How fast has a steam train gone? It probably WASN'T Mallard at 126 MPH... | Railroad 101

What was the fastest steam engine? Let's join the discussion and learn some things about high speed steam.
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[@NorfKhazad]

You didn't cover this, but in addition to the S1, the Franklin company who designed the poppet valves for the PRR T1 had a staffer ride and covertly time PRR trains to determine why the valve gear kept failing on the line between Crestline and Fort Wayne. He did so for a month and timed by mileposts and stopwatch to determine if the PRR was exceeding the 125 mph designed top speed of the valve gear. Over the course of the month he timed multiple occasions where the train exceed 135 mph clocked over several miles, and on one occasion exceeded 146 mph. This is from William Withuhn's book American Steam Locomotives, Design and Development, 1880-1960.

[@nostalgiccameralife]

Does William Withuhn identify the staffer, or otherwise provide a verifiable source?

[@NorfKhazad]

@@nostalgiccameralife I don't have the book in front of me so I can't recall the first name, but Withuhn got it from an interview he conducted with Kirchoff, the head of the poppet valve gear program at the Franklin company. He's the one who tasked the staffer to ride the PRR trains and clock speeds, and he personally verified the accuracy of the staffer's watch and his speed calculations based on the recorded milepost timings. As you can imagine he wanted to be certain of his data before he informed his customer (PRR) that the breakages were their fault.

[@ludwigtails]

This is literally the same case as city of turo. Even it if had reached 100 mph first. It wasn’t recorded but then flying scotmans was and is officially the first engine to reach 100 mph (or something like that). If it ain’t officially recorded it ain’t gonna be official.

[@theimaginationstation1899]

Yes, he was a big fan of footnoting. Kirkoff from memory - something like that.@@nostalgiccameralife

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@ludwigtails Flying Scotsman's ton, like Mallard's 126, has been somewhat debunked by careful analysis. Scotsman likely only did 97 and Mallard 120. The real record belongs to DR 4-6-4 05 002.

[@brucethebatcat5084]

Plot twist: the actual record holder was a runaway RGS freight after tumbling off a mountain.

[@karlo2882]

you mean montezuma of ES&D lol

[@gbwdude]

Oh, it was zooming alright

[@PreservedSteamUK]

Oh you mean LNER A2 60532 "Blue Peter" as the record holder ;) XD

[@Hybris51129]

Superintendent: "So how did the speed record attempt fair?" Conductor: "Poorly."

[@pizzaeater997]

Bruh. Guess it wasnt a dyno car

[@shadowgjhgitgjh2215]

Police Officer: "Do you know how fast you were going back there?" S1 Engineer: "No sir! Speedo only goes up to 110!"

[@seymoarsalvage]

I said this same thing to a cop once in my old Datsun 310. Speedo only went to 85, he clocked me @104 lol

[@kleetus92]

​@@seymoarsalvageLol No sir I don't I was hoping you could help me!

[@Andrew-McCormick]

police officer: can't catch up (train is exceeding 150)

[@alexandermathar7780]

In 1936 only a Duesenberg SJ would have been fast enough to keep up with an S1.

[@chessiesystem]

Grab the popcorn, the comments are about to be a war zone.

[@christinahartley209]

Munch munch amirite

[@FutureRailProductions]

*starts popping popcorn.*

[@MLIW265-FAN]

Fr 😂

[@benettnagy7362]

🍿Popcorn ready! 😅

[@Hyce777]

They're surprisingly tame, honestly.

[@michaelimbesi2314]

A watch being 6% off is vanishingly unlikely, because that would mean the watch would shift by 3.6 minutes per hour, or almost an hour and a half per day, which would never pass muster for keeping appointments, let alone a railroad. But a 300’ difference in station locations seems like it could be within the realm of possible.

[@Hyce777]

It certainly does. We had a few mile markers on a division I worked on that were 200' out in terms of where they were placed in the field.

[@marekfraniak3962]

I think that the problem lies less in watch or mileposts, and more in hands of person clocking it, was he doing it alone or with supervision, was there a bet going that might affect moment he timed, were he able to time precisely or were he forced to do other actions that delayed first clocking and so on...

[@williambutler9609]

A 6% error over 6.3 miles is more than 300 feet. It is actually 1955.84 feet (5280x6.3x.06). It is highly unlikely that there would be a distance error of more than 1/3 of a mile for the distance covered by the mileposts.

[@Hyce777]

@@williambutler9609 I definitely did the math for one mile and then forgot to extrapolate over the whole distance. Lol. Only a few people have caught it which is funny but it further cements the validity imo

[@williambutler9609]

I totally agree that it does also.@@Hyce777

[@andywomack3414]

My father and uncle both fired steam locomotives for the B&O. My uncle told me that if an engineer, for some reason, kept the Johnson bar forward as the engine gained speed, he might wind up with a shovel-full of coal on his lap as a message from the fireman trying to keep up with the increased demand for coal in the fire-box.

[@trainnerd25]

Where on the system? I quite enjoy the B&O but I don't have any railroad in my blood.

[@andywomack3414]

@@trainnerd25 Baltimore Division, west end. They fired Pacific's on the Washington Branch, and Mikado's up the river and over the hill on the Old Main Line

[@trainnerd25]

@@andywomack3414 man that's so cool. I always heard that they would come out of Baltimore or D.C with a Q then switch over to an S class shortly outside of the city and take it to the west. The Pacifics were really neat and seemed to handle the best over the plains of the west with those big drivers. Its a shame we didn't get an S class preserved even if they were bumpy.

[@andywomack3414]

@@trainnerd25 The Santa Fe's were call "Big Sixes" back in the day. They called the Pacific's "Beetles" or "Bean Beetles." The Mikado's became "Mikes" after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Washington Branch is fairly level, but since it was built before the Civil War there are some sharp curves that limit speeds between St. Denis and Elk Ridge. By dad said he rarely saw a Big Six as they were mostly used on the Cumberland Division over the Allegheny.

[@Hyce777]

I have threatened engineers with a bonk from the scoop myself... Lol

[@VirgotheDrusky]

17:30 its not being rebuilt, its being BUILT, from scratch, using cad and original blueprints. Its gonna be numbered as the next locomotive in the class, which is 5550

[@jeffreyhavlik3562]

I thought it might be 5150?

[@davidwhiting1761]

Fun fact: On the run that Mallard set the official speed record, the loco's designer Sir Nigel Gresley "disguised" the speed trial as a brake test to check how well the brakes on the locomotive and the coaching stock operated and see how fast the train could stop from high speed. It wasn't until immediately before the run that Gresley revealed that the brake test was actually going to be an attempt at the speed record and he allowed anyone not brave enough to ride the train at such high speed to leave (no regular passengers were on the train, just technicians and company officials). The reason for disguising the trial was because Gresley had made an agreement with his primary rival on the London Midland & Scottish Railway Sir William Stanier to stop attempting speed records after Stanier's latest attempt resulted in his train nearly derailing as it went through a curve approaching Crewe. Reports are that the crew threw on the brakes, the train rocked, sparks flew, and all the plates and silverware were flung off the tables in the dining cars. By then speed attempts were deemed too dangerous and so the 2 agreed to stop making speed record attempts. Until Gresley designed the A4 class anyway😂.

[@Hyce777]

That's hilarious!

[@BrokenIET]

classic lying, cheating LNER. This is why I hate the LNER and Gresley in particular.

[@Lemonaitor]

This, combined with the fact it was achieved going down Stoke Bank, and burnt out the middle big end in the process are always the reason the cynic in me (while being an LNER fan) that Mallard doesn't really deserve a record sung from the rooftops. Doesn't change that they are still beautiful pieced of engineering.

