle a society? In that case dr who is better than those, don't get me wrong I love stargate but even there the replicators evolve away from being a pure hive mind.

[@Nick-hs8eo]

I'm calling it now, Chibnall era will either be considered a tricky obstacle to clean up for future directors, or the period of Doctor Who that nobody talks about.

[@Sillimant_]

We should just all agree the chibnall era is non canon

[@oliverasensio9429]

Sillimant that’s what I do. The 12th Doctor regenerated into another version of 13 (who is not played by wittaker who I don’t think is the right choice for the character) and had actual good adventures that make sense and don’t ruin William Hartnell’s legacy.

[@Dcart5]

@@Sillimant_ Already done that ...

[@JBexplores]

Hopefully 12 wakes up in series 13, he’s had a long dream.

[@ryanbach9929]

There was a gas leak in the TARDIS.

[@Dragonblade722]

It's sad because the concept of "the timeless child" could have worked with a bit more care. Imagine, discovering that the foundation of Time Lord regeneration and time travel technology being due to the discovery of an immortal entity that was discovered by the TL's. Imprisoned, tortured and experimented upon for billions of years only to escape. Now the Doctor has a new antagonist to contend with. An angry eldritch entity that can change its appearance, appear anywhere in all of time and space and never truly die. Chibnall decided he didn't want to use old villains so here you go.

[@NiallMofo]

that would still kinda retcon the existence of river song tho. i mean madame kovarian did manipulate melody's dna, but the fact that she was concieved in the tardis and therefore exposed to the time vortex also plays a huge part in her being a time lord :/

[@MichaelO2000]

​@@NiallMofo The Timeless Child was thrown through the boundary, which seems to be a gateway OF the time vortex. The Timeless Child's original species could have been the ones who had discovered regeneration through the time vortex, meaning River Song can still make sense, but the Timelords just stole that power and claimed it as their own discovery.

[@adamhussain1207]

The master should have been the Timeless Child

[@NiallMofo]

@@adamhussain1207 I mean technically it still can be the master🤷🏼‍♀️

[@angeartss1339]

I would kill to haVE A CHARACTER LIKE THIS IN THE SHOOOOW

[@DubiousMints]

That crack in the wall should reopen and series 11 and 12 should fall into it

[@charmedrools1]

s..series 11 and 12? what are you talking about? we've just finished 10.. T'Doctor just regenerated into a woman and i'm optimistic, i've seen her act, she's a solid actor. and do you know my father went to school with her cousin or something like that (maybe my father's cousin went to school with her? i always forget cuz i stopped paying attention to him boasting about it). great to have a bit o'northern blood on screen that ISN'T Scottish.

[@DubiousMints]

@@charmedrools1 the writing quality gets a lot worse, there's no good monsters or storylines in series 11, and the 13th Doctor isn't very well written. Series 12 is an improvement from series 11, but it's still not as good as any of the previous series, and one of the series 12 episodes is considered to be the worst episode ever. Generally, the concepts in the series are good, just they aren't produced to a decent standard.

[@charmedrools1]

@@DubiousMints n..no i know.. i was.. th.. is too hot. im not gonna woosh ya but.. eugh! you get it right?

[@Sillimant_]

@@charmedrools1 we're not saying she isn't a good actor, just that chibnall is a hack who can't write for shit

[@charmedrools1]

@@Sillimant_ we all know that. she's amazing in some of her stuff.

[@elliottbentley6904]

When Clara falls through time and helps the doctor at all points in the doctors life. Where was she when this shit happened

[@Aexorak]

@Just some Forest Ranger with Internet Access i agree. Clara saw this doctor and said, fuck it. Nope

[@rodrigobueno8652]

gosh i didn't realizie this plot hole lol timeless chidlren create so many

[@mattia4165]

@@rodrigobueno8652 Have you heard the River Song plothole yet? If not just ask yourself, why can she regenerate?

[@rodrigobueno8652]

​@@mattia4165yeah i guess it complciate how she became time lady too, but river one is easily handwaved, the clara one is huge

[@JHMninja89]

@@mattia4165 Wasn't it because River was conceived in the TARDIS? So she got some of that magic.

[@jakest123]

If there absolutely *has* to be a Timeless child, make it so that the Master told the Doctor she was the timeless child so she could suffer the confusion and distress he felt when he found out it was him. *Or* just make it a ruse he made up to torture her, or an expression of his power. *Or* just have the next showrunner with a brain make it non-canon.

[@kieranmartin3597]

Completely agree with it being non-cannon I think the new seasons would make a very good legend but an absolutely terrible cannon. The best we can hope for is the new show runner going "chibnalls seasons are now legend and my doctor will be taking place after Peter capaldis regeneration"

[@adamhussain1207]

THIS. I always thought that the master should have been the timeless child

[@mimimimimi6842]

If we are even going to have a next showrunner... im lowkey scared that chibnall is killing the series for good

[@leocervidae]

I’ve been telling myself the exact same thing!! That the master has just made all this up to torture the doctor, for being a shit doctor and not helping them after missy.

[@joshualee9831]

@@kieranmartin3597 oh my god, that would be so much better. Imagine the doctor introducing them self and a side character just whispers “they say they are a child unaffected by time, with unlimited faces” or something like that

[@AlistairAi]

*"Degenerate underachiever"* _Finally a character I can relate to_

[@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770]

Old Doctor: ordinary, average Time Lord who eventually rose to the level of a great hero through years of experience. Chibnall's Doctor: super special magic space god who led to the founding of their very race.

[@chadlofts7926]

Have you heard of "The Other"? The Cartmel Masterplan? “Oh, Davros, I am far more than just another Time Lord.” - The 7th Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks

[@bradstraker9487]

@@chadlofts7926 You mean the masterplan they scrapped cos it was a stupid idea

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Who said that? There's no implication of that anywhere in the story. Literally, none. Also, it's made very clear that the incarnations pre-Hartnell are not the Doctor. There are part of who the person that was. And Hartnell's incarnation grew up with no knowledge of that. As Harbo admits in video, this is all supposition he's pulling. No more or less is said about the number of regens than was in Time, the Doctor has no more abilities than Timelords have (even Rassilon cheekily kept himself unlimited in regenerations - see Five Doctors - so that's true even on that point), the Doctor is still fallable, the Doctor is not a chosen one (really, where is that thought coming from? Only responsible for regeneration... not all of Timelord society. There's at least six other Founders in there and this story respects that.), the Doctor is not invincible and regenerations are still a death of some form - I don't get why End of Time was raised in this video as to me, it rather defeats the argument that Harbo was trying to make, on a mental and philosophical level. I'm pretty sure the Doctor is not omnipotent. The examples given for healing are moot - Christmas Invasion is a selfheal with 24 hour caveat, tAtM only works because River is part Timelord and he's got a bit spare of her cycle that she gave to him in LKH, and Doctor Dances is shown but doesn't even remotely mention a connection to regeneration - and trying to say that the Doctor is special and one of a kind is rather a presumption... given that, you know, we know absolutely nothing of the Timeless Child species.

[@chadlofts7926]

@@bradstraker9487 Only due to the axing of the series. It was then continued into the books as they wanted to keep the idea going.

[@Auron1Roxas2]

Moron the doctor isn't a super special magic space god. They're a victim of a race that exploited their natural abilities for themselves and erased that child's memories. You idiots are so stupid.

[@Mike_Dubo]

Two words: Dream Lord. Bring back this weirdo from 11's tenure, and you could retcon almost everything, up to right after Capaldi regenerates.

[@NiallMofo]

OMG yes. yes. please. what't he up to these days anyways? get him back or the dream crabs. i don't care. just erase the last 2 seasons of doctor who. thank you.

[@hmshood319]

@@NiallMofo I wonder how the Dream Lord and the dream crabs would interact, cos it reminds me of the DW novel Harvest Of Time with the Master and some mind control crabs.

[@cardwitch91]

Capaldi stumbles out of the shower and says, "Ooo River I just had a terrible dream!"

[@katarinabrunk8698]

@@cardwitch91 lol 😂, ngl that would be funny

[@DarkLordMorningstar]

I love most that you call them "this weirdo."

[@Me__Myself__and__I]

"Chibnall ... has claimed the current story is one he came up with when he was a kid" - Yeah, that figures. It seems as well written and throught out as a story written by a child.

[@Jthomas-gg9pi]

Why would you use that especially considering that there’s huge amounts of new canon

[@thejohnquixote]

Hmm... so maybe it is Chibnil who is the timeless child :D

[@civilstoat]

@@thejohnquixote Tactless child*

[@Brandon.Reacts]

Chibnall is truly the doctor’s worst enemy

[@DubiousMints]

The abzorbaloff was made by children, its still better than chibnalls crap

[@ninjii1236]

People while moffat was director: man Clara sucks People now: a n y t h i n g b u t t h i s

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

More like this: Fans when Davies is director: THIS GUY SUCKS BRING BACK CLASSIC WRITERS Fans when Moffat is director: THIS GUY SUCKS BRING BACK DAVIES Fans when Chibnall is director: THIS SUCKS BRING BACK MOFFAT

[@izzakhalid2495]

Its so annoying when people do that - i genuinely enjoyed all of those series and Clara was a great character - at least the show was still inspiring energetic and emotional

[@Elusivehawk]

I'll take 5 seasons of Clara over this crap. At least Clara's pretty, but this is just molesting the entire premise of the show.

[@dekaritheprofessor2631]

Facts!

[@ValiantWrestling]

Director? Moffat was a producer, learn the difference.

[@ashbridgeindustries380]

The simplest way to fix it in my opinion would be to make the Master the Timeless Child. He seems impossible to get rid of. We've only seen him regenerate onscreen ONCE, yet he always manages to come back from certain death. Makes way more sense that the Timeless Child is actually him.

[@erikhughes6012]

Agree. Master - to mean masterfile base code for timelords. He is the timeless child and the experimentation lead to his madness. Doctors memories were erased and when revealed, turns out he was responsible for it leading to the doctor questioning everything. But he did it to save his gallyfrean kin. Any other blips in continuity explained by master and doctor having memories implanted/altered. Fixed it.

[@Cats_Gaming]

And the fugitive "doctor" is a post Dhawan incarnation of the master who regenerated to sell the narrative to the doctor

[@KingKeanuTheFirst]

The Doctor has infinite regenerations, yet needed to be granted more regenerations.

[@eriong.7446]

We don't know if he has infinite regenerations, but if he does, Time Lords had to put up a light show for him or 12(or 13) would have been very surprised to have regenerated and would have gone searching for answers :D

[@shayla106]

Erion G. Nope, doesn’t work. But even if it dead, it means his past companions died for nothing.

