How EV Makers Cheated The Game... And Still Lost!

[@BarryHaegerSalesCoach]

Dave, there's another important point you missed in how we as customers are being scammed on EV prices. That higher than justified Manufacturer's LIST PRICE (particularly on EVs) is set high for their benefit BUT often takes a pretty ordinary EV version over £40k and therefore subject to the LUXURY CAR TAX for years to come (years 2 to 6) even if first sold to us the public at a massive discount with only delivery mileage on it! As of next April for instance will be paying £180 VED +£400 LUXURY CAR TAX on a car I bought used 18 months ago and today would be used £15-£16k on AutoTrader

[@johndinsdale1707]

I would also add, in the UK there are no longer any full market motor shows. All reviews are on YT or in magazines that show the MSRP. Most new cars are sold on PCPs which work off the MSRP with a dealer contributions. Leases prices are a compete farce and bear no resemblance to the PCP costs (usually less than half, sometimes a quarter). The lease returns market will be a complete disaster for EVs/PHEVs and it will only get worse as BIK distortion continue.

[@stuartburns8657]

This is partly why we've hung onto our (granted 2 x paid off diesels) So currently both are £20 and £30 annual roadtax. Ulez exempt. Crazy that you are paying that much going forward, but the Gov needs it's pound of flesh from somebody 😢

[@andrewfleming8103]

Gee it's not like vehicles from purely EV manufacturers aren't well overpriced. Maybe they're just more expensive to manufacture? Seriously, I'd consider an EV as a second runabout car but given the multitude of drawbacks to EVs it would need to be about 50% the cost of its ICE equivalent not +50% to +100%. At the moment my runabout is a 2002 ex-Telstra (Australia) Toyota Hiace, worth rock-all but still runs well (300,000kM on the clock). I would absolutely NOT consider a second hand EV, I don't need the fire hazard.

[@MatsDance]

The insights from this video alone justifies subscribing and a binge watch of previous videos. Well done Sir.

[@Jaw0lf]

The direct to the customer sales will be the way forward. Buying my Tesla M3 RWD was super simple and easy, no pressure from sales people or price changes. Legacy have been using tricks for a long time and this has exposed the issue that will no doubt help to bring them down. EV’s from China should not have the crazy tariffs just to bring them up to pricing of the legacy. All this does is cause price rises for the customers.

[@davidmaskew]

And no chance of a discount or a deal. Nowhere to contact if you have an issue and just pop in to sort it out.

[@tomooo2637]

@@davidmaskew Ha ha. We bought a car from a dealer and they forgot that the heated seats were no longer on that car. Answer - ...... (I got a warning on trying to put in the word for word comment) we don't care. Not dealing with a dealer was a wonderful experience. I am old and have bought quite a few cars, and every one, you had to find the scam somewhere.

[@DanaVastman]

​@@davidmaskewI've had a Tesla for over 4 years and zero problems. You are a blithering idiot. Best car in the world by far. I'm 75 years young and have had oodles of crap cars. You're just dumb. Personally, I can't stand Elon musk but Tesla is mind-blowing and amazing in what they create. You're ignorance is astounding

[@steveabbott8638]

Great assessment Dave, spot on. Legacy auto are in the throes of the Blockbuster effect. Thank you for posting

[@karlwest437]

Today I learned I'm not devious enough to be a car dealer

[@shadeburst]

I bought most of my cars used and the only lemons were those I bought from family where I was under pressure not to refuse, and unable to negotiate on price. Used car dealers are said to be as bad as lawyers but I've never had problems there.

[@GRD1978]

I wonder if this is what happened with Renault Megane E-Tech? I got my car in August this year, with only 2,000 miles on, but was registered on the 30th December 2022. I can't believe a car would do only 2000 miles in 18 months and reckon it was just parked up at a dealers for quite a lot of that time. On the positive, I got the car for less than half the price of buying new, but it is like driving a new car!

[@spankeyfish]

That's an old trick. The manufacturer or dealer network wants each dealer to sell X cars per year so they register some that are in stock so they can put them in the 'sold' column of the spreadsheet. It's also done to claim incentives, dodge changes in taxes etc.

[@robinrdale8318]

I looking at one of Megan it’s already come down 7k in about 6 months , think when the 5 come out they will be about 16k for a 24 version

[@stephenclay6852]

This system of preregistration of cars to push up there sales has been going on for at least the last 20 years way before Ev’s came out. Ford Ford used to get the cars and had 30 days to pay for them

[@davidmaskew]

If a car has been pre registered when does the manufacturer warranty run out?

[@stevenbarrett7648]

All scary stuff and its been going on for years. Our local Stoneacre took a car back off us when the 2 year lease finished, months later Ford Finance threatened us for stealing the car !. Lucky for me I had a receipt for additional mileage the dealer insisted we pay for plus a photo of the car on their lot a few days later marked up for sale!. It turned out the dealer manager had sold the car but not paid over the cash to Ford Finance. I have not bought a Ford since. We bought a Tesla two years ago with the intent to keep it five to ten years, we worked out our total cost of ownership for these two scenario's and decided it was worth the cash investment. Not really interested in a 'bargain' as we know by 2028 most available vehicles will be electric only and at the right price plus (as you pointed out) the day of the dealership is rapidly coming to an end, tomorrow's drivers will buy direct as that's what they understand, click & collect, no sales waffle or shiny dealerships required. Keep up the great work Dave !

[@stuartburns8657]

I feel 2028 is rather optimistic for the scenario of most cars available will be EV's personally, but time will tell

[@andrewwilkinson8250]

@@stuartburns8657very optimistic indeed.

[@chrishart8548]

If it was leased why was there any finance ? Didn't it just get returned to the lease company.

[@briangriffiths1285]

Recently swapped my MG ZSEV for a new heavily discounted one (circa £9.5k off!) the dealer produced a document with a part exchange value of £1700 less than Motorway. I pointed out that he was getting a pristine low mileage car and we agreed on the pe price close to Motorway. I declined the everbrite or whatever and the deal was done in 45 minutes. Could have been done in 20 if he hadn’t messed about. The handover was very efficient though! No need to waste time. Gone are the days when cars were special they are merely transport for the most part.

