How Did Sylvanas Wipe Out The Lich King And His Army? (WoW Lore)

[@TheLichKing829]

Well she is level 123 elite and Bolvar is level 83 elite...

[@JrClips27]

Lvl 82 lol

[@akalixevelynn2932]

stfu i hate level talk in lore

[@MrPeaceFroggy]

Level 83 actually.

[@MartialArtzz]

@@akalixevelynn2932 You sound like a very reasonable person reacting appropriately and proportionately. I'd say you are about lvl 52? Dwarf female warrior I'm guessing

[@kyullian7090]

Didnt you hear that Bolvar used a level boost?

[@caboose.20]

1:30 "She found herself in Hell, and thought it was a terrible place." How astute.

[@fsh8590]

I don't understand something, "She found herself in Hell, and thought it was terrible place", resurrected then doing a bad thing again? I believe she like being on hell 😅

[@caboose.20]

@@fsh8590 I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[@fsh8590]

@@caboose.20 may the force be with you..

[@DsgSleazy]

@@fsh8590 wtf r you on abt

[@DekkarJr]

She should've just taken her anti depressants and gone to therapy like the rest of us.

[@insecdroid]

“Nothing is more powerful than an Archdruid in a forest.” What about 2 Archdruids in a Jungle?

[@lurkenskanal405]

what about chuck norris?

[@canadiancanucklehead8310]

Mother of god...

[@YoungGrizzly]

@Djasko M that last one is me. hmmmm milk shake.

[@ThyStare]

Wait until he sees obi wan in the high ground

[@wtsang1]

Nat pagle wielding a fishing rod, in full tier 10 fishing gear. trust me getting caught by a hook is like Sargeras, cleaving a world in half.

[@slippers8000]

I don't mind that sylvanas is strong, it's just that we've been expecting bolvar to have a huge impact in the world after his sacrifice. But they threw that potential away.

[@geigercourtier]

I very much disagree. Bolvar was nobody. I was upset some random just picks up the most OP crown and is like “yup I’m a good Lich king now” it’s been trash for years don’t play

[@Demicleas]

@@geigercourtier he wasent "good" per say. He was a massive asshole infact after he used the crown. He didint really care for anyone besides protecting the world in general. At least untill the crown got destroyed. Guess we ain't having any more death knights.

[@ZephyrusAsmodeus]

I mean... He's not dead

[@yankokassinof6710]

no we havent, didnt gave a shit about him sice he put the crown, bolvar himself said to only go away and never return

[@demanien7722]

I also think that he was just a placeholder for like lich king raid being still a thing after the expansion ended

[@insecdroid]

Also the fact that Bolvar’s been sitting on his ass for about 10 years.

[@christianhaegler4817]

And probably strained the crap out of his power by trying to keep the Scourge contained for those years.

[@grandmarshalrainninja2531]

Hahah haha!!

[@Adirtan]

?????

[@bjornjoseph]

and I get tingly leg for sitting on the toilet too long

[@t.g.3415]

In fairness, so did Arthas after putting on the Helm of Domination. Still, it did not weaken him.

[@neptune.2566]

she did it because she had cold resist

[@irdsqrgitro]

She won cause Blizzard listened to feminists

[@Marqrk]

yas3 zay5961 stop this Your incel is showing

[@irdsqrgitro]

@@Marqrk lol I never had a problem getting pussies. this is about a phenomena of females in entertainment being represented as superior and leading, even in the most unrelated fields

[@neptune.2566]

@@irdsqrgitro that was uncalled for

[@neptune.2566]

@@irdsqrgitro yea REALLY uncalled for

[@projectlifedog1459]

If Thrall is green Jesus, Sylvanas must be purple Satan.

[@mambojambo4870]

omg underrated

[@booodka]

I like that

[@ShaneshaS]

DOOO9 Project: Life thrall is lucifer, Sylvanas is Jesus, she’s saving us all

[@projectlifedog1459]

Oh and Garrosh was brown Hitler btw.

[@eldoh3388]

@Sightless_Seeker if it's evil then by definition it's NOT a Mary Sue

[@insanelol]

Bolvar was a 2h frost DK yrs back and returned and had all his talents and abilities gone

[@hasty-carnaage1518]

... What? The most we saw Bolvar after he became LK was him talking to Tirion. At least until this cinematic. Also it should be pretty obvious that specs are only a gameplay aspect. If you lived in WoW and were a mage. You wouldnt be specifically a Frost mage incapable of other schools of spells unless you only wanted to use one school. Meaning a Dk would not be "limited" to certain weapons other than that individuals skills and knowledge. Sorry. Drunk rant lol

[@DKpower470]

This honestly made me laugh so much

[@insanelol]

@@hasty-carnaage1518 You're using your brain too much on my comment

[@hasty-carnaage1518]

@@insanelol trust me, i know. I got what you were saying I just went on a rant. What I said is accurate though. Some people genuinely talk about specs when it comes to lore and it makes me cringe.

[@comentariorandom1264]

@@hasty-carnaage1518 your comments make me cringe

[@chaosandgore5099]

"Blizzard doesn't do that very much". Proceeds to kill N'zoth, the Old God they have been hyping up since Wrath the same way they killed the squid thing in Starcraft, and then state "nope, all the Old Gods are dead" despite Yog Saron only being contained and that Azeroth was so infested by the Old Gods, that if they were to die, so would Azeroth.

[@chrismistretta4801]

wow is that what they did with Nzoth? How disappointing

[@greatman707]

Kamehameha'd to oblivion with lotr sauron explosion

[@cosmepontet9605]

Wait did they say C’thun and Yogg Saron are dead?!

[@TheHelix123]

Belular said that Nzoth was purified not killed.

[@bell5082]

@No Chance Without Pasta We killed the "avatar" or "manifestation" of C'Thun and Yog, they are still alive. Unless blizzard decides to handwave that.

[@billmarion5796]

In that one cinematic the young Troll dude talks about how Saurfang had killed entire groups of enemy soldiers. Also he held back the entire Alliance advance into Lordaeron by himself. I'm pretty Saurfang isn't just slightly above average.

[@Marconius6]

It would have been handled pretty well, if all this stuff was in the game and not in books. Oh, and not Horde only... you see even less of this as Alliance.

[@hirumaredx]

No one would read it anyway and still complain. I do agree it would be super awesome to see all this stuff in game as well.

[@bubblisimo]

Even without reading the books, Sylvanas' power gain shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone who even half paid attention to the story while playing through BFA. Though, to your point about the books, I also wish more of the story was told in game.

[@Marconius6]

@@bubblisimo I play Alliance, I saw Sylvanas like 3 times over all of BfA: once in Lordaeron, once murdering Horde leaders for some reason, and then at the very end. The first two of these her power levels seemed pretty normal. I also saw her fight Genn in Legion, and again, her power levels seemed pretty normal.

[@KC-py5vq]

Marconius warcraft lore is extremely vast. There’s no way to fit all of it in game. Yes, they could handle it better via in game, but there’s so much stuff that has a deeper meaning to it that it wouldn’t be able to make it in game and most players wouldn’t read the shit anyway and still complain. That’s why they save it for the books, for the lore nerds to read such as myself.

[@tohothewriter8002]

Could you imagine the file size of a given expansion like BfA if it included more of the lore that got "relegated" to books? I'm talking somewhere in the range of 150-200 gigs in content primarily comprised of cinematics and in-game/engine cutscenes... which not a lot of devs want to do because it requires a lot more time to produce than a pre-rendered cinematic cutscene fight like those shown in the video. Modern AAA games average between 65 and 90 gigs, sometimes 100-120 gigs if you throw in 4k 60 FPS textures, so I shudder at how much disc space one WoW lore book would take if it was all done in-game. It'd be the about the same size as a full expansion itself easily, on top of the expansion's content.