[@davidwhiting1761]

While you can argue that there were bragging rights on the line, it's also a fact that Gresley and Stanier weren't antagonistic of each other but remained friendly in their rivalry. Stanier called Gresley and congratulated him after Mallard's run. There was also a bigger reason why Gresley made the record attempt even after making his agreement with Stanier: National Pride. At the time Germany made a diesel-powered train that managed to travel at speeds.above 100mph (I think it even beat Stanier's previous record of 112mph). Gresley wanted to prove that Steam was still superior and, more importantly, that British engineering could keep pace with and even exceed German engineering in the years leading up to World War 2.

[@bentboybbz]

No more high speed attempts...until I finish building my next locomotive to test 😂

[@kennethross786]

The actual recorded top speed was 125.59 mph, and for years Gresley refused to acknowledge 126 mph because of that 0.41 mph. Mallard also melted down a main bearing doing it and had to slow to 75 mph for the rest of the run (incredible it could maintain 75 mph despite the bearing damage), and then was towed to a shop for repairs. But the two locomotives with the best chance at dethroning Mallard were the Pennsy S1 and the Milwaukee Road F7 - both carried 84" drivers. The F7's were built for speed and the Milwaukee Road's timetables reflected that - when you have a 75 mile run and less than an hour from roll out to wheels stopped crews had to drop the hammer coming out of the gate and drop it they did - they were capable of 120+ mph and probably equaled or beat Mallard's record on a number of occasions. Sadly, one was lost to an accident (someone forgot to open the lube reservoir valve on one side, leading to the running gear seizing up at 100+ mph and flying apart. No fatalities,, 2-3 injured, but the locomotive was deemed a total loss) and the other five were scrapped. The best hope is for a new record holder is T1 Trust 5550.

[@TheInternationalHarvesterMan]

Finally MILWAUKEE ROAD representation

[@threepea1151]

Literally nobody wants to break an 85 year old record

[@Studio23Media]

As cool as it would be, I don't see anybody still running a steam engine to ever push an engine that hard. The risk is not worth the reward these days.

[@kennethross786]

@@Studio23Media that's the beauty of T1 Trust 5550 - it's a brand-new T1, meaning it will be in factory showroom condition (if such a thing existed in the Golden Age of Steam days). If someone was going to try to push one of these historical locomotives (N&W 611, SP 4449, UP 844, etc.) to 126+ I would be dead-set against it.

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@kennethross786 how many of those engines are still equipped with their original 80-year-old connecting rods, pistons etc? Brand new doesn't guarantee reliability either, 60163 Tornado suffered a catastrophic mechanical failure on its first public 90mph train after its 102mph record run.

[@Shadowtiger2564]

I would like to give an honarble mention to the Japanese National Railways C62-17 which broke the speed record for a narrow-gauge (3 foot 6 inch for this locomotive) steam locomotive on the 15 of December 1954 when it reached 129 km/h (80 mph) on the Tōkaidō Main Line. This run was with a dynamometer car and was to test a new high speed bridge on the line

[@Suck3382]

Not really that impressive considering New Zealand locomotives of similar era were doing close to this as well….

[@dannyhilarious]

C62 ... "the lady" ... indeed a beautiful machine.

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

Interestingly enough, Australia now holds the 3 foot six speed record, at only 210 km/h. It's pretty rubbish how slow narrow gauge trains go.

[@Shadowtiger2564]

@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 that's for an electric locomotive though. I would assume that narrow gauge in general is slower because of stability. Smaller gauge means a smaller base and higher chances of rolling over at higher speeds.

[@BandanRRChannel]

My only comment on this topic is a quote I heard from Doyle McCormack when a kid visiting the Oregon Rail Heritage Center asked how fast SP 4449 could go. "The speed limit of the locomotive is the guts of the engineer." Actually, secondary comment: look at a BNSF track chart. There's a lot of mileposts that are less than 5280' apart. And some that are more than that. Line realignments will do that.

[@Hyce777]

Yup. I had to deal with that while working at sound transit. We had to re do a bunch of stuff on the Lakewood sub. Lol There's video of a GS doing 115. I'd bet they went faster

[@ToledoRails]

Doyle’s comment is the thing about these speed claims I stand by when it comes to record claims. Crews with balls of steel pushing their locomotives to the edge for fun probably exceeded 100 and well beyond. Mallard has it officially, but no doubt it was beaten several times over.

[@kylegentile2007]

Doyle told me the same thing. Family friend I see him quite a bit

[@tboneisgaming]

It's an interesting story. The rivalry for speed was between the LMS and the LNER. The Coronation Class operated by the LMS nearly derailed during it's record attempt. The Mallard damaged its bearing on it record breaking run. Gresley thought it was capable of 130 mph. But that wasn't attempted as the war effort took presidence.

[@jonathanj8303]

They also calculated, prior to the run, the maximum safe speed through certain key curves and turnouts. Which calculations where then completely ignored on the actual run by leaving the braking too late, resulting in the flange mounting the outer rail at one point, say a literal inch from disaster. I think I saw this in one of ES Cox's books, he was likely the guy who also did the calcs.

[@dtj9923]

It's important to point out that Mallard destroyed a bearing on the 126mph run. There was no second run. We had a lot of equipment running 120mph as a matter of routine. Typical land speed rules require a second run to confirm the vehicle can repeat the speed.

[@tboneisgaming]

@@dtj9923 A second run was planned but scrapped when the war effort escalated.

[@jonathanj8303]

@tboneisgaming I think the poster meant that a second run in the opposite direction within a few hours is normal for landspeed attempts. Usually to account for differences in wind, gradient, etc. To be fair, I think that might be a more recent thing and it's not usually applied to trains - all of the rail records I can think of are one way only Realistically there's not much doubt that mallard sustained 125mph for for a couple of minutes and peaked briefly at 126. It also wrecked the big end in the process, though not as badly as Silver Link a few years previously. The contemporary DB record is fractionally slower, bit slightly harder, because it was on generally rising gradients. As an aside, the bearing issue ultimately got more or less fixed post war by swapping them for marine pattern ones, but while that had reliability benefits, no one had any interest in trying for new world records.

[@dtj9923]

@jonathanj8303 You are correct, and I agree with you. No doubt the locomotive ran 125 and briefly touched 126, not debating that. This instance fits the profile of a qualifying run where you blow the engine to secure the pole position at any cost. I'm not familiar with the post war modifications on Mallard. Roller bearings and modern lightweight rods would have been a better retrofit choice all around after they were introduced by Timken.

[@stratagama]

The Milwaukee road F7 Hudsons also may be contenders. The route between Chicago and the twin cities was one of the most hotly contested routes in the country, and the Milwaukee road often claimed it was the fastest, and it definitely had the fastest timetables. Often requiring start-to-stop speed averages north of 80mph, which in practice means top speeds in the low 130s. And these trains, when they would take delays, would often fight to make up the time, which has led to anecdotal stories of those locomotives into the high 140s and low 150s being relatively common.

[@JuneNafziger]

The Milwaukee road Hiawatha timetables are really impressive (especially compared to today, though that’s the case for many an Amtrak route)

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

the Milwaukee road engines also did it without a specialist crew, so without preptime or specialized crew the Milwaukee road would kick the absolute crap out of the A4s

[@Hyce777]

I had heard vague things of the Hudson's doing high speed but couldn't find a good source to use to include them. Thanks for the comments :)

[@stratagama]

@@Hyce777 yeah, the Milwaukee road has much less viable sources compared to the Pennsylvania railroad. Everything about them is word of mouth or is soft evidence based on other info. The timetable between Chicago and Milwaukee for example was a little more than 30 minutes faster than today's Amtrak service, which already is scheduled at 90mph and the track speed limit is rated for 110mph when it falls behind schedule.

