How Evil was Empire? | Professor Nigel Biggar

Professor Nigel Biggar questions the narrative that empires were entirely, or even largely, evil, pointing to the atrocities of nation states and the successes of some empires historically.
Link to the full conversation: • The British Empire | N...
Nigel John Biggar CBE is Regius Professor of Moral and Pastoral Theology at the University of Oxford, author, Anglican priest, and theologian. He also directs the McDonald Centre for Theology, Ethics and Public Life at Oxford which aims to foster a conversation between Christian theology and other disciplines.
In 2017, Biggar initiated the Oxford project “Ethics and Empire” which aimed to scrutinise a purely negative view of empires and argue that they were morally mixed. Historians and academics widely criticised the project for 'attempting to balance out the violence committed in the name of empire with its supposed benefits.'
Recently, Nigel published What’s Wrong with Rights? arguing that society’s modern rights conversation reduces the importance of fostering civic virtues.
Nigel delivered the 2022 Roger Scruton Memorial Lecture, entitled On Deconstructing Decolonisation. Link: • Scruton Lectures 2022 ...
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[@stacyliddell5038]

It's truly bizarre to think that there are people out there that view the world in zeros and ones. The truth is always more nuanced than that. It is complex.

[@robertholland7558]

The truth is complex indeed, well beyond the human comprehension and understanding. Sadly most refuse to acknowledge that!

[@birchlover3377]

In my web wanderings, I once read a fascinating blog post by an Aboriginal Australian who no longer avails herself of preference hiring or simialar aid. She stated that as regrettable as some events were, colonialism propelled her people very quickly from the Stone Age to the Modern Era. Wish I had bookmarked it. One never hears alternative opinions like those.

[@paulwary]

I would say there is no question that the arrival of the British was an unmitigated disaster for the aborigines. Disease, dispossession, massacres, culture shock, alcohol. But the real question in my mind is whether any *reasonable* person can see how it could have been otherwise. The British were the kindest of the imperialists of that era, AFAIK.

[@28pbtkh23]

A few years back, there was a visit to Australia by someone on the Royal Yacht Britannia. It could have been a visit by Charles and Di, or one of the visits by the Queen. On the news that evening in Britain, there was an item about some Aborigines who roared out in a motor boat to meet the royal yacht and complain about the British ever having arrived in Oz, and about the injustices that the British have inflicted upon the aborigines over many years. What an irony that people who were living in the Stone Age when we first encountered them had become sufficiently developed to not just operate a marvel of western technology, but also wealthy enough to own the boat.

[@andyrwebman]

@@paulwary Ask what life must have been like before that. Mass disease, early mortality etc. The aborigines had been in Australia for around 60,000 years, but had not filled up the country. To see why that means a massive mortality rate, we can make some estimates of what population growth rates would be in the absence of high infant and child mortality. Let's imagine - extremely conservatively - that the time between generations is 25 years, and each couple has 3 children. This means that the size of the breeding population increases by a factor of 1.5 each generation. The number of generations would be 60,000/25 = 2400. Without early mortality, we would get a factor of 1.5 to the power of 2400 - a truly colossal number of the order of 10 to the power of 422. Clearly, this didn't happen. And it's reasonable to assume that aboriginal couples would have frequently had up to 6 children - this would be comparable to medieval England. 6 children per couple, and the population grew extremely slowly. That means 2/3 of people die young before they've had a chance to reproduce. Nature itself is a more cruel oppressor than Empire ever could be. It's only modern technology that spares us from nature's pitiless and continuous holocaust.

