Saurfang Is Not Honorable

[@nadeshikotwentyfive2740]

hirumaredx, April: Saurfang is not honorable. Saurfang, September, hours before his death: *I agree*

[@aliimrankazan3294]

Dude i'm starting to feel Bliz team actually watch these videos

[@Cheeziswin]

"Sylvanas cares about the horde." BfA 8.2.5 patch: I'm about to end this mans whole career.

[@LilianOrchard]

"Blizzard's latest last-ditch effort to make Saurfang the good guy notwithstanding" is always implied

[@mfmage]

I keep seeing stuff like this said, and I still cannot understand why so few people understand that scene. Have you literally NEVER yelled at someone when they were being ungrateful? Have you literally never said something you regret, hell, something you dont even mean, when someone literally blames you for the things you do to help them? Sylvanas was talking to a traitor, and there were Horde traitors backing him. Of course she would be angry and say something that she doesnt truly mean, but she was furious at how many traitors were following Saurfang.

[@jakedge3]

i think she got fed up with working for a collective of idiots who keep consistently thwarting her efforts to help them.

[@mfmage]

@@jakedge3 exactly

[@bismuth7398]

Lily! What a pleasent surprise! Considering your disdain for fandom discourse, I never expected to see you here! Greetings from one of your fans! 😁

[@eyoshinthemaximum]

“Strong monsters in the forest” *proceeds to show a murloc recking a dread lord*

[@NewNebula12]

T'was a fucking big murloc.

[@alsinbad3772]

don't forget the big troll boi! :p

[@Stronkboi]

> Try to compare Saurfang to Garrosh > Don't realize that Garrosh did nothing Wrong

[@MrBthomp]

Well, he did compare* saurfang to sylvanas. Just because you compare* two things doesn't mean they are the same.

[@tek512]

@@MrBthomp .... Compare.

[@MrBthomp]

@@tek512 thanks

[@joaomarcosgsp7515]

@Deathcoldan comparing means taking two or more things and laying out their semelhances and differences

[@nevermindme3714]

@Deathcoldan estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. "individual schools compared their facilities with those of others in the area"

[@joshuadonnelly1978]

"So, let's go over Sylvanas' and Saurfang's ideology when it comes to the Horde. For one, they both care about the Horde..." Fuck me, this aged like turned wine.

[@Vidar93]

To be fair they just started pulling shit out of their asses and basically retconned even more things.

[@principetnomusic]

Dude, as much as you like Sylvanas, she will never compare to the orc who did nothing wrong, Garrosh the Great.

[@McGliga]

This but unironically. The only thing garrosh did wrong was not burn teldrassil 8 years before sylvanas

[@KingMonkeyMon]

Sylvanas does have some good parodies and good SFM videos

[@jarofpickles4057]

"Burned down Teldrassil when Garrosh couldn't even get past Ashenvale." Are we just going to ignore the fact that he completely destroyed Theramore?

[@MyViolador]

garrosh the kind

[@viktorijasun3082]

But he bombed theramore??

[@CookiesfromHell]

In this video, hirumaredx tells us that blizzard characters are complex with a panopticon of emotions and complexity. Too bad the writers at blizzard don't know that.

[@maden4039]

Honestly it does look like a -mistake- that they didn't planned.

[@KPX01]

@@maden4039 I think they just taking the safest option and kind of out of villain

[@Ghostly_One1]

Better than from software games though, where the storys left entirely to the players to put together.

[@maden4039]

@@Ghostly_One1 are you implying that dark souls has bad storty? Becouse if yes I will have to disagree.

[@Hekk.]

@@Ghostly_One1 a rusted coin from Dark Souls has more lore to it than entire BfA brings. You just have to pay attention. Souls are kinda like archeology.

[@Sinewmire]

“Rules are for children. This is war, and in war the only crime is to lose.” - Bayaz, The Last Argument of Kings

[@Stormwovles]

I see you are a gentleman or lady of culture as well.

[@dckillnit2785]

War never changes

[@afc9447]

What is bayaz?

[@michaelkeha]

Yet one of the most evil and vile empires that has ever darkened this world was driven out of the homelands of a people they had enslaved, oppressed and tried to eradicate for over 400 years by a people that fought with honor beyond measure that conducted themselves in the ancient rules of war long since discarded by fools and tyrants.

[@bismuth7398]

@@michaelkeha Dafuq are you talking about?

[@Marlfox70]

I feel like Blizzard needs to practice keeping their narratives consistent. In game it seems like Sylvanas is just killing for the sake of it, but in the short story it shows she had a lot better motives and that Saurfang was the one who effed up and that Sylvanas even took the blame for his mistake.

[@Chzrm3]

Yeah, I feel like the people who write the short stories and the ones who write for the main game are different, and honestly the short stories are always way better. The game's version of the characters are so reductive and stupid because they have to make the player feel important, whereas in the stories they never have to bother so they can let the characters be themselves. I unsubbed to WoW after that terrible BFA pre-patch where Tyrande didn't kill Saurfang even though he had just crippled Malfurion and instead was like "I'll let you leave because [you're important to the player and they would be sad if you died]."

[@chosena91]

the horde won the war by not burning the tree. the alliance can never attack, never retaliate BECAUSE if they do it means the certain death of all on teldrassil. Malfurion being alive or dead changes nothing regarding this fact. instead sylvanas killed them all for the fucks of it on a dare and now shes fighting a losing war against a stronger opponent something she knew would happen if open war ever broke out which is the whole reason for the war of the thorns to begin with. ppl who blame saurfang read blizzards stupid 3 liners that are supposed to tell us what happens without looking at the bigger picture of what the actual situation around us tells us fact is, sylvanas doomed the horde when she burned the tree

[@stormstrider1990]

Another perfect example of inconsistent narrative is Vereesa Windrunner. In- game, she is bitter, vengeful and hates the Horde, especially the Blood Elves whom she sees as traitors. But in the novel War Crimes, she considered moving in with Sylvanas, and in the comic Three Sisters, she is way more diplomatic, believes the Blood Elves will one day rejoin the Alliance, and feels sorry for ditching Sylvanas earlier, which causes Sylvanas to call off the ambush. Either Vereesa is bipolar, or Blizzard doesn't know what to do with her. She's as inconsistent as her race, the High Elves. Blizzard keeps adding High Elf npcs that fight for the Alliance, like the Arathi portal master. But when fans ask for playable High Elves, Ion says: "Blood Elves are High Elves, the Horde is waiting for you".

[@superblackcat13]

Marlfox70 blizzard has a horrible problem of show don’t tell. Telling me she has a plan doesn’t mean anything if you never actually show her attempting to plan for things and everything comes off as spontaneous.

[@superblackcat13]

chosena91 you can’t place all the blame on Sylvanas it’s stupid if the rest of the horde had a problem then disagree with her and say no, don’t follow until it’s past the tipping point and say I was just following orders. Saurfang is just as much to blame as the short story says he came up with the plan for WoT, for him to mess up his own plan by not killing malfurion is idiotic tbh. The death of all those civilians is as much on his hands as Sylvanas, not to mention he talks about honor yet hired assassins to attack astranar (I butchered that spelling I’m pretty sure) horde side he sends you and an assassin , alliance side it’s an army of Assassins. Either way he still used assassins to kill a town

[@ordelian7795]

Forgot Sylvanas successfully taking over Andorhal as well, but dont worry. Blizzard forgot as well that Andorhal was made into a fortified stronghold for the forsaken from which they could've supplied troops to defend the Capital City.

[@sgtsaldl]

they never remember anything just goes along with a simple story that don't makes sense in the end.

[@Player-rv8ph]

Hey, didn't Alliance retake Andorhal after Battle for Lordaeron?

[@bigbobwalker5527]

probably

[@baronvonwolfin4215]

@Johto i mean a war is really just a collection of skirmishes between nations (or factions) is it not?

[@baronvonwolfin4215]

@Johto im not a lore buff however from memory these are the fights that have happened in lore and in game (also excuse my spelling). Burning of teldrassle (meaning the pre launch events like rouges killing those gaurds as well as the actual tree burning), battle of lordren, battle for arathi, battle for darkshore, as well as all of the war champagne/battle for dazaralor. And we are only in 8.1.5 atm so more may come. However i do see your point where it feels like not much has happened in the way of war/skirmishes but there has been more than just darkshore.

[@ColCoal]

Anyone notice that Sylvanis became a lot more evil once she was forced to cover her midriff?

[@joarm8152]

bruh, that's so true LOL

[@frostycane5134]

ColCoal I’m glad someone else noticed

[@youraverageshitposter9083]

Nudity will save the Horde.

[@mattbrown5511]

That is Lady Sexy-vanas to you young man. :)

[@Rawc90]

That’s where all her evil was seeping out. Cover it up, now it’s all building up.

[@Piromysl359]

What he did at Shattarath still haunts him. He never accepted blood curse as an excuse.

[@roehanostornsyn3367]

I agree, he says this in Northrend, trying to explain it to Garrosh, who was a brazen young war leader at the time.

[@BHDay60]

He killed innocent draenei even before drinking the fel kool aid

[@Zedigan]

One way of looking at it imo is that Saurfang wants to be honourable but he doesn't really know what that means anymore. He's been through a lot, he's seen the horde change, he's seen some shit. Orcs aren't philosophers so dealing with existential questions like "what is honour" would probably be hard. That, or Blizzard writing has just gotten really sloppy. It would have been cool if Blizzard had initially clearly written out what honour meant to the different clans and maybe even races as it's clear the alliance, particularly the humans and the draenei have a strong sense of honour. I read a book called SagaLand, which talked about the old Icelandic sagas and it talked about the old Scandinavian sense of honour. To them honour was a currency that you could lose and gain, easier to lose but harder to gain. ie, if someone was drowning in a river, you wouldn't gain honour from helping them, but you could lose honour for not helping them. I feel like this sense of honour would have worked well for the orcs and the horde in general. And obviously the alliance could have a more christian/chivalrous view of honour; these are the rules and your honour is measured by how well you follow them.

[@JohnYoo39]

I think you might be right. I think he wasn't just yelling at zappy boi's insolence. He might have been venting his frustration when he said "You know me? What I've seen? What I've done?" The world has become confusing for an old soldier like him who used to have a very simple system. It must be a lot to process.