[@adamwalas8647]

The storytelling was simply handled too poorly. Off-screen things like this are always seen as bad writing because...well it simply is. But simply to counter some of your arguments Hiru: 1. The duel with Greymane was not the show of her power. a) He was trying to find out what was she attempting and he was trying to stop her - that's why he went for the lantern and not for her throat. b) The worgen are stronger then humans - yes, but they aren't as effective in the "wolf form" as the night elves, simply because their connection to nature and Goldrin gave them grater power and efficiency. 2. The Helm of Domination was said to be: a) Indestructible b) Giving the wielder great mental power making them control every undead creature in hundreds and thousands of miles. This was said to be with Bolvar as well. 3. The fight with Malfurion...Xavius won with him almost efortllesly and he was in Valshara, his territory. The book simply includes that Sylvanas (again, from an unknown source) has gotten more power and is able to beat the archdruid. And she was barely able to beat him on his territory while Xavius bested him with ease. So not really an achievement here... 4. The cinematic itself... While I can believe she was able to duel and win with Bolvar, because he had no frostmourne and a full saronite armor and she was actually "getting better" over the years there is this one moment when she faces the new Lich King and his minions...about 200-300 troops. SERIOUSLY?! Wiping out an entire army by herself?! This is the most OP part of the cinematic, not that we see it, cause she simply kills them all off screen! This is the biggest bullshit. An entire army! I stated in the cinematic on youtube something that I will state here: Let's compare 2 situations and think about the results: 1. Highlord Tirion Fordring (wielding the legendary and ultimate weapon against the undead - the Ashbringer) with the forces of the Argent Crusade combined with the forces of the Alliance and Horde as well as the Knights of the Ebon Blade assault the Icecrown Citadel after months of preparations, with heroic effort they fight their way through the relentless armies of the Scourge and ultimately the Highlord (wielding the powers of the Light) is imbued in ice and the best group of champions of the entire world are wiped out to only best the Lich King with a chunk of luck and the help of the Light itself that granted a boon to the Highlord, and after that the champions had to be ressurected to best the mighty foe. At long last with countless sacrifices it is done and the Lich King is defeated. To do the math: Tirion Fordring with the Ashbringer and the power of the Light, supported with the best of the best from the entire world, Argent Crusade, KotEB, Alliance and Horde VS The Lich King wielding the blade Frostmourne and the relentless armies of the Scourge. Result: The scourgelord is barely beaten and it's because of his own miscalculations and the interfeerence of the Light itself. 2. Sylvanas Windrunner enters Icecrown Citadel like it's nothing, kills the entire army of the Scourge (off-screen) and owns Bolvar the Lich King like it's nothing special. To do the math: Sylvanas Windrunner (no special weapon, no army) VS The Lich King (a hammer with unknown origin - let's say irrelevant) and the relentless armies of the Scourge. Result: Sylvanas owns the entire Scourge herself...simply. Someone said that bad storytelling is "When you put something out and then have to explain everything and make excuses for it." If this isn't shity writing then I don't want to know shity writing.

[@PetkoNikolov92]

this !

[@shippy1001]

Agreed, you sir deserve a thumbs up!

[@LyaksandraB]

Of course this moron has no idea what good writing is. Don't bother countering his "arguments". He called a retcon "good". A retcon is a clear sign of bad writing. There are no "good" retcons.

[@amenlajamir7310]

True very true

[@johannessimola1615]

Eh it was well established the nightmare powers which xavius wielded are cryptonite to druids and creatures tied to nature like most wild gods. We see in WotA book were malfurion drives archimonde away ALONE or wc3 manual were appretince malfurion ALONE fought Aszhara using the well to a standstill during original WotA.... Helm of dominion was said to be nearly indestructible not completele and that words have being used by blizz alot of times like from elementium, saronite and blackrock ore and we see them brake many times ingame aswell. Well yeah its bad storytelling but it came from wotlk when alot of people complained that character relationship from the books aren't coming into play for exemple Rhonins and DW or DW vengeace towards khadgar from BtDP or how nobody complained how most of Varian character dev came from books not from ingame and his temperature changed completely after wolfheart.... there are many others if these examples.....

[@xstoofpeer]

''saurfang threw an axe into malfurion's back'' ''it only took a minor intervention from an above average soldier'' That's an understatement if I ever heard one.

[@thezerowulf507]

Because hes a sylvanus apologist

[@sninctbur3726]

Where's the understatement? Saurfang DID throw an axe into Malfurion's back, and he IS an above-average soldier. Hell, the Chuck Norris-esque jokes are canon according to Zekhan.

[@xstoofpeer]

@@sninctbur3726 I mean the ''minor intervention from an above average soldier''. An axe in the back from Saurfang is NOT a ''minor intervention''. This is also a guy with extreme amounts of experience who also hurt Sylvanas, which not even The Lich King could do.

[@christianhaegler4817]

@@xstoofpeer The Lich King strangled her and was fully capable of doing more to her if we didn't come in. Saurfang got a lucky, shallow cut in, something he wouldn't have been able to follow up on, even if she didn't end things there. It's hard to compare these two.

[@Trashimus]

@@christianhaegler4817 Arthus was able to strangle her, not bolvar

[@_yiggy]

>two handed axe into the back >a "minor" intervention

[@bradypus55]

"This is a symptom of bad writing and it's a good thing blizzard doesn't do that very much" *pressing X to doubt intensifies*

[@wibleston]

Multiple Xs have been pressed

[@UghieYucky]

Easy: By the power of being Danuser's waifu bodypillow.

[@UghieYucky]

@Mermaid 7 : No, his powers were weakened already, it started in Warcraft when he began losing control of the Scourge. Also, it was a joke. Just because a character has a vagina and I hate it doesn't mean that I only hate her because she's a woman. There are many male characters I despise, such as Saurfang and Anduin. I hate bad writing, period. Please stop living in a shoebox.

[@NO-ib1je]

Mermaid 7 oh my god your comment gave me cancer. What the hell?? No where in the lore INSIDE WC (books are not relevant to the game, hence why there is a huge disconnect in the lore in game and out) does it say she was any stronger, that’s yet to be found out. Shut the fuck up you dumb fuck.

[@thahoule7924]

@Mermaid 7 except the lich king could create more valjyr, if he wanted to....read chronicles 3. nerzhl figured out how to create valkyr himself. but bolvar wasnt trying to create more of them, bc he didnt want the scourge to get stronger. and he couldnt stop the valkyr from choosing her bc he literally had the crown on for a few hours max. arthas for example slept for a couple of years dude. stop bitching about sexism when it isnt about sexism. not in the slightest. fckn idiot

[@zsushi3316]

@Mermaid 7 lore lore lore bruh. blizzard can always make like ohhhhh the Titian got out of their prison and give up all their power to sylvanas. why? cuz it's lore

[@UghieYucky]

@@DekkarJr : I know its not bad writing all the time. She used to be one of my favorite characters in the lore.

[@Imbalanxd]

I feel like if there were simply deals that could be made in order for someone to be as powerful as Malfurion, then there would be a whole lot of evil people running around that were way stronger than anyone on the "good" side.

[@evilmuffins22]

you either die a hero or get resurrected enough times to become the villain. - Slyvanas

[@HorusHeresy1982]

Given the Arthas' ability to just kill everyone at the end of ICC and the Thunder King couldn't I did read slightly more into the Lich Kings power than he's given credit for.

[@caramelcorn6777]

Boy oh boy, I'm so excited by Sylvanas' story. I sure am glad there's never been a story about a Horde Warchief being questionably handed their Warchief status from the previous Warchief, only to wreak havoc and cause impossibly large-scale destruction, and be questioned by other leaders of the Horde, especially the Tauren one, and kill a well-liked leader, only to eventually turn against the Horde and spit on it, gain a ridiculously high amount of evil power, be besieged at Orgrimmar, and flee to another world/dimension to be fought in the next expansion. While we're at it, I'm so happy that the retcon completely shreds apart Sylvanas' Stormheim storyline, where she half selfishly, half for the sake of her people made a shady deal with Helya to get an artifact that would allow her to subjugate the queen of the Val'kyr to make more Val'kyr to make more Forsaken and provide better insurance against being permanently dead, only to have Genn destroy the precious artifact, leaving her and the Forsaken's livelihood and future completely in question. So happy her character assassination, er I mean development, makes it so that she doesn't care about the Forsaken anymore, and she's suddenly the most powerful leader/main character in WoW because "The Jailer."