[@kevinnicholson7722]

Ive always said nearly new cars are the real bargains. But I would want to know the maker will still be there in 5 years. Not sure which makers will be......

[@rusty911s2]

I worked at a Citroen dealer once and we had two XM's 'out on demo.' In reality they've been sold to the local taxi company (who had paid for them. The dealer principle got found out when a spot check happened to coincide with one of the XM's 6000 mile service (remember them?). The auditor asked about the reg, the DP said 'oh yes, out with Mr and Mrs Wilkins, a lovely couple and I'm sure they're going to order one.' 'Interesting' said the auditor 'that being the case, why is it in your workshop right now with 'Bob's Taxis written all over it, a taxi sign on the roof and 7k miles on the clock.' We had so many stories, but I have to say, dodgy as the DP was, it was never at the cost to a customer, it was always to our many creditors. As a complete aside, when the ZX's came in for their very first service every single one got advised on front discs and front wishbone bushes, neither covered by warranty. The sticker on the rear screen? Citroen ZX, everything about it says quality.' Happy days.

[@davetakesiton]

Not so rare as I thought then? PS I took back an XM in P/X what a cracking car that was

[@stevelongden7368]

Excellent vid Dave, well done 👍

[@leslie19611]

Not much has changed, mainly just the motivation for month end registrations. It used to be to meet the manufacturer's sales targets and it still is, but rather than just sales volumes it's now more to meet the targets for sales of zero emissions vehicles. As I think you suggested, Dave, the problem will be when the dealers no longer have room or money to keep taking new cars from the manufacturers.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Is this ZEV tartget driven, or is this just another factor is an already extremely depressed market sgement. Reason for thinking this might be the case is pre-reg is occuring with ICE cars as well not just EVs, even with EV pre-regs a fair few automakers will still not hit the ZEV 22% threeshold, and this practice has been going on for years particularly when there is a downturn in private sales. EVs sell mainly through the fleet/company car segment, where BiK tax, rate deals and pricing incentives make EVs the preferrential choice in the UK. The industry fugures show this and not private sales is where most growth is taking place. Although EV private sales are fairing better than other fuel-types the market segment overall is shrinking.

[@terryrigden4860]

Very brave of you to expose this.

[@LysanderLH]

They’ll just copy the Tesla ‘pay before you receive’ model and will probably deliver to your door so as to negate salesmen,showrooms and bargaining.

[@JohnJones-ri7pi]

I’ve a feeling the majority of them will be bust before they get the opportunity to do that

[@LysanderLH]

@@JohnJones-ri7pi Do you think Musk could decide to pull the plug on EVs because China can undercut his prices by 50% all day long?

[@johndoyle4723]

Thanks for the insight to the murky world of car sales, you are now a hate figure in the dealerships. Watch out for a rush of pre reg EVs early next year to avoid the premium excise duty, and we can probably rely on the government to lob in an hand grenade in the budget.

[@robinallen7356]

Would I buy an EV that's been sat idle in a car dealership's car park for months or even years? Probably. But not if I knew how its battery has been treated. I went to test drive an MG recently and they sent me out in it with only 13 miles of range left on the battery. Not 13 percent. 13 miles. How long had it been sat at only a few percent charge? Days? Weeks? Months? What's coming do these dealerships is a big reality check. Ridiculous prices were ok when there were subsidies and when selling to first time buyers, sometimes with more cash than common sense. Now the market will be driven by what second-hand buyers are willing, and able, to pay to those who are passing their pre-owned vehicles on.

[@kevinmurray1569]

What makes this worse is the fact that the warranty starts at the date of registration. So if it was unregistered you might take the chance as any issues would be covered, whereas with pre-registered you've lost however long its been sitting on the lot

[@fluxfieldshow]

You can get battery state of health from an OBD-II sensor.

[@PJWey]

Don’t, just get a brand new Tesla or Chinese EV straight off the boat 😊 Nobody trusts dealers and their is good reason

[@daveryder4430]

We bought a MachE in March, a much better deal then a direct replacement for our Kuga PHEV. A 48mnth PCP protects against a massive PX slump, plus we hit the PCP contract hand back clause at 40mths. Then add that it's an awesome car.

[@shadeburst]

In my country the stock of unsold vehicles on the dealer's floor is called the floor plan. In legacy times the chances of closing the sale dropped to almost zero if the dealer didn't have that model and colour on the showroom floor. I'm out of touch now and don't know how much the ability to spec your car on the web has changed that. Cars are usually sold at cost or below as the dealers make their profit from the full maintenance plan - replacement parts normally being marked up at least 150 per cent. I imagine that pirate spare parts are unknown in the EV business and everything is OEM?

[@antoniopalmero4063]

Very interesting Dave , a couple of months ago Nissan were selling on Autotrader leafs for £13k . They all had around 15 miles on their clocks and were pre registered a couple of years ago . I guess they pre registered to avoid the hefty fines for not selling enough EVs so either way they are win win if it sells for list price or if they save 15k for basically selling it to themselves .

[@bobs4738]

Love the summer/Hawaii shirts Dave. Maybe a good time to switch to more autumnal colours though?

[@Thetyrerepairer]

I ordered my Honda EV at a dealership. But I had an account opened up with Honda through the dealership. They then updated the build info and delivery info to my account. They even registered the car with the DVLA.

[@Robotadept]

I did same had to order the car apply for finance online but had to select the dealer I want to collect the car from everything done online the dealer just had to register the car and hand it over

[@Radiomate]

very interesting, just came accross your channel and looking at buying my first EV, looking at the MG4, love your vids Dave

[@davetakesiton]

Welcome on board Matthew

[@peterjones6640]

I have an MG4 (Trophy) my view is that great value for money.

[@Paul99T]

I also have MG4 Trophy ... best car I've ever had. Having had an BEV for a year now, I'd never go back to ICE (or hydrogen for that matter 😂) . Sure one day they'll make something way better but until then I'm happy with an EV.