[@eriong.7446]

Shayla Nash IF he has infinite regenerations. But no one said he does, even if this is his original universe and the Master doesn’t lie. There are many-many possibilities that would solve all the contradictions that so far are only there in the minds of the fandom based on suppositions. That said I hope it’s not the Doctor’s original universe AND the master lied, I also dislike it when new writers try to reinterpret the past, there should be a law against it, even if it is done in a logical way. I just hope it won’t turn out to be some prophetic warning when they said that the question (Doctor Who?) must never be answered or silence must fall.

[@utdfergie26]

I see 2 possibilitys 1) timelords restricted the doctors regeneration limit to 12 same as other timelords 2) the doctor has infinite regenerations but memory of this has been suppressed and subconsciously believes 12 is the limit (this could explain the light show in time of the doctor as 11 in his mind cannot and does not believe regeneration process can start hence why he agedand not change until "reset")

[@jondoe230]

He's regenerated 40 times so the whole limited regeneration with time lords is crap. No matter what the doctor was always going to break how many times regeneration can happen because they will milk the show for as long as possible.

[@zinoxechill]

"The Doctor is a child with infinite regenerations" Trenzalore: Is that why The Doctor is buried here?

[@MorganSaph]

Even if he got more lives, his timeline and TARDIS both die there. (Though he *theoretically*, but not likely, could have become like Clara and had his time frozen at the time of his death).

[@zinoxechill]

@Cinq Well are you forgetting after that? The 50th Anniversary 11 tells 10 they're going to trenzalore, where The Doctor is buried. Just kinda meaning thats the end of his timeline, not just the 11th doctors timeline

[@zinoxechill]

@Cinq Well if Trenzalore wasnt much of a worry why bring it up to your past self. He made it sound like they're going to die there, like he now knows where hes going to end

[@GermanLeftist]

@@zinoxechill Trenzalore was supposed to be the end of the Doctor's timeline. But it isn't anymore. The Time Lord's changed that by giving him new regenerations. The Name of the Doctor now didn't really happen anymore but in the memories of those involved because the Doctor didn't longer die on Trenzalore.

[@zinoxechill]

@@GermanLeftist Ahhh i get it

[@StuBonham]

I'm still hoping that in series 14, Peter Capaldi wakes up, and the 13th Doctor was all a nightmare brought on by an excess of rock guitar

[@erikburzinski8248]

And bad LSD

[@coolman113a9]

This is what I’m saying

[@jeangentry6656]

I'm no Whovian, but if The Doctor is truly immortal now, and there is no threat to his/her existence, doesn't that also cheapen the death of people who died for him, like River Song, when she died in that library episode?

[@cryptozoomauler5505]

I should think so, yes.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Who said immortal though? Where did this story ever say that?

[@JoyKirbs]

Jay Dragonarc Productions infinite regeneration, infinite lives. No way to die through normal means.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@JoyKirbs Erm, no - that's not what was said at all. There's no mention of the Timeless Child's regeneration capabilities beyond that it is more than 13. You're confusing the fact that the Master has commandeered dead Timelord bodies in the Cyberman shells to give his CyberLords what he calls endless regeneration. That is rather in keeping with the fact that Rassilon's body, at the point of death, was placed by Rassilon in "timeless perpetual bodily regeneration" (Five Doctors). Dead Timelord bodies work differently when you remove the limit, it seems, and Rassilon seemed to keep that secret rather well. But the Master has spent enough time in the Matrix - and then with the Cyberium in his head - that he is able to figure it out. Simple. The only addition to the canon is that there is now a slight implication that Rassilon's "timeless perpetual bodily regeneration" came about because of his own tampering with the genetics that had been bestowed upon him by the Timeless Child analysis. Anything beyond that is simple conjecture. You're also ignoring that regeneration can be very much halted if one is injured or killed again during the process. That's not changed either.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@Haku infinite I rather think I'm saving it from being buried alive by folk who seem convinced for whatever reason it's dead. Even when I present valid counterarguments to them...

[@TheWarpForge]

I can fix this issue with two sentences: How to fix the events in The Timeless Child: It was a diversion of the Time Lords to throw the Master off course to find Gallifrey. They still live in their pocket dimension and everything the Master found was fake and he unknowingly roped the Doctor into the trick. Done. Now they just need to implement this into the series.

[@TheWarpForge]

@MrDanJohn97 That's a point, to fix Ruth all she needs to be is a Doctor from a Parallel Universe that the Timelords stole to enact their Deterrent from anyone finding Galifrey, and she's been in Status until recent events.

[@alanpena8643]

Brilliant way to get out of this mess that chibnal has made.

[@benjaminkingsley-jones7832]

The Warp Forge genius. I’m not sure how the doctor could have memories of those events left, but the timelords did have the ability to alter memories (as seen in Capaldi forgetting Clara) and it isn’t too much of a stretch to say they set up a trap in their archives.

[@crotasonoforyx5330]

I think this all happened in a parallel universe...

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Surely that wouldn't quite gel with the fact that it's surely still where it was when Simm Master left it post-End of Time?

[@crzgangster8721]

What would've made more sense if they HAD to include a timeless child. The timeless child should've been The Master. It would've explained his hatred for everything and Gallifrey and being the lover of chaos. But in my mind, this whole timeless child thing was a huge mistake and Chris Chibnall should've never been allowed complete power of the show.

[@koalafromtomorrow5656]

Yes it would make sense for IT to be the master and the doctor very first form freed him but not unlimited regerstind but just regeneration and the dofcot freed him and the doctor father esresd his son memory for plausible deabmiy and then the reason the master doesn't hate the doctor is made clear and the time Lord figured out to give species regeneration by using the time vortex after numerous exprmient and the master reveals the he did what he did to make the doctor follow him to fix the morsske in the world

[@yamiatemyugi]

I originally thought the Timeless Child was the Master when I saw the video on Facebook. I have my own theories about it though. What if the Doctor wanted to be more than just the Timeless Child so she forgot she was the Timeless Child though things did leak through, such as the name and the rules. If no one was able to find her than maybe she would be able to make a name for herself outisde of the Timeless Child. The Council likely never bothered to learn the name she was calling herself during that time. Maybe she used a name that had a similar meaning to The Doctor but was different enough that The Council wouldn’t know The Doctor was the Timeless Child and she coudl do whatever she wanted (insert my comment here becuse I’m not retyping it again)

[@amyshaw893]

I honestly thought that's what it was building to throughout the climax of the episode

[@Polavianus]

The Master ran out of regeneration in The Deadly Assasins

[@AngelSaintCloud]

It can't be the master because the master had already been given a predestination cursed by the time Lords. "The POUNDING in his head was a beacon to time war."

[@BigTarb]

The thing that made doctor who interesting to me is the fact that he was just a madman with a box helping out

[@CardiffOneOne]

No, he was never a madman with a box. That was a stupid glib description foisted on the character by a showrunner who really didn't understand the character or the programme at all.

[@Drp_br_]

@@CardiffOneOne you wish Chinball fan

[@hughjass2640]

@@CardiffOneOne That's exactly who the character is.

[@akodaah13-e32]

@@hughjass2640 literally, like, even the doctor says it I... AM... an idiot, with a box and a screwdriver... Passing through... helping out... the doctor is just a mad man with a box and harmless equipment... just that...

[@Drp_br_]

@@akodaah13-e32 never have I seen a “whovian” back up ruining the show’s history and one who looks like he is still in high school at age 43… (…that guy World of stuff)

[@giladzxc17]

Nobody: Chibnall: "im gonna make a story so bad that love and monsters would look like a masterpiece next to it"

[@NiallMofo]

AHAHAHA omg this is the comment i didn't know i needed

[@gooseincrocs]

i love this 😂😂😂

[@akodaah13-e32]

well, love and monsters isn't T H A T bad, just a messy episode THAT CAN BE FIXED, but this... welllll..... ufff

[@anotherrandominternetguy404]

@@akodaah13-e32 at least it didnt mess up the whole show

[@FromJamestime]

Love and Monsters has always looked like a masterpiece and no-one can convince me otherwise.

[@alkrolyd]

I remember hearing somewhere that the Doctor scraped a 51% in his entrance exam into the Academy

[@HarboWholmes]

Yeah, that's from the Season 16 story The Ribos Operation, which also establishes that Romana achieved the highest possible grade, making her smarter than The Doctor himself (in Time Lord eyes, at least)

[@alkrolyd]

@@HarboWholmes A Triple First, I believe it was, yes.

[@HarboWholmes]

Indeed it was!

[@theultimateomelette]

and it was on the second attempt

[@GermanLeftist]

@@HarboWholmes I always saw this scene and the later development of Romana as a way of the writers at the time, who included Douglas Adams, for telling us that these tests don't necessarily mean anything. Romana was easily tricked multiple times throughout her time in the TARDIS, both as Mary Tamm and Lala Ward. The Doctor had saved Gallifrey before and afterwards for the oh so intelligent Time Lords who all think they are better than him because they got better grades but the Doctor is somebody who succeeds because he thinks outside the box - but you only succeed in standardised tests if you think inside the box. But that could just have been my own personal reading.

[@PandoraYeet]

I really like the idea that anyone can be special, not because they were born that way but because they chose to. It gives hope that anyone can be a hero no matter what.

[@HarboWholmes]

I agree! It's one of my favourite themes of the show

[@tenacious3911]

@@HarboWholmes The Doctor is a hero because he chose to be heroic, not because he was "the chosen one". In the first few stories he wasn't conventionally heroic, over the course of Season 1 he changes from a bitter exile to the hero we all know and love.

[@tenacious3911]

lol, I posted that before watching the whole video where you make exactly that point XD

[@romelmunoz7957]

@@HarboWholmes: but this origin is millenials' wet dream... The nobody who in reality is the most important and special person in the world.

[@HarboWholmes]

Ah, millennials, the boogeymen of the internet (even though you probably mean Gen Z, but I guess boomer sheep mentality breeds this kinda stuff, doesn't it). How dare young people want to be told that they can do good things even if they're average

[@tomharding127]

Having the Master as the Timeless Child would have added so much to his/her story. Keep in mind that the first Master seen on screen was the 13th incarnation. He’s been treated horribly by the time-lords. He would’ve had the ability to regenerate stripped from him- only to look into the vortex to give it back. He’s been shunned, abused and treated like shit. Imagine if this was the Time-Lord’s reason for existing. Brutal.

[@JoseDKira11]

“No second chances” that was the line that made me love Doctor who, it wasn’t even the first episode, I knew he was the Hero and he was learning as he goes. Now he is “the chosen one” yeah I don’t care, there’s billions of stories where “the chosen one” is the protagonist. My Doctor was an alien that stole a Tardis and went on an adventure.