[@whitewarwolf]

Let’s not forget she’s never really cared for the forsaken in Warcraft three. Secretly turned The Tauren emissary went to her city (via the player in starting zone quest), knew the truth about what happens to the blood elves (who seemed fine with her keeping the demon the screwed them over and forced them to flee into Outland) she’s never been a good person there isn’t any character to character assassin

[@caramelcorn6777]

Oh I agree that she's always been pretty evil. I meant more so that she was becoming of a more explicitly stupid/boring vein of evil and losing what little interesting or redeeming character she had. Kind of like how in Legion, the Alliance leaders were at least mildly competent, but in BFA they were constantly holding the idiot ball so Sylvanas' schemes would work.

[@schmittywerbenjagermanjens2649]

I don’t think you really have any idea what you’re talking about. Sylvanas has never really given a shit about anyone else but herself, at least since she’s been undead. Maybe she cares a little about nathanos, but only because of his devotion to her no matter what. Sylvanas was always shown as being cunning, manipulative, vindictive, selfish, and pretty clever. I don’t get how any of sylvanas’s character arc this far going into shadowlands has surprised anyone. And how can you say it’s character assassination? Lol she’s never been a good person, maybe when she were a blood elf but not since she was raised by arthas.

[@caramelcorn6777]

You're right, I don't know Sylvanas too well; I'm not a master of lore and I don't play Horde side very much, and I was probably seeing things that just weren't there. However, making her this boring evil and selfish cartoon villain retroactively nullifies the few parts of her I did find interesting. I should clarify that Sylvanas losing the Forsaken's future was significant regardless of how much she actually cared about them as a people. The Forsaken were a serious and significant resource to her, and only a stupid evil villain would outright ignore a chance to increase their (and by extension their own) power like that. However, at least from the loyalist ending to the war campaign, Sylvanas did seem to feel some small bit for the Forsaken, if only pity and she still exploited them. When I say character assassination, I mean to say that character traits that made her appealing have been lost or nullified. Sylvanas is 'cunning, manipulative, clever,' and while the writers seem to have attempted to portray her as that, it just doesn't feel genuine. Half of Sylvanas' plans at Lordaeron only worked because the Alliance was painted as complete morons. The Outriggers in Boralus can rig protective masks against the plague on the fly, but the Alliance wholeheartedly goes to the Undercity with not a single plan against it? And then she waits in the throne room to spring her "If I can't win, neither can you?" plan that nearly killed a group of the Alliance's most prominent leaders, and they fell for that most obvious trap? And then at the end, both sides simply fly away when it looked like Jaina could just open up another arcane cannon barrage at the Horde and end them there. This writing doesn't make me think Sylvanas is cunning; it makes me think that her plans are both costly and mediocre, and the Alliance are giant idiots for falling for them. In fairness, the implications/foreshadowing for Sylvanas' manipulations aren't too bad, but the big reveal of Sylvanas working for an incredibly powerful patron simply does not fit very cleanly, and feels very retroactively spliced into her entire story. The worst offender overall is the Shadowlands Cinematic. Sylvanas walks into Icecrown, solos Bolvar and his undead there, and wins. While it's an excellent showcase of the new power level the writers want us to know she has, it is an incredibly braindead move on her part. Heck, even Bolvar is arguably more creative and clever with his abilities than she is with hers during their fight. Since the War of Thorns, there was little question that Sylvanas would go the way of Garrosh. The only reason I can think of that people would by surprised by what happened is the reasoning that "surely they wouldn't turn Sylvanas into Garrosh 2.0."

[@darkwhispersstories47]

@@caramelcorn6777 if you play Silvanas Loyalist(which i did) she will say she had Pitty for the Forsakens. As samoane that had played horde before let me tell you she could never actually give more than 2 shits about anyone she will only care if you helped her in her plans on the long Run aka Loyalists that she can count on. She was the 1 who came with the idea of The plague, she was the 1 who used it against the Worgens, she killed thousands of lifes to ressurect them as Forsakens, the only reason Sylvanas even helped in Legion is cause it wont Benefit the Jailer for the Legion to win Stealing souls from him and overall the Lwgion winning will be against her plans..the destruction of the Artefact by Glenn made her Desparate now in order to preserve her powers and control she needed the Jailer direct intervention. I cant speak for every single Forsaken or horde player but from my perspective she was Neutral Evil at her very best the reason why i choice to follow her is cause quite honestly Idc about the rest Deus ex friendship saving the day or in case of BFA and the alliance *deus ex Jaina Proudmore saving the day* Sylvanas is more of s fluid character not bind by such concepts as Honor and fair fight..wars are not about that no one never 1 by those who played fair without decieving its enemy.. Also ya i blame you alliance bastards for turning your back on us😂

[@toshley6192]

Wait, what? Did he just say that they retconned it so the Legion found the Lich King's helm and Frostmourne in the Shadowlands? WoW: Chronicles, which is supposed to be the cannon story going forward, went into quite a lot of detail about how the Lich King was created. After going through a portal as Draenor tore apart, Ner'Zhul ended up on a Legion world, where he was immediately captured and tortured. Broken and insane, he agreed to a deal with Kil'Jaeden, who then passed Ner'Zhul's spirit through death, turning him into a spectral entity. "The Dreadlords bound Ner'Zhuls disembodied spirit to a SPECIALLY CRAFTED set of armor, and a magic runeblade named Frostmourne." - quote from Chronicles vol.3 The Legion then encased the newly formed Lich King into a comet and flung him at Azeroth, where he would crash into the Icecrown Glacier, and kick off Warcraft: 3 If they're already retconning WoW:Chronicles, that's not a great sign.

[@rossato2109]

Dude, they have been retconing stuff since Warcraft 3 really. Blizzard is terrible in keeping up with the game lore. When it comes to WoW the very first major screw up was the eredar/draenei/Sargeras retcon in TBC (a fuck up done by Metzen btw). When we think about its completly pointless to discuss the story of a game the creators themselves don't care to take seriously.

[@JaceDraccus]

I'm not sure they said those things were simply found in the Shadowlands, just that more detail would be revealed about how/where they were made.

[@Imbalanxd]

I don't think the creation was retconned, they just changed the part where Arthas randomly found Frostmourne chilling in Northrend. Not sure what Kelthuzads role is then, though.

[@MatijaReby]

If people actually listened they would hear that the dreadlords made them with the help of the Shadowlands and not just randomly snatched. They wont scrap chronicles for no reason, although its not a fully cannon story since it is written from a certain perspective (which you can notice by reading the preface text by the authors) it is a small retcon of the pre-chronicle lore since Kil'Jaeden didnt give them the helmet himself, but thats reasonable with what dreadlords are in comparison to the rest of the Legion.

[@MatijaReby]

@@rossato2109 ye lets continue writing a pointless story where nothing we wanna explore can happen cause we didnt think 5 years into the future :)

[@SamuraiMotoko]

Some times I wonder how long you can drag the "you just don't know what we are cooking" before it just stupid.

[@coleragsdale4827]

It already has been for awhile now

[@Shiirow]

its the new "Its merely a setback" meme.

[@DrakeLord213]

So, in short, they explain everything important that details her rise to power in books that 1% of the player base is even aware of. Having books to supplement your lore and fill in details is cool and all, but if I have to do research on a game just to understand why Sylvanas can now just do whatever the narrative demands, well it doesn't feel very satisfying. I don't even mind having to go and read extra content when I have to, but there should have at least been some allusion, some general sense of the situation. Because as it stands, it just seems like her power level varies as the situation demands. Not that my opinion should matter, haven't played WoW since WotLK, and haven't regretted it since.

[@NickStrife]

Your last sentence is the reason you do not like the development of the lore.. You just cannot play.. That's just it.. Admit it and gtfo..

[@daniellemckenna8576]

Wtf? Dude, if you don't get to not even play the game and then *whinge* about not being able to follow Sylvanas' plotline and the rest of the game's story. The story in game is serviceable for the gameplay, and the books and extra content are there if you want to go deeper and fully understand the story. They can't put the lore laid out in Three Sisters, Before the Storm, and the other short stories in as gameplay - it wouldn't work - so they made them extra material for if you're interested.

[@Deadman6]

In Cata it was so confusing why Thrall was suddenly friends with the Dragon Aspects.

[@LvLUpProject]

That moment when Sylvanas asked to speak to the manager of ICC but knows the CEO of death.

[@brandondavidson4085]

Sylvanas' story always made sense in the light of her suicide and her fear of death itself. Sylvanas slowly accumulated power in order to protect herself from death forever.