[@stratagama]

Also the Chicago and Northwestern E4s could also give the MR a run for it's money. The CNWs call tagline was Chicago to Minneapolis in 400 minutes. And they took the long way around that made more stops.

[@gundamwarrior]

I know the PRR T1 is more than likely capable of besting it. Watching videos of T1's doing high speed runs that have been uploaded onto YT. Seeing the amount of poles and counting the time it takes the train to pass by a handful of them within a certain period of time. Then researching the distance between poles that ran next to railroads like that usually. You can almost accurately find the speed the T1's went and I got around 118mph in one video I watched which is very damn close. And if thats possible I can imagine them going much faster than the LNER A4.

[@KidarWolf]

I think what I'm comfortable saying is that Mallard holds the official speed record, and that the S1 holds the unofficial speed record. It takes nothing away from the crews, the designers, the railroads, and the companies who made those amazing pieces of technology possible to acknowledge both locomotives as the magnificent feats of engineering that they are. Both deserve recognition for not just their records, but their every day running that kept money in the bank and food on the table for all who worked on or with them.

[@ducewags]

The fastest I have gone by steam power, 160+ mph from a ship catapult. That is over 1,600psi of steam if people wanted to know. Thanks for the shows Hyce.

[@TheOneTrueDragonKing]

Bravo Zulu, pilot.

[@ducewags]

@@TheOneTrueDragonKing Not a pilot, or in the AF. Used the AF and pilot to fly us in Iraq you know it as "Desert Shield". A night jump during a sand storm in June 1990 got myself and 64 others on the ground, that is pre-war by the way.

[@widodoakrom3938]

Nuts the highest boiling pressure for steam locomotive is 300 PSI event A4 class never reached that pressure

[@TheOneTrueDragonKing]

@@ducewags If you were an actual naval aviator (steam catapult shot off an aircraft carrier), you would know the term "Bravo Zulu" is universal - it's fighter pilot lingo for both navy and air force for "good job" or "well done". Now you're saying you were infantry? (Who don't take catapult rides.) Something's not adding up here. Are you pretending to be military? You do know that's a crime, right? Stolen Valor...

[@ducewags]

@@TheOneTrueDragonKing Did you even read my comment? NOPE. I was NOT a pilot, and did NOT serve on a ship. The AF was used to drop us in a zone. Is that hard for you to understand?

[@gdrriley420]

I also wouldn’t be surprised if the ATSF 2900 class was in the running for beating mallard but probably not the fastest in the world. They were cleared for 110mph

[@cadetkohr5508]

A story I've heard from one of the old heads that works on the 2926 is that there was an engineer running late. Now he didn't like that to much, so he was running as fast as the engine would let him. He only saw how fast he was going when he started slowing down for a station, when he looked at the speedometer and saw it reading 120. As you can guess he made up the time pretty quick.

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

at this point if it is true the FEF-3s could have beaten Mallard..

[@gdrriley420]

@@robertbalazslorincz8218 yeah they likely could have but it’s UP so I don’t talk about them

[@thunderjet4294]

​@@gdrriley420 That's atsf not up

[@gdrriley420]

@@thunderjet4294 FEF-3 are UP

[@apexqc04]

Have to say, as a Brit, that the number of times I've heard of various US locomotives pushing into the 120s to get the job done makes it very suspicious that Mallard's record truly is the fastest a steam unit has ever run at.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Unfortunately for the American claims there is no verifiable evidence.

[@yeoldeseawitch]

@@neiloflongbeck5705 Leave it to americans to talk a big game with no proof

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@@yeoldeseawitch the rest of the world isn't immune to such behaviours.

[@vega1287]

there is also the german DRG class 05 that held the speed record (200.4 Km/h) form 1936 until mallard set her's.

[@peterkoch3777]

German 05 002 reached 200,4 km/h and could sustain that speed at that day in 1936. Several Nazi bosses were on the train. And she didn't break down like the Mallard.😂 BTW: her wheels were 2,3m in diameter.

[@dschoene57]

The East German Reichsbahn later built the BR 18 in the early 1960s, because they needed a loco to test high-speed rail carriages. BR 18 201 is still operational and although she "only" did 185 kph, she would now be the worlds fastest operational steam loco.

[@Valkyrie9000]

Per WTYP, technically rat viscera boils in a vacuum, thereby making the Dalkey atmospheric railway the fastest steam-powered locomotive

[@Quackagate]

Ahh a person of culture I see. Yaya Liam

[@lolroflpmsl]

I'd wager the NYC Hudsons should be in there too. It'll be intersting to see what the new-build T-1 can do - they want to go for the speed record, so let's see how that'll effect it, especially with the poppet valve gear. The bigger US loading gauge and development of steam beyond 1939 (WWII really nerfed us) really mean you guys can make far better use of the power than the UK. Our most powerful (non-articulated, yes we did have some Garratts) locos max out at ~42000 lbs TE. This is also where as an academic exercise I''d like to see a true new build designed using modern CAD and fluid simulation, with modern materials and tolerances, and see what that can do... just a matter of funding it!

[@BringMayFlowers]

130 was doable even in the 1930s, I'm confident you could see a 150 run with a modern steam design. The main thing modern practices would help with is fuel efficiency, up to something like 17% from the 8% of historical designs. Something I've never seen someone suggest other than myself is making the trailing truck a booster using a truck from a four-axle diesel powered via a battery on or under the tender.

[@lolroflpmsl]

@@BringMayFlowers Interesting you should mention that because I've been mulling over the idea of a diesel (on an oil-fired loco, would simplify logistics massively) APU with ample batteries on new steam for running the likes of HEP (for modern coaching stock), air compressors, hydrailics (if applicable), but also primarily as an electrical booster so the loco could be shunted when steaming up/cold and for a bit of extra oomph where it most needs it when starting off. You could augment this with a compact turbine generator run off the superheater once the boiler is up to temperature. With respect to the efficiency, I reckon we could go higher if you added a condensor and went closed-cycle, but this again comes with its own drawbacks and far less spectacle. Personally I'd probably aim for a water tube boiler fitting in the same profile as a conventional one with a huge superheater, fully monitored with and controlled by computers and optimised for high efficiency. How you'd optimise the running gear for max power in a compact frame (working within the UK loading gauge here) is a different matter. I'm mulling a X-4-4-X duplex with 4 cyliders per set (8 total), divided drive (outer cylinders on back axles, inner on front, 45 degree crank angles) with fairly small stroke and bore to better handle higher speed, using fine control of Caprotti or Lenz-style valve gear, or whether you could go with something like Koenigsegg's FreeValve is a different matter. With a nice high pressure boiler (300 psi+) you could probably eek 60-70 klbs out of something not much bigger than a 9F, with a decent top speed to boot. Nobody can say I don't come up with ambitious ideas...

[@atshinkansen7439]

If you enclose that in a B-unit-style carbody, it would be a lot less visually jarring compared to a modern diesel. B-units at least somewhat resemble baggage cars.

[@lolroflpmsl]

@@atshinkansen7439 the old F-class diesels are very elegant with the art deco styling.

[@ReggieArford]

Or use a small steam turbine/generator to power your electric "booster". There should be sufficient steam available at low speeds. @@BringMayFlowers

[@1970bosshemi]

I love that one of the anecdotes is from your grandfather. absolutely gives me chills to think of those iron giants pounding the rails at 140+ would make grown men cry to see it in real life

[@EviLincoln]

I remember hearing that once the t1 is completed, it's gonna go for the speed record. But who knows for sure

[@theimaginationstation1899]

The insurers, and it won't.