[@paulwary]

@@andyrwebman You could apply your argument equally to ANY part of the world, and conclude that any grievance that any group has against any other is immaterial, because 'nature is a crueler mistress'. Clearly, it's a fallacious argument. Your numbers are (obviously!) wildly off, and yet you seem to expect us to take them seriously. People don't breed like bacteria, and in any case numbers would be limited by food supply long, long before your fanciful exponential projections. You dont see those numbers in ANY part of the world, and yet you seem comfortable applying them to pre-colonial Australia. Yes, infant mortality could be expected to be high. Yes, we could expect each woman to have birthed a larger number of children to compensate. But none of this is an argument against the fact that european arrival was a disaster for the Aboriginals. Several diseases which Aborigines had never been exposed to decimated their population - a population which, we seem to agree, was not large to begin with, and therefore unable to cope with the onslaught. Add to that the usurpation of their land, cultural dislocation, and in many documented cases, wholesale slaughter. I dont think anyone should make light of what happened, because clearly it was disastrous. I do think it's reasonable to ask however 'could it have been otherwise?'.

[@stevecrane6163]

The fact that people from the former British-English speaking empire have the ability to voice such negative views about it with impunity... ipso facto prove it had at least one good point! Free speech. It had many more - parliamentary democracy, abolition of slavery....

[@CasperLabuschagne]

Those living in ex-British colonies (as I do) should thank their lucky stars that the were colonised by Britain and not France, Germany, Portugal, Spain or especially Belgium. British colonisation had a strong humanitarian aspect to it and for the most part did not forcefully follow a rigid policy of replacing indigenous language and culture with European culture and English as the only language. Even the imposed British legal system contained a strong element of accommodating indigenous law.

[@robertholland7558]

Funny how the great majority of the so-called British colonies were first “settled” by the Dutch! New York for example was original new Amsterdam!

[@Christian___]

This is true, but British colonies have also done better than most countries that were never colonised, including the majority of European countries.

[@Christian___]

@@robertholland7558 Are you claiming that the language, culture and legal traditions of these former colonies are actually Dutch, and nothing to do with the British?

[@robertholland7558]

@@Christian___ yes and no

[@robertholland7558]

@@Christian___ better, or differently? Is the apple better then the orange?

[@markgrissom]

I am a retired US Marine with a birds eye view and knowledge of history. Enough to realize that the Brits have nothing to apologize for, in comparison to all others . The Judeo-Christian British "Empire" has done more to civilize the world than any culture and society before and since. The Empire is a direct benefactor to the USA. All things that make the US great come from Great Britain. Our founding fathers just codified it in greater detail with our Declaration and Constitution.

[@Christian___]

It's good to hear this from an American; some work is needed in the nations of the British world to raise awareness of our shared history, culture and values--know that I grew up being taught to respect the men who stormed the beaches at Normandy alongside us, and the nation who put a man on the moon. I'm sure you're aware, but after the US invaded British North America and burned and looted York/Toronto, the British sent a punitive expedition of Peninsular War veterans to capture Washington D.C.; they razed all the municipal buildings, including the Whitehouse, but they left the US Marine Corps barracks intact out of respect for the Corps, who were the only defenders that ignored the order to retreat and stood their ground--we thought them gentlemen!

[@markgrissom]

@@Christian___ No, I was not aware, or had forgotten, all the details of what we in the US called the war of 1812. Thank You! I graduated the officer basic school in 1989. During this training we were led in our morning physical training warmup sessions by a British Royal Marine Color Sergeant. He could run like the wind, and had an incredible military bearing which was quite motivating. I don't know if it is the case anymore, but we were taught to be proud descendants of the Royal Marines. During the first Gulf War while assigned to 10th Marines I was tasked with attaching small communications teams to a British Army unit who were at are flank. Great guys all, but I don't remember the unit.

[@baddog6003]

But the British Empire was Christian, not Jewish. This Judeo-Christian term is annoying and it only came about recently in American politics. Judaism is NOT Christianity and Christianity is NOT Judaism. They're very much opposed to one another and always will be.

[@jeffreyrodrigoecheverria2613]

Genocide was good, LOL, get lost anglo and go apologize to Rome.