[@frebu5379]

Sylvanas's post Vanilla story was effectively "Arthas but shittier". She was given a reprieve from the nightmare of the scourge and then decided to shack up with one of it's main architects and plot a new version of the scourge under her command. She SHOULD have been put down after the Wrath gate but plot armor kept her alive and its been a downward spiral ever since.

[@kaoshunter13]

Not to mention, Frostmourne also gave Arthas considerable power, growing with every soul it stole, and Bolvar lacked that power, alongside a greatly diminished Scourge army, so Bolvar had to rely on what little power he gained from the helm and his experience in combat, while Arthas had a mass army and the thousands of souls trapped in Frostmourne empowering him, plus Frostmourne was a extension of himself, bound to him.

[@EndLineGamer]

Kaos Hunter he did say that

[@lowesmanager8193]

The Scourge army has barely been diminished, that's the whole reason why Bolvar needed to be the Jailer of the Damned because they would become an even greater threat if left uncontrolled.

[@Froggeh92]

Also arthas was a god mode pally before. Not that bolvar was a push over

[@Tomoyo0827]

I’d say the lich king’s power level is drastically overrated. When the ash bringer shattered the frostmourne he couldn’t even fight the souls attacking him, meaning the majority of arthas power came from the blade. Lich king is a summoner, it like demo lock, very weak without the minions

[@serhatkarabeyli9818]

Ah yes not like Bolvar is a mighty warrior with frontline experience that would compare to a Dreanor warlord. Sylvanas winning aganist him in one on one combat is still just plot bs.

[@saphironkindris]

Realizing Arthas is mainly so powerful because of his Maw based weapons and armor, no wonder, he was using equipment from like six expansions ahead of where the player characters were at the time.

[@BepisQueen]

Since Sylvanas essentially requires a raid group of max level players to kill in game, it’s no surprise she can solo ICC

[@BepisQueen]

Crominus is it not?

[@Oskxre]

Crominus kobolds are strong af, they fucked me up from lvl 1-3.

[@harutothefriendlyodst7639]

@@crominus9300 r/wooosh

[@DDawg612]

"Greymane doesn't exactly win, but he does put up a pretty good fight." Oh he wins alright. The Worgen form fills your head with nothing but rage. All you see is red and you become completely uncontrollable. At the beginning of the fight he is giving into that rage which is what's leading him to be on top of the brawl. However, he calms himself halfway through even though he's literally cursed with rage, and does what he has to do. He absolutely won.

[@CremeDeLaNut]

What gets me is that everytime Sylvanas is seen in game or in cinematics there is always this big mystery. Its been going on for so long now that no matter how they take her story, its just not going to pay off.

[@antongunther3977]

the TL;DR of this is that one of the main authors has waifu'd her.

[@mikaeldahlqvist399]

Steve fuckin' Danuser

[@RipperGand]

Danuser

[@TheSacredMaster]

lol

[@antongunther3977]

@Mermaid 7 just like how you are psyco-analyzing people you dont know over the internet and amusing that they are misogynists?

[@sincodemayo]

@Mermaid 7 you had me in the first half, till you brought up the stupid shit abt misogyny

[@Jay_76]

I'm sure there was a lot of fascinating lore and information in this video. But all I heard was "Sylvanas destroyed the Lich King and his army by having been given plot armor thick enough to tank a fully powered Sargeras!".

[@hugomendoza5665]

Well at least you're being straightforward about admitting you're just being a contrarian naysayer.

[@Omega900]

At this point if there is another Burning Legion invasion, Sylvanas will solo them all...

[@Afthrast]

this was the longest "because they retconned stuff" yet

[@quantumblurrr]

@Peri OListo A nerdy black haired guy called Nathan?

[@joexer1]

@Peri OListo Not true

[@htennek1]

2 YEARS LATE!! Because sylvanas is *the* Mary Sue with the thickest of plot armor, yo!

[@dread3982]

I have never been scared by Druids before I AM NOW

[@hirumaredx]

The horde soldiers were terrified of Malfurion during A Good War. They knew they had Sylvanas and a large army though, so they pressed on anyway.

[@Boomken76]

ya the first time I saw him pull that orc into the ground I was, Wait what?!? O_o

[@HavocHounds1988]

@@hirumaredx In The War of the Ancients I believe it was he was able to conjure tornadoes that thrummed with lightning.

[@gmoddude12]

they tend to get underestimated alot cause we rarely see them really show off what the power to command nature itself can actually do sorta the same as aquaman from dc that dude also gets shit on alot since dc sorta makes a joke out of him even though his power is terrifying

[@potatosaladinc7488]

@@gmoddude12 lesson to be learned never underestimate nature ever

[@justsomeguywithagoatee8337]

*"That would be a symptom of bad writing, and Blizzard doesn't do that much."* I honestly have to ask if that was satire. You said it stone faced, but I interpret as though you just said you went to Saturn for lunch in a completely serious tone.

[@HaloLvl43Legit]

Pretty sure he's actually shilling... He literally wrote off Saurfang as "an above average soldier" because some quest text/books said so while ignoring feats and all the text where many revered or feared as a legendary fighter.

[@Xero_Kaiser]

Yeah, how anyone can claim that Blizzard, "doesn't do that much" bad writing after playing...pretty much anything they've put out in the past 7 or 8 years is a mystery to me.

[@Maniaman213]

@@HaloLvl43Legit Stop thinking of shit in anime terms, powerlevels and "feats" are nonsense. Broxxigar had "feats" didnt stop him from being a shit character. Also calling people shills for not agreeing with you is childish.

[@LyaksandraB]

Of course this moron has no idea what good writing is. He called a retcon "good". A retcon is a clear sign of bad writing. There are no "good" retcons.

[@Torguish]

@@LyaksandraB X-men days of future past

[@misanthropiclusion]

She did it because she went to a lower level raid while max level. Seriously tho I feel she wants to undo death itself not out of rightousness but because she is narcisistic and has always been (imagine not killing Arthas when you could've because you just want to make him suffer and die slowly) and she is not willing to go to the afterlife and pay for the shit she did in "life/undead" so might as well get rid of the whole thing.

[@KC-py5vq]

Sky Wolf uh no, she has always been crazy

[@joshuakim5240]

To be fair, wasn't the big twist of Arthas that after "beating" him, he went "Ah, sweet nice warmup" and then instantly 1-shot the entire lvl80 party to show that was trolling the entire time? The raid may have been for lvl80, but Arthas was waaaaay above that level and just used the party for his afternoon crunches.

[@tohothewriter8002]

@@skywolf7717 Or maybe she's running all over the place in the name of everything she stands for. What that is might have changed over time however. No real way to know until Shadowlands' "bad writing" delivers you everything on a silver platter.(that was sarcasm, don't read too much into it)

[@tohothewriter8002]

@cody davis To end such a thing would basically equate to immortality.

[@comentariorandom1264]

"not killing Arthas when you could've" LMAO

[@ZombieFighter95]

"Minor intervention" An axe to the head of an unprepared person isn't minor. Even if it's Malfurion, an axe directly to the back with him being unable to block or dodge is essentially near-fatal. And if we go by ingame health percentage, Sylvanas is close to death, while Malfurion is barely below half health, so he's taken a beating, but he still stands. The fight really wasn't that close.

[@ZombieFighter95]

Not to mention there are dead Horde all around them, so Sylvanas had help.

[@ZanathKariashi]

well technically.. he COULD have dodged it. he is an NPC, they can dodge attacks from behind.

[@lunadesouzasanches6909]

The Warlock's Metamorphosis brought tears to my eyes.... I miss it so much.