[@JonsGarage89]

@@theimaginationstation1899 Theres a test track out west they can run it on safetly.

[@CoyoteCoop]

@@theimaginationstation1899For someone who’s got imagination in the name, I’d expect you to have a bit more of it. Also, anything can “go for a record”, that doesn’t always mean it will break it. (It likely will though)

[@nategilmore6087]

If you look at their website and keep up with the news they have 2 set goals In mind for this locomotive. 1. Have the ability to run mainline excursion trains with it, and 2. To break the steam record. They are working on getting permission from 2 different places so that they can test the locomotive properly. They're hoping to get Amtrak to let them use the Northeast corridor for it or there is a test track of some kind out in Indiana I think and they're certain they can use that.

[@EricKNYShinzoOCHudson]

If people say this is going to be a war zone, I bet it will be similar to the arguments on who actually made the first powered flight lol

[@Mishn0]

If you want to see a fight, go onto a steel warship site and ask: "what color was Arizona on the morning of Dec 7, 1941". And, if you're talking manned, sustained, controllable, heavier-than-air flight, there's no argument. "Greg's airplanes and automobiles" KZbin channel has a good video explaining why Wilbur and Orville have the sole rights to that claim.

[@EricKNYShinzoOCHudson]

@@Mishn0 yes, I do understand that most credits go to the Wright Bros for the first powered flight and I do stand with that claim. However it is still debated tho

[@WG55]

@@EricKNYShinzoOCHudson Typically you hear Brazilians online insisting that Alberto Santos-Dumont was the first to fly after flying a powered lighter-than-air ship around the Eiffel Tower in 1901. His _14-bis_ was the first heavier-than-air to be _witnessed by a crowd of people_ in 1906.

[@EricKNYShinzoOCHudson]

@@WG55 interesting, only thing I have heard so far was a 1901 flight of a person that I forgor lol

[@SnakebitSTI]

@@EricKNYShinzoOCHudsonPeople still debate it, but not because there's anything left to debate. The weight of evidence is staggeringly lopsided in favor of the Wright Flyer. Ironically, you don't hear people talk about the actual achievements of other early aviation pioneers much, because they're too focused on trying to claim they were the first to fly rather than talking about what they actually did. It's rather sad, really.

[@andrewframe8046]

Last week I was in a 70-ton mikado going about 20 mph and it felt like we were going light speed.

[@Hyce777]

Can confirm, small engines on backwoods-esque track make 20 feel like 200. lol.

[@Eggomania86]

I remember watching a UP video where Ed Dickens was sort of doing a Q and A about 844 FEF 3's. He did mention that Railroads during the late steam period with American Railroads didn't advertise or officially recorded top speeds for their locomotives. This was because each railroad had different locomotives to perform a specific tasks. Also that with American Railroads each of the railroads were competing for passenger service. Each railroad kept top speeds of their locomotives secret so the competing Railroads wouldn't steel designs or one up them. I personally believe there is truth to this. I definitely agree about the differences in Railroad requirements between USA and UK. I think there were several American engines that could easily competed with Mallards. You had NYJ engines the J class Hudsons, and Niagra class 4-8-4. NW J class, UP FEF, of course the Pennsy S-1 and T-1, the Daylight GS4, ATSF 2900's. In my opinion all of which are contenders for Mallards title.

[@legdig]

I think the S1 getting ticketed for speed would be great publicity for the railroad and that may have lead to the spreading of some accounts :P Gotta say, mallard did hit 126 in the most british way possible, Going those speeds for as long as she did caused a stink bomb to explode in her valve gear, one that had been put there to say "HOLY CRAP YOU'RE GONNA DIE, THE VALVE GEAR IS MELTING." I believe the attempt at 126 was actually kept a secret at the time before the run started. She almost derailed at the bottom of the incline and limped her way to the station before they made her safe.

[@Antimatter1207]

The S1's run happened after the ICC implemented stricter rules to prevent passenger trains from exceeding the speed limits. The PRR publicizing the run would effectively be them admitting to a crime.

[@nostalgiccarlife5419]

@@Antimatter1207 The ICC didn't implement those rules until after the S1 was retired from service. The 79mph limit was instituted in 1947. The S1 did not run after 1946. If you have any, and I mean ANY contemporary evidence for the PRR being fined by the ICC for exceeding a speed limit *with the S1 specifically* I would love to see it.

[@FirestormMk3]

Mallard's speed test was disguised as a brake test until the last minute. These speed tests had been disallowed and Gresley even made a gentleman's agreement to not do anymore with his main rival after a speed test almost derailed a locomotive and full passenger consist. Of course once Gresley had the A4 Class and was convinced he would definitely win that agreement went right out the window. I think it's also worth noting that the record was achieved on a downhill grade and there are some experts who claim only 124mph can be confirmed because of inconsistencies in the paper roll speed on the car used for measurement, but I obviously don't know enough personally to weigh in on that last part. That extremely short period at high speed, going downhill, did severe damage to the locomotive and it had to limp to the station at the bottom of the hill and then be towed to a repair facility. It could not maintain that speed for more than a minute or two. Personally that makes me slightly more impressed by the DRG Class 05 records, if we're going to just talk about verified, measured records. It did 124.5mph, but did it on a level test track, not downhill. Furthermore it set the stop-start-stop record, which measures average speed from full stop to full stop over a length of track. It made a 70 mile run from full stop to full stop in 48:32, which is an average speed of about 87mph. All that said, just as an enthusiastic layman, I find it perfectly reasonable to believe the S1 could have performed at these speeds as well. I'd be even more willing to believe it ran at higher average speeds under normal conditions. We'll never know, and I think even if the T1 build breaks these records, I think most people still will in many ways reject the new record because it was built with new material and building standards even if it's using an old design.

[@noahhorinek]

@@FirestormMk3yeah but the record isn’t just “old steam go fast”. It encompasses all steam trains, new and old. People are enthusiastic about breaking records, especially in this community

[@FirestormMk3]

@@noahhorinek To be clear, I wouldn't be one of those people who doesn't care and disregards anything this new build will do. I'm pretty excited to see it even if just in video if it becomes real. I just understand the point of view of purists who will say it doesn't count if it isn't an actual locomotive of the time period.

[@sBinotto-dg4rn]

I mean... just going over the raw engineering specifications of the LNER A4's, the Pennsy S1 and the Pennsy T1... it's literally impossible to say that the two Pennsy engines were incapable of breaking the record. The S1 and T1's were newer-built, ran higher boiler pressures, had bigger drivers, a cutoff between 70-80%, were free-steaming with their famous belpaire fireboxes. We also know the T1's were stress-tested and clocked on the Altoona test bench at a wheelspeed of up to 140 mph, so... there is a very, very good chance the S1 and T1's went faster. With the sheer amount of 3rd party sources claiming how fast the Pennsy engines went; there's little doubt in my mind the Pennsy actually holds the steam speed record. We'll see for certain when 5550 gets completed.

[@furripupau]

"could" and "did" are different things. 😉

[@bran9379]

Gotcha!!!!!!!!!!!! oeAOEOAO!!!!!!!@@furripupau

[@DaysofKnight]

​@furripupau Yeah, you seem to be a fanatic incapable of any thought experiment. Your "It's recorded means it's fact, if it's not you're a bitch with high hopes." attitude kinda seems to paint you as a general dick

[@johnperic6860]

​@@furripupau They did

[@furripupau]

@@johnperic6860 And yet nobody can point to any record of it happening. Nobody can point to literally any evidence at all that on a specific day, at a specific location, a specific speed was reached, and give names of the people who witnessed it. Meanwhile we know all of those things for Mallard's run.