[@Radiomate]

​@@peterjones6640yeh I'm 99% sure thats my next car.

[@Radiomate]

​@@Paul99Tthat's fantastic, went to the showroom today and it's stunning! Such a lot of car for the money. Never even driven an EV, mainly use the car for school runs and pottering around town and will nearly always charge at home so makes perfect sense. The trophy is the one I want too.

[@leemitchell3302]

I’m sure it’s going on but I have to say in the last 3 months both myself and my wife have replaced our ICE cars with EVs… Volvo and Volkswagen being the EV manufacturers On both occasions we’ve had to wait for them to be built and were kept up to date with the build progress via Online portals. Neither car had any extras so pretty standard. If they were pre registered or stockpiled they’re going to some lengths to fool the consumer.

[@chrishart8548]

I had to wait from March till October for my skoda Enyaq to be built and delivered. Worth the wait though I've done 17k now. Average 4.2miles per kw

[@billpugh58]

Well that’s 200k

[@leemitchell3302]

@@billpugh58 ?

[@williamlowry2487]

What an interesting video! I’ve seen comments that Tesla in the US have been “delivering” their cars straight to a field! I wonder if this is for similar sales figures reasons?

[@jasonmugridge]

Dave you might want to take a look at prices in China, and I don't mean the Chinese manufacturers. The ones I know are VW ID3 £12,000 and VW Passat £20,000, and these are not some striped down basic models they normally have much better specs and equipment than anything we get here. Also Tesla was selling the Model 3 for £25,000.

[@aperitifs]

Loved this video,better than a netflix addiction!

[@moskitoh2651]

I typically buy cars with 75%-90% discount. There is no trick behind. They are called "used" cars. Benefit is, that when you buy them, the problems of these cars are already known, so you can avoid the ones, which matter to you. I sell them preferrably, after the price has raised, which is very common from 25-30 years of age. Rises of price about 200% is not uncommon.

[@TheLDunn1]

I’ve worked in the UK automotive product development industry for over 3 decades. I really don’t want to buy a Chinese EV. I would consider buying a new ‘22 model over a new ‘24 model, IF the discount on the ‘22 model was sufficiently large enough, but if it was only a few percent difference, I’d want to get the ‘24 model for sure….the ‘22 model would be worth less if you had to sell shortly after you purchased it.

[@twig3288]

The batteries degrade with time are well as duty cycles, so two years standing idle is not good

[@TheLDunn1]

@@twig3288 arguably it’s worse for batteries to just be standing & unused than to be cycled often.

[@DaddyC4R10]

Eye opening. Well done.

[@iantaylor1172]

Luckily all the 7000 vehicles( cars and vans of all fuels) at our depot are pretty much sold units. .

[@duncanbuchanan218]

I think the idea that the Chinese makers are not playing this game of pre registering cars is probably wrong. My take is that ALL new car list prices are overblown. Post pandemic from mid 2021 there was a shortage of new cars. (There was a glut in 2020, makers cut back & found it harder than expected to ramp up). Makers pushed prices us and have tried to keep list prices up there. A base Corsa in 2019 was £13,500, inflation adjusted that equates to £16,800 today (I used the Bank of England inflation calculator to work it out). Vauxhall and many other list prices are (and have been for a long time) absurd. A correction is coming - we will see new base model and trim names with lower price tags to obsure the price cuts. Getting rid of the stock backlog is going to be difficult for the car makers, this will impact everyone. You could say that Tesla have been more transparrent with their pricing, cutting prices and investment for some time now. But they will be impacted just like everyone else. There is more supply than there is demand at current prices.

[@davetakesiton]

True Duncan, but I don't see Tesla being affected the same. It is different if you have a number of models made last week unsold and you discount them in real time to move them on quickly, as Tesla does. Legacy have shed loads of last year's models already discounted and still not selling. How much does a 2 year old brand new car have to drop to make it appealing? Add in that when Tesla drops, it ,merely knocks their profit back a bit. If legacy is already losing money on every single EV sold, dropping the price just makes the loss greater.

[@capnkirk5528]

@@davetakesiton In support of Dave, I have been following this stuff for a LONG time (because Covid left me disabled, retired early and unable to do anything else - and yes I'm bitter AF about it). I was following Tesla in 2017 when I got my first ride in a Model S. And could see where it COULD go if the OEMs didn't stop it. (They tried). Except for the battery cost, you could build a BETTER Mitsubishi Mirage as an EV for 15K Euros retail. (Removing the engine, transmission, exhaust, fuel system, assorted electronics associated with engine like OBD etc. will save way more than the cost of a 100kw electric motor and reduction gears - no transmission needed). A 40 kwh battery from CATL would cost another 3200 Euros plus 800 Euros for a (licensed from somebody, Nissan would be a good choice) traction electronics system. So Mitsubishi could take an existing sub-compact and, without a great deal of engineering and virtually NO development. I'm certainly NOT the only one who can look at this and go "Yes, it would work" - although apparently this talent is rare. PLEASE don't tell me I don't understand the complexity - all that tells me is YOU don't ... that sonofabitch Elon does though.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

@@capnkirk5528 - you are correct that an EV shouldn't be attract a price premium as the car is more simply and lower cost to make. The platform argument doesn't really differentiate, it can be more expensive to re-engineer an existing platform than design a new one from scratch, but either way this should not drive the car price up that much on a per unit basis, even the R&D and model testing costs factored in. Same with the early adopter argument that cars are offered with high spec premium features to attract new buyers to adopt the technology early, this was the case a few years back but not now as we're into the early majority market now. Also, many of the features offered, particularly safety orientated ones, have been standardised and passed down into lower cost models (driven by higher NCAP standards for example). In short, they automakers have simply tried to extend the higher EV premium price into the early adopter market to maximise profit, plus de-risking their exposure should uptake falter. However, the Chinese brands have called the legacy automakers bluff and exposed the premium EV pricing model as the lie it always was. The automakers have also created a rod for their own back as buyers are now holding back from comiting to either ICE or EV purchases (except BiK EV purchases), waiting for prices in one or both segments to drop.