[@avgvstvs7]

@@JohnYoo39 writing a story filled with 20+years of background material is a process for these new shitty ass lore team

[@tommikivimaki3066]

I would like to point out few things. Saurfang felt that his blow at Malfurion was dishonorable bacause orcs believe in honorable duels. A duel is a battle between two fighters. You simply do not interrupt a duel to the death. Saurfang and Sylvanas also have one more ideology difference. Saurfang ordered the rogues to sneak attack on the night elf towns but they were ONLY allowed to kill soldiers. Saurfang draw the line on harming innocent civilians as seen when he ordered to let the civilians escape the siege of Lor'danel. Sylvanas on the other hand believes in the real world concept of "Total War" which mean even enemy civilians must die. Burning a world tree full of innocent people and using chemical weapons (the plague) are a testament to her ideals because you literally cannot control who the Plague spreads on. And as my final point. Honor differs between individuals. The sence of honor comes from one's morals. The same as sence of justice. The sad truth of the world is that there is no "real" or "correct" honor. It is like my favorite manga/anime character said about justice: "Justice will triumph? Well ofcourse it will. Because winners define the meaning of justice!" The winning party in a court case always say that "Justice won today!" when the losing party claims that "A great injustice has occurred." You could easily use that same line thinking when talking about honor. One could think that it was honorable to kill someone for the greater good even though it was a dishonorable blow.

[@Highhookmvp]

Tommi Kivimäki A+

[@mattdayne2585]

Tommi Kivimäki I was gonna say I remember Saurfang specifically said to only go after the soldiers and not civilians, a major point he neglected. Overall he made some good points but others fell flat, also some of his views came off as a bit overly horde biased.

[@vtheman1850]

Fine point, I would just disagree with "Correct justice/honor". It's immoral pseudo intellectualism. There most certainly is a definable , objective standard for Justice and Honor/Valor... Examine history as an example. Take the chivalric virtues, and compare them to something like Bushido. Two civilizations that had never intersected at the time, were able to reach many intersecting points when pondering what justice, duty and honor are. We see it with Greek philosophers... A study of morals and ethics would imply that there does indeed exist an objective moral standard, that a lot of civilizations seem to reach completely independently... Agree with most of what you wrote otherwise.

[@simon9902]

​@@vtheman1850 i agree with your point about correct justice/honor: the problem is that if the goal is clear: the path is far to be > for thoses civilisation to come to thoses senses: Winners have passed, and other have been defeated. Also for the goal of justice/honor: kill is immoral, but the paths are far to be clear or one-sided. Justice and honor have been designed by subjective creature for subjective creature: even if we can easely agree in objective good (or the closest thing to approach it) for those subjective creature (like being healthy): thoses concepts are born from conflict and immorality (like a regulation mechanism: the question is: Who regulate ?) and cannot prevent dramatic/disaster side effects (for example mass killing in the name of greater good, or other stupid shit...).

[@yusukeelric]

@Frankfurt School Shooter I think he sparing the life of his strongest enemies is the proof of internal conflict he has. Saurfang is not too far from becoming like Garrosh. For him honor is death in the heat of battle. He can only die against a worthy enemy. In my head, he will spare anyone as honorable as him as many times as he can with hopes that enemy becomes strong enough to finally kill him. Saurfang life is war. and there is only one way he wants to die. and it is by the steel of a worthy enemy. No worthy enemy, no worthwhile death. In other words saurfang is warrior, but not a soldier. he is more interested in having the battle of his life, not in a specific cause. There is not a definitive concept of war. Sylvana wants to end it winning. No matter the cost. Saurfang wants to fight strong enemies. FOREVER.

[@2toothsome]

I think this is just the result of poor writing. Nonetheless, it does make orc culture more interesting even if it wasn't intended.

[@Olibelus]

Zakov Agreed, the writing just isn’t coherent. His character is flip-flopping in terms of what is honourable and what isn’t based on what the writers feel adds to the story.

[@2toothsome]

@Mr. [Bones] when did i ever say bolvar and sylvanas were bad writing

[@krel3358]

I disagree i think its an example of great writing. Its esentially the arguement between a brainwashed idealist who has no idea how the world works vs a pragmatist who has experience. I would even argue Sylvanas has more honour than Saurfang because she wants the Horde to survive. She rightfully chides him like a child as she knows that death is not glorious amd dying for the sake of a subjective ideal to make yourself feel better about winning a fight is stupid. In the end sylvanas is doing awful things to ensure the horde doesnt die and minimizes horde casualties. Saurfang and anyone who supports him in this is shitting on the Horde for the sake of a childish idealogy. War is war. War is hell. Fuck the Alliance they made their choices and proved to be a bunch of backstabbing two faced shit heads. Sylvanas did nothing wrong.

[@alwaysangry2232]

@Mr. [Bones] what about you go eat shit

[@BushSage]

@@krel3358 haha but now she did

[@horrorkesh]

every time Jaina shows up she is the magic save all McGuffin.

[@CaptmagiKono]

Better buy that $300 figure, guys!

[@garpogods8323]

Honestly, kinda pissed she got away after the raid.

[@IcestormTundra]

She's a get out of jail free card. Unless you a Blood Elf.

[@grit1]

This would be valid if Sylvanas wasn't exactly the same, 'ha ha I outsmarted you all I'm the best' foil to the shit stew that is both of them

[@NetherCrafterSMC]

Accept with Daelin, Arthas and Varian

[@peterbundy84]

Saurfang: "I will die on the battlefield with honor." Sylvanas: "Yeah... I'm gonna raise you up after your death, probably also mind-controlling you a lil' bit as well, just FYI". Saurfang: "..."

[@Spyro2292]

She'd be crucified by the orcs if she did. Trolls would probably help nail her to it.

[@MegaChickenfish]

I didn't see the orcs or trolls doing anything when she tried doing that to Derek Proudmoore.

[@brettb1327]

Jaiton she did raise orcs as mindless undead to fight for her, why does no one remember that from the battle of lorderan

[@characterantula4868]

@@brettb1327 That was awesome when she did that

[@Hekk.]

Why would you get rid of a weapon, when you can improve upon it instead?

[@vlodislaw7972]

Saurfang is one of the most hypocritical character. Best honor quote I know is from Mass Effect 3 Javik: 'Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.'

[@OhNoTheFace]

April Fools joke right over your head

[@Kanamon22]

Who cares if this a April fools joke. For me Saurfang is a traitor :P

[@vlodislaw7972]

@@OhNoTheFace I don't really care if the video was made for 1st of April, the fact that Saurfang this expansion had questionable actions is clear and the way he acts is to satisfy his own ideology and sense of honour. I agree with this video 100% .

[@tepetkis]

@@vlodislaw7972 Not just know, even in Wrath Saurfang is shady- like lying to his commander.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@tepetkis Saurfang is a flawed character, that is what makes him interesting. His flip-flopping "Honor" is just rationalizing something until it makes sense to him. I can get 100% behind THAT kind of honor more than the "Oh killing is MVP in mid-war could be so honorless" He should be more straight up and be like "Look QueenBitch, i want a proper challenge, you can't give it to me. He may be the last fucker alive that can give me a 1v1 where I can have a chance of fucking dying" Yes I let him go, cuz I wanna duel him. But ofc if Blizz went that way all fanbois be could be like "Oh he is SO SELFISH"

[@BigStupidJellyfish3]

17:55 She did have a choice, nothing was stopping her from killing Malfurion herself (besides bad writing, I guess).

[@SilverWolf09100]

My best guess is that it was meant as a test of Saurfang's loyalty? Or blizz just couldn't let Malfurion die cuz reasons.

[@lambocalypse]

If you can't trust your generals to get shit done then what's their point? She should have made Nathanos do it.

[@Yutani_Crayven]

Here's the thing though. *She gave Saurfang the kill because that is in line with Orcish honor.* Saurfang struck the crippling blow so the kill belonged to him. Which makes Saurfang's honour even more empty.

[@linkzellda]

@Johto Nah! Sylvanas is not a brilliant tactician, she is just a coward bitch.

[@velenvskaelhas]

His honour is him being true to his inner nature, that’s all honour ever is, doing what you believe to be right, not what would be best. Baine explains this sentiment with his “no life is worth living if you can not be true to your nature” line. Sylvanas just wants to win no matter what, but the characters with “honour” know that such a victory would be meaningless and end up only bringing them pain. What’s the point in winning if you can’t then live with yourself.

[@EJsGameplay]

Reading that last part of the excerpt you had up on the screen at the end made me picture Saurfang standing in the middle of the woods with a Duel Disk on his arm challenging Malfurion to Duel.

[@Jack_Rakan]

That was a fucking amazing mental image. Thank you.

[@zippo718]

I think you meant he was challenging Malfurion to D-d-d-duel!

[@Spike-xv1ts]

i got the feeling people totally ignore that sylvanas does the same things she ALWAYS did just more out in the open ....Silverpine Forest Questline anyone??

[@DerpyLaron]

Shhh nooo, look at her boobs and don't talk about that. What ordering an even stronger version of the plague and even continuing making it after warthgate obviously was the only choice if self defense. Raising people into undeath and having no rumors even raising her own allies. Totally not the lich king. Not like he ever intended to not die like her or take over the world with an army of undeath. No and if he he did listen to this argument. Dat Ass. See totally different. Not to mention she clearly never was evil, I mean what did she do. Threaten her allies, trust no one, rain with fear and try to use of the power the very lifeblood of world? Pfff that's totally legit AF man! Totally not evil or questionable!! Sauerfang on the other hand totally a wimp. Personal strength. Pshhh lame. Value family and the thing you helped to huild pah. Wishy washy bullshit. What nonsense. Next thing you will want to claim that the hord isn't just a tool. Haha fat chance. What nonsense. /s

[@superblackcat13]

Spike the difference is she went from smart evil and the alliance saw her as their Villain, to her being stupid evil with a lot of her actions ever since bts (before the storm) and also blizzard is hardcore painting her as a villain to even the horde it’s really annoying.

[@Spike-xv1ts]

@@superblackcat13 i prefer calling it "plot evil" xD

[@characterantula4868]

@@superblackcat13 I play mainly forsaken toons and I think shes a pretty awesome warchief. If you didn't have fun melting allys with a badass blight flamethrower then you a total square. Also loved the quests going around graverobbing and resurrecting people in the war campaign. That kind of stuff is fun. So let me ask you would you rather do quests where you melt your opponents with chemical weapons then raiser their corpses to fight along side you or would you rather do a quest picking up nuts for some squirrels.