[@Juxen4021]

An account by the late Smithsonian curator, Bill Withuhn, describes that the Caprotti valvegear was good for up to 125 mph; and certain T1 loco engineers kept breaking them. Only happened on (I think) the Fort Wayne Division, and they had an incognito passenger ride along on one of these 140+ jaunts. Again, another anecdotal account, but still valuable information.

[@brillbusbootcamp2320]

For all those who hide behind the “you need a dynamometer car” defense: Who specified that? Who inspects and calibrates those cars? It’s an easy vocabulary word to repeat, but it raises more questions than answers, at least to me. Signed, a trolley operator who only measures speed by how much the car is hunting. 😄

[@Hyce777]

That's certainly an interesting point. One would presume the dynamometer would work based off of gearing or belting to the wheels which would have wear and all that sort of thing... I don't know if it would account for a significant difference in reading, but we do have to recalibrate locomotive speedos with wheel true even when it's a small cut so that's a possible factor!

[@furripupau]

If it raises questions for you it's simply because you haven't done any homework.

[@kainhall]

@@furripupau ok ill bite...... where is your homework at then? . are we SURE the dyno car wanst owned by the railroad? because i can see that happening in the USA lol.....so probably could happen in UK also

[@brillbusbootcamp2320]

I don’t think I’ll ever become invested enough in online arguments that I bother taking time looking up tiny details about foreign railroads that I really have zero interest in.

[@furripupau]

@@brillbusbootcamp2320 Not really an argument, just simple facts. If you don't care, don't comment. Cheers.

[@Armageddon_71]

I whould say Mallard holds the "official record" but the pensies probably hold the inofficial record. I can believe these BEHEMOTHS went 130+ but 140? 150?! Thats seems ridiculous.

[@NigelGresley_OG]

And no matter who holds the official or unofficial record it's all very neat to hear about these different steam engines going insane amounts of speed.

[@Hacksworth_Sidings]

Seems ridiculous? Should do, they didn’t Arguably, the unofficial record holder would be the Peppercorn A2 “Blue Peter”, in 1994 she tore herself apart coming off the viaduct at Durham, due to an inexperienced crew who overfilled the water tanks and opened the regulator too far, jamming it open and sending it into a 140mph wheelslip Personally I don’t believe any steam locos could do the same speeds as Mallard (or more), given how the world has changed since the 1930s, but given Tornado’s 100mph dash in 2017 I don’t thing high speed steam is impossible in the 21st century…

[@1471SirFrederickBanbury]

@@Hacksworth_Sidings I do agree and admire the attention to the Blue Peter incident. I do think however, if we took care to tune up 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley, or Bittern, they could do 130 on HS1 or similar. Mallard wasn’t set up as well as 2509 Silver Link, which could easily have done 120, and Gresley even calculated 130, wanting to try again for it in 1939. Sense steam locos are great at exceeding their calculated performance, I’d say go for it on the 3rd of May, 2038!

[@Hacksworth_Sidings]

@@1471SirFrederickBanbury completely forgot about that, yes, there was going to be an attempted 130mph dash in 1939 with one of Mallard’s sisters, pushed off and forgotten about due to the war though, as impossible as it sounds, would love to see an A4 at least attempt neck-breaking speeds again…

[@Armageddon_71]

@@Hacksworth_Sidings nah i dont think so. 100 mph might be the fastest possible *in the UK* . The T1 trust T1 is probably going to reach 120 maybe even more.

[@Arkay315]

Proabably somewhere around 140 mph. Mallard set the official record, but unofficially some steam locomotives have gone faster than 126.7 mph.

[@homeboy_roy1570]

As a professional watchmaker, I can say with absolute certainty that American railroad watches are an absolute treat to work on. They're capable of magnificent timekeeping far superior to Swiss pocket watches of the time. I can usually make a hamilton 992b keep better time than even my daily wear rolex from the late 90s. I feel like they hold such tremendous energy and if they could talk, they'd have some incredible stories to tell. Railroad watches are definitely my favorite thing to work on

[@Admiral_Ellis]

We stan the T1 Trust in this house. Get that record. Duck for dinner.

[@tiernanflynn]

Yeehaw, #DuckForDinner

[@willdalton1016]

I'm a bit biased being from southern Virginia lol, but the N&W J class locomotives should be considered for this speed list as well. Eventhough they only had 70 inch drivers their counterbalancing was second to none and "mathematically" they should have been able to reach 140mph although this was never tested. Their are several accounts of the J's running 115+ mph on good track, mainly the stretch between Suffolk, VA and Petersburg, VA, I would love to see a video from you on your take on the J's at some point.

[@86abaile]

It's pedantic, but the point of records is that they're recorded. The mallard has the record as the fastest steam train ever recorded, not necessarily as the fastest steam train.

[@3801NSWGR.]

Yes, ever recorded.

[@Hyce777]

And that's totally fair!

[@nostalgiccameralife]

Amazing how few people get this.

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@3801NSWGR. Although the recording is somewhat dubious... the real record belongs to 05 002.

[@teddansonLA]

@@richardharrold9736 It's not dubious - Mallard may not have done 126 mph, but it's clear of 124.5 mph as recorded by 05 002.

[@thundercreekcustoms]

My grandfather remembers riding behind a T1 when moving from Ohio to Pennsylvania as a boy. Even after flying in helicopters in Vietnam, he said that riding the Broadway still felt more like flying.

[@Spook_Boi]

as someone said in a stream: "either it went through a wormhole, or it went 150 mile an hour"

[@SubparRobotWars]

like every comment here, grab your salt pinchers... Mallard holds the 'Official' record, as it was an organized attempt at the speed record, using recording equipment onboard (under the pretense of a 'brake test' to not arouse Ze Germans) while the S1 claims are an unoffical record, in that there was no declaration of going for a speed record, just a case of "hmm, we appear to be going a bit quick here... Driver must be in a rush, oh dear we're doing 130+mph and now we're in trouble" which would probably be seen more as a PR nightmare of "we can't be doing these speeds as we may be seen as careless/reckless, so shut up about it" So yes, the S1 was probably going faster than 126 on the regular, but more of a hush hush campaign to stop getting loco crews in trouble. Mallard's run was pure PR for the LNER and to stick middle fingers up at Ze Germans.

[@maghost_rider5698]

On an interesting side note the BR standard class 9F freight locomotives proved that dispite their 10 small 5 ft 0 in drivers that they were very much capable of pulling fast express passenger trains if called to do so. "On one occasion, a 9F was set to haul an express passenger train, in place of the normal LNER pacific, from Grantham to King's Cross. An enthusiast aboard the train timed the run and noted that twice the speed exceeded 90 mph. The driver was afterwards told that he was only supposed to keep time, "not break the bloody sound barrier!". He replied that the engine had no speedometer, and that it ran so smoothly at high speeds that he just let it run as fast as felt safe. Nor was this the only instance of 9Fs reaching high speeds. However, concerns that the high rotational speeds involved in fast running could cause excessive wear and tear to the plain-bearing running gear prompted the British Railways management to stop using 9Fs on express passenger trains." To give you an idea just how high the rotational speeds were the wheels and valve gear were doing 6 rotations every second!

[@MainlineThruTheRockies]

Duck for Dinner, the PRR is a winner

[@tiernanflynn]

Yeehaw

[@Markus_Teltschik]

When we talk about the speed-rekord its funny that noone thinks about the Class 05 from the DRG when you make just a little more about 125 mp/h but in contrast to the Mallard the 05 002 didn't broke a bearing and when they reached the record. The Class 05 had 90,5 inch drivers and 290 psi boiler-presure.