[@sussudio5210]

Awesome video my friend, beautifully composed and simply explained especially with regards to respective power levels to people like Malfurion. One thing to also remember about Bolvar, aside from not having Frostmourne, is that he never did anything in all his time as Lich King to invest in or enhance his powers - he simply remained as "Jailor of the Damned" He never delved into necromancy or looked for any way to raise his indvidual prowess like Arthas did. We see that at the very beginning of the cinematic in fact - he is still glowing with the embers of fire from Alexstrasza, exactly like he did from the moment he put on the helm, and all the way through Legion too. This cinematic, when he turns blue, is essentially the first time he resorts to giving in and channelling the darker and stronger power of the Lich King - so in many respects, he is a total novice compared to Arthas. Ion also said it himself "Bolvar has one foot in the land of the living, and the other in the realm of Death" - he has never given himself over wholly to the powers of death like Arthas did. This expression of Bolvar tapping into the Lich King's power also gives a further insight into the respective power levels with regards to Sylvanas compared to him - that for the first time EVER since taking on the helm, he considers her enough of an almighty threat to feel the need to utilise all the power at his disposal to stand a chance. All one has to to do is compare how stagnant Bolvar has remained for the past 10 years compared to how Sylvanas has been consistently upping her own power over the same time period, and it's pretty obvious why he lost - but then, as you say "Most people can't even read Quest text". It's just a pity this awesome, brilliantly executed video will fall on deaf ears. But for those of us with an IQ above 50 who can process narratives over more than one expansion and handle more one book at a time, we all know you're right Hiru - don't let the ignorant and the stupid make you feel any different :D

[@Believer1980]

We know how she did it. She has the superpower known as "Plot Armor" . ;P

[@bundleofhumble3119]

@Whiterose Petal Tale Yeah Bolvar was not leading armies before ^^

[@Dbarnes0]

Yes good plot armor, retcons and mystery boxes are apparently very good story writing... Blizz has been taking lessons from JJ Abrams

[@eoskuemin4438]

Indeed, she is powerful, but still soloing an entire army by herself? That’s a bit overkill tbh

[@RvnWolf]

@Whiterose Petal Tale a line that broke down as soon as the shield they had went down.

[@kaineskeptic6484]

@@eoskuemin4438 I dont recall seeing a whole army...

[@zacharyhawley1693]

Let's be honest. That plot armor she has is pretty solid.

[@TheEel228]

Also her plate armor is pretty solid.

[@chrisbordelon5576]

You mean that SJW reinforced stronk womyn armor is pretty solid.

[@GamingTranceSeer]

@@chrisbordelon5576 She don't need no man!

[@numnaut1314]

@Mermaid 7 yeah I know, you think about a decade you would get stronger.

[@Deadman6]

NumNaut He was too good a person to be the evil overlord of the undead.

[@fifo5553]

Sylvanas met doomslayer in hell and now she's too scared to go back

[@davidbanterford3216]

Cos her plot armor > having an army.

[@jiffah]

she had the chains when she used them on Koltira after the battle of Andorhal in Cataclysm.

[@vicente8107]

Off-screen development and plans are never good. It’s the main issue I had with Kerrigan during Brood Wars.

[@MegaReinart]

it is good, keeps the tension up

[@EdwardAlchemist343]

@@MegaReinart it's good for writers sinxe they can always say "but this happened so her actions are consistent". It's bad for players who want to know something but they keep hiding it from us.

[@alberthcuayla1587]

TL:DR Sylavanas was trading Ogrimar Gold for RAID MYTHIC BOE to get that stronk.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

the power of plot armour, thats how. Sylvanas should've been killed by Garrosh in Cataclysm but Sylvanas has her own version of Rey's indestructible plot armour

[@cohngo]

How to make the lore work again? Easy : Red Shirt Guy.

[@skeletor959]

Also, bad writing is keeping information completely out of the hands of the readers and forcing them to make speculations about non-detailed deals, and retconning the abilities of very soundly established artifacts just to push the narrative for purple fem-jesus

[@kaiserhundkek2531]

Fishy There’s only one Jesus character in this game and it’s green Jesus amen.

[@moscanaveia]

@@kaiserhundkek2531 Green jesus was never rezzed tho

[@89qwyg9yqa34t]

"A plan so devious, it took thirty five expansions to come to fruition." Stay tuned...

[@TheEel228]

" FIND OUT TOMORROW!! "

[@bacontrooper4318]

@Mermaid 7 bruh she is just a cartoon villain with a mile thick armor of plot. Id rather murky lead the horde at this point.

[@RaiderReid]

Ok youtube i watched it. Now stop recomend it please!

[@vesical7952]

I'm just glad we got a new actually good antagonist this xpack the jailer. We finely get to see why the titains feared him and his realm

[@cohngo]

Ye he sounds interesting, unlike Sylvanas and her simp army

[@georgepal9154]

so how come the sky didnt crack open dramatically when frostmourne was fragmented and the fragments were made into legendary weapons? rhetorical question, the answer is bad writing!

[@rifqigivari1790]

read the wiki about nazgul

[@draycen7242]

Because the helm of domination is what allows the lich king to raise undead and is the port key to the shadow lands while frostmourne wasn't. Basically, helm of domination is the power, frostmourne just enhances it. Like raw power vs concentrated power frostmourne helps hone that power

[@H1kkiMouse]

Frostmourn gives the power of necromancy and steals souls for its wielder. Helm of Domination basically makes someone an ultimate undead overlord.

[@DerNesor]

her power and intentions have been foreshadowed for so long ... I'll be so excited for what the WoW devs will come up with, once they know what they are going for xD

[@wmv8996]

13:25 Ah, I miss demon form. :(

[@Mike-ff8io]

Right? I love how it was hotwired into the demo lock's normal rotation. DH demon form is just a damage cooldown.

[@mayabc333]

Same here, this is possibly an unpopular opinion but I actually liked the old warlock spells & animations a lot better than the new ones

[@albens5852]

@@meatball349 If necromancer become a thing I wonder if they will take army of the dead from DKs. If I was a DK I would be pissed.

[@albens5852]

@David True

[@GilenoRanna]

It's funny to see how people like this KZbinr goes through all this trouble only to justify the complete disaster that blizzard done to the lore. In the book, Sylvanas says (in her thoughs) that Vol'jin messed up with her plans when she was chosen to be warchief, saying how much she wouldn't like to occupy that post. Later, blizzard simply contradicts itself by letting us know that this was part of Sylvanas plans! This is ridiculous.

[@mjt1517]

Oh relax, Gil. It's just a game. It's not high literature.

[@thecreator625]

@@mjt1517 If a game attempts to tell a story, it is accountable to literary standards.

[@sumerian88]

I believe the Forsaken endgame was always to kill everything and everyone in the end. Sylvanas preferred working from the shadows, not so much in the spotlight. Being thrust into the Warchief position accelerated her plans and agenda, but also put her in a vulnerable position. Her alliance with the Jailor will be detailed in Shadowlands, we'll see how it goes.

[@schmittywerbenjagermanjens2649]

It’s pretty hard to argue with anything in this video though...just cause you might not like it doesn’t mean blizz is shit at writing and they destroyed wow. They setup sylvanas being a psychotic, vindictive bitch a long time ago.

[@noragreen109]

"How did sylvanas wipe out the lich king and his army?" Cas she's a mary sue.

[@lekaiev]

Here's the "average player"

[@lilpenpusher]

I die a little inside everytime I hear "In Zoth"

[@Sir_Jimmothy]

And Teldrassil has another L in there that he's not noticed

[@alpakapucuf3394]

tedrasil

[@Hellraine]

14:55 is a double kick to the gems.

[@Hellraine]

The hell is IN Zoth?

[@r.gletscher5162]

Where did most of arthas power come from? What was it that made him powerful? Bolvar didnt have frostmourne. He has never compared to the lich king in strength. Arthas has been the lich "King", bolvar was just a underpaid placeholder to keep the undead in check.

[@kroolini3678]

not true actually, in warcraft 3 it is confirmed arthas gets his most of his strength from the lich king, since he gets weaker the more the lich king loses power. Suddenly the helmet of domination has been given even more power than before, and still it's because of frostmourne? yeah right

[@Hi-uv8rv]

@@kroolini3678 frostmourne get´s stronger for each person he killed = he killed alot he strong no op sword no op lich king

[@Richard-tj1yh]

Arthas power increased tenfold since becoming the lich king, quote by sylvanas in halls of reflection

[@Kill0rGurke]

If Tirion didnt break the Sword back then, we would never have killed the guy. I mean just look at the Battle from back then, we were fighting him for like 20 minutes just for him to snap a finger and kill us all instantly. Arthas pretty much died to a lucky hit from Ashbringer. Without the sword, the Lich King is far weaker than one would think.

[@kroolini3678]

Lølwut nah but he was powerless when we killed him because of all the souls, idk attacking him? He was just floating about.