[@capnkirk5528]

@@GruffSillyGoat Very well said! If Chinese EVs come to the US, the auto market will collapse - and there will be a HUGE amount of turmoil. I believe that's called a "free market", or "capitalism" or some such dogmatic name, and it terrifies the US Republicans.

[@johnalbinson4641]

Very informative. Thanks!

[@DrDave_63395]

Dave I’ve just watched this video for the second time. Your comment about unsold cars at dealers is also the subject of several Podcasts covering the North American market. They report dealers often have ‘new’ cars of models spanning multiple years.Can this really be the case a dealer would accept from the manufacturer say a 2024 model when they have a lot full of the 2022 model?

[@Cotictimmy]

Interesting video, there’s really fascinating stuff going on. We’ve got a close EV equivalent of the 2008 Financial Crash happening right now. Back then it became apparent that the Collateralised Debt Obligations (clever financial engineering products created by banks & full of home loans) were worthless. Like now, everyone tried to hide it at first & then rushed to dump them as fast as possible. It’s the same phenomenon again, but with EVs instead of CDOs. See ‘The Big Short’ & ‘Margin Call’.

[@jasonmugridge]

Both great movies. Its not just EV's though, its cars in general. They've been making too many for 20+ years. EV's just make things worse for legacy as they lose money on everyone they make, and steals a sale from a profitable ICE model, plus they make less money on servicing them. Add in the competition from the Chinese manufactures and things are not looking at all good.

[@Trashed20659]

Got my new EV for $10,000 below list price. Used Consumer Reports' car buying service and took advantage of $7,500 rebate from Hyundai.

[@BMWHP2]

Thanks Dave, Our new Dutch government is totally anti electricity, windmills, solarpanels, heatpumps and EV's. The EV buyers get no subsidies anymore, and even get a very expansive "fine" in weight tax, making the EV even more dearer. Now, a petrol car is mutch cheaper in road tax than a EV. The Citroën C3 1.2 Petrol is €556 road tax per year and the ë-C3 EV version is €864 road tax per year. For comparison to the prices in the UK, a 5 year lease at 15.000 km per year, the Citroën ë-C3 Max will cost you €450 per month . . .

[@davetakesiton]

do what we did, get a new government

[@capnkirk5528]

So your government was "bought"? Seems to happen in most democracies ...

[@rogerphelps9939]

That won't last. Just wait till rising sea levels spill over the dikes.

[@MilesV8]

Sounds good. I wish the new UK government was anti electric, wind turbines, heatpumps and EVs. Consider yourself very lucky.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Just wait until the sea goes over the dikes and major floods occur. The cause will be global warming and this dutch government will be cursed. It is that simple.

[@stevecoinitin7521]

Good video, full of info. I have no idea if the UK Gov set the guideline for cars makers to sell 22% as EV's, if both parties came to that number under Gov duress, or another way? It does seem fairly obvious to me, with car makers needing to gear up to make EV's to fall inline, around a period of sales starting to faulter, they had a stretched budget, which may well explain the not so good Euro EV's and the growing unreliability of Petrol/Diesel cars. If the Euro Gov's hadn't pushed this on them, we may have seen Euro EV's still coming out (maybe a few years later), but maybe in better shape? Also, the Petrol/Diesels may have been more reliable albeit the wet sump belt craziness that some makers fell for! I might talking a bit out of my rear here, but that's what it seems like.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

The 22% can be accounted for in many ways, it's a marketable credit based system similar in structure to carbon credits. Automakers can: borrow (share out EV credits from other brands under thier umbrella); trade (buy credits) from other automakers (particularly EV only ones, who have 78% spare credits in their sales ledgers); call forward from projected future EV sales in the following year (although with an inflationary penalty on next years target); extend the year (till February next year) to account in this year; or simply pay the penalties (which some low volume premium marques are deciding to do). The car makers asked for the target to be a soft guideline, in it's first year, the (previous) government dediced to hard-ball the issue and make the target a real one with teeth. It seem the automakers knew last year they wouldn't hit the target, so perhaps the pre-reg approach was the method dreamt up to mitigate it's impact. However, it seems to have got out of hand as the automakers fell to financial shareholder pressure to sell cars of all fuel types so ended up pre--registering a bunch of ICE cars as well at the same time so defeating the use of this method as a way to mitigate the ZEV mandate.

[@TomAtkins1912]

Two years ago I bought a hybrid Lexus as my retirement car. Great car, can't knock it but after purchasing a used MG5 pure electric I now wish I had bought the BZ Toyota! Advice: When you test drive an EV - firstly FORGET it is an EV. Just mark its card on ride quality, quietness and road manners. They top most ICE cars. Then after you have bought the EV on that basis alone you get the icing on the cake! Very cheap running costs! It really is a no brainer. Just my view after owning the MG5. Buy a used EV and you will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[@CEUOTC]

I also recently picked up a 72 plate MG5 FL LR Trophy at a bargain price, a few cosmetic scuffs, however a fantastic piece of kit. Would never have bought it at the original list price, however for under 15k, more than happy|

[@mblake0420]

Upfront, just wait, cost sandwich comes later

[@TomAtkins1912]

@@mblake0420 You could be right. The long term reliability and expense is unknown. The Jury is still out!

[@ironhorse1074]

Allegedly, replacement parts for the Chinese EV’s are already causing serious problems, and knocking on to courtesy car availability, according to a local insurance-approved repair shop.

[@vannicrider7953]

Utterly fascinating but shocking video

[@JohnJones-ri7pi]

This is really really interesting Dave, thank you So is the core problem that the car industry as a whole (ICE, EV, everything in between) is simply manufacturing significantly more of everything than there is demand for at the moment?

[@paulc6766]

Overcapacity in the West?