[@uncipaws7643]

Very interesting explanations. Similar claims are made for the Milwaukee Road Hudson class F7 (6 units built 1937/1938 by Alco), there it was passengers with stopwatches taking times between mile posts coming up with speeds up to 205 km/h. On a line without cab signalling, probably with road crossings, with a regular Hiawatha train ... Crazy times; nowadays the safety regulations are much stricter.

[@jacoblyman9441]

Come for the speed arguments, stay for a lesson on RPM, stroke, piston and back pressure engineering.

[@railwayjade]

I have not watched the video when making this comment. Mallard is official in terms of being documented. I have heard the Pennsy T1s regularly went over the speed but nothing was officially recorded. When talking about such things, to not confuse non-railway people, I just keep it to Mallard. I am now watching the video, LOL. EDIT: Wow! I never knew the S1 was so cool! Thanks for the technical info, Hyce, always awesome to hear! If you are not releasing another video before then, Merry Christmas and a Prosperous / Happy New Year to you and your family Hyce!

[@steamgent4592]

The PRR and the Reading were doing the speeds of Mallard decades before. Gresley just did it officially with a dynamometer car so it was deemed official. But the Readings Atlantic City Flyer with its 86” drivers Camelback P5 Atlantics and the PRR E on the Boardwalk Flyer. PRRs E6 was Pennsy’s smoothest high speed loco for ride quality and crews felt safe taking it to its limits.

[@nychudson464]

I've heard multiple locomotives in the US are contenders for the speed record. The Milwaukee Road Atlantics were purpose built for the speed record but the Hiawatha train service became so popular that they never officially went for the record. And the trains got so heavy they built the Hudsons to take over the service that couldn't run as fast as the Atlantics.

[@mafarnz]

I’m glad you mentioned inaccuracies of mile post locations. On my railroad the WI&M in Northern Idaho, as part of our track reconstruction project we had a civil engineer walk the entire railroad with a measuring wheel. What we have found is that most mile posts are off, and there are several locations where many of the miles are short, some by up to a quarter of a mile. So any speed record that relies solely counting mile post is in my opinion very questionable.

[@Acela2163]

The thing that most annoys me about all of this is that the Milwaukee Road had a dynamometer car. They could have gone for the record with the F7. And yet they didn't.

[@MercenaryPen]

My understanding is that the Germans (who held the record directly prior to Mallard's run) do tend to take Mallard's record with a pinch of salt, in that their own records were achieved approximately on the level as opposed to Mallard hitting its top speed on a downhill stretch... I've heard that Germany was due to make another attempt at taking the record, only for the events of the late 1930s and early 1940s to get in the way of doing anything of the sort

[@richardharrold9736]

Not just the Germans. British expert Bryan Benn is equally skeptical about Mallard having beaten 05 002.

[@Mildcat743]

The unofficial record I like to point to as relatively plausible is the Milwaukee Road's streamlined Class A Atlantics used for Hiawatha service. Lightweight running gear on 84 inch drivers seems incredibly plausible for the unofficially recorded speeds of around 132mph on the Twin Cities Hiawatha.

[@MachRacer4]

The Milwaukee Road F7 class Hudsons were said to be capable of going 127MPH on a regular basis without suffering severe damage like Mallard did.

[@maasvandegraaf3099]

14:25 Milemarker and Milepost are not interchangeable. Mileposts are a function of the stationing of a railroad (0+00.00 , 1+00.00 , etc. basically the length in feet along the centerline of the tracks from a starting point) Milemarkers, however, are the physical signs along ROW that are generally where their corresponding milepost is, but section crews have habit of using some creativity in where a milemarker is placed. If anything, this distinction should make the S1’s claim more credible since timetables are using milepost and also were likely revised significantly after the 1918 ICC valuations, which produced very detailed and accurate maps of RR ROW which civil engineers for railroads still frequently use for projects.

[@Hyce777]

Very good point; and I should've remembered that from dealing with mile markers not matching mileposts and the proper stationing on the sub I worked on. Lol!

[@erumaaro6060]

Wouldn't surprise me if the S1 was indeed faster. I'll be look forward to see the T1 barrelling down the track.

[@Hiei2k7]

My own personal anecdote of steam speed revolved around a neighbor of mine who was a retired Milwaukee Road engineer. He operated out of Savanna, Illinois but had been around the system and at one point was running with MILW 265 (currently at Illinois Railway Museum, Union IL). He had claimed that 265 had done 120 MPH under his hand to clear the lane going through Wisconsin (Between LaCrosse and Portage).

[@patricksheary2219]

Hi Mark, finally got to watching this and it was fascinating. Hearing you explain how locomotives operate fast was most interesting and clarified questions I had from my personal readings that I was going to ask you. Speed aside, the fact that engineers continually designed toward the ultra-efficient choo choo (sometimes so much so that they became operational and maintenance headaches) is just mind blowing. And those intense psi’s, OMG. I think both choo choos were beautiful in their streamlined look, but I have to admit British choo choos are most artistic and generally so clean lined. Of course, I’m always a sucker for the American version decorated in the rococo revival style with gilt highlights! There’s so much to enjoy and learn from both sides of the Atlantic. Anyhow Professor, many thanks for your latest and fabulous learning video. As always, cheers to you!

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

To the T1 Trust: good luck finding a railroad to let you do 140mph on their track.

[@tiernanflynn]

They’re way ahead of you. They already have had a sponsor step up to pay a visit to the test track at Pueblo, Colorado.

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

@@tiernanflynn even then the locomotive won't have had a full service career (which even Mallard despite having been broken in the record taking run had) unless Amtrak becomes desperate enough for engines.

[@tiernanflynn]

@@robertbalazslorincz8218 Even if the locomotive is stuck to places like Strasburg (although, who knows), it will still serve to be a learning tool and something the public can enjoy

[@LoPhatKao]

or a well maintained railway that could take it

[@Hyce777]

The TTC in Pueblo would like to know your location. :)

[@georgepins9387]

Two aspects of these PRR claims have always bothered me, and don't get much comment. First is that, at the time, there were still many cars running with friction bearings. There are no hotbox anecdotes in the literature. Second is the timing at grade crossings. The circuits were not set up to handle these speeds, so there must have been instances of trains flying over grade crossings with the gates still up, if there were gates at all. Again, no stories of great collisions in the literature.

[@danielsacks7152]

My grandfather worked for the Pennsylvania back in the 30s and lived in Hanna IN. He got to steal a ride in the cab of a locomotive, although I'm not sure which type it was. He said that he told the engineer that the wandering motion of the locomotive at speed made him nervous. The engineer replied, "I get nervous when it stops, that means she's falling down between the rails!" Our farm was on the old Nickle Plate. There was a long downhill run right behind the house. I was told it was the hardest pulling grade on the Nickle Plate. It has a siding, and trains would have to start up it. Sometimes, they got stuck and needed assistance from pusher engines sent from Ft Wayne. One time, a long coal train with 6 Diesels tried to start a train and hit the sanders, dad heard a loud bang as they ripped a gondola car in half. Grandpa said, "Those old steam locomotives got quieter the faster they went and could sneak up on you real fast if you were on those tracks," especially on that downhill grade. There was a crossing at the bottom and one time when dad was about 5 in the early 50s he was sitting in the back of the car with Grandpa driving, he was very distracted and tired for some reason. as they crossed the tracks, dad said, "Gee, dad, that was close." Grandpa looked in the rear view mirror to see the locomotive that had just taken the bumper off his Chrysler imperial! Dad said he just pulled over and shook for awhile! I suspect he didn't look, and we were all so accustomed to hearing train whistles and horns at the crossings that it went unnoticed.

[@abyssminiaturestudios6103]

Another great video, didn't realize the S-1 was so dam big. Cheers Mark, Merry Christmas to you.