[@MrEz4you]

I really like the effort you put in these videos, your videos bring me alot of joy. thank you

[@DemoNXCros]

You should make a How Powerful is "any main wow character/leader" would be a great series !

[@jbabylucus1641]

Glad you made this video. This brings a lot of light to what I was questioning.

[@rudymusicfan]

Seeing the old demonology warlock in your clips makes me sad I miss it :(

[@KurvaNedaSeSemNicDat]

What I dont like about this is that during legion we literally invaded undercity as dks pissed of salvanas then nothing happened and then in the pre-shadowlands cinematic she does this. So my question is. Where were the dk champions the new horsemen and such. How can horde dks still continue serving sylvanas after this. How is it possible dks dont all join alliance now and try to hunt sylvanas. And as was said before yes arthas had frostmourne but still we had to unite the best of the best from whole planet including tirion with motherfckin ashbringer just to enter the citadel itself and sylvanas just walks there and then they are like “its offscreen read book maybe you will find sense in it” and bfa was nothing but one giant plothole my impression from bfa is they took random ppl gave em list of chars they want in expansion the new ppl read some wiki paragraph and wrote random fanfic based on that. Nothing sylvanas did late legion and whole bfa makes any sense so Im really wondering what masterplan they come up with because I bet they dont know her ultimate goal either yet

[@kingtsufuru]

Sylvanas's plans are that secret that even writers don't know them yet xD

[@gulver8693]

She’s powered by the obsessions of her fanboys.

[@DekkarJr]

And the hatred of existence. Which is also a trait of fanboys of all types who probably don't truly understand her character as it is a representation of some people in the real world. Capable, but unwilling, successful but not content, depressive and unseeking of treament or understanding. Cynical, nihilistiic. Etc.

[@BritishTeaFGC]

I'm sorry. I didn't know my obsession was that powerful!

[@darkwhispersstories47]

@@DekkarJr i understand her and i understand she does all the wrong morale choices. But idgf she is the most realistic character in the game while the rest formed the Fellowship of Friendship 😂😂 quite boring imo

[@synmer7104]

@@darkwhispersstories47 evil for the sake of evil is boring too. She is a pointlessly mustache twirling villain, and nobody who cares about writing likes her anymore.

[@МаксимЖуков-я2н]

@@synmer7104 Whats the point of saying what she is pointessly mousctache twirling villian if we don't yet know her full motivation?

[@Lukehk6775]

Real question: Why didn't Bolvar call upon the DKs?

[@Krassus7101]

Luke Kaiser I would think b/c it would take them all some time to get there. I guess he could’ve stalled for time, but his overconfidence was his weakness.

[@Hi-uv8rv]

i think he knew he was outmatched so he did not called the Dk´s becuase it´s just free power for her or something

[@killerbean1337]

Luke Kaiser he dont have power over the dks since they got freed from arthas grasp in wotlk. Also i dont think they wouldnt have the time to get to icc to Help him out and obviously she’s a master strategist and been planning all of this for a very long time without any one knowing.

[@misanthropiclusion]

Supposedly he did, the new allied races DKs are meant to be new ones risen by Bolvar after feeling the threat that was coming, so I suppose sadly we are meant to assume we just didn't make it in time to the top of the citadel lol

[@Marqrk]

I think Bolvar doesn’t have dominion over the Ebon Blade DKs cuz they freed themselves from the Lich King’s control. I know that the spirit of arthas taunts you about it but we don’t know how reliable that is and as far as we know the Ebon Blade is perfectly capable of operating on its own accord and it’s perfectly possible Bolvar just cannot call them at will and can only send a message that they may or may not respond to

[@Dwayneff]

I love how they screwed over malfurion. In old lore, he is the strongest mortal (he is immortal) in azeroth. He killed archimonde for sake.... Sylvanas pre legion had no chance against him much less tyrande. The whole retcon makes me sick.

[@johnwilkerson1511]

I've said it before, she has become "overused". She could kill Anduin with her banshee cry and the light would not be enough to protect him? Hmm, I think he was having a lack of confidence. Otherwise, darkness would always triumph over the light (yes I play Alliance mostly) which is not the case. Yes, it is clear she is getting more power from somewhere and without that power she would be less formidable. I just hope we finally kill her and move on. I would have loved to see how Voljin would have led the Horde long term.

[@SunnyEggLover]

Vol'jin would've been one of the best Horde Chieftains if he hadn't died(to a mob, frick you WoW Writers, he fought amazingly in W3).

[@wolfshanze5980]

So basically, Sylvanas is a carbon copy of purple-haired Admiral Holdo from the Last Jedi... she has a plan, but doesn't bother telling anyone what it is.

[@Lighthammer18]

That is such a common trope everywhere in movies, books, TV shows and video games. "But what's the plan man?!" *Leader walks away mysteriously* I fucking hate it.

[@scottmurphy4946]

Admiral Gender Studies also sat around and waited until most of the ships were shot before acting. At that part of the movie I was happy the First Order was blasting the rebel/resistance / pussyhat wankers

[@thezerowulf507]

@@scottmurphy4946 upvoted because admiral gender studies is the best thing I have ever heard

[@TheSuperRatt]

@George Clark Wow, someone who actually has some sense.

[@lehtivaa]

Sylvanas is a character that has gone too far

[@genultz4866]

See as a lore nerd that spends his time while playing to learn more lore and consume lore both in game and off screen, my biggest complaint is that Sylvanas exists in the way she does. They have 180 turned her character arc and ruined what was once a character people could relate to in a form.

[@omgroflgamer2010]

She used to be the leader of the Forsaken, the undead people that had no place in the world, and cared about them and only them while seeking revenge against Arthas, who turned her and the people she now leads into monsters. All dialogue etc. made her seem rather cold and uncaring unless it was about the well-being of the Forsaken. Now she is just some overpowered evil supposed mastermind that shits out new dramatic dark and edgy powers whenever it suits the "story" and you just can't relate to anything she does anymore or understand her motivations because blizzard goes "oooh well we'll maybe potentially probably per chance eventually find out how she does things and why" by staying as vague as can be with most everything that resembles her motivation.

[@crikeybaguette4564]

They gave her the Daenerys treatment.

[@philbradley5535]

In looking back, I think the player base has a part in this, not just Blizz. There had been a swelling, since Vanilla, for Sylvanas to be 'substantial', to be a big part of the future of the game's lore. So many 'Sylvanas fans'. For so long she was just there, and lore was created for her , about her past, (but from the standpoint of the game, yet not doing or being involved in much for Vanilla and TBC). Then lo and behold, she started to become 'substantial'. It's there that I think Blizz went awry in making her a demigod (maybe something more than a demigod). It's just spun out of control.

[@JohnathonRob]

Garrosh: First time?

[@springbreak2021]

Wow thanks so much this actually really cleared things up for me and def encouraged me to get the book before shadowlands here

[@conorthemick]

Fantastic work my friend! A big Thank you from all the of us quest lore clicker throughers

[@jimmcphearson7252]

We're just ignoring shit like Sylvanas being afraid of Baine in that one novel? Gotcha, you're right, stellar writing.

[@jimmcphearson7252]

Also don't talk so much shit on player's attentiveness while you still say "Ehn Zoth" instead of "Nuh Zoth"

[@kahmul]

that was in mists of pandaria, whats your point?

[@jimmcphearson7252]

@@kahmul Well the deal with the jailer was apparently made around the time after Sylvanas's suicide. So she goes from fearing Baine and internally monologuing how she curses Vol'jin in Before the Storm for making her warchief to singlehandedly beating the first and most powerful druid with no change in power source. Just seems inconsistent.

[@sussudio5210]

@@jimmcphearson7252 Both Jon Hight and Ion said at BlizzCon that death "broke", as in, all souls started heading to the maw around the last events of Legion - this would have been before the War of Thorns where she fights Malfurion, so that is your power source I would say

[@jimmcphearson7252]

@@sussudio5210 Fair enough. It's just frustrating that Warcraft seems to have been pulling sudden power level switches all over when before it seemed everyone had vulnerability. Medivh was a guardian of Tirisfal empowered by the dark Titan who still was defeated by his talented apprentice Khadgar. Gul'dan was darkness incarnate, a mortal who embraced the fel to become more but was easily dispatched by demons in the Tomb of Sargeras. Varian the High King of the Alliance was felled by demons. Arthas fell to the Light. Sylvanas and Nathanos seemingly can handwave established characters away simply because someone of the writing staff (Afrasiabi) will do everything to protect their favorite characters. Metzen wasn't perfect, but I miss him.