[@superblackcat13]

Harley Warren here is the thing my bro we are forsaken fans, if this was just forsaken only it be fine but it’s not, it’s the war campaign for the horde every race has a niche that they do that caused us to fall in love with it. So where I would be okay and say business as usual any other race in the horde will be like wtf why is our warchief being painted a villain in our eyes. The question here is would you rather a war campaign where all horde races can benefit or Atleast enjoy it just fighting the alliance in a good ol fashion war or a campaign where only one race is clearly going to enjoy it most likely like if it was a orc campaign where all they did was use the buzzword constantly while flip flopping on what’s honorable every time. I’m sure as a forsaken main you’d be annoyed by this as you probably don’t care for honor when you’re trying to win

[@KorporateKotoo]

I'm really worried that eventually the story in BFA will lead Horde players to become patsy's to Sylvanas so Blizzard can just force everyone to fight Sylvanas in the end of the expansion.

[@Rpground]

Considering the choices, they're probably taking a tally of all player choices and will choose the victor from that.

[@KorporateKotoo]

@@Rpground That would be cool but I doubt that they would let the players take that much control of the story, plus I would be surprised if they didn't already have the entire BFA plot written already.

[@Rpground]

@@KorporateKotoo Well...if what I said was true, they would probably have both sides written up and once the victor was decided, throw the other out the window. Even if it's not true, still a cool thought.

[@kingbeast777]

I have that feeling As well or fight suarfang maybe

[@MikasaaOW]

I think we will end up raiding a corrupted SW with sylvanas being the middle of it all. I think she will worth with nzoth to conquer all and we will have to kill her for good in sw or something like that. OR she will be the hero like illidan

[@gemyniraptor8626]

"Sylvannas was justified because Greymane attacked her forces in Legion" - Bruh, She invaded his kingdom, that was isolated and neutral, killed his son, and used Blight on his people AGAINST Garrosh's wishes, and destroyed his home. He had every justification to attack her forces. And he stopped her from controlling Aeyr, which would've been bad for all of us. The Forsaken still occupy Gilneas, which leaves them in a state of war, even if the Alliance itself isn't and Greymane straight up told EVERYONE that, and repeated it when Darnasus, the Worgen's second home, was invaded. She is a warmonger, and any action by the Alliance at that point of time does not change the fact she has made constant and long term warfare on Alliance and allied holdings. You try and make her magnanimous in her actions but she clearly isn't, repeatedly has done things only for her own motives and continues to do so. The novels and comics that illuminate her thoughts constantly show how she's always scheming for her benefit. And it's the center of her character, because she has always felt the world as a whole owes her for the hand she was dealt. I'll grant you she's a very competent battlefield leader, but she is not winning for the Hordes sake. We get it, the Alliance slipped on the proverbial banana at times with not keeping to their ideals and promises, usually with humans letting racial BS prevail through. But Don't try and paint Sylvannas as the better leader than Saurfang just because she can win a battle. Or like she has any moral standing whatsoever, because she doesn't. Saurfang is flawed in his stubbornness and ideals. Sylvannas is flawed in that she cares little for anything but herself, and will do whatever it takes to get what she wants.

[@Gunplabro]

Bark this is an april fools shitpost

[@imaran1303]

This was long before the war of the Legion, if we are allowed to go before that, Sylvanas had every right to attack the Alliance, because the Alliance butchered diplomats she had sent to rejoin the Alliance because most of her new adopted people were Lordaeronians. Or how about the fact that Gilneas abandoned Lordaeron to the Scourge? The real warmongers? Genn and the Alliance.

[@dinosdaniel3508]

To Quote Saurfang from the books "i don't care how many horde soldiers die as long as honor is sated". Sylvanas even after shadowlands cared more for the Horde than Saurfang

[@griddamus]

Saurfang. What I see is a traditional Orc blood and glory mantra, quarrelling with itself with the teachings of Thrall. Saurfang knows what HE thinks is honourable, but feels like he should be extending it to other people and other things as Thrall did.

[@magnusthered3601]

I thought like this too but couldnt find the proper words, nice

[@basillah7650]

Saurfang is a member of the alliance they might as well make an Orc alliance faction for him to be the leader of.

[@danielw.8356]

That is interesting so he is conflict with traditional orc teachings vs Thralls adaptation of such teachings that was taught to the orcs during the Third War and after.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@basillah7650 All those peace-loving orcs, can go suck a dick. Either do WARcraft or go RPG in Goldshire

[@brutoshhellscream9104]

@@hisokamorow6709 They can make war with other things of the world, just like Warcraft 3, like Legion, Old gods, etc. The horde today is full of haters/teenagers. I always loved pvp and killing alliance as a full player of the horde (orc only), but since Sylvanas took power, it's seems war become childish.

[@fuzzwobble]

*Tauren would never have tolerated burning a World Tree.* A World Tree is a blessing of the Earthmother, their divine being, their All That Is, and it's practically confirmed that Elune is the Earthmother. She is the only 'true' deity in that lore that exists. Their entire culture, their entire society is not just based around respecting her, but also around respecting nature as a whole. The fact they tolerated Sylvanas' attack ruins the game's lore by spitting in the Tauren's faces. Saurfang was an ally to the Tauren people. Burning a World Tree means Tauren go neutral or join the Alliance. This game is dildos now. Forget about it.

[@cowboytv7903]

I have no fucking idea how they have let the story for horde players run completely amok at this point. They decomissioned thrall, killed garrosh, killed vol’jin, and now have written themselves into a corner with the only OG major figurehead of the horde left in line to warchief being a genocidal maniac hated by everybody except the undead. I will never play horde on retail after the completely indefensible acts comitted by people like Sylavannas, and her genocidal “forsaken.” Unbelivable how they turned a ragtag alliance of races fighting to survive in a foreign world into an absolutely morally repugnant death squad hellbent on destroying the Alliance at any cost, even burning down fucking tedrassil. Just unbelievable.

[@danortiz]

Well, Teldrasil was not blessed, remember that, Fandral Staghelm with other archdruids being opposed to the idea made this world tree, even without the bless of the nature.

[@VyreXP]

Teldrassil is an artificial world tree, forced upon by the land by Night Elves desperate to regain their immortality they no longer needed. Your characterisation of the Tauren isn't even correct, but they wouldn't give a shit about a tree less than 50 years old that was grown unnaturally.

[@DrJDX]

Gonna be honest, I feel like his honor is actually very straightforward, and you 100% missed the forest for the trees. Killing the sentinels in Ashenvale is fine/honorable, because they are soldiers. It's always ok to kill a soldier except when they're engaged in single combat (especially two leaders); you do not interfere in single combat. The blow he struck on Malfurion was dishonorable, because he attacked, from behind, someone engaged in single combat with someone else. So, to recap: Saurfang's Honor Code (abbreviated): 1) You can kill soldiers whenever, that's what they're there for. 2) You can't interfere with single combat that you're not party to. 3) Finally, of course, the best death, the worthiest death, the honorable death, is on the battlefield.

[@ReptarTheUgly]

On the battlefield you need to always be prepared. Malfurions own damn fault

[@kelmacett2456]

Except hirumaredx didn't mention how Saurfang was also looking forward to raiding and looting Teldrassil. Defenders and civilians would've been killed during the take over of Teldrassil and the survivors, once the raiding and looting stopped, would've been held hostage. The entire of War of Thorns was his and the manipulation of Si7 teams was his idea as well. He was perfectly happy to do all of this because it fits into his concept of honor. But when by sheer bad luck he ran through the forest and launched his axe at unknown enemy and then realised that he had struck Malfurion in the back he threw it all away. In response to your points: -1- Ref: killing soldiers = It seems civilians too when you've won thats what they are there for. -2- Ref single combat = But you are ok to be saved by your Warchief's arrival when you were losing the duel against Malfurion and the inn collapses on you. -3- Ref a worthy death in combat = You couldnt give this to Malfurion, the enemy leader who tried to kill you previously in an ambush using dishonorable means (shapeshifter nightelf posing as an insulting forsaken guardsman) who is presently fighting your warchief (who saved you previously from said duel) and has been leading the Defenders in the War of Thorns that you orchestrated. I disagree with you and I agree with hirumaredx. Saurfang imo realised he fucked it all up when he let Malfurion go. His initial reaction seen in the cinematic is just that his reaction "They will come, all of them", but in "a good war" it expands on the scene and he acknowledges that he made a huge error and that in order to cripple the Kaldorei burning Teldrassil would be the only way. He HATES himself for this which is why he tries to kill himself at Lordaeron twice (pre-battle cinematic & stays behind to face the alliance). The game does a terrible job of explaining this narrative properly throughout. If you look at the game from when Saurfang is captured onwards till present Sylvanas is still shown to be comically evil and yet if they released "A Good War Part 2" it wouldnt surpise me to see that this is simply not the case and we are being fed biased information. Tbh i think its a bit shit the way they are doing this as it damages Blizzard more than anything as people call out to say its bad writing when perhaps its not on account of people not getting the entire narrative given to them in the 1st place. Here is hoping that Saurfang v Sylvanas is the second strategy designed by both of them to misdirect the Alliance into believing there is a civil war in the Horde and Saurfang launches a surgical strike into the heart of the Alliance. Using the same route he used to escape to attack Stormwind from within and claim it FOR THE HORDE!!!! (here endeth the wet dream).

[@DrJDX]

@@kelmacett2456 You make decent points, but I don't understand where you come up with the idea that Saurfang is suddenly going to be ok with killing civilians upon entering the tree, especially when he ordered you to save them in the lead-up war campaign in Lor'Danel (but kill soldiers still). Additionally, even if he is fine with that, his honor system may still make simple sense, since burning to death in a tree is not exactly dying on a battlefield, it's just slaughter. But maybe we're all just confused because there are too many writers with opposing visions here.

[@kelmacett2456]

@@DrJDX in the book A Good War he mentions he looked forward to taking over Teldrassil as he had Stormwind during the 1st war. The survivors of the conquering of Stormwind who managed to escape the siege fled to Lordaeron. I think we can both agree that the conquering of Stormwind in the 1st War was completely brutal as no mention is ever made of prisoners or internment camps for humans because they were all mostly killed. I do believe that Saurfang would not repeat the same level of brutality but he certainly would allow his victorious troops to satiate their blood lust initially. The real problem is fracturing the narrative into different media and writers. All giving us different perspectives, pacing and delivering of parts of the narrative at different times which makes it look bad. The real question is: - Was the entire story set in stone and has been chopped up as i described or... - Is the narrative organically growing as each media/writer gives their interpretation of events. If the former its a shame we cant get it all whole and enjoy it for what it is. If the latter its a bit crap to be honest because many actions simply dont make anysense (Comically evil Sylvanas & Super honor Saurfang at each others throat in game(in game) VS 2 leaders working as a team and seeing each others true worth and their flaws - a thoughtful ruthlesss but overconfident Sylvanas with eyes set on the future of the Horde & a Guilt Ridden Warmongering Saurfang coming to terms with the path his Honor has set the Horde on (in book). We shall just have to wait and see what little bits of info we get from 8.2 :P

[@linkzellda]

*Doc J* Nope you're just making poor excuses to justify the Horde actions, so Saurfang is not an honorable Orc because honor doesn't exist. Honor is just an illusion used by people to justify their bullshit, like Freedom in real life, or how terrorist organizations use their belief to justify their shitting actions. But it doesn't surprise me how weak minded people like you are. Your loyalty can be easily bought by anyone, I mean people like you are so loyal toward Sylvanas and Saurfang without a reason. But the people of the Warcraft community are so gullible, I mean you people easily pick side without a reason, but what else I should expect for a gullible community.