[@JohnJones-ri7pi]

@@paulc6766 everywhere, just that legacy auto is also contending with fines for ICE cars

[@jasonmugridge]

And have been doing so for at least the last 20 years

[@colinrobinson7869]

Dave you ,please, need to talk to your local MP on this to get to talk on a select committee in the house of commons. Well done for putting you neck on the block and calling out the auto industry as we can see by walking around the block where you or I may live there is not many new cars out there.

[@martinsepion]

Great work Dave.

[@chrisgoebel8867]

Even here in South Africa, this is true.

[@foxylady1048]

It’s a wonder the retailers have not been done for this underhanded business. Let’s see the switch to the Tesla mode take off and get these people out.

[@stevenbarrett7648]

@foxylady1048 yes I wonder why?

[@TKevinBlanc]

I'm scratching my head over the idea that the number plate is so meaningful. The car has a VIN plate and a title and registration.

[@benholroyd5221]

the number plate comes when you register the vehicle. when you register the vehicle you have to pay tax, and mots start from when its registered (I believe)

[@philipjones3599]

Simple reason is an increasingly small number of people are rich enough to buy new cars. The only ones that can afford to are disabled or company which in effect ammounts to tax being spent on cars or tax being avoided on cars. The issue is price firstly but also I feel the understanding of buyers who aren't in these 2 groups that they are getting shafted to buy new hence why the average age of cars is rapidly ageing. I have spotted another fishy thing near me. My next door nehbour over is a car salesman and ive noticed he now has 2 nearly new evs. This is no coincidence in my mind.

[@jsanders100]

Trouble with this is it puts me off buying any new car because they’re going to be cheaper soon

[@Paul99T]

Then you should wait and see what happens.

[@David-bl1bt]

​@@Paul99T....and pray that you dont die in the meanwhile!

[@Paul99T]

@@David-bl1bt what an absolutely meaningless response. If I die in the meantime I'll have saved money. Some people might be sad about though. Particularly the leasing company I got my car from.

[@ianblyth8760]

I had to pause the video while I went to go and get my sunglasses.

[@fluxfieldshow]

Buying an EV has saved me $2,000 per year on gas alone. Not to mention oil changes, brakes, spark plugs, etc. etc.

[@STPOBB]

ive been looking to buy a corsa e for a while. two occasions now. ive been into the dealer. over 1 year. on both occasions. it was cheaper to buy a new ev over a second hand one 2 years old. on pcp. but cheaper still to buy an ICE new. with the new ev at 38k. 2nd hand at 13k. and ice at 18k.

[@markrowland1366]

This is why no one ever bought a computer. There was always a better one coming. One famous example was closed as it's promised upgraded model was held up.

[@JimmyOKennedy]

Thanks, yes you are brave 🙂

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Manipulating sales via pre-reg is not new, Petrol cars faced similar with the diesel bubble, before and directly leading to dieselgate, a number of years back as their sales tanked as incentives favoured the sales of diesels. Manufacturers were caught on the hoof over producing petrol cars as they had been preferred prior to the incentives kicking in, so sought to bouy up their sales figures via pre-reging the glut of petrol cars on the market.

[@freddydad1]

Interesting. I didn't know any of this

[@johniooi3954]

They have been doing this for years. But now pre reg to avoid the fines, is going to get harder & harder, as they need to do this for more cars each year. This is a Ponzi effect. At some point, no new cash is forth coming & the whole Ponzi fails. If people thought the banking crash was bad. If this does happen. It is going to lead to stock market melt down, bankrupt (not that they are not anyway) governments around the world. The 30's depression will be like a summer festival compared to what can happen.

[@99346447]

I’ll have a «P» please Bob.

[@S0me0ne_S0meWhere_SaysHi]

Glad dodgy dealings are being exposed. It's overdue! Much like quantitative easing. It never actually solves an issue. If all legacy dealers cut out dealerships tomorrow and dealt directly with the customer then I think that would be far better (I think). BUT the ability to see with ones own eyes and test drive a model must still remain. People like to see what they get when spending thousands on a product. I certainly do anyhow.

[@maxflight777]

Car sales ? I’m baffled now.. I thought you’d been a Navy helicopter pilot ? Am I wrong ? best wishes Dave

[@malcym3394]

Good one Dave!

[@antwnpowell]

I wonder if the UK will follow the EU in imposing extra tariffs on Chinese cars? If they don't , all cars sold in the UK will be Chinese made because they are better and much cheaper. Or will they do what Canada did, and impose the same tariff as their neighbours?

[@TheLDunn1]

Talking about different industries….there is something ‘odd’ that I’ve recently noticed in the photographic camera world - the ‘grey import’. Grey imports are products not originally intended for the UK being offered for sale in the UK. The downside is that the manufacturer may not honour the warranty of a non Uk model in the UK, and may even refuse to repair it at a cost. The upside is that they are cheaper. They have existed for years, and in the past you could save a few hundred pounds. The ‘odd’ thing I’ve recently noticed is the size of the discount. For example, a UK Sony A9iii model is around £6000, but grey imports of exactly the same model can be had for under £4000. I’ve never before seen such a huge percentage discount on grey imports, which makes me wonder ‘what’s going on’.

[@jasonmugridge]

Rip off Britain, thats whats going on. We've been fleeced for years. VW are currently selling new ID3's in China for £12,000. Now you can't tell me the labour is that much cheaper, or maybe its the Chinese government subsidising VW by £20,000 for each unit!!!

[@FFVoyager]

This has been going on for as long as I can remember - in the 80's I remember stories in the press of Olympus certainly (and perhaps others) refusing to repair new cameras bought from discount shops in the UK (Tottenham Court Road at the time was a centre of this scandal)

[@TheLDunn1]

@@FFVoyager yeah, I agree, it has. What seems different to me now though is the size of the discount you can get on a grey import. On a camera with a normal price over £6k, you can get a grey market model for under £4k. That’s a huge difference whichever way you look at it. If multiple companies are able to sell a grey import model for £4k or less, but all the normal Uk photographic outlets are selling the same model for £6k or over, then something ‘odd’ is going on. A few hundred pounds difference is more normal for grey import vs UK models, not a few thousand.

