HOW CLOSE TO 100% MAX HEART-RATE CAN YOU HOLD FOR A MARATHON?! Coach Sage Canaday Running Training

[@MidLifeRunner]

Hi Sage, just used a Higher Running plan to PB Chicago by a solid 58 minutes. Only been running a couple of years so the massive improvement makes sense. The highest I have seen my max HR was in all out mile (197), the most starved for air as well. I ran Chicago at 170 (86%- what jack Daniels says is the marathon HR percentage), treating 173(88%) as my threshold and staying just below it for most of the race. I finished strong, passing a lot people who were fading. Maybe it was the 15 week aerobic base building period before the plan, or the perfect weather , but I felt great and even that I left a little out there. Thanks for the plan- it was killer

[@Vo2maxProductions]

CONGRATS! Really an amazing time drop and it sounds like you paced that really well with those numbers making sense. Thanks so much for choosing a Higher Running Training Plan....we appreciate your support! Congrats again!

[@alanshrimpton6787]

I have to agree. I think as people get more running experience then they are able to push themselves more and they see their HR go above what they thought was their max. It looks like a new max.

[@bassgirl_denalia9087]

Dude, you're an inspiration. I've been following you over the past 6 or so years and to see someone who has asthma overcome such adversity and become an elite runner is astonishing. I want to thank you for posting these videos. They've helped me overcome many running obstacles and fears, adding humor to boot. You're awesome!

[@harpldlewis7764]

Excellent analysis, makes perfect sense! If you never had your maximum heart rate determined in a lab, then you are working blind. Perceived effort and the talk test, will be the best metrics for most recreational runners. If you are working too hard, it must affect your breathing!

[@someguyfromtheinternet5158]

Max HR point is very valid. I thought mine was 205 ish because that was the highest I’d ever seen in training. I did a vo2max and turns out it was 213! Very different 😅

[@MidLifeRunner]

Hi Sage, just used a Higher Running plan to PB Chicago by a solid 58 minutes. Only been running a couple of years so the massive improvement makes sense. The highest I have seen my max HR was in all out mile (197), the most starved for air as well. I ran Chicago at 170 (86%- what jack Daniels says is the marathon HR percentage), treating 173(88%) as my threshold and staying just below it for most of the race. I finished strong, passing a lot people who were fading. Maybe it was the 15 week aerobic base building period before the plan, or the perfect weather , but I felt great and even that I left a little out there. Thanks for the plan- it was killer

[@iberiksoderblom]

I've just been testet to actually be able to hold 94% - AVERAGE - MaxHR for more than an hour ! (91% - 99% after the first 4 minutes. The testtime was a given 1 hour) I could do it for longer if needed. During the testing it was also shown, I actually have a trainable MaxHR, and as I changed training regime my MaxHR went up 3 beats as compared to two years ago. I have been an above average runner consistently for 50+ years ! VO2max tests being performed 4 times a year, as clinical tests, startet as an age-based project.

[@etapepartners]

last season I raced Skimo for the first time. I was proud of the data I was generating in races: eg. holding 90% of max HR for 3hrs. then in the spring I got a coach and did a drift test for the first time. turns out my Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome(ADS) was so bad I could only perform anaerobically. I couldn't even jog in Z1, I had to stop and walk sometimes. those crazy high HR numbers were not exactly a badge of honor, but really clues that I had a massive aerobic issue. so, after months of Z1/AeT training, I'm racing Sky races at altitude ( Sky peaks, Rut, Broken Arrow etc) at Aerobic levels for the first time. but I've also noticed that while I am much faster, my max HR during races is not has high as it was when I had crazy ADS. looking forward to getting more data as skimo season starts

[@_cineris]

I'd like to dive a bit more into the heart rate topic. My measured max HR is 204 (3 separate tests showed same number) as a 33 year old male, non-competitive runner. So my threshold target is generally 170-180, which I can maintain no problem for > an hour. However, my rested heart rate is in the low 40s, sometimes dipping into the high 30s while I sleep. Is there a range at which runners should be concerned (i.e. resting HR too low, too large a range between resting and max, etc.)?