[@flamingmuffin666]

As you were describing saurfang’s ideology, a thought came to mind on why he let malfurian live - he has a lack of enemies that hate him, so he created one to later satisfy his “honour” to die in battle against a hated enemy. Kind of a deep psychological take here if that’s the case, the theme of Eternal Recurrence and Jung’s “if you don’t make the unconscious, conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate”. Saurfang wishes to die in battle, more than anything else, but he can’t directly cause it, so how many of his actions has he secretly hoped would end up killing him?

[@rdsasuke1]

That would be a legit good twist if the writers are going that way.

[@Hangman1]

This is how Blizzard understand theirs game - word's thrown without sense, just because they sounds good in that moment.

[@generichyur338]

A few points. First. You misrepresent why Sylvanas burned the tree. Even with Malfurions escape she was about to invade. It was only after her exchange with Delaryn, in which Delaryn said that Sylvanas could not kill hope that Sylvanas chose to burn the tree to show that she could. You even have the scene from Warbringers that shows this part in your video. Second. The reason Saurfang thinks of his attack on Malfurion as dishonourable is not because it was a surprise attack, but because it was a surprise attack he launched on a duel between two warriors, something we know Orcs prefer not to do. Maybe not a big thing, but still, it's a thing.

[@mrcaterpillow9926]

I think that second part is a very big thing. He addresses that 'honor' moment as just Saurfang being choosy with his ideals. Though Mak'gora was not called, a orc should still respect a warriors duel. Sylvannas vs Malfurian, him interfering by all accounts of any Orc clan would be seen as dishonorable.

[@generichyur338]

@Cegesh Go watch Warbringers. Listen to her. After Malfurion escapes but before Delaryn "Secure the beach, prepare to invade the tree" after Delaryn? "Burn it!" It was literally only after her conversation with Delaryn she decides to burn Teldrassil. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iofTaKyCm9OgqKc In fact here's the link with proof that's the timeline of the events.

[@generichyur338]

@@Testingthisname Fine. Armed combat between two warriors. That better for you, kid?

[@generichyur338]

Okay. I was going to originally go into a lengthy explanation of leaders of their respective clans(factions) fighting in combat being something akin to an impromptu mak'gora. However I've decided to take this a different way. You and someone of the opposing faction are fighting, you've been doing so for hours and having fun with it, you getting some kills, them getting some kills. Then a random enemy faction rogue comes along and kills you midway in a fight with that person. Do you go "Oh that Rogue was a great pvper!" or do you go "That Rogue was a fudging duck!"? (You can replace fudging duck with the appropriate words there) in this situation Saurfang was that Rogue without meaning to be. And he felt about himself how you would about that Rogue.

[@generichyur338]

Were they stood at the heads of their armies at this point or were they off in a secluded spot fighting head to head, one on one, winner decides pretty much all? Stop thinking like a Human for a minute and think like an Orc. Orcs do not get called soldiers but warriors. More so when it comes to the old Orcs, like Varok, an Orc truly from Draenor is, one who is used to seeing leaders fight with and die to other leaders without anyone else around them so much as lifting a finger. Fight over leadership, over who has been killing who. At this point he would not just be thinking "Oh yeah, we're all soldiers, we should just charge in anyway" He would be thinking of himself, or in this case, his warchief and the enemy leader as warriors, combatants locked in a fight to the death over an invasion. It may not have been called as a mak'gora, but it is essentially one to an old school Orcs eyes. And just to top it off he would have no way of knowing that they(Sylvanas and Malfurion) hadn't called for a one on one to settle this once and for all. And his interference may have just stopped that and denied victory to both. As you put it "muh fairness" is not so much what I was thinking of here, I was trying to give you a way to try and understand roughly what it would be like. But as that did not work and you did not seem to grasp the concept that way, I now tell you to think of this more like a roleplayer would than just any other person or player. Peace.

[@OopsIStabYou]

I think it’s a testament to your quality of videos when people still forget that these were April fools videos

[@ALittleBitWeirder]

This is a really interesting video with a great exploration. I however believe regarding the Saurfang’s decision to spare Malfurion was because he was an already engaged with Sylvanas, he struck him from behind. This does conflict with his use of rogues who take their enemy by surprise and could be questioned, but for him personally this was quite literally not facing an enemy. To finish Malfurion off would have been a cowardly move in his eyes because of the injury he received from the attack behind. He wouldn’t have been gaining honour by dying in battle because his enemy wasn’t facing him and thus didn’t have a fair chance. It probably derives from Mak’gora that orcs from all clans support: a fight to the death with one weapon, no magic and facing you enemy. It’s a universally understood rite, but sometimes necessity takes priority (Thrall used magic against Garrosh because he believed that it was necessary for him to kill him by any means to protect the other races from extermination). It’s obvious that all orca twist honour to what benefits them and it would be interesting if Blizzard delved more into what it means.

[@jameschristophercirujano6650]

I resonate with this more. Rogues at least kill them 1 v 1. I think Saurfang's idea of honorable combat is 1 v 1. You could construe it that the rogue targets were unable to sense them is already in of itself losing the battle. Saurfang did find invisible rogues by himself after all. Then there's the battlefield where's everywhere is a moshpit. Sylvanas and Malfurion were dueling, Saurfang had no business to meddle, that's what I think he thought.

[@sufode]

I love you so much!! Now I can just link this vid to my friends whenever we argue about Saurfang's pea brain actions! :D I'm already anticipating next year's video btw...

[@Enseraku]

DeathVerse you realize this is an April fools joke video right?

[@ZeroshiftFIN]

@@Enseraku But it still has good points and logical arguments, doesn't matter that it's a april fools video.

[@sufode]

@@Enseraku Hmmm, yes I do. Why do you think i said i was anticipating next's years vid? His april's fools videos aren't bullshit for the sake of it, he makes good points! :)

[@Enseraku]

DeathVerse Ah well that’s fair

[@barbarianchief81]

Maybe I'm wrong but in that rogue mission you are only meant to kill military targets, not civilians; that's why he was against burning Teldrassil. He was ashamed of mortally wounding Malfurian because it was a warrior striking another combatant from behind. When he stayed behind to face to alliance during the siege of the Undercity it was because he didn't agree with the use of poison to kill the Alliance leaders, this all seems consistent with his code of honor to only kill combantants

[@brandonhall7498]

One thing I think worth mentioning concerning Saurfang is what happened to his son. Losing a child especially in the way he did more than likely did a lot to make him question the fallacy of Orcish honor.

[@wolfpack8005]

She was never gonna burn the tree but when the elf said something about here not being able to win the war against life she said "But Cant I" And then commanded to burn the tree

[@michaelkeha]

thing is she can't win the war against wife for even her burning the tree down shows how little she understands from the ashes a new tree shall grow as is the way of the world from death always comes life.

[@orakuotaku]

@@michaelkeha or you know of malfurion had died.. Would have sent a huge shock through and so she was forced to do something else

[@GnomeAndHalflingEnjoyer]

Within the first 30 seconds. I don't think Saurfang's idea of honor is vapid. I think -Blizzard's- idea of honor is vapid. And considering the revolving door of writers they've had, that sounds about right. The Horde's "Honor" peaked in Wrath, and they've done nearly nothing resembling honor since then besides for that 'accidental' bit where Garrosh kicked an evil guy off a cliff. (Beyond that, Sylvanas' poorly written excuse for winning the fight against the Night Elves is 'literally', their Navy was diverted. You know, that Navy that has never been a thing since ever, and wouldn't even have an effect in the fighting in Ashenvale. AKA, she won because of utterly crap author-fiat. Which is hilarious considering they could've just had her use uninhibited amounts of blight to get it done more believably.)

[@samueljosephazzaro9664]

You make a good point about honor.....except that you never finish your argument and reach the conclusion that honor is always subjective based on the moral code of the individual claiming to have honor and that of those around them.

[@lordofebony816]

The frostwolf definition of honour isn’t very common amongst classic Yojamba realm horde players. I remember once I was really sad that my guild kicked me and a level 60, while carrying me, decided to stop, troll me and waste my time for 3 hours, deny it and leave. I came and told my story to another level 60, and they said “Fuck you, talkin’ SHIT.” And then proceeded to paint me in a bad picture with the people in their group, basically bullying me.

[@andrejoss475]

"they both care for the horde" oof, since when does sylvannas care for the horde, i'm pretty sure she said a bunch of times that all that horde means to her is just pawns for her schemes or at least she makes it seem like that horde doesn't mean jack shit to her and she would destroy it if it meant anything good in return for her

[@MrDantaros]

I remeber that in vanilla in undercity the forsaken had ally and horde prisioner as test subject, and in no part they say that those horde were criminals or someting.

[@Blockheadfun]

andrejoss475 Sylvanas: "You are all NOTHING!" People either don't pay attention, or don't care about how significant that statement, and following events. Actually showed her true feelings, and intentions from her resurrection at Icecrown Citadel.

[@bismuth7398]

Then wtf was her "honor means nothing to a corpse" speech about?

[@perseverance6994]

You are probably an anduin fanboy and usually alliance players side with saurfang because of the honor bs

[@bismuth7398]

@@perseverance6994 Sounds about right. 😁

[@jensjensen4836]

that april fool aged well...

[@Pewafamath]

I like the thought of saurfang panicking to find someone strong enough to kill him and he is running out of time before he is too old. Fully aware of what he is doing and setting himself up to fight the strongest, regardless the faction they are on. and then he becomes a world boss in 8.3 =x

[@vlodislaw7972]

This reminds me of a video: The Saga of Bjorn.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@vlodislaw7972 That reminds me of Rollo, on the last season of Viking, his rant of the Old Berserker.