[@FFVoyager]

@@TheLDunn1 a lot is to do with the £v ¥ exchange rate and the ease of shipping from country to country. A few years ago I picked up bunch of new L mount Panasonic lenses at Bic Camera in Tokyo, got them at a tax-free export price (not so much in Japan IIRC it was a 5% reduction) but the difference in price between here and there more than paid for my flight costs!

[@TheLDunn1]

@@FFVoyager I suspect that you didn’t pay import duty & VAT when you brought those lenses back into the UK, that is where you big saving (albeit illegal - I’m not judging you on that though!) was. The companies offering grey import cameras (& lenses) in the UK currently would have had to declare them and day import duty & VAT on them. There is a difference I think.

[@edword7195]

if there was a charger on every street and you could enter your unique number and you were billed from the company you had an agreement with it may work. When you change electricity providers you don't change your wires. If EV were all like smart meter you then enter your code and get charged your rate this would be competitive and no matter where charged or what street parked in you enter code your price. The company's selling the deals would then compete on price like home power. If the government put these smart car meters on every street then no matter where parked you could use and everyone would want an EV its home only charging thing that is causing some delays as many houses have no chartering. The non house ones are expensive and inconvenient. You was on every street you could park car then leave your car until want to go somewhere just like a home chargers and also help people away from home with a charger.

[@Donncada1]

What should I buy Dave? What should I do with my 2022 MG4?

[@GreenDriveIndia]

What’s problem with MG4

[@Donncada1]

@@GreenDriveIndia None but the market is about to change and I want to do the smart financial thing.

[@GreenDriveIndia]

@@Donncada1 is ur monthly driving kms are not much ?

[@MarkChilds]

So what's the advice for someone in the market for an EV? Wait or look for one of these bargins?

[@SusanClarke-o5q]

Using the list price as the basis for the Luxury Car Tax is clearly a house of cards. I don't object to higher value vehicles being charged more than budget smaller models - that is called progressive taxation, but it should be based on a true value at the time of purchase.

[@charleswillcock3235]

I am not sure the pricing of cars is a scandal. Price is set by supply and demand. I guess the issue is manufacturers are trying to pretend their prices are realistic when in reality some owners have not been impressed by their purchases which they have then shared and that has polluted the market especially for certain brands of EVs. For me the takeaway from this is if you want an EV then shop around and offer a very low price as not many brands are selling their cars at list price. As mentioned this has been going on almost since car manufacturing began. In summary not all brands are equal - my guess is a Tesla either new or second hand is going to be your best bet. If you do not like its CEO hold your nose, while you make the purchase.

[@2jspencer]

We must be very sensible in New Zealand! You can't tell how old a car is from the license plate! You will have to walk over to the car and look at the very small registration document in the window to see when it was registered. No one cares here and there isn't that number plate snobbery that you get in the UK (I'm an exPat of the UK).

[@paulc6766]

Australia same.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

The UK has used a plate instead of a piece of paper since the 1963, which has positives (such as detecting fake number plates). The UK used one plate for all new car registrations per year till it went to two-registrations a year in 2002. This change wasn't meant to be for sales reasons but to extend the number scheme lifetime from 21 years (that had already been had to be redone twice since the 1950's) to 50 years (using two digits), whilst ensuring enough new registration plate numbers where available in each year (supporting upto 7 million cars registered every six months). However, the dealers/automakers sized upon the opportunity to create two sales peaks in the year rather than one, hence the current situation of two stall periods each year as a new plate change month comes around.

[@cloudyskies1323]

Many of the those 17-20 have no interest in driving never mind owning a car.

[@walteradamsbe]

Hi Dave, Great video and analysis. I'm assuming this is a UK-only story or are other European governments also penalizing car manufacturers with fines when they haven't sold enough EVs at the end of the year?

[@paulc6766]

US too, see many YT videos about the same thing.

[@jasonmugridge]

I think it started when we were still in the EU so is a European thing. I believe this is why VW pushed the ID3 out before they were ready as otherwise the fines would of been astronomical.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

The mandate in this form with phased targets and penalties is a UK thing, although similar exists in California and China, but the UK approach is being considered by the EU (which have a 2030/2035 target date for phase out, also adopted in the UK). However, the issue isn't UK specific as it's occuring in other territories even where a mandate isn't in place. The core issue is legacy automakers have attempted to make EVs a premium choice, poketing the profits from their lower manufacturing costs. But the bubble has burst with EV only automakers offering more cost effective or better value for money EVs. This has put buyers off from purchasing EVs in volume (other than where tax advatages can be held, company car/fleet sales) as potential buyers are waiting for the prices to drop or new cheaper/better value models to enter the market. It has also impacted ICE sales, as buyers are not committing to these purchases either recognising that these car will be displaced by EVs with the cars lifetime, and that cheaper/higher value options are likely forthcomming. Automakers have tried to bouy up the new car sales market with very low loan/PCP deals and incentives, but this only attracts a subset of buyers. However, used EV sales (particularly with the nearly new stock) have shot up 53% in the UK, and seem similar rises in Europe as well. The dealers are targetting cash used car buyers using high (12%+) rates to disincentivise used loan/PCP purchases (so as not to erode the new car PCP market).

[@nazimulucay3137]

Legacy auto sold same car with a different batch with a different price tag. People don’t buy it anymore.

[@kalex381]

Is the 22% min EV sales only for UK? Can’t remember seeing similar in Europe or US? Can’t see how pre-registered cars is such a big scandal for customers? Pre registered cars will lose value if they sit on the lo for too long, so most likely dealers or manufacturers will get screwed but not the customers…for me the biggest scandal in the uk is the cost of charging an EV…at home it can be as low as 7p per kWh but at public chargers can be up to 85p per kWh for the same …why the consumer should should pay 11/12 times for electricity because he does not have the option to charge at home..? This is what the government wants to promote? Once my current deal expires I am back to an ICE..this EV market is totally manipulated to screw the consumers..