[@nauding1035]

My resting is 32-34 and I’m wondering the same thing have I gone too far lol

[@Chris-dw3xl]

Good question as a 49 year old my resting HR is low 40 s into mid 30 s while sleep sometimes dropping low as 34 even the surgeon said you have a low HR but I can only get my hr up to mid to high 170 s

[@Vo2maxProductions]

How was your 100% max HR measured? I mean if your "threshold target" is 170-180 and you can maintain that no problem for over an hour then it's not your lactate threshold. So it could very well be possible your max HR is actually higher than 204 and your Lactate Threshold is maybe closer to 185-190. As far as the resting HR goes....generally that's a good sign of progressing fitness (lower resting HR numbers and they go down as you get more fit). It's also generally good to have a lot of reserve (big difference between max HR and resting HR). Low 30s and something even lower might be a bit of a concern....the resting HR can be recorded manually (accurately) when you wake up...so I'd check that number maybe a bit. Again full legal disclaimer:" I'm not a medical professional [obviously]...consult your doctor before trying anything new. This advice is not meant to diagnose, cure, treat or prevent any disease. "

[@nathantanner9433]

I've spoken to several doctors about resting heart rate, basically so long as you feel fine (you don't feel dizzy, tired, weak, or short of breath then your heart rate is fine for you. Technically anything below 60 BPM is Bradycardia (low heart rate). That all said the average adults heart rate is usually around 40-50 BPM and the average resting heart rate is around 60 so your sleeping heart rate being 10ish lower seems normal based on the averages.

[@empyrionin]

Wow. I always thought there was something wrong with me. My max HR is 197. Resting HR in the 40s. I'm 31, about 198lbs. Not a fast runner (prolly bad genetics, I'm more neanderthal than cro magnon lol). I can hold 170-175 HR for 2 hrs or more. Seems like I'm not the only one. Keep going there mate!

[@bitcoinmining6361]

I would say try adding more short harder stuff to your routine. i.e. 10 x 100 m sprints. I have noticed getting back into sports in my late 30's, the anaerobic work outs helped my aerobic work outs, big time. You need more recovery etc, but 100% effort seemed to be the key for me

[@gerardnogues4814]

This really helps ease the fear of those of us with smart watches

[@cakej1]

Totally agree. Other than doing a few longer really hard hill repeats, Vo2max test is best way to try and find max HR. Personally, I like LT test and use my power level to base my workouts on power.

[@Greg-me8le]

excellent info and very helpful. We can frustrate ourselves and limit ourselves if we are under the belief that we are already training closer to our max HR than we truly are. We have been told that our Max HR can't be changed or improved so we draw the conclusion that we have maxed out any speed gains we will make. By knowing that our max HR is likely higher but unknown it opens doors to new possibilities in potential.

[@amateuradventurer9481]

Hey Sage! Thank you for your amazing training talks. What would be the best way to recover from a marathon. I have just finished Chicago Marathon and wondering what I can do (in terms of nutrition, stretches, runs, etc) to recover faster from my marathon.

[@angelhristov2933]

Such an interesting topic, congrats!

[@plmarshall30]

A HR strap is the best but it can have errors. If it is a dry day with lots of static electricity, it will wreck havoc on your HR strap. The HR strap is way better than the optical sensor on a watch however. A lot of "|drifit" type fabrics enhance static electricity so I wipe an new dryer sheet on the inside and outside of the shirt and this works almost 100% of the time.

[@gengar678]

i run the marathon at 86% and the HM at 90% of max HR, with a time of 1:37 on HM and 3:30 on marathon.

[@caseyoneill4235]

Hey sage, wondering if you could talk about medium long runs. How to schedule them when base building or training for a race vs your other workouts, pacing, etc

[@KatieSheaDC]

TLDR: best recovery methods immediately upon crossing a finish line and what's happening to your body at that time? Hi Sage, I just ran my first half (woo-hoo!) and I felt okay when I crossed the finish line: certainly fatigued and exhausted as I really pushed it but I didn't feel sick. Then 15 minutes later I felt... horrible. I didn't know what my body needed but I just felt like I was going to be sick and like I needed to lay down. What causes this and what tips do you have for celebrating after the finish line instead of waiting in line for the porto potty with great concern. I did fail to use electrolytes (long story) in the race and should have had a bit more water during the race but otherwise I thought my fuel was pretty good. I drank water slowly during those 15 minutes. Thanks!