[@exmaarmaca]

At this point is a delicacy to see all the arguing on the comment section, that is the real "BFA".

[@grujson4012]

Hiru, I rly like how you make lore so simple yet so detailed and understandable ❤️

[@berner]

Blizzard saw that Sylvanas needed more power to break through that glass ceiling, so what better a way to do it than to wipe out the Lich King and his army along with wiping out the soul of Garrosh Hellscream to ensure the world never became toxicly masculine and thus completely remove an incredibly beloved Orc who had a massive fan following. Er I mean cuz she's like so powerful and evil 'n stuff, yeah! Go Sylvanas!

[@Lordturisas1]

"An above average soldier like Saurfang..." Also known as the Supreme Commander of the Might of Kalimdor.

[@Heavymetal16]

"a little above average soldier" orly? Is that what Surfang is lol

[@chibi_taiki4066]

Michael Johansen yeah i agree with his points but disrespectin Surfang like that is a NO GO

[@defsky8610]

Yeah that was pretty dumb of him to say.

[@Ayenam55]

well, yea,in terms of strenght. At the same time Sylvannas's pet , Blightcaller, lorewise he would be a little stronger(maybe) than saurfang. And he somehow managed to deal with Malfurion and Tyrande(in demigod form). I mean , there's quite a lack of consistency ..

[@Reflox1]

Yeah, he's just a warrior. He's a skilled tactician and a great duelist, BUT he has no magical abilities whatsoever. In a fight, all he can do is hit hard and fast, while someone like Malfurion, Sylvanas or even Anduin can pull out tricks from their magic pocket that would keep Saurfang at a distance or wound him without even touching him. So compared to all the different magic users he's just an "above average soldier".

[@t.g.3415]

@@Reflox1 You would be wrong. Take Broxigar for example. "Just a warrior" as you said. No magical abilities, nothing. Still, he singlehandedly wounded Sargeras himself. Sargeras. Someone way, WAAAAAAY above Sylvanas. Just a warrior. So no, Saurfang being "just a warrior" by no means has to put him beneath magic users by default. After all, few "magic users" can topple Titans themselves...

[@destabilizedamerica4198]

Either I'm missing something or the reason Sylvannas destroyed the Helm of Domination, instead of putting it on, just to get to the Death realm, made no sense. Maybe she was promised a new and improved version of it in exchange for completing certain tasks?

[@ZanathKariashi]

I'm assuming she basically pulled an Illidan, and breaking the helm in this world has created a bridge to allow her allies in the Shadowlands have much more free access to our world, that they can now work on pushing wider until it completely swallows the living world. She somehow managed to captured most of the important faction leaders offscreen (which I assume we'll see somewhere closer to shadowlands). So I'm assuming she was able to bring in a lot more powerful hired help. Or making that connection allowed her to access even greater power than she'd had before.

[@hotaru1231]

so as an alliance player i wouldnt know any of it xD

[@ivxxi1960]

haha same dude..

[@Cr0zzle]

Not even Horde players would know any of it and this dude acts as if anyone paying any attention would know how powerful Sylvanas has gotten. Bullshit if you ask me.

[@AvenonPlays]

Probably small thing to add, she is a true High Elf (albeit an undead one) but that can contribute to her mastery of any form of magic as High Elves were very adept magic users. This is also seen in her sister Alleria Windrunner.

[@crisbarr1592]

Finally a video not hating and with real analisis. Congrats

[@raydengeluykens9782]

This video really helped couse i was confused how she defeated bolvar so easy now i know tnx really great video keep it up

[@BitOfBuffoonery]

A long winded rant about the problems I got here: 1) The axe to Malfurion's back did over 75% of his health if we're going by whats represented in game. I don't qualify this as "Minor intervention from an above average soldier" 2) The duel between Sylvanas and Saurfang was stacked in Sylvanas' favor, but she wouldn't have been able to parry and block those hits from Saurfang. I'm fine if you have a character that's a warlock that fights like a warlock, or a ranger that fights like a ranger, but being a warlock/ranger that can match the physical strength of a warrior is a bit much. 3) I feel the argument of "The Lich King has stronger army, so must be weaker in single combat" somewhat valid, but why have Sylvanas take out all the threat in the army off screen? And judging by the fact she still has all the enchanted arrows she needs to win the fight against Bolvar, that means she must have killed a small undead horde, with the help of their leader, with her daggers. 4) I understand that Sylvanas got a lot of power out of "deals", but lets be honest here, they weren't deals at all. What did Sylvanas lose in her pact with Helya? Clearly not her soul, as she continues with her prior ambitions and plans without an obstacle. And Xal'Atath? Xal'Atath simply acted as a compass before being given to another character. The Jailer? We can only assume that her deal with him had her stipulation being the breaking of the Helm of Domination, but due to her personal vendetta against Lich Kings, she may have damned well done it herself. 5) I disagree with your opinion that Blizzard would have to yell the main motivations and power levels of their characters during major cinematics being the only way that the majority of people would understand what's going on in the cut scene. A good example of Blizz doing something that made sense, that a majority of the playerbase understood, and wasn't necessarily expected, would be the Wrathgate. The reason a cinematic such as the Wrathgate works is because there was consistent, good, storytelling that portrayed the creation of a plague, and they finally got to surprise the playerbase with when it was released. 5.5) On the subject of storytelling, Due to the amount of Quest-Text, Quests the player does, Dungeons, Raids, Visions, World Quests, Dailies, Assaults, and (to a lesser extent) Warfronts/Islands, I see no reason that the story can't be told in a meaningful, consistent way, throughout the course of the expansion, that doesn't rely on a novel to fix the lore. This isn't dissing novels either, as i see no problem telling a story set in the warcraft universe in detail. The problem arises when its relied upon to justify the actions that players see in game. 6) I disagree that people are complaining about Sylvanas' power level as compared to her state in Cataclysm Questing. I don't know a single person who compared the two versions of the character, as, in a fantasy setting, important characters tend to get at least slightly more powerful over time. The hero's journey, as it were. 7) I would also like to make the arguement that not all of this fight was because of how supposedly overpowered Sylvanas is, but also how shockingly underpowered Bolvar is. Keep in mind Bolvar was an excellent warrior, a notable paladin, and, most recently, the Lich King. I would like to raise the argument that Bolvar may have been able to retain some of his abilities as a paladin, at least for a "Light grant me one final Blessing" moment, as I don't think Bolvar ever abandoned the light at all. TL;DR, Sylvanas has bad writing, and I disagree with Hiru's stance on things.

[@rctemp34]

It's my understanding that malfurion was as close to demigod as cenarius, so unless Sylvanas is a near god-like status you should have been impossibility... Just bad storytelling.... besides all the good storytellers of all left blizzard anyways and what's left over isn't anything but butchers to the lore of the game

[@moscanaveia]

So, lemme get this straight. Malfurion is a mortal yet you liken him to the son of Elune and Malorne, a demigod of nature. That is good writing, somehow, that a mortal is the same as a demigod simply because he lived long enough. Now we have Sylvanas, a supernatural undead creature cutting deals with the true master of death, and she can't beat granny malfy? This isn't a callout to better writing from Blizzard, this is just Malfurion fanboyism. Even Cenarius was felled by a Saurfang-like character, Grom, with some added strength from Mannoroth's blood. Malfurion would go down even easier, yet you fanboys don't complain when he is made godlike.

[@davidedwardanderson9456]

@@moscanaveia Finally someone with brain. I am a night elf fan boy, but i understand and accept the fact that sylvanas, empowered by the jailer, can match malfurion. I think she wont win at that time, but match yes and it was. People must stop call things they dont understand "BAD WRITING".Just read books, read quest, and read through the line of the story.

[@moscanaveia]

@@davidedwardanderson9456 Evidence of bad writing is quite the opposite: Malfurion was made untouchable by anyone save Sylvanas. Bad writing was putting Saurfang in a situation where he didn't follow through on his own plan to kill Malfurion, because Sylvanas must burn the tree.