[@ambuknight]

Who Feel in love with earth after being exiled to it and went on SO MANY wild DEEP ADVENTURES. They really should have left it on Peter's doctor. They should have let his doctor die, let the Gailifreys find his tardis and Him. They take him back home and give him a simple funereal, not a flashy one just a simple one for the doctor was a simple troublemaker who has lived through hell and back again. And made all the best choices he can make. And felt great love for all he cared for.

[@tiny_rose9761]

But he is special and unique to different people for different reasons! Like I’m special to my mum because I’m her daughter, but I’m special to my friend because I’m her friend. And it doesn’t matter that my friend might see me differently, because everyone is seen differently by each and every person. By adding this back story it makes the doctor more special, because she left a life she did not enjoy, and she was never treated like royalty, she was still a time lord. On the outside no different to anyone else, but it’s still the actions she took that make her who she is. 7 billion people on the earth. And you could be the oldest man, but your still a person and the main characters go you (ie your family, like the doctors companions) still see you differently!

[@DaDunge]

Technically the doctor offers everyone a second chance. He always gives them his warning "Stop now or I will stop you" and if they stopped he would let them have their second chance. It's when they turn him down they don't get any more chances.

[@hellacoorinna9995]

A raggedy bohemian who went around righting wrongs.

[@shaunolsen8268]

Clearly The Doctor is still in the Confession Dial and everything that has happened is some part of his 4.5 billion year dilemma.

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

Why can’t you just accept the fact that the show doesn’t do everything you personally expected of it

[@bradleyscarffpiano2921]

I remember Moffat saying that during the doctors very first run in the confession dial, before they set alll the clues in motion he used up all his regenerations to survive. so that's now impossible.

[@Nope-en9bo]

Landlighter Firestar Didn’t personally expect shit, was still disappointed.

[@NiallMofo]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 i didn't have any expectations except for... you know... the lore of the show to be respected lol

[@billyhewson4084]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 bruh this is just garbage

[@korbyshep6934]

Chibnall didn’t just retcon the character of what or who the character is but he also spat in the faces of all the work RTD and SM did. Well done

[@FoxLosst]

Hopefully RTD can at least sorta fix it now

[@azapro911]

To be fair, Moffat made RTD's Time War and the loss of Gallifrey irrelevant across twenty minutes of 'Hell Bent'.

[@selinawalsh9075]

@@azapro911 That was different tho, DotD carried on from that plot by having it conclude with a bang, while Hell Bent intentionally has the Doctor not give a shit about being back on Gallifrey because he's too 'hell bent' on saving Clara, it's an intentional flaw of the Doctor's decision making and priorities, rather than a retcon that shreds the foundations of the lore.

[@FoxCastleChild]

Yeah, the Timeless Child totally should have been Susan. She remains to this day one of the great mysteries of Doctor Who. It would have explained a reason for why the Doctor took her with him when he fled Gallifrey if she was a child who had been tortured for her powers for centuries. It also would have been a cool surprise for old fans to see a returning character in a new regeneration and a good surprise for new fans that the Doctor has an adoptive grand daughter. The IDEA of the Timeless child isn't bad: that the Timelords tortured a helpless being for her powers and stole them, and then the Doctor needing to find their identity and help them in the next season. What breaks it is the Doctor himself/herself being the Timeless child as it wrecks the character and creates numerous plot holes.

[@GermanLeftist]

That might still happen. Not only are our main source of information about the Doctor really being the Timeless Child the Master and the Matrix, one being a villain who lies constantly and the other a machine that has been proven to be able to be rather easily manipulated in the past, the Doctor themselves could have been the one who manipulated the Matrix in their own past. They were the Lord President once, with complete access to the Matrix. And McCoy clearly had memories that neither regeneration prior or after still had. So the Doctor forgetting stuff and being able to manipulate the Matrix are not far fetched concepts. If Hartnell knew who Susan was and later forgot, maybe Baker rediscovered it, manipulated the Matrix into the evidence of the true identity of the Timeless Child leading to him and then forgot once more, and then the Master stumbled onto this false evidence and of course reached the false conclusion from it.

[@Mithcoriel]

​@@GermanLeftist What are these memories McCoy had? I haven't watched that many 7th doctor episodes.

[@GermanLeftist]

@@Mithcoriel It was never really touched upon in the TV series directly, only slightly hinted at, mainly in Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, The Curse of Fenric and Ghost Light. In all of these serials we get a little hint at the Doctor always knowing stuff before it happens, refering to himself or being refered to as "more than just another Time Lord". Unlike all the other Doctors he doesn't get thrown into a situation unprepared, he always, or at least most of the time, knows what is going on. In Ghost Light he even states outright "there is so much going on, even I can't control it all". All of this were just hints, the groundwork laid for the Cartmel Masterplan.

[@MrAllallalla]

I don't need a nostalgia bait retcon mystery box. I think it being Susan would somehow be worse. Reminds me of Clara being the center of the doctor's life.

[@alphamineron]

Oh My God they didn’t torture the child, what the hell are you watching? The regeneration experiments were genetic experiments, if you knew a tiny bit of shit about biology you’d know it’s nothing like torture. This isn’t 20th or 19th or 18th or any other old human century we are talking about where medical experiments were performed by drilling holes into people and killing the subjects.... wtf And the brain-washing shit of Brian, all that was part of the Division. A secret TimeLord organization that the Timeless Child joined willingly just as the intelligence agents of our world

[@ChannelPup]

Yeah I feel this. It’s the idea that the whole “the Doctor formed Gallifrey” idea that bothers me more than anything else.

[@HarboWholmes]

Whoa, never expected to see a comment from you, haha! Yeah, I really don't like that The Doctor is very reason Time Lords exists, it's just unnecessary

[@ChannelPup]

Harbo Wholmes KZbin recommended your video to me until I had the chance to watch it. You know what that means? KZbin likes you and I’ve got every confidence going by this video that you’ll be a smash hit. Keep up the great work.

[@HarboWholmes]

Yeah, my last two videos definitely seem to have caught fire! And thank you! That's quite the glowing endorsement 😄

[@Deception975]

@@HarboWholmes It wouldn't be the first time the Doctor was stated to have a hand in creating their society.

[@DrPandachaun]

The brief comments that the Tenth Doctor made about growing up with the master on Gallifrey was ALL the backstory I needed. I loved the fact that their childhood friendship was shrouded in mystery and that we never truly knew who either of them were. Because despite them always being at odds you never got the feeling that they truly hated each other - if anything their relationship just felt like a sibling rivalry. But now that its canon that the Doctor grew up being experimented on, it makes you wonder when he and the master ever grew up together? It creates a lot of plot holes and problems - because how can the doctor remember growing up with the master and running through fields of red grass as a child if the Doctor can't remember any of her regenerations prior to William Hartnell? Because the Ruth Doctor is fully grown up - she can't have been the one to run through the fields of gallifrey with the master - because the Doctor wouldn't remember it. The more I think about the timeless child bullshit the more it hurts my brain.

[@marshallhuffer4713]

Not to mention how in "The Name of the Doctor", Clara did not meet any of these previous Doctors either, what would mean that they would have had to have been removed from the Doctor's actual time-stream, what obviously makes no sense!

[@xGOKOPx]

I hate the Timeless Child twist as much as you, but you're wrong here. Doctor was forced back into a child when their memories were erased.

[@robmbms]

That all still happened though…

[@joshbishop7134]

I cannot wait till someone else, literally anybody else, gets a hold of this show... please

[@lorekeeper685]

Writer needs to be better new doctor would be nice too

[@smokeyweiner6547]

@@lorekeeper685 it's not the girl it's the writers shes fantastic the writers aren't

[@RustyARMPIT12]

@@smokeyweiner6547 so true, I wish people would stop hating on Whittaker for chibnalls mistake

[@BluRobyn]

They need better writers

[@mistamysteriuh]

Yeah apparently the next one is an old bag with Tennant as her companion, I don't think chibby's getting it into his head

[@tenacious3911]

I don't think its actually been that divisive: the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative.

[@HarboWholmes]

Yeah. When I wrote this video I was still seeing some positive reactions, but it seems like it has swung more towards more negative since

[@tenacious3911]

@@HarboWholmes The positive reactions were largely from very young fans who didn't know much about the lore and somehow think bringing up The Brain of Morbius immediately vindicates Chibnall when that interpretation was never a widely believed one. Even the Cartmel Master Plan accepted Hartnell was the First Doctor and that the additional faces belonged to one of the Doctor's previous lives (the mysterious Other) before the First Doctor was born.

[@HarboWholmes]

Well, on Gallifrey Base there were a lot of positive reactions and the main userbase of that forum were fans during Classic Who, so I don't think it's exclusive to 'young fans.' I agree about Brain of Morbius not being hard evidence that there were previous Doctors, but I suspect the combination of Morbius and the Cartmel Masterplan was what inspired Chibnall to write this story, as he grew up in that era and he has claimed the current story is one he came up with when he was a kid

[@tenacious3911]

@@HarboWholmes Gallifrey Base are a bit.... odd... at times, most of the membership rubberstamp or at least handwave very controversial decisions without much debate. I'm surprised Chibnall would admit to something like that, I had a lot of fanfiction ideas when I was a kid, but I'd be embarrassed to treat them seriously now.

[@bradstraker9487]

hahahaha you sure you watched the same show - Doctor who is completely dead now! There is no way back from this garbage unless they re-retcon it...which they wont. It completely destroys canon. And if there is no canon or lore then the whole show becomes 100% worthless. So thatll be dead merchandise (it's pretty much dead anyway) - Dead licensing and Dead show!

[@Squantle]

I wasn’t just “unhappy” about The Timeless Children. I was honestly infuriated. The fact that I’m here watching this video now proves I still am to an extent. My patience with the Chibnall era had long run out, but the excitement of Fugitive of the Judoon was just enough to keep me watching. The show genuinely feels utterly irreparable at this point and I can definitely guarantee I’ll never be tuning in to a new episode for the foreseeable future.

[@mistamysteriuh]

I'm with you all the way, fugitive of the judoon was the only decent episode out of the series just because of John Barrow man's return, I'm just enraged he never came back in this episode it would make sense if he was in it because his younger self could have gone back in time to warn the companions. Not to mention carrying the episode, jodie is here to shut up feminists, Bradley Walsh being in it is what got me through the entire series 11, the new master is a joke, I think we can both agree that John Simm was the best master ever, honestly this episode is going down as the single worst episode ever

[@Squantle]

@@mistamysteriuh I actually prefer Michelle Gomez and Roger Delgado over John Simm and I think your feminist comment is problematic. I think Jodie was a huge miscast, but that has nothing to do with her gender. If anything, Chibnall wasted the huge inevitable viewership opportunity of a gender switch on a bad script and cast.