[@benholroyd5221]

Why is this a scandal? its adding evs to the market at a lower cost. If they were being sent back to the manufacturer as 'parts' and getting resold, that would be a scandal, if a company wants to pre register 1000s of vehicles and then sell them cheaper, that seems like a win.

[@martincharnley6143]

Why do you think my local Nissan dealer has sent me 4 emails and 2 texts asking to buy my 4 year old Leaf? It doesn’t quite make sense to me.

[@brianevans8127]

Hi Dave legacy auto do you include Hyundai/Kia as well as Western and Japanese manufacturers? I am looking to changing my car in about 12 months time it will be interesting to see what the market is then. Cheers

[@davetakesiton]

Yes Brian, legacy in my definition is anyone who previously or currently made ICE and hybrid cars and still sells them alongside their EVs. Usually they are in the same body shell.

[@JasonKnott-p8x]

We on motability scheme and i wanted to know who thinks of the advinced payment as most people on the scheme or on benefits so how can they say they helpping us when the advince payments r £1200 or more please can u help as we r thinking of getting the ioniq 5 2025 model

[@brandonsheffield9873]

My ICE pick up truck is my life blood, hundreds of miles every day with my work trailer. It also moon lights as our family vehicle when I'm not working (typically sundays). Sure it can charge at home, but how do I charge it when I'm supposed to be working (which involves my truck and my trailer filled with equipment and tools). These places don't have on sight chargers. EVs are fine for the city slickers, but us working men. EVs are fine for those males that sip on lattes and wear silk to the office.

[@FFVoyager]

🤔 isn't pre-registering EV's to avoid financial penalties and then selling them at a discount rather a good benefit for the private buyer?

[@lesliecarter4295]

ZEV mandate has driven this scam only in the UK..?

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Nope, it's happening in many countries. The core issue is the pricing the automakers adopted for EVs, trying to treat them as a premium but pocketing the savings from their lower production costs. This has caused the mass market buyer to hestiate buying new EVs as initially too expensive, then realising the prices are artificial. It also hold back the purchasing of ICE cars as buyers know they will be replaced at some point within the lifetime of the car. The Chinese makers have drawn a lens to the issue, demonstrating that EV's can be made and sold at lower cost.

[@quartytypo]

EVs are the first car in automotive history to be a political creation.

[@brandonsheffield9873]

I've driven an EV, I dont like them, way too quiet. I have tinnitus, and silence is my enemy. I dont listen to radio, it's all rubbish these days. I prefer to hear my pickup trucks engine, the wind and noise of the open road.

[@billpugh58]

Spotify?

[@mikadavies660]

Stellantis loosing 45% of their profits, give a strong nod to this type of corruption.

[@Brian-om2hh]

losing..... Only one letter O in losing....

[@mikadavies660]

@@Brian-om2hh So you have so much free time in your life that you correct a typo ..... Nice. I work 14 and 16hrs a day in construction . I would love so much free time. Your a lucky man

[@maxflight777]

Buy TSLA shares !

[@antoniopalmero4063]

There definitely bargains if you don’t mind pre registered .

[@edwyncorteen1527]

Imagine how many ICE cars and EVs will be pre-regged next March to avoid the five years of "Luxury car" road tax? More bargains!

[@steveparlow7322]

Don't wish to bust the bubble but the RFT Luxury car tax applies to any £40k+ EV registered after last day March 2017 so its a "catch-all".

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Not just EVs thr expensive car VED suppliment also applies to ICE cars whose msrp (including any added options) is over £40k.

[@steveparlow7322]

@@GruffSillyGoat Indeed it does and my wallet feels it. Just sold one of those "luxury" cars. £300 running costs plus £900 depreciation per month so that's £14,400 to cover just 4,000 miles per year or £3.60 per mile!

[@edwyncorteen1527]

@@steveparlow7322 indeed, that is why any unsold EVs will be registered!

[@gerbenkarman3372]

I don't get it, how can there be double sales figures on a car? Once it is produced or imported it needs a license plate to be able to drive on the road. You only get a license plate when you register it with the government (that's when you start paying taxes on that car). The government stores all the details of that car in its database. Once the car is scrapped or exported the license plate is revoked, and the car is no longer taxed. With a single click, the government has an overview of all cars on the road (Weight size, brand, motor type, every nitty gritty detail). The new additions in the database show how many new cars a certain brand has sold (added to the car fleet in the country). In the database, you obviously also keep track if the car for which the new license plate is issued is a brand new car or an imported used car. There is no way you can double numbers

[@davetakesiton]

A very simplistic view. In fact the government has little idea how many cars are on the road. All the legacy auto release their own sales figures each month, quarter and year as part of their financial statements. All hold press conferences to explain them and take questions. The press and stock markets use these numbers to indicate the success or failure of the company performance vs expectation which then affects the stock price. There are therefore two distinct and separate numbers; the sales declared by legacy auto to the press; and the numbers registered with DVLA for use on the road. But of course, those pre-registered have never been used on the roads and many never will. Should these be included if they are parked up, locked up, uninsured in a dealer car park?

[@gerbenkarman3372]

@@davetakesiton To be honest I’m shocked to learn that the UK government does not know how many cars are on the road. Coming from the Netherlands the government exactly knows how many cars are on the road, including all possible details of that car. It uses this central database to collect taxes and send fines. All cars must be registered and will only then be given a licence plate. Driving without a licence plate will cause your car to get confiscated same for driving with a fake one. The database is even publicly available if you google for ‘rdw kentekencheck’ you will get to a website where you can enter any Dutch licence plate and you will find all details about this car (the ownership details are not made visible because of privacy reasons) but it does show how many previous owners it has had.