[@davidedwardanderson9456]

​@@moscanaveia we can call that bad writing yes, even though i think that sylvanas wuold burn down the tree anyway. The bad writing, in my opinion, is that they give a different reason to Sylvanas for burning Teldrassil. If the plan was to kill more people possible for the jailer, like we know now, she needed that purge. Saurfang was in character when he didnt kill malfurion, but i wuold have prefere that Tyrande came for save him from the possible execution, more then take him away.

[@moscanaveia]

@@davidedwardanderson9456 Yes, she would burn the tree anyways because her motivation was the sparking of all-out war to feed the Jailer. But they had Saurfang do what he did to set the enmity between him and Sylvanas, and to give Sylvanas plausible deniability. The axe-to-the-back followed by the refusal of following through on the execution was awkward, it felt shoehorned because the writers backed themselves against a corner: if Sylvanas proved right off the bat she was just a spiteful bitch who wanted to commit genocide, why should the Horde follow her? It was bad writing because Saurfang was put in the wrong in this case (in that he was blamed for Teldrassil because Sylvanas had deniability) yet we were supposed to think he represented the best of the Horde somehow. Plus, none of that made biting the Sylvanas bullet any more enjoyable by Horde players.

[@steffenersteffen8085]

Your voice is very soothing, i'd love to hear a E-book about this stuff. 15mins is to short :D great video man.

[@matixzz959]

I know what her plan is, first of all she tried to farm levels(she've leveled up until 123), then she wsnted to get revenged against her huby Arthas, but she've forgotten that Arthas was death, so now she've opened a portal to the deaths realm so she can finally find her huby, thats her plan.

[@zepuppet._.master]

A theory, I think, is that when Saurfang says "Or perhaps just one." during the Reckoning cinematic, he's not referring to Sylvannas. He's referring to himself cause he knew he was out matched, his aim was to hopefully turn the Sylvannas loyalists against her, hence why he gave a slight smirk when Sylvannas had shouted the Horde was nothing, because he had won.

[@pogolas]

I think everyone understood that he was referring to himself. A sacrifice, to reveal Sylvanas' own plans.

[@ValensBellator]

As someone who has read the books and ancillary lore I really don’t think any of it is that out of character for her. It has been quite clear that she’s only concerned about her own well being for years, and ever since she experienced her second death in Northrend there isn’t a thing she wouldn’t sacrifice to avoid dying permanently. In the books and short stories we see that she does have people and things she cares for to some degree, but ultimately they have to fit her needs and expectations. She still has some feelings for her sisters, but she plans to kill them and raise them against their will. She claims to love the forsaken but brutally weeds out anyone who might dissent (even respectfully) and either kills them or gets them killed. She has also seen through the years that she and her undead will never truly be fully accepted within the horde quite like the other races, and she knows if they had it their way the undead would dwindle into extinction as they decay and aren’t permitted to raise more to bolster their numbers. You can certainly find contradictions in her inner monologues between the novels and the games, but ultimately her character and motives are pretty well represented. Anyone who thought it was particularly out of character to burn Teldrassil as it was “too cruel” or something are kidding themselves. It is only the impulsiveness that seems out of character, and it seems obvious what might be causing that. Ultimately, they’ve been hinting through this campaign that she has gotten in touch with some new, corrupting power that has enhanced her abilities to the point of being nearly unstoppable, and so at this point she really doesn’t need anyone else and probably remained in power just to cause as much death as possible while there. I’m sure we’ll learn what the source of that weird power is in the future and it will likely also explain her impulsive behavior. I don’t really get why people feel they need to understand everything when clearly the whole point was to have people asking how this was possible (just look at that post-exit dialogue with Lothremar discussing the mysterious power). This whole descent has been intentionally confusing as we don’t have all of the information yet. I’m rather excited to learn where she got that power and what her plans are. As for the fight itself, one must consider that Illidan was able to hold his own for a stretch with Arthas and his frostmourne years ago. To me, it is not much of a stretch for Sylvannas to be able to take on a substantially weaker Lich King, especially with some additional powers. I think a lot of this is just rooted in disappointment that the seemingly obvious narrative (Sylvannas goes rogue) is the one they went with, and I know a lot of undead players loved her (she was one of my favorite characters as well). If you think it’s totally out of character, though, you haven’t been paying attention since the end of WotLK. She’ll let nothing stand between her and immortality, and as a person who has died multiple times now her regard for the importance of “life” (that mostly shows her disdain) is essentially nil.

[@funnyvalentine6670]

Like I enjoy Selfish Villains, If done right they can be quite interesting, but Sylvanas is the most boring of boring. She's currently just strong to be strong and when she gets roasted by the other characters. She bawls and runs away like a freaking brat who couldn't get a $200 Barbie Car.

[@alisardar4604]

Man i love malfurion in the books. He is like the strongest character ever! And dont forget he almost killed sylvanas in bfa prepatch if saurfang didnt save her

[@329376676]

Surprised to see someone dischanting a helm in a cinematic

[@Mitstel]

Great video. I’m a big lore nerd as well, and many of your main talking points are the same ones I mention to others in similar conversations about Sylvanas fighting Bolvar. You’ve presented all of the information very well too, which made it a real delight to watch. I’d love to see more of your lore videos - especially a prediction video on Sylvanas (if you have one already and I haven’t found it, please accept my apologies for that, I haven’t parses your entire collection of videos l yet). I’ve been very interested in theorizing about what Sylvanas’ ultimate plan is. Some theories seem to involve defeating the jailer so that the souls trapped are finally able to go where they’re supposed to - perhaps gaining a way to replenish the forsaken along the way. Other theories include Sylvanas literally taking on hell so that if she dies, she doesn’t have to go there in a kind of act of self preservation. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks again for sharing your insights and your talents.

[@MyViolador]

Sylvanas gaining power for every death? Like the Lich King? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[@Tigo625]

*CREATIVE WRITING*

[@ChinnuWoW]

They have similar powers and work the same. Even Garrosh pointed that out.

[@Tigo625]

@@ChinnuWoW Garrosh pointed the similarity about their morals, not powers, before he was also fucked over by bad writing.

[@mfmage]

She gains power directly from the deaths, the lich king gains power indirectly through a larger army. Not the same.

[@martinhidalgoortega7846]

@@mfmage u are damn right, the lich kings power is his army, sylvanas power comes from the maw

[@TheRealGigachad1848]

It's possible that they had a really early idea of what they wanted to do with her after, but were thinking about the details since then and only now they're finishing it.

[@misanthropiclusion]

considering metzen way back when said they work expa's stories way before release (as in 3 expas before current one) not only is BFA still Metzen's work but also they had these ideas since around WoD

[@BarokaiRein]

Considering how it's blizzard that's almost certainly the case. Their writing team is infamously bad at writing. They don't even try to write anything coherent anymore because everyone just accepts the fact that they will retcon decades of lore to fit whatever they wrote last week since they can't be bothered to write anything that actually fits what was already written. Hell almost all of the biggest novels have been made completely obsolete by now.

[@DragynGirl]

I'm sure they did. The issue is many people just look at one xpac and make assumptions from that, and don't take into account the whole Warcraft lore. Everything needs to be taken in and absorbed, from every expac, to the books, to the comics, to the short stories. I hate to say it, but in order to get a real appreciation of the lore, one must almost look at each aspect of it as a research project. I, personally, find it fascinating, and could get lost in WoW lore as much one could get lost in rl history.

[@Shiirow]

most of Blizzards storytelling recently can be summed up as "they retconned stuff", because the current writers are creatively bankrupt.

[@moscanaveia]

They create new stuff around old characters. Comparing the volume of storytelling surrounding wow, ot's impossible to go on for near of thirty years (as Warcraft began in the early nineties), without a hefty amount of retconning. And wow was founded on a lot of retconning, WC 2 retconned WC 1, 3 retconned 2, wow retconned WC3 and so on and so forth. Yet only now is it "bad"?

[@thethirdsicily4802]

I still think it would've been hilarious for bolvar to even get a cheap shot on sylvanas and send her flying with that massive hammer, even if the outcome was the same.

[@M3ntor93]

Just subscribed. Great job with lore videos.