[@JefferyBlue]

Some of the Video backgrounds in this video were made by "Amitai Angor AApril fools VFX" Nice one but I'm THAT nerd.

[@bluntlyhonest6803]

"Goody two shoes who does no wrong" - cuts to anduin. That boy, makes a lot of mistakes, his biggest is being Naive to a fatal fault.

[@Runenschuppe]

The Alliance and its members have committed several war crimes. But I cannot remember a single one that was not in retaliation to the Horde's. The whole conflict started every f-ing time with the Horde coming under the control of homicidal maniacs and striking out at the Alliance, only to cry out foul when they shake off said control that the Alliance is still retaliating.

[@emmasgamingcorner1422]

Yeah... and the only reason the Horde still exists is that Varian chose peace instead of a very reasonable anger for all that the Horde have done. Yet Sylvanas is somehow brilliant for choosing to start a war with Anduin that endangers the Horde and loses one of their capital cities (for the first time in the Horde's history). Such brilliant strategist, wow, she's so justified, really, awesome character. /sarcasm :P

[@Runenschuppe]

@@emmasgamingcorner1422 There's a pattern in there... The Alliance chose to inter the Orcs after the Second War instead of genociding them as some demanded. The Nightelves allowed the Warsong to retreat, instead of executing them for their Ashenvale attack. Jaina chose to sacrifice her father and his men to keep peace with the Horde. The Alliance chose to cooperate with the Horde before being stabbed in the back at Wrath Gate. Jaina then saved Thrall during the battle for Undercity... Over and over again, a "rogue" Horde leader breaks the peace and decides to attack the Alliance. Then the Alliance attacks to punish that leader and the Horde is pissed that they don't just look the other way. Bloodshed ensues.Then both cooperate to take that leader down and the Alliance decides to leave the Horde intact. Only to rinse and repeat the next year.

[@emmasgamingcorner1422]

@@Runenschuppe Pretty much yeah :D And then Blizz pretend that this is totally not 'Horde aggressor name here 2.0'

[@CptTachyon]

@@Runenschuppe It's sadly the structure of the game. One side can't have a decisive victory since it'd piss off half the playerbase. That aside, Varian would have saved countless Alliance lives if he had just ended the Horde like he should have done at MoP.

[@pikemand1410]

So you think grudges are a valid reason to continue a war but conveniently forget the fact that the very existence of the New Horde and the presence of Orcs on Azeroth are the results of an aggressive invasion that attempted to genocide the Alliance races. I just love how Horde apologists all have goldfish memories that can't recall anything that happened before the end of the Second War. As long as there is a single Orc living in the Eastern Kingdoms no act of war by the Alliance can be considered unprovoked.

[@Blackguy610]

You just proved one the point of his video lol

[@finalboss5966]

Oy wey, aren't orcs were corrupted same as eredar back in the days? Aren't Medivh was the one who let the orcs in? Aren't Azshara begin all this in the first place? Someone has a cherry picking memory of a golden fish.

[@Arkus]

A general rule of thumb I tend to use with Warrior types like the Orcs or Klingons is don't interfere with a duel. Saurfang's plan to use the rogues was a military tactic to gain an advantage in a war, but the fight between Malfurion and Sylvanas was essentially a duel between faction leaders (an unofficial Mok'Gora), something that is considered sacred. When Saurfang attacked Malfurion he basically interfered with the fight so it was considered dishonorable in his mind, kinda like how Garrosh felt after his duel with Cairne and discovered he won because his weapon was poisoned, thus tainting his victory.

[@MrLolguy93]

Now this was a great video. Really made me think about the way the lore is going. Have you considered making a video about Thrall? How his exile might be because of his depression? Of realization that everything he tried failed. I think that he feels responsible for the Legion's invasion, considering he chose Garrosh as his successor. i remember reading Blizzardwatch (before it went to shit), that when Thrall told Garrosh that he chose his own destiny when the former was saying that Thrall made him what he is, is precisely that. that it was his actions that started that domino effect, which even made him lose both the Doomhammer and his connection with the elements. Or Blizzard is just not good at writing XD

[@Panasiux2]

I think he forgot one thing about sylvanas is that, she's willing to sacrifice allies for their goals, which Is bad and can lead to decay in a faction.

[@тоска-р1о]

@@Panasiux2 huhuh, decay in a faction, sylvanas, heh

[@todor9800]

U know that this is april fools right?

[@fraillittlegoblin8664]

Yeah, I mean Garrosh told Thrall that he was no politician, he tryied to refuse the throne when Thrall offered. So most of what Garrosh done in mop was sort of Thralls doing too. Maybe deep inside Thrall still thinks about it.

[@thanquolrattenherz9665]

after killing the dreadlord sylvannas butchered the humans that helped her win in the book arthas she made chemical experiments on her own people and warprisoners. sylvannas has a history of betrayal and opression, her thoughts of wc3 and recent wow are strange if you remember she said the unlife is just suffering while now she spreads it. its to say that in taurajo the alliance opened an escape route for horde civilans to escape the battle.

[@timsummers7526]

In my personal opinion... I believe Saurfang feels he was being Honorable to his War-chief despite not believing in her ideology. So much to the point he questioned his own personal belief of honor. When Sylvannis was, essentially, dueling Malfurion he intervened and struck from behind. Mok'Gora is an honorable duel between two parties, and only two parties. It's possible he felt as though he violated this in some way.

[@r.pizzamonkey7379]

"Nobody likes a goody-two-shoes who never does anything wrong" _shows picture of anduin_ *shots fired*

[@myself2noone]

This said at a time when one of the most popular characters on the planet is Captain fricking America. I'm just saying that's observably not true. Naa the writing is just shit.

[@myself2noone]

@@marcialhd Not even that objection is good. For one Cap's still interesting in the sequels dispite being perfect form the start of those stories. For two Superman is a wildly popular character as well, and really just dose have everything handed to him. Blizzard just can't write paragons for shit. You can probably remove the word "paragon" and that would still be true.

[@LycanWitch]

It's easy to explain the dishonor that Saurfang felt when he interfered with the 1v1 between Malfurion and Sylvanas. Just imagine if two orcs were having a Mak'gora and a 3rd orc stepped in and interfered, there's zero doubt to all orcs, that would be considered a very dishonorable thing that the interfering orc did. In essence, Malfurion and Sylvanas were having a Mak'gora, and Saurfang interfered, it was clearly a battle between two leaders, he dishonored himself and all orcs by doing that, his interference was clearly dishonorable. Furthermore, Saurfang pretty much denied an honor kill of a fellow warrior who he respects, regardless if that warrior, Malfurion is his enemy. He clearly saw that Malfurion had the upperhand in the fight, and before Malfuion could land a honorable killing blow on Sylvanas, Saurfang denied him that honorable kill. So in Saurfang's own eyes that's also a pretty dishonorable thing that he did, even more so than simply interfering. Just imagine if the shoe were on the other foot, and if Saurfang was about to land a honor kill on a noteworthy enemy but was denied the kill by an interfering combatant. He'd know that would be a very dishonorable thing to have happen to him.

[@FlorentiusIV]

I think most people including the creator of this video know that. The point is that even while that "Honour" is generally expected by most orcs it is still something that you apply to yourself while picking and choosing what makes them feel honourable at that given time.. Which makes it interesting but flawed.

[@Ash-qd2ke]

and so it's ok to see your leader die as long as it's honorable? then again, we're talking about orcs

[@slovnicurling9808]

Dude you frogot to say it was dishonorable

[@LycanWitch]

@@Ash-qd2ke That's exactly what happens during a Mak'gora. When an orc challenges another orc, even if that orc is the leader of the clan. all the other orcs of the clan's sole duty is to witness the Mak'gora. Interference is considered cheating and/or dishonorable and is punishable by banishment or death. It's pretty much what all orcs did in the past when there have been a Mak'gora between their warchief and a challenger, even if their warchief lost the battle, they just kept watching, not interfering, and more likely began cheering for the challenger as in their eyes their former warchief was weak for not being able to defend themselves or beat the challenger who is now their new warchief or deeply respected warrior (if not eligible to be leader (i.e. member of an enemy faction) or doesn't want to). A good example of a Mak'gora between a warchief and a challenger that was witnessed by many orcs in which none interfered, regardless of their devotion to their leader, is the fight between Orgrim Doomhammer and Warchief Blackhand. Here's an official Blizzard definition: Mak'gora means "duel of honor" and is an orcish custom whereby someone may challenge another person to individual combat. The ritualistic duel has been often used to obtain a position of leadership, such as a fight for the position of group leader, clan chieftain, or Warchief of the Horde, but not necessarily. Mak'gora is practiced by ogre clans as well.

[@Ash-qd2ke]

@@LycanWitch is it a Mak'gora though... perhaps it is for Saurfang, but the other races certainly cares little about the so called "Duel of Honor"

[@jsc1jake512]

as a diehard Horde main (I have no alliance characters lol) I think that Sylvanas is leading the Horde down the right path she just needs to add more honor into her actions. Saurfang however has honor but his pride in that blinds him from the Orc warcry Lok'tar Ogar! = Victory or Death! he does want his warriors death but he isn't focusing enough on victory.

[@insertname9140]

Jacob Clark >die hard horde main. >has lich king profile pic

[@MongoIndyleo]

"If Saurfang had actually killed Malfurion, Sylvanas would not have burned the tree" That quote pretty much sums up my problem with your whole argument. First, the technical. Saurfang's actions did not force Sylvanas to burn the tree. Not at all. She said herself that the Night Elves needed to lose their home and their leaders to turn the alliance against each other. She already knew that the leaders were already out of her grasp. So what does she do? Make the Night Elves lose their home *more*? Obviously, that makes no sense because it is impossible. There was literally no point in burning down Teldrassil other than to spite the Aliiance, the Night Elves, and Saurfang. And *that* is the main difference between the ideologies, as you put it, of Saurfang and Sylvanas. Saurfang cares for what we would call the human condition, but that would apply to all races in Azeroth. He doesn't want anyone to suffer. He has suffered all of his life, so he know what it is like to suffer, and he does not want to inflict the same kind of pain on the other races of Azeroth. Burning down a home and one of the most important parts of your culture is true suffering. Seeing your comrades be turned to Undead and forced to fight again against their will is true suffering. In Malfurion's case, he is super powerful. Only a select few can actually wound him. Saurfang is one of them. Sylvanas seems like the only one powerful enough and deceitful enough to actually consider striking Malfurion dishonorably. Yet Saurang does it. That betrayal, that gentleman's code of war where factions leaders wouldn't strike at each other dishonorably, was broken. That is true suffering. On the other hand, Sylvanas does not give shit about the human condition. Not even of the Horde. Some of the Horde watched their own comrades be raised from the dead only moments after their honorable death on the battlefield. Sylvanas didn't even think twice. And this is why everyone hates her for this expac. Because she is inflicting needless suffering just on the off chance that it leads to victory. This is not the way to do this, and most people realize this. It's the equivalent of saying that the ends justify the means, which is exactly what has been said by countless a dictator in order to do horrible things. Finally, I will leave you with this quote, by none other than the other "bad" warchief (Who I still believe is more honorable and likeable than Sylvanas) Honor, Krom'gar; Never forsake it.