[@Draddar]

There is also a psychological effect on heart rate. Many studies show that HR at same pace during a race is considerably higher than in training, in the range of 5%. So if you run a certain pace in training at 84% maxHR in the actual race it might well be 90% with same percieved effort. Even more, you can actually hold that higher percentage just the same in terms of time. The theory is that it has to do with all the excitement of the race. What I'm aiming at is that when racing at 92% possibly only 86% is physiological (correlated to cardiovascular demands, lactate and so on) and maybe 6% is entirely psychological and can thus be ignored in terms of physical limits. This is obviously an oversimplified model, just trying to show a point.

[@Matterzzz]

This was me in Chicago last weekend. Even just standing in the corral my hr was in the 70s normal standing is low to mid 50s. When I wake up it’s usually high 30s-mid 40s. Race morning was in the high 50s-60s. I chalked it up to just race anxiety.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Well adrenaline and mental toughness differences can certainly change a lot of things. (People are usually more mentally tough in races than in training workouts solo). Also, since a race (especially a time-trial) is generally an even paced effort, all-out and with a longer time span at higher intensity we'd except values to be much harder after a certain distance and number of minutes (compared to say a workout that is broken down into intervals and recovery minutes). But if anything the science and physics would say that you get a "Boost" in races and that race pace is easier to maintain (faster pace at lower HR). Now things like stress and race anxiety/mental attitude can certainly raise the HR of course! What studies are you looking at exactly?

[@mrandolph5481]

I regularly check my hr vs. pace during workouts and races. (Throwing in the caveat Sage mentions that even chest straps can be wrong.) I have run marathons starting out with a very high hr due to adrenaline. I'd like to know it the person has that same high hr in his training runs at those paces. I wonder if my hr is elevated because of the excitement, what effect this has? If my muscles are working at my target effort should I even care if my hr is elevated (assuming I've already accounted for heat, humidity, and hills.)

[@MeatlessNugget]

What is your opinion on zero drops shoes as well as minimal shoes? Do you ever try them or barefoot running out?

[@GTE_Channel]

Those shoes helped me get rid of knee injuries and support my running style more. I'll never look back.

[@Climbandrun]

I was curious what metrics (rate of perceived exertion, rate of breathing, heart rate data or a combination of all?) do you try to use, or advise others to use, for pacing long uphills (1000-3000ft of gain), during a hilly 100k-100m ultras that take longer than typical races? It’s so easy to work your HR into a lactate threshold type of an effort going uphill, especially in a race. And I have a hard time understanding if you have about 45-90 mins of LT effort per effort, or can you do several efforts like that during a race, with recovery on the downhill? Great channel!

[@CoolInOlympia]

Great talk!

[@chrispotterfan]

I'm curious at what heartrate and what heartrate max percentage kipchoge is during his world record runs

[@d.zyned2thrive584]

Easy days🤦. I think I'm bad at them. I always start off easy, but once I'm warmed up it feels good to run faster than conversation pace. If I start feeling fatigued I slow down, I don't force speed, but I often find myself running faster than easy just because I feel like it. Does this still count as easy, or do I need to force myself to slow down on easy days? I'm not a fast runner, 40 yr old female who averages 10-10:30 minute miles on trails with not much elevator gain (150ft over 3 miles) on my "easy" runs (3-4 miles).

[@davidhammett8958]

10:10 I’m very much an amateur runner, just ran my first marathon last month. One month before that, I ran the fastest half marathon I could in roughly 95° heat and averaged a heart rate of 198 bpm and took 2:13:30 to do it. What does this say about me as a runner? It feels insane that I can maintain that high of a heart rate for that long, but my pace was still so slow. For the marathon I ended up with a 5:42 and averaged 175 BPM in about 85-degree heat. Definitely bonked hard, but never walked. I’m 24. Edit: Max HR I have measured in any training is 207.

[@JohnDoe-ll9uh]

sometimes it´s the battery in your chest strap, mine was wonky recently until I changed the battery

[@waric9000]

Honest question here. I’m a 50 yo male and 6’3” 200 lbs and I get tightness in my chest when my heart rate gets to a sustained 168 and above while running but it goes away when bpm gets below that threshold. What does this mean? Does anyone else have same issue? Thank you

[@grooovo]

TTT question about training periodisation (for middle-age runners): I am 40 years old and I typically split my training periods into 2 parts: beginning of the year (Feb till June-July) I dedicate to speed and VO2max competing in 5-10km races and from the summer I start to increase the aerobic capacity and do longer workouts to move to half and full marathon. I was wondering now if dedicating the next 1-2 years just to the short races, concentrating on speed and then come back to marathon distance just once I have a solid speed basis I can get better results. Do you think I will get better resuluts let's say in 3-4 years if I keep the periodisation as I am doing now or better to bring for instance a 5km race close to 15'-16' (I am bit above 17min now for 5km) and then go back to distance? Thank you so much for the interesting talks, hope I could contribute with a nice question. Cheers from Europe!