[@AllisonChainz3718]

I find it kind of funny that in the UK they went to the effort to prove which engine was the fastest, doing top speed runs with dyno cars and all that, meanwhile here in the states the attitude seems to be, "Oh you want to know how fast we can go? What's it to ya? We meet the schedule, what does it matter how fast we were going in order to make it? You tryin' to bust us for speeding or something, cause I ain't saying nothing." The result of this of course being the "official" record is from the UK, but there are a lot of anecdotes about trains in America going faster, some times much faster. It would make sense for an American engine to hold the record, being generally bigger and more powerful, and being aided by the fact that this country is a lot bigger and more recently urbanized than the UK, especially in the west, this lets locomotives have more time to get and keep speed. Yet in spite of all it has going for it, all America has are anecdotes and some speeding tickets, nothing as precise as a run with a dyno car like the Brits did. Now that is not to say the anecdotes should be completely disregarded, I for one am convinced by these stories and think that an engine like the S1 or T1 beat mallard, though to what extent is unknowable, as good as they may be, railroad clocks and mile posts are not as accurate as a dyno run, though not inaccurate enough, by my guess, to completely account for a nearly 25 MPH difference in speed.

[@henkmeerhof8647]

All is relative, the only reason mallard got into the books with bells and whistles, is the rivalry between those UK lines. Where the large locomotive in the states could do similar speeds or better, but didn't feel the need to brag about.

[@richardmycroft5336]

This all sounds to me (UK) like sour grapes. When jet engine powered cars go for the land speed record, incredibly exact measurements are taken. Any 'unofficial' numbers are ignored.

[@Vienna3080]

The S-1 is my favorite locomotive I’m glad it’s getting some recognition

[@user-dt5fb9em8d]

I hear the A.T.S.F. engines in the 3751 class 4-8-4 (heavy mountain) with 80 inch drivers were pretty quick also. My great grandfather who worked on the railroad said these passenger steam engines would routinely go 100mph +

[@englishtwister]

As a Brit, if we are talking unofficial speed records. I would like to say in the 1950s when British Rail was formed, engineers from former rival Great Western visited and worked on the North Eastern, and corrected the timing issue, or at least improved, on the A4's middle cylinder, so it did not overheat or overloaded as easily. But a story goes, that Mallard's older sibling Silver Fox broke the record going 130 mph, and its driver and fireman over drinks and blurted out what they did, as there was a secret between crews, not to speed or go over Mallard's record. And their bosses overheard this and fined them. So to me.. Mallard is not even the fastest A4...its older sister Silver Fox was quicker. But one is in preservation and the other is not. It may not be much but, this is my ten pence or fifteen cents on the matter.

[@timothyjoksch]

there are only three things i say to this topic: 1. Mallard got damaged during her run, 05 002 didn´t. 2. Mallard never run over 110 MPH again, 05 002 did run nine times over 110 mph, five times over 115 mph and twice over 120 mph. 3. im kinda hyped for the PRR 5550

[@aceproductions43]

Yeah though they could hit high speeds American locomotives did them more consistently than the British

[@Twiggystix4470]

C’mon Hyce, everyone knows that the fastest steam engine in the world is the LMS Jinty

[@CreeperOnYourHouse]

The Pontiac GTO is also limited by cast iron connecting rods, put in place to purposely prevent the Pontiac 440 from overshadowing its higher end counterparts.

[@shimesu443]

I just keep thinking about what I read somewhere once that stated that one of UP 844's older sisters was clocked at 123 mph during one run. Granted, I don't know all the specifics with the piston and back pressure and all that, but if an FEF could achieve that speed, when she wasn't really intended to go that fast, how fast could the S1, that WAS built for such speed, get up to? I figured that Mallard's record was smashed long ago, but since no one in the US was too bothered about it, Mallard still holds the official title. We'll probably never know for certain, so the Brits get to keep their bragging rights - for now at least.

[@ItzTrains_Productions]

The PRR was fined though for this stunt at 156 MPH. PRR 7002 might have gone 127.1mph as well. If only someone could find that. I hope T1 5550 will beat mallards record that will be nice.

[@alansloan7784]

Thanks, Hyce, for this informative---and entertaining---post. While we don't have 'official' proof that the S1 outran the Mallard, the anecdotal evidence suggests that it did....I like to believe it did, anyway....😉 Merry Christmas!

[@NWRGreen5Productions]

We need a group to make a replica of the s1, then have it race Mallard

[@CurtisFerrington]

I wish you could have met and talked with Jack Elwood, sadly he passed away in 2020 at 100 years old. He spent 43 years working for AT&SF. He could remember a particular late-night run in 1945 where he was in the left-hand seat of a 2900 class 4-8-4. Still factory fresh and all-roller bearings. The engineer didn't want to be out on the road any longer than necessary, so he gave Jack fair warning and inched out the throttle. Jack remembered the engine bouncing and shaking to the point he wrapped an arm around the firing quadrant in fear of being thrown from the cab. Using his watch and counting telephone poles, which were put a standard distance apart, his best estimate was 140 mph +/- 5 mph.

[@Hyce777]

Holy shit. Those machines are the real deal. I'm envious of the conversation you got to have. Hopefully see you in a few months, Curtis! ;)

[@CurtisFerrington]

@@Hyce777 Looking forward to chatting with you! The 2900s were definitely not built for that kind of speed. About 600 RPM. Only the main drivers (Axle No.2) and the tandem pair directly behind them (Axle No.3) were cross-counterbalanced, the other driver sets (Axle No.1 & No.4) were only counterbalanced per AT&SF standard practice. They would have been balanced for a max of maybe 100mph (420 rpm). Hence why it was trying to shake itself apart and throw the crew out the windows. One failed lubricator line to the cylinders or crosshead and all hell would have broken loose. The Pennsy S1s and T1s were higher-quality machines with all driver sets cross-counterbalanced for running well over 120 mph. I completely agree with your assessment that the S1s probably had the potential to be the fastest and that the #5550 may one day hold the world record.

[@pepsidoggo1598]

Another locomotive I'd like to point towards being a contender for the speed record would be the Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha streamlines. Specifically, the F-7s. They had the same driver diameter as the Pennsy S1 (84 inches), a 300 psi boiler, and 23.5" x 30" pistons which made them capable of their DESIGNED service speed of 120. With a service speed THAT high (in contrast with the LNER Class A4's 90 mph service speed) I don't doubt that at some point they very well may have surpassed that 126 MPH mark! Of course, this is entirely just speculation. Loved the video anyhow! P.S: Did you have trouble finding PRR Heavywights? The Amfleets behind the S1 is... jarring

[@Hyce777]

It was the consist I had setup... Lol! I don't play TS enough anymore.

[@MegaZsolti]

The NEC would be straight enough for the T1's run if it was allowed. Also, if the S1 did hit 156 mph, the engines had to be running at least 620 rpm (per crude calc). Which is fast.

[@Hyce777]

That feels just too fast to me, imo. 500+ rpm is already getting ridiculous haha

[@MegaZsolti]

@@Hyce777 This is probably why the T1s were always so worn out.

[@biddinge8898]

Mallard is the only one officially recorded. Hopefully the PRR trust can officially get a 140mph. Because it definitely has a chance.

[@Jojokun78]

There is another potential for the American locos, the New York Central J class. 4-6-4 Whyte arrangement. I've seen some books and former drivers claim them capable of 130+, either way it's just a cool thought to have, to enjoy talking about these various locos and their stories so they're never forgotten.