[@ochrerune5150]

This comment needs to be seen more. This is why Saurfang is my warchief.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Ah yes the Night Elves... infamous for giving into despair when horrible shit and mass murder occurs to them. Brilliant strategy.

[@juanfe1213]

Just as Sylvanas said, "Honor means nothing to a corpse" In a moral way, Saurfang is "correct" but in a selfish way, however, I still look at the War of Thorns in a Militar and Strategic way and yeah, Malfurion's death would cause a wound that can't be healed. If Saurfang didn't screwed up, the plan would be carried correctly and the outcome would be different. But it didn't happen and the only choice for Sylvanas was to eliminate the major outpost of the alliance on Kalimdor, even if lots of innocent lives had to be taken. Sorry for everyone who supports Saurfang but I like to see things in the way of efficiency and as Hirumaredx said, Sylvanas is the most efficient.

[@Caedus696]

It wasn't effective though. It did not demoralize them all it did was enrage the Elves and make them go back to their savage roots. The smart tactical thing to do would be to go with the original plan, which was to secure teldrassil and hold the population hostage, which would have been more devastating because the Alliance would be forced to a standstill for fear of the hostages being harmed.

[@juanfe1213]

@@Caedus696 Yeah, that is what I'm talking about. With Malfurion dead the Horde would take Teldrassil and make their civilians hostages. When the fight against Malfurion happened the horde took control of Darkshore already. But it didn't happen and Sylvanas knew that the survival of the druid would bring problems so she did what she did. (My english suck)

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@Caedus696 Yeah cuz waiting for a fucking ARCHDRUID to bring an army and fight him on top of a fucking TREE seems smart.

[@sgtc9635]

Xander it wasn’t effective because it wasn’t the plan. The plan was to kill malfurion.Saurfang ruined that and sylvanas tried to salvage it. In a way Delaryn caused the burning by her knowing and saying the elves still have hope she proved that taking teldarsil would now mean nothing without malfurion death, so hearing that sylvanas had to act to try to salvage what she could

[@Enseraku]

Is this video going to age as well as the “Sylvanas is a benevolent ruler” one?

[@vagri2829]

The time the forsaken were hunted, was a time of confusion, for both factions. The alliance was shook by the forces of the lich king, doing so much harm and evil in the area, that it would seem careless for the king to not use heavy resistance and attack the undead once again with everything they got. Also most of the things done to the forsaken, were by the scarlet crusade, which is NOT the alliance, their actions were just approved, until the alliance found out what they actually did. Also, all these actions would form a massive avalance of war actions between factions not enabling each other to form peace. With that being said, the alliance finally had the chance to form an alliance after the bonding legion invasion. After settling one, Sylvanas started taking actions against the Alliance(because she would not trust the alliance, which I do understand, the alliance is not to be trusted BUT they certantly arent war-hungry). Some members of the horde reached out to them, so that they can take actions to prevent another war, in which she found out and killed everyone there, naming them traitors(which they were), to justify her actions. My point is that most people seek peace, but there are people like Sylvanas or Greymane, who do not. That is why she is called a villain.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@Feli Aslan Hahaha Classic Sylvannas, doing the old switcheroo.

[@hisokamorow6709]

Yeah cuz god forbid if there is a war in WARcraft.

[@Pemmont107]

As an Alliance player I agree with you: Sylvanas (and the Forsaken) are justified in their distrust of the us. We abandoned them after they got their free-will back from the Lich King. We left them to fend for themselves in a hostile world; forcing them to turn to the Horde while we turned away. We've been hostile ever since, poking at Forsaken territory and holding onto the dream of retaking Lordaeron Keep (regardless of those who still "lived" there). *However!* : ~Nothing~ justifies genocide. It's true, the Alliance has been hostile for the Forsaken since their inception, but we have never committed the vile deeds that the Forsaken have done. And I'm not talking about underhanded battle tactics (like using Rogues to assassinate guards, Valk'yre to raise the dead, etc). I'm talking about plague bombing civilian settlements in the intention of killing every man, woman and child (Southshore, Gilneas). I'm talking about setting an entire world tree ablaze with the intention subjecting every man, woman, child and woodland creature to a horrific death; just for the sake of "killing hope". Sylvanas may be justified in her intentions, but ~her~ actions are utterly evil, and yes we're no saints, but there's nothing the Alliance has, or ever will do, that has come even close to the depravity of some of the things she has done. Also a quick addition: She may be good at winning battles in the short term; but these always have a tendency to bite her - and the horde - in the ass later down the line. For example: she waged a brilliant campaign in Gilneas, and conquered it quickly and efficiently. But just think of how much of a pain Genn and his vengeful Worgen have been to her plans - Who are entirely justified in their hated against the Forsaken, for destroying their home. But I think the best example of this was Teldrassil itself: She burnt it to destroy the Kaldorei's hope; instead all she accomplished was the ire of an ancient race - and a massive Alliance army marching to her doorstep.

[@shiftystab5072]

I really enjoy how you took the evidence and your own view of how you like the characters. It was a good mix of slight opinion and facts. I also agree with sly but I was missing some key facts that I learned from this video. Really good video, I very much enjoy these (:

[@Desolate-Utopia]

You all know it's almost April 1 right? *(wink wink)* That being said.. I think Hiru is playing 3D chess and he puts videos he knows are going to be controversial, but he also believes himself in one way or another, on April fools so people won't get as angry as they would on any other day. Joke or not, I actually feel pretty similarly to the video. I like Saurfang, but with the way Blizzard is writing him and Sylvanas, they leave plenty of room for Horde players to dislike the both of them for a myriad of reasons. The Horde player base, and the Horde races in general, are so disjointed at this point, I don't know how they're going to clean this up.

[@samscorpio]

he really belives sylvanas is 'good', and turning blind eye to how they f8cked her character in every exp, he is flat out ignoring that blizz said she had a hand in Battle for Undercity, a retcon after over 10 years pased

[@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506]

3D chess is just normal chess lmao

[@Desolate-Utopia]

@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 Meant 4d, rip. I mean, he's a smart guy so *obviously* he'd be one to play regular chess. That's what I meant all along.

[@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506]

@@Desolate-Utopia It seems like you were playing 4D chess all along

[@mrs.alienrope5778]

i think Saurfang just didnt like the fact that he hit Malfurion from behind and sneakily, not head on into battle facing the enemy. I feel like that is what he means by honor for him. or he has changed his definition of honor because people can change and ideologies can evolve.

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

Sneak attacks in battle are fine. Sneak attacking someone who's in a fair duel is something else entirely.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@Brooke-rw8rc Your commander officer tell you to help him/her out on the fight, you knock the dude out, but don't finish the job, you get shot for being a traitor. No honor.

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

@@hisokamorow6709 not if you're an orc and you ruined an honorable duel.

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@Brooke-rw8rc What is more "dishonorable" kill who your commander officer tells you to. Or been a traitor. It's war. Neither of them were orc. Neither of them considere it a duel. It was a kill or die.

[@yusukeelric]

@@hisokamorow6709 saurfang is a warrior, not a soldier

[@darklorddracula512]

One of my favorite video from you so far! (subscribed since early 2018)

[@Ishinhill]

Honor in the sense of a warrior is different from simple honor of a person. Saurfang and orcs in general have had many single combat battles between the top fighters. You can see this when Cairne fought garrosh, or when the OG Anduin fought at blackrock. You can say that it was a huge fight in this instance, but it was the leaders who sought each other out as worthy opponents. When Anduin died the orcs expected since the leader of them fell they would lose themselves and flee. Instead they rallied and fought all the harder. It is an honorable fight only if the fight is against one that deserves that honor.

[@MegaChickenfish]

I think a lot of it boils down to Tyrande's point around 6:20, echoed again with what convinced Baine to ultimately stand against Sylvanas: Why does your honor demand you stop *here* when surely you crossed the line of what's honorable ages ago? There's screwing up and realizing your mistake too little too late, and then there's just inconsistency. I'll still take "trying to stick to a sense of honor" over "let's just forget honor entirely and start lighting civilians on fire."

[@sgtc9635]

Except for that whole fact that it was planned by saurfang and the whole purpose of the incursion. To kill mail demoralize the nelfs and take the city. He fails to do his duty, sylvanas recognizes how badly he failed when delaryn points out “we will never lose hope”. So rather then take defeat . As taking the city would have been. She try’s to increase the force projection by leveling the tree. Is it heinous yes it is. Is it in line with the story definitely, is it sylvanas failure? No it’s saurfangs. The tree would not have burned but for him

[@Damian12380]

Some ppl just dont get it that this is an April fools vid.

[@vake1234]

was this video for first of April?

[@HouseVinstor]

Sylvans - Badass Leader Jaina - OP mary sue psychopat, that has out of nowhere power level of arcimonde

[@lordeli8866]

is good to see out there more sylvanas support, I am sick of blizzards mary sue characters like, jaina, thralls, suarfang , Anduin and tyrande

[@googlyeyedsenpai5870]

Yeah great character. Shes just the kid who never got over her edgy faze. Im not surprised shes super popular with the kids and sweaty incels.

[@Oh-Ben]

@@googlyeyedsenpai5870 That could be said for both.

[@Vulcorio]

​@@lordeli8866, dude, Warcraft Lore is not about being selfish dick that does no good. RPG world, if done right, is about justice. There has to be a villain, and there has to be a bunch of good heroes to stop the villain, because that brings satisfaction, to overcome the great evil. Silvana is just on the wrong side of playerbase. If you want greedy, bloody and dark world - WoW is not the one for you, in fact, there's very little amount of those because they're just not popular. Mary sue characters like Jaina, Thrall, Saurfag, Anduin and Varian Wrynn is way to go

[@dogswifty7800]

I like Garrosh as a character and everything you said about Garrosh's honor and ideology makes him a good villain. He did everything the way he did because it was what he believed, I just didn't like that blizzard decided to make him a bad guy.