[@mistamysteriuh]

@@Squantle eh, sure

[@leocervidae]

@@mistamysteriuh Captian Jack is such an effortlessly good character he makes all of the other characters, including the doctor just look flat... Like he interacted with everyone perfectly, and in such a natural way but everyone around him felt so stiff and just bad. It made me realise how bad the characters in the last couple of seasons have been.

[@robinlillian9471]

One day, Dr. Who will be rebooted. The Doctor will wake up from regeneration sickness, examine himself very carefully, and say," I'm still a man. Thank goodness. I feel like I was in that episode of Dallas."

[@Payne2view]

The trouble too is that The Master can't be The Timeless Child because they have been seen to struggle with regenerating or not be able to in the Classic episodes. Its all a mess.

[@honoramongscars649]

How about the Doctor's Granddaughter?

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@honoramongscars649 I deeply wanted the hybrid to be Susan

[@rudyproductions4557]

Unless said trouble was a result on biological modifications by the Time Lords, trying to cripple him

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@Haku infinite It's almost as if this was an idea from a fanfiction someone came up with in the 80s

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@Haku infinite Ah very subtle, I see what you did there. Turning to the camera did you by any chance script edit Orphan 55?

[@zinoxechill]

Yknow if The Master was the Timeless child i wouldnt be angry, have you seen this man's history. Every doctors regeneration despite the fx was a regular regeneration (yes even tom bakers) The master has literally died, body snatched, and came out of nowhere. What if he saw the truth through the Untempered Schism, to know he's just a tool used by the timelords even though he's their creator. Ive only really seen the master regenerate ACTUALLY once. Like he's been legit RESSURRECTED like some demon during the End of time

[@SchardtCinematic]

I thought the bbc had a rule that the doctors origins and name could never be revealed and chinball broke that rule. Also this negates Turn Left where he actually died.

[@xheralt]

Not to mention Trenzalore, where we see the aftermath of the Doctor's death.

[@SchardtCinematic]

@@xheralt yeah that is something else that should not have been written either

[@Deception975]

But also, the 12 regenation limit was something Rassilon himself created. It wasn't a thing before the 4th Doctor. It could have very well been the case they had put the same limit on the Doctor. I mean, just remember she (Jodi's Doctor) had a fob watch containing her memories, like 10 did when he was John Smith. It could very well be, that they turned her into a Time Lord, instead of her physically being a "Timeless Child race." And speaking of the other person's comment of Trenzalore. Someone mentioned in another comment that Clara never saw any other past Doctors. Which is true. But also, she never ran into the Valeyard either. (edit: the Valeyard is a future evil version of the Doctor between their 12th and final incarnation from old Who) So, the problem isn't what has happened. But too many people are only looking at this on the surface level. But if the problem is the Doctor having a hand in creating the Time Lords... well, that's not a new idea either, lol. But people act like it is.

[@nikolaipaderin599]

Matt Smith Doctor: Oh sorry i just casually forgot that ive got infinite regenerations, i thought i ran out for some reason.

[@wanderingrandomer]

I'm not buying that the regeneration limit was just a cultural thing. The Doctor doesn't seem the type to abide by Time Lord rules, but he was still dying anyway. That implies to me that it was indeed a biological limit. I fully expect this Timeless Child shit to be decanonised at some point.

[@nikolaipaderin599]

@@wanderingrandomer i feel like they were born with x number of regeneration, but could transfer some to others. Hence why he was given a few more regeneration. But also I feel like the rules have changed a couple times since one point in the past other timelords mentioned his 13th regeneration

[@rogericafort]

David Tennant also must have been mistaken, when he anguished over the end of his regeneration, saying "I'm capable of so much more!!" Why cry over being left with one last life, when in fact you had a zillion more lives to go?

[@nikolaipaderin599]

@@rogericafort I thinks its cause of the whole "new man goes sauntering away" bit, like matt smith is the one who conveniently forgot he had unlimited lives

[@mayotango1317]

@@rogericafort Sometimes I think that the Tenth Doctor forgets or does not see himself as a Time Lord but as a human with depression.

[@bigbubba83]

Everyone complained that Moffat was ruining Who. Chibnall's reaction: Hold My Beer.

[@Paxneicj484]

At least with Moffat you could tell he loved the show and even when an episode was bad, there were still some good ideas. Chibnall hasn't had ANY good ideas. It's all shit.

[@tristanberry8591]

Thing is though with Moffat you can go back and watch those not so good episodes and enjoy them relatively well however going back and watching series 11 is imposible because its so disjointed and there is no character development, I genuinely believe that Chibnalls mess once he's left will take a good writer a long time to clean up

[@Paxneicj484]

@@tristanberry8591 I would love to write for Doctor Who. I'm 16 and I know how the show works. Dont know how u would become a writer though? I have though of some episode titles for a series I would write. Ep1. Planet of the clowns Ep2. The Cybermen Ep3. Invasion of the Yetis Ep4. Penlee Ep5. Anna Ep6. The Ghost of Auschwitz Ep7. Tales of a Timelord Ep8. Devils of the Atlantic There just a few ideas😅😅

[@tristanberry8591]

@@Paxneicj484 All i'd say is stay away from anything to do with auschwitz, too much red tape and possibilities of causing upset doing that kind of story

[@Aexorak]

The last season of doctor who was a mess. Theres not one memorable episode

[@GameBreaker1055]

The timeless child creates such insane plot-contradictions that I seriously have to question if Chibnall has ever even watched the show he was writing for! 11 was dying of old age! If he had been able to regenerate, that would have happened. Only after he was granted new ones, did the regeneration even start! And Clara did not meet any of the previous Doctors either, what would means that they would have had to have been removed from the Doctor's actual time-stream, what obviously makes no sense! It also appears that NO ONE on Gallifrey knew about that, what means that all of the original timelords must have been dead, however that happened! I also feel so very sorry for Whitaker whose performance was one of the view things keeping me somewhat entertained... Can you imagine being the first woman to play the Doctor, put on a very good performance and than have to follow such lousy scripts?

[@jackguy564]

^this^ Tbh I hope they change it so that the Master was lying and in reality the Timeless Child was a separate entity entirely, which would allow for an interesting moral conflict over regeneration between the Doctor and the Master. The Doctor could become reluctant to regenerate again bc she'd see it as abusing a power gained by the time lords torturing a child, whereas the Master would wish to use it more because he'd see it as his inherent right as a time lord.

[@frde2190]

@@jackguy564 that would have been such a good idea, you would have been a much better show runner than Shitnall- I mean Chibnall.

[@cerulean22b69]

I agree, Jodie Whitaker is my new favorite Doctor, I wish she had much better scripts.

[@GameBreaker1055]

@Sig probably my phones autocorrect.

[@theagg]

@@jackguy564 Well, a new showrunner could easily retcon the Timeless Child into oblivion, so here's hoping Chibnall's eventual successor will do just that

[@manis1551]

I don't think The Doctor being the Timeless Child really adds anything to the show or to the character herself and Chibnall simply did it for shock value. I'm not happy that Chibnall used the Chosen One trope for the Doctor as it undermines the First Doctor and it pretty much means that the Doctor has always been special since birth which kinda makes the character boring now imo.

[@HarboWholmes]

Yeah, it definitely reeks of 'shock first, story later.'

[@thefallenchaoskeeper]

I kinda disagree. There is a point (though I agree they probably didn’t consider it and likely just wanted shock value) to doing something like this. It is difficult to explain, and my lack of... skill, when describing things like this doesn’t help either, but I think the situation can be salvaged. Take stories where the hero, despite being special, isn’t... well... ugh. Ok, so I can’t really explain it but take something like Steven Universe for example. Steven was always “special”, then he was revealed to be FAR more special than that, and had to deal with it all. The Doctor was always special, always different; but now they have to deal with THIS. They have to deal with being the Hybrid, the Timeless Child, the Oncoming Storm, the Doctor. Take this how you will.

[@sarge1408]

That's one of the things you have to try and avoid as a writer. If you put in something for simple shock value, and it doesn't add to the plot or ever brought up again, then it's not a good thing. Imagine if it was revealed that I had stolen Wyoming's Time Distortion unit from Meta's suit after that Bluetard dumped it. I have something that can distort time and yet it's never brought up again. It makes no sense.

[@TheTrueSpottedStripe]

@@sarge1408 Sarge? I didn't know you were a whovian.

[@sarge1408]

@@TheTrueSpottedStripe It's always interesting. Its a favorite of mine to watch. It's second to punching Grif.

[@OzBaxter]

The Timeless Child is Susan Foreman, his "granddaughter". He stole her when the incarnation we know was an infant, and ran away to save her from further subjugation by the Time Lords (and later the Daleks in the Time War). He hid her on Earth. She looked like them. She had learned to act like them in the 1960's England. What better place to hide a tree than in a forest?

[@James.B.Russell]

And of course leaving her on post-apocalyptic Earth would make her identity so much more unassuming in the grand scheme of things. Susan being the Timeless Child would be genius. Even Susan's history with the Other in the expanded universe imply her being a much older being than the Doctor himself.

[@AlistairAi]

This is one of the reasons why I would like to get into Big Finish stories over New Who, it seems like these theories and statements make more sense. I sorta wish Capaldi stayed on and Susan made a return to go back to a Classic/Early New Who vibe.

[@James.B.Russell]

Susan did say in the first episode that she coined the name TARDIS, so there can be some interesting stuff they can do with her. Susan's actress Carole Ann Ford has expressed interest in returning. If they were to do it right, they can have her back on the show, build up some mystery about her, and maybe have her regenerate so we can reintroduce the character without having an off-screen regeneration that would seem disrespectful to the original actress.

[@KRYMauL]

@@James.B.Russell I think they should continue the Timeless Child story and have Susan save the Doctor then reveal you're not the TImeless Child Doctor, I am. Then she regenerates.

[@SubaruPieter]

I would be okay with this. Becouse the Doctor is the Doctor; the man who chose to be kind, and not becouse he was meant to

[@baconster9924]

Undoubtedly the Timeless Child is the greatest mistake of the entire shows history

[@twitchascension]

To quote Russell T Davies: "This isn’t quite so exciting now that we know 557 other Doctors could have turned up here"

[@MrThorfan64]

U do realise RTD probably wasnt attacking Chibnall, it was a joke. He called Moffat miserable in a tweet but they dont hate each other.

[@twitchascension]

@@MrThorfan64 hate is a rather strong word, but I feel like the guy who successfully revived the series has a thing to say about the person who has driven the ratings to the lowest they've been since the show got cancelled while urinating all over established lore.

[@MrThorfan64]

@@twitchascension Urinating over lore? By that logic thats what many other writers do. You think its all Chibnall but ratings were already dropping. You are just trying to find fault in your claim that RTD hates Chibnall. RTD hasnt been screaming abuse at Chibnall like you seem to think he's been.