[@ostlandr]

It's claimed that NYC&HRR's #999, the customized 4-4-0 express locomotive for the Empire State Express, hit 112.5 mph on May 10th 1893- 45 years before Mallard's run. This was calculated with a stopwatch and telegraph poles (which were a fixed distance apart.) IIRC the reporter did multiple timings to average out any possible errors in pole spacing or his reflexes. The old rule of thumb was that driver diameter = maximum speed. Towards the end of steam, the rule of thumb ws 1.25 x driver diameter = max speed. With either her 86.5" drivers or the 350 RPM rule, that would have given her a top speed of ~90 mph. The 125% rule would give her a 109 mph top speed, so pretty close. 112.5 mph would have requred exactly 437 RPM. And she has tiny 15" diameter pistons. For reference, that's the VALVE diameter on a N&W class Y-1. (The Y-2 and Y-2As had 14" HP valves and 17" LP valves.) So, 112.5 mph on a downgrade (Mallard was runninig down Stoke Bank) was, to steal a line from Hunt for Red October, "180 kilometers per hour possible, but not recommended." FYI if you go visit her at the Chicago Museum of Transportation & Industry, she sits on the 70" drivers she was refitted with in 1899. So long as she stayed on the NYC's "water level route" between Syracuse and Buffalo, she did fine. But on other parts of the line, those tall drivers were a liability. So she was refitted with the same 70" drivers as the rest of her class. If she was balanced for the above RPM, she could have still hit 90 mph. Interesting that you could get from NYC to Buffalo or Chicago by rail faster in 1899 than today. On stick rail, with manually operated signals, and having to make fuel and water stops. To be fair, the NYC "water level route" used to be a four-track main. The outside tracks had lower superelevation for freight traffic. The center tracks were dedicated passenger tracks, with more steeply banked curves that would "stringline" a drag freight. That was an engineer's dream to run fast on, with the exception of a few relatively tight curved sections. Also, the NYC used "track pans" between the rails to refill tenders without stopping. Since as a general rule a locomotive had to stop twice as often for water as for fuel, this was a major advantage. At the beginning of the pan, the fireman would drop the water scoop on the tender, then raise it when the tender was full or before the end of the pan. The first time they tested the idea, they discovered that the tenders needed generous venting to be filled this quickly. This was indicated by the fact that, in the first test, the tender exploded. 🙂

[@nostalgiccameralife]

It's pretty well known that 999's record run was fabricated for the press.

[@NW-gi1cp]

Prr 5550: hold my beer

[@awildjared1396]

As a freight enjoyer, I just like heavy trains the length of new jersey pulled by steam, as long as its actually going somewhere that'll take longer than assembling the consist.

[@cfdj43]

The plaque describing the record (literally next to Mallard) in the National Railway Museum in York even caveats the record, noting the section of track used was recorded as flat at the time, but was later found to have a slight downhill gradient.

[@nostalgiccarlife5419]

So what's the story on the claimed fines? Because I'd love to know anything about that. I mean actually know, not just repeat rumors and myth. The ICC didn't institute the 79mph speed limit on passenger trains until 1947 (after the 1946 Advance Flyer tragedy) by which time the S1 was no longer in service. So who issued the fine? Is there *actually* any record of it? Where's the proof? If the fine was real, then we should know what day this happened on, etc. But nobody seems to know.

[@Hyce777]

I've always heard it's locked away in an archive somewhere which is... not great evidence.

[@gianstyle7131]

Its neither it was 346 heading down Kenosha Pass

[@tjmfarming9584]

Grab the popcorn 🍿 this’ll be fun. Hot take: if we’re talking Gauge both in track and loading, Mallard is the fastest Standard gauge on the UK scale. But the fastest Broad Gauge Steam locomotive probably was VR S301 Sir Thomas Mitchell on the inaugural run of the Spirit of Progress. Sadly that engine was scrapped in the 50’s. In terms of ‘Murica, I wouldn’t be surprised if the S1, Streamlined K4, T1 or the NYC Hudson would be the fastest steamer. As for narrow gauge… nothing from the DRGW can top the might of the WAGR S or W class. While it’s not certain how fast they could go, definitely was faster than 65km/h

[@trentongray1818]

I once read a paper about a T1 that ran out of Union Station in my hometown of Crestline OH where the T1s began their run to Chicago. I don't remember what paper it was but the claim was she ran in excess of 130mph between Bucyrus and Lima. And again in excess of 140mph between Lima and Fort Wayne. I still remember the PRR Roundhouse with the long bungalow off the one end where the T1s were serviced before it was demolished a few years ago. It's cool to know the town I've grown up in for 23 years was one of the main hubs on their system.

[@3900Class]

ATSF 3463. 84 inch drivers. Restore. Run on mainline to Pueblo. Go Fast. Dump tea in harbor. Build PRR 5550. Pueblo. Go Faster. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@3900Class]

Foamer dreams? yes 😅😅

[@Hyce777]

Sold

[@modelrailwaybackshop]

THANK YOU MARK!!! You just proved the point of Time Zones being invented in the USA!!!!

[@LoPhatKao]

by a Canadian

[@IstasPumaNevada]

@@LoPhatKao Technically speaking, all human achievements in history are by Africans. :)

[@DiamondbackTerrapins]

All I know is everyone needs to donate to the T1 Trust! Let’s increase the speed of it being built haha.

[@bhrailroadhistory1509]

not a mention on the new york central hudsons, they clamed to go over 125 but who knows lol awesome video hyce and hope to watch more of your amazing videos

[@WhiteStar1222]

All the speed. Also I think another thing is that mallard survives while the S1 is lost idk but that’s just me

[@brillbusbootcamp2320]

Mallard got towed back after it broke on its record attempt. The S1 finished its trip uneventfully, until the regulatory bodies wrote it a speeding ticket!

[@WhiteStar1222]

@@brillbusbootcamp2320 true frogot about that part

[@TheInternationalHarvesterMan]

*Laughs in Milwaukee Road F7*

[@usn1861]

Between Valparaiso and Govertown Indiana the PRR was perfectly flat and tangential. Many locomotives have obtained speed claims here, including the N&W J, which reportedly hit a critical resonance frequency in her suspension and was backed off after settling down by her firebox end at 121 mph with a 18 car company train. At Govertown, the line is still tangential, but encounters the steepest grade on the line west of Alleghenies peaking out at Donaldson.

[@theimaginationstation1899]

A nice discussion. Thank you.

[@frederickschulkind8431]

Pennsy 7002 was credited with 127+ MPH in 1905. That also depends on surveys and watches. The version in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg is an alteration of a similar locomotive.

[@richardharrold9736]

Bullshit. Not even remotely possible.

[@JonatanGronoset]

Oh dear, will this spark the age old "limey vs burgerman" foamer arguments yet _again?_ 😂 I hold to my standard that any speed record *_must_* be on level ground or uphill, at no point must gravity or any other outside factor be allowed to assist. Dynamometer car or not, Mallards record is imo illegitimate because of the variable of going downhill, no matter how slight.

[@paulleow8017]

Yeah, the downhill thing is sorta of a big issue with the record, that and the fact that mallard did need some repairs afterwards

[@VinnyMartello]

Fascinating. Having the reverser mess with the valve gear is kind of like adding timing to your ignition. It’s to get you to the top end.

[@danielmkubacki]

What a cool video Hyce!

[@walterjohnson7254]

999 had 86in drivers hehehehehhe

[@JanTonovski]

Would some DRG engines also have been capable of getting to those speeds?

[@-slasht]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_05

[@LarsPW]

German steam locomotive 05 002 ran 200,4 km/h (= 124 mph) in 1936 between Hamburg and Berlin towing four coaches with ca. 200 t (metric). In 1903 the first three phase AC driven railcar reached 209 km/h (= 129,9 mph), provided via a three pole headline over the line between Marienfelde - Zossen near Berlin, Germany.

[@rock4016]

Dude, really awesome GTO!