[@MrSlaughterrific]

heroes aren't always limited to being reactive. it depends on the framework

[@lucienmorgenstern7819]

This aged well

[@Spyro2292]

I think one thing to point out about Saurfang sending in rogues to kill sentinels, is that isn't actually comparable to him striking Malfurion when he was fighting Sylvanas. It's one thing to assassinate a target you need dead. It's another thing to strike an enemy from behind that is already engaged in combat, like interrupting a duel between two people. Obviously honor is in some cases up to interpretation, but one very common attribute of honor is to not strike an enemy from behind in a duel, ESPECIALLY if it isn't your duel. Saurfang struck Malfurion during a 1v1 essentially, and that is what he meant when he said it was dishonorable. I get where this video is going, but Saurfang is in fact honorable. Not perfect mind you, he made a lot of mistakes... but he is honorable. I feel a lot of the points you're making don't actually stick when you see the whole picture, a lot of the information from this quest chain has been left out in a way that makes it seem like you're trying to make Saurfang out to be the villain while showcasing Sylvanas as a deep compelling character. I cant help but feel a tidbit of bias in this video, but perhaps that's just me. Regardless i feel Saurfang is in fact Honorable though he is very much flawed, he yearns to join his family and clan in death as such he tends to act recklessly from time to time.

[@sgtsaldl]

Can't say I agree with you, I think Saurfang being a more complex character then just a mindless Duh honor or death character is very refreshing. And Really Malfurion was the ONLY real target they needed dead in that war and capture the city this whole situation could have ben in avoided if he just killed Malfurion right there. Just think of all the life that has ben ended thanks to the 1 decision. Saurfang is a selfish prick and that is great. ''Honor the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right'' If he is truly trying to be a honorable he should have killed him. Letting an enemy leader just go could prolong a war by years especially when it is a war veteran and proved leader like Malfurion. Killing him could have saved so many lives with a shorter war. Also I think he is a coward for he could just have declared mak'gora if he truly tough her actions was so evil but he didn't he turn his back to his people and that sounds pretty dishonorable to me.

[@birddogne666]

I have to disagree with you assessment. Saurfang is indeed without honor because he failed his Warchief. He disobeyed her order to kill Malfurion. Sylvanas and Malfurion were not in a mok'gora. Hell, that only applies to Orcs! This confrontation with Malfurion was the plan and he messes it all up by not finishing him. (Just another sign of "Plot Armor" from Blizzard to preserve an "Alliance" hero.) Later on, Saurfang actually agrees to help the Alliance?!?! (More Blizzard "Plot Armor"... smh) Saurfang is not only dishonorable but he's also a traitor to the Horde!

[@Evan-mt7bc]

The biggest reason for Saurfang supporters I found likely goes back to them liking Thrall and wanting Thrall back. They'd turn on Saurfang without a second glance if Thrall announced he'd be Warchief again. Typically also these people that don't want the faction war to be the primary story telling force, they like the idea of Azeroth vs blank, Azeroth vs Deathwing, Azeroth vs Arthas, Azeroth vs Illidan, Azeroth vs The Iron Horde, Azeroth vs The Legion. The faction war to them should be a side story if present at all, the primary story should be uniting the WoW playerbase against 1 identifiable enemy. This is also the primary thought process behind Alliance players because the Alliance doesn't have strong enough characters to carry their story in a faction war story, they rely heavily on big and powerful enemies. From a story telling perspective Sylvanas in BfA is pretty much madlibbed from dialogue that could easily just be replaced with Arthas, Deathwing, Illidan, Grom or Kil'Jaden.

[@ironghost-ug2si]

Fair points, but your analysis ignores certain important facts. First though, a disclaimer: Saurfang’s character does suffer from errors in the writing itself. Yes, it made little sense for Saurfang to feel dishonorable after striking Malfurion from behind, given that he had used Rogues throughout the War of Thorns up to this point. If I were to make excuses for Blizzard I might say that maybe Saurfang believed that the kill, and the fight itself, belonged to Sylvanas, and him interfering was dishonorable, or maybe I could argue that once Malfurion was there, at his mercy, he remembered that just a few months ago they had fought together against the Legion, but in reality I just believe that this was bad writing on Blizzard’s part. This event could have been executed (no pun intended) in a much better way. Now as for Sylvanas’ actions: She is absolutely not justified in her actions. At 3:16 you mention that the Alliance (Genn) attacked her without provocation. Wrong. Don’t forget what Sylvanas did to Gilneas and to Genn’s family specifically. Even if she was under Garrosh’s orders she went through with the plan with complete hate and disdain, killing innocents, blighting the land, and spitting right in Genn’s face all while doing it. You may argue that because of this she must attack, she knows Genn will not forgive her. To that I say: Remember who killed the forsaken civilians in Before the Storm. It wasn’t Genn, it wasn’t the Alliance. It was Sylvanas herself. I wager she knows that the hatred is between her and Genn, so she was unwilling to let her people have peace, because they are her weapons. Weapons she can use to fight Genn, just like the rest of the Horde. Another thing to think about is why she didn’t kill Malfurion herself? She was there, she could have said “f your honor, Saurfang” and pumped Malfurion full of arrows, but she didn’t. Was this to test Saurfang? Or maybe this was done with the knowledge that Saurfang would not kill Malfurion, and she would be able to use that as an excuse down the line. You might have a different opinion on this matter than me, but her true colors showed in her following actions. She burnt the tree down, with civilians, families, and children inside. Regardless if the war up to that point was justifiable or not, what she did was one of the vilest and most evil acts committed in World of Warcraft. Saurfang was willing to kill soldiers up to that point, but she was willing to commit genocide. Not even close to comparable. There’s also the fact that us the viewers can see her reactions to all of this, and she is far from a compassionate leader, doing what she must to defend her own. She is a vile and selfish warmonger, using the Horde as a disposable tool to get what she wants, and how ironic it is that she would mock Saurfang for his suicidal desires when that’s exactly what she did after Arthas was dead. She didn’t care about what happened to her people then, she got what she wanted and was just looking to off herself. She was selfish then and is selfish now. As for Saurfang’s honor you are somewhat right. Even without the poor writing, he is inconsistent from time to time, but there has been one constant with him throughout this whole thing. Don’t kill innocents, don’t kill civilians, don’t kill children, and don’t lead the Horde down a path akin to the demons’ path. He even seemed to instill this belief in the hard headed Garrosh before Blizzard decided to throw that all away. So he does have a consistent code in that regard, which is much more that can be said for the lich queen. It’s also true that he doesn’t always make the right choice, maybe he was wrong in abandoning the Horde. He is a flawed mortal after all, but I would take him as a leader over a genocidal witch who just sees me as an instrument to achieve her goals. Saurfang isn’t perfect, and he’s had his ups and downs, but he still strives to be honorable even if he doesn’t always get it right. I have a feeling we’re about to see the best of him in the following months, and I’m really hoping Sylvanas gets the same treatment that Feral Druid got in Ashenvale…

[@dennismills2220]

Wow that was an amazing video m8! This helped me understand the lore, and therefore the game much better, and it definitely pulls me back into the game/ story. Thanks!!

[@MultiStormywaters]

But, Sylvannas technically isn't terribly great, she's just more than willing to commit atrocities. It's worth noting that her playbook is pretty much just blight and raise dead, even when ordered not to use the blight. She also did not successfully defend Lordaeron, she blighted the city because the alliance was going to win.

[@ramba9816]

Way over thinking it. He hit Malfurion from the back and immediately regretted the action, wishing instead he would have had the chance to fight him face-to-face for a more honorable fight. That's it.

[@Ragnarok182]

I agree, I think this whole video is about over thinking things.

[@sanhexx]

Exactly my thoughts. I'm surprised that so many people couldn't see, or didn't want to see, just how irrational, hypocritical and simply foolish Saurfang's actions were. Thank you very much for this video!

[@Trash_Wendigo]

"fan favorite character." Slyv simps are genuinely the worst members of the community.

[@MrBellyar]

0:52 A leader is someone who thinks about people he/she's responsible for. She's not a successful leader, she's a successful warlord. She has her own vision and everyone needs to die if they have too. She's basically the Hitler of WoW. 1:14 No he didn't do it because she was effective. In warcraft 3 she was just slowing Arthas down and that was annoying to him. So, as punishment he ressurrected her to suffer. 2:14 Garosh failed, nobody cares about that. It's not like he's anyone's favourite. But even he didn't act like a complete beast. 2:18 Successfuly? She blew up the city? How in any shape or form was that a success? Justifying Sylvanas is like justifying cersei from GoT.

[@michaelalves8900]

People fail to realize that Orcs Honor is based on the mythological Viking Honor. Go read about Viking Gods, and how they think about Honor, and you will understand where blizzard is coming from. (Not that they always make it work correctly, many writers, some suck, but the idea is there.) Victory is important to viking honor. But Death in battle and courage is also honorable. Honor is not betraying your brothers in arms. But also culling a leader that is using his army only to his gains. Lying, using underhanded tatics is acceptable. Even Odin did this many times. But butting in on a one on one fair fight is not honorable. Your worhty is based on your skills, and if you are losing on a one on one, you deserve the death. Now on a war, using underhanded tatics to win against enemy army is smart and advised by their honor code. They are only weapons on your arsenal. They are not "knights" with chivalry, and that will never backstab anyone. But they have a different and more pratical code. It is based on trusting your brothers in arms, doing what is necessary to win, being smart, and being strong, and proving said strenght against your opponents. I am far from an specalist on this, so i cannot exactly explain all details about mythological viking honor, but its something around that. Oh, btw, Saurfang did not kill Malfurion because he saw that his leader was WEAKER then enemy leader, and his interference to SAVE HER was an dishonorable blow. Remember, strenght proves worth. If Malfurion was stronger, he deserved to win over Sylvannas. It was her weakness that caused this.

[@KoaFidCZ]

Alliance let the tauren civilians leave, and orcs on Ashenvale, whole Garrosh... Horde is so peaceful... (btw purge of Dalaran was because of Horde stealing Bell+Dalaran was neutral)

[@littlesunshine9218]

Still no reason to slaughter every non-alliance civilian in Dalaran. That was a warcrime regardless.

[@cmerk100]

A video from someone who clearly didn't understand jack all. Not that I even like Saurfang, but there was so much wrong and taken out of context I might as well just shrug because I wouldn't even know where to start. Only thing I will say, is yeah, people have different ideas about what is honorable. That's sort of the point, and it's up to say, the player to see who's viewpoint is more honorable by the actions they take. Like not killing someone after hitting then from the back and acknowledging they did something bad. Orcs dieing in battle has been a long standing tradition for the orcs... partially because the orcish culture is based on the vikings and warhammer orks, who are all about battling to the death. Not hard.