[@twitchascension]

@@MrThorfan64 No writer has so blatantly disregarded and retconned the canon like Chibnall has. All I pointed out is that RTD made a statement on public social media that was clearly a dig at how Chibnall is handling the show. People like you talk about how the ratings were already declining, but it's funny because you're the same people who mocked the haters when "The Woman Who Fell to Earth" had 10.96 million viewers. Since his first proper episode as show-runner, the series has lost 6.27 million viewers - more than he supposedly "gained." So which is it? Did Chibnall save the show? Or did he whittle away at the remaining fans who were still watching after series 10?

[@MrThorfan64]

@@twitchascension As I keep trying to tell you RTD was not 'clearly' making a dig at Chibnall. I know this might be a difficult concept but maybe RTD doesnt hate the current direction. I would say there was increased interest as new Dr but then people went away as generally not their thing. But u cant just make these assumptions that RTD must hate show.

[@kylelloyd9468]

The master would have been a better choice. Doctor, “It’s me” Master, “NO! It’s ME!” The childhood torture and constant mind erasing easily explains the anger, hate, and insanity.

[@kylelloyd9468]

MrDanJohn97 because he didn’t know.

[@BWMagus]

But he was never insane until New Who. He was a bastard, but quite the opposite of insane.

[@samuelbarber4154]

There could've even been a cool way to reveal that part: Doctor: What happened to the child? Master: I suppose, what you could say, is that, once they learnt of the past, well, once Omega was gone and Rassilon thwarted, they rose to become, master, of Gallifrey.

[@joelwilliams1376]

Very true, the master has always thought himself better than others so it wouldn't have changed his charicter at all

[@kamenridergeiz9490]

Then Dio pops up. KONO DIO DA!

[@aperson8508]

The timeless child needs to be removed from the show

[@kayd731]

Yes 👏 please 👏

[@chuckdavidson8142]

Amen to that

[@marshallhuffer4713]

Even more, the entire Chibnall era needs to removed.

[@nightowl8477]

8:10 great point. Sometimes I think "why doesn't he just sacrifice himself every week?" but them I remember "but how many will die if he gave up his lives that quickly?" Can't think that now.

[@crimpleendoubloon]

If the Doctor does not use her infinite regenerative energy to cure all the sick, injured and dying that she encounters, she will come across as utterly heartless. That's a massive obstacle all future writers are now going to have to write around, to avoid the plot having to stop umpteen times per episode for her to lay on her glowing healing hands. A truly superb video. Every ruining detail covered. Let's hope someone at the BBC higher up than Chibnall sees this and orders a course correction. By the way, if the Division imposed a memory block, surely that means those faces must be of Morbius. It would be that same block that prevented the Daleks' mind probe seeing further back than Hartnell in Day of the Daleks and Resurrection of the Daleks.

[@madelinebell5046]

Crimpleen Doubloon Wow, I hadn’t even thought of that. You’re right. How the hell are they going to get around that little fact in future episodes?

[@BWMagus]

Regeneration energy can also blow up DALEK WARSHIPS, so...now the Doctor, who never carries a weapon, is now perpetually armed with an energy cannon capable of wiping out even the most advanced warrior race the universe ever produces. He is an immortal who can heal the sick and smite the guilty at will; he is literally a god.

[@marshallhuffer4713]

And what about how Clara jumped into the Doctor's timestream? She saws all his lives and nothing pre-Hartnell.

[@AvatarRiku]

“The Doctor isn’t a superhero or someone special. He’s just a bloke who goes around and does what he can to help people.” “That’s where you’re wrong kiddo.”

[@Shark-0987]

He’s now Jesus

[@robalexander8065]

It makes a mockery of the following exchange from The Five Doctors: Tegan: "You mean you're deliberately going on the run from your own people? In a a rackety-old TARDIS? Doctor: "Why not? After all... That's how it all started..." Thanks Chibnall!

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Ahem, may I point you firstly to line in there where Borusa says that Rassilon's final secret is that of "timeless bodily regeneration". Guess that's been made sense of now. And no, it doesn't. That is how it started. As the video points out with great labour (though I do heavily disagree with the notion that 3 is where the Doctor starts being properly the Doctor) - the Doctor was not the Doctor before then.

[@BWMagus]

@@JayDragonarcProductions Uh, yes, RASSILON had the secret of immortality, NOT THE DOCTOR. I guess that's been un-made sense of.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@BWMagus Not really. My point was that the implication of Five Docs now has an explanation where none existed before (and where NuWho was rapidly diverging from it - i.e. the Schism apparently imbuing regeneration in Timelords over billions of years and River being a surprise that didn't fit within that mythos) for what was meant by this. It now fits that Rassilon must have therefore taken Tecteun's research on the Timeless Child and however many regens they have... and decided that a: he could modify that in some form, not to give him immortality in life exactly but immortality on the edge of death (hence why he doesn't just drop that ability on folk during the Time War) & b: all Timelords should be limited to 13 lives. Essentially, the Timeless Children has more than 13 lives (but not limitless) and Rassilon's 13 lives limit was moreso to ensure that nobody else would ever get to live as long as him. (And it especially helps him in that it means there's nobody else left alive to contradict his writing of the history books) And Five Docs thus now has Rassilon's tomb really be him holding out using abuse of Tecteun's research to keep him on the edge of death in hopes that someone could resurrect him. Which does happen in BF's Time War series - they literally overwrite another Timelord with Rassilon's existence.

[@Comandate7]

Jay Dragonarc Productions So why didn't they overwrite Doctor with Rassilon since, as far as biology is concerned at least, the Doctor is another Time lord, when the Doctor was a boy? Or if the Doctor is not a Time lord biologically why would literally every scanner in the universe identify them as a Time lord? And since the Doctor knew they were the Timeless Child since their 7th incarnation ("I am much more than just another Time Lord") or that they had other lives since their 4th (Mobius) why did they continue to identify as a Time Lord after they found out what they are or seem surprised after finding the truth. And why would they choose to become the curator of a painting of Gallifrey if Gallifrey was the place of their torture? And finally when the Doctor entered their own time stream why didn't they see the lives of Ruth and the other Doctors they didn't remember or why didn't these Doctors join the calculations to save Gallifrey?

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@Comandate7 If I understand your first point correctly, the reason the Doctor isn't used to overwrite onto is rather simple. Firstly, it seems the majority if not all of the Timelords alive during the Hartnell incarnation's are not aware of this true nature. (The only implication that ever goes close to this is Hedin choosing him to be Omega's host in Arc of Infinity - but Hedin dies too soon for us to discover his reasoning for such a decision.) Secondly, because no one would dare do such a thing in normal times. The point at which the High Council overwrite somebody with Rassilon is when they're really running out of options and are willing to do absolutely anything and everything to survive. The reason why that would be the case with scanners is rather simple. Timelords are in some manner partially genetically derived from the Doctor. So their readings in a scanner are gonna look similar to the Doctor's. Since it's safe to assume that nobody has met a Timeless Child in our universe apart from the Doctor, no one would have been able to document the differences or even program a scanner to recognise what a Timeless Child is. It took Tecteun years and years to figure that out. R.e. your McCoy point - that line wasn't broadcast (see: JNT's concerns about how religious groups might miscontrue the line) so its not properly considerable for continuity. (Just as the Master being the Doctor's brother is not considerable despite the intention in Planet of Fire). If you really still wanted to push on with that line despite this, it's worth saying that we never know that any self-revelation is responsible for him saying that. Given that Seven rattles off title after title, far more than just another Timelord would fit well as referring to Davros what he is to him and the Daleks. In his mind, he would not be a simple Timelord to them, but rather he's *the* Timelord. He's the one they fear, and name, and are beaten by over and over. I'm not sure if you're asking about the Morbius faces, and whether or not Four recollects them - if so, the answer is an emphatic no. It's splinters of his subconscious that are unearthed when Morbius pushes his way through the Doctor's mind during the mindbending.

[@jakeblues875]

"Infinate number of regenerations" = More series of Doctor Who, just so they can drag it out for longer. The doctor's origin story should have been kept a mystery. That was the appeal of the character, to me.

[@willbaker6532]

To be fair its not really an origin as she's still an unknown being found on a planet

[@ableryder]

@@willbaker6532 I, personally, dont wanna know about this other dimension more. Fuck it.

[@jonathancooper4914]

Everybody remembers the mystery. Nobody remembers the explanation.

[@potsdam28]

Eleven already had gained a new set anyway so they were good for decades without this retcon.

[@charlesphillips1468]

Beginning of Series 8, "Am I a good man?" End of Series 8, "I am just an idiot with a screwdriver and a box trying to help out wherever I can."

[@GhostLightPhilosophy]

It would have been so more interesting if the Master was the child

[@jwillett7]

Yes! A little bit of the Master in the Doctor. Such a better idea.

[@honoramongscars649]

Either him or the Doctor's granddaughter.

[@chadlofts7926]

How would that explain that scene from the Brain of Morbius?

[@jwillett7]

@@chadlofts7926 They were Morbius' previous regenerations.

[@GhostLightPhilosophy]

Chad Lofts Not everything needs explaining. Can we not leave some mystery in a show called Doctor Who?

[@memnocktdevil]

This whole thing means river song couldn't have had regenerations too. The whole excuse for that was the timelords became what they did because of exposure to the time vortex and she was conceived on the tardis in flight. It's just dumb how much this ruins

[@Mithcoriel]

But then that would have already been ruined before, not by this episode?

[@Mermanticore]

Mithcoriel Well, no. Before this episode, it was understood that timelords used the untempered schism to get their regeneration powers. Now, we know that that isn’t the case. It was genetically spliced from the timeless child. And if that is the case, River Song could not have become a “timelord” because the time vortex has nothing to do with regeneration energy anymore.

[@memnocktdevil]

@@Mermanticore yeah that's what i mean. She couldn't have had regenerations. This whole timeless child thing is dumb and chinball needs a replacement.

[@BoltyLive]

It also means that River giving the doctor the last of her regeneration so (s)he can live was completely pointless, because (s)he has infinite

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

Unless the timeless child got her regenerations the same way River did. Getting conceived in the time vortex by time traveling parents.

[@Plutogram]

River song talking to The Doctor: Doctor... the word for healer and wise man, throughout the universe. We get that word from you, you know. Whovians talking to Chibnall: Garbage... the word for legacy-shattering and downright awful writing, throughout the BBC. We get that word from you, you know.

[@hmcloud8487]

Everyone: Hey! it´s getting better. *timeless children airs* Everyone: FUUUUUUUU

[@nicholascameron2761]

This captures it perfectly, there was finally some characterisation, lines were less stale, a big overarching story, teasing captain jack, a mysterious unknown doctor - oh btw everything is now pointless, the doctor is God, and river can go fuck herself, have a nice day.