[@giovanbattistafichera8439]

if I understood your question correctly, you're wondering if training exclusively with a short-distance focus for a couple of years would benefit your longer-distance performance as well? I don't think that's the case. Specificity is very important. I think you're doing just fine with your periodisation.

[@giovanbattistafichera8439]

Let me just point out one thing about the V02 max testing modes you mention at around minute 9. You're right in saying that hand/leg cycling do not give good estimates but the reason is purely due to the fact that the demand for oxygen in those two modes of exertion is lower compared to running. I just watched a recent video by S. Seiler discussing the trainable components and he happened to mention the same thing.

[@malcolmfarrelle6]

We all have VO2 max values specific to different exercises. A trained cyclist who doesn't run will have a higher cycling VO2 max and the converse is true for the runner

[@jeffbrown773]

I’m a 39M. I run 2-3 times a week. I do races regularly and about 6 1/2M annually. My 1/2M time is about 2:30 - 2:45. When I’m running my HR stays above 170, regularly hitting 180. I tell other running and they are always shocked. Is this an issue?

[@superhornet5100]

@Vo2maxProductions Do you think a beep test is a reasonable estimate of max heart rate going "all out" short of doing a lab test? (within a few beats) I've registered 193-194bpm in a beep test twice within a couple years. I completed 15.4 when I was less fit. I run about 16 mins for 5k now and am in my mid 30's.

[@xankx7629]

I have questions ask u. What part leg u feel when running distances. I feel my calf, I don’t feel my leg and thigh.

[@RunThePlanet]

TTT suggestion: how to deal with cramp at the end of Marathon, what's the solution or fix. Did you or have you ever had it regularly and how did you overcome it, or have you successfully trained runners through this to illuminate the problem. Thanks Sage !! Great show

[@kipponi]

I have heard salt helps in three minutes!?

[@RunThePlanet]

@@kipponi thanks! Getting through loads of salt tablets in a race. Exploring many options. I'm always open to hearing about how others have the same problem and overcome it.

[@decathon86]

Hi @vo2maxProductions, always very informative. On the topic of feedback, could running power (stryde foot pod for exemple) be used to define effort for runners? Cyclist use power all the time instead of HR or speed. Cheers from France

[@malcolmfarrelle6]

I use stryd, I'm a big fan. Maintaining a steady power output over rolling terrain makes so much more sense than training at a given pace or HR (HR lags effort too much, you're working too hard before you realuze)

[@Maim133]

This is the question I've been asking myself and finding no where on the internet, but again, this is mostly saying it can't be and the max is wrong. As a 41M, my measured max is 201 with a heart strap running to a max test on a treadmill. Even if that wasn't pushing to lab levels, it's already high and fine, assume 205 is the real one. In my last half (1:37) I averaged 190 from miles 4-13 and had to slow down 20 seconds around mile 11 as it hit 195. In my last full marathon, where the heart data looks really consistent, I averaged 172 or 85% for the whole race. Again, once I hit 197 around mile 21 and had to slow down by about 40 seconds to get it back down to 180 through to the finish. Is maxing out your heart supposed to be the limiting factor in the marathon?

[@CoolInOlympia]

I find heart rate straps frustrating. I am glad the new wrist based monitors are out. What I find frustrating is figuring out an accurate hr zone based on age/fitness. I am now 59 years old!

[@leschortos9196]

Heart rate watches are not accurate, they can be out up to40 bpm high or low. Sorry,

[@gregoryvoss946]

Hi Sage! Love your channel! I was wondering if there is a typical length of time between starting higher mileage and getting faster in workouts and races, with the assumption that the runner stays healthy of course. Thanks!

[@joshtootell9782]

Ha.. Auckland city

[@juliuslunsford6870]

What if you knew your MAX HR and instead added/subtracted from that general MAF equation? For example, my max heartrate is 205 so I add 13 to the 180 and subtract that by 20 instead?