[@nephy_9]

captions at the beginning: "personally a big fan of sauer fink" lol

[@greymanjones5559]

So basically at 17:39 Sylvanas herself states that she wants to win an honorable victory, since the alliance would otherwise unite against them. Then she proceeds to burn the tree with the civilians in there after some nightelf on the ground stirs up her emotions a little too much. What a sorry excuse of a leader going against what she knows would end up being really bad for her and her allies just because someone said something she didn't like.

[@uncensored008]

I think you did a great disservice by not bringing up Broxigar

[@imaran1303]

A april fools video, yet the message is true. Saurfang is not honorable by Orc standards and he is of course, preaching Orcish honor, which makes him a flaming hypocrite.

[@kratosgamerization4907]

Saurfang wanted a 1v1 Duel

[@breaky92]

screw saurfang, lor'themar for president. show them the way of making rational decisions while looking handsome as heck

[@simplyyolo9826]

Dude I'm sad that my boi doesn't get any screen time anymore

[@Veolynn13]

Lor'themar would be cool.

[@MarkoArillius]

I have not finished this video. I normally hate replying to videos until I'm done with them. I will listen to this video in full and correct this comment if it turns out you address what I say. With that said... You are flat out wrong about Sylvanas being 'not entirely villainous'. She is the one that engineered the mistrust between her and the alliance after purposefully sabatoging a meeting between alliance humans and forsaken that actually went fucking perfectly because the forsaken liked Callia too much. There was never any talk about dethroning her. Quite the opposite, Anduin was struggling for peace with her people and his, and she went into that meeting from the beginning planning on using it to further mentally and emotionally shackle her own people to her. She did that, and we know she did that, because she confessed she was going to do that to Nathanos before it happened. Further more, she spoke to someone who was dying, someone who -could not- carry any message and so we can assume this conversation is actually honest. And her stated goal? To literally kill hope, while a tree full of tens of thousands of innocent civilians burned behind her. She has also attacked and destroyed two cities, slaying civilians and people alike, with biological weapons using the same general powers and dark shit that made her what she is. I will give you this. She is effective. She is very, very good at what she does. She is, in fact, furthering the Horde agenda in some ways. But she is also a straight up villain. She attacked Gilneas under Garroshes orders not because he told her to but to a.) test her new blight and b.) raise them all from them dead to make a new army. She could, at any fucking time, give up Gilneas at at no cost to herself and make a lot of headway in defanging the one political opponent she had on the other side of the aisle, Greymane. There'd be a lot of trouble, sure, but she could make peace with Anduin and then use him as a shield against Greymane, who at this point has sworn fealty to Anduin's line and the Alliance. Instead, she went out of her way to do the same thing to a second Alliance race. Ultimately, we are also forgetting that she is alive and not dead because the Alliance are being crippled by plot. We have the Lightforged. We have the Lightforged and their weapons. We have weapons capable of Orbital strikes, Orbital insurgents and Orbital defense. The Horde has... eagles from high mountain. This war should be over, but it's not because plot, so her effectiveness is ultimately based on how much the writers remember the Light Forged are capable of. Finally, we have one last point. She is effective in military tactics (as long as the writers pretend the Alliance doesn't have Orbital control), but horribly stupid at political machinations. She has literally set herself up as Garrosh 2.0 by being a dumbass and ignoring the literal PEACE that was between the horde and alliance. You point out that Saurfang couldn't argue with her about not trusting the alliance, but the only points she raised he couldn't argue against were the alliance not being able to forgive the forsaken, which Anduin actually TRIED to do despite Greymane not a fucking week later, and which she herself sabotaged because she didn't want to lose her forsaken meatshield because she's going to literal hell for being a literal monster that gave up empathy and emotion willingly (undead can clearly still feel emotions, she has chosen not too) in the pursuit of vengeance and is now paying the price for it (losing her spot in the light/heaven).

[@MarkoArillius]

You did address part of it, that Anduin's intent for peace was real, but failed to talk about a couple facts. The actual sabotage she committed and the fact that Anduin is literally a different king, something Sylvanas, as an elf, knows a great deal about. Further more, it wasn't the Alliance, but a neutral Dalaran, that imprisoned the Blood Elves on Dalaran for, admittedly, being complicit in an actual Genocide of Theramore. Not all of them did it, but one or two did, and the Dalaran mages couldn't be sure who. And they used the Dalaran portals to do it. That's justifiable. The Blood Elves getting pissy about it because it actually turned out to just be one of them that did it under Garrosh's orders against their wishes doesn't change the fact that someone on their side made the Theramore Genocide possible. Lothemar backing out of joining the alliance after that both makes sense and doesn't and Jaina's reaction, while perfectly understanable, was hardly the action of the Alliance, who in that very expansion COULD have destroyed the horde and spared it instead. And that was the old king. By the way, that old king may have committed to a war against the horde, but rarely was it anything more then responsive, with a few exceptions being caused by Garrosh's escalation and a war criminal on the alliance side who, yes, did represent them and, yes, does prove that some humans are scum. Considering the expac though, that questline just kind of proved that both sides had scum (looking at Stonetalon and the attempt at druid genocide and actual child murder there). Then you manage to ignore one big point. Sylvanas, after trying to kill Arthas, allied with humans... and then betrayed them in battle, using them as bait to get her win. She can't complain that humans don't trust her after that, particularly when... drumroll please... it turns out that the Wrathgate was under her orders all along and she tricked both the alliance and horde into thinking she was innocent! That's right, as effective as she is, Sylvanas has shown time and again she is literally the best definition for a back stabbing asshole that you can have, killing anyone, ally or not, in her way to get what she wants. She is a villain and as long as she is at the helm of the Horde, she will cause war through that villainy. Like this war we have right now... which she CAUSED during a literal time of PEACE when the Horde and Alliance were working together for years fighting the Legion and managed to cross faction lines. Oh, and finally... Thrall had more military victories, literally carving and then holding the Horde territory they had as Warchief. As much as I hate the green jesus, he is in fact the most successful Warchief on a Political and War front to this day. Though his biggest mistake is also the biggest mistake of the horde too. Looking at Garrosh here.

[@MarkoArillius]

Annnd finally lets talk about Saurfangs honor. I can tell that you have a very certain opinion about his honor. I can also tell that you have literally no idea why hiring assassins was honorable to him but attacking Malfurion isn't. One was war. The other was a one on one fight that he stepped in on. That is very, very easily defined as dishonorable in a lot of fantasy. It is such a common trope that even honorable villains sometimes have that. It's not 'whatever he wants is honorable'. It's 'soldiers can be killed, one on one duels should not be interfered with, Civilians are off limits'. A very militaristic sort of honor, but honor nonetheless. Finally (hopefully the last time I use this word), Saurfang is tired of outliving people because he keeps losing friends. It's not just about honor. He questions every war the horde gets into now after Garrosh and Sylvanas and their crazy shit. He questions if all his friends, his SON, dying is worth it. He wonders what honor is... and realizes that his answers are pretty damn heavy. So he briefly considers the easy way out. Go fight the alliance 1 v 10000 and die, because it's easier then dealing with the fact that he once again followed a genocidal maniac. Cowardly, but not random. So at this point, since you clearly think his honor is just random bullshit, instead of actually bothering to give it any thought at all, I'm done. You have actions that clearly outline his lines and ignore them in favor of 'it's stupid.'

[@iesdise]

Sylvanas is the leader that takes action, something the horde has always needed. *Change my mind.*

[@rozgg]

well, we had garrosh.

[@wowpsgaming]

@@rozgg garrosh was pure racist , sylvanas isn't

[@mateodelossantos3397]

Also dazaralor was a straight up attack on soldiers. Darnassus was the burning of innocent. Not the same degree

[@hisokamorow6709]

Its a city, that they couldn't protect. Innocents, war casualties.

[@messler5636]

So true man the horde always try to show they are inocent

[@garygood6804]

No alliance is innocent.

[@messler5636]

@@garygood6804 yes it is the horde are the bad guys

[@garygood6804]

@@messler5636 you read my post incorrectly. Alliance eats gronn balls.

[@ВалентинМиладинов-ь8ь]

Is this Sylvannas Lelouch and Saurfang Suzaku somehow basically, it is kind of relatable.

[@Skippylol]

More like Saurfang is Saber and Sylvanas is Kiritsugu

[@jaded-harper]

@@Skippylol sylvanas will never be anywhere near as badass as kiritsugu

[@hisokamorow6709]

@@jaded-harper Yeah cuz Sylvanas plans, have a plan, within a plan. Not like Kiritsugu "I want to save the world" "How?" "I don't know, with a miracle, or something, u tell me, magical cup, that looks like my probably dead, baby mama"

[@ChEILoZ]

I love the fact that so many people try and portay the alliance as the meanies. Saurfang literally says in the cinematic "They'll come for us now, all of them!" BfA is all about that Horde is evil and Alliance good only to switch perspective at the last minute and we get a glimps at Sylvanas true intentions.

[@joselemans49]

Another great quality piece of art from you, I gladly turn off adblock whenever I watch your videos. Thank you sir.

[@Ash-qd2ke]

I believe in what Sylvanas believes in. Honor means nothing to a corpse, however she is not dealing with a single race, she's dealing with multiple people with different cultures and sometimes players tend to forget each characters motivation. Have you ever thought what Sylvanas was thinking why she's doing all this? (you know without the OH SHES CRAZY AND EVIL AND WANTS EVERYONE TO BECOME UNDEAD!!!!) Or with Saurfang, understand why the concept of orcish honor is so important to him (not the HE'S AN HONORABLE ORC!!! HE SHOULD WE WARCHIEF!!! or TRAITOR!!! ALLIANCE KISSER)

[@BenHyuga]

Garrosh was honorable, he did nothing wrong.

[@rdsasuke1]

This was a surprisingly good video. For a person who doesn't usually make lore videos you have a very solid grasp on it. I honestly cannot disagree with anything you said. Hop you do more lore videos in the future.

[@linkzellda]

World of Warcraft? More like World of Excusescraft because that is exactly what we see. Everyone in Warcraft just has a poor excuse to justify their bad decisions.

[@terradraca]

Sylvanas' justifications hit their expiry date a long time ago. There was NO reason for both sides to not simply go their separate ways after the legion was ended.