[@banta-pd8zj]

Anderson, the emcee who continues to play "The March of the Colonised Mind", a fond favourite amongst a particular sort of Australian. You'd be forgiven if you mistook that tune to be about intestinal fortitude, but it's not. The song's true meaning is beyond his ken unfortunately. I'm sure Johnno doesn't really understand the necessity of exercising the mind sufficiently to ward off the possibility of dementia but then that's his lookout. By the way, it is a very catchy tune practised the length and breadth of the Commonwealth. Endlessly. Without variation. Ad nauseam to put it into it's more appropriate perspective. Now Christian, this channel here is an echo chamber to warm the heart. A rabbit hole to cosy up with alongside all the other bunnies. What you will learn here is a sense of loss, racism, exploitation and other imperialistic practises deeply mourned by many who don't understand that the worst of it has never gone away. It's still deadly, still nasty to the extreme, but being American and an ex marine you'd be perfectly aware how that works.

[@hugod2000]

Thank you for posting your interested videos

[@wigglethemiddle1]

Thank you for all your hard work John Anderson!

[@rogeralsop3479]

Excellent men.

[@mayormccheese6171]

The real lesson the West needs to learn from colonialism is not to allow waves of relentless foreign immigration to destroy own our indigenous culture and history just because we are too passive to object. Didn't work out well for the Huron or the Cree or the Aztecs or the Aboriginals so we should heed their warning and keep much tighter borders.

[@billdec8349]

We knew but the bad guys just keep hitting the button.

[@salfordguy399]

Bizarre analysis. Whytes are cowards who give but cannot take. Profound hypocrites and sleazeballs.

[@traddacharlie]

Thanks for reducing the outro music volume btw, my eardrums applaud you.

[@billburr5881]

Compared to who? Let's compare the crimes of the British Empire to those of other states shall we? How about the Bengal Famine 1943 - a famine caused by bad weather, food hoarding, greatly exacerbated by government incompetence and inaction. Eventually resolved by food aid from that same Government. 1 to 2 million dead. Pretty bad. How about others of the time? Empire of Japan. How did it do in China? Upwards of 10 million civilians deliberately targeted and murdered in campaign after campaign. Is that any better? Communist China - Over 40 million dead when slavery was reintroduced and people forced to work for the state. Soviet Union - At least 10 million dead when they too reintroduced slavery into the Ukraine. Nazi Germany - Over 10 million civilians murdered or enslaved. Looks like the British Empire were pretty incompetent at oppression after all!

[@Christian___]

Even the idea that the Bengal famine was some malicious act is nonsense--India was in the middle of a war with Imperial Japan, and was simultaneously having to contend with Hindu ethno-nationalist revolutionaries. They act like India didn't have famines before or after the British got there.

[@ramraghuwanshi2562]

@@Christian___ yes zero famine after British left...

[@Christian___]

@@ramraghuwanshi2562 What about the Bihar drought, 1966-1967; Maharashtra drought, 1972; West Bengal Drought, 1979-1980; Gujarat drought, 1987; Maharashtra drought, 2013? A Times of India report in 2010 has stated that 50% of childhood deaths in India are attributable to malnutrition. In Maharashtra alone, for example, there were around 45,000 childhood deaths due to mild or severe malnutrition in 2009, according to the Times of India.

[@kilarishivaprasad8789]

I understand what you meant in sense of Indians supporting British against Japanese. Yes,we know the difference between Britishers and Japanese morals about war and everything. But more dominating fact is that we fought for British in hope of independence in WW1. In WW2,many Indian leaders claimed not to fight for British. Even some leaders went for Japanese co-operation to liberate India(INA). Finally I say you got your reason right,but it is not the most appropriate reason.

[@williamvorkosigan5151]

The British Empire was the greatest force for good the world has ever seen.

[@yeoldbandicoot548]

Never was the empire for good. Absolutely evil.