[@kryten1016]

This series was a bit disappointing , not as bad as 11 but it was very flawed .☹️

[@slevinchannel7589]

I always loved how easy to compare the Sci-Fi-Worlds in Science Fiction are. The Cyber-Collectives are a great example/measurement-tool for that! Stargate has one, Star Trek has one, Doctor Who has one. You can easily see how inferior Doctor Who to Star Trek and Star Trek to Stargate is. Alone from the Effiency of those beings that basically are walking Effiency - or at least they should be. Cyberman and Dalek are actually on KZbin on Lists like "Top 10 Alien Races that are too Dumb to Exist!" And yeah, that summs it up very well. Stargates Cosmos is just more realistic and the most realistic. Star Trek is second-place. And Doctor Who? It's just so filled with Plot Holes and Dumb Alienc Races and Nonsense that it could never ever exist. Makes it all the more laughable in what state those 3 Franchises are. Stargate is just sleeping while the other 2 (3 if you count Star Wars) Self-Destruct in an amazing FIREWORK!

[@kryten1016]

personally I didn’t really like any of the episodes ( apologies to those who did) I found that spy fall part one was designed for the trailer and part two felt a bit underwhelming and all over the place. But this is just an opinion, yiu can like whatever you like.

[@miriam6686]

it would make way more sense for the master to be the timeless child - it would justify the weird mysticism associated with their regenerations, how they are able to keep coming back despite seeming gone for good. on the other hand, most of the master's regenerations are so convoluted that it would raise the question, why make it so difficult? but then, if theyre not aware of their infinite power, would they be able to use it?

[@marcrussell994]

Has anybody pointed out that this retcon also turns the whole race of time lords into child abusers.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Yeah... :-( I mean, the Time Lords aren't exactly cuddly and they've done some evil themselves, but this stupid idea makes them look like complete scumbags. The whole "super-extra-special Doctor" idea is just unworkable nonsense.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

I actually like the idea of the Master being the timeless child. The idea that this knowledge would cause him to flip out and destroy all of Gallifray makes sense for that character. Also that he would want his best friend to feel the way he did, to understand, but she reacts in a very different way. This works because the master has always been defined by what has been done to them, while the doctor has always been defined by their own actions.

[@Sorain1]

Plus it works on a simple lesson of "Wrongs done to you do not justify wrongs done by you." A timeless teaching that always needs to be remembered.

[@killjoy_ao4653]

i think someone's just replaced series 12 script with dodgy fanfiction

[@frde2190]

That is an offence to fan fiction lmao

[@DeplorableMinecrafter]

@@frde2190 The nonsensical fan fic I wrote when I was about 10 is infinitely better than the Timeless Child simply because it does not retcon any lore.

[@jons4192]

Honestly this twist would've been amazing if it turned out The Master was the timeless child.

[@Bubbly_Dragon]

Personally, I think the Doctor should have been the scientist who tortured the tc in the first place, if they _needed_ to do the story. Easy moral dilemma with a little bit less character assassination

[@zc6299]

When watching the episode for the first time, I thought the Master would be the timeless child. Oh how disappointing the plot twist would be.

[@hikaDP]

Or how, for that matter, the existence of this "timeless child" basically destroys 1 billion years of timelord history, effectivelly striping Gallifrey of its narrative attraction as the mythical "Shining world of the seven systems and of the continent of wild endeavour". For me, Chibnall has completely destroyed the show. Disgusting.

[@rof2877]

That line from The End of Time was one of Rassilon's best. Now it doesn't even matter because The Doctor exists and therefore the Time Lords do as well.

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

I love how people say it “basically destroys everything” then proceed to prove that it doesn’t “basically destroy everything”

[@galarstar052]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 how so?

[@MissTomi]

This show should rename itself to Doctor Who Cares.

[@thecoloradokid5418]

Or doctor why

[@zlee001]

Sheldon said that.

[@PrincessX-ke8tj]

@@thecoloradokid5418 RIP this show, once called Doctor Who, now called Shit

[@mrscribbles2693]

*Welcome to planet comedy Population: YOU*

[@PrincessX-ke8tj]

@@beauxriley8768 cuz I really liked this show and cared about it.

[@seankkg]

"hey the origin of our culture just stole a tardis" "oh well lol"

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Exactly ! Thank you ! Probably the best argument for why it makes absolutely no sense if they just ignored the Doctor gallivanting around the universe and not be bothered by it at all. You'd think the Time Lords would be concerned and trying to imprison the Doctor on Gallifrey already since the classic era of the show, since that's what would make the most sense strategically. If they lost the regen energy and regen tech, they'd have to force the Doctor to help them recover the abilities. But they have never shown any particular concern for what he or she is up to. I am no obsessive stickler for continuity, far from it, but the "Timeless Child" mess really doesn't make any lick of sense in the entire history of the series.

[@user-vn7ce5ig1z]

For 50 years, they even avoided giving the Doctor a name, let alone a definitive origin story. Guess what's the next thing Chibnall wants to do… ¬_¬ (I bet it'll be something like Sally.)

[@reyniknamyrion3557]

Don't give him ideas - if he sees this comment he might actually make it that Sally Sparrow from 'Blink' was another incarnation of the Doctor.

[@byungbin1395]

"Brendon" has got ya' covered!

[@abbie_ff]

Tony

[@conkom1]

There are more than a few long time viewers who see the Timeless Child as adding another rich layer to the ongoing mythology of Doctor Who. The series was always a work in progress. And there have always been break away factions who will be scathing in their attacks when something new comes along and then claim it is a heresy. One voice that will disagree with this particular echo chamber.

[@maverickdarkrath4780]

Can we petition to fire him and erase him from the dr who cannon along with his shitty writing

[@danielberry7074]

We've still got Series 1-10 and the classic series to enjoy, it will take a writer of great intelligence to remove the damage Chibnall has caused.

[@robinlillian9471]

Easy enough. It was all a bad dream. A hallucination. Whatever. It's been done before.

[@mcryan07]

Been rewatching the modern series and am currently on season 7. I’ll be stopping after series 10

[@rimurutempest1279]

i just started rewatching the original series@@mcryan07 😜

[@Neil070]

What Chibnall has done is like giving Bruce Wayne superpowers. What makes Batman special is that he is a human being without powers. What makes the Doctor special is that he is vulnerable. He can't climb walls like a spider, see through walls, or survive bullets. He can be injured without regenerating. His regenerations are limited to 12 (originally), but the Time Lords can give some (the Master in the Five Doctors, the Doctor in Time of the Doctor) "a whole new regenerative cycle", but other than that, he has to rely on his intellect and knowledge. And occasionally on other people.

[@ButterBoyism]

As a writer I'm always completely puzzled when a series decides to delete the personal growth of their characters and simply making them a "destined saviour". It's the equivalent of creating a beautiful story about a deaf girl who deals with fitting into society and the mental anguish of lacking core communication skills - then 15 years into it the director decides that she's never been deaf, she just didn't know that she could "hear" stuff... it ruins the ENTIRE journey and it betrays the emotional investment of your reader/viewer base.

[@Nusrich_06]

After watching this, I have the impending feeling that the show will die Again

[@Sillimant_]

Except this time it should. Go on hiatus for another 16 years, get some creative energy back And then retcon chibnall out

[@ableryder]

I was thinking the same. I have stopped watching with the 12th doctor, and let me tell you, this isnt tempting to come back to.

[@jonathancooper4914]

Probs for the best.

[@Reader999]

I'm glad that from William Hartnell's Doctor to Peter Capaldi's Doctor is canon while this steaming hot garbage is just an elucid dream.

[@MaskedMan66]

6:15 Okay, the Shobogans have appeared on the show before, specifically in "The Invasion of Time." Only there, it was the name of "dropouts" from Gallifreyan society, including some Time Lords, and led by-- interestingly-- a *former* Time Lord.

[@alucardhellsing125]

It renders the doctor's "I don't want to go" meaningless

[@GameBreaker1055]

Nah, not really. The 10th did not care about "losing a life", but about losing himself as every version of the Doctor is different from the last. In a way, the Doctor DOES die and becomes a completely different person. 10 wanted to stay HIM not get reborn as someone else. 12 also had such thoughts, thinking that he could not keep changing his face, becoming a new person again and again.

[@justoneman13]

@@GameBreaker1055 Completely agree. The emotional impact of the Doctor's regeneration has never had anything to do with the number of times they can regenerate, since, in reality, that number was always as many as are needed for the show to continue. That line always hits me particularly hard because it always seemed like it was, at least partly, Tennant himself saying it

[@cristian-ionutapostol8018]

The doctor already had an origin story! It wasn't fully fleshed out with every tiny minutia but it was there! So yes, they should've left well enough alone.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Doctor Who is no stranger to breaking continuity, but this reveal didn't just break continuity. It didn't even shatter the continuity. It flat out _eviscerated_ the continuity. In fact, it might have gone even further beyond that. This damage of this plot twist didn't just destroy the continuity in the present, it's it went back in and changed the fabric of the universe so that continuity never even existed in the first place. That's how much damage to continuity this reveal truly did!

[@levelmakertoiletpaperediti1778]

BREAKING NEWS: Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars is smart

[@whatis4295]

Yep, and there's now the question of how River Song ever had regeneration powers if not from the time vortex...

[@Llama_charmer]

Well Doctor who has always had a sense of "just roll with it", not every makes perfect sense but thats more just unexplained things not flat out contradictions

[@BYToady]

We'll find out eventually that every thing in the universe is actually just a reincarnation of the Doctor, even the rocks. Someone read the "one electron universe" theory and thought it would be a good idea for Dr. Who.

[@GameBreaker1055]

Nonono! The Doctor IS a sentient universe like the other one! Just with a better imagination and managed to reincarnated itself into different conciousnesses.

[@GameBreaker1055]

@Luvjeet SINGH I have only heard about it once in school when the teacher once again drifted off about what he was supposed to teach us as he found it too boring, but essentially: The one electron universe theory suggests that EVERYTHING is made up of the ONE AND THE SAME electron going back in forth in time.

[@Simbabweman]

This reminds me of some Spider-Man comics (and the amazing Spider-Man 2 movie) where they hint at Peter Parker's DNA being connected to the spider that bit him so he was the only person who could get powers from it making the theme that "anybody could be Spider-Man" irrelevant because now he's special. No one really liked those stories. The doctor who writers should've done a bit of research there.

[@DoctorTopper]

So all those timelords in "Time of The Doctor" sacrificed their own regenerations for someone who didn't need it.

[@potsdam28]

And the Time Lords would’ve known that. Rassilon if no one else

[@Deception975]

And this is the problem with people only knowing new Who lore. There wasn't always a 12 regeneration limit. That came about during the 4th Doctor's run. They can be granted more/a new cycle. Hell, the Master himself ran out of regenerations in old Who. And it isn't just from one Time Lord to another. They can just be given a new cycle, or some extra few regenerations, as was the case of some who participated in the Time War.

[@rimurutempest1279]

thats why every writer should have seen and understand the entire show/franchise before writing for it@@Deception975

[@Deception975]

@@rimurutempest1279 That's probably where the idea of the Timeless Child came about. Because the faces from old who episode The Brain of Morbius show up. In that old episode, it was intended for those to be previous incarnations of the Doctor. But of course, fans didn't like that idea then, and still don't now. I like it, because it adds more mystery back into the lore. Instead of just being the Time Lords creating it all, from practically nothing.

[@Kepler444f]

Does anyone here miss the 12th doctor's Tardis.

[@slevinchannel7589]

I always loved how easy to compare the Sci-Fi-Worlds in Science Fiction are. The Cyber-Collectives are a great example/measurement-tool for that! Stargate has one, Star Trek has one, Doctor Who has one. You can easily see how inferior Doctor Who to Star Trek and Star Trek to Stargate is. Alone from the Effiency of those beings that basically are walking Effiency - or at least they should be. Cyberman and Dalek are actually on KZbin on Lists like "Top 10 Alien Races that are too Dumb to Exist!" And yeah, that summs it up very well. Stargates Cosmos is just more realistic and the most realistic. Star Trek is second-place. And Doctor Who? It's just so filled with Plot Holes and Dumb Alienc Races and Nonsense that it could never ever exist. Makes it all the more laughable in what state those 3 Franchises are. Stargate is just sleeping while the other 2 (3 if you count Star Wars) Self-Destruct in an amazing FIREWORK!

[@cobalius]

Yes

[@lordinquisitor6233]

I am so glad I dropped out after the Capaldi era

[@kingdiamond8875]

Lord Inquisitor I wish I did that as well big mistake I did

[@noahsdeafeyes]

Me, too.

[@frostkitsunelive7661]

I'm just going to say one thing and end it there: I admire how Jodie Whittaker has gone through all of this, even knowing it's likely destroying her reputation. I wouldn't have picked another first Female Doctor. But I definitely would have chosen a different Showrunner. Chris Chibnall has outright said, back when DW was still young, that he hated what the show was like. He did this, not because he didn't understand what he was doing; not just because he was ignorant of the entire message of Doctor Who; but to try and make a point that "I can make a better Doctor Who." Well done, Chris Chibnall. You failed spectacularly. You've ruined the show beyond repair, and the only way to save it is to retcon all of your work out of existence. Hope you're proud with yourself now that half of the world hates you, and some people even hate the poor woman you put through this.

[@zacmumblethunder7466]

Chris Chibnall is fairly typical of the Dr Who Appreciation Society. I could never quite figure out what definition of "Appreciation" covered their persistent sniping at the series, it's writers, directors, producers and actors. They used to produce a smug little magazine full of their convoluted, deranged fantasies of how they thought the series should be. This nonsense is typical of that bilge.

[@jennaantenna4997]

And of course, RTD has come back and has publically stated that he won't retcon any of what Chibnall has put out because he feels it's disrespectful to the past showrunner to retcon his entire run. But now, the show is kind of ruined and with the agreement with Disney it feels so Disney-fied.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@jennaantenna4997 RTD is ruining DW in his own way. It's clear that he wasn't exactly keen on saving the series, nor healing the wounds that Chibnall inflicted. He's more interested in taking the dying corpse of what was a proud franchise and using it for his own selfish purposes. This isn't the same RTD that ran arguably the most iconic era of the series and is largely responsible for its successful revival. This RTD is twisted and evil, and he only wants to twist and warp what he knows is loved by many into something that primarily serves to boost his own ego.

[@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770]

The whole 7th Doctor lines were indeed intended as foreshadowing for a stupid idea called the Cartmel Masterplan, which would've essentially been like the Timeless Child. Fortunately, the show got canceled, so it never saw the light of day onscreen. It did make it into the Virgin New Adventures novels, but those ended up being pretty much ignored by the time New Who came around. Most fans hated the Cartmel Masterplan, and it essentially ended up being considered non canon. Now, Chibnall has decided to basically make it official canon through the Timeless Child, despite the fact that practically no one in the fandom wants it.

[@RetroActiveGM]

I think the Cartmel Masterplan should have taken a different course. Instead of being a pre-Hartnell "Timeless Child", it should have instead seen The Doctor delve darker into himself and rise to a state of power never before seen, possibly in preperation for a war of some kind. Perhaps The Doctor saw the Time War coming in light of his actions re. Blowing up Skaro, so decided to prepare for it. That would've been interesting, but I reject any notion of an incarnation before Hartnell. The Timeless Children is, in my view, non-canon.

[@toqkaizogou1636]

At least with the Cartmell Masterplan, while it would've revealed too much, it kept the importance on WHO the Doctor was, not WHAT, and it was about the Doctor's actions. That reveal at least stuck to the idea that the Doctor is choosing to keep things he chose to do secret for reasons, ìnstead of, the Doctor finds out she's some superpowered alien god that had things done to her and never knew it. Cartmell plan may have been stupid, but it still was better than this shit, and the hinting itself was actually good. It being left as the Doctor hinting there's more to his past, that he's fully aware of but chooses to keep secret, and it never being revealed, was great as it allowed people to forever speculate, and never be let down by the answers because there wasn't a definitive one.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Where do I start with this? There wasn't much of a masterplan as such. The Other storyline is far different from what this was... and if anything, actually heightens the importance of who the Doctor was before being the Doctor where this does not. Technically, it was canon. As the officially licensed run for the Wilderness Years, it was canon. And RTD never did explicitly denounce anything that happened in the Wilderness Years. He avoided the question by throwing the Time War in the way. A Time War, which by the way he called the Last Great Time War to account for the EDAs and VNAs having had their own time wars. Also, IIRC most of the complaints that came about regarding the "masterplan" at the time were not about the revelations but rather about the fact that the writers were each interpreting it in their own different ways. Something that happened a lot in those years.

[@LDtheBrachio]

Hmmm, this sounds alot like.... dar ehe say it.... Clone Palaptine....

[@GermanLeftist]

I'm peronal a big fan of the Cartmel Masterplan. And the reason for that is that the Masterplan on the one hand gives us an explanation for the Morbius' Doctors, delves into Time Lord history and the personal history of the Doctor while at the same time creating new mysterious around these things. The Other was a Time Lord in the Age of Rassilon who threw himself into a Loom, the Gallifreyan birth machines, for some unknown reason, most likely because he had a fallout with Rassilon himself, and thousands of years later, when the Doctor stepped out of the very same Loom, he had earned parts of the Other's memory. With those memories he won the mind battle against Morbius on Karn but at the same time none of the pre-Hartnell faces were actual regenerations of the Doctor. Hartnell still was the first, no ifs or buts about it. And the storyline never went too much into detail on what the connection between the Doctor and the Other actually was, nor did it directly tell us who the Other was, or why McCoy's Doctor suddenly remembered stuff like this but not his previous selves. The Timeless Child nonsense on the other hand puts an unknown number of regenerations before Hartnell who are also the Doctor, the very same Time Lord and at least one even called herself the Doctor. It's in your face and it robs Hartnell from being that important. And unlike the Cartmel Masterplan, which was intended to be mysterious and not give us an answer on everything, this is told in your face. There is no real mystery about it. It's like Chibnall looked at some of the notes regarding what Cartmel and the other authors of the time had come up with and decided to tell a story like that himself but lacks the skills as a writer and a showrunner to do so, resulting in the poor man's version of this Masterplan to being brought on screen.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Doctor Who series 13 finale twist: EVERY character we’ve ever seen in the series, from Ian and Barbara to Harriet Jones, was a memory-erased regeneration of the Doctor.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

It can't be Harriet Jones. We knew who she was.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

The Smart-Casual Gamer. Easy. Five years before Aliens of London, the Doctor died and regenerated into Penelope Wilton in Flydale North. Someone (presumably whoever’s been wiping the Doctor’s memory for millennia) used a chameleon arch to give her a new personality with an interest in local politics. She survives the slitheen attack, becomes prime minister, gets voted out, and is killed by Daleks during The Stolen Earth. Moments after the camera cuts away, she regenerates, gets her memory wiped, and the cycle begins again. This is _ALL_ sarcasm, I hope you understand. I’m just coming up with the most absurd, nonsensical “twist” I can think of. 😉

[@n30dark]

Bigger twist. Everyone in the Universe is the Doctor

[@MorganSaph]

@@n30dark Biggest twist. The Doctor is the Universe

[@Jyappino1010]

@@MorganSaph the Bigger twist than the biggest twist: The Doctor Is T I M E itself. He is infinite and will not end. Even if he dies. He will come back again. As time is a neccessary to make the universe go on its way. If someone actually put the doctor down for good. The universe will break and time itself is shattered.

[@tgiacin435]

I think what gets me the most is that they could’ve went with the Doctor originally being the Other before falling in a loom. And it wouldn’t mess up the Doctor’s story. Also did the galifrayans forget about Rassalon, the timelord living god king that was one of the three founders of timelord society, and was so bad the other timelords rose up, and imprisoned him in his personal death zone?

[@tgiacin435]

Also the timelords removed the timeless child’s ability to regenerate, only to give it to him again? I mean they would’ve had an easier time by throwing the timeless child in a genetic loom so the child could be born as a normal galifrayan. At least then it still wouldn’t mess up the Doctor’s first incarnation, and would actually give a reason why the Doctor doesn’t remember it. Hell, Ruth could’ve been a future incarnation like the Valeyard, or the Curator.

[@PeptoBismarck244]

Keep in mind that every time the doctor considers himself special like in the Waters of Mars he loses and fails.

[@redjirachi1]

The Timeless Child as a general concept as brilliant Making the Doctor the Timeless Child is idiotic

[@BWMagus]

Eh, even as a concept, it sort of contradicts what we've already been told, like with River Song.

[@kryten1016]

John Porteous the origin was the time cortex not the doctor, how do you think river got her regenerations, it makes no sense.☹️

[@parkerxr500]

Am I the only one thinking that this contradicts when 11 regenerated with the energy given to him by the Time lords. Or was it just a kick start.

[@potsdam28]

No it wasn’t a kick start. He’s seen his corpse on Trenzalore. He was originally going to die there

[@anotherhappylanding4746]

@@potsdam28 but if he's got infinite regeneration why couldn't he regenerate

[@craigbridgens]

@@anotherhappylanding4746 As we have seen before, regeneration is at least partly a conscious choice. John Simm’s Master chose not to regenerate, Capaldi’s Dr wasn’t going to regenerate. 11 didn’t regenerate because he believed that he couldn’t.

[@anotherhappylanding4746]

@@craigbridgens I suppose that's the only thing that makes the slightest sense, the timeless child idea tho shouldn't have been a thing and cause all this confusion in which people have to rationalise it to themselves

[@craigbridgens]

@@anotherhappylanding4746 tbf. We’ve all spent over 40 years ignoring the Morbius doctors because they weren’t convenient to the Doctor having 13 lives. So far every plot hole that anyone has mentioned to me as a result of the Timeless Child I’ve been able to explain within canon. Happy to be proven wrong though if anyone can bring up a plot hole that I can’t explain :)

[@paulscott2037]

It really genuinely hurts me that this arc has made me not want to watch Doctor Who any more. I was already kind of going off it but I was trying to stick with it because I do love Whittaker in the role. But the writing has just been lacklustre at best and downright illogical at worst with plodding storylines that could have great moments for character interaction and growth that just aren't there... And despite all that I was doing my best to give Chibnall the benefit of the doubt and keep going until the Timeless Child reveal. The Doctor is meant to be a nobody. A underachieving Timelord that no one of his own race ever expected anything of until they ran away with a stolen TARDIS and suddenly made the universe sit up and take notice of them. That's how every other Doctor has been played (with maybe the exception of Sylvestor McCoy) That's their character. And Chibnall has ruined that completely.

[@robinlillian9471]

Whittaker & Chibnall made Dr. Who suck. They made me not want to watch Dr. Who. The BBC can do anything they want with the show--except force people to watch it.

[@blairbrown4812]

Its funny that you should mention Sylvester McCoy,because around the same time that he was hired to portray the seventh Incarnation of the Doctor, Andrew Cartmel, an inexperienced author and editor, who was hired on as Doctor Who's script editor for season 24. Cartmel had an unusual take on why Doctor Who was basically circling the drain . As far as Cartmel was concerned, the problem was not that there was no place for The Doctor in the modern world or that the show looked too low-budget. The problem was that the sense of mystery which surrounded The Doctor and his race, the Time Lords, had been slowly eroded by stories like Arc of Infinity and The Trial of a Time Lord, which turned the once unknowable watchers of time and space into a group of squabbling bureaucrats in robes and funny hats. Though we all know that there is nothing in the universe So Cartmeml,with the aid of writers Ben Aaronovitch and Marc Platt, began developing the idea that The Doctor was far more than a renegade Time Lord. Instead,he would slowly suggest,through bits and pieces of dialogue in episodes that The Doctor was one of the Time Lords' founders; a mysterious being known only as The Other. This idea is supported in episodes like Battlefield,where Morgaine and Ansulin encountered the Doctor centuries before in their dimension,in the Doctor's personal future,and in "Revelations of the Daleks," where the Doctor was telling the story about the Hand of Omega to Ace and let slip the implication that he helped to develop the technology of the Hand. Indeed,the second known Incarnation of the Doctor implies that he was responsible for developing the TARDIS. There are further hints of just how much power and influence that the Doctor has and how the relationship between the Doctor and their people became so estranged. The Doctor's fluctuating age,the displays of telepathic powers,the Fourth Incarnation's easy familiarity with the idea of the multiverse. Almost from the very beginning,Classic Who is riddled with hints of just how special the Doctor really is. screenrant.com/doctor-who-timeless-child-retcon-classic-series-clues/ screenrant.com/doctor-who-season-12-timeless-child-original-story-complete/

[@NoahGooder]

im legit still on the fence on watching dr who

[@ivaneames4354]

@@blairbrown4812 Hate to be picky but Sylvester's Dalek story was Remembrance of the Daleks not Rebelation. I agree with your point though. The recon also explains the extra Doctors seen in The Brain of Morbius.

[@chaosentity3655]

Basically its no longer doctor "who"

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

Ok what’s their name then

[@GafferPerkele]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 Doctor who even watches this?

[@Nope-en9bo]

Landlighter Firestar Doctor who the fuck are you

[@billyhewson4084]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 dr who gives a shit?

[@raheemaslam7363]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 it’s doctor wtf

[@mgmasonbooks]

The more I think about The Timeless Child idea, the more it makes sense to me for this to be The Master. All the friction, the bitterniss, rogueishness, the recklessness and even the fact that the Timelords have bent over backwards repeatedly throughout the decades to placate The Master while attempting to control him, would work to show that they realise The Master has a hold over the whole society.

[@EmpiresEGG]

Before season 12: It’s what you choose to do that makes you special After season 12: Oh if you’re not born special you can’t be

[@radic888]

We can only hope that the Master was lying, or that he himself was deceived by the Matrix.

[@GermanLeftist]

Wouldn't be the first time. The Master manipulated the Matrix twice before - the first time in The Deadly Assassin and a second time, to much greater extant, in Trial of a Time Lord. And we know from the spin-off media that other Time Lords, including the Doctor themselves, have done so mulitple times. And that the Doctor's memories have been manipulated before has also happened multiple times, hell in the first Virgin New Adventure novel the Seventh Doctor even explains that he sometimes deletes his own memories to make place for new ones.

[@themeeman]

That's probably the retcon that the next showrunner will do to undo this mess. That or just pretend it never happened.

[@BWMagus]

It would be strange to think that The Master, after twice taking control of the Matrix, once specifically for the purpose of getting more lives after running out of regenerations, only just NOW discovered this fact that's just been sitting there.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@BWMagus How would it be strange? The Master was preoccupied with killing the Doctor and getting himself more lives the first time, and was dealing with trying to decipher what was going on with the High Council in Trial. (Heck, in Trial, he doesn't even get full confirmation of anything he says he's discovered, and Big Finish made a point of pointing that out). And I don't think either occasion would've spurred him to look at a small little disguised snippet filled under - out of trillions of years and billions of planets and countless locations - Earth, 21st century, Ireland.

[@BWMagus]

@@JayDragonarcProductions You just...you just wrote that he was too preoccupied with getting new lives to learn about getting new lives. That makes literally no sense. He came to Gallifrey, snuck in, took over the computer system, ALL to find a way to get more lives. And we know the Master is a genius; he is a scientist, an engineer, of the first order. So the FIRST thing he would do is try and figure out how the Timelords discovered regeneration, it's source, how they limit it to 12 times, how they grant more regeneration cycles. It's ridiculous to think he would access the repository of all Timelord knowledge and NOT try to figure out the very thing that drove him there in the first place! We could accept that the secret is simply not kept in the Matrix; perhaps it was in a separate system that only the High Council or even President could access, or that it was lost in time. But now we're told, nope, it's right there, and the Master found it BY ACCIDENT when he somehow didn't find it when looking ON PURPOSE.

[@dumatrising2421]

I think there's another compelling theory that can greatly improve the timeless child thing other than the master lying: since time is wibbly wobbly and doesn't progress in a strictly linear manner, what if the timelords turned the doctor into the timeless child by granting them so many regenerations on trenzalor. Then later on in their personal timeline they would create timelord society (creating a sort of causal loop). Effectively meaning that the first doctor is still the first and everything the doctor goes through is still just another bloke by shifting it from the origin of their story to the end of it you preserve the doctors journey and the whole timeless child thing is much more satisfying within the who story

[@FeverTheHeretic]

Hell Bent - Rassilon says: "How many regenerations did we grant you?

[@crozraven]

BBC & Chibnall managed to make Doctor Sue instead.

[@matreimer]

The timeless child is without a doubt the biggest tragedy to ever find it’s way into the doctor who narrative, and the most disgusting crime Chibnall committed as showrunner. I truly hope that there is a way to throw all this garbage out with some RTD magic.

[@horrorvictim]

It would make more sense if Jack was "the timeless child" tbh or he found a way to stop being immortal, but the separation of that ability causes him to still have a long life, just slowly turning into the face of Bo. And the "power of imortality from Jack/ bad wolf event manifests itself as the timeless child as the origin of all timeless beings. But what do I know? I didn't watch Chibnal's Doctor.

[@CrysJaL]

It'd be interesting but it was implied that he had started ageing already after a hundred hears or so following the events where he met the Doctor again after the finale with the Master. He'd noticed a few "grey hairs" kept appearing and following that The Doctor realised he was the face of Bo.

[@Lauren-pq3qx]

Jack was given immortality by the time vortex thingy-

[@unixpert321]

This has been done and dealt with

[@horrorvictim]

@@CrysJaL Yeah, but that retcon would have still been much better than what Chibnal did, for real.

[@CrysJaL]

@@horrorvictim Certainly. It would be hard not to quite frankly and would have made a great excuse to use Jack some more. His character had genuine personality, enough that it warranted its own series so reintroducing him, perhaps with Gwen (considering her relationship with the Cardiff time vortex) would have been an interesting origin for the Time Lords. Having said that i agree with the broader consensus that not everything needs a written origin and the previous lack of background is superior to pretty much anything else at this point.

[@spikespiegle9698]

The Doctor and the Joker should not have an origin story.

[@MS-nb2zg]

spike spiegle jokers origins are pretty cool

[@ProjectPowerPoint]

The show's now called Doctor Joke

[@conkom1]

The Joker has an origin story. The original Red Hood is a start.

[@SuperSymbiote1]

The killing joke is his origin story, it was pretty good.

[@DigitalVanquish]

The Joker doesn't have a defined backstory...He went to Ace Chemicals as the Red Hood, but the reason as to why is left intentionally ambiguous. Maybe he did have a wife that left him, or a wife and child that died in childbirth. Maybe he had no wife, and was just so poor he felt he had no other choice than crime. The Joker doesn't have a definitive past because the idea is that anyone could become The Joker. The same way that anyone could be The Doctor, by doing what is right, decent, and above all, kind.

[@DaDunge]

7:00 The doctor is exceptional even for a timelord, but because he chose to be, because what he's seen and what he's done while the other timelords just sat own their asses and congratulated themselves on how awesome they were. There's a reason the timelords were less than happy when the doctor returned for the time war, but there's also a reason only he could actually win it. The doctor is the greatest of the timelords, the Daleks may try to fight a war with the timelords but they almost shit themselves when they realise the doctor has entered the fray. But not because the doctor is mroe than a timelord but because the doctor has been the timelord who has been out there fighting them, and have learned how to oppose evil so well by experience while most of his kind have not.

[@thehorrorcounselors4747]

I’m glad to see you notice the errors and the shittyness that was the timeless child keep up the greatness 🖤

[@MariaIsabellaZNN]

I see a lot of those videos lately and they make excellent points, I did not even think of some of those. And neither did the writers, it seems.