[@matthewtyler-jones8317]

So, your thumbnail features a VW. I am sure you know better than me, but this year I have been in the market for a VAG car, a Skoda Enyaq, and before that looked (not that seriously) at a VW ID Buzz. In both cases we were told we were not dealing with the dealers any more, but directly with VW. The dealers were mean agents, handling the paperwork of a sale directly with VW (or VW finance). So I am not convinced this sell the to sit of dealer’s lots scam is currently being practiced by VW. Indeed, this started in early spring, when my company was being a bot to successful and I wanted to buy a car before the company year end. But there were no pre-registration stock, or indeed ANY stock available. An Enyaq similar to the one I wanted was said to be in Germany, and was expected to arrive in the UK before my year end so I ordered that one, but it didn't arrive in time and so I cancelled the order, took the hit on tax corporation tax and ordered exactly what I wanted. Actually the delivery date on that kept getting pushed back, so when I saw a coming stock car that was everything I wanted but a different colour. I asked the dealership to change my order to that one, which I am now happily driving. (Oh and it arrived in the last week of August. The dealer assumed I would want it in September, but I sad I wanted to register it in August so I could drive it on my holiday to Cornwall, starting on the 30th) The only preregistration ones I was at all interested that were available were MGs. But aren’t the Chinese? I thought the Chinese manufacturers didn't do pre-reg?

[@davetakesiton]

VW have a good number of ID3 and ID4 on Autotrader as pre-registered and several 2023 models on 73 plates. makes you wonder what they are up to. On a recent visit to Swansea they had large stickers in the windows stating they could not supply the showroom models until they had replaced them with new models from the factory. How does that work?

[@matthewtyler-jones8317]

@@davetakesiton weird! I must admit I wasn’t looking at the ID models. They feel so cheap compared to the Skoda (how the mighty have fallen)

[@matthewtyler-jones8317]

@@davetakesiton I guess this agency model may be a new thing? It appeared to disincentivise actual service from the first dealer I tried to work with (Lookers) when I was buying in April/May

[@TheLDunn1]

China, the largest single car market now has over 50% car sales as EV’s. China also generate more than 50% of its electricity from coal fired power stations - one of the most polluting ways to generate electricity.

[@johndinsdale1707]

If you believe any 'official' data coming out of China to be a 'true picture' , I have some flying pigs to sell you.

[@jasonmugridge]

You might want to take a closer look at China, most of their consumer energy needs are already met by renewables, the coal fired power stations are mainly for the factories to make all the stuff for us, and even these they are looking to phase out.

[@johnbridger5629]

According to Google they also have the largest wind farm and largest solar farm in the world. According to Ember (an energy think tank) the problem in China was the growth in demand outstripping the growth in renewables. They estimate that the growth in demand will slow whilst the growth in renewables continues meaning that the percentage of generation from fossil fuels will begin to decrease.

[@Muppetkeeper]

1. China installed more renewable power in 2023 than existed on the whole planet in 2022. 2. An EV driven on 100% coal fired electricity is still cleaner than most petrol cars 3. If you are scared of change, it will destroy you, so stop spouting old facts.

[@anthonybrown4874]

To be fair the cars are much much cheaper to buy not that we will ever see such largesse It's probably the extreme competition and a few are likelybto fail at some point if they cannot export excess production hence tariffs that are applied to effectively subsidised vehicles.

[@stukaseptember]

You are entirely correct but the blame needs to be firmly placed at the feet of the government. Instead of trying to force the issue with a stick approach would it not have been better to say add a £10,000 sales tax onto every new ICE vehicle and then use that as a subsidy to people buying a new EV? The treasury could even split it so that they kept say £3000 to offset the loss in fuel duty with the remaining £7000 coming off the price of the new EV. In this way market forces would dictate when EV's eventually replaced ICE vehicles and not the government. A more carrot approach. You are allowed to buy ICE cars in China if you wish but registering them costs a small fortune compared to an EV, and that appears to be working for them. It's the same in all things. As soon as the government brings out the big stick everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

[@kensmith8701]

This is nothing new. Car sales new and second hand have always been open to charge as much as you can. Most dealerships are franchise. The manufacturer is not part of the dealer negotiating or variation in the amount squeezed from the customer. Most pressure comes from the finance companies. Many dealers have gone and continue to decline. As long as warranty and service work is required then dealerships will be there. Having a showroom attached is still viable. Many manufacturers no longer sell at site but via website. Most vehicles are made to order, the days of having loads of new vehicles in stock have gone. Yes, some dealer stock is required. There is a lot of transition going on and it is difficult to predict the outcome. All manufacturers are at risk including non legacy. Manufacturers are there to make a profit, as is everyone one else in the chain. Even Dave.

[@briangriffiths1285]

The EV sales pitch has the burden of 30 minutes to charge from 20-80% holding it back. When the range of most cars is 200-250 miles the need to spend time at the toilet is longer than it takes to recharge the car unless you are doing a 350 mile plus journey. The unthinking public just don’t get it.

[@davetakesiton]

We who have and drive EVs absolutely get it. You with your fake theories and outright lies will one day when u you open your mind

[@ArifGhostwriter]

What are you meaning by 'legacy' auto manufacturers? Manufacturers who no longer exist?

[@mikesmith71]

I'll have a "P" please Dave. 🧑‍💻

[@adrianflower3230]

Drop the Mic!

[@rontheoracle]

MSRP a.k.a. manufacturer's scammed retail price

[@peterjones6640]

At this rate to dispose of the cars they will be giving them away.

[@Brian-om2hh]

Well It's never happened before.....

[@destrozar]

They could be free and I still wouldn't want one as they stand now

[@BGS_123]

It's Dave from Dave Rants On 😂

[@justeatingbigmacs]

i’m sure Tesla hits the target of 22% must be electric car

[@ScrappyDoodad]

The ICE design is badly flawed and it cannot be rengineered The only thing that can be done is to continue to throw a bunch of systems and components to overcome the inherent deficiencies of the ICE design Under the hood of an ICE vehicles is dozens of systems of systems, so much that the actual engine cannot be seen because it is buried deep in over complex bunch of fixes The electric motor doesn't need any fixes, it only needs a handful of supporting components and it's more dependable, efficient, has more performance, need no maintenance, smaller, lighter, environmentally friendly and more The charging infrastructure and battery is the weak point of EVs, However, the infrastructure is growing fast and the battery is good enough for the average drivers and especially home owners