[@bozoldier]

Is it possible that your belt monitor isn't paired to you watch. My watch sometimes does that. When the HR looks crazy I just pull it slightly and every single time the optical sensor is on. When it comes back down to normal I look again, and its off...

[@christoph_wattever]

Tested my Max HR with a specific test and haven't reached that number for years. Not even close. Max I reached was like 95% of that and that was for a few seconds only. So imo you can't just take max HR from years of running. It has to be from a specific test like warmup and all out intervals uphill.

[@19Kamau79]

This is very interesting topic, thought I'm getting just confused over the years as my marathon PB (October 2020) is 3:53:00 and 5K PB (September 2021) is 19:26 and finally at September 2022 my 400m PB is 59,99 only after 8week speed training block it's something I couldn't think happening at the age of 43. Basically I needed 2years of jogging to go under 4hour marathon but only 8week speed block after illness to break one minute lap. Is it better to forget marathon, heart rate training and fat metabolism? or just focus to improve my 800-1500m race time at senior meets?

[@yeeton1054]

could be you just genetically have more fast twitch muscle fibers. I also think that endurance and VO2 take a lot more time and care to grow compared to something explosive like sprints.

[@19Kamau79]

@@yeeton1054 I'm naturally kind of lean and slightly muscular which is usual for fast switch type thought week before my 400m race I did 100m race as preparation and fairly good block start gave me 13,56 which isn't good as 59,99 but maybe my body can handle lactate better than I ever thought or maybe I have potential to PB also other distances around as 100-200-800-1500m

[@DuncanEpping]

My marathon PB is 3:13:33 with exactly the same 5k PB you have! But my focus has always been on endurance, not so much on speed.

[@19Kamau79]

@@DuncanEpping also my focus has been long slow runs and some lactate threshold repeats or 20-30min single push, thought that type of training gave me better performance for 800m and 1500m, my 10K PB is 40:48 which isn't super bad but everything over 1hour mark is getting unnatural.

[@fabianrares]

Apparently my Max HR is 185 but I am really struggling to get beyond 175. The Hr zones are automatically set and adjusted by Garmin and /training peaks at times when I get a threshold notification. Is the technology wrong?

[@clarity2115]

my zone 2 is probably walking x_x

[@smirnowski]

When I read your all caps titles I always imagine the video to be you screaming on top of your lungs at the camera. Great topic ✌🏻

[@bdanimation2801]

My heart rate never go 170 and above.. and i cannot hold longer high heart rate

[@ironmantooltime]

I'll do 85% for a marathon and 90% for a half. I'm mentally strong but slow 🤣 max is 200 and I'm oooooolllllllldddddd

[@mkdesu]

Try running without consuming any caffeine and see a difference in our heart rate.

[@RXP91]

A chest strap polar h9 has been validated to 99% correlation to a 12 lead ECG on multiple subjects. If you get odd readings have you tried ECG gel? My watch keeps freaking out at my intensity on my speed days when from an RPE it feels like a 7, so I’m going to go for a max HR test again. A cross trainer is very good for that too

[@projetchalet]

time running is to consider more than distance I guess ;)

[@Itsfalcon9]

Is it good to get your hr high? I’m confused

[@nauding1035]

Of course lol

[@Eirikkinserdal]

flapping jersey syndrome 😅

[@RunnerdJK]

You didn’t give a straight answer. Per Jack Daniels’ running formula, marathon heart rate is 80 to 89% of max. Threshold heart rate is 88 to 92% of max. Based on those numbers (and the studies underlying them) no one can run at 92% of max for an entire marathon.

[@WooOutside]

I believe to have a max HR of 194 and I ran an entire marathon at 178 avg HR, which has me wondering if my max HR is actually higher. I have seen 199 max HR in a vo2max lab test but 15 years ago! So either my max HR has not decreased (or much) with age, or I can run at 92% of max for an entire marathon.

[@BonaRunNow]

Hi sage, sometime you should check with your doctor regarding you Heart Health. Because most of times HR device ready correctly, You should train most of times below 70% of you Max HR.

[@vchurchill2006]

Half marathon this weekend -- hoping to cruise at 200% HR for the first 10 miles then push to 250% the last 5k ⚰🪦