[@williamvorkosigan5151]

@@yeoldbandicoot548 You are entirely entitled to your wrong point of view.

[@CasperLabuschagne]

I have ancestors that defended their Boer republics from repeated invasions by the British empire that might disagree with you as will the descendants of the Zulu kingdom. In the case of South Africa it started as a territorial land-grab during the Napoleonic wars and subsequantly simply became a grab for gold and diamond mines for the British Empire. This is not a point of view but historical fact.

[@mariadange06]

Greatest for the British Crown but bloodshed and mayhem for their victims around the globe.

[@williamvorkosigan5151]

@@CasperLabuschagne Oh, so you are descended from the astonishingly white supremacists Boars. You also stand in defence of the Zulu empire expanding, terrorising and enslaving surrounding peoples. So what do you think would happen if the Zulu and the Boar met? I see we have differing views of the definition of evil. You might want to stop while you are so very far behind. I am not sure you can dig much deeper. I wonder if you will try.

[@fraseredk7433]

Hear hear.

[@simondebeer9917]

Delusional

[@fraseredk7433]

@@simondebeer9917 Sorry to hear that.....

[@xavierpaquin]

Thank you 🙏

[@drewwilson6639]

Any kind of criticism would have been crushed by the leaders of the empire. That's why having the freedom to criticize government is so important. Things like human rights and free speech are unique to western civilization because of its Judeo-Christian foundation

[@Christian___]

example?

[@baddog6003]

Judaism is not Christianity. Please stop using that ridiculous term.

[@banta-pd8zj]

Freedom of speech coupled with Christianity. You do realise that those who practiced apostasy and heresy were often treated in what only could be described as extreme prejudice until fairly recently in historical terms?

[@stillumatithedon1519]

America still doing it !!!

[@tonybennett638]

Listen to Blackadder he has a important view on colonialism in the British empire..🤪

[@MichaelHabner]

Empire is the rule of man over man, an immoral act. No possibility is considered that man can and does, at least to some extent, live free of rule. It is assumed that empire is all there is and will be; no counter point or reference is given.

[@shrunkensimon]

None of the apologists ever consider the possibility that there may be more to life than technological advancement. That's always the obfuscation used to hide the immorality of the actions committed. That we 'educated', and advanced, less civilized peoples out of their barbarism. No consideration is ever given to the psychological or spiritual component to a people/culture that was colonised, and thus all progress is seen as linear based on a purely materialistic paradigm. It all forms a nice closed circular logic. The RC Church used a similar technique to disguise their actions in the South America's, by spreading the myths about human sacrifice. Even a child can see through it. If our systems were so great then we would have had no trouble just giving the fruits of it to these people, without the need to brutalize them.

[@chocolatesugar4434]

The threat is real.

[@banta-pd8zj]

So what was the fate of the Indians that fought for the UK in India? They certainly chose the losing side. If only they knew what their imperial masters were planning for them as they were slaughtered for UK interests during WW2.

[@beammeup8458]

GREED ! PURE GREED ! That was the British Empire . NO BLACK MAN WAS PRESENT AT THE ACT OF UNION 1910 in South Africa ! They killed the people and stole the gold and diamonds .... Okay ! THey did build my university ....

[@mariadange06]

Empire is still alive and kicking, the British Crown via secret societies are still behind all wars, once a pirate always a pirate.

[@Christian___]

lol, yeah it's us and the Jews.

[@salfordguy399]

No such thing as 'fellow Africans' in old Africa. It was just fellow humans. Without whytes there is no race consciousness. This is such cowardice.

[@yeoldbandicoot548]

All shame for the last 300 years in my estimation.

[@ramraghuwanshi2562]

If empire was so good why not have it again but this time asia ruling over West?

[@normanzimmerman5029]

ATTABOY. SUCCESS, CREATIVITY AND EXPLORATION BREED GREATER ONENESS AND MUST BE ACKNOWLEDGED AS